Are F/O's actually getting ahead financially at Emirates?

[medflyer]

I am a narrow-body F/O flying for a good company in the western world; if the bottom doesn't fall out I figure I am about 2 years from an upgrade. I have been researching Emirates as a possible alternative with the goal being to go to a tax free environment for 7-10 years and actually save some money versus paying over 40% in taxes here. Widebody flying appeals of course, but is not the main reason.

A bit concerned about the Dubai driving and the intense heat, but the wife and I are up for a bit of adventure, change of scenery etc. and are curious if new joiners are actually able to get ahead with the tax free salary and housing expenses package. I have read the Emirates threads and used the search; just looking for any updated info.

Thanks in advance. PM if you prefer.

-Med

[atiuta]

Good question but there are just too many variables that vary from individual to individual.

How old you are, current financial situation, realistic long term plans etc

I will say however that 7-10 years is probably not a realistic tenure in any expat job and never really was. Most people will need something else after that and you're signed up to the contract game from then on.

Expect a command time of 5-6 years for new hires, yes an FO can save but given your time frame, $$$'s will only pick up for you about the time you're dialling the removal company.

Change your game plan or maybe your situation is different.

[BigGeordie]

It is very hard to generalise because a lot depends on your personal circumstances. If you are single you can easily save. Same if you are married with no children and your wife is working. If you have children and a stay at home spouse it will be very difficult unless Pizza Hut is your idea of a good night out. Don't even think about moving out of the company accommodation.

[fatbus]

Driving is just nuts here plain and simple, but where we live and my kids go to school my wife can avoid SZR and some of the other krazy roads. That being said she some times feels house bound because of the assholes on the roads and the danger they pose.

I would want to know where my villa was going to be before coming and where my kids where going to be going to school before coming.

Money is not bad not great but after set up costs you can start to save.The amount you save varies because everyone converts the amount to their home $ . A pilot from the US may need less than a pilot from the UK in order to retire.

Guys that have taken the housing allowance bitch alot because they might feel the DXB inflation more that those that are still in company housing.

[kingpost]

Two very good replies.

If it's just you and your wife your 6-10 year plan MIGHT work if you get a command in 3 years but I doubt that will happen. There are guys on the 777, and last year on the A330, who are being by past whilst EK recruits DEC's.

If you make the move plan on a 20 year duration in order to walk away with some money, it won't be much more than what you're going to get where you're presently employed. But who knows what's going to happen in the future around the world, now is not the time to be jumping ship if it's still floating, if it's going down that's a different game altogether.

Good luck

[medflyer]

Thanks for the replies guys.

At 36 with two little ones at home I think getting the upgrade here in a couple of years presents the best alternatives should things 'start sinking'!

[EK Snorkel]

Meanwhile they still take DECs


I really don't know what EK sees in these DEC's ...

While there are some ok guys most DEC's are not..... they do not follow EK SOP, don,t embrace the company culture and worse; often lack experience :\

Now what is so wonderful about these guys?

[kingoftheslipstream]

medflyer

At 36 with two little ones you are in no danger of saving any money here in DXB. No way jose! Forget about it.

However, an even worse fly in the ointment is where you will be forced to live. Currently there are no suitable accomodations available for families and they are living in apartments, after being promised villas (iaw contractual entitlement).

The company tells you you'll get a place, then when you arrive they soft shoe a little and tell you it's an apartment for a coupla weeks, then by day two of your induction somebody drops the word that its a couple months and by day 3 in the company your lookin' a year!

There's no pool, no play area... it's a friggin' nightmare and everbody is lyin'.

A buddy of mine upgraded earlier this year and is still waitin' fer an offer of a villa iaw his contract - it's pathetic!

[mensaboy]

Med,
You are correct and wise to be concerned about driving in Dubai. There are things you can do to mitigate that peril though. (big vehicle, defensive driving attitude, and less time on the roads)

As mentioned above, accomodation is an issue. If you get the short end of the stick, you have 2 options. Option 1 is accepting your fate, but since you have a wife and kids, that is not really an option. Option 2, is to be persistent and willing to quit if the company will not supply what they promised.

The tax free thing is definitely a huge bonus. This perk is continually being eroded though. For example Salik tolls on the roads , the VAT and the 'hinted at' capital gains tax.

The intense heat, at least for me, is not an issue. The weather here is great in my opinion. As an EK pilot, you would have access to some superb facilities. It is true though, that summer can be a bit of a 'camp-out' in your accomodation, but that is offset by the large number of lunatic drivers who vacate Dubai for milder climates. The lack of greenery and nature has been more of an adjustment for some people.

The most important question you have to ask is this...... ''Will my wife be happy in Dubai?'' Her happiness or unhappiness will affect you and your kids more than all the other factors combined.

If you are planning 10 years, I would wager a bet that you will be better off financially than if you stay where you are. (assuming you are not presently foreseeing your financial security) You certainly will not benefit in the first few years though. You also must consider that upgrades are already being slowed, so predicting the future is futile.

To sum up; you have a tough decision. If you were on the verge of redundancy, then I would say get your ass over here, pronto! If you are 2 years from upgrade and your company still seems viable in these troubled times, then it is a much tougher choice.

I believe happiness does not come from a bigger NET income, or a wide body jet. Job security can play a factor though. At least for now, job security at EK is a major bonus. I can guarantee you, YOUR happiness will be in direct correlation to the happiness of your family. Consider what is best for them and I think you will reach the right conclusion.

Best of luck!

[ironbutt57]

Have to agree with the above, anywhere in the gulf, if mum isn't happy then you wont be either:ok:

The biggest mistake I have seen here, is folks becoming so focused on "stash the cash", they forget to have a life..which always catches up with you in the end doesn't it..there's a happy medium there somewhere..

[L1011]

The view from another perspective:

Dubai dreams fade away
Dubai, the city paved with gold, where many expatriate workers have made their golden dreams come true through long years of hard work, is fast losing its allure. On the contrary, it is fast becoming a nightmare. It has been an ever popular destination for the desperately jobless Asian workers, past and present, for over three decades. But today that dream is slowly being shattered like soap bubbles exposed to the hot desert air, as the authorities place heavier burdens on the working populace.

Trouble began when Dubai Municipality introduced a law that only one family could live in a villa. Thousands of workers share bed space in villas in order to save a substantial amount of their earning which they could remit back home. With the new rule already in effect, where the landlord could be fined up to 50,000.00 Dhirams for sheltering more than one family, many have been evicted and are scrambling to neighbouring emirates where rents are cheaper and travelling becomes much lengthier and costlier. Many who have children and shared villas with other families are getting back to their country as they cannot cope with the cost of education for their kids. It is expected that this rule will shortly extend to all those sharing apartments too, triggering an exodus of people who will be out on the road without shelter, becoming temporary nomads.
The lucky ones are those given accommodation by their employers, such as the airline companies and hotels.
Authorities here seem to be in a hurry to fill the thousands of gleaming new flats now available at an exorbitant price! The expatriate workers do not have and do not want to part with such sums of hard earned money for rents as they will not be able to save any money.
The nightmare continues in other areas as getting to work on time is increasingly frustrating with a pathetic public transport system and a thick-skinned taxi service! The roads are clogged with more and more vehicles as new toll systems at several major bridges are also creating confusion and an additional dent in the purse. It is imperative that you live close to your office and your children attend a nearby school to avoid a daily dose of exasperation and expenditure.
With the cost of living rising steadily and rumours of a tax on your pay packet coming soon, the golden era the workers enjoyed is fast fading away. Many have decided to call it quits and go home, even if it means going back to nothing.
Take heed, if you are preparing to come on an employment visa, make sure your employer provides you with accommodation or else you are in for your initial jolt on an exasperating bumpy journey to realizing your dreams.
Amarnath Paul

If even the maids can't make it here, you have to wonder where we are headed
Medflyer - if you have a stable job and are happy in your country, I'd say stay there. This is not the time to seek an 'adventure' in the Gulf.

[ShinjukuHustler]

My Buddy moved to EK last year from one of the EU based LoCo's. He got sick of the rain and the taxes and lured by the opportunity of the shiny new hardware he took a bite a moved. 1 year on he's reasonably happy, enjoys the life and the salary and although not keen on his accomodation it's fine for him as a single guy.

The point he makes is this, soon as it's time to settle down he reckons he'll up stakes and move back home. The lustre seems well tarnished but if your goal is to bank some cash then it can be done but seems only if you don't have any baggage.

SH

[Sand dune Sam]

If your coming close to command..ie, next 2 maybe 3 years in your own country that would be the best course. Command on a narrow body is far better than another 5 to 7 years in the right seat of a widebody.

[southflyer]

Ahhhh..... rationalization is a wonderful thing...

[sisyphos]

I really don't see the advantage for anybody from a western medium quality airline up to apply.

climate : terrible most of the year

traffic : grueling, life threatening simply

labor union : none

culture : big malls and even bigger cars. great.

inflation : double digits

management : unreliable, no job protection laws whatsoever

seniority list : worthless, since most won't stay anyway the whole career

housing : erratic, no guarantees regarding where you end up. are you guys really willed to gamble on the place your families has to live ??

flight time limitations, overtime etc : as they please, general hours above average

currency: US$. well...



plus you loose your friends at home, don't see your wider family anymore, internet/movies/media are restricted, religious issues, middle-age conservative mindset among the locals, high school fees, common law is sharia,language barriers,role of women in islamic countries,etc etc., the list is endless.

I can see the incentive of an early command on a wide body, but nobody cares for that when in a few years you leave, eventually you are going to end up at the bottom of a seniority list again! Or are you all planning on becoming a contractor?

you always hear the argument of a criminal-less society. I believe this is a myth in the first place but anyway, the risk of dying on sheik zaheed road is probably a hundred times higher than becoming a fatal victim of a crime in the western world.


why are you going there ??? I don't get it..
(sorry for pasting this from another thread)

[mensaboy]

Snam,

ERP is based upon the value of your home currency. In other words, if your home currency devalues or stays the same in comparison to the USD (after you join), then you receive nothing. If your currency increases in value, then you receive protection on 50% of your salary.

They use a rolling average, so in order to continue to receive ERP, your home currency must continue to increase in value as compared to the USD.

It is also capped at 7.5% of your Basic Salary. (based upon 15% of your Basic Salary, but only 1/2 of that because only 1/2 of your salary is protected)

In other words, if your currency rises dramatically over time and your Basic Salary is say, 20,000DHS, then you would get 1500DhS each month from ERP.

If I have any of these figures wrong, forgive me because I am too lazy to look it up.

[Mister Warning]

When I came here as a single FO, I was getting alot ahead.
Now, alas, married the best of the above and not so much ahead anymore... ;)

[BYMONEK]

Sad fact of life i'm afraid Mister. Once you get married, you never get as much head as when you are single! :E

[Constant Speed DU]

Yup, I'll second that!

[WangFunk]

You need head to get ahead:}

[allaru]

To make it simple as a single FO yes you can save, not a problem at all, married however you will just survive. Slalak taking kids to school, school activities, sports, cable TV, Internet, Wifes telephone, entertainment movies ext ext . As an FO your salary is about half that of most other western expats, and is about the same as an office or small shop manager.

Also depends on where your from if your a westerner, there will basically be no one else in that lower wage bracket. If your from Egypt, Lebanon, Malaysia and the like you'll be on about par with your peirs working in semi skilled/semi professional management positions.

They are the facts, like it or lump it. And yes out side of Emirates wages very much depend on nationality, get use to that as well..

[arcticspud1]

To make it simple as a single FO yes you can save, not a problem at all, married however you will just survive. Slalak taking kids to school, school activities, sports, cable TV, Internet, Wifes telephone, entertainment movies ext ext . As an FO your salary is about half that of most other western expats, and is about the same as an office or small shop manager.

Also depends on where your from if your a westerner, there will basically be no one else in that lower wage bracket. If your from Egypt, Lebanon, Malaysia and the like you'll be on about par with your peirs working in semi skilled/semi professional management positions.

They are the facts, like it or lump it. And yes out side of Emirates wages very much depend on nationality, get use to that as well..


All the above items cost 6-9000US per month?

[White Knight]

21000dhms is not more than 6000$US mr articspud.. Rate is 3.68 dhms to 1US$...

And no it doesn't cost all that... Some people just can't budget very well:rolleyes:

[arcticspud1]

Thanks,

I was assuming some flight pay, which I shouldn't do. The numbers just were not adding up to me.

thanks again.

[sanddude]

Mate,

If you can not survive on 7500 $us DISPOSABLE INCOME (basic,flightpay,erp) exc your bonus and provident fund, you have a big budget problem:eek:. The problem might be your wife:E, go check her out. If you rent your own place and the kids go to repton then its a different story:uhoh:

[allaru]

From your $7100USD you will have deducted by EK
telephone
medical (and you thought it was free)
provident fund (now ain't that a winner now)
car loan (most take it)
tickets (ID 90s ext your an expat now expect to travel frequently)
fines (missed appointments at clinik)

some expenses you may not have thought of.
maid (philippina min wage 1400 + 600 gov charges = 2000 and because of time constraints traffic ext will be difficult to do without that doesnt include her tickets home ev 2 years)

Salik (up to 500 a month depending on where you live)

Car insurance (400-500 per month 4- 5% on 100000dhs car, yes your paying for the locals bad driving, but you may qualify for a reduced rate after a few years, many pilots have two cars)

Telephones (landline, yr modile, wifes mobile min 500- 1000 etisalat is a monopoly and its expensive. No skype unless u set up a vpn, and then skype can be a bit iffy at times.)

Internet 250dhs (see above)

Cable TV 250dhs/month (no alternative)

Activities for kids ( can be expensive, examples swimming 400 per term, tennis 90dhs per lesson, piano 145-200dhs per lesson, unless of course you want to leave your kids at home. There are no public swimming pools, tennis courts and the like, free this or that)

Leave (expect to spend alot of money even if you stay with your parents)

Wifes summer escape (yes most will pi#@ off for the summer)

Thats about 5k in pretty well fixed expenses, and that doesnt include social stuff, and the above deductions, plus a mortgage back home that you might have, bla bla bla.

Like most pilots I am a tight ass but even so, unless you want you and your family to live like a hermit, I can assure you that you will struggle as a new FO if you have a family.

Best thing is to talk to someone who has been there a while, and is in the same domestic situation.

If you are married with kids don't
1. listen to single guys they have no idea,
2. listen to guys with wives that are working, as they usually earn more than they do.
3. Guys who have been there for less than a couple of years.
4. Don't compare what it cost where you are now, to Dubai it can't be done. Dubai is an expensive place to live now.
5.You wont make money out of allowances at EK
6. Don't expect overtime as an FO, usually FOs dont get it.
7. Don't count on a bonus next year,( unless you havnt been watching the news lately)
8. Don't justify your decisions based on this post or any others on pprune.

Do your research, ask as many people as you can, and try and include friends you may have in other industries to see what sort of a deal they're getting.

[Alvord]

allaru,
I appreciate your insight on bills in Dubai, but what is Salik and what is the cost per month usually involving medical for family? You said that it was not free. Thanks for the info.
alvord

[Jet II]

'Salik' are road tolls. At present only on Sheik Zyed Road but expected to become more widespread.

Medical is free for you and around 170 AED a month for your wife and around 70 AED for each child.

[White Knight]

Allaru - I been here a while, with a large family....

If your missus is spending that much on phone calls I'd have a word with her:ugh:

Missed appointments at the clinic?? Your fault entirely - no sympathy:ugh:

Maid?? Well, I don't want my kids growing up speaking Tagalog:}

Activities for kids?? Mine do rugby and cricket after school - no charge. Save the tennis lessons 'til when you're a captain:ok:

Provident fund?? Oh yeah - they tell you about that before you join. Remember that the value of your investments may go down as well as up - it's the stock market innit mate:ugh::ugh:

Car insurance - Nissan Patrol (not new- why would I waste money on an item that devalues faster than anything else ever made) at 1100dhms PER YEAR COMPREHENSIVE.

Leave - don't stay in a hotel, get a holiday home - and you won't have to put up with all the drunken idiots hogging the sunloungers by the pool..

Internet - DU's is around 100 per month. (I think)

Allowances aren't for making money - thou must eat, drink and make merry with that:ok:

Medical benefits are excellent for the measly 400 odd dhms I pay each month - you won't get such a good deal at BUPA. I know 'cos I used to have BUPA coverage with my last outfit..

Hope that helps chaps:E:E

[Jet II]

allaru - as your wife is spending so much time on the phone I fail to see why you are paying for missed appointments at the clinic - there is a 24 hour phone number for cancellations. :confused:

[sanddude]

allura,

The only thing different in your picture compared with back home is the cost of the maid. So what are you trying to say? You don,t do holidays back home? The wife doesn,t have a phone over there.

by the way as I said check out the wife( 1000dhs on the mobile:eek:), would also check your car insurance( mine new 120.000 aed with 2500aed premium, its about 60% cheaper then europe)
I have probaly spend more time in the pit then you, otherwise you would have now.:rolleyes:

There is a lotof stuff to complain about over here but lets keep it real:ok:

[mensaboy]

Not quite Snam,

I will refer to the USD as if it were the dirham, since their values are pegged (3.65DHS= 1USD). If the USD increases in value compared to other currencies, then the dirham does the same.

If the USD declines, then you are receiving less income in your home currency so you get ERP. (since we are paid in dirhams, which are in essence USDs) If the USD increases, then you are receiving more money in terms of your home currency, therefore no ERP.

[ibelieveicanfly]

if you stay too long in a temp 2 bedroom appartment with your family,then it is a crisis,wife and kids back home where you have to pay the whole stuff and and and..