Manchester Ground Congestion

[jonboy38]

Have had the misfortune to fly into and out of Manchester a couple of times in the last few weeks. Each time both runways were in operation which seemed to work well but the increased capacity in the air does not appear to be matched by any increase in the support services available. Each time we were parked on a remote stand. Only one bus was allocated to carry passengers to/from the aircraft and with all the aircraft movements on the ramp this meant it took 40 minutes to board 160 pax. Likewise agents, cleaners, caterers, engineers etc found access to the aircraft difficult. Water/toilet servicing appears to be overstretched and there are not enough tugs to go around. Near to us a 350 seat aircraft was being disembarked also with just the one bus. Even the public roads in the area were gridlocked last night as passengers tried to get into and out of the terminals. Then to cap it all I saw from my Hotel that half of the staff car park was blocked off for some sort of construction to start. Surely this will lead to increased journey times to work for crews from a remote car park and then difficult access to aircraft on remote stands where they will be frutrated by lack of support services and slow pax boarding and oops there goes the slot! 5 years ago, Manchester boasted that it was the 'Worlds Favourite Airport', If it doesn't get it's act together sharpish it will find passengers using Manchester only as a last resort.

[A and C]

Finningley your time has come !

[betty swallocks]

No! no! Liverpool your time has come!

[qrh]

Things are at breaking point in my opinion - I too witnessed the A330 having to disembark using one bus - and that flight was an on-schedule flight!

Things are now even worse as the movement rate reflects twin runway use, but due to inadequacies with airfield lighting, whenever the wx reaches 2000m and/or 700ft, the airport reverts to single runway ops Outcome =

CHAOS!

Combine that with the policy of moving staff car parking further and further away, inadequate numbers of car spaces, being denied access to aircraft via the fastlane, no dedicated staff channel inbound and an airside road system that guarantees late tugs, I challenge ANY airport manager from MAN to claim that they are anywhere near the best airport in the world!!!!!

[BusyB]

Why they haven't built a taxiway behind the hangers to join the November taxiway I can't understand. I would have thought it would be more use than a second runway!!

[Max Angle]

Single runways/low vis ops seems to have been very poorly thought out at MAN. It says in the briefing document that came round before the runway opened that during low vis the airport will revert to single runway ops. Fair enough I suppose for the moment but will need to be sorted for the future. It goes on to say that due to interaction of new SID's and STAR's that the capacity of the single runway (24R/06L) will be less than it was before so expect delays. This is quite pathetic. How can you spend hundreds of millions on a new runway and end up with less capacity in low vis. than you had before. It is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

[foghorn]

I'm with A and C - get Finningley open pronto then I can move back to the People's Republic of Flat Caps and Whippets and get rid of this poncy southern accent I have :)

[Positive Climb]

The re-location of the T1/3 staff car park is an on-going saga for those of us who currently use it. For those not familiar with MAN, the current car park is adjacent to the T1 long-stay passenger car park and via a gate in the fence, allows a 3-5 minute walk to T3. The Airport Authority announced a couple of months ago that this car park would be closed and all staff members asked to use Staff West adjacent to T2. We would then be bussed across to T1/3 - a journey which can take between 10 and 20 mins. depending on traffic. This proposed move has been postponed until the Authority have implemented a more regular bus service with more capacity and the car-park itself has been 'furnished' with suitable shelters and walkways as it currently does not comply with Health and Safety requirements.

I don't wish to seem narrow-minded and I appreciate all developing airports are short of space but I would like to make one observation:

It is rumoured that the current staff car-park will be leased by 'Premier Parking' (who are obviously going to pay a mint for it). As airport staff we use the car-park on a daily basis whereas passengers often leave their cars for upto two weeks. Why on earth can't Premier Parking be given space in Staff West instead ? This proposed re-location will have a detrimental impact on the quality of life of hundreds of airport workers, whilst it would make little difference to someone leaving their car whilst they are on holiday.
As an example, several weeks ago the airport police were called to a fight on a bus in the Staff West car park. Alledgedly, it involved security staff who had arrived at the car park to catch a particular bus, which they were then turned away from because it was full. Catching the next bus would have made them late for work and these guys have some sort of punctuality clause in their contracts which 'fines' them for not reporting on time.

In essence, the Manchester Airport Authority has given the v's to the very people who keep their operation runnning and ensure the money continues to roll into their coffers.

High horse dismounted !!!

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"After V1, we'll take the emergency into the air - You call 'Positive Climb' and I'll ask for the gear up. We'll climb away at V2 +15"

[This message has been edited by Positive Climb (edited 17 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Positive Climb (edited 17 May 2001).]

[411A]

MAN has excellect rail service, why can't STAFF take the train?

[kaikohe76]

In my humble opinion Manchester is not designed and run for the benefit of either the passengers or airport and other operators staff. These groups appear to be considered almost a nuisance to the airport's smooth day to day running.
Why did the Airport authority not go for a dedicated multi storey car park for staff only, when the new T3 was in the process of being built? By now we could have had a single staff car park of 4,5,6etc levels, this would have saved ground area as well. Also the thought of a proper single dedicated channel for crew / staff only both outbound and inbound, I suppose is
a stupid idea!!
On a more operational note, I do agree, the two new runways appear to work well in tandem. The fun and games only starts when trying to navigate between them and the terminal.

[qrh]

411a

Please take a reality pill as soon as possible as you are about to go into deep space orbit - you have already left this planets atmosphere.

How in gods name do you take the train to MAN airport when you work for a charter airline that operates 24hrs? Answer- YOU CANT!

Get the airport to provide 24hr coverage, otherwise its a pointless exercise. At recent meetings, the airport managements utter lack of comprehension of how flight crew work has utterly flabberghasted me.

[Onan]

I departed MAN aboard AC840 enroute to Toronto via Glasgow, yesterday Wednesday 16, May. My 0900 flight departure was, originaly, delayed for 10 minutes due to late arrival of inbound equipment. we finally left the gate forty minutes late due to lack of airport staff. Excuse being that due to the number Liverpool soccer club fans flying from Manchester to various German airports for the big game, MAN was experiencing an unusual spike in traffic and the facilities were stretched. It could be true, for while at the airport I did notice a lot of people wearing their teams colours. Apparently Liverpool had a similar problem due to their soccer fan passengers.

We held off the new runway waiting for incoming aircraft to clear and eventually was airborne at 1010 for our thirty six minute flight to GLA.

[The slug man]

Not for the record, But plans for the day only called for 10 coaches to be used on the day the final was. Having said that they only have 10 buses anyway, Summers just around the corner, arn't we the lucky ones.

[zfw]

As for those who are not familiar with.."The Worlds Favorite Airport"..may gather from this thread,Manchester Airport is good at spin,but seems to be run and planned by somebody from Trumpton{a 1960s puppet show}.
No thought whatsoever has gone into forward planning,8 widebodies on term 2 and all 15 stands are occupied,taxiways that will struggle with anything bigger than a B747/400 in the wingspan department{the tips already hang over the road system}and if the new A340/600 arrives that would be interesting to see where it will park.
The day to day running beggars belief and as people here have pointed out seems to get by,by just b****hitting its way through.
The attitude towards airport staff and crew is stuff them the profits..ooops i mean passengers comes first.
Ths staff certainly are not proud to work here,and where it used to be a boast that you worked at the airport...its now more of a mutter into your half a pint.
The point is they do not really care at all as long as there global empire is taking off,and theyre racking in lots of cash.
But a small suggestion to the PLC would be ...to look after your assets{staff}and theyll look after you.

So do us a favour chaps....get your own house in order before you go and cock up ,East Mids And Bournemouth.

Mornin Slugman

[chequesicks]

411a
I live 15 miles from MAN. Even if the trains ran H24, which they don't, and even if they didn't crash with alarming regularity, which they do, it would still be quicker for me to WALK to work than to drive to my local train station, catch a train from there to Manchester Picadilly, wait for a change, take the 40 minute train journey to MAN, and then walk half a mile down that stupid skytube thing with the permanently unserviceable travellators.
That, my friend, is why I don't let the train take the strain. And I believe that I speak for a fair majority.
Public transport is a lovely pinko-commie ideal that just doesn't work in the modern western world, unless you throw trillions of ££££s at it.

[mallard]

Funnily enough it does work - for some.
I have a colleague who comes to work by train and it is a 24 hour operation. In fact he does not run a car.
But then he does live in the city centre, about five minutes from Piccadilly Station.
It wouldn't be cheap or practical to do it often but in extremis (no car available) I have been known to get home by train and taxy.
The construction work going on in the station staff carpark is apparently for an extension of the Metro. That will be another way of getting to work for anyone lucky enough to be on the route.

[speke2me]

Onan

You are misinformed re Liverpool and football flights. There were 15 out and only one delay , the Corsair 74 which was late in from Paris. On the homebound flights there were some delays due to German airports not managing as well. MAN only had 5 Liverpool football flights and it seems couldn't cope, you think with United they would have.

Next season perhaps its more reliable for United football charters to leave from LPL.

[Onan]

Chequesicks

Here in the not so "pinko-commie" bastion of capitalism which is North America, every one of our major cities have public transit systems that are run very efficiently. I live in a suburb about 30k outside of Toronto and can take a local bus to the GO (Government of Ontario) Transit station for my commuter ride in to Union Station then transfer to a TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) subway, streetcar, bus or ferry with just the one ticket.

I remember when (pre Thatcher) every community in Britain had a similar reliable public transit system, now it's distincly third world.

[Onan]

Speke2me

sorry about the misinformation regarding Liverpool Airports soccer charter traffic to Germany. Don't understand about reference to United though. Is it a reference to UAL or is that another Liverpool soccer club?

[G-BPEC]

I believe STM is talking about that wonderful team, Manchester United.

Some of the points made here are certainly valid, and I agree that in some repects Manchester is poorly designed. Completely agree about the taxiway running from the back of the hangers up to November, that would also enable easy landings on 24R (although, of course the runway isn't certified for parallel ops). It wouldn't be easy to get it done though, because as those familiar with the area to the west of the airport will know there are lots and lots of roads and trees there, including the good old Romper pub.

The thing that has to be remembered here is that Manchester was never designed to be a big airport initially. This accounts for the smaller-than-ideal terminal one. The airport have adapted well and the congestion inside T1 is kept to a minimum thanks to some clever design work. However, the point about the wingtip clearance is imexcusable, especially when the terminal in question (T2) was designed from scratch. We shall see what happens this summer, but I wouldn't hold my breath for much improvement if the forecast new services actually start...

[WAIF-er]

Being cabin crew at MAN, I totally agree with the above points - especially Staff West.

I have a 30 minute drive to work, but by the time I have parked, caught the bus, travelled to the crew room etc. it takes an additional 20 minutes. This is especially a problem when called in on standby - 1 hour 15 minutes notice!

As for you guys on T1/T3 staff car park, you should see how full staff west is at 9am on a weekday. Its full. So I dont know where they plan to send you if they sell T1 car park.

By midsummer, staff west will not be able to handle a typical days traffic. It doesnt bear thinking about.

Didnt anybody at the airport's planning dept. think that if you build a 2nd runway to attract more passengers, then you have to expand the OTHER aspects of the airport aswell?

Just another trivial moan - there are too many bl**dy roundabouts at MAN, no wonder theres congestion. Maybe the airport planners can take a trip to JFK and see some of the re-development work that is going on there. They might learn something.

[betty swallocks]

I have great deal of sympathy for all,that have to travel and work at "The worlds favorite airport", my arse.

[Rockwell]

Everyone is correct about the on going saga re. staff car parks, and this
can only get worse in the coming years as airport developments take over
existing car parking areas.

What should worry staff more is the temporary nature of Staff West, once
the northern extension of T2 gets underway.

Re 'Premier Parking': this is Manchester Airport's own brand car parking
scheme and therefore the 'leasing' of their own land doesn't come in to
it. I would suggest that the part use by PP [if true] would only be as a
temporary summer peak over spill.

Perhaps, however, the construction of the new roundabout and road system
is about to finally get underway. A new roundabout was on the drawing
boards to be constructed at the rail bridge near the Airport Hotel, with
a new road following the side of the rail line to connect up with the
existing roundabout at what is now the staff parking area entrance.

And of course there are drawings on the back of a fag packet which
show the blast screen on Ringway Road removed, the road itself closed
and the car parking area in use for aircraft parking. Then we have the
future extension of T3 across Ringway Road into the car park area.

[BillTheCoach]

Given all the fuss about car parking :

1. Why is the old Car Minder car park convenient to the Etrop Grange still closed and semi-derelict ?

2. Why do so many "non-operational" staff at MAPLC have parking in the short stay car parks whilst 'operational' staff are accommodated in Staff West ?

Our staff are given car parking in the short stays at MAN but this is necessary given the type of work which we do.

Incidentally thanks to all the flight decks and cabin crews involved at LPL for the football flights since yours truly was there masterminding the apron bus transfers between terminal and parked a/c which all went very well.

Highlight of the returns was the MON 757 being chased along the apron by two sets of steps and 5 coaches so that when it stopped the pax were straight off and away and a/c closed up again within 15 mins !

Maybe we should be talking to MAPLC about bussing........hmmmmmmmmmm

[gurnzee]

about the forward planning thing, apparently the computers that operate/control ground lighting for each runway are not compatible with each other and the 'authorities' have electricians in the tower 24/7 to try to rectify the fault

[chiglet]

gurnzee
R2 Has a prob, yup. It's a software snag, in that the lights take more than X [Ican't remember] to go from "stop" to "go". Ergo ATC have "difficulties" BUT repeat BUT
MA plc engs are not rpt NOT in the twr H24/7
"Liason" goes on, of course, but 95% time, it's normal ops.

[Judas Priest]

All our companies, airlines and airports alike, seem to be run by idiots. How come? How do these obvious incompetents work their up to their positions? And worse, which group of complete tossers selected them?

But all is not lost. I believe in fate and poetic justice and come-uppance. As is happening in BRAL and Brymon right now, these cretins are eventually found out and given a one way ticket to a Burger King frying pan.

This is a natural law. We will be rid of them eventually. Patience, my friends.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

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Each bad day is one day closer to a good day