Second Officers standing firm

[SweepTheLeg]

I'm proud of you guys for standing up for yourselves today. The turnout alone was enough to show the Company that we're not going to put up with this B.S. non-compliance with the Contract. The look on Sten Kroutil's, the GMA's and GMF's faces when they saw the numbers in the audience was priceless. I'm convinced if we had stones there would have been a lynching.

The solidarity shown today made me proud.

We're taking it back.

[Frogman1484]

Sorry guys, I'm missing something. What happened today?:confused:

[iflylow]

The Company knows now that they're dealing with a different type of pilot group and a stronger Union. Most of the S/Os hired in recent years have previous airline and/or command experience and aren't intimidated by management scare tactics and aren't starry-eyed at working for a new carrier. They've seen it before.

You are only worth as much as you negotiate. Just remember that.

I also heard that the meeting overflowed out of the AOA office and into CX City auditorium. Union meetings on Company grounds. I love it.

Heard CX brought in three managers to try to talk one-on-one with the "few S/O's" they thought would show up and try to and intimidate them a little. Guess you upstaged them.

Heard also the Union officials present had to put an end to the meeting before it got too "ugly."

Nicely done boys.

Solidarity.

[mayday911]

:ok:

One question:

I read all the AOA updates and I do not recall the mention of a meeting, did I miss something?

Mayday

[A Scaler]

Yes the whole thing was a nice thought, but like Sten said... he was only glad he was there because he was being paid to be there.

Some valid points were raised and it was nice to see a few more guys show than was expected, but it really felt like a few high school kids argueing with some teachers about a change to the cafeteria menu... they could care less.

Its going to be a long 4 years fella's, enjoy a week on the beach in Bali every month.

[SweepTheLeg]

One question:

I read all the AOA updates and I do not recall the mention of a meeting, did I miss something?

Mayday

About 63 S/Os showed up I believe. When you consider that there are about 300+ S/Os on the line, with about 50% either flying or on leave, that leaves about 150 S/Os in HK. That means that 42% of S/Os decided on their day off to show up and DO SOMETHING about their careers. That is impressive. Now imagine if we can extrapolate those numbers out to the ENTIRE PILOT GROUP. It's not that far-fetched.


This was sent out to all the AOA S/Os a week or two ago. Thank you to the new GC for organizing this:

Dear Member

On October the 3rd at 14:00 we will be holding an informal meeting for our Second Officers to discuss and share ideas on BPP issues and general Second Officer concerns. The meeting will be held at the AOA lounge 6th Floor General Stores building across from Cathay City. Attending to answer questions and receive feedback will be members of your General Committee as well as Sten Kroutil from the company, who will be able to shed some light on issues directly affecting Second Officers. If you have non member Second Officer friends interested in joining the AOA please bring them along and try to arrive by 13:00 as we will be able to offer some one on one time with members of your General Committee.


Please let the AOA office know if you plan to attend by sending an email to [email protected].


Thank you

HKAOA General Committee

[The Messiah]

would've been better if we all knew........
But they did, I thought SweepTheLeg just established that.

[Aussie]

So anyone care to comment on what exactly went on and what was said.....?

[fire wall]

I am proud of you guys.
Would have loved to have been there.
Interested in what was discussed, obviously it was no longer a "one on one" chat as the company wanted (keep it controlled ) so if someone could please jot down what went on/general mood/responses from management participants it would be appreciated. Also who from the GC was in attendance?

[controlledCHAOS]

Don't worry.

Cathay will sack about 49 S/Os randomly sometime in the near future and the rest will go back to work quietly.

[fire wall]

That's just the sort of comment we don't need on this discussion.
CChaos, go and cower in the corner if you wish. Others are doing something to effect change-you are obviously too scared or too pathetic to be one of them so go and F off

[Dead Head]

Well done ladies and gents.

[controlledCHAOS]

Firewall,

My statement only reflect Cathay Pacific Airways' history in dealing in malcontents mate.

Sad but true.

[volarecantare]

Good show boys, heard the room was electric!

[controlledCHAOS]

Wouldn't surprise me if our AOA president (aka the management spy) has already handed over the list of S/Os in attendance for disciplinary actions to follow.

[Frogman1484]

Controlled chaos, what is your problem , these guys are on a high and all you can think of are stupid chirps! If you got nothing better to say ....SHUT UP!!!!:mad:

[Gone Down]

Where to from here if the company don't do anything?

[DexyDogg]

Jizzmonkey,

All AOA members received that email. The meeting was well advertised.

I agree with you; would have been great for more people to show up in support, but AOA communications are in fine shape, in my opinion. :ok:

Cheers!

[Fenwicksgirl]

This meeting was intended for S.Os only, hence the e mail to S.Os. Instead of a few turning up, the company has seen first hand how agrieved the S.Os are!! Hopefully the AoA will organise one for the rest of us. In the meantime well done to the AoA and the S.Os, a great initiative and despite the ney sayers a valuable experience for all. Remember change is slow here, but the ball is starting to roll, keep the good work up AoA!!!!!!!!!!

[ACMS]

There's only one thing to say.......................Damn fine job boys and girls.:ok:

Now the AOA should arrange a meeting for ALL to attend.

[moosp]

And good to see every week the recruitment figures for the AOA. Lots of S/Os and F/Os and the occasional captain.

The AOA cannot get better until they represent a large majority of the pilots. Keep up the recruitment drive, it is long term thinking but it will be effective.

[411A]

...it is long term thinking but it will be effective.

Until the company has another 49 names on a don't come Monday letter.

[superfrozo]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)

How sad it is that there are those who still cower in this day & age, or who still find reasons NOT to join the AOA!

Perhaps the most notable event of the day was the gob-smackingly surprising admission from management that it is not paying ANY SOs bypass pay due to DEFOs, only extendees. :eek:

Given that there are in the order of 120+ DEFOs this is truly unbelievable!!

Sure, the SO meeting did not, and quite possibly will not result in any definitive action. BUT, I truly believe it was a watershed event for two reasons:

1. Numbers. 60+ guys united by a common resolve, expressed in no uncertain terms direct to management their dissatisfaction with the company's liberal interpretation of the COS. Some quotes:
"...unethical..."
"...immoral..."
"...all we want is what YOUR contract states!"
...etc.

There were clear, well expressed and ultimately sound arguments from many present. The simple fact that the most asked question (essentially "do you agree that the point of the BPP clause is to recompense SOs for the delay to upgrade as a result of DEFOs?") went ultimately unanswered in Palin-esque, nay, Miss South Carolina-esque replies showed that the management KNOW what they're doing is simply wrong. They can't even stomach their own spin anymore. Squirming was not the word, utter shame would be more apt.

2. Demographic. Adding to the above, it is now clear that the profile of the average SO in the audience showed just how much the DESO to new hire DEFO experience level has shifted. This added more salt to the wounds of many SOs. The SOs currently being discriminated against are not "your mid-twenties single guys with limited experience who couldn't get a real flying job". Almost all in the audience were 30+ guys (many with spouses/families) and bringing 10+ years of airline and/or military flying experience to Cathay. These are not types who shrink from expressing what they think for fear of their jobs. And despite the fact that management said "many of you here wouldn't have qualified for the DEFO entry anyway" (as if that was reason enough to now NOT pay bypass pay!) I would like give kudos to the gent who politely pointed out his 7000 hours of jet time, including considerable command time, would more than qualify him. Further, the follow up comment from one manager that "...it's good to see that you all think you could be FOs in Cathay, I like your confidence..." set new standards in condescension.

Fact is, the BPP clause in COS99 was expressly intended to prevent the sort of thing that's happening right now. We all know it, the company knows it, and most importantly of all the the company knows first hand that WE ARE NOT HAPPY about it.:=

Unfortunately, the only language that the company will listen to is legal-ese.

Brilliant job AOA, brilliant work SOs.

Solidarity brothers! (and sisters!):ok:

[Humber10]

There seemed to be alot more that 60 there, more like close to 100 S/Os!

As for the company, the impression I got, is they really didnt give a hoot and they seemed quite happy justifying that they didnt have to pay a cent of BPP, and were in complete denial that it was delaying S/O progression. Who cares about maintaining staff loyalty eh? I guess they can buy it at DEFO rates these days.... :ugh:

All the more reason for CC. Hopefully some of you guys will stop bending over and stop coming in on your days off.

Out of interest, where exactly are the Pax DEFOs based, and are they now on all fleets? I've been only able to count about 70 on the 777 and Airbus off the ASL. At a guess about 30 extendeee CNs and DECs.

[411A]

I would like give kudos to the gent who politely pointed out his 7000 hours of jet time, including considerable command time, would more than qualify him.

All very interesting, however, with that type of experience, one wonders just why he would accept an SO job with CX in the first place.
All things considered, it really doesn't say all that much for the guys thought process.
I have to laugh about all this.
Here we have somewhat experienced folks applying for a very junior position, one that might be seen to be attractive for, perhaps, a 500 hour pilot.
Quite frankly, it....

1) doesn't say much for the recruiting process at CX, and
2) doesn't say much for the applicant, either.

Seems to me that CX just asked for trouble accepting these guys in the first place....now they clearly have problems with 'em, now.

An unsavory situation, at best.

[Kitsune]

Probably didn't want to be flying beat up sh*tty old TriStars... (have you carried out those ADs yet 411a.....?)

[badairsucker]

(have you carried out those ADs yet 411a.....?)


I doubt it, he's too busy on PPRUNE writing bollox.

[411A]

Probably didn't want to be flying beat up sh*tty old TriStars

Well, I expect none of 'em have any experience in the TriStar anyway, so they would be of no use to an L10 operator.
However, plenty of jobs elsewhere for experienced guys, so one wonders...just what is the draw for CX, seeing as how they are now turning the screws on SO's...and others...and there is, under HK law, absolutely nothing the employees can do about it.
AOA, or no AOA.

[badairsucker]

Told you............

[2 cents]

Took him 6 whole minutes to reply though. He's starting to lose it with age...he used to be able to troll through all the forums posting BS much faster than that.

[ACMS]

Hey 411A why do new joiners need L1011 time to be "of any use to an L10 operator" anyway?

Is other Jet time no good forn the mighty tristar?

Is the Tristar that hard to fly?

I have a lot of mates that flew the old girl and NONE of them said it was hard.

[Loopdeloop]

Superfrozo: excellent post.

Kitsune, Badair, etc: Click on User CP and at the bottom of the menu that appears on the left there's a handy function that will save you time in the future not having to waste your precious time reading ill thought out irrelevancies from from those who habitually post them!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Reeftrip,

Do you mean like all the Captains that stood together in 1999 and post 2001? I rather stand-alone and watch my own back thanks, but that’s a thread drift.:ugh::mad:

It would have been nice for the rest to know as some Captains and First Officers may have shown up for support. :ok:

God forbid wearing something yellow.:sad::*

I can ensure you, all S/O were accounted for. CX is a very vindictive company and all name are accounted for. That is who they are.:=:rolleyes:

But hell, it doesn’t affect the me syndrome that will take precedence.:=

Stop picking on 411, he has feeling too!:}:}

[DDDOF]

411a

As far as experience goes, just about everyone I joined with as S/O's had over 5000 hours and jet time. Some were offered DEFO jobs on the frieghter, but with a start date a year later, guess they figured it would be better to be a year up the sen. list. Some wanted to come to HK. Not an option for DEFO's on the frieghter.
I can understand how some of them are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside has less experience in general, in the company and on type. And I can understand how some of the JFO are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside who has less experience in general and less time in the company, did less sectors to check to the line, and didn't have to do a QL, and took the base that they now can't get.

[Apple Tree Yard]

...well, can't understand why anyone would consider CX to be an unfair employer. Seems they really care about the stability and fairness of our careers.... :eek::uhoh::mad:

[ron burgandy]

Did any of the S/O's at the meeting ask why they still have to endure an upgrade interview, the rank of JFO and then a QL check to become F/O's?

All this while these DEFOs- who are an unknown quantity to CX in terms of their performance are just given their 3 bars after bear minimum sim and line training.

S/O's who have a 3+ year training/checking file with CX, are subjected to far more rigorous standards than someone off the street- this is crazy!:ouch::ugh:

[Loopdeloop]

Good point Ron. In fact the DEFO's from Oasis had just 10 sectors before a line check and 3 bars.

[BusterHot]

411A has posted some fairly contentious stuff here in the past. A lot of times it’s been posted as a wind up, sometimes just to inflame and other times to insult. Sometimes there’s something that shows he might have half a brain after all and while he sits sipping his margaritas reliving the glory days of the 3 holer, he chooses to toss a pearl to the swine which is, unfortunately, immediately dismissed due to his previous “form”.

This time I have to admit to being somewhat in tune with his sentiments. Just WHAT do you think a bunch of SO’s is going to achieve, even united as they apparently are? Hasn’t your brief time in that (once?) great airline told you anything? That you aren’t dealing with a bunch of rank amateurs here, but a bunch of hardened, sharp, ruthless and sometimes downright dirty, professionals. “Legal-ese” one person wrote. Ha! You don’t know what you’re talking about. If CX want to get into a legal s&%$ fight, they’ll employ a team that’ll make your hair stand on end. For one thing their delaying tactics will bleed you dry. Go ask the AOA how much of your money (and mine for that matter) has been wasted over the last 15 years on stupid and pointless legal arguments that had no chance of success because of Hong Kong’s complete lack of fair labour laws.

In some respects you’re right; you have to stand up and fight. But if you’re going to pick a fight with Cathay Pacific, or more importantly, J Swire and Sons, you have to be totally united. And that means from the most senior captain to the most junior SO. If you don’t, any action will have limited impact, probably fizzle out in a short time and may even have no effect at all. What might be good for a SO in HKG, might be the last thing a FO in UK wants to fight for if his command is about to start. See the problem you’ve got?

In 1990, a Flight Engineer stood up at an AOA meeting in the Sheriton and told everyone in no uncertain terms that all this talking was bo££ocks and if they wanted to change anything they had to be prepared to go on STRIKE. There was a stunned silence. Never in the history of the AOA and it’s cosy relationship with CX management had anyone uttered those words.

But tell you what, he was absolutely right. We had a WOE campaign. Withdrawal Of Enthusiasm. Well, that had them shaking in their shoes. Not! Then we had various stages of Contract Compliance. What happened? F%$£ all! Then B Scales, nothing. 1994 new contracts, nothing. ASL, nothing. C,D……X scales, nothing. 1999 new contacts (again), oh wow (!) this time we had a “sick out”!!!! Not a go slow, not a work to rule, not a STRIKE, but……..a sick out. How lame. Sure it cost the company a lot and they came back to the table and gave slightly better terms, but a victory? Ha! Don’t make me laugh. In 2000 they demoted a load of guys for various trivial misdemeanours and in 2001, WHAM, the 49’ers plus a couple of others who happened to cop a bit of collateral damage.

And so it goes on and on and on. When I was there the AOA was toothless. All it did as far as I could see was to cost me a lot of money, 2 pay rises and give me a load of grief. But the AOA IS the membership and because the membership is so split and so dispersed, you’ll NEVER get the backing for the only action that will make CX sit up and take notice. And they know it!! And any action isn’t going to be conceived by a bunch of SO’s on their own, no matter how united and pi$$ed off they are.

Sitting on the FH forum of PP and whining isn’t going to get you anywhere. You have to get the whole membership behind you and also get everyone that left in 2000, 1 and 2 back in the fold. And then what? Do you have a leader that’s both ruthless and intelligent enough to know when and how to pick a fight you’re going to win?

All I can say is that I hope you’re keeping your tactics quiet and not blabbing them around the bazaars, especially here, otherwise CX management will run rings around you. They probably will anyway because the bottom line is they’re running an airline in difficult times and not a kindergarten or a nice cosy career progression for their employees. If they want to hire DEC’s because they’re short, they will, and at the end of the day there will be nothing that any of you can do about it.

Wake Up Gentlemen, the world is changing. Airlines are going bust whole sale. There are hundreds of pilots out there right now with Boeing and Airbus ratings that will fill the hole when you leave or are fired, no matter how short a period they’re there. And you think people won’t come? Look at Australia in 1989, and even CX in 2001. Recruitment ban? Lol. CX might be screwing you around at the moment (don’t they always?) but you still have a job, so pick your time VERY, VERY carefully. You have to remember that at the moment they hold a lot of good cards. Whether or not they have a winning hand however, is a completely different matter!! That’s up to you!

If you want to have a fight, then make your preparations quietly and carefully and then hit them hard where it hurts, when they’re least expecting it. No boxer ever won a fight by going up and tapping his opponent on the shoulder and asking to talk. You have to go up and “punch their lights out” so they don’t get up and come back for more. Anything less, your (apparent) victory will be very short lived when they come back and fire a bunch of you as they did in 2001 - 2 years after the “sick out”.

Best of luck. Try not to give away your intentions. I think observers would prefer to read about it 2 days later in the papers.

[fire wall]

Gone Down, I do not agree.
BusterHot retells history.
It would be a fool who does not learn from it, and a greater fool that would make the same mistakes.

[iceman50]

GONE DOWN off you go then, there's a good boy. You supposedly knew what you were joining, joined and now think you and a few other SO's will change the mighty dragon. Dream on!:rolleyes:

Just make sure that you guys are not being use for ulterior motives, and by the way your P2X rating is really worth a lot out there!!:ugh::ugh:

[Grivation]

It never ceases to amaze me the contempt that some Cathay pilots show towards each other. Un-paralled in my experience working for other airlines around the world.

Well done to the S/O's :ok:

[CXChildLabour]

Have you ever flown with any RP/RQ DEFO who simply has no clue what he's doing? I did, felt like a training SO. Absolutely no local knowledge, no technical knowledge, no SOP knowledge. :eek: I personally would NOT dare to take any controlled rest when I'm sitting with these backdoor sneakers. And kudos to the handful of 4-bars who simply refuse to give these guys a sector. :D

If you think experience is what the company based on when they hire these guys, you would be surprised. I found out about one who got hired as a DEFO, passed base training and been doing LUFS flying REAL pax. :ugh: Apparently he has NEVER EVER flown a jet nor seen a glass cockpit before. Unfortunately for him, he didn't get through his training, another precious training slot well WASTED. Now you're telling me he's more qualified for the position than any SO who has done their time with the company? Especially the ones who wanted that particular base only to be rejected as they have yet to be assessed as eligible for JFO upgrade? :confused: Not only are SO's missing out on their bypass pay but also their slim chance of getting home after doing their time in HK.

What really pisses me off is of all the DEFO's that I've talked to, majority of them are more than willing to relocate to HKG after doing their time on the base, in order to take advantage of the lucrative housing allowance as an expat. I really wonder how many of these guys would actually sign up the first place if they were told that they MUST stay on the base or never get any allowance even if they relocate.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

CXChildLabour

If you think that these DEFO's are USELESS,wait till you fly with the new DEC's..

"SCARY/SHOCKING" would be an under-statement..:eek:

[Grivation]

Guys - see my post above. Nothing good comes from alienating one group or the other.

The reason we have DEFO's & DEC's is because the pilot group wasn't united enough, and therefore the AOA not strong enough, to do anything about it. Thank God that is changing.

Don't blame the guys, they're all just average joe's like the rest of us. Your gripe is with the company and their lack of respect for your CoS.

Strength in numbers - united numbers :ok:

[411A]

Strength in numbers - united numbers

Problem is, no one is united in the required numbers.
And even if they were, it would do no good.
The company would simply produce another 49er letter, and any sort of solidarity would fold like a house of cards.
One wonders when some of these newer folks at CX will finally wake up and discover that HK labor laws simply are not suitable for any sort of negotiation...they are firmly stacked in the favor of the company, and nothing can be done about it.
Nothing, except leave CX for greener pastures.

BusterHot knows the score.
Better read and learn from him, otherwise expect much grief.

[And Then]

411a

Attrition & unity works. Look at KA pilots last year. :ok:

[411A]

Attrition & unity works. Look at KA pilots last year

CX has been around for a very long time, and positively knows how to manipulate its employees to the distinct advantage of the company.

The SO's don't stand a chance.
None whatsoever.

[The Messiah]

Well said Ron, and I concur. Stop bitching ladies and gents and get on board, it's your voice.

[controlledCHAOS]

There are already a few of the S.Os in attendance last week who have been called into the office for a "chat". I wonder what they were chatting about. :rolleyes:

Becareful out there and watch your back.

[CXChildLabour]

The Messiah

Just to let u know, I am indeed bitching as an AOA member.

[Kitsune]

.....and the progress with those pesky L1011 ADs....?

[canuck revenger]

Controlled Chaos...REALLY....so some SO's have been 'called in' have they...? Well, a friend works in management, and he told me categorically that NO SUCH THING HAS HAPPENED. You are a lying, agitating scum...so why don't you go away and play with yourself...ok?

[controlledCHAOS]

Canuck,

You have friend in management? Are you a scumbag like he/she is as well? As far as I know, there are no one good who works in management.

[canuck revenger]

CC, stop talking...start playing. :=

btw, you're 37...REALLY..?? :ooh:

[controlledCHAOS]

You believe everything you read on the internet? You then, must be 13.

[Apple Tree Yard]

actually no CC. I don't believe everything I read on the internet, but that was the point of my original post wasn't it....to claim that you are a lying agitating scum. There you go, thank you for making my point for me.

[T101]

No need to knok down people you don't know, Sir. How many companis are out there where a DEFO can make as much money as CX DESO; including CX itself? How many in the US of A (Arizona in your location suggets that's where you are)? Oh yeah don't forget the free house... and a week on the beach in Bali every month.

[asianeagle]

... and a week on the beach in Bali every week

What... can't afford that since there have been no meaningful inflation adjusted pay rises and can't get on the forgging flights!!!!:confused:

[The Management]

Do you actually think anyone above the rank of Second Officer really cares about a Second Officer?

Get real, this is Cathay,

[EXEZY]

You're sounding a bit less satirical these days TM, what's happened to you?

[404 Titan]

His bonus has been capped.:eek:

[nike]

and a week on the beach in Bali every week.

ummm........

[NoseGear]

In light of the DFO's ambiguous letter to the AOA regarding bypass pay....does anyone really believe that we will get it....and backpay? It smacks of 'expectation' management again....create the pool of 30 S/Os that we can all look forward to eventually getting into in order to receive bypass pay.....this effectively creates a bit of a distracton from the real issue....DEFOs who have taken our upgrades and allowed the company to "interpret" our COS to suit themselves.
And the icing on the cake is the new BOP...I understand only 12 FO course in 09...so thatll slow down the bypass pay significantly.....4 years as an S/O?

Later CX....:mad:

[Humber10]

The companies argument is that they needed to hire DEFOs.... Well if they just stuck with the COS and promoted SOs then they wouldnt have this problem, with SOs now waiting a long time to upgrade and having to pay bypass....
From my understanding it is only extendees triggering bypass for SOs as the company does not think that DEFOs should trigger it. As for the letter :ugh:....

[TruBlu351]

The companies argument is that they needed to hire DEFOs

THE only reason why CX does anything is because it's CHEAPER! They save $$$.....at the expense of someone down the chain which they can just blow off and dribble any reason under the sun.

Expat JFO costs WAY more than a DEFO.

[yokebearer]

More bad news on top of the fact that they are only upgrading about 12 SO's next year.
There are still a pool of ALREADY HIRED DEFO's sitting in the wings waiting for a start date. As soon as things look up it seems these guys will be offered courses ahead of any SO .........

[buggaluggs]

Be interesting to see how many of the more experienced S/O's are in the 'pool' ready to f**k off at the first sign of an upturn too, after being so well treated in HK :ouch: , CX screwing their staff who would have thought it!! :ugh:

[Humber10]

I think most will wait 6 months or so after the upgrade before they show their appreciation.... :ouch:
Any guesses how long it will take for an S/O to upgrade? 3.5-4 years?
It's a pitty the guys and gals on COS08 will never see a cent of Bypass....

[Grivation]

There are no pax DEFO courses penned for next year.

[TruBlu351]

You've got more patience than me :ugh:

I've been Hong Kong clean for 4 days and lovin it ;)

Ahh, the clear blue skies, nothing lost in translation........alas, life is back to normal.

To all those SO's below, please take one step forward :ok:

[NoseGear]

It wouldnt be quite so bad if they just HONORED THE CONTRACT THEY WROTE:ugh::mad:

I quite agree with Humber10s assesment......:D

On a slightly side note, why does the company honor the bypass agreement to guys on a base who choose not to come back to HK for a command, yet pay them bypass pay, but not the S/Os......:yuk:

[Liam Gallagher]

I think it all comes down to the wording of the Contract. The clause relating to FO's doesn't have the word "suitable" in it; whereas the clause relating to SOs does....

[icanfly2]

It is all a big game.

The fact of the matter is that a selection panel is actually used to determine those that are unsuitable not those that are suitable!!

So it is quite correct to assume that once Cat A and STI is passed you are infact suitable!

And to quote the management at the SO meeting he said you would be surprised at how many get turned down at selection board. This tells me again that they use the selection board to select those that are unsuitable not those that they already know are suitable (I imagine those files are already ticked suitable) In there busy world why would they waste time talking about people with good simulator/interview/employment records????

Games, games, games.........

[Voiceofreason]

That's a weird analysis icanfly... surely the fact that there are some people who are "unsuitable" when they reach the selection board means that you CANNOT assume that when you are Cat A and have your STI you are in fact suitable?

If it came down to just those two points the selection board would simply be rubber-stamping.

[rhoshamboe]

So tell us Voice of Reason. If you are Cat A and have no problems with your sims why exactly would you be deemed unsuitable?? I wouldn't call the review board a rubber stamp, just a way to f$%# people over. Hoops for the sake of saving a few bucks...

[Voiceofreason]

Off the top of my head:

1) I'm not a good communicator
2) English-language skills not up to scratch
3) The three modules I have taken since Cat A haven't been consistent, and that I may need to prove myself further

Just as examples of some SOs I know who have been knocked back.

[EXEZY]

Voice of reason, are you in management? As far as I'm aware S/O's are not being interviewed, and are certainly not assessed, at 3 Modules subsequent to Cat A status, so you must be privy to inside knowledge of a particular S/O who is unlikely to be deemed "suitable" at such a time as this is likely.
And why oh why are you writing in first person, should'nt you be writing in third person if you know of a particular S/O or S/O's with the mentioned problems? Unless of course you are one of the S/O's listed above but somehow I think not.... I don't like your tone.

[Voiceofreason]

I'm writing in the first person as I was asked the question in a hypothetical situation.

I do know of S/Os who this has happened to, but this does not mean I am in management, simply that I speak to those people who are affected.

Whether you like my tone or not, frankly, my dear, I don't etc.

[EXEZY]

I feel sorry for the bloke who would admit to you his English skills were not up to scratch. :}

[bobrun]

The latest proposal to upgrade the 30 or so SOs instead of paying them bypass pay seems to be only a way to avoid fixing the real problem. By proceeding that way, what will happen the next time SOs are being prejudiced and not paid their entitled bypass pay? It doesn't solve anything beyond the very short term. Courts are the way to go. Lets set a precedent for the benefit of all, so that the next time all will be paid their entitlement.

[Near Miss]

What about back pay for those who had their accessment delayed, even though they were Cat A, done their STI, and the numbers suggest they should already be on course? I personally know guys that were accessed just before their course, yet had done their STI months in advance. :confused:
I feel very sorry for all of the SO's that have seen their upgrade blown out due to the downturn, yet are flying with DEFO's that are a lot junior to them. Let them make their own bunk I say!
Oh and now that we have about 100 excess pilots, and training is grinding to a halt, why do we need all those C&T Extendees? Wasn't the sole reason they were kept on was to conduct all the training ensuring a quick upgrade? :rolleyes:
The things that this company will do to save a few dollars at the expense of their staff. :yuk:

[Subwoofer]

NR is so adamant that DEFOs do not trigger bypass pay for SOs, has the union taken the position that DEFOs SHOULD trigger it?? I hope that's part of the court case.

[iflylow]

Is it just me or is NR getting more and more condescending? Let me paraphrase a few of his comments in the latest DFO update.


Contrary to popular belief, the main driver of SO Bypass Pay is not the recruitment of Direct Entry FOs. The recruitment of an FO to the passenger fleet does mean that the next most senior SO, assessed as suitable for upgrade to JFO, should receive Bypass Pay but only until they begin their upgrade course, at which point the liability to award Bypass Pay lapses. As a result the number of SOs eligible to receive Bypass Pay by this method is always very small.

Yes of course if we assessed everyone after 18 months, we'd be paying a crapload in bypass pay, but we have decided to assess S/Os a week before they upgrade, therefore the number of SOs eligible to receive Bypass Pay by this method is always very small. It's very simple arithmetic here guys. Are you following me??



The principle of Bypass Pay is to compensate a crew member for a slow-down in his or her career progression so it is ironic that, since we began extending Check & Trainers beyond normal retirement age, the average time spent as an SO has come down by about 12 months.
Yes, we are intentionally slowing down your career by hiring DEFO-Pax F/Os, but because of excellent macroeconomonic conditions, we'll ignore the Contract because you should all be happy to just have jobs.


The dispute with the AOA, however, is not over the principle of Bypass Pay but the strict interpretation of the wording in the CoS and the Company’s established practice of assessing SOs as suitable for upgrade. In very simple terms it boils down to the payment or non-payment of Bypass Pay to approximately 30 SOs (my estimate).
Yes yes, I realize that the Contract technically says we have to pay bypass pay, but hey, we didn't really update it in a while and it only affects 30 SOs (I just made this up this second out of thin air!). I know I know we've hired 100+ DEFO-PAX F/Os, but again, that is just the "strict interpretation" of what we've done. God! These technical details are giving me a headache.


The AOA is suggesting that we resolve the dispute in the courts. In an effort to avoid such a costly approach for both parties, the Company has tried to think laterally and, this week, we have made a suggestion that we upgrade at least 30 more SOs to JFO in 2009 than the BOP requires. This is based on the assumption that an SO would rather be upgraded to the position of JFO than simply receive the Bypass Pay. We will have a surplus of both SOs and FOs next year and we would prefer to spend the money on 30 JFO salaries rather than any legal fees.

Listen guys, this is just getting crazy here! Crazy! Going to the courts! Do you know who we are?? Ok ok, let's not do anything rash. Yes, "technically" the Contract states that we have to pay Bypass pay on a one-to-one basis, but I'll tell you what, those 30 S/Os that I just made up, let's upgrade them, since based on a "strict interpretation" of the contract, are entitled to bypass pay (not to mention the 70+ others), and then next year we'll just continue to screw over the rest of the S/Os, once this hopefully becomes water under the bridge. What do you say??!

[yokebearer]

lateral thinking Noun
a way of solving problems by apparently illogical methods

[quadspeed]

iflylow:
:D

Excellent narrative. should be posted on the AOA site. I fully expect the GC to turn down the DFOs offer of 30 upgrades if they've got their ears open to the SOs they represent. Sell out the remaining CoS99 SOs for 30 JFO upgrades on pain of NR only doing - 12 - JFOs in 2009? Let the rest of them do 4-5 years without bypass pay while DEFOs fill the Headland and the bays?

No way. It's blackmail and we'll fight it in the courts.

[anthraCX]

Iflylow, good post. The AOA are keen on adherence to CoS and I don't think a visit to the Labour Department will be as expensive as NR thinks. Much of the work on whether the company can unilaterally change our conditions was done on the Murray Gardener case a few years ago so it's just the specifics to argue.

[broadband circuit]

The AOA is suggesting that we resolve the dispute in the courts. In an effort to avoid such a costly approach for both parties, the Company has tried to think..... etc

avoid a costly approach for both parties??????

Nick, surely with your, & the company's, experience as a defendant in these types of actions, you must be aware that normally the party at fault is billed for the costs of the prevailing party. That being said, how could this result in "a costly approach for both parties"???. And when did you suddenly start worrying about a costly approach for the AOA??? :suspect:

The truth is that you know that you'll get absolutely roasted if this goes to court, and ultimately, not only will be the company be directed to pay our costs (immediate $$), but a legally solid precedent will be set for the future (ongoing $$). Sort of makes the 30 JFO upgrades look pretty cheap! :ouch:

[icanfly2]

If we are overstaffed with FOs well then how about force leave without pay on those DEFOs still line training whom joined less than 2 months ago, when times were already so tough and we were in the grips of the "tsunami".

Forget about keeping the team together and managements loyalty to those who have been here 2 mins, think of loyalty to those who have been here years.

If cx isn't paying there wage and they don't need to cause they are surplus to current requirements, they will have all the money available for the entitled SO bypass pay!!

The last response from the company is one of blackmail and denial. If NR was so confident that the trigger for bypass pay wouldn't be caused by the employment of DEFO why is that clause even in the CoS !! - wakeup!!

[NoAndThen]

All S/O's, you need to log onto the AOA's website and read the incoming letter from NR to the AOA. In it, he basically threatens the AOA with either accepting his proposal of only upgrading 30 S/Os as a "one-time" only option (and thereby screwing over all other S/Os) and continue keep C&T Training Captains, or fire some C&T Captain extendees, upgrading only those S/Os absolutely necessary and going to the courts. It is a blatant attempt to try to divide the pilot group. All S/Os need to write an email to [email protected] and tell them that we need to enforce the Contract and go to court.

The only reason NR is offering this compromise is because the Company knows it violated the Contract. The Company would never give away something for nothing. They know they are in trouble and are trying to bargain now. S/Os you need to let your opinion be heard.

All the S/Os who are not in the AOA, please sign up. It is only freaking 200 HKD a month. I mean, geez that is nothing. This is your career and we are talking about millions of HKD at stake.

It's time to cause some noise. Harden up and and stand up for yourselves.

[SweepTheLeg]

Great posts here guys. Iflylow, your post would be funny if it weren't so true. SweepTheLeg, I agree S/Os, this is your airline if you want it. Step up and make a name for yourselves. For this to happen, you need to want it. All it takes is an email to the AOA, or if you're not in it yet, still send an email to the AOA and tell them you want to sign up.

In this industry, you're only worth as much as you negotiate and fight. The Company knows they're wrong, and they're trying to settle. Don't sell out the rest of the S/Os. Yes, DEFO Pax hiring is of now stopping in 2009. But I guarantee it will start back up when the economy picks up, and we need to make sure that bypass pay will be paid when it does.

This is your airline if you want it. Time to step up to the plate.

[NoAndThen]

By the way, as of this post, there are nearly 15,300 views of this thread. Talk can be cheap, but you can't make up that type of interest. This is a huge issue. Time to be part of the solution.

[quadspeed]

This should go to court as a matter of principle. It's quite sad that it has to come to this, but money and judicial rulings seems to be the only languages they understand. It's good to see the AOA take firm action; it'll increase recruitment numbers once the show begins.

[slapfaan]

Let's hope that the AOA doesn't screw this one up too - I might even join the circus, providing it goes to court!!:ok:

NR - enjoy your CX xmas bonus mate,it's gonna be your LAST one!!:\

[NoAndThen]

A little snippet from the latest AOA update:
Yesterday, 22 December, the first cases were filed at the Labour Tribunal. The average claim is well into six figures, plus 5 days of leave outstanding. We will advise all AOA members, who we think might have been disadvantaged, how to commence a similar claim. We believe there are many FOs, JFOs and SOs who meet the criteria and we will assist them in pursuing their contractual entitlement to bypass pay, benefits and allowances, triggered by extended Captains and direct entry First Officers.

Thank you AOA, and thank you S/Os in the AOA. For those who are not, I truly wish you luck in negotiating / enforcing your contract individually, with the Company. If you need any help... well, you know what you should do.

[iflyplanes]

FACT:

If the SO by pass pay case comes away with a win then CX only has to pay out those people who actually signed the dotted line to be part of the court case.

S/O, JF/Os and possibly some F/O's, i would imagine, get your pens ready for the next installment which i am sure is coming soon.

You have to be in to win!


IFP

[Benefits Centre]

As you know, the company always wins. We have more cash to delay court cases than you can imagine. Odds are with this house!

Just wait your turn. No one ever said there was a maximum time be be an SO.

[iflyplanes]

Do something original with your nick, its been done before and its boring.

[Loopdeloop]

Looks like "The Management" has forgotten her password!

[NoseGear]

Is that so BC....? Are you forgetting the most recent court case wrt housing whilst on Command Bypass pay for LEPs? Thought so....:rolleyes:

[quadspeed]

I've recently spoken to several collegues, who, during discussions surrounding career progression and the current state of affairs, made some arguments that really got me thinking. And it certainly relates to this thread.

By taking RA65 as a given at some point in the foreseeable future, most guys face 20-30 years with Cathay Pacific as their employer. Most will agree that the money, even with a basing, is close to the best rate going at the moment. Selling off your lifestyle, health, family and friends for time in Hong Kong will further increase the coin in the coffer. It might cost you your wife and your kids their lungs, but at least it's your decision to make and won't be forced upon you.

The typical "CX issues" of Checking corrupting the Training, absence of SOPs to the benefit of subjective "conventions", the excessive power-distance gradient found within the culture of the airline, the complete lack of social interaction at outports and the heavy shadow of the 49ers are all issues that most learn to deal with in time, and eventually accept as grievances compensated for by the company in the form of cold, hard cash.

The foul taste that remains is the distrust many feel towards the very company to which they must trust their career, family, health and retirement to. The company has repeatedly shown that it does not require - nor desire - loyal aircrew with lifetime career aspirations. It has mockingly displayed this through its unilateral alterations to our CoS, through the poisoning of our cockpit environment with A,B,C and F scales, through the long list of condescending correspondances from the DFO to our AOA , through its intentional and deceitful CoS breaches, and through its systematic treatment of Aircrew as prostitutes who should be bough, sold and treated as any other commodity. Maybe the airline once valued a loyal, proud, respectful and driven pilot corps, but surely no more. Roy and Sydney must be rolling over in their graves.

Should any pilot, with enough hours and competency to choose his employer, trust the remainder of his career with a company who, without hesitation nor empathy, consistantly interprets the contract beyond recognition of its original intent? Trust a company who recognizes no value in your contribution, nor displays any regret at your resignation? A company who denies its employees to keep pace with the rising cost of living unless a severely damaging amount of resignations are on hand? Trust a company who rewards 9 years of loyality in the right seat by placing a guy off the street into the left?

Certainly, Cathay is probably better then most for some. And the issue isn't really whether or not to join. It's whether or not to stay.

Let Cathays further actions on this courtcase either support or discredit the comments made above. For the moment, beggars can't be choosers. But before that changes, one can only hope that the new FMA understands the damage done.

[iflyplanes]

The AOA has emailed all affected SO's and FO's with the claim form.

Fill it in and send it in if you want the ruling to be legally binding to you. No claim form, then when we win CX has no obligation to pay you your back pay monies.


IFP.

[Subwoofer]

BusyB, you still here? Or anyone: What about those SOs who aren't owed any money yet, but by the look of things will have a grudge against the company in the near future? Should they fill it out?

[Loopdeloop]

I suggest addressing your question in writing to the AOA