Bushflight

[AnyGivenSunday99]

Anyone know anything about Bushflight in Derby? I see they are hiring...

[rep]

dont bother

there is a reason they advertise on afap once a month.....

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Not my choice of employers but if you reckon you can get a flying job with them
just give it a go and clock up some hours so you can move on. Then again some people fit in there so you might actually stick around. Bottom line is that if you need some single hours and they are hiring give it a go (besides, it will put you in the Kimberley so you can take other work).

Do not try living there without a car. Broome or Kununurra maybe but Derby or Fitzroy no way.

~FRQ CB

[aileron_69]

Just search past Pprune threads. Theres been quite a few on Bushflight, its all there to read.
I wouldnt recommend signing up for the 4K bond to fly the airvan tho...:E

[landof4x]

In case you are stupid enough to take the job there:

Rule number 1 - take the bungs out before you go flying :ugh:
Rule number 2 - don't join the circuit on base, it's not allowed :=

[kongdong]

Not bad for a first job, get some hours then move on. They offer a salary which is good over the wet season in the Kimberley.

[aileron_69]

Rule number 1 - take the bungs out before you go flying


Hell no, leave them in!! Keeps the engine warm on a cold day...and warmer on a Derby day:E

[ContactMeNow]

Rule number 2 - don't join the circuit on base, it's not allowed

Just because you say "non-standard" doesnt mean your allow to do it, your just telling the world, well the guys and girls on 126.7 that your breaking the law...

Thats if you actually make radio calls anyway...what the landing fee at Derby these days... $8? :mad:

CMN :=

[aileron_69]

Just because you say "non-standard" doesnt mean your allow to do it, your just telling the world, well the guys and girls on 126.7 that your breaking the law...



....only in Australia. Of course Derby is in Australia so it isnt entirely legal no.:E

[kongdong]

pfffffft.... since when did the law matter... it's Derby... lucky that they breath test.. although maybe they should more often... but you didn't hear it from me...since around March this year that place has gone downhill!

[Radar340A]

Well the law is a mood point to those in charge up that way. Its changed 3 or 4 times which means that the law is currently wrong until they change it back to the way BF want it to be. Very professional outfit I hear... They are the bush specialists of course!

Radar.

[the wizard of auz]

Very professional outfit I hear.
Yeah, right. I heard the CP giving his outbound course and intended alt in a professional departure call. non hemispherical (actually was, but for the opposite direction) and track was 100' out as well.
Now we all make mistakes....... but that was the third time in two days I heard him do it........ and it took one of his junior pilots to point it out to him ON THE RADIO, before he corrected it.
was very Bush like. :E you have to work two jobs to make ends meet as well. ask anyone that's worked there. Nothing like unloading bags at CTN, then going to work in ya Airvan in the afternoon. :ooh:

[aileron_69]

Oh come on, leave the old fella alone!! Hes old and senile and cant remember what day of the week it is, or to brush his teeth...for 37 years. He cant help it. Its the gingavitus, attacks the memory too!!
Besides, anyone care to define the definition of a professional? It must be hard flying your aircraft from up there on your high horses, how on earth can you fit through the cabin door with them!!:E
So what if he had the wrong alt...the damn beaver doesnt get out of ground effect anyway!! Its not goin to be conflicting traffic unless you are driving a boat!!

[russianthru_thesky]

Rule number 2 - don't join the circuit on base, it's not allowed


Ah Mr. Landof4x, its been well over a year and you are still crying about joining on base. Have you seen a psychologist about this to try and get past it??

The Bushies arent that bad, ive seen worse, and with Golden eagle next door now paying all their little budgies 10K above the award I imagine Bushies will follow suit if they havent already. You learn a lot about the aircraft working there too. A lot of people crap on about how you have to work in the hanger, and at times, lets be honest, you cat be stuffed, but it is damn handy stuff to know your way around the guts of your plane when you're out in the sticks with no communiucation and something craps out!!

[gadude]

Whats wrong with joining base anyway?? i do it al the time.
along with plenty off others

[russianthru_thesky]

Apparently its dangerous, but only in Australia cos CASA say it is. Every other ICAO nation in the world has no problem with it!! But then CASA are still a long way off from converting to all the ICAO conventions!!

[gadude]

O wel in the case CASA thinks its dangerous i better start flying 3 legs off the circuit than.

yeah right:ok:

[Capt Wally]

..........................."Whats wrong with joining base anyway?? i do it al the time.
along with plenty off others " Oh boy & to think that these guys have a license!!!!:ugh: they ought to have 007 stamped on them too, licenced to kill!:sad: Professionalism & airmanship, nothing to be proud of obviously:(

I hope these guys are up nth where this thread is alluding to well away from where professional pilots fly :ugh:
Just 'cause some fly for some lesser professional outfits doesn't mean that has to extend to ones own attitude!

CW

[mattyj]

WTF..you can't join on base..no wonder you get your hours up in Aus so quick..I guess joining straight in is out of the question too. What are you supposed to do, an overhead join every time!!??:eek:

[MerlinV8]

You can join straight in, radio call's at 10nm, 3nm, 1nm and give way to traffic already in the circiut, also you can join mid down wind at a 45degree angle and from what I've seen its almost a base for those who use the term mid as a very late mid.

[russianthru_thesky]

WTF..you can't join on base..no wonder you get your hours up in Aus so quick


Thats not th half of it!! Over here they get upset if you turn right after takeoff too, unless you fly out to 5 miles or climb to 1500ft agl first, either that or depart overhead!!

Anyone would think CASA have shares in BP and Shell or something with all the screwing around they want you to do!!

[gadude]

..........................."Whats wrong with joining base anyway?? i do it al the time.
along with plenty off others " Oh boy & to think that these guys have a license!!!!:ugh: they ought to have 007 stamped on them too, licenced to kill!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif Professionalism & airmanship, nothing to be proud of obviouslyhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif

capt wally, What has joining base to do with killing people?
For starters I learned to fly in NZ were such thing is or at least was normal.
secondly nobody ever pulled me up in aussie about it. And I hear plenty off pilots with an aussie accent joining base, or finals for that matter. So for all I know it would be normal.

I was asking what was wrong with joining base. Nothing unproffesional about asking were I come from.


It would be dangerous if one was to join base WITHOUT making your attentions clear to other people in the circuit.

So could you please tell me (i am not taking the piss here mate) why it would be dangerous or unproffesional to join a base leg versus joining down wind or cross wind.

cheers :ok:

[MerlinV8]

This is not the situation I'm in but if you are in the outback and establish that there is no traffic for 100nm, why not join base, isn't all about common sense! if you are at a busy airport with ten in the circuit wouldn't it be beneficial to do as many legs of the circuit as practicable to allow others and yourself to safely space.

That no base rule has probably come about because of idiots who can't look left and right while listening to the radio and maintain situational awareness at busy airports....

[russianthru_thesky]

MerlinV8, you have hit the nail on the head perfectly there!:ok:
Basically it boils down to, CASA think that nobody has the common sense to join overhead or downwind etc when its busy so therefore made a rule so you must do 3 legs of the circuit no matter where you are or what the conditions are. NZCAA on the other hand realise that different situations require different procedures, and figure we have some semblance of common sense and will join in the safest way for the situation.

What '4x was referring to was when the bushflight planes would return to Curtin from Koolan Island in the north, and at the suggestion of the chief pilot would join a base for Rwy 11 because the track flew right to that point. Everyone was on the same track, and ended up at the same point in the circuit, and it worked perfectly cos everyone did the same thing...except him:E

[Capt Wally]

.................So could you please tell me (i am not taking the piss here mate) why it would be dangerous or unproffesional to join a base leg versus joining down wind or cross wind.

Because it's the law! I don't make the rules/laws I abide by them like all professional pilots do day in day out, from the RPT guys to the ones that sticik to the rules at grass roots level. Right or wrong if we don't ALL play the game using the same rules then safety is NOT assured, that's why we have rules in the first place.!:ugh:
Remember also not every A/C carries or knows how to use a radio.

I expected the less educated to try & justify why they fly to their own rules, what gets me is who is checking these guys? Their the ones at fault really, the check & trainers CP's etc.


CW

[Kickatinalong]

I'm with you Captain.
Kickatinalong.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[gadude]

Thanks capt, i didnt mean to upset you mate.

I was not aware off the fact that it was law until someone mentioned it in this forum the other day.
Maybe the kiwis and kiwi told pilots should do a law exam before coming over to your side off the ditch?

Yes i did do icus when I got to do charter work. but maybe it just never came up.

so thanks for bringing the law thing up.

at least now I know.

cheers:ok:

[russianthru_thesky]

So Capt'n Wally, you're saying its dangerous in Australia but not in New Zealand, to join base. Why?? If you were to go to New Zealand and fly there, would you still fly 3 legs of the circuit and tell anyone that is joining base they are dangerous, and if so, what would be your reasoning?

[flysaucer1200]

I join base at Ardmore a lot, if either 21 or 03 is in use. My call usually is- "ABC 2 NM East of Water works joining left base/or wide left base 21". Or, "ABC central Papakura joining right base 03/ or wide right base 03/ or/and trafic in sight/ or traffic mid downwind/late downwind/base in sight"

And i do this even when its busy. Other wise i join downwind or even worse i will do the correct procedure and join over head. But, sometimes its a bit hard to slot in, but usually its fine

If i am in Australia, and its quiet, then base, final whatever gets me in squarishly and legaly. Man, i have seen planes scream in with no aparant adherence to the bases, just shoot on in with any angle, slap the flaps down and bung it on the tar. But, mostly its dead skys around when they do so. But, when its busy, on the east coast, i see most planes joining in the middle of the downwind and call, and then seperate a bit to find there slot and down on they go finding there space until they land.
FS1200 :ok::ok::ok:

[MerlinV8]

Flysaucer,

I flew at Ardmore for ten years and it is busiest airport in NZ, if you learn't to fly there and know all the reporting points and procedures of course it shouldn't be a problem, I'm not sure what point you were were trying to make?

Imagine you're a new PPL never been there before and decide that because of your track you will join base, little do you know two aircraft are about to join straight in on final, one is joining overhead and three are in the circuit, what happens is everyone starts to shuffle around you trying to fix the spacing up when you should be giving away to them, not to mention if an idiot is at the controls, will he be looking in the right direction? up/down left/right?

You have told us you know Ardmore very well and nothing else.

[the wizard of auz]

I do believe you may find Capt Wally flys aircraft quite a bit more substantial that the veritable old 206, and at heights where waterfalls are a little harder to see. :E

[rep]

ABC, joining late downwindturningbase

[MerlinV8]

Rep,

You have to worry about someone who says "I join base even when its busy but when joining overhead it can be hard to slot in" :ugh:

Flyingsaucer

"ABC central Papakura joining right base 03/ or wide right base 03/ or/and trafic in sight/ or traffic mid downwind/late downwind/base in sight"

Base in sight? Are we now calling when we have the circuit legs in sight? :bored: are they still visible when its IMC? or do you need to be VFR to see them?

[Capt Wally]

Tnxs 'WIZ" for yr defence but there's little point in responding to the uneducated within the pilot fraternity, they stick out like a sore thumb with their low level of intell! Just goes to show that's the type we have to deal with in a world where airmanship & professionalism come second to so called smart*ss flying.


CW

[RadioSaigon]

...they stick out like a sore thumb with their low level of intell! Just goes to show that's the type we have to deal with in a world where airmanship & professionalism should come first...

hmmm... they do rather, don't they?

...Base in sight? Are we now calling when we have the circuit legs in sight?...

I think if you read it properly you will see that the phraseology used would be in reference to the traffic on that particular leg of the traffic pattern... not that hard to figure out I would have thought.

[MerlinV8]

Saigon, Ok you got me on that one! :E reading too fast...

I still stand by everything else I have said.....

[the wizard of auz]

Except the 206 bit....... coz that got changed. :E:ok:

[landof4x]

Russian,

I never argued whether it was safe or not, or how many people fly to the aerodrome, or whether you trained in New Zealand, or if it's allowed there, or any other :mad:**** arguments you bring.

I said it was illegal.

And here you are admitting on a website which CASA frequents, that you have been breaking the law. Smart move mate. :ok:

Ask anyone involved in pilot selection, psychology or human factors whether someone who breaks rules because they think they know better is more or less likely to kill a plane load of people. It's called "invincibility" or "i know better" or "macho" in several forms of literature regarding hazardous attitudes in aviation.

[aileron_69]

You tell 'em 4x!! its guys like that who make me wish I had a threat warning reciever in my plane!! "Warning, random Airvan all over the place, take evasive action!!":E

[Cap'n Arrr]

...so if a guy from the US comes over to Aus, and starts walking around the streets with his M16 slung over his shoulder, then claims "its legal in the US so I'm going to do it here", that's ok?

When you're in any country, you follow their rules. You know, the ones in that "Air Law" exam that you had to pass. Just because "they do it in NZ" doesn't mean it should be done here. If you can join base easily, surely mid downwind is just as easy, the difference being that you are doing it legally.

Joining base in a CTAF is not all of a sudden dangerous in Australia. It is, however, against the law. With all the crap dished out on prune at pilots/instructors who don't follow/teach standard procedures, then we have comments like this.:ugh:

[gadude]

Capt i agree with your post to a point, yes you have to follow the law in a country that you are in HOWEVER, you do need to know the law 1st to be able to follow it.
Yes in NZ you can join base and in aussie you can't but how will one know that if no one ever told them???
its nice and easy just to start bagging people out for not knowing the law but last time i chekked it is NOT the law to resit a law exam when you go from NZ to Aussie.

when you come on holyday from Aussie to NZ are you going to sit a driving test?? i seriusly doubt anybody in this tread will.
yet there are at least one minor different rule on the road that will lead to a bit off confusion, yet nobody ever told you.
try on a strait road to turn left while oposite traffic on the same road wants to turn right into the same road. get my drift?? different give away rules in the 2 countries. but that is not going to make you all off a sudden a les profesional car driver now is it. just because you didnt know.

I am going to be a proffesional bloke and join mid down wind from now on.

I am willing to learn and to better, but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation.
I bet you that very little if any guy/girl who comes over from ozzie to nz to fly would pick up a law book and studie it from back to front just incase there was a small difference somewere in the rules.

They licence cross over is a paper exercise at a casa office, for me i just wrongly asumed that the rules would be the same.
but there you go, one should never asume hey

cheers :ok:

[Capt Wally]

'gadude' some points you make re going to a diff country to fly you wouldn't read the rulebook for every possible change is most likely true to some degree few would study the different rules entirely. BUT when it comes to circuit requirements (of which this thread is mainly all about) I think you will find it would not only be dangerous but very poor airmanship no to know the particular countries proceedures in this very important & at times risky environment, the circuit.
.................... but i get the impression that there are some people on here that think they already no everything there is to know about aviation. ........'gadude' it's a professional pilots job to know everything & if he doesn't he learns, saying as much above isn't a part of making excuses not to learn.
Like I mentioned earlier in here who's teaching these pilots to do as THEY think is best?:sad:

We know, now you know & hopefully everbody else less educated now knows that you DO NOT join base (in VMC) for a circuit here in OZ.

CW

[gadude]

Capt wally, I will be good from now on:ok:

In your statement that we as profesional pilots do need to know everything i agree to a point. but not entirely. Law wise yes.
but there is plenty to learn in aviation as we go.
personaly i learn every flight I do. And I am sure that won't change anytime soon. I learn still everyday on how my plane performs in different temps winds and terain etc.
I used to load on agwork for an old fella who clocked up 30000 hours in his career, he said "the day i dont think i will learn more when i am flying is the day i wil resign and go fishing."

He did end up going fishing after a non aviation silly accident put him out off flying. I would like to ad, maybe not so relevant to this post bit still a valueble lessen he repeated day in day out. and still when i talk to him.

"never rush, and when you are new in a job or new aircraft give yourself plenty off room and take your time"

Maybe this statement is less relevant in IF flying when controll tells you what to do i am not sure as i dont hold an IF rating. it sure counts for VFR specialy for low level ops off any kind.

Cheers:ok:

[300Series]

"IF you were to go to New Zealand would you still fly 3 legs of the circuit and tell anyone that is joining base they are dangerous, and if so, what would be your reasoning?"

Put your Iceman helmet on then Transmit!

ABC, YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS! I'M TOO CLOSE FOR MISSILES I'M SWITCHING TO GUNS! YOU GUYS ARE DANGEROUS!

300

[avi8ar]

In the time i spent flying out of derby, there was never a traffic problem that couldnt be sorted out over the radio. And that was with the Eagle boys, the bushflight guys and the broome av blokes all flying into the same place. Never had a problem.

And can anyone help me out with the reference to the section forbidding a circuit join on base.
I've found AIP ENR 1.1 - 86 (64.5.1) but that doesn't say joining the circuit on base is illegal, but only recommends ways of joining the circuit.

"Entry to the circuit depends upon the direction of arrival and traffic conditions. The recommended methods for entering the circuit are as follows:"

And for the record, it doesnt recommend a straight in approach, which we all know is legal. So just because it doesnt recommend it, doenst mean its illegal.

[gadude]

avi8ar, thats interesting but i do think that capt wally would have his grounds covered, meaning (not being disresectfull nor trying to take the p#ss) that there is quiete likely a law that das tell us to fly 3 legs off the circuit.

also a question for the more experienced ppruners, How do you start a new tread???
i was thinking off a tread regarding the difference in NZ and Ozzie law and any other thing we can come up with, to benefit those who will go cross tasman.
the likes off not joining base in aussie, the flying odd numbers plus 500 and even and 500 going east west headings vs the same in NZ going north south etc.

and the read back to ATC including the QNH in NZ were in OZ all you tell m that you have info delta or what ever it might be.

cheers:ok:

[Cap'n Arrr]

gadude,
No offence was intended, my post was more directed at those who think that they know better, and knowingly ignore the rule.:ugh:Apologies if it came across the wrong way towards you.:) Normally, for conversion to Oz you have to pass an Air Law exam, but not if you come via the TTMRA. I believe our VMC rules are different to NZ as well.

avi8ar - I'm pretty sure there's a rule along the lines of "an aircraft must fly at least 3 legs of the circuit" then a separate rule later on saying "an exception is if ... (rules RE straight in)" You are right in that the AIP (for the record I use Jepps, so there may some difference in the wording) does not specifically say base joins are illegal. It does say you must fly 3 legs of the circuit, except when following the straight in procedure. 3 legs = downwind, base and final. I haven't looked the rule up too recently though, so I could be wrong, but Wally seems to have the same idea as me.

[avi8ar]

I too recall the three legs of a circuit rule when i got my license but im having trouble finding it in the docs

[Sector3]

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/act_regs/1988.pdf

166 Operating in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome

(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
(a) maintain a look-out for other aerodrome traffic to avoid collision; and
(b) ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft in the vicinity of the aerodrome; and
(c) conform with, or avoid, the circuit pattern; and
(d) unless subregulation (3) or (4) applies — when approaching the aerodrome to land, join the circuit pattern for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken on the upwind, crosswind or downwind leg; and
Note A circuit pattern has upwind, cross-wind, down-wind, base and final legs.

(4) The pilot in command of an aircraft may join the circuit pattern at a non-controlled aerodrome on the base leg, for the direction in which landing is to be undertaken, only if:
(a) CASA has given approval to do so; and
(b) details of the approval have been published in AIP.
Penalty: 25 penalty units.

[Capt Wally]

Tnxs 'sector 3' for that.

I don't think it's needed to be shown that 3 legs are required to join a circuit(unless the other known rues apply) it's common knowledge that it's so or should be. From the first day I was taught to fly & the subsequent 30 yrs that has followed I at least join downwind & seeing as I have been checked by numerous person along they way by CASA & all their previous names etc ALL have expected this to be the case.
I hear/see the airlines doing at least a downwind join where practicable at non controlled AD's & if it where allowed I would bet my last dollar that these guys would be joining base where possible to save time/money, they don't so regs or nor regs that's good enough for me:ok:



CW

[gadude]

Thanks for those last 2 post, that cleared a few things up in my mind anyway,.

Capt wally, again not to take the mickey OR being disrespectfull, apart from it being law, why would it be saver to join down wind rather than base when we do comunicate?? why would it be more dangerous to join base in aussie while it is alowed in NZ?

Please dont give me the "because it is unprofesional etc" because thats not what i am after, we already establised that.


If i am joining down wind i will still have to keep my eyes and ears open as to were to slot in.

I am happy that it is the law now, and will follow it, but i also like to know WHY.

cheers and tanks in advance:ok:

[Hasselhof]

I hate the idea of becoming one of those spelling and grammar nazi posters, but gadude, please try just that little bit harder.

[xxgoldxx]

the rules for driving used to say that .08 was fine to drive and seatbelts weren't required....

laws change, people change, situations change.. common sense SHOULD prevail... if I can make the situation safer and easier for everyone involved then I will join base any day..

just to be politically correct though lets broadcast it as late downwind turning base etc just in case the jepps reciters have the recorder on eh !!

[stick&rudder15]

It seems you guys love having arguments about this 3 legs of the circuit business for fu*k sake get over it move on. Once again some one wants to know info about a company and then an argument starts about circuits,radiocalls ect.

[gadude]

Take it easy,we did move on. last post was 6 off november:ok: And the jobs were covered. Old mate is probleby moved on into twins by now and well on his way into airlines.
Things move fast in aussie lol

Cheers:ok:

[toronto_flyer]

Gadude, just in case that last question you asked was unresolved, it seems pretty obvious that joining downwind = more time in the circuit = greater situational awareness = safety = everyone gets to go home at the end of the day. Now that's professional :ok:

toronto_flyer

[werbil]

and more time in the circuit equals more time in a the airspace with the highest traffic density. Think about it - flying three full legs of the circuit probably doubles the amount of time in the circuit compared to an aircraft joining on a base leg. Using that assumption, if adding an extra leg to the circuit does not halve the collision risk per second for the entire flight time in the circuit it has to be counter productive to safety.

I would be very interested to see an objective study on the actual risks of various circuit joining procedures. And I would suggest that if such a study was conducted the risks would be found to be very different in a circuit which has mainly arrivals / departures compared to one which has mainly circuit traffic.

[gadude]

Well one could do a study comparing NZ circuits incidents vs aussie circuits incidents. In NZ one can join on base.

The Law is Law so we have to fly by them, but I still can't see why joining base is more dangerous than joining downwind.
the point about having more situational awareness because you spent more time in the circuit is a little funny,
If you need to joing downwind and are flying down wind to make it safer because now you can sort your self and the rest off the circuit out, than what have you been doing on your aproach?

I can imagen that everyone else, just like me, makes a mental picture off whats going on way before you get to the circuit. You talk to others etc.

And so we continue the circuit discussion:D

For me, I fly now 3 legs, for a number off reasons. Its proffesional (in aussie that is) it's the law, and it keeps capt wally very happy:ok: