grumpy at aircraft when asked for boarding pass. why?

[galanjal]

I always welcome people onto the aircraft with a smile and a genuine welcome. I read the name on the boarding card and make small talk and then direct you down to your seat. what i would love to know, and it's an honest question, why do so many of you now ignore me/throw your coat at me/ tut and say rude things about me for asking for said boarding card. just a question, perhaps I'm old school?

[JEM60]

It's simply because people are generally rude, arrogant, and disrespectful these days, I'm afraid. Fortunately some of us prefer to be polite to Cabin Crew, as I always have been, and have therefore always had the pleasure of a pleasant conversation, laugh and a joke with you guys and gals over the years, and, as a result, I get good service from your good selves.
I cannot understand the mentality of some of my fellow passengers.
But then, I am married to a beautiful woman, comfortably retired, love travelling and flying, so I don't have any reason not to be polite,I guess. Fraid you're aways going to get them,but that's life these days.

[BladePilot]

Probably because most SLF can't figure out why you're asking to see the boarding pass stub? it's never explained clearly that you as a responsible crew member need to verify they are getting on the correct aircraft.

I once overheard a gruff pax mumbling 'I didn't need her to tell me what
f:mad:ing seat I'm in I can read numbers me'self'

Respect to you for doing a damn challanging job:ok:

[pbrookes]

I was flying to Edinburgh on SleazyJet out of Luton a few years ago, when both the Edinburgh and delayed Glasgow flights were called for boarding at the same time. Everyone handed their re-useable Boarding Card in at the gates, and proceeded to the two 737s parked next to each other.

Sure enough, as they started the headcount on the plane, we had one too many!! The Glasgow flight was one light!

One red-faced passenger left the aircraft to cheers and clapping from the other passengers!:oh:

[Final 3 Greens]

I read the name on the boarding card and make small talk and then direct you down to your seat. what i would love to know, and it's an honest question, why do so many of you now ignore me/throw your coat at me/ tut and say rude things about me for asking for said boarding card. just a question, perhaps I'm old school?

I would ask you to take into account the experience the passenger may have been through for the previous couple of hours, with a lot of security type of checks. They may feel that they have had their details etc checked enough times.

If they live in another country, they may not be used to having their boarding passes checked at the door and may consider you to be officious and exceeding reasonable practice (although UK airlines have to do this.)

Also. what kind of travellers are you welcoming?

If I am on holiday, I'll gladly take the time to make small talk with you, but if I am going/coming on business, I probably won't wish to.

Sure, I'll be polite to you (and attentive for the safety brief), but the rest of the time I'll have a lot more on my mind (and coming back, be very tired after a tough trip and probably just wishing to be left alone.)

[denis555]

I hink the above answers are right especially the "why do they need to tell me where my seat is I can find it myself!" reaction as it is not always realised that this is a final security check.

[SpringHeeledJack]

galanjal

Thank goodness you are the way you are! :ok: In my experience over the last few years the CC are surly, unsmiling and generally unwelcoming, almost giving you the feeling that you are bothering them...... I have always been polite, say please and thankyou, so it can't be that they are reacting to my behaviour.

There are exceptions and these people stand out a mile. Perhaps there really are just too many ignorant passengers about and maybe too many disillusioned CC because of this. It would seem to be the younger ones who are less friendly in general.

It WOULD be intelligent of the airlines to inform all passengers that they will be required to be checked on entering the aircraft, as most people have put the boarding stub in a pocket after being checked at the gate. I remember up until recently the persons passport was required and that caused many a passenger to mumble under their breath in frustration.


Regards


SHJ

[hugel]

I don't think it is having the stub checked at the aircraft that is the problems, its the queuing up to get a passport check and boarding card stamped, then again to to pass the barrier and receive the stub, and then again to queue on get on the aircraft, all while trying to juggle bags and pieces of paper. That coupled with the nonallocated seating bundle to get on some LC carriers can try the patience of a weekly commuter saint. That in no way excuses rudeness. There must be an easier way...

hugel

[nivsy]

Must say I tend to agree with Final 3's comments. I think many of us dont go out to come across deliberately rude (or appear to be so) but frankly the airport experience is for some of us not what it used to be and now we are actually just happy to get on board probably just relieved that the air operator is still flying and that we might just make the slot time allocated.

On a slightly different note your own attitude is very much appreciated - perhaps it would be nice if some of your colleagues in the trade also had the same courtesy - I would say 7 times out of 10 when boarding with a variety of operators the CC are busy chatting amongst themselves and shall we say not necessarily providing an in flight service to be proud of.


Nivsy

[Seat62K]

I think Ryanair gate announcements inform passengers that boarding passes will be checked again on entering the aircraft but I can't imagine that this is taken in by all passengers.
I once wondered why my boarding pass was checked at the top of the airbridge/jetway and again at the aircraft door but when I queried it was told that someone with access to the tarmac - such as an airside worker - could board the aircraft via the steps which connect the airbridge with the tarmac. Non-allocated seating presumably would make it less likely that such a person was discovered - unless the 'plane was full! - and so I can appreciate why airlines which operate such seating are particularly keen to ensure that only the correct people are permitted onboard. (Obviously, with non-allocated seating, airlines such as Ryanair and easyJet have no idea who is sitting where. I remember a farce a year or two ago on a STN-AMS easyJet flight with one passenger too many; it took absolutely ages to locate this person, there was recount after recount. On this 35 minute flight the delay made quite a difference. All credit to the staff for not departing before the issue was resolved, but allocated seating would have made the situation easier to deal with. Rant over!)
P.S. I recently saw a cabin attendant at the door of an easyJet aircraft at Madrid ask to see a passenger's passport. I wasn't asked nor were any of the passengers immediately ahead of me (apart from this one person). Curious! What was that all about?!

[TheWestCoast]

Yes - not always intentional "bad manners".

When flying domestically in the US, boarding passes are checked at the gate, but not again at the door of the plane. For international flights, the passes are checked again at the door, which a frequent domestic traveler may forget, having put the pass away while walking down the jetbridge.

An example - a couple of years ago I flew AA LAX-JFK-LHR - we were late arriving JFK, requiring a sprint across JFK from one terminal to another (not very familiar with that airport, either), out of security and then back in. As one of the last pax to make it to the LHR-bound flight, I arrived at the gate breathing heavily having run the last stretch from security with untied shoelaces. I presented the boarding pass to the staff at the gate, then put the boarding pass away as I made my way down the jetbridge, attempting to reorganize my shoelaces and trying to make sure I had not left anything at TSA during my rushed security check.

Upon arrival at the door of the plane, I stepped inside, still attempting to catch my breath, to be met by a FA who demanded my boarding pass. When I looked at her quizzically, unable to get any words out, she asked, in the manner of someone who was about to call security - "do we have a problem, sir?". :*:*

In my opinion - totally out of line, mean spirited and lacking any empathy to someone who was obviously extremely rushed to make the connection. I don't think I've ever been made to feel less welcome boarding a plane.

[PaperTiger]

I don't think I've ever been made to feel less welcome boarding a plane.Obviously you don't fly AA very often :ouch: . Or UA, or NW or ... you get the picture.

Hosties are now part of "security" y'know, and boy do some of them relish the power(sic).

[el #]

Hi, it is absolutely true that not all airlines do check passes at the door.

In fact in Latin America none of the ones I took did, even on intercontinental flights. Same in Europe. So it's quite possible that many pax don't know that they will be asked. I try to remember which ones do ask and check the preceeding people to see if I need to show it.

I think airlines that wants no delay in checking passes at the door should have the gate agent remind pax to keep it handy.

[SXB]

My own view on this is a number of the blank responses from passengers is probably because a number of them may not understand the language in which they are being addressed. Although that said, if I board an aircraft in deepest Mongolia I should really have a fair idea of what the FA is saying as I pass through the door......

In my experience over the last few years the CC are surly, unsmiling and generally unwelcoming, almost giving you the feeling that you are bothering them

I fly a couple of hundred sectors per year and I would disagree with that comment. Some airlines are better than others, sometimes they vary in the same airline but generally speaking the CC I come across are friendly, welcoming and helpful. Of course there may only be 4 or 5 of them for approaching 200 people so there is a limit as to what they can do for you on a 90 minute flight.

[hippotamus]

As someone who is NEVER intentionally rude to CC ( I need you to nurse me through as a nervous passenger!), I'd just like to add my 2 cents worth.
You mention that you great each passenger personally , I don't know how you address peopl but personally I loathe being addressed by my first name by someone who doesn't know me.
Possibly a cultural thing , and I realise that you haven't said in what manner you address people , but it would make me cringe ( not rudely, you understand!)

[SXB]

You mention that you great each passenger personally , I don't know how you address peopl but personally I loathe being addressed by my first name by someone who doesn't know me

The only time I can remember being addressed by my first name was on a Albanian Airlines flight years ago, I don't recall it happening on any other European airline.

[denis555]

I always find that the CC saying goodbye to me as I leave the plane a bit embarrassing - but only if I have never spoken to them on the entire flight.

I often have two or three CC saying goodbye - which I suppose id freindly and in the right spirit - but I do find it odd.

[boardingpass]

I guess most pax don't realise that the cabin crew are the ones who are ultimately responsible for the security of the plane - and our lives depend on it! The gate-staff aren't going to be flying with any potential security-threats or be the ones to sort out why there aren't enough seats for the passengers. So to grumpy SLF, give us a break, we are doing our jobs for our and your safety. Keep your boarding pass in your hand so you don't get all flustered trying to find it in your oversized hand-luggage.

The number of times we catch passengers at the door who are trying to board the wrong plane is frightening.

[deltayankee]

To be fair some of the grumpy pax are connecting from a sleepless overnight intercontinental flight and are just tired. It's hard to join in the small talk at 6am when you havn't slept for 24 hours.

But the check is necessary. I was once on a plane where four people were fighting over the same two seats. It turned out that two were on the wrong plane.

And it *is* necessary for some people to be told which number their seat is. Some are just stupid but many more can't read the number without their glasses on. Everyone should follow the example of Dnata at DBX who print the seat number VERY BIG. Airplane makers could also speed boarding by making the seat numbers more readable. On a Fokker F70, for example, short people can't see the numbers unless they stand on the seat.

[el #]

boardingpass, nobody is saying that passengers are in the right of being grumpy or that checking the pass should not be done at the door.

Simply it is being pointed out some reasons why some can seem surprised and not so fast in responding - little experience flying, fatigue, and IMHO lack of consistency and information between airlines when it comes to this practice.

Again in other words: do not expect that your pax will know that they need to keep pass in hand when taking your particular flight, because no effort is done in writing or verbally to inform them about that.

[christep]

I guess most pax don't realise that the cabin crew are the ones who are ultimately responsible for the security of the plane - and our lives depend on it! The gate-staff aren't going to be flying with any potential security-threats or be the ones to sort out why there aren't enough seats for the passengers. So to grumpy SLF, give us a break, we are doing our jobs for our and your safety.

The number of times we catch passengers at the door who are trying to board the wrong plane is frightening.I'm sure it's because I'm a naive SLF, but so that I won't be so naive next time could you please explain how a passenger is more of a security threat boarding the wrong plane than they are boarding the right plane? When you send them off to the correct gate they suddenly become "safe" again? How does that work?

And, assuming is does indeed work then surely the way for us all to board safely is to put the wrong signs up at the gate for each flight. That way we'll all board the wrong planes, be sent off back the right ones and all be much more safe and secure as a result.

Alternatively, please think a bit before wheeling out the "security" excuse - it is used so often these days in contexts where in fact there is absolutely no security issue at all that it has become like the little boy crying "Wolf!".

[Llademos]

christep,

Pax on wrong plane = hold bags on right plane = pax not travelling with bags = Lockerbie

Ll

[nivsy]

yet have a look around the major airports - how many bags go astray - yet I assume(!) these bags travel without the pax who own them - come to think about it there were so many bags kicking around close to the belts at T4 the other I could have picked up many without anyone batting an eye.

Bags often travel without their owners. Thought it was the job now of the super dooper screening to ensure that all bags with or without the owner is safe.

[el #]

llademos, actually the equation should be:

Bomb in a bag not belonging to anybody, put on a plane by someone with access to system = Lockerbie.

All the other cases will just result in confusion, lost bags, perhaps lost flights. Something that happen thousand times each day in the world.
Then, you will see that airlines don't have much of a problem in flying bags (and huge amounts of cargo) without the owner being on the same a/c. Will you claim that it's safe because this stuff is screened? Lucky you if you believe so.

In my opinion it is true that security is routinely used as a blanket excuse for a variety of practices, most of them quite unconveniente for pax, however that is not the subject of this discussion.

[el #]

come to think about it there were so many bags kicking around close to the belts at T4 the other I could have picked up many without anyone batting an eye.

So in fact, in Latin America (perhaps other places too), tags are checked against passes when leaving the pick-up area. At first I was surprised to see that, now I realize it decreases the chances for a casual thief to be succesful.

We (EU, USA) have a fixation with liquids and spend billions to make sure one buys drinks and food only from the shops that 'surprise' are part of the system. They are trying to prevent an easy and vile method to steal from others.

Guess which approach do I like better.

[radeng]

I've seen pax get to the 'plane door and the CC find they're getting on the wrong flight - and that in the UK. Normally it's when there's chaos around the desk at the door entering the jetbridge and someone slips through. They're rushing so they get to the destination earlier.......

[Final 3 Greens]

I've seen pax get to the 'plane door and the CC find they're getting on the wrong flight - and that in the UK. Normally it's when there's chaos around the desk at the door entering the jetbridge and someone slips through. They're rushing so they get to the destination earlier.......

Airports can really increase the probability of this happening, e.g. putting flights to Belfast and Belfast (Harbour) on adjacent gates :ugh:

[malc4d]

Are you saying that when they put my boarding card through the machine at the top of the bridge and check my card / passport / name, it wont tell them i'm boarding the wrong plane :eek::eek: And only the eagle eyed CC can pick that up !!!!!!

Some airlines do say over the PA "please keep your boarding pass out for inspection at the plane" but not all.

[Skipness One Echo]

1) Queue for fast bag drop after check in. Answer the same questions again.
2) Manage to get around the small Asian teenager in a bright yellow sweatshirt several sizes too big waving a bag at me. He reminds me about the 100 ml rule. His disappointment at failing to impede my progress is tempered when he manages to prevent an old lady procedding to security as her bag was a centimetre too large for the cradle.
3) Belt round my neck and camera out the rucksack as electronic jiggery pokery confuses security when cluttered with the rest of my gear. Amazed that the people in front appear never to have flown and hold everyone up.
4) Find myself in the Duty Free shop hopping on one leg attempting to put my shoes on.
5) Find departure gate and am afraid to relax as I need to show my ID yet again. Depending on the airline I might have to show boarding card and ID at the gate and again at the aircraft 100 yards later on the bridge. That ID might be my passport to get me from London to Glasgow.

By the time you tell me where my seat is, I have had that ID checked 4-5 times. Modern air travel is just a stressful rat race, the Tube is more relaxing. it's not personal, but by the time I get to you, I'm in no mood to be stopped again alas. ( I don't argue that it may be necessary due to inconsistencies at airports. )

[merlinxx]

Well said.

It is up to the Airport Operator to provide info on so called security prior to boarding.

I have been around this business for over 40 years, all European/US/CA/ME carriers I have flown on as pax (even staff & Dead Head) have checked boarding pass on boarding. This is Company SOP in most air carriers of all designations.

The Cabin Crew are there for Your Security, Safety & Survival. This is a legal requirement, and they are trained and licensed accordingly.

Perhaps the role of the Cabin Crew is not adequately made obvious to the paying pax. They have control of the Cabin, you/me as pax do not. In the event of a disrupted arrival, the Acft Commander (aka Capt) devolves command to the senior surviving Cabin Crew member once the acft has come to rest.

If you have a bitch/whinge etc., suggest you look first at your mood/attitude of mind and adjust your present thinking. Maybe a lesson or three in meditation techniques would not go amiss?

No I am not Cabin Crew, have controlled many in the past, trained some, respect them all, even the Old Bints on AA/DL/US/NW etc!:E:ok:

[el #]

Last post by merlinxx is a classic example of adamant unability to listen while being excellent at repeating own generic arguments (with a nice amout on self-imposed authority and condescending attitude) no matter how applicable to the present discussion.

Multiple people has reported that NOT ALL airlines do check at the door - merlinxx tells us it never happened in 40 years, so "we" must have been in a state of trance when boading ?!?

Nobody has questioned crew responsabilities in safety and their right to check passes anytime - yet merlinxx feels the need to lecture us about that - with flashing colours s nonetheless.

Multiple people pointed out how stressful has become air travel today - merlinxx reminds us of the benefits of meditation.

Easy to see how apt you was for "controlling" people Mr merlinxx.

[AMEandPPL]

with flashing colours nonetheless

The use of different colours is a valid way of highlighting those parts of the text on which the poster wishes to place emphasis.

The multiple gross spelling errors of illiteracy do not need highlighting; they stick out like a sore thumb already.

[boardingpass]

christep,
I don't think this is the best place to discuss security in detail, but perhaps someone who is not authorised to fly and who therefore doesn't have a boarding pass, might be trying to get on to my flight... or someone with a domestic boarding pass might be trying to board my international flight to flee the country. :=

But, no, we're not worried about poor Mrs O'Reilly getting a bit lost without her glasses and trying to board the flight to Bucharest instead of Belfast. But still better to help her at the door rather than at the 'Ladies and Gentlement, welcome to Bucharest' stage. Don't you agree?

We're not the only line of defence, but rather we work with the airport security and gate staff to make sure everyone is getting to the right place. Yes, some airlines operate differently, but the cabin crew are still the last line of defence to stop someone who is not authorised to board from entering. And as we're the one's who'll be flying on the plane, and the ones responsible for safety and sorting out any problems in the cabin, we like to take extra special care and insist we see your boarding pass. If someone does manage to get on the plane without a boarding pass or the wrong boarding pass, it's of course the cabin crew who get the blame.

As for stress, I, too, absolutely hate travelling as a passenger. I know it's an awful experience. However, whilst I know what air-travel entails, it still doesn't really mean you can be rude to the poor cabin crew for doing their job - it is the first time they are meeting you, and the first time they are seeing the boarding pass. Why not take the opportunity to smile and make a good impression? They'll probably be smiling even though you might be the 500th person they've said hello to, and it might be after having already worked 10 hours after having woken up at 5am...

I'm not defending the sometimes rather chaotic conditions in airports, nor am I saying all passengers should know (no number of announcements or signs will be able to inform everyone), but for those who are reading this, I recommend you keep your boarding pass handy... It is, after all, quite literally, a "BOARDING PASS"... something you'll probably need for BOARDING... :ok:

[el #]

I beg you pardon AMEandPPL, truth is the PC I'm using now has no spell checker installed. I always use one out of respect to "your" language that obviously isn't "mine".

Note however that I will admire your language skills only when you'll be able to achieve similar results in "my" language or any of the other three that I command.

I think however your excellence, just like merlinxx, is in lecturing the next person with pompous emptiness, regards.

[christep]

christep,
Pax on wrong plane = hold bags on right plane = pax not travelling with bags = LockerbieLlYou are clearly living in the past. How can it not be clear to you that the current bread of religious fanatic is quite happy to die for the cause, so the whole basis of the previous "terrorists will try to get their luggage on the plane without them" school of thought is completely obsolete? You are fighting the last war.

[christep]

christep,
I don't think this is the best place to discuss security in detail, but perhaps someone who is not authorised to fly and who therefore doesn't have a boarding pass, might be trying to get on to my flight... or someone with a domestic boarding pass might be trying to board my international flight to flee the country.Neither of these is an issue of security. The first is an issue of revenue control, the second is an issue for immigration. Neither of them is a threat to the plane.

The fact that you don't appear to understand that demonstrates completely why you should have no part in any security process.

[el #]

christep, the thing is that the airline gets fined if an immigration irregularity happens and possibly even if the regulation authority finds that a pax boarded a wrong domesting flight. If that is right or not, it's immaterial to this discussion.

Once again, nobody is questioning the fact that crew can request to see passes at any time and the pax should be polite in showing it or asking for a little time to find it. Just like in any other normal situation.

If you put the above in discussion, you're opening the way to more lecturing and arrogant attitude that as you can see, never fails to appear.

[christep]

christep, the thing is that the airline gets fined if an immigration irregularity happens and possibly even if the regulation authority finds that a pax boarded a wrong domesting flight. If that is right or not, it's immaterial to this discussion. Indeed - and I have no problem at all with the crew asking to see my boarding pass at the door. What I have a problem with is ignorant cabin crew saying that it is in the interests of our security, which it patently isn't.

[flyflybaby]

what about the people who grumble about having to show their passport at the gate. You would not believe the amount of people that complain. And when you ask if they could possibly open it on the picture page you get looks that could kill. All this is said in the announcment and yet they dont listen:*.
These people are everywhere you just have to smile and grit you teeth because for all the grumpy pax there are many more fantsatic pax out there who do appreciate the job we do.

[christep]

what about the people who grumble about having to show their passport at the gate.Again, no problem. But again, nothing to do with security.

[flyflybaby]

Yes it is, passports and boarding cards an be swapped and people can board a plane they are not supposed to be on. You dont realise how important it is to ceck this. In the airport i work in the airport authority regularly send people on flights who have to swap boarding cards or passports to see if staff are checking them. If those undercover pax get through the gate that staff member WILL be fired.

So yes it is neccessary for security to check a passport at the gate along with the boarding card.

[christep]

So yes it is neccessary for security to check a passport at the gate along with the boarding card.No it is NOT. It is absolutely nothing to do with security. It may be important for the airline's revenue protection or for immigration reasons but neither of these is a security issue.

The fact that it is airline employees running these test just highlights that it is a revenue protection issue. Surely you can understand the difference can't you?

[Final 3 Greens]

all European/US/CA/ME carriers I have flown on as pax (even staff & Dead Head) have checked boarding pass on boarding.

Swiss do not.

Lufthansa do not.

Air Malta do not.

[christep]

American Airlines does not.
Cathay Pacific does, but only to point you at your seat (if you tell them your seat number and clearly know where you are going then they don't require your boarding pass)

[flyflybaby]

No i said airport authority not airline employees. The airport authority is run by the government they dont care if the airline incurs penalties for transporting the wrong passengers. they are there to make sure the security laws are enforced.
what would happen if a pax went through the gate without showing their passport and arrived in their destination to find the passport was left at security. you would have a pax that has travelled without a passport.

that means big trouble wether you believe it or not.

[mutt]

On my last flight outta the USA, immigration cleared, boarding passes checked at the gate, immigration checked passports and boarding cards in the airbridge, cabin crew checked boarding cards at the door. Onboard, cabin attendants collected ALL PASSPORTS for inspection, at this stage we had overstayed our time at that parking gate so the aircraft was repositioned, we then got our passports back.... Total delay almost 2 hours!!!!

Mutt

[christep]

you would have a pax that has travelled without a passport.I'll try just one more time. Please explain to us how a passenger travelling without a passport endangers the security of the flight.

[flyflybaby]

it may or may not affect the security of the flight but it would be a security breach which is apparently very dangerous, dont ask me why,
thats just the way things are.

[christep]

Oh dear. I rest my case.

[PaperTiger]

Wasting your time, Chris. They have been assimilated.

[boardingpass]

christep,
I can't understand why you fail to acknowledge that if someone tries to board an aircraft who is not authorised, it is a matter of security. Are you seriously suggesting we as cabin crew aren't concerned about security? Believe it or not, security and safety are the two things we spend the majority of our time training for, talking about and while as passengers you don't see most of it, it is also what we spend the majority of our time on... There are many people on no-fly lists who, for one reason or another, are not allowed to fly. So, whether it's a stow-away trying to hitch a free ride, or a suicide bomber with a backpack.... either you have a valid boarding pass, or the appropriate authorisation to board, or you're not coming on. I think the majority of the flying public would want that we check you're permitted to board the aircraft and therefore the majority are happy to comply... there's only a few 'holier than thou' such as yourself who seem to think they are above it all... so why not teach us something else now?

[fyrefli]

He's trying to teach you reasoned debate. Unfortunately your latest contribution is so full of unsubstantiated logical jumps I'm not surprised he's given up ;)

Here's a starter for ten:

Which is more dangerous?:

a) a suicide bomber with a backpack and his own boarding card
b) a suicide bomber with a backpack and a boarding card for the wrong flight
c) a suicide bomber with a backpack and no boarding card
d) a suicide bomber with a backpack and someone else's boarding card

??

[boardingpass]

Thanks for your pearl of wisdom Fyrefli! For the rest of cabin crew reading this, let's just smile at the very clever SLF when we next ask "May I see your boarding class please?" :)

[malc4d]

Ok, to all CC or most prob. to their bosses.

If l want to fly a - b but not b-a back, instead of throwing my return half of the ticket away i give it to a friend who wants to fly b-a.
Now we both have passports to show at check-in but the return ticket is in my name, they cant fly.........But surely a bum on the seat is a bum on the seat, does it really matter who's.

Now is this for a security reason or (more likely) a profit reason

[christep]

Thanks for your pearl of wisdom Fyrefli! For the rest of cabin crew reading this, let's just smile at the very clever SLF when we next ask "May I see your boarding class please?"I think that's probably the best course because you clearly don't have any understanding whatsoever of why you are doing it. I'm sure you are concerned about security, but you have clearly demonstrated that you don't have the intelligence to be more than a pawn in the process.

A stowaway hitching a free ride is not in itself a security issue. It is a revenue protection issue, just the same as if I get on a bus without paying.

Checking that somebody has a boarding pass doesn't achieve anything for security. You aren't checking that they are someone who is not allowed to fly, you aren't even checking if they are the person who is named on the boarding pass. And you certainly aren't checking whether they have in their possession any means to disrupt the security of the flight.

The only purpose that is served by checking a boarding pass at the door is to be a last check that someone is not getting on the wrong plane. This is entirely a revenue protection issue. It has nothing to do with security.

I'm sure all passengers want maximum effort to be made to protect the security of the flight. (Although quite why planes should be singled out rather than all the other places that terrorists could kill hundreds of people very simply is another matter.)

Securing the cockpit door was by FAR the single most significant increase in security since 9/11, thus stopping the plane being taken over and used as a missile.

Once you have done that all you need to do is to try to stop people taking on board the means to destroy the plane mid-flight. Thus, the x-raying of luggage and the WTMD, which are useful security procedures.

The liquids ban, as currently implemented, is not a useful security procedure, as explained by Bruce Schneier, a professional security expert, here (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/09/the_two_classes.html).

[boardingpass]

But surely a bum on the seat is a bum on the seat, does it really matter who's.Well, if they are on a no-fly list, it is a matter of security! Perhaps your mate isn't entitled to purchase a ticket in their own name because on the last flight they were on they got really drunk and tried to open a door (read one example here (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/27/drink.plane.ap/)). Perhaps they've attacked another passenger or physically assaulted a cabin crew or security staff (another example here (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Naomi-Campbell-Pleads-Guilty-To-Assault-Charges-Over-Heathrow-Terminal-5-Bust-Up/Article/200806315011784?f=rss)). Perhaps they've otherwise jeopardised or made a threat against the safety of the plane. Perhaps they're under investigation for a crime and have had their passport confiscated. And if they start getting violent or causing a problem during the flight, guess who's going to have to deal with it?

I work in Europe, so I can't confirm the situation for AA or CX, but if it's an EU-OPS regulated flight, it is a requirement that anyone who enters a plane is authorised to, and therefore it is a requirement that the name on the boarding pass matches the photo ID of the person, and the photo ID of the person matches the person's face. Airlines may differ on how they implement this. On my airline, my colleague at the gate will check the photo ID, and then the cabin crew at the door checks you've been through the normal passenger route in possession of a valid boarding pass (i.e. haven't jumped over the airport fence to get onto the apron or you're not an airside garbage man who's just been made redundant with a score to settle.) It also helps to ensure the pax manifest is accurate. As already said, it helps identify pax who are by accident trying to board the wrong plane (a regular occurrence), and then finally, it lets us separate those who need to turn left from those who need to turn right...

If you only want to go from a to b, one-way tickets are available on most airlines (provided you can meet immigration rules - for example, many countries require tourists have an outbound ticket).

Otherwise, you're always welcome to take the train (although I'm sure they'll still ask to see your ticket). :ugh:

[fyrefli]

Thanks for your pearl of wisdom Fyrefli! For the rest of cabin crew reading this, let's just smile at the very clever SLF when we next ask "May I see your boarding class please?"

BP, if I'm ever boarding one of your flights, I'll not only be one of those walking up the steps / down the bridge with his boarding pass stub in his hand but will also be presenting it to you in my long accustomed manner, placed next to my photo in my opened passport. I have no problem with this.

I do have an issue with CC who think they are better than their passengers. This comes from 1) several years spent earlier in my life in high quality customer service roles and 2) a couple of experiences where obnoxious CC's attitudes have been counter-productive.

[Final 3 Greens]

Boardingpass

Quite often rail tickets are not inspected, e.g. my journey on the Heathrow Express yesterday.

Nonetheless, the NRCoC of the UK ATOC says

A ticket may only be used by the person for whom it has been bought. It may not be resold or passed on to anyone else unless this is specifically allowed by the terms and conditions which apply to that ticket and which are set out in the notices and publications of the relevant Train Company.

Clearly this a revenue protection step - even though a train ticket does not include the name of the passenger :confused:

If the airlines did not run some type of revenue protection scheme, then people would book early and resell, at a profit, on eBay, just like ticket touts.

So there is a strong element of revenue protection in airline procedures, which makes sense.

or you're not an airside garbage man who's just been made redundant with a score to settle

Good job that airside garbage men, with a score to settle, can't afford free tickets from a well known loco :ugh:

Can we just agree that the reason boarding passes are checked at the door by UK carrier is that the UK authorities require this?

And as many people from the rest of Europe say, the UK is different in many ways.....

[christep]

Well, if they are on a no-fly list, it is a matter of security!To some extent yes, although for people allegedly there for terrorist reasons but with no previous convictions then if there isn't enough evidence to jail them then it is, in my view, an unacceptable infringement of their civil rights to ban them from flying "on a hunch". Clearly this doesn't apply to people who are on the list for a proven previous record.
it is a requirement that the name on the boarding pass matches the photo ID of the person, and the photo ID of the person matches the person's face. Airlines may differ on how they implement this. On my airline, my colleague at the gate will check the photo ID, and then the cabin crew at the door checks you've been through the normal passenger route in possession of a valid boarding pass (i.e. haven't jumped over the airport fence to get onto the apron or you're not an airside garbage man who's just been made redundant with a score to settle.) It also helps to ensure the pax manifest is accurate.You might wish to point out to the people in your airline that in the days of "print your own" boarding passes there is one very crucial step missing:

No-one checks that the name on the boarding pass (which is trivial to manipulate before printing it at home) matches the name on the passenger manifest (i.e. the name in which the ticket was bought, which is where the checking against the no-fly list is done).

This is such a glaringly obvious hole that it renders the whole process useless for increasing security.

Again in the days of print your own boarding passes, your check at the door does NOT achieve what you say about people somehow getting there without going through the normal processes. The check that DOES achieve that to some extent is the headcount match against the manifest. But even then there is still a glaring hole in that if it is possible to get in that way then it is also likely possible that someone can get out that way, so two people can effectively swap on the airbridge. So again, the check at the door doesn't achieve anything much for security (although it does for revenue protection).

[Skipness One Echo]

The reason that both Ryanair, easyJet and flybe insist on photo ID is REVENUE PROTECTION. It means if I book a cheap fare I can afford to miss and give to a mate for free, they won't allow it and inist he books full whack if he wants to travel.

This is why I much prefer BA and bmi who don't add ANOTHER layer of fussiness onto my journey within my own country. ( BA sometimes need the bankcard used to make the booking but that's not always the case. )

Unless the girl at the gate is a moron, there is no real reason why the cabin crew should need to recheck the documentation 30 seconds later. In Paris at CDG last week, I met a G4S man complete with rucksack, clearly leaving the area with his shift finished, on the walk from the gate down the long secure passageway to the airbridge. He gives me a funny look, stops me in my tracks and asks for ID! That's what happens when you wear a hoody when not at work in a suit. I gritted my teeth and presented my ID AGAIN....

You are making compliant sheep of us all damn you. * Baaaaaah*

There is a corrosive effect over time :
"May I see your papers?" "They are in order, you MAY proceed."
"May I see your papers?" "They are in order, you MAY proceed."
"May I see your papers?" "They are in order, you MAY proceed."

Minimise the above as it's a pain, just remove the duplication and be consistent, because when different carriers do this differently you know it's not about security.

[boardingpass]

No-one checks that the name on the boarding pass (which is trivial to manipulate before printing it at home) matches the name on the passenger manifest (i.e. the name in which the ticket was bought, which is where the checking against the no-fly list is done).
Actually, it is! When you present your printed-at-home boarding pass to the gate staff, they check that the name on the boarding pass matches the name on the manifest, and sometimes cross-checks when they scan the bar-code (if fitted), and then matches it to your photo ID. So don't worry, you can rest assured we're on top of it.

As for your old 'double wammy swap a boarding pass on an air-bridge trick', I'm much more worried about the quality of the Captain's crew meal as a threat to flight safety. Do you really want the cabin crew to check your ID at the door as well?

Hello sir, welcome on board, may I see your boarding pass and ID, please? Thank you, although this photo doesn't really look a lot like you, have you lost some hair? Well yes, that would be from all this stress we put you under when flying... Enjoy your flight. :)

[Rainboe]

galanjal, don't forget a lot of people are very anxious of flying. And after a LOT of hassle and queueing to get down the jetty...suddenly there is the door of the plane! Anxiety levels have gone instantly up...this is THE plane......it could be THE plane they die in! They are already getting into a state, and this could be a surprisingly high proportion of the passengers. And then they are to the front of the queue and see the cabin crew. And there is a very smart lady with a beaming natural smile. I think many of us forget how important that smile is! 'Why, if she is happy to travel, so should I be!'.

Never underestimate the importance of that welcoming smile. It is the first thing they see when they get on in an accelerating anxious state, even if it is hidden, and it is instantly calming and changes the perceived atmosphere of the plane immediately. And a little bit of small talk completes the picture and does no harm whatsoever.

The trouble is doing it 4 or 6 times a day! Respect!

[christep]

Actually, it is! When you present your printed-at-home boarding pass to the gate staff, they check that the name on the boarding pass matches the name on the manifest, and sometimes cross-checks when they scan the bar-code (if fitted), and then matches it to your photo ID. So don't worry, you can rest assured we're on top of it.I guess that's good to know, although I haven't seen that happen on any airline that I've travelled on recently (CX, BA, AA).
As for your old 'double wammy swap a boarding pass on an air-bridge trick', I'm much more worried about the quality of the Captain's crew meal as a threat to flight safety.
Slightly confused here. In an earlier post you said:then the cabin crew at the door checks you've been through the normal passenger route in possession of a valid boarding pass (i.e. haven't jumped over the airport fence to get onto the apronSo it isn't clear to me whether you're worried about this or not.

But anyway, as far as I am concerned this is all rather academic since, to the best of my knowledge, no terrorist has ever taken over a plane by virtue of pretending to be someone else. They all do it in their own name. Once a terrorist is on a watchlist then he loses his value and they'll just send another one.

The key issues for security (as opposed to revenue assurance) are:
- stop people accessing the cockpit (fixed)
- stop people bringing on board materials which could be used to destroy the plane (largely fixed, but with an overkill of huge inconvenience for passengers through the liquids ban, shoes off, and so on with no incremental benefit)

It doesn't matter if someone is on a terrorist watchlist if they are not able to bring onto the plane any means of destroying it.

[malc4d]

boardingpass
You must only travel with a staff discount or free....:)

Oneway tickets on most airlines cost a-hell of a lot more than a return ticket.
And in the days of it all being done by computors and printers, ( i even put the information in myself online ), why should it cost soooooooooo much to change the name of the passenger ??

[PaperTiger]

If the airlines did not run some type of revenue protection scheme, then people would book early and resell, at a profit, on eBayWhich until a few years ago they did, eBay had an entire category for it. Before that there were classified ads in local papers offering the same, and not necessarily for a profit just recouping outlay.

Now, and I'm quite willing to be proven wrong here, I don't think anybody ever hijacked or otherwise impeded a flight while using one of these 'gray market' tickets.

Checking a BP on entry to the plane ensures the passenger is authorized (ie. has paid) to fly and is boarding the correct flight. End of story. Some airlines simply don't bother without any apparent ill effects.

[TheWestCoast]

In response to PaperTiger, I'm on AA and other airlines a lot and, having worked with AA folks in the past on some business projects, I consider that airline's staff to generally be the most professional and helpful of all the major carriers. What annoyed the most about that experience was the way that, after having completed the airline passenger's equivalent of a triathlon (and i'm a runner, a family toting kids and assorted accoutrements would never have made it) across JFK, the FA who "greeted" me did so with contempt and made me feel like I was a troublemaker.:(

It may or may not have been her own company's issues that resulted in the delayed arrival of my flight from LAX but I was too winded to point that out to her at the time.:rolleyes:

While I'm here - other things that FAs do that cause annoyance...the AF FA who shook me awake for dinner (isn't that against all airline policies?) soon take off from CDG. Nothing is more annoying than when this happens on a return trip from a VERY busy overseas trip with minimal sleep, as is typical in my line of work.:zzz:

Also, on a 2/3 full UA 757 out of DEN once, I took my seat in the last row of the plane (the love 'em or hate 'em seats, personally, I prefer them on a less than full plane as they tend to be quieter and will gladly select them online, as I had in this case) and the FA asked me to move forward because of "weight and balance issues".

Now, I've been asked to move because of weight and balance on RJs and other small aircraft and have been more than happy to comply, and somebody more informed than me can correct me if they wish, but I believe this was a complete lie in this situation on this type of aircraft.:=

We all know, FAs like those last seats for themselves so they can eat out of tupperware and read US Weekly.:hmm: Not wanting to disregard the direction of an FA, I did move forward (2 rows;), thereby preventing a tailstrike on take off and all sorts of trim problems, I am sure). Guess who took my seat?

[stanleystan]

It's quite simple really. I'm told I HAVE to check boarding passes at the door. I don't care what other airlines do i'm told to do it! I'd say 40% of my time spent boarding is used up with people argueing they don't need to show it etc. If i ask for it i need to see it end of!!! Why do people have to complicate things?

[boardingpass]

You must only travel with a staff discount or free....But that doesn't mean I don't know that most airlines nowadays sell most tickets on a one way fare basis (i.e. usually half the price of return). I'm not sure where you're based, but in the last say 5 years, whenever I've bought domestic tickets in America, intra-Europe, Oz and NZ, they've always been one way fares only. The only time I've seen one-way tickets being ridiculously expensive compared with return tickets was on a couple of legacy airlines who obviously haven't yet responded to market forces (such as Alitalia) and I think I remember SAS and Swiss being like that the last time I checked - but they may well have now updated. You can certainly buy transatlantic flights one-way at half price of return (promoted heavily outbound US) and I've bought one-way tickets between Europe and OZ on BA/Qantas at very reasonable prices too. The only problems you might run into are immigration issues if the country requires you to have a confirmed outbound ticket within 90 days when you enter.

I suggest you check with a travel agent if you feel you can't find good deals on one-way fares. (Or you could marry a hostie/airline pilot and travel with them!)

Regardless, you'll probably still need to show your boarding pass when boarding... :8

[Wibblemonster]

This post is not meant as an attempt at trolling

I travel weekly on a domestic carrier in the UK & the reason I'm grumpy by the time I get to the plane is for the following reasons:

1> The Airport security is a total joke, & the security staff make you feel like a terrorist when you go through the scanners - yes I know we "have" to have some security in this day & age, but a few members of staff rival the gestapo while performing their duties.

2> The great Airport rip off - you can't take liquids into departures sir - its a "security" risk (infact I've witnessed Sleazy-Jet CC attempting to sneak some through the scanners, only to be picked up & given a stern telling off "you should know better" made me smile, especially when her captain, who was putting his shoes on next to me said "Silly bint, we told her not to bother" – slightly relvent to this post, but funny none the less) - anyway you get through to departures, you are a captive audience & get your pants pulled down for a Latte & a sandwich

3> The Airline/Airport lying to you/not informing you about the delay on your flight - ah yes, your flight is due to depart at 19:15, you wait in departures like a good little boy, watching the screens, you notice the clock rolling on to 19:00 - hmmm, I should be at the gate by now, but the board says "wait in departures" - I smell a rat... so you wait a bit longer - 19:10 - Garbled tannoy "Your flight has been delayed till 20:15" - ok, so its an hour late, no biggie. You sit back down & wait for the new departure time. 20:15 rolls by and a new tannoy blares through the departure lounge that the flight is going to be delayed a further hour and a half. Now I'm pretty sure that the Airline/Airport staff already knew the flight was going to be 2hrs 30mins late, but they don't want to tell you that at check in as you are likely to kick off at the check in desk & the poor check in staff don't want angry customers interfering with their discussion of the latest lipstick colours available from Alpha Airport shopping (other airport shops are not available) – oh and they would have to give you some refreshment vouchers, but this way they dont... grrrr!

4> You finally make it to the Plane, you get a lame ass excuse about the plane going tech & they are exceptionally apologetic, however a cup of tea is still £2:50, but comes with a free smile from the CC.. that’s ok then

So there you go, thats why some of us are a little grumpy when we are greeted by the face of the airline and asked for our boarding pass. I myself try not to be rude to the CC onboard, I was taught that manners cost nothing & if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing (some may say that applies to this post, but as a PAX/SLF - terms that annoy me tbh - I was asked for reasons for grumpy-ness), I just show my boarding pass, sit down, shut the fudge up & wait for the seatbelt signs to go off so I can drone out the sound of the engines with my ipod. DONE!

[Final 3 Greens]

have flown more than once so l know that l must show my B/P when getting on the plane, and always have it ready to show complete with a smile.....

Then be prepared for very confused crew when you board this side of the pond, as most airlines in Europe, don´t check them at that stage.

Of course, many aircraft are destroyed every year and millions of passengers flown to the wrong destination as a result of this oversight

[Skipness One Echo]

As a frequent flier and having flown with more than a handsworth of different airlines from Ryanair to Air France in the last twelve months, the amazing lack of consistency is appaling. Some airlines trust the gate agent on the airbridge to not allow randoms onto the plane and yet others insist on checking my pass less than 30 seconds afterwards as I board. I had an experience with BA in Aberdeen last year where they had told Aviance to check ID at the gate on domestic flights.....fortunately for me they accepted a bank card (!) It was very Ryanair.....

The "just obeying orders" and then blatantly making up reasons to play up on security yet again is soul destroying. It's like all those people who RISK THEIR LIVES taxi-ing on airlines that allow you to use the mobile when clear of the runway. Please stop treating us like naughty children. OK it's not the FA's fault buy come on guys we're not thick. It's the blatant bull*** reasons that upsets me, as if we all only fly once a year and don't experience other carriers!

[Beer_n_Tabs]

Hey, how about putting a damm big notice at the bottom of the airstair
PLEASE HAVE BOARDING PASS READY TO SHOW.......AGAIN ! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Can you please go and stand over in the corner and have a word with yourself.

If airlines implemented something as ridiculously simple as that it would solve the problem and thus get rid of threards like this where people slag each other off.

But I guess then there would be opportunity to start a thread for people to complain about the large amount of signs they have to read prior to boarding a flight.

I.E "it is so stressful, I turn up at the airport and theres damn signs pointing me into a car park, then when I enter the terminal (checking for Arrival or Departure sign) I have to look for a DAMN sign telling me where my airline check in desk is.... blah blah etc etc.... then to my utter AMAZEMENT they have the nerve to think I am stupid by putting a wretched sign at the foot of the stairs asking me to show my boarding card. I am not stupid I have flown on 5000 different carriers in the last fortnight etc etc."

I think I need to get out more :ok:

[Surreyman]

I am very guilty of feeling irritated and grumpy when asked for my boarding card at the door for the following reasons: -
1. I assume I am being asked in case I am too stupid to understand where my seat is (I always try and select a specific seat on line or check in early) - even if its unnallocated seating i.e FR or Ezy I know where I am going. Cabin Crew often come across as condescending or treat you like a child.
2. Having been through security and then having had my B/card checked/scanned/logged at the gate, I can't understand why there needs to be another check a few metres walk/seconds later.
3. On FR & Ezy there is always a mad stampede to grab seats, on BA/BMI and other 'Trad' carriers there always seem to be clods who block the gangway putting stuff in the lockers, so I want to get on and in my seat wthout delay.
The worst part of the flying experience is the waiting/queuing and boarding experience, I want to get this out of the way ASAP.

[flyflybaby]

even if there was a sign at the bottom of the aircraft steps whats the betting anyone would read or even see it.
from my experience people in airports seem unable to read signs and the arrivals and departures screens. you have to do it for them.

[Skipness One Echo]

From my experience once a lot of people get the shiny yellow jacket on and become crew they treat people as if they really are that thick......
NEWSFLASH : I'm not and please stop it. Really.

[boardingpass]

In my experience, many passengers, after they've woken up at 5:30am after a night of packing, getting stuck in traffic, stressing about the time, getting lost in the airport, having their hair-gel taken away from them at security, running to the gate, worried they've lost their passport three times, by the time they get on board, combined with a little less oxygen and a G&T, they do come across a wee dense and say the darndest things.

As for the "another sign" proposal, not everyone speaks English and most people are too busy texting or talking on the phone to notice anyway.

[PAXboy]

multycpl
Hey, how about putting a damm big notice at the bottom of the airstair
PLEASE HAVE BOARDING PASS READY TO SHOW.......AGAIN !
So ... you think that we SLFers actually read notices?????

At my place of work, where many people are arriving at a building they only go to once in - perhaps - five years and need to double check which part of the building they must go to ... they walk right past the noticeboards. We say that, if we had illuminated notices in red flashing neon - some would not see them.

There is no answer to this problem. The various CAA/FAA/JAR/Govts etc. make a slew of regs but, naturally, allow the carrier to instigate their own. NO ONE is going to be able to harmonise them!

Another reason for BPs being checked assiduously in some quarters is that the UK govt levy a fine on carriers that bring in people not entitled to land in the UK. It does not matter if an honest mistake was made, or the person is a stoway - the govt fines the carrier £££. That is more than sufficient to ensure that the carrier checks our BPs all the time. Don't forget that the check agent and gate staff probably belong to an outsourced company and the carrier will not be 100% sure that they have done their job properly. What is the easiest? Check the BP as we step on board.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Would it not be easier to stamp flight and seat number on peoples foreheads?

[Final 3 Greens]

Well I felt pretty grumpy yesterday.

Arriving on a connecting flight, my boarding pass could only be printed at the gate at -40 mins.

The same handling agent wouldn't give me access to the lounge, even though I had a business class ticket (260€ one way), because I didn't have a boarding pass.

The fact that this was caused by their inability to handle their airline appropriately did not worry them one jot.

And the airline staff wonder why we are grumpy when we have been ripped off.

[boardingpass]

Would it not be easier to stamp flight and seat number on peoples foreheads?

I like it... but then they'd be asking us where they're going again. Better to sedate them, shrink-wrap them, then put them through Heathrow Terminal No. 5 baggage handlers...

[Skipness One Echo]

boardingpass with that attitiude I hope you don't work within a mile of a paying customer. Shocking.

[boardingpass]

You're right, Skippy! Please allow me to retract that suggestion. I don't think the poor baggage handlers at Terminal 5 deserve that kind of treatment...

I guess it's harder to get a smile out of some than others...:}

[Der absolute Hammer]

boardingpass

This took place in August.
It might amuse you perhaps?

An elderly Swedish woman tried to get herself on board an international flight by climbing onto an unmanned luggage belt after her suitcase.
The incident happened at Stockholm's Arlanda airport.
The unnamed 78-year-old thought she was just following instructions on how to check in for her flight.
She carefully lay down on the conveyor belt and was whisked into the baggage handling bay where she was rescued by surprised staff.

Possible you were at check in that day?

[TightSlot]

Gosh, Golly - so much emotion over such a minor requirement!!!

Here's a possible scenario for you...


FA: "May I see your Boarding Pass please?"
SLF: "Yes of course - Here it is"
FA: :Thank you"


If we take that exchange as the baseline, it is fascinating to see how complicated, on so many levels, we can all make it. Personally, when working as FA, or traveling as Passenger, I'm happy with both sides of the above, no matter how tired or mishandled I might feel - and it has the advantage of speed. I'm genuinely amazed that it has proved to be such a controversial requirement.

[MancRy]

A few facts......

a) Some people just have a problem with authority. Some posters on this thread show classic symptoms. Most crew don't weild their authority in a "power trip" way but they have authority.

b) Checking boarding cards will have some type of revenue protection reasoning attached to it. However, like everything, safety and security is the primary reason. Someone on my aircraft who is not authorised to be so is a security risk. I don't know whether they are a terrorist, a stow away or a lost passenger therefore they are a risk to myself, my fellow crew members and my passengers.
You will therefore find that if unauthorised passengers are discovered inflight, procedure will takeover because it is deemed a security risk.

c) It can be frustrating having to show boarding cards at the aircraft door aswell but just keep them to hand.
Boarding card for boarding?? Whatever next? They'll be asking for money in Tesco.
The truth is many airports don't have airbridge equipment and therefore it is very easy to attempt to board another aircraft.
Who are left to deal with this? Cabin crew and to a lesser extent, flight crew.

d)Going through the airport these days is sometimes a nightmare. If you don't like it though then the choice is simple, don't fly. The airport experience isn't as good as what it once was but we do have the terrorists to blame for that. Therefore you shouldn't be rude to cabin crew, nor is it acceptable to be so when they simply ask to see your boarding card for a "final cabin crew like to be sure check" and more importantly for the passenger, to make sure you are on the right flight. Why? Because the passenger seldom accepts blame for boarding the wrong flight.

e) Some cabin crew can be stand offish.........yes. Some passengers can be ************************************** yes. That is human nature as much as i hate it.

[christep]

The airport experience isn't as good as what it once was but we do have the terrorists to blame for that.Indeed we do, but it is a cop-out to blame it all on the terrorists when a fair proportion of the inconvenience is due to incompetent and irrational knee-jerk reactions by populist politicians (and some to the travelling public for putting up with the worst of the crap without simply saying "enough irrational theatre").

[Final 3 Greens]

Boarding card for boarding?? Whatever next? They'll be asking for money in Tesco.

What an idiotic comment.

The boarding pass is checked at the gate by most airlines in Europe.

Of course, British airlines are obliged to check these again on boarding the aircraft (to comply with regulations), whereas many others are not.

The regular aircraft losses around Europe show how foolish the other countries are in not enforcing this policy.

[SXB]

Two arguments here, one side says requesting boarding cards at the door is a security precaution and the other says it's revenue protection. The first thing to say is most european airlines don't check boarding cards at the door, (though Air France is the exception)

It's probably fair to say that the majority of people who commit crimes on aircraft are in possession of a valid boarding card. Furthermore, the crimes they carried out would have been committed regardless of whether they'd had their boarding card checked or not. Also, a passenger getting on the wrong flight is not really a security issue, as Mancry mentions it sets in motion a procedure, this procedure will cost the airline money because it's their fault it happened and they will have to pay to get the passenger to the correct location.

I couldn't care less if a FA wants to see my by boarding card at the door or not, if they ask me for the card I will show it to them along with the correct courtesy. But, to suggest this is a security issue is simply incorrect, it's revenue protection and nothing else.

[SXB]

The regular aircraft losses around Europe show how foolish the other countries are in not enforcing this policy.

Yes:) It also illustrates the layers of extra "stuff" involved in flying to or from any British airport. The boarding card thing is a non issue but there are many others which just add to the general unpleasantness of transiting a UK airport, especially LHR. Nowadays I never use BA because it involves transiting LHR and I hate that. I imagine there are a lot of people in Europe who are also boycotting LHR.

[nivsy]

There has been a lot of discussion in this thread and some how I still think it comes back to the airport experience which is generally poor and therefore easy to possibly upset or confuse staff as well as the passenger.

That said flew through Munich Terminal 2 yesterday - spaceous - lots of people actually working at the bag drop area - security passage painless friendly and quick (all security areas active) and free coffee around the departure dates. With many weary eyed passengers due to Octoberfest I must say everything was handled wonderfully and when it came to showing ID at the gate as well as earlier at baggage check in) it did not matter as no one was feeling harassed. LH did not check the boarding card on boarding.


Nivsy

[Skipness One Echo]

I think that the lack of honest reasons given for why we are forced to undergo the amount of checks is destabilising. If you give less than honest answers then don't expect your passengers to have the same amount of respect for airline staff as we once had. Personally the airport experience in the UK treats us as retarded morons to be herded, quite literally like sheep to part company with our cash to keep us calm until the plane eventually arrives. Putting staff in those silly bloody dayglo vests makes them look and behave like council jobsworths on a power trip.

When airlines provide service levels like that and you will get the passengers you deserve.

Onse on board, watching some of the larger cabin crew glare at the now seated potential terrorists as the pilot dives for the safety of the forward loo is comic. I have seen these guys flex as if they are in the SAS all to prevent someone trying to get into the flightdeck with a yoghurt sneaked through security.

It's a continual drip, drip, drip, of cultural change within the industry which now has an us and them attitude between them and passengers. Lest anyone ever use the term SLF I would sack every damn one of em. This is a service industry after all.

[Coquelet]

On Ryanair, each passenger must show his boarding pass at the door of the 737; in some airports, it would not be impossible for somebody to board the wrong coach to the aircraf or walk to the wrong aircraft: you show the boarding pass, it is acknowledged by the attendant, all is well; where is the problem, really ?

[Michael SWS]

I understand the need (or desire) to inspect boarding cards upon entering the aircraft, and have no problem whatsoever with showing mine when requested.

However, while I would emphasise that there is no excuse for rudeness, cabin crew should remember that by the time that we, the passengers, have reached the aircraft we have been herded like sheep, made to wait in countless, endless lines, patronised and - above all - have probably already shown that bit of cardboard to half a dozen other people on the long journey from departure drop-off to aircraft. Sometimes the insanity of it all just gets us down, and it is perhaps not surprising that our apparent lack of enthusiasm at being asked to show that same bit of paper yet again may be mistaken for grumpiness.

Airports are miserable places, and flying is a miserable experience. Sometimes we can't help but show our feelings, no matter how hard we try not to.

[denis555]

Is it true that up to the 1950's friends and relatives could board the plane to say their goodbyes before the attendants announced that all non-passengers would have to leave before takeoff?

What civilised times we used to live in... How the world has changed.

[GANNET FAN]

My wife and I walked into T5 at 05.45 and she scanned the departure board for the Nice flight. Oops, must be from T1, sorry. the excuse at that time in the morning that I wanted here to admire T5 didn't go down too well.

Given this scenario, its probably just as CC inspect my pass on boarding, chances are that somehow I might be on the wrong flight.

This age thing aint good!!

[Final 3 Greens]

I imagine there are a lot of people in Europe who are also boycotting LHR.

Must be a lot.

There are at least two of us on this forum :}

With so many viable alternative options these days, who would willingly transit a third class airport, where one gets the impression they think they are doing you a favour by letting you through?

[AMEandPPL]

Is it true that up to the 1950's friends and relatives could board the plane to say their goodbyes before the attendants announced that all non-passengers would have to leave before takeoff ?

Yes, that's true - I can remember my first flights on things like Viscounts and Vanguards - propellors up at the front !

More seriously though, the same lack of security checks still applies TODAY - in 2008 - to train (or underground) travel. Anyone at all can get on a high speed Intercity train about to leave Euston. The ticket checks come once under way, possibly at 100mph.

And the hundreds of bags and cases on board Richard Branson's shining Pendolino are NEVER CHECKED AT ALL . . . . . . . . . . .

[OFSO]

We were sitting on the FR 737-800 parked at Girona and due to leave for Rome, some two years ago, when - after a head count - one of their charming cabin staff said "ladies and gentlemen, if there are any passengers who wish to fly to Paris, would they please disembark and get on the aircraft next to us, as THIS one is going to Rome..."

To applause (from the Catalans) and a brief chorus of "Why were they born so beautiful" (from the British - all right, from me), two red-faced passengers struggled down the aisle & steps and got onto the flight next door.

And I've done it myself, bording with no questions asked an AF flight from Charles de Gaulle to Dusseldorf, aircraft parked on the left, when I wanted to go to Frankfurt a.M., aircraft parked on the right. Only by chatting to the chap in the next seat did I find out. Caused no end of confusion when I got off, having to retrieve my boarding card from the AF stew who hadn't bothered to read it properly.

So not a bad idea, checking boarding cards on board, when they are actually looked at.

RaF

[6chimes]

As one of the Mods has commented, it is very odd how much of a reaction this thread has caused.

As crew my humble question to you passengers is this;

For various reasons and many have been mentioned here, it is entirely possible for someone to board the wrong a/c. It doesn't happen that often but it certainly does happen. The door of the a/c is the last point at which the error will have no impact on delaying the flight.

If we do let someone aboard who should not be there then a whole raft of procedures are brought into play to re secure the aircraft. Which can quite easily take 30 minutes from beginning to end.

So, what do you want guys, you can keep that boarding card out for 2 minutes longer and give it to us for the briefest of moments or incur missing slots, late arrivals, diaries turned upside down, business lost etc?

Security is the only reason that my airline checks those boarding cards although we can then identify our business/first class pax a little sooner and therefore start the service that they have paid considerably more for, earlier.

I do wonder if those of you who are really negative toward the crew on this thread are the same pax that blame us when it is foggy! We can't win sometimes and we know it.

Here is a headline for you: "Million to one chance error leads to airliner down and hundreds dead"

Ridiculous? Now the procedure is here it has to stay just in case that one needle in the haystack slips through and takes one of us away from our kids forever.

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[MrSoft]

Interesting thread! Two sides to every story. First, if you can't even be bothered to be civil to CC when entering the plane, then congratulations - you're officially a miserable git and I hope you enjoy negotiating your miserable way through the world.

Other side - I am never grumpy at the door, but I confess I am sometimes grumpy on the airbridge when the queue seems to be completely stuck solid. The first aim of boarding is surely to be as swift as possible. A lengthy greeting or interaction between the CC and SLF is not in anyone's interest. In the Middle East I have actually been walked to my seat (in Y) by a cabin attendant and lovely though it was it would surely impact on overall speed of access for the others.

up to the 1950's friends and relatives could board the plane to say their goodbyes

Charming, but an absolutely appalling idea if you think about it.

[larssnowpharter]

For various reasons and many have been mentioned here, it is entirely possible for someone to board the wrong a/c. It doesn't happen that often but it certainly does happen

Happened to me once. Calgary had just opened the new terminal in mid 70s. I was on one of the first flights out to Washington. Mid 70s.

Somehow, in the confusion hat made T5 and Malpensa look well organised, about 6 pax managed to get onto the wrong aircraft. Not til headcount was it discovered.

Other details lost in mists of time.

[Glamgirl]

I'm rather horrified that people on here thinks that us cc checking boarding cards at the door has no impact on the safety of a flight. Imagine this: some "unstable" person books in for a flight with checked in luggage and blatantly walks onto another aircraft. There's explosives (or even something as small as a box of "Lucky Luke" matches in this person's luggage. The "unstable" one travels to ABC safely, but the luggage travels half-way to DEF before bringing the aircraft down. Therefore, it's a security risk.

If all cc could explain to pax when they ask, that "I'm just checking your flight number and date", pax would understand much better. On a short haul aircraft (single aisle), there is no necessety of telling people where they're sitting (unless they ask).

I try to do the boarding card scenario as good humoured as possible, by sometimes saying that we don't want any uninvited guests on board, or just checking they're goiog to the right place. All with a smile of course. It helps the pax understand and then accept why we do it. Trust me, we don't do it because we desperately want to, it's what we have to do.

Hope this clarifies some issues.

Gg

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm rather horrified that people on here thinks that us cc checking boarding cards at the door has no impact on the safety of a flight.

Glamgirl

The trouble is that some of us make the majority of our flights on airlines who do not check the boarding passes.

So are you telling me that I am taking a higher risk by flying with the likes of Lufthansa, SN Brussels, Swiss etc? And if so is it an unacceptable risk?

Please provide references to support your answers.

And therein lies the problem, different standards and different perceptions.

Having said that, I don't have a problem produing a boarding pass on UK airlines or Air France, its just a discordant feeling.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Why should cc have a obligation to explain anything to pax?
If you board my bus, I want to know....
1.That you belong on it.
2. That you have a clue where your seat is.
3. That you get to it ASAP so that I make my slot.
I am the Captain...
I ask the cabin crew to undertake these things for your safety and convenience.
BC and FC pax should lead by example. They are not meant to be the mangiling herd.
Any acts of grumpy by pax at entry port is nothing more that bullying.
Exterminate bullys........No problems with that I guess?

[Final 3 Greens]

I ask the cabin crew to undertake these things for your safety and convenience.

But capts don't ask crew on most European airlines to check boarding passes, do they?

And the ones who do are doing what they are told to do by their employers.

Anyway, nice trolling try, but I'm not biting further.

[6chimes]

[QUOTE]And therein lies the problem, different standards and different perceptions.

Having said that, I don't have a problem produing a boarding pass on UK airlines or Air France, its just a discordant feeling./QUOTE]

Different countries have different security risks and therefore will have different procedures in place to deal with it. Take for example VISA's; one country wants you to have one another might not, some countries want you to have a visa if you are from a certain country yet you will not need one if you are a citizen of somewhere else. Everyone just seems to put up with that!

It is not my employer that demands that I ask politely to see your boarding card it is a directive from the DfT and their security groups.

I take your point that the inconsistency is infuriating, some airports in the UK want your belt off, some don't, some want your shoes off, some don't etc. etc. etc.

Don't shoot the messenger as I'm only doing my job.

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[Skipness One Echo]

Good point Glagirl, shame the girl at the other end of the bridge can't be trusted to read a small piece of card. Would you like a straw to clutch at? For God's sake you're checking the same thing at BOTH ENDS of the same airbridge. Clearly all those airlines that allow this highly dangerous loophole to remain open must be grounded. Summon the authorities so they may be warned!

Some people can't see the wood for the trees. Frequent fliers see the disparity between airlines more than the staff that are the "experts" it seems. You check boarding cards because you are told to, fair enough. The fact that not everyone does is a clue that it might *NOT* be as essential as you are told. I hope you don't believe everything your employer tells you. Perhaps "your terms and conditions are safe".......

[el #]

From the above collection of condescending banalities:

he or she is constantly thinking about 9/11

Should see a therapist then.

[6chimes]

I'm sure that you a thoroughly decent person and hold a job where you also have responsibility to someone or some board members. You will have probably had to make decisions that are in the interest of the business which may have been mis-understood or not seen within the overall structure of the business. So maybe you could consider the post that you have criticised and think again.

If you have never been in the position I have stated then you have absolutely no business commenting.

I have never been so offended by a post on pprune.

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[christep]

I'm rather horrified that people on here thinks that us cc checking boarding cards at the door has no impact on the safety of a flight. Imagine this: some "unstable" person books in for a flight with checked in luggage and blatantly walks onto another aircraft. There's explosives (or even something as small as a box of "Lucky Luke" matches in this person's luggage. The "unstable" one travels to ABC safely, but the luggage travels half-way to DEF before bringing the aircraft down. Therefore, it's a security risk.Eh? If the passenger wanted to do as you suggest then surely the simple answer is not to board any aircraft at all? The security check that stops what you fear (unaccompanied luggage being dangerous) is the check on the aircraft that the luggage is on that so are all the attendant passengers.

But in any case, you seem not to have noticed that the current breed of terrorist has no problems dying for their beliefs so the issue of people flying separately from their luggage is more or less irrelevant these days.

[Final 3 Greens]

6

I wouldn't wish to get into an argument with you, as I respect your approach and time and time again you take a reasonable view on these boards :D

Having said that, my point is about the ridiculous inconsistency, not the act of showing a boarding pass at the door - it really doesn't worry me and only takes a few seconds.

But if different countries have different security needs, how come the airlines operate in and out of the same airports with different standards? Should n't they standardise by airport by country?

To use your example of visas, wouldn't it be ridiculous if people flying on BA to a certain needed a visa, but people on Lufthansa didn't?

That's exactly the type of inconsistency people like me, who fly every week, experience regularly.

I certainly don't blame the crew, as I am well aware that the DfT set rules which their employers must comply with, but I do notice the differential standards and wonder what it is all about.... and like another poster said on another post recently, I actively avoid corresponding through UK airports because of the extra hassle, wchih does not make me feel one little bit safer.

[Final 3 Greens]

Summa101

Anyone who writes such a rant is truly in the wrong job and needs counselling into a more suitable position.

Assuming the rant is serious, there is a lot of repressed anger in there and that is neither healthy for the person nor those that person comes into contact with.

Ever heard of the term "going postal?"

[6chimes]

I take your point, the inconsistencies are baffling. Like you I fly all the time mainly as crew although I do pax a fair bit too.

Most of the problems arise when poorly trained/paid staff are told to implement rules that are there for security. If you are in civviies and ask why a particular rule/process is in place you will be seen as a threat and quite possibly given a curt answer. I have seen that on a number of occasions and I have also seen many nice and informative security employees.

As you will already know UK airports are profit focussed and hence run on the bare minimum staffing levels, in airports that are quite often over crowded and in need of rebuilding.

I would imagine that most of you on the thread here are regular business pax so I would guess that you are flying a lot of shorthaul and at the peak times. So you will be passing through the airports when they are operating to full capacity. My sympathies to you all!!! :{

Like I said before, don't shoot the messenger I'm only doing my job.

As for the inconsistencies, 'tis life and there are plenty of jobs worths in the UK ready to pounce and assert a little authority. It makes 'em feel good about themselves.:ok: Humour them :eek:

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[Right Way Up]

But in any case, you seem not to have noticed that the current breed of terrorist has no problems dying for their beliefs so the issue of people flying separately from their luggage is more or less irrelevant these days.

And that is the rub, what the "current breed" of terrorists do is irrelevant, pre Sept 11 nobody had flown an airliner into a building. Terrorists are constantly looking for weak points in the system. It is important we do not give them opportunites by relaxing in key areas. As Captain it is my responsibility that everyone who boards the aircraft is supposed to be on it. That includes every groundstaff members' id being checked. I can only delegate that role to my crew, and in any case would prefer there to be more than one line of defence.

I would suggest that anyone who really gets bothered about showing their boarding pass on the aircraft maybe needs to relax a little.

[Final 3 Greens]

I would suggest that anyone who really gets bothered about showing their boarding pass on the aircraft maybe needs to relax a little.

Given that most of the airlines of Europe don't feel the need to check at the aircraft door, I would suggest that you need to relax a little.

[Right Way Up]

F 3 G,
Quite chilled thanks. I will do my job as I am required to as a UK commander, what other countries' airlines do is quite irrelevant.

[6chimes]

It would be interesting to hear from some european crew on this. They must have the odd occasion where someone does board the wrong a/c, if not then it is the UK that should be looking at why europe has a zero incidence rate.

If they do have the odd occasion it would be interesting to know what they do about it and how long it takes.

I would be horrified if the pax was just allowed to disembark and the flight were to carry on as normal, so the flight must incur a delay of some sort. Which justifies our system that prevents any delay no matter how short. We all know what folk think of a delay that could have been avoided.

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[Final 3 Greens]

Quite chilled thanks. I will do my job as I am required to as a UK commander, what other countries' airlines do is quite irrelevant.

Then perhaps you should qualify your comments "in the UK."

Another little Englander, I see.

[Right Way Up]

Another little Englander, I see. :D

You're actually quite funny in a strange sort of way. ;)

[Right Way Up]

....or is that strange in a funny sort of way? (This damn little english language always gets the better of me) ;)

[el #]

6,

wrt the CC rant above, others have expressed my same opinion and I have no apology to make. I'm serious in saying that if a CC goes to report to work everyday thinking about 9/11, something is not right with his/her psyche.

Be reassured that I have the maximum respect toward CC's role and responsibilities, no matter if someone else life depends on me or not.

The issue is another, seems like that every time there is a pax having a different opinion on things, or merely a report of inconsistency like in this case, the anwer from people "in the business" come invariably as absolute and infallible, like:

- Due to security regulations (often adding, that don't come from us)
- We do like that and if others don't, we don't even want to know, beside others are wrong by definition.
- It's "my" airplane.
- You don't know anything as it's not your profession.

In short, I see "you guys" to be very good at dodging and rebutting any critique or objection, always reusing the same arguments and not actually listening to what others says. Kind of the canned answer that one receive from CS departments. This can be a little appalling in forums where you expect the next person to be at least normally intelligent and able to dialogue.

[Right Way Up]

el#,
I do not believe anyone goes to work thinking of 9/11. However every company is given advice by security experts on how to deal with risk. From that their ops manual dictates how we tackle the issue. I personally wish for the good old days where flying was a more personal pastime & included inviting pax to the flight deck (even for the landing).

The problem in this case seems to be a general one of lack of respect, in a minority on both sides. I have heard rudeness from both pax & crew. It is not required or reasonable. In either case I will speak to the offender.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Hell! This goes on! Just think of ticket girl at entry port as ticket collector in train.
Now just you imagine the fuss and problemos if Lufthansa wanted your seat number tattoes on the wrist.
And if you do not sometime think of 9/11 then the guys on United 93 should come and spuken you up quite considerably!

[boardingpass]

I've flown on many many many airlines and I've always had my boarding card checked at the door. (I've never flown Lufthansa - perhaps any crew can provide more detail about what happens here). I think it's also a nice opportunity to say hello to the crew operating on the flight. As European airlines are migrating to a standard EU-OPS set of regulations, you may begin to find more consistencies over the next few years.

[el #]

Wait, it's getting even better now!

We kind all agreed that NOT ALL airlines require a the pass to be shown, and "boardingpass" (no nick would be more appropriate) tells us that good manners suggest to show it even when not required, perhaps in anticipation of EU-OPS!

:ugh:

[MrSoft]

Just took 4 sectors on LH last week.

Why oh why are Lufthansa CC so grumpy when I try to show them my boarding pass?

Surely a little common decency is not too much to ask in this day and age.

[boardingpass]

El, I'm not sure what post you're reading... I'm not saying you should show it if not required... however, if you do need to show it, why not take the opportunity to say hello to the crew? I don't think the crew will care one way or the other, but a little bit of interaction can be nice when air-travel these days is rather faceless.

[6chimes]

I think you are missing something.

This a pilots site debating issues that are related to their industry. Then there are the other people that work in aviation who come here to share common views and discuss their industry. And then there are the passengers and aviation enthusiasts that are welcome to vent their spleens as well.

The cc rant that you and so many others have picked holes in just sums up the inside view of what we seem to do every day. We have to apologise for just about everything that happens to you when we didn't have anything to do with it. Yes it is our job and we do it because it is our job and we understand that we are the face of the airline and anything that happens to you whilst you are with us. We honestly don't mind that.

Is 9/11 on our minds every day we go to work? Of course not. What is on our minds though, is how easily it would be to let our guard down. We know that we sometimes come across as being party poopers when we ask you to comply with some every day rules that seem to have no sense to you. We do however realise that we are the last line of defence if something does happen in that metal tube zipping along at 500 mph some 6/7 miles up. Terrorism or just general disruption it aint the place for it.

I am sure that if I was to enter your world I would come across some policies and procedures that I would have no idea why they were there, it would seem that they were just a hinderence. And I am quite sure that you would tell me that there was a damn good reason for them. When its my bank telling me I can't get a loan when I can clearly pay for it then thats something to moan about.

6

[el #]

All I wanted was to see some intelligent discussion about not everyone doing things the same way everywhere, I'd liked having CC seeing things from a PAX perspective once and viceversa, but I ended up being lectured trice.

I rest my case, most CCs and FDs that probably are the absolute best in their profession, when it come to a normal discussion, seems to be able to stick to worn and generic arguments only.

6chimes, it's certainly commendable that you have such a commitment in being the "last line of defense" in this "war on terror".

But, if ever (heaven forbids) you are held at knifepoint by some terrorist, you will then find who the last line of defense really is. To be overly clear: many angry passengers.

You aren't the only ones to have learned the lesson, but most of the time behave and talk like it was so.

[6chimes]

I understand when you and many like you ask for the same rules and the same procedures across the board. For you guys that travel all over the place and all the time it must be a nightmare knowing what to expect and where. Gonna be honest with you though, thats part of the problem. This Global village is not quite as global as the airline adverts imply.

Do bare this in mind though; this is a very public forum so to explain or help could possibly compromise our security.

I won't lecture you at all, you could be the principal at harvard for all I know. Ask and I will answer the best I can.

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[Di_Vosh]

It would be interesting to hear from some european crew on this.

Can't say for them, but in Oz the Qantas group (QF, QL, and Jetstar) ask to see boarding passes at the aircraft door. Not sure about VB and Rex, as I've not paxed on either for years.

But if this thread was in D&G, it would have lasted about 5 posts, because over here no-one (pax or crew) really cares if we're asked to see our boarding pass another time.

We care about more important things...

Like Footy :ok: (Aussie rules and rugby, not that round ball rubbish)

and Beer :} (Ice-cold, thanks, and NOT Fosters)

and White-pointers on the beach, etc.


DIVOSH!

[el #]

6chimes, we may have different views, I always appreciate a courteous talk in person or online, but that is becoming too rare I'm afraid.

I never ask about strange or sensitive matters simply because Google is inquiring minds best friend.

Wish all "you guys" easy flights and lot of quality time.
And to myself, to always have a smile and a job.

[6chimes]

We care about more important things...

Like Footy (Aussie rules and rugby, not that round ball rubbish)

and Beer (Ice-cold, thanks, and NOT Fosters)

and White-pointers on the beach, etc.

mmmm..............
Like footy: Cos only you play it, cos you get it right sometimes, cos you never get it right.

Beer: Cos ice cold covers s:mad:te brew, Only gypsies drink fosters.

White pointers: That'll be the English girls whipping off their tops then ?

6

[6chimes]

here here.

Its a shame that you felt so victimised. I can assure you that not one person I know and respect would ever put you down or belittle any passenger that asked a question politely. That is not to say I don't know crew who would!

6

[boardingpass]

Maybe that's why aussies are said to be laid-back lovely blokes and sheilas, whilst brits are said to be, let's face it, winging, whining Poms!

[6chimes]

Actually mate, my top ten worst reactions to being asked to show their boarding card are yanks.

Been told to f:mad: off several times by our friends from across the pond.

Most of the time the 'whinging poms' only moan cos they have put their pass away and are carrying briefcases, laptops and a suit holder so they have their hands full and it is a nuisance.

And if the crew keep them standing at the door causing a blockage they find it embarrassing. It is usually a lot simpler and easier to ask them to step into a galley or free space to find the thing in peace.

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[Load Toad]

Just for info the reason I'm sometimes grumpy when I get on a 'plane is that I've had a crap journey to the airport, I've been shagged about at check in, forced to invert my intestines through security and then sat for an hour bored in a dull airport where even a simple drink costs a bleedin' fortune. Then there is a crush of gits trying to board the 'plane all at the same time. I get on knowing I've got several hours of sod all leg room and my fellow passengers will be using handphones, playing their hand held games without headphones & elbowing into my personal spaceand I'll struggle to get enough drinks to numb the pain. And that's before take off.

[MancRy]

Simple solution. If you cannot deal with that (as bad as it maybe) and not have the common courtesy to be polite, then don't fly.

The airport journey is worse than it once was but it's not all that bad either.

[Curious Pax]

Most of the time the 'whinging poms' only moan cos they have put their pass away and are carrying briefcases, laptops and a suit holder so they have their hands full and it is a nuisance.



Finally someone's twigged the nub of the problem! Perhaps the grumpiness would go away if those airlines requiring the BP to be shown on the aircraft put it into the boarding announcement at the gate? "After presenting your boarding pass to the gate agent please keep it handy so that it can be checked as you enter the aircraft - we don't want to take anyone somewhere they hadn't planned on going today".

It wouldn't stop the professionally grumpy, but would probably keep those juggling bags, kids, laptops etc happy as they would know to keep it available.

[MidmarMile]

Whew!!! Finally got to the end of the thread.

Here we go round and round in circles.

Conclusion (as SLF): have BP ready to show, if it is not required no harm done. If CC not friendly try another carrier.

Conclusion (as CC): Smile and ask politely for BP. If response is positive & courteous keep it in the memory bank. If response is negative or grumpy then make a withdrawel from the memory bank.

My theory is that showing your boarding pass has nothing to do with security or protecting revenue, but more to do with.....

Mr Plod: "Evening Sir. How are we this evening? Had anything to drink this evening?"

Yes! The only reason for the CC to interact with the SLF when they get on the plane is to establish if anyone is "under the weather". As they say in the classics: Forewarned is forearmed.

[PaperTiger]

We don’t just make stuff up.Actually, yes you do. Often

[PaperTiger]

Imagine this: some "unstable" person books in for a flight with checked in luggage and blatantly walks onto another aircraft. There's explosives (or even something as small as a box of "Lucky Luke" matches in this person's luggage. The "unstable" one travels to ABC safely, but the luggage travels half-way to DEF before bringing the aircraft down. Therefore, it's a security risk.It is if two crews make a pig's ear of their headcounts. You DO do headcounts, yes ?

[6chimes]

No we don't. As strange as it may seem it is deemed that the electronic system used at the gate in the UK is adequate. The final check by us at the door is the safety net, so head counts no longer needed. They were found to make a/c miss slots etc. (LHR where its busy). It is actually very easy to muck up head counts. Babies under mums jumpers (yep I've had it), on twin aisled a/c the seat rows are not always even and are often staggered, so its damn easy to mess that one up. Downroute we do the headcount if we can't be sure of the system used for boarding.

So its us that door as safety net for the system that is supposed to be good enough at the gate.

Mid mar mile, it is for security nothing else. and if you are that inebriated that we can tell as soon as look at you then you are a security risk.

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[grumpysnail]

This thread must be a contender for "longest thread about not much at all" award :rolleyes:

Keep your passport and boarding pass handy until you're in your seat, smile and present it when asked and try to relax. Worrying about how many times you're asked to present your bona-fides is just going to make your life shorter.

I smile and say "Hello" and present my boarding pass when I get on a plane. Reactions vary from a grunt and point toward the rear of the plane through to "Welcome back, Mr Grumpysnail."

Air travel sucks. Rolling your eyes and grumping at people isn't going to make it better and may well make your trip worse.

[Final 3 Greens]

No we don't.

Interesting.

That strikes me as a security risk.

Most of the airlines I fly with do a headcount.

That piece of information has made me more reluctant to fly with UK carriers.

All it takes is for someone to produce a photoshop boarding pass for the "wrong" flight and the door entry check fails dead. I think the security argument just imploded.

Unbelievable.

[6chimes]

If someone did 'create' their own BC they would have to know which seats were free. Which they couldn't do with any degree of certainty.

The system at the gate has its own way of monitoring heads.

No it is not 100% fool proof. Near impossible to exploit though.

The headcount never picked up folk on the wrong a/c that was picked up earlier with double booked seats when 2 people tried to sit in the same seat. The headcount only ever made sure that no one was left behind. The system now covers that.

6

[Di_Vosh]

White pointers: That'll be the English girls whipping off their tops then ?


Well done :ok: :ok:

Cheers all,

DIVOSH!

[Skipness One Echo]

6 chimes, that only works if you pre-assign seats. Think it through love.....

[L337]

Most of the airlines I fly with do a headcount.

That piece of information has made me more reluctant to fly with UK carriers.


Talking here as a BA 744 driver:

In the olden days of the Classic 747, and the days of headcounts, you could be there a week trying to get the count correct. Each time it was done you would get a different result. 500 passengers and it would be, 499, 503, 498, 512, 489, 499, 500.. yay we can go. Hopeless.

Now the BP has an electronic tag that is read by the machine at the door. That is how the heads are counted in this day and age. So when we are "one down" we know exactly who it is, we know exactly (ish) where on the aircraft his bag is, and we can get that bag off quickly, and get on our way.

[marcopolosnap]

Two points:

Why cannot PAX be told at each step along the line, starting with check-in, that "This is your boarding pass. You'll be required to present it as you board the aircraft." There will always be some who won't have it at the ready, but at least the repetition may get through to the majority, especially the non-frequents.

Point two: Concerning aircraft security, I'm surprised that I've never heard from crew who have been on either hijacked aircraft or on aircraft that had a serious threat (such as Richard Reid). I believe - VERY strongly - that if we could ask any of the PAX or crew on any of the 11 September flights, or anyone in the WTC who happened to be looking out the window having their morning coffee and saw AA 11 coming straight at them, about their views on security, they would very likely support strip- and cavity searches for anyone getting within 100 meters of any airplane.

[Skipness One Echo]

Or how about having a half decent security search in the firstplace. US domestic security pre 9-11 was a joke, a national disgrace.They might say it was recklessly lax to allow box cutters with a bloody sharp blade on an aeroplane.

Now of course it's gone too far the other way as the TSA over reacts on a daily basis.

If you read the thread, people don't see it as a genuine security check any more than confiscating miniscule screwdrivers and 150ml Lynx deoderant. If you're really so hyper worried, ban the duty free bottles you sell becasue so help me God that would do way more damage. I *bet* that you won't be doing that anytime soon We ask for intelligence and consistency and instead we get "body cavity searches". Right.......

[MidmarMile]

6c, time for me to make a withdrawel from the memory bank. I was merely trying to show how the thread has spiralled inwards on itself!!!

Now accuracy of headcounts (L337) brings up another memory. I was flying on an internal flight within South Africa with a departure time of 7am (PEAK!). I observed the CC starting the headcount at the back of the plane, moving forwards. After about 12 rows they seemed to loose count and came back to the back and restarted. There were 3 restarts before the count was successfully completed. During the flight I took a quick walk to row 1 and back, there were only 3 empty seats on the whole flight!!! If the plane is more than half full don't waste time counting heads!

[L337]

One trouble is, very often, every aeroplane in the fleet has a different configuration. On the 744 we have big and little club configurations. Then some seats are u/s and blocked out etc etc. On a 737 or A320 it is a much easier task. On a big aircraft it is a fraught with errors.

Sometimes 2 people are in one seat... Mother and baby. People move whilst the count is taking place, despite being asked not to.

To try and make sense of the current security regulations in aviation is going to drive you mad. It is mostly designed to keep the Daily Mail editor happy as far as I can see. We, as in we the crew, pilots and Cabin crew, have to endure airport security multiple times a day. It is as bad for us as it is bad for you.

I deliberately bid to avoid the USA because of it.

[boardingpass]

In my airline, 9 out of 10 pax have their boarding passes ready to show when boarding. The ones that have popped it away usually don't take too long to find it. The thing that annoys me is when they say, oh my wife's got it and points over their shoulder. But the wife is at least 10 people back. This seems to happen to me about 3 out of 100 (or about 5 per plane!) I'm not married myself, but why is there this dire need to separate yourself from your missus (and not take your b/c with you?)

[grumpysnail]

I'm not married myself, but why is there this dire need to separate yourself from your missus

If you were married, you would know.;)

[Final 3 Greens]

To try and make sense of the current security regulations in aviation is going to drive you mad. It is mostly designed to keep the Daily Mail editor happy as far as I can see. We, as in we the crew, pilots and Cabin crew, have to endure airport security multiple times a day. It is as bad for us as it is bad for you.

Agree :ok:

[PaperTiger]

Now the BP has an electronic tag that is read by the machine at the door. That is how the heads are counted in this day and age. So when we are "one down" we know exactly who it is, we know exactly (ish) where on the aircraft his bag is, and we can get that bag off quickly, and get on our way.Right. So the 'security' aspect of checking the BP again at L1 is to identify those passengers who have materialised or dematerialised in the jetway ?

[L337]

Right. So the 'security' aspect of checking the BP again at L1 is to identify those passengers who have materialised or dematerialised in the jetway ?

Hey, don't expect me to defend the security procedures in place. We do what the DFT ask of us. Allot of it is barking at best. I suspect that all that is achieved at the door to the aircraft is to allow the cabin crew to direct you to your correct seat, and correct cabin.

Just on my most recent flight a passenger sat in First class, with a coach ticket, and refused to move. Full stop refused. Only with the threat of the Police did he go to his correct seat.

[6chimes]

We do pre assign seats love .................:E

Although just in case you misunderstood, I did not mean that it was a UK wide rule, it varies from airline to airline.

6

[strake]

Well, this is a serious problem and one that requires considerable thought.

However, here is my cunning proposal to solve the issue...free...no charge..gratis.

When approaching immigration, there's a sign that says "Please have your passport and boarding card ready for inspection".
When approaching the gate, there's an announcement saying "please have your passport and boarding card ready for inspection.......".

(Now, I come to my earth shattering suggestion.....)

When that announcement is made why not add"......and keep your boarding card ready for further inspection at the aircraft door for security"..?
Even more cunning, the agent could say " Thank you Mr Strake, have a nice flight and..ooh, please keep hold of your boarding card because they'll need to see it at the aircraft door"

See, brilliant!

The foreigners won't file the card with their passports, the bolshies will have no reason to be..well bolshie. The rest of us can smile, be happy, strum our guitars, hand out peace flowers or generally do what ever we do to try and forget the absolute, total bulls**it ,c**p, pigstink bo****cks beyond belief, that is the commercial flying experience of 2008.

[Der absolute Hammer]

A boarding pass is a pass you show when boarding something. (Dictionary)
You board an aircraft when you step on board. (Homer Simpson, sorry)
So you should show your boarding pass when you do that and step on board an aircraft ? (Elementary Watson)
So you should not show your boarding pass before you step on board because the boarding pass should only be shown when stepping on board. (as above, logical deducytion)
So should the thread not read...
Grumpy anywhere other than aircraft when asked for boarding pass?
Do not the Grumpies get grumpy at the wrong grumpy point and not at all the right grumpy points?
Does that make the sense of the thing.

[el #]

D.A.H.

I'll write it again here just to have it on every page of this admittedly very boring thread:


Not all airlines check passes at the airplane door.
These that do, do not make written or verbal recommendation to keep pass in hand.
Consequently, it's normal that some PAX can have put away the pass after the check at gate.

[Tyrekicker2]

There are still some airports in the world where route from the boarding gate to aircraft is not secure - therefore some carriers have a standard operating procedure to ensure the person entering the aircraft is entitled to do so. Of course this may seem frivolous when you are checked at both ends of a jetway that has no other access.
In the not too recent past I was travelling in transit through an international airport. I was one of the last passengers to board. The ground staff at the entrance to the jetway advised me to turn right and go down the stairs to apron level. At the bottom of the stairs there was no-one to direct me. I knew I was travelling on a 737 - so I walked over to the first one. Kinshasa? I asked the crewmember at 1L - 'no sir' was the reply. I found the correct aircraft at the third attempt. Luckily I have worked in and around airports for 35 years so I was very aware of the hazards of the ramp.
As long as this kind of situation happens at airports (where even the boundary fence is not secure :ugh:) there will be a need for the check at the aircraft door. The fact that some carriers do not do it - I would like to see their risk assessments.

[Final 3 Greens]

There are still some airports in the world where route from the boarding gate to aircraft is not secure

Would you include any UK airport in this category?

[Der absolute Hammer]

To answer this question is a security breach!
(Yes, Final 3 Greens.I know sure you are not of evil intent.)

[alcockell]

Seeing that I haven't flown for decades, is there anything purchasable that would make the whole carryng of boarding cards and other ID docs easier - especally when juggling stuff?

I know with rail tickets, they're credit-card format - so they slip into wallets... is there some wallet affair that can clip to a belt.. or can be hung round a neck? Should I have all 3 elements to hand... passport, boarding card, ticket... how does the raw beginner manage?

[PAXboy]

PaperTigerRight. So the 'security' aspect of checking the BP again at L1 is to identify those passengers who have materialised or dematerialised in the jetway ?As you probably know, Jetways often have external access at the a/c end. There is a side door that goes to external steps and so to the apron enabling staff to move quickly from supervising the loading to speaking to a/c crew. Many perimeter fences are not secure (in many countries) so you must check the BP.

However many announcements (written and spoken) there will always be a small percentage of folks who do not have the BP ready. On a recent trip, a family in front of me going through security ... standing in line, I could easily see 'mum' collect the children's passports for safe keeping. Once through into the duty free, 'dad' asked 'mum' for the passports for safe keeping and then panicked that one of them was missing. I had seen that one of the children had retained theirs but it took the family nearly a minute to work out whose was missing and where it was. So, not having the BP to hand is a trivial exercise.

[Der absolute Hammer]

PAXboy
So you let poor family suffer for one minute when you knew the passport was with the child? That was hard of you. They must have make you grumpy beforehand with behaviour?

[Boss Raptor]

As has been noted by numerous people ahead/above...

No one in my entire 25 years of this industry and as a pax has ever told me once past the final gate inspection that I have to be prepared to show my boarding pass and why (of course yes I know why...)

Let's face it flying (airports) is a god awful experience these days...wait in line for this...inspect that...I travel 4-5 times a month and believe me I have learned to live with it but even I grate my teeth sometimes at the rudeness and ignorance that I can (sometimes) be shown by someone at security etc. etc.

As well as that every airport seems slightly different and I like to think I am used to the system...last week at a European airport (albeit Eastern) I had to show my passport and ticket twice just to get to check in and then passport and boarding pass a further three times to three seperate people within the space of 4 metres just to pass security into the departure lounge...now even I didnt foresee that and once inside it was a breeze :)

I try to smile and stay calm but believe me it's as difficult for the pax as it is the staff...and the pax is less experienced and sometimes less emotionally able to handle the stress...de-stress that system and I am sure you'll see a few more smiles back at the jetway ;)

PS. In Joburg I was a given a further plastic security tag by a security bloke at top of jetway (after airline gate check at boarding) which u then gave to yet another clown standing in front of the door...approx 7 metres down the jetway with no means of access...work that one out and then ask why I almost called the guy at the bottom a w!nk!r :ok:

[christep]

PaperTigerAs you probably know, Jetways often have external access at the a/c end. There is a side door that goes to external steps and so to the apron enabling staff to move quickly from supervising the loading to speaking to a/c crew. Many perimeter fences are not secure (in many countries) so you must check the BP.Please spend a few seconds thinking about this.

If I want to jump over the fence, run across the apron and up the steps to the aircraft door, all I have to do to get past this so-called security check is to have a boarding pass that appears to be valid for this flight.

That would take me about 5 minutes to produce using Photoshop.

Checking at the door of the plane that I have a piece of paper which appears to be a boarding pass for that flight (without checking it against the manifest) has absolutely no security benefit at all. It does nothing to stop the scenario you envisage (which, I grant you, is probably one of the easiest ways for someone to get explosives or other forbidden items on a plane at ports where this route is possible). The only way to address such a risk is to do a headcount, and even that is easily bypassed if you have an insecure jetway/apron by someone who is "clean" leaving by the same route as the person with the explosives (and a matching boarding pass) enters.

Please engage your brain before making such ridiculous claims.

[Dropline]

christep
How would you know what type of boarding pass to create and what flight number/destination/seat number to put on your photoshop creation?
As well as checking boarding cards at the door, we also count the number of passengers on board. Any extra/unauthorised passenger would soon be identified and removed. And don't you think someone would spot you running across the apron and up the aircraft steps?
Please engage your own brain....

I know the constant checks throughout the airport are a pain, but boarding passes are checked by different people for different reasons, and they are only doing their jobs.

As a handling agent we have to make sure that only passengers with a valid ticket and passport/visa for a flight are allowed to check in, and we have to double check the identity of that person prior to boarding them. This is partly to ensure that in the event of an accident we have an ACCURATE record of exactly who is on board the aircraft.

[christep]

You aren't reading what I write carefully. The headcount has a purpose - that I don't dispute, although in the case of an insecure apron/jetway it is bypassed fairly trivially.

And as to what boarding card to create you obviously aren't following the scenario we are discussing of a terrorist wishing to get on board a specific flight with nefarious intent.

The question at issue here is what purpose the check at the aircraft door that someone has in their hand a piece of paper which looks like a boarding pass for that flight serves.

And the answer is clearly none at all (as pretty much all countries in the world except the UK recognise, and hence they don''t have such checks).

Moreover, the question of having an accurate record of who is on board an aircraft in the event of an accident is not a security issue either. Again I accept that it is an important thing to have, but that isn't the point at issue here.

Security of flights is very simple:

1. Screen all people who will board a flight to ensure that neither they nor their luggage have anything which could be used to harm the flight.

2. Screen all the cargo on the flight similarly.

3. Secure the cockpits so that no-one can take over the flight.

4. Ensure that no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight.

And that's all.

So long as we have have procedures which achieve these four then I would be quite happy to sit next to Osama Bin Laden himself on a plane. The identity of the people on the plane is of no importance whatsoever given those four requirements are met.

Checking at the door that someone has a piece of paper looking like a boarding pass for that flight does not contribute in any way to meeting any of those four goals.

[Dropline]

Here in the UK we have procedures to meet all four of your requirements, and checking boarding passes at the aircraft door contributes to meeting number 4.

The boarding pass is issued at check in, which is the first part of the screening process. It is then checked again at airport security to ensure only checked in passengers can gain access airside. It is checked at the gate to reconcile boarded passengers and to ensure that passengers who have checked in online have their identity verified and passports checked for validity and visas (airlines get fined if passengers travel with incorrect documentation). Inspection at the aircraft door is a final check to help catch any mistakes that may have been made earlier in the chain. Airport staff are only human, they work long, unsociable hours, and occasionally a passenger may slip through the net and try to board the wrong aircraft.

Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"

[Skipness One Echo]

Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"

Presumably using their cloak of invisibility to get past security and the man at the end of the air bridge. Orders are orders but I'm afraid people don't really believe you when you say it is helping things more than it hinders progress alas. It's no more believeable than the need for security staff to steal water from people. Theatre, theatre, theatre.

[christep]

Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"Travelling on the wrong plane is not a security issue. Travelling without correct documentation is not a security issue. They are both revenue protection issues. People being airside when they are not passengers on a plane is not a security issue provided that they have been through the same screening as passengers to get there. In fact nothing to do with the person's identity or with the validity of their ticket or paperwork is a security issue.

From a security perspective checking the BP at the door achieves nothing. There is absolutely no information on a boarding pass that tells you that the person holding it has cleared a screening process.

[Final 3 Greens]

Here in the UK we have procedures to meet all four of your requirements, and checking boarding passes at the aircraft door contributes to meeting number 4.

No you do not!

Please read the following very carefully, go away, reflect on it and then draw a conclusion.

NOT ALL AIRLINES CHECK BOARDING PASSES AT THE DOOR, not even in the UK.

[christep]

Christep, travelling on the wrong plane COULD be a security issue. I work for an airline with half a dozen flights a day from JFK to LHR. It certainly happens that the passenger has boarded the wrong LHR flight, but the baggage has been tagged and gone onto the correct flight. OK, I only found this twice in the year I flew that route, but let's face it, once is too often and could cause a security problem.Nope - if the bag has been screened this isn't a security problem. If the bag is safe then the bag is safe and it doesn't matter whether the person who checked it in is on the flight. If the bag isn't safe then it doesn't make any difference either given that terrorists are quite happy to die for the cause these days.

The rule about passengers not voluntarily travelling on a different plane from their bags is a legacy from the days when "security" planning was based on an assumption that terrorists wouldn't want to die with their bomb. This has been shown to be a completely invalid assumption. The rule could therefore be abandoned with no security impact.

There would of course be potentially unhappy punters (a revenue protection issue) if their bags ended up flying when they had changed their mind, but that isn't a security issue.

[Dropline]

Security is not the ONLY reason for checking boarding passes at the aircraft door! There are many reasons an airline may decide to do it.

It's a simple way of making sure some idiot doesn't get on the wrong plane! Believe me this happens, and when it does it causes a whole load of hassle, for the passenger, the crew and the ground staff. The airline can get fined, (which is then passed on to the handling agent) the passenger gets sent back on the next flight and the Daily Mail gets hold of the story and has a field day... Someone boarding the wrong flight may not always be a security risk, but it IS a complete pain for all those who have to deal with it.

Not everyone travels frequently, and you would be amazed at the number of people that turn up at the wrong gate simply because they have seen "Malaga" on a screen and don't realise there may be more than one flight going to Malaga at a time. When you have an easyjet/ryanair style free for all boarding scrum, passengers can and do get through the gate checks and try to board the wrong aircraft. This in turn causes delays, which annoys passengers and can lead to penalties for the handling agent involved.

You then get the people who think they can try and sneak onto an earlier flight than the one they booked to avoid paying a change fee. I agree this is more a revenue protection issue, but in todays financial climate, airlines need to protect their revenue more than ever.

An airline also needs to know exactly who is and isn't on board to ensure only accompanied baggage is allowed to travel (this IS a security issue - remember Lockerbie?). And as I said before, if an aircraft were to crash, they would be expected to have an ACCURATE passenger manifest for the authorities to use to contact relatives. Passenger reconciliation to satisfy these two requirements is done at the boarding gate - checking again at the aircraft door is just an extra measure implemented by some airlines. As far as I am aware it is not required by EU law, hence the fact not all airlines do it.

If an airline wants to check boarding passes at the door, they are fully entitled to. I appreciate that the inconsistencies can be frustrating, but each airline has its own rules, and as a passenger booking a ticket you agree to comply with those rules.

Is it really that difficult to show a small piece of paper at the door? And does it really matter WHY you are being asked for it? You never know, it might even be so the crew can welcome you by name, then direct you to your seat to try and speed up boarding and ensure you depart on time!

[christep]

I have no problem with any of that (except the Lockerbie example). I've never said there wasn't a case for checking BPs at the door. My point has simply been that it is not a security issue. One of the many problems with the hassle we all have to go through at airports these days is that so many people invoke "security" as a reason for doing things when in fact many of them are for other reasons entirely (many of which are perfectly valid: revenue protection, accurate manifests, etc). This becomes very irritating to those of us who have the brains to work out there there is no possible security implication in whatever it is we are being asked to do and yet we are not allowed to question the situation because we're liable to get hauled of to jail for pointing out that we are being lied to (this apparently makes us a security risk).

All I ask is that people involved think before invoking "security". By all means if people ask why they are being asked to show their BP at the door then tell them it is a last check to make sure that they are on the right flight (since the system does demonstrably fail in that regard), but please don't insult our intelligence by telling us that this is a matter of "security".

The Lockerbie example is a long time ago - these days the terrorists would just get on board and die with everyone else. Your boarding pass check wouldn't stop that. The answer to bombs in luggage is to screen the luggage. Nothing else will have any significant impact.

[Final 3 Greens]

This article merits a read in the context of the security argument

Replica bombs 'smuggled into Gatwick' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3226565/Replica-bombs-smuggled-into-Gatwick.html)

[west lakes]

I've been interested how many posters jump on the security bandwagon and assumed that when the word security is spoken it ONLY refers to the post 9/11 procedures.

As far as I am aware boarding cards were checked on the aircraft prior to that event and again one of the reasons would have been security. But bear in mind that the definition of the word security covers many things, it may be being used as a reference to internal security policies of the airlines and nothing at all to do with terrorists threats.
It is only the objectors that have taken the "must be anti-terrorist" view of the word security.

Yes it's about revenue protection, correct passenger lists, not ending up with passengers at the wrong destination, not having to sort arguments about seating (i.e. two passengers with the same seat - one on the wrong flight) and I'm sure many other factors. In reality as lot of the above issues will come, in some organisations, under the umbrella of security and there may even be a "security" department within the airline that deals with these policies.
So in many cases the term security correctly applies to this procedure.

An example where I work
Computer security - passwords etc.
Site security - making sure we know who is in our buildings, fire regulation requirement
System security - to keep the leccy flowing
Operational security - to stop folks getting killed in substations
Financial security - the manage the companied finances
Not one of the above deals with any external threats (and we do have them)

[PAXboy]

Boss RaptorPS. In Joburg I was a given a further plastic security tag by a security bloke at top of jetway (after airline gate check at boarding) which u then gave to yet another clown standing in front of the door...approx 7 metres down the jetway with no means of access...work that one outI would hazard a guess that it is job creation. In South Africa (as in many countries) it is often better to have staff being paid a small amount to do simple jobs, than to have more people unemployed.

One example is a road-working crew in a Third World country. You could have a very expensive machine that needs to be fuelled and maintained in a tricky climate far from it's base with one man - or you could half a dozen men earning a living wage. The second may well be cheaper in the long run.

[Skipness One Echo]

When the second flight is due to go, there's the problem, there are cases onboard with no passenger,

In the US in August my bag went on the flight before me out of DTW to BOS as I had a long-ish layover. No danger as it had been screened. Was quite happy that it was waiting for me before the plane was unloaded.

It's a simple way of making sure some idiot doesn't get on the wrong plane!

Well if you keep treating us like morons don't be so surprised we get flustered and occasionally lost....

[AMEandPPL]

Just SO many different aspects and situations and opinions to encompass . . . ! !

I'm genuinely amazed that it has proved to be such a controversial requirement
STILL rolling along, more than a hundred posts later ! !

[west lakes]

Well if you keep treating us like morons don't be so surprised we get flustered and occasionally lost.

From observation folk don't need excuses!

A different mode of transport

Euston Station, departure board shows two trains to two different destinations on adjacent platforms.
Tickets checked as you go down the ramp to platforms, inspectors directing folk to the correct train.
On the train doors in cheerful yellow LED's the train's destination.

Four folk get on to first class (business suits etc. I put that in to suggest they may be reasonably intelligent) and begin arguing that some other people are sat in their seats. Train manager called who points out that the four that have just got on are on the wrong train and theirs has just left.

No security checks, departure board correct, tickets checked, directed to the correct train and signs on every door showing destination.

Could they use your excuse?

[Skipness One Echo]

So we lower everyone to the lowest common denominator as we're all potential morons / terrorists needing continual guidance from people in dayglo yellow? Yes of course we do, we live in New Labours Britain in 1984....er 2008.

[Der absolute Hammer]

AH!
The Mark drops!
The lowest common denominator in the boarding pass monster post - airport security peoples-quasi Stasi.
That is really the reason everyone is so Grumpy by the time of arrival at boarding hatch!

[west lakes]

Yep

The age of people using.having common sense has gone

The age of people being allowed to use common sense has gone in a lot of cases

So in most cases procedures are put in place to allow for the lowest common denominator.

[Skipness One Echo]

The Times and other media have reports today that BAA Security at LGW are so busy looking for bottles of water and yoghurts that the testers manged to smuggle fake bomb making equipment through.
That should not be a surprise as the system has x amount of ability to look for things and 0.9x is looking for non lethal shampoo.....

[Seat62K]

Getting on the wrong aircraft would be entirely possible at, for example, Valencia where Ryanair flights depart at much the same time and where recently passengers for Stansted (myself included) descended steps from the terminal to the tarmac to see one of Mr O'Leary's shiny Boeings - only this one was going to Rome! The Stansted 'plane was farther away!

[fyrefli]

Yep

The age of people using.having common sense has gone

The age of people being allowed to use common sense has gone in a lot of cases

So in most cases procedures are put in place to allow for the lowest common denominator.

Fortunately in the industry I work in, I am able to regularly and with success argue against this sort of systematic dumbing down. One of the Golden Rules of systems design: don't degrade the system for the 95% of people who aren't morons to cope with the 5% who are; educate the morons or exclude them.

That one of my larger clients is an online insurance company certainly helps - after all, they don't actually want to insure morons, so it's a nice bit of self-selection! ;)

[flying cat]

el your arguments are very repetitive. im new to this particular thread and have read all previous posts. you seem to articulate the same opinion over and over. i would be very interested to know what line of work you are in?

[galanjal]

hippotamus, just for the record I would never greet any of my pax by their first names, far too familiar and just not the done thing! strictly Mr and Mrs surnames only.

[dubh12000]

Thought occured to me earlier after seeing an advert from Lufty for it......what will happen when all you have is a barcode on your phone at the gate?

[Mr Quite Happy]

Quite right, the thing that pi$$es me off is that there are inconsistancies, here's this months:

No kids in BA Silver lounge at T5
Kids in BA Silver lounge at Term E in ZRH
Kids in BA Silver lounge at MIA

Check boarding Passes - KLM in ZRH
No check boarding passes LX in AMS

Boarding pass and passport compared at gate before entry to waiting area - LX in D term at AMS
Boarding pass and passport compared at gate after waiting area - KL in in D term at AMS

Security check at airside - AMS for gates D57+
Security check at gate - AMS for gates D1-56

KLM e-boarding pass is one page printout
LX e-boarding pass is two pages of printout

2 security checks for flights to UK at FRA
1 security check for flights to SG at FRA

it goes on, and this is my month's recent travel.

When you **** pax around like this, you gotta expect some feedback. Not your fault but you are the face of the company. Of course, if I only flew one airline everywhere I'd be far more ignorant and far happier.

[13 please]

Mr Quite Happy,

If you exchange "boarding pass" for "ID", it's just like us going to work.! Different airports have different procedures. Ok, we're wearing our IDs, but we still have to stop and hold it up for them,at check-in, security and before we can get on the plane.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out that we have to go through similar things to you..

Apart from flying from LHR,(where we have separate security, and that's for a whole other thread.!!), we go through exactly the same security you do..it maybe sometimes a different channel, but it's the same security.

We're not ****ing you around..

[Mr Quite Happy]

not you my friend, not you.

The airline along with the airports are. Not on an individual basis, but collectively.

They're screwing with you too.

Here's a few basic truths, abreviated because I'm looking after two boys (2y and 5m) at the moment.

easy is repetative, repetative is easy.
variable processes are inefficient and inefficient processes vary.
efficiency = profit, inefficiency = loss

Based on those truisms.....

The airlines and the airports are ******* their Pax around. And probably more than any other industry anywere in the world (though I'd be interested to hear from others!).

A lot of it is revenue protection.

It is no wonder that 'new' airlines and airports can come along and be successful if they don't have the appalling process-baggage of an established airline or airport.

[jethrobee]

I really don't understand why people get so hot under the collar, it takes a few seconds to show your boarding pass to the crew on the plane, and as my grandmother used to say "Manners cost nothing".

Yes, I am a frequent flyer, yes, having idiots in front of me who cant find their boarding cards at the plane irks me, but hey, we can't all be perfect. It doesn't hurt to smile at the crew and wish them good (morning/afternoon/evening) as you board a plane.

Perhaps we shouldn't let grumpy people out of the country, brings down the reputation to the outside world!

[Sven Sixtoo]

May I suggest that, entirely accidentally, all this inconsistency enhances security?

The terrorist needs to know in advance what the system is in order to spot how to defeat it. He wants a high degree of certainty in that process. If the process keeps changing, and has no consistency to it, it makes his task that much more difficult. Now of course the tidy minds haven't designed the system that way, and the chaos isn't intelligent chaos, but it's better than complete predictability, no?

Sven

[easy1]

I can't belive this thread has gone on for so long, how long does it take to get you're boarding card out show it to the crew ????!!! It WILL take longer if pax huff and puff, and swear are you, and what, for the sake of 5 seconds?
Grow up.

[Skipness One Echo]

As an act in isolation itself it's nothing. However it is the last and final, and to many apparently pointless check in a long list of intrusive measures. People are pretty hacked off by the time you smile sweetly and ask to see the same thing that was checked often less than 30 seconds ago. OK that's the procedure and I guess it has reasons that the DFT require it, but in the real world it's a pain in the arse.

[Final 3 Greens]

It's also not apply universally, so many pax who don't understand the system are quite confused as to why some airlines check boarding passes and others don't, e.g.

DO

UK airlines, Air France, Emirates

DON'T

Air Malta, Lufthansa, Swiss

And as the airlines who do check don't have the gumption to tell the pax to keep their pass handy, many get quite hacked off at having to get it out again.

All in all, an example of the poor customer experience that airlines are masters of.

asy1, you need to grow up and develop some empathy.

[B Sousa]

Obviously a lot of posts to a simple question.
I consider the extra questioning of my documents as an added piece of security by the airlines. There are methods on which some could enter the plane after the gate and bewteen the aircraft. Its also appears to be used to better direct the flow and lessen the boarding time.
One thing you do not want when first boarding, especially on a long haul is to get CC placing a Red Flag on your seat number.
Also something I note once in a while is passenger attitudes when there is a delay. Had one recently going through Paris. Two hours late arriving from JFK (big surprise there). People were at the desk demanding this and that and yelling at the staff as though they had created a problem.
I have found that over the years its great to be in line behind one of these people and when your turn comes, just be nice, what can you do for me, please and thank you. The staff relaxes it allows them to focus and I have actually gotten a bump up with a kind attitude.
Try it sometime.

[Mr Quite Happy]

May I suggest that, entirely accidentally, all this inconsistency enhances security?

The terrorist needs to know in advance what the system is in order to spot how to defeat it. He wants a high degree of certainty in that process. If the process keeps changing, and has no consistency to it, it makes his task that much more difficult. Now of course the tidy minds haven't designed the system that way, and the chaos isn't intelligent chaos, but it's better than complete predictability, no?

Sven

Quite right Sven. But it is only by accident so lets not try to pin all our hopes on inconsistancy saving the day eh!

FWIW, it also hinders security for the same reason. E.g staff forget or fail or the process 'breaks'. E.g. staff at the gate think the airplane is checking the boarding cars whilst they think the gate is checking..

for simple example.

Have to go, 2 yo is trashing the other room

[PaperTiger]

People are pretty hacked off by the time you smile sweetly and ask to see the same thing that was checked often less than 30 seconds ago.Smiling sweetly would be nice.

While it's unfair that cabin crew should bear the brunt, that grumpy pax has likely had to get up in the wee hours, endure interminable queues, been growled at by overbearing, capricious security morons and so on. If you can't sympathise then at least empathise, and word your request accordingly. If you make it sound like yet another command don't be surprised at the reaction.

[Shack37]

About ten days ago at ABZ Gate1 which is shared by AF to CDG and KLM to AMS departing within five minutes of each other an announcement was made asking pax to keep boarding passes ready for presentation on boarding the aircraft. Strangely I wasn't deafened by the the screams of outraged pax nor did I notice any low mutinous grumble developing.

Easy
I'm with you, it's no big deal.

F3G, you're starting to sound like your friend SNS3G

[Abusing_the_sky]

that grumpy pax has likely had to get up in the wee hours, endure interminable queues, been growled at by overbearing, capricious security morons and so on

And I too had to wake up at stupid o'clock in the morning, drive to the apt, wait for the staff bus in the freezing cold, queue at staff channel (i don't just magically appear in the a/c), take off my coat, jacket and shoes (I'm still freezing from waiting for the staff bus), my crew bag is checked by the same security people you mentioned, my liquids are tested because of the fear i might lip gloss a pax to death, my food is searched too, when they finish with me i have to go to the crew room, sign in the system, brief my crew, sort out paperwork, make my way to the stand, get in the a/c, do the security checks and start boarding. And before you say "it's my job", well it's kinda... NOT. You see, i only get paid from take off to touchdown so technically it's not my job as i am not being paid for it.
Yet I'm still smiling when i kindly ask for your boarding card. Why? Not only because it's company policy and i have to follow rules I haven't written (take it with them, not the CC) but because personally, i don't trust the gate staff i.e. just a few days ago i was going to PSA and a NOC pax got on board. If i wasn't to check the boarding card, it could've caused a lot of problems.

And the phrases "i just put it away" and "i just showed it to the other girl" are, probably, the most common and used phrases in the airline industry.

I simply don't understand why does it cause so much grumpiness when having to show your boarding card. It'll take 5 seconds to do so and it's part of your agreement with the airline (i really wish people would read Terms&Conditions; trust me, it's all there)

Rgds,
ATS

[take_up_slack]

While I agree that it's unbelievable that this thread has gone on for so long, an experience at BHX recently also served to show the futility of the exercise.

As I was boarding an AFR flight to Lyon the gentleman behind presented his boarding card to the stewardess with a loud and cheerful, "Off to Amsterdam today!" Puzzled silence ensued with a query as to whether he was flying BHX-LYS-AMS or BHX-AMS. As I had to wait for the people in front to get bags and coats away I heard the whole exchange, with the gentleman saying it was funny, normally his company told him when it wasn't a direct routing, and the stewardess agreeing it was indeed strange, but he was probably going to change in Lyon, so welcome on board.

He then proceded to the seat behind me, and proptly got into an argument with the person boarding behind him as he was sitting in the other chap's seat. He then made it back up to the front of the aircraft and last I saw of him was him scurrying across the apron with a ground handler. How he ever thought this was the right plane I don't know, because the gates only get put up at the last minute at BHX, so it's not like there are a list of other flights going later from the same gate to get confused over.

Without wanting to reignite the security debate again, I was never convinced of the "it's for security" argument, and after that little episode, am even less convinced of it. Actually, I can't really think of any good reason for it, especially if you can board with the wrong destination on the boarding pass anyway. But as it's no skin off my nose to hold it in my hand for a few extra minutes after going through the gate. I am one of those people who does show it and I do smile - frankly it takes more energy to be unpleasant.

[PaperTiger]

I simply don't understand why does it cause so much grumpiness when having to show your boarding card.If you have gained no such insight after 213 posts, it's probably safe to say you never will.

[Mr Quite Happy]

How he ever thought this was the right plane I don't know, because the gates only get put up at the last minute at BHX
If I were to take a guess, I’d say of familiarity, I’m always standing the right place just to find out that this week’s exception means I have to stand two feet to the left… Come to think of it, my wife is a lot like this but I won’t go there..

If you have gained no such insight after 213 posts, it's probably safe to say you never will.
LOL

[Abusing_the_sky]

Or could it be because most of the complaining pax are:
a) thick
b) thick and rude
c) ignorants
d) or pure evil, thick, rude and ignorant human beings?

:ok:

[Whirlygig]

I simply don't understand why does it cause so much grumpiness when having to show your boarding card.

If you have gained no such insight after 213 posts, it's probably safe to say you never will.

Some people are well brought up and find that good manners, courtesy and politeness cost nothing; others aren't. The former category will, ipso facto, never understand the latter category and vice versa!

Cheers

Whirls

[srimath]

The CC have a right to examine the boarding pass and the best way would be to compluy with their request. The reason for checking the boarding pass maybe anything security or financial or something else. If asked, show your boarding pass. End of problems.

[Final 3 Greens]

Shack

About ten days ago at ABZ Gate1 which is shared by AF to CDG and KLM to AMS departing within five minutes of each other an announcement was made asking pax to keep boarding passes ready for presentation on boarding the aircraft. Strangely I wasn't deafened by the the screams of outraged pax nor did I notice any low mutinous grumble developing.

This is a good example of how an airline can set the right expectation and make it easy for passengers to comply. I wonder why it is not standard practice?

No reasonable person would take offence to this request.

Yesterday, I took two flights on European airlines. One checked the pass at the door, the other didn't.

As I travel reguarly, I knew not to bother for the first and then to keep the pass at hand for the second.

Neither made an annoucement to the passengers though and one could imagine that a less frequent traveller making the same journey could have "learned" from the first experience and put the pass away and then felt stupid by being stopped at the door on the second flight.

Being made to feel stupid may result in grumpiness (or it may not.)

[Final 3 Greens]

Abusing the sky

I simply don't understand why does it cause so much grumpiness when having to show your boarding card. It'll take 5 seconds to do so and it's part of your agreement with the airline (i really wish people would read Terms&Conditions; trust me, it's all there)

If you wish to understand this, try taking a foundation course in psychology and gaining some insight into personality preferences, behavioural traits and loci of control etc. There are some good ones available by distance learning.

Add to that your familarity with procedures and others lack if it and I'd say things were pretty well setup up for some classic misunderstandings.

None of which, in my opinion, excuses rudeness, but it does help to explain it.

[Mr Quite Happy]

And I too had to wake up at stupid o'clock in the morning, drive to the apt, wait for the staff bus in the freezing cold, queue at staff channel (i don't just magically appear in the a/c), take off my coat, jacket and shoes (I'm still freezing from waiting for the staff bus), my crew bag is checked by the same security people you mentioned, my liquids are tested because of the fear i might lip gloss a pax to death, my food is searched too, when they finish with me i have to go to the crew room, sign in the system, brief my crew, sort out paperwork, make my way to the stand, get in the a/c, do the security checks and start boarding. And before you say "it's my job", well it's kinda... NOT. You see, i only get paid from take off to touchdown so technically it's not my job as i am not being paid for it.

I was going to ignore this post from you ATS as too stupid to respond to, but since you posted the “or pure evil, thick, rude and ignorant human beings?” post I thought I’d chuck it at you instead.

You wonder about people’s attitudes. I for one consider myself a most pleasant passenger, but I do see rudeness in others and so with regards to your post above. You will not understand the attitude if you do not accept that there is a difference between You – who’s job it is to deal with Grumpy people (and gets paid by them) and Them – who are paying for the privilege of flying with you and have been fcked about by the airport and airline. Honestly. We are not equal. We are not friends. We are not colleagues. We are not ‘in these difficult times together’. We are your customers. Now hang my coat up and get me a drink of water, its pills time..

There was a great study by, I think Dr Rosemary XYZ (can’t remember family name) who tried to demonstrate a lack of productivity if you took away from staff certain basics and/or luxuries. She failed to prove her theory but did prove how staff (and others) rally around to help each other in resistance to outside influences. Can anyone remember the name? It would make a good example to bring in now in more detail.

[Mr Quite Happy]

Just adding to the above post that I don’t like that attitude and it is not mine. But folk are folk and the majority will have this attitude. Not now, sitting at their desk eating a chocolate biscuit, but the moment the flight gets delayed 15 minutes they will, or they get charged for being 1kg over on their luggage, or the taxi was more expensive than expected on the way to the airport. And then…

[SLF3b]

Don't know who you work for, but at T5:

- Card in machine to get boarding pass
- Show boarding pass at visa desk
- Show boarding pass to enter fast track
- Show boarding pass at lounge door
- Show boarding pass at lounge desk (honest, some days they check twice)
- Show boarding pass to get a shower
- Show boarding pass to buy duty frees
- Show boarding pass at gate
- Show boarding pass at door of plane

Most days I manage a smile, but sometimes it just gets to me......

[jetset lady]

All through this thread, people are using the "airport experience" to try to excuse their rudeness or grumpiness. For pities sake, can we please stop talking about it in such dramatic terms! Yes, I'll agree that travelling through an airport nowadays is not the most fun you're ever going to have, but it hardly ranks up there with lifes most traumatic experiences. If you can't cope with showing a boarding card a few times without losing your temper, then I worry about your fitness to fly. We are, after all, talking about showing a little bit of paper at the door of the aircraft.

Yes, I do agree that it would be much better if announcements were made asking you to keep your boarding pass handy, and, having seen the views on this thread, I will ask if this can be included in our PAs when the flight is called, but it's really not a disaster if someone has put their boarding card away again. Bearing in mind they have only just put it away, it's usually close to hand. In my case, I just ask them if they would mind stepping to one side in the galley while they look for it. No fuss. No drama. And usually, no tantrums. It's not really that hard, is it?

Jsl

[Final 3 Greens]

I will ask if this can be included in our PAs when the flight is called

Thanks for listening, much appreciated

As regards to your comments about the "airport experience", it has been quite normal for many years to hold focus groups to determine the "customer experience" with dealing with a business and to look for ways of improving that (preferably no/low) cost ;). I did that type of work as a management consultant for several years. )Hint, introducing a call centre with 28 different menus is not the best way :ugh:)

The airport environment (particularly in the UK) has regressed from a customer experience angle for many reasons and the travelling public are more stressed than ever.

Stress manifests itself in many ways, one of which can be aggressive behaviour (in my book grumpiness is at the milder end of the spectrum, but is still aggression.)

Unfortunately, it is by no means only passengers who show this stress, for example the supervisor before the scanners at London City Airport was repreatedly shouting at people yesterday afternoon, when I passed through.

That isn't acceptable behaviour, either and I take it as a symptom of the stress generated by the whole system, as I am sure that the lady in question is quite okay away from work.

[jetset lady]

F3G

I'm at the lower end of the scale so I can't say they'll take it up but I'll definitely suggest it. Don't ask, don't get!

As to your comments on the stress of the travelling public, I can't help but wonder why this has come about. In the UK, at least, we seem to have turned into a nation of spoilt brats. We want it all, we want it now and if we don't get it, we'll do the adult equivalent of throwing ourselves on the floor, kicking our legs about and screaming until we get it! Maybe a steady diet of reality television shows, showing passengers being, sometimes, extremely rude and getting a result from it has coloured our vision.

In the past, we accepted that sometimes, things would not go to plan and if it was down to negligence on someones part, we may even go so far as to write a stiffly worded letter. We also understood that there were going to be parts of the journey that we didn't particularly enjoy, but hey, that was life. Stiff upper lip and all that! Now we seem to have the expectation that everything will go exactly as it should and we will breeze through the airport with never a worry. That's not the reality and we are setting ourselves up for stress before we even walk through the door of the airport.

I'm not suggesting we go back to the good old days where companies, airlines and airports included, could do what the hell they liked and we'd just soldier on regardless, but we seem to have gone too far in the other direction. Certain individuals seem to think that the small, (and they are small in the great scheme of things), inconveniences they suffer excuses them from their own bad behaviour, which they then blame on stress. As I previously said, we are talking about showing a small peice of paper here. We're not asking passengers to strip at the door...yet!

[Tudor]

jetset lady - :D:D:D

[Final 3 Greens]

JSL

I am trying to give insight into the reasons for grumpiness, not to justify them.

For what it's worth, this bad behaviour also affects pax like me.

And as for the behaviour of some UK tourists on holiday................

[PaperTiger]

...traumatic experiences. If you can't cope with showing a boarding card a few times without losing your temper...
adult equivalent of throwing ourselves on the floor, kicking our legs about and screaming...Whoa :ooh:. Hardly the same as being "grumpy".

Ever thought of switching to decaf ?

[Whirlygig]

We are not equal. We are not friends. We are not colleagues. We are not ‘in these difficult times together’. .

Maybe not, but we are all fellow human beings who deserve respect.

Some people believe that respect should be earned; they start off with none and have to prove themselves to gain it. Other people have respect initially until something happens for that respect to be lost.

With respect to grumpiness, and we all get grumpy from time too time, the trick is to recognise that it oneself's grumpiness and should not be inflicted on innocent parties.

Cheers

Whirls

[The Real Slim Shady]

Mr Quite Happy

I'm ATS other half, a Captain with several years experience, and your remark that ATS, and her colleagues in a multitude of airlines,are paid to deal with grumpy people beggars belief.

Grumpy in our business normally equates with excessive behaviour: I have had passengers, business class, tell cabin crew to "F*ck off" when asked if they would like their briefcase stowed in an overhead. I have had cabin crew threatened " I'll be waiting in the car park for you" because the we declined to serve the passenger with an alcoholic drink.

We do not have to deal with grumpy passengers: we have to deal with offensive, often violent individuals asserting that their "rights" supersede those of their fellow passengers or the crew.

Buying a ticket, be it Y,C or F, does not include the right to abuse the crew: the stresses of travelling through the airport can be ameliorated on board if you have the correct attitude. Try saying to the crew something along the lines of " How do you cope with this every day? I've just had the most horrible experience going through the airport / security etc" and see how they react compared to the out and out anger we normally experience.

Normally people who are flying for the first time, or are nervous flyers, are delightful: the real assholes are the "road warriors". Flying on someone else's money and demanding their rights.

I came back from SFO several years ago on a staff ticket: the crew didn't know though. I was given a seat in the centre 4 on the 747: the guy next to me was talking intently to the lady in the seat directly in front me. So I asked if the were travelling together. When he said the were I offered her my seat as I was travelling alone. As we were swapping seats a cabin crew member asked what we were doing so I explained. She then asked if I would trade seats with a woman who was complaining about her seat. " Sure" says I. When I was asked again if I would trade my seat I said " I'll wait in the galley and when you have a seat for me I'll sit down. it will give you 1 seat to play with". The flight was full.

Once all the juggling had been done I was asked to follow the cabin crew lady to my seat: I was offered a First Class seat, which I declined as I was on staff travel, but they put me in business, not because I was staff but because I was helping them out.

If you chill out and are nice to the cabin crew you will be surprised how much of a positive response you get.

A degree of human kindness is never amiss: as ye give so shall ye receive.

[VAFFPAX]

TRSS, :D :D :D

As for ATS' post - That sounds quite like the opening of Air Babylon. :-)

That aside, I didn't realise that BA provided the public with a method to make sure c/crew could be given direct feedback. I'll be using that a lot more then.

S.

[Final 3 Greens]

TRSS

You tell a nice story, where a crew appreciated your courtesy and were pleasant to you.

Ain't always the case.

London City this week, guy is separated from a collegue on an RJ (3-4 rows away.)

We board, crew shut rear door, leave front open, apparently for dispatcher.

Flight about 60% full, pax asks #3 CC member if he can change seats to sit next to colleague after take off (i.e. very polite, understands w&b for take off.)

She tells him "you can change now, no problem."

5 mins later couple of more people board, sit in the front, #2 crew member comes down to check headcount and chews the guy out for moving seats, he says nothing, another pax says "he asked and your colleauge said okay", #2 says "I wasn't talking to you" and walks away.

Grumpiness is not restricted to passengers.

[Boeing7xx]

i got shouted at asking for coffee one too many times today. Since the crew stayed in the same hotel, so it must've been the beds. Ignored her all the way.

PS: I wasn't even a passenger *GrumpS* ((All in a day's work))

[6chimes]

I suspect that in any industry where the primary job of the employee is to deal with hundreds of thousands of people from different cultures and countries, along with the customers who pass through that environment who have paid to receive some sort of service. There will inevitably be times where a breakdown in what is perceived as 'value for money' occurs. Some people's expectations are unrealistic, some customer service workers have a very low standards as to how far they should go to help.

This thread is based on the most trivial aspects of flying today so it shows in such graphic detail how it is the smallest of things that make an experience 'heaven or hell'. Maybe that should be the point we all take away.

6

[Say again s l o w l y]

One of the problems is sometimes a lack of respect in all directions. I have seen pax acting like utter cretins who frankly should be shown the nearest exit at FL410, but as a passenger I have seen CC acting very, very badly when confronted with a simple request from a passenger.

Flying has now become a stressful way to work and travel thanks to the interminable rules and the jobsworth muppets who enforce them. Everybody needs to cut some slack, but as employees of an airline, then it is CC's duty to minimise the impact of these stresses and strains and not let them get in the way. Hard I know.

ATS, it isn't the passengers fault that just getting to work is a horrid experience and I don't really see why they should give a monkeys. It is frustrating and the fact that RYR only pay brakes on to brakes off isn't their concern either.

The showing of the boarding card can be a pain for people, especially those struggling up the steps with a small child in each arm and to the average pax it does seem daft. I would be interested to know how many people have been caught trying to get onto different aircraft by by this check?
I'll bet there really aren't that many.

No Frills airlines only need to do it because they are too stingy to use the airbridges. With an airbridge it's like herding cattle. You check the ticket/ear tag and send them down the shute. They can't go anywhere as they are hemmed in, but on the rare occasion where an airbridge has been used, there has still been the boarding pass inspection.

Rools is rools, but in this case it becomes nonsensical, if there was allocated seating and you were being directed to it, then that makes sense, but in a free for all?

Some pax need shooting, but the vast majority don't and are just trying to get on with the journey they've often paid through the nose for.

Instead of CC sniping at pax and pax sniping back, why not concentrate efforts on getting through a flight in the smoothest possible way and then write to your MP complaining about the security trolls, it's all their fault anyway!

[Final 3 Greens]

It is frustrating and the fact that RYR only pay brakes on to brakes off isn't their concern either.

Just out of interest, I don't usually get paid for travelling time, so my journey to work is normally at least 4 hours (including turning up at the airport) en route to a client. There is usually a nightstop before I start work too, so I don't normally go on to the clock until about 18 hours after leaving home :\:\

Not that that is anyone else's concern, it my decision.

I'm not generally grumpy, either.


Instead of CC sniping at pax and pax sniping back, why not concentrate efforts on getting through a flight in the smoothest possible way and then write to your MP complaining about the security trolls, it's all their fault anyway!

That sounds like a good idea:ok:

[jetset lady]

PaperTiger,

If you're going to quote me, please use the quotes in context. As for giving up caffeine, I'd never make it up from a horizontal position! :\

SaS,

In the last month, we have had 3 incidences on just one fleet, of people getting on the wrong aircraft. 2 were using the airbridge and 1 was on steps, so it seems to have nothing to do with the method that delivers you to the aircraft door. It happens more than you think and definitely, more than it should! (None were travelling from our home base of LGW, I hasten to add!)

I don't quite understand why you say that No Frills airlines need to check boarding passes because they are too stingy to use airbridges. Maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say, but it has nothing to do with airbridges, steps, low cost, high cost or anything else that may come into the equation. We check boarding passes because, in the UK at least, it is a directive for UK based airlines. It's not our choice to make.

As previously said, I do agree that the airlines could help themselves by making the appropriate announcement to keep boarding cards handy, and I also appreciate that it can be a pain when you've got your hands full but I still don't see how it can give someone the right to rant and rave at the door. I will do all I can to help if someone is struggling to find their boarding cards but I've lost count of the number of times people have tried to barge past me, snatched them back out of my hand, called me names etc. all over something that takes 2 seconds to check. Is it really neccessary?

As for those crew and ground staff that treat passengers badly, then they ask for everything they get and the quicker they leave the job, the better for all of us. Unfortunately, todays employment laws are so heavily slanted towards protection for the workers that these people are able to use them to their own advantage and carry on spreading their bad attitude around the work place. But that's a whole other subject! :mad:

Jsl

P.S For the record, I do always ask nicely with a smile!

[Final 3 Greens]

As for those crew and ground staff that treat passengers badly, then they ask for everything they get and the quicker they leave the job, the better for all of us

I'd say it is very rare to find rude cabin crew, more prevalent with ground staff (but not common.)

[PaperTiger]

As for giving up caffeine, I'd never make it up from a horizontal position!Now that's an image I can handle. ;)

[Say again s l o w l y]

JSL, no-one has the right to be rude or threatening to anyone who is simply doing their job. That is not acceptable.

My point is simply that we all need to chill a bit and try to understand where everyone is coming from.

I hate the attitude that I've come across from some CC where pax are just an inconveinence and to be tolerated and I also hate the appalling way that some pax treat the CC.

Neither attitude is acceptable.

That is interesting about the pax from different flights, though knowing how some european airports are run, then nothing surprises me!!!
It shows that the check is necessary.

[redsnail]

easyJet at Luton announce that you will have to show your boarding pass on arrival at the aircraft.

[The Real Slim Shady]

And FR ask pax to retain their boarding cards for production to the authorities at the destination as well.

[Skipness One Echo]

no-one has the right to be rude or threatening to anyone who is simply doing their job

I understand the point you are making, it IS a good one and I sympathise, however you're wrong. One of the main problems we are having in the UK is that people now roll over when authority tells them what to do. Often this authority is not intelligent, often bullying and often incompetent. Local government, Police, PCSO (!), Whitehall, BAA "Security" etc.
We all have a duty to follow the rules within the law, even while we battle to change them. Look at the Tory MP arrested by ANTI-TERROR Police for doing what Brown and even Churchill did for years! These men were simply doing their job, but I would certainly be rude to them as they tore my home apart and rifled through my personal possesions.
As Cabin Crew you are an integral part of a dysfunctional and often incoherent procedure. However nice and hard working most of you guys are, it's not going to get better any time soon while the system you are part of treats us all like morons alas.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yes but ranting and raving at some wage slave is about as pointless as it gets. The rage should be directed at the people who made the decisions.
The only problem being that it is impossible to find out who made most of the decisions that affect us.

Kicking off at CC for no reason is deplorable, they are just being used as a conveinient target and that isn't right.

It's no wonder that air rage is on the rise though, given the stressful nature of your average airport experience nowadays. Unfortunately CC are often the first visible representative of the airport or airline, so they cop the flack.

When you walk through a terminal now, after check-in, the only staff you see are cleaners (occasionally!) Security staff (people generally don't have a go at them even though they cause 90% of the stress), gate staff (10 seconds before boarding commences and conspicuously absent when there are delays etc) and then the CC who are the first you actually have any interaction with.

It's unnacceptable but unsurprising that people get ratty with CC, they aren't having a go at you personally, but at the uniform and the company it represents.

Doesn't make it right though.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Tut tut tut... I leave you kids on your own for one moment, and look what you've done.... Now go sit on the naughty step!:}

Bottom line:
- had a stressful journey to the apt? NOT my problem, not my fault the road was closed for works, i don't work there!
- had a stressful time going through the check-in, security procedures? Again, NOT my problem, i don't work there.
- was your flight delayed because of the weather? Again, NOT my problem, i am not THAT close to God to have a "word" with him about thunder storms.

In fact, i had to go through all of the above, just like you, the grumpy pax. But you don't see me kicking off at the lady behind the till in TK Maxx when some little twa@t messed me about when i was after that pair of gloves. Why are you going off on one when some little security monster/ground agent did your head in following airport's procedures, and THAT is the cause of your stress??

Yes i feel sorry for you and I'll still smile after you've just sworn at me between your teeth when I've asked you for your boarding card. Why am i still smiling? Because, unlike you the grumpy pax, i have common sense and being polite won't cost me a penny nor will it take longer than 30 secs of my life.

Me thinks that "manners & common sense" should be obligatory subjects in school. Maybe, in a very near future, we won't have "grumpy at aircraft when asked for boarding pass" pax because those pax have attended the above proposed classes.

But then again, that's just me:sad:

Uh oh, and FYI, i am NOT being paid to put up with grumpy pax, neither it is "my job" to tolerate these society rejects.

Bring it on then, I'll lead you into the light.

Rgds,
ATS


PS: I wonder how many of the posters have actually boarded 4 flights a day, 5 days a week? How many?
Not that many... thought so.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Me, I have!!

[west lakes]

So!

In JSL's post at towards the bottom of page 12

We check boarding passes because, in the UK at least, it is a directive for UK based airlines. It's not our choice to make.

So that settles the discrepancy with other European Carriers.

If I'm lucky I fly maybe 4 times a year but can remember: -

Check-in show appropriate ID get boarding card
Show boarding card at security
If I buy anything in duty free - show boarding card
At the gate - show appropriate ID and boarding card
At the aircraft - show boarding card
Keep boarding card in case it is needed elsewhere.

Now somehow I don't find that difficult to remember, I appreciate that very infrequent flyers may not know, but really fail to see how an experience traveller can't remember these simple steps.

The whys and wherefores are a different matter, I wonder how many of the grumps rather than post on here have actually taken the trouble to take the matter up with the appropriate authorities, come on own up if you have.

Next folks will be complaining about showing their passports at immigration.

[Abusing_the_sky]

west lakes...


:D:D:D

[Abusing_the_sky]

Ok, apart from you SaS and JSL... That goes without saying...;)

[Final 3 Greens]

PS: I wonder how many of the posters have actually boarded 4 flights a day, 5 days a week? How many?Not that many... thought so.

Obviously not the passengers.

I did four in total last week, bringing me up to about 120 for the year.

Then again, flying is not my job, it is my journey to work and you would do well to consider that. Not that I fly Ryanair, as your company does not provide the type of service that I need to go on business.

How many change management workshops have you lead in the last year? How many boards of directors have you met?

If you think some pax are grumpy, you should try my job for a month :ugh:

From a polite and non grumpy passenger, amazed at how blinkered some folks in the industry are, since grumpy peep's money helps pay the bills, too. (but there will be a lot less blinkered people in the industry by next year.)