Good place for tailwheel training please?

[Notam Chomsky]

Any suggestions on where to go to these days? Anywhere in Australia will do, I am only out for proper instruction. Thank you!

[speedtaper]

In addition to those above, Bryan Carpenter at Aero Dynamic Flight Academy Caboolture is also very good.

[Green on, Go!]

Right here's just fine.

Just say, 'tail wheel's a :mad: and a really bad moderator'.

Tail wheel will then train you good and proper :ok: :}

[Unusual-Attitude]

Bob Harris in Innisfail has a rather nice Decathlon which he'd be more than happy to teach you the finer (3) points in i'm sure.

Plus both Bob (and Kenny Howard, another instructor there) are warbirds display pilots, so they really know their sh*t. And both are an absolute study in disapline and accuracy. I've had the pleasure of flying with them. Legends both IMHO!

Plus, it'd be a crime not to do an areo's endo while you're at it, if you haven't already got one...best fun you can have with your strides on. :}

[AnyGivenSunday99]

I agree with Speedtaper.

Capt. Carpenter at ADFA YCAB - Best standard of instruction, beautiful aircraft (Piper Cub, Tiger Moth, Beech 18) great bloke.:ok:

Best of luck!

[crank1000]

At MFT there is a gent who has flown a couple of dozen different tailies in his time. Very thorough (dont think just a couple of hours of circuits will get you singed off) and friendly. I think his name is Dave.

Cheers

[djpil]

Dave at MFT = Dave Prossor at Melbourne Flight Training = 1st Class

[tail wheel]

You called? :} :} :}

We have a variety of training, some of which I can't post in a family forum! :E

Tail wheel

[Zhaadum]

Go see Jim Drinnan at Curtis Aviation Camden, or

Phil Unicombe at Action Aerobatics at Rutherford.

They will learn you how to pilot an proper airplane real good....:}

[fatboywings]

Hi All,

Thought I would pop my pprune cherry with this post as I am rather new to the scene.

I am doing my PPL in a Tigermoth. I went solo about 6 hours ago (pic). I have been around planes for the last 4 years as my father and I own VH EEI. Not only can you get your tail wheel endorsement but you could also get checked out in a tigermoth at the same time. Very good teacher i think with a methodical approach to all facits of aviation. Vintage Aviation (www.vintageaviation.com.au (http://www.vintageaviation.com.au)) is located and Cessnock (ycnk)

Kind Regards
Ben

[bmgm]

Phil Unicom would be a good option but also Martyn Smith at Adelaide Biplanes (Aldinga SA) has a good variety of tailwheel trainers.....SuperCub, Super Decathlon, Tiger Moth, Sport Cubs...........look at their website

[Horatio Leafblower]

Our company uses Curtis for MECIR renewals, META approvals, and tailwheel endorsements.

Can't recommend them highly enough. :ok:

[VH-BCY]

See Jim at Curtis Aviation during the week, no weekend warriors and no tower. Less fees when the tower is not operating. :ok:

[mattj]

I'd recommend not doing it in a Decath/ Citabria as they are really too easy to fly, and going from that into something less forgiving may bite you on the butt.

I did mine in a Pawnee and am very glad of it. Barry Foster at Leongatha (Vic) has one, and many thousands of hours flying them. Couldn't recommend him highly enough.

Matt

[VH-BCY]

So Matt, why don't you just recommend jumping straight into a C185/DHC-6 or something like that. You need to learn how to walk first before you can run and besides, there has been plenty of runway excursions with the Citabria. Never under estimate the tail wheel aircraft, it might bite you one day and hopefully you won't run into any thing. :D

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'd recommend not doing it in a Decath/ Citabria as they are really too easy to fly, and going from that into something less forgiving may bite you on the butt. I did mine in a Pawnee and am very glad of it.

Mattj, you are kidding aren't you?

I reckon the Pawnee is SO easy to fly that it probably shouldn't qualify as a tail-wheel endorsement.

I haven't flown the Citabria/Decathlon, but in a former life I did endorsement training in the PA18 Supercub - an excellent aircraft for ab initio tailwheel training IMHO!

Dr :8

PS: For the record, I have time in Auster J1 and J5, PA25-150 and 235, PA18, C180 and C185.

PPS: Some time ago I posted the story of someone who tackled a C185 as their first taildragger - it ended in tears!

[BEACH KING]

"PPS: Some time ago I posted the story of someone who tackled a C185 as their first taildragger - it ended in tears!"

Wasn't that C185Skywagon at the hangar party when he tripped over the MLG strut and spilt his rum?:ooh:

[Tee Emm]

Regardless of which tail wheel type you choose, make sure you are not conned into undergoing training in aerobatics as part of the "package." This will double or triple your costs and is a waste of money.

As with every new type you get endorsed upon, the syllabus should include stall recovery, and if the aircraft is approved for spinning then you would be wise to be certified competent at spinning. Most flying schools will claim you need a minimum of five hours dual instruction for the tail wheel endorsement but that will include aerobatics. Once the normal upper air training on type is complete (45 minutes should do it) then the rest of the endorsement should be on circuits and landings including crosswinds. If you are reasonably competent you should not need more than two hours in the circuit. Remember you have already flown other types.

When Tiger Moths were the mainstay of training aircraft at Bankstown in the early Fifties the average time to first solo of someone who had never flown before, varied between six to nine hours depending on frequency of bookings. This included the full gambit of upper air work including spinning and forced landings, steep turns both gliding and powered. All landings were from glide approaches.

As far as I am aware there is no legislative requirement to complete a minimum of five hours for a tail wheel endorsement so make sure you carefulyy monitor your own training records to avoid excess hours that are unnecessary.

[Wombat35]

Tee Emm

What a load of crap! You forgot to mention the accident rate of Tigers in the 50's !!!!!!!!


:mad:

For the average pilot learning to fly.... when trained by a proper instructor like Jim or Phil mentioned below at the appropriate time, you could not spend any better money, whilst learning some potential life saving skills, such as U/A and spin recovery by doing an basic aeros cse as part of your tailwheel endorsement.

[Robin Pilot]

Can't fault the guys at Red Baron in Bankstown. Choose from 2 Pitts, an Extra 200, or an Extra 300. Very very very good outfit. Check out the website.

[kalavo]

A second vote for Jim at Curtis and Phil Unicomb.

And also another vote for the Pawnee being the easiest to fly taildragger... if it was a Cessna they'd have called it a land-o-matic

[Notam Chomsky]

Thank you all! Some very good leads.

PS. A useless snippet of information from the other side of the world: nobody in my country has ever seen, let alone heard of, " The Castle".
How sad is that? ;)

[A37575]

Tee Emm

What a load of crap! You forgot to mention the accident rate of Tigers in the 50's !!!!!!!!



Depends where you were flying of course. I had over 1000 hours as instructor on Tiger Moths in the RAAF over the period 1952-4 as well as a few hours crop dusting at 6000 ft density altitude and and the only prang I saw was when the CFI taxied into an unlit Christmas tree at night. Can you quote the accident rate statistics on the DH 82 when compared with comparable types especially as the Tiger was the primary trainer in Australian aero clubs in that period. Tee Emm is right. You don't need an aerobatics endorsement in order to qualify to fly a tail-wheel type.

[karl8434]

Hi, you could try Airborne Aviation at Camden, they have three tigermoths one you can do your tail training in and private hire later if you want, or if you would like a Citabria, or if you really like a Pitts S2c however maybe start in the something a little sedate first.

Thumbs up for Phil Unicombe, just may mean you would be looking at starting out in a pitts maybe can't remember if he has access to something a little more sedate etc

Jim from Curtis, nice bloke likes to have a chat on the radio though!! (Just jokes jim) that why we call him the mayor of camden aerodrome!

Regards

Karl

[georgeg]

Curtis aviation Camden Airpot Sydney. Jim Druin

[i.dingbat]

That's 'Drinnan', and I'd like to recommend Jim too.

I didn't understand Karl's comment about talking on the radio. Jim doesn't say much, but when he does, you'd better listen!

Curtis has not one but three Citabrias, all well-maintained. I didn't find the Citabria particularly easy, but Jim taught me not to bring the tail up too soon and that certainly helped.

[Robin Pilot]

Errrrm, the EMT course at Red Baron is 6 hours. Yes in a Robin. It's not a tail wheel endorsement. However they will happily check you out on an extra or pitts if you are GFPT/PPL etc. You must have misunderstood. You definitely looked at the wrong course (this thread is about tailwheel).

I knew them very well, spend hours there every week.

However why call if you had no intention of flying with them?

They're one of the most well respected Aerobatic outfits in the country. I say that with some authority having just got back from 4 days at the State Flying comp and listened to the opinions of Aero pilots, School Operators and AAC officials from all over Australia.

[djpil]

having just got back from 4 days at the State Flying comp and listened to the opinions of Aero pilots, School Operators and AAC officials from all over AustraliaI also complimented them on their taste in red wine but they left a bottle untouched in HQ!

[Robin Pilot]

No worries - just trying to help you out.

I'd recommend the EMT though - you'll spend most of the time getting dizzy doing spin training!!

They insist on these things as they have remained a Aerobatics focussed school. When the current owner purchased Sydney Aerobatics School they wanted to keep the aeros as the core focus as they felt it was an important resource for the aviation community. Most schools tell their students what to do in a spin - but very few actually have them practice it - on their own in the training area - pre GFPT! I guess by making you do EMT they are protecting their fleet.

DJPIL - haha!! But you didn't seem too critical about that fact when you cleaned up that same bottle on Monday!!

[Aerohooligan]

I did my tailwheel with Gerry Dick at Redcliffe. Booked it through Redcliffe Aero Club (+61732031777).

Gerry used to be an importer for American Champion Aircraft and has a brand spanking new Decathlon and even newer Citabria sitting in his hangar (the Citabria I flew had 210 hours airframe total time just over a month ago). He has a wonderfully relaxed teaching style and seems to be one of a rare breed of instructor: those with vast industry experience and a genuine love for what they do. He's a very skilful pilot to boot.

Also, you'll get plenty of practice handling taildraggers in somewhat challenging conditions, as Redcliffe often has strong winds in the afternoon and a pretty much permanent crosswind. That's a good thing without a doubt, because the biggest challenge in flying taildraggers is ground handling and takeoffs and landings. Everything else is (almost) the same. Don't worry though as Caboolture aerodrome, which has much more forgiving meteorological conditions, is only 5-10min flying time away, so you'd go there for the first few circuits (the aerobatic training area is, helpfully enough, right in between the two).

I'd highly recommend checking it out.

[Aerohooligan]

Tee Em: I agree with you that specifiying minimum numbers of hours for tailwheel endorsement is often a moneymaking scam. My tailwheel endo was 2.1hrs and to a standard I felt was quite high and definitely safe. Another mate of mine did his tailwheel, basic and advanced aeros in just 1.4hrs...but he's just a freak of nature. :}

I do, however, disagree with you that doing aeros as part of the package is a waste of time. When I did my endorsement I had a very tight budget and as such did not include and aerobatic training, a decision I am regretting now. I feel that an aerobatic rating, if not at least some aerobatic training, makes a pilot much more competent and confident. I base this on observation of the aerobatic pilots I know vs the non-aerobatic types like myself.

We don't all fly aerobatic aircraft all the time, but surely if your C210 got flipped upside down by severe turb it would be better to have been aerobatically trained so that you could recover without overstressing the (most likely 30+ year old) airframe, rather than freaking out about if for precious seconds before rolling and pulling in a ghastly exercise in uncoordinated, dangerously edge-of-the-envelope flying?

All I'm really saying is that I think a certain amount of aerobatic training could only be a good, responsible thing to do (it's on my "to do when I have the money" list, by the way) as a professional (indeed, equally or moreso as a private) pilot. Given that many taildraggers are fully aerobatic, combining the two seems logical.

We're given the lives of our fellow human beings in an environment alien to most and more dangerous than sometimes we give it credit for. Anything we can do to improve our skills and confidence can only be a good thing, IMHO.

[solowflyer]

Did mine with Barry Foster in the pawnee. The Pawnee is very easy to handle maybe a bit too easy, a Scout or Citabria will be bit more of a challenge and a super cub is just pure fun.

I would be aiming for max amount of TO and landings as that is where the main diff between wheel on front or the bum is, when in the air its just another aeroplane. Make sure you do plenty of landings on the seal as well, as dirt strips are very forgiving and you can give yourself a big fright when you land on the seal for first time if you have done all your time landing on the dirt.

Have fun

[FlyCessna]

i.dingbat

I didn't understand Karl's comment about talking on the radio. Jim doesn't say much, but when he does, you'd better listen!

Ummmmm you dont fly at camden much do ya maaaaaaaaaayte? :p

[Kickatinalong]

Jim doesn't talk much, must be a different Jim , the one I know talks underwater with a mouth full of wet cement.
BUT in saying that "Try him he's the best I have struck for years and he IS a straight shooter"
Kickatinalong.

[Mr. Hat]

tailwheel where did you do you training?...the chap is asking!

[FlyCessna]

Clearly kickatinalong is a regular on the airwaves at YSCN...
I really like that description - i might borrow it from time to time :p

[185skywagon]

ForkiePPS: Some time ago I posted the story of someone who tackled a C185 as their first taildragger - it ended in tears!
Not neccessarily. The 180/185 type is the only T/W I was checked out in and have flown.

VH-BCYSo Matt, why don't you just recommend jumping straight into a C185/DHC-6 or something like that. You need to learn how to walk first before you can run and besides, there has been plenty of runway excursions with the Citabria. Never under estimate the tail wheel aircraft, it might bite you one day and hopefully you won't run into any thing.

BCY, sometimes it is better to be uncluttered by what other T/W types handle like.

BeachyWasn't that C185Skywagon at the hangar party when he tripped over the MLG strut and spilt his rum?
I have only been away for a few weeks, and you are already picking on me. Probably fairly close to the mark though.
Bloody Bo drivers.:ok:

[dhavillandpilot]

I got my initial tail wheel and initial twin with only 120 hours TT on a L12A, was so out of my depth it scared me silly - valuable lesson.

No matter what all pilots should have tail wheel as part of their flying carriculum. It teaches you precision landings.

Happy flying

[go_a_head]

Hello guys,
Planning for my first lesson of tailwheel, and found the price in aussie is extremely expensive compared to USA, makes me wonder why?

270AUD per hour inclusive all for super-D? is that normal?

[Clearedtoreenter]

An old school gentleman and a top stick and rudder man too.

Can't disagree with that. Runs the whole friggin airport too!:)

[kaz3g]

There is an Auster at Tyabb and Nick Caldwell gives instruction in it through Peninsula. There is also a C120 which may or may not be available.

The Auster is an interesting aeroplane and, if you master it, will have you well qualified to move onto bigger stuff with confidence.

For an aero endorsement, a Decathlon is a good workhorse and David Pilkington would have to be one of the best choices as a driving instructor. He is pretty mobile and works out of Moorabbin, Lilydale and Tocumwaal from memory.

Kaz

[mcgrath50]

270AUD per hour inclusive all for super-D? is that normal?

Sounds reasonable if not even on the cheaper side. Aviation is much more expensive here than the US due to less support, less volume and more taxes. There is a thread here somewhere claiming its cheaper to go over to the US stay in a hotel and complete some components of your flying training in the states before coming back!

[go_a_head]

yeah, it costs a mere 150USD/hr for that in USA, just the downside is it's so far from HK and the time zone sucks. (but motels there are cheaper too)

I am extremely passionate about this, gonna start comparing prices.

[peterc005]

Jeremy Miller runs a small flying school at Lethbridge and he has a very good reputation for aerobatics training.

They have a very neat Super Decathlon and the massive grass runways at Lethbridge would be great for tail wheel training.

Jeremy's number is 0459 474 340.

[go_a_head]

i am assuming Jeremy is in All Axis aviation, lethbridge? thanks for the number.

[djpil]

Australia is very much more expensive than the USA with the current exchange rate - I'd go there for a Super D at USD230 per hour. Get a tailwheel endorsement in something cheaper like a 7ECA at USD145 per hour. Almost convinced myself to visit the USA for my regular flying fix.
A Citabria at Camden or one of those options at Tyabb will probably be the cheapest tailwheel trainer for a licence - cheaper places for an RAA tailwheel ticket.
Moorabbin is an expensive place to base an aeroplane and the Decathlon is not the cheapest tailwheel aeroplane to operate but, in my opinion, the best tailwheel instructor is David Prossor at Melbourne Flight Training.

[peterc005]

@go_a_head, yes Jeremy runs All Axis.

Here are the details for YLED - Lethbridge Air Park:

LETHBRIDGE AIRPARK :: YLED :: Victoria Australia (http://www.lethbridgeairpark.com.au/)

YLED is probably a less expensive and better place for this kind of training than YMMB. The air field operations would be a lot cheaper and the circuit is usually empty. Arguably, long and wide grass runways would be better for tail wheel training.

As an instructor Jeremy communicates very well and is more structured in his training than some others.

They are a friendly bunch out at YLED and it's a very pleasant place to drop into for a visit on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

[Trojan1981]

So has anyone here flown with him?

I am considering booking in to do aeros with him soon, but want to get some idea of other people's experiences. I have done aeros before, including a few dual in an S-2, but didn't finish the rating. I also have several hundred hours tailwheel time.

Keen to hear from those who have flown with Action/Phil.

Cheers.

[YZToby]

I recently did my Tailwheel Endorsement in the Tiger Moth with Phil and Trevor at the RNAC. Highly recommend them, great instruction and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
:ok:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

So Phil's back in action after the bump?

[Trojan1981]

So Phil's back in action after the bump?


Yeah, Im wondering that too.
Thanks TZ.
So, no Aerobatic course experiences?

[Chu Mai Huang]

Well I'm curious, how does AXIS do training with only a Charter AOC?:ooh:

[djpil]

Jeremy has a flying school AOC at Lethbridge.

Phil is a top guy and very entertaining. Friends who have flown with him thoroughly recommend him. I have never flown with him however.

Phil, Jeremy and myself just share the odd bottle of red on occasion and swap tall stories of strings to measure stall stick position etc.

[Chu Mai Huang]

I see....
CASA website shows a Charter AOC only. Wouldn't be the first time they are light-years behind themselves I guess!

[peterc005]

All Axis is a small country flying school that seem to do a lot of RAA and PPL-level training. This is probably a better option than a large flying school orientated towards airline careers for this type of training.

Personally, I think it's a good idea to do an aerobatics endorsement in conjunction with tail wheel training.

I've done some aeros training with Jeremy and thought he was very good. Flying out of Lethbridge on a fine afternoon is a great way to spend the weekend.

[aldee]

Quote:
So Phil's back in action after the bump?


Spoke with him back in February , all good health wise

You'd be doing yourself an injustice by not spending an hour with him,make up your own mind from there:ok:

[Trojan1981]

I started flying with Phil last week. Having never met him before I was really surprised. He seems to be a really good bloke and a top aerobatic pilot :ok:

Not a hint of pretension or arrogance about him either, which seems to be very rare in this industry.

I don't know about inital tailwheel, but If you want to do aeros there is no-one I would recommend more highly. :ok:

[flying-spike]

Mate, we have been trying to train Tail Wheel for years and he hasn't changed a thing.