VAus - New "EBA"

[Gotwings777]

My mates Dunnunda tell me that there is much rumbling in the ranks. Looks like the HR lady has put her stamp on the a newly proposed work agreement. Same conditions for pilots and cabin crew / 9 days off / available 24/7 even on leave, etc. Won't complain where I am for a while and pleased I only registered an interest. Good luck to you guys who took the leap.

[farrari]

This Is Old News

[RYAN TCAD]

She wouldn't even know its on!

[SilverSleuth]

Tell me what pilot in their right mind would agree to something where 20 y/o something FAs have a say in the conditions, lifestyle etc of the tech crew. This is a new low from the V management. Please read the latest from the feds if your with them or not. Very Interesting read. If anyone knows how to post it please do.....

[ITCZ]

For how long do you have to protect grown men and women from themselves?

Every pilot that signed on with V Australia knew at interview they were signing individual contracts.

Less than a year ago the Federal govt lost an election on WorkChoices, aka individual contracts called AWAs.

Unfair AWA stories were on every current affairs program. The loss of bargaining power, lesser terms and conditions, requirement to go through lengthy civil court proceedings....

The AFAP put out a warning to members about V Aust individual contracts.

Pprune was crawling with posts about the problems with individual contracts during 2006-2007.

There's even a bunch of NJS 717 guys who were pushing to go on strike over individual contracts vs. collective agreements. They won their fight.... and then went and signed up for V Aust on individual contracts :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Some guys have to learn the hard way.

[Mr.Buzzy]

I thought it was a requirement to be able to read English to hold a licence?

Good luck jokers..... going to need it!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[cauldron]

Stupid woman would probably lump doctors and nurses in the same 'agreement' too since they both work in the same environment. What difference should it make that a nurse has different skill sets, length of education, re-currency training, licensing, hours spent studying, regulatory requirements, duty of care and insurance bills as a doctor? They work in a hospital too, therefore they must be the same.

Wonder if insurance companies treat pilots and cabin crew the same?

Check out the properties of the Agreement doc if you received it via soft copy. A fine example of plagiarism. More proof of her brilliance and the enormous amount of effort that went into it. She probably found it via Google, deleted the bits that were too generous and presented it to the boss who no doubt praised her stunning legal mind.

Way to go VA :D

[ad-astra]

FARRARI I think this is the NEW bit!


TO: ALL VA AND VB PILOTS
RE: VA PILOTS TO LOSE CONTROL OVER OWN DESTINY UNDER
V-AUSTRALIA COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
DATE: 26 SEPTEMBER 2008
Pilots to be Swamped by Majority
Numbers
V Australia (VA) pilots have been
invited/rostered to attend a so-called “Safety
Net” meeting with VA management
representatives over the course of the next
week. The Federation has learnt that the
company intends to push a new single,
collective agreement that it intends to apply
to both flight crew and cabin crew.
Due to the higher numbers of cabin crew
compared to flight crew, in a combined vote
of the two groups, cabin crew could impose
a single agreement on pilots, no matter how
offensive it is to the pilot body.
VA management has revealed already itself
as anti-union. It has adopted an aggressive
approach to its workforce, including pilots,
and through this approach hopes to isolate
the VA workforce’s unions (including the
Federation) from representing their
members. It is no coincidence that the
agreement that the company is proposing is
“non-union”.
An Attack On Your Wages And Rights
The Federation believes that the company,
through this single non-union collective
agreement, intends to further reduce pilot’s
wages and conditions (in real terms), your
workplace rights and life style benefits.
The Federation is very familiar with these
types of strategies. VA is not the only
aggressive, ideologically driven, anti-union
company. We saw plenty of them during the
peak of the Workchoices legislation which,
for the most part, we still operate under,
leaving companies like VA at large to attack
wages, conditions and job security.
This Is What You Could Be On The Line
Based on previous experiences within the
industry, VA pilots could expect to be
subject to the following provisions,
inclusions and omissions in the
proposal:
�� A 5 Year Agreement with NO
guaranteed wage increases
�� No Loss of Licence Cover
�� Ability for the company to unilaterally
vary a pilots home base
�� No roster stability or certainty of days
off
�� A requirement to be contactable 24/7
�� Flight and Duty Limitations covered
by company policy, not part of your
Agreement
�� No Death Benefit Insurance/cover
�� Company discretion to pay
allowances, such as meal allowances
�� No certainty surrounding payment of
salary intervals
�� Watered down powers of the AIRC to
resolve disputes with unfettered
powers of the company to terminate
employment, impose heavy penalties
and costs on pilots in the event of
certain grievances.
These could be to name just a few.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots 6/132 Albert Rd South Melbourne VIC 3205
T: 03 9928 5737 F: 03 9699 8199 E: [email protected] ([email protected]) W: www.afap.org.au (http://www.afap.org.au/)
Watch For the Snow Job
No doubt the company will try to sell a
positive message and hope to convince you
how well off you will be under their proposed
agreement. It may even say that the
workforce and company have a common
interest in moving forward under the
company’s strategy.
However, it is critical that each pilot consider
not so much what is in the agreement, but
rather what is not. And; as can be seen
above that list could be extremely significant.
If pilots attend the loosely named ‘safety
net meetings’, you are encouraged to
question what is being put to you.
• How are pilot’s rights protected if they
can be out voted by cabin crew?
• Why won’t the company agree to
negotiate with your union?
• What conditions that most Australian
pilots enjoy won’t apply to VA pilots?
• Am I guaranteed pay increases?
• Will I effectively be at the company’s
beckon call 24 hours a day, 365 days a
year?
Keep In Touch with the Federation
Pilots are encouraged to take notes, keep
copies of any material provided at the
meeting and to contact the Federation
following the meetings.
Whilst the Federation supports the concept
of a ‘collective’ agreement, we are
vehemently opposed to other groups, such
as cabin crew determining the employment
conditions and rights of pilots for potentially
the next five years. No doubt cabin crew
would share the view if the situation was
reversed and the pilots ‘had the numbers’.
This could be a protracted campaign. No
pilot is obliged to agree anything put to them
by the company. The Federation is
developing responses and strategies to
assist our VA members.
However, critical to any strategy is
communication, to inform and to be
informed. We must know who you are and
where you are. We are updating our data
base.
If you are a VA pilot and have not updated your details with the Federation please do so
immediately – either by email [email protected] ([email protected]) or phone membership on 03 9928 57 37.
If you are not already an AFAP member you can down load a membership form from the
AFAP website, www.afap.org.au (http://www.afap.org.au/) or phone the Federation on 03 9928 57 37.
MORE THAN EVER VB AND VA PILOTS NEED TO BE UNITED AND STICK TOGETHER.

[sprucegoose]

The VA HR woman got up in front of a group of new hire management people two months ago and, as part of her horse and pony show introduction, rolled her eyes and said "Pilots....welll what can I say about pilots, they live in a world of their own..." The implication was that not one of respect or decency. There were three other more covert remarks made about pilots as well in the same chest thumping speech where she also pointed out how much she loved working with people etc. Prior to Virgin Group she was a Telstra HR person. What does that tell you. I don't judge any pilot that goes to work at VA as it is at the end of the day an individual choice. However I cringe to think what sacrifices to your career and family and sanity you are really embarking on. I'm not sure there are any redeeming aspects to the job.

[Kanga1]

Could it be that the Boeing strike and undefined delivery date of the first aircraft, has prompted the new VA agreement?
44. STAND DOWN
44.1 We have the right to stand you down with or without pay for any cause for which we cannot reasonably be held responsible.Shame, they have potentially destroyed what could have been a very happy work environment.

[KRUSTY 34]

Are you reading this Sand dune Sam?

Careful you don't fly off the handle at the posters here, lest you might be banned along with the other thread.

That is unless you have been already. Mods?

[DUXNUTZ]

Clicked on here hoping that the pay and conditions had gone up! Couldn't really get any worse.....:eek:

[Howard Hughes]

Couldn't really get any worse.....
Don't bet on it!:eek:

I know a number of very good people who joined VA, I hope for their sakes that things don't get any worse.:sad:

[Sand dune Sam]

Most guys here are informative KRUSTY, and they know what they are talking about. They are seeking information and or letting people know what the deal is. Unlike you they have been flying heavy metal for a while and they have an experienced view point on the industry and where VA may or may not end up. My point again, without getting personal is that we need balanced info here, all the facts, not persistent ramblings about whats right and wrong.
Thanks for your PM, really informative.:ok:

[dirty deeds]

I dont think many people have any sympathy for anyone who has taken a position with V. I know the same old arguments will appear now:

1. I need the Job,
2. I have a family,
3. My wife was going to leave me if I did not accept the job,
4. I have tried every other airline and had no luck,
5. Etc etc etc.

At the end of the day, dont think for a minute that conditions at this place will improve, they will get worse and worse. You have all been warned before about the conditons and the type of people you are dealing with and there are many pilots out there that are watching this space very closely. Good luck with your employment, I hope that its everything you wanted and more. But may I ask that you please do not come complaining to ANYONE about the pay and conditons in the future as the response you may receive may not be the one you want!

[stealthone]

People would just disappear after the first 500 hours, there are various commuting contracts offering better money… Bond can’t hold anybody and in fact it would not even stand a chance in court. Under those terms and conditions, the company practically recoups the 30k bond within the first six months or earlier, so my guess is that VA is preparing for a high turn over of pilots something similar to Air Asia…

[The Hill]

VA is preparing for a high turn over of pilots

What a great way to run an airline.....:rolleyes:

[Gotwings777]

Having read what is actually being proposed (thanks ad-astra) one has to ask / wonder what the actual agenda is. It appears as though the VA management have finally woken up to the fact that the pilots might choose to stand together and become "unionised" and that they are desperately trying to preempt this by implementing the proposed work "agreement". Given the s&*^%y conditions one can understand that the management is worried about union involvement.

It is certainly heartening to see that the unions have gotten wind of this effort by VA management and that a concerted effort is being made to enlighten the VA pilots to the risks / consequences of them signing / voting in favour of this agreement.

The current working conditions of VA pilots are devoid of any protection for the pilot group and the proposed agreement only serves to degrade these conditions even further. Only a pilot who is there just for the conversion and who intends to leave ASAP would be happy to agree to these conditions. Any pilot who intends to remain with VA for any period would be selling their soul by agreeing to what is being proposed.

In short the proposal is probably the most iniquitous that I have seen proposed by any airline management for some time.

I don't agree with some of the posts which suggest that the VA pilots should not complain and that they brought this on themselves. These guys need the guidance / support of the pilot fraternity. If many of our circumstances had been different we might be there too.

There but for the grace of ............................................................

[dirty deeds]

There is no gun to anyones head to sign this contract with V! This agreement is going to bring airline pilots conditions to an all time low and no one has any control over this except the employee signing the contract. No one signs it, there is no contract. The airline then has to raise salaries and conditions to attract the pilot. Very simple solution to a complex problem. But then again I am an idealist and pilots are generally enthusiats! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

I think the tide may be turning D.D.

For years pilots have sacrificed decent wages and conditions for essentially one of two reasons.

The sheer love of flying
As a stepping stone to a better job.The first problem the industry faces (and one that VA obviously doesn't understand) is that Flying does not hold the same widespread attraction it once did. A number of factors have contributed to this, but mainly it has become so common place in most peoples lives that young people are simply not drawn to it in the numbers they once were.

The second problem (which VA faces and obviously doesn't understand) is that few would concieve that a position as a flight crew member on a wide bodied international aircraft to be a stepping stone to a better job!

The majority of posters on this forum have identified this second problem as probably the most serious. A few posters have attempted to justify the shortsighted antics of VA to satisfy their own agenda, with little regard for the greater good. The problem for these people, is they are in the minority. If most VA applicants were prepared to "grab their ankles" so to speak, then this minority would not have a problem. As most are not prepared to accept substandard wages and conditions for what could/should be considered the pinnicle of one's career, then those who are appologists for this sort of caper may just be dragged kicking and screaming into a job where the wages and conditions are commensurate with what the market now demands.

If that were to happen, the competition for these positions would certainly increase, mmm..?

[KRUSTY 34]

Well,

Certainly hit a few raw nerves.

Despite what you think you know about me, you guys are not the only ones that have made sacrifices or had the misfortune of being on the wrong side of airline incompetance and management indifference. That's why I find it bemusing to see "experienced heavy metal" drivers, if indeed that's what you are, lining up for what looks like more of the same.

The fact that I am merely a "turboprop Captain" (sand dune Sam's words) apparently disqualifies me from expressing an opinion. Well, Tough T!tt!es! The majority of those posting here are genuinely concerned for the future of OZ aviation. If you can honestly say with a straight face that what VA are offering is in anyway globally competive, then you must be looking at a different proposal to what I've seen!

Your motives for taking such a position appears clear. And who on Earth could blame you. Nothing I say will change the opinion of VA. So why all the angst? The fact that you are making a decision based on family rather than money is to be commended. Having said that, have any of you actually read the "agreement". You'll be lucky to see them at all!

For what it's worth, I sincerely hope it all works out. But I have one question, do any of you know just how many SFO's VA have signed to date? If I were you, I'd be less worried about what Krusty 34 has to say, and start worrying about whether or not this thing even gets off the ground. I sincerly hope you haven't given notice yet. But I'm sure people such as yourselves would never make a decision without first carefully thinking it through?

[slice]

I am personally very interested as to how many SFOs have actually signed up and where they are from, as it appears sweet FA are coming from VB. Some from Jetconnect and others maybe from Asia / Japan, Air Nugini, Air PAC ?

Lets face it - relative to VB T & Cs it`s crap so possibly only attractive to those wanting to get back to the great southern sandpit.

[Gotwings777]

And pettcoatpilot if you sign the proposed agreement your contract will not be worth the paper it is written on and your working conditions will be dictated by the flight attendants....GREAT.

Remember the wise warnings from the posters on PPrune when you are forced to fly on your off days (sorry love can't be at the anniversay dinner / school graduation VA needs me to work). 38 hours a week (they really had pilots in mind when they came with this figure) x 46 (after 42 days leave) is 1748 hours of work per annum that you will be signing up for. As your flying hours are limited are they going to have you working in the office to make up the rest.

They reserve the right to provide meals instead of paying allowances????

There is no bonus / no overtime despite the FO A$110 - 130 and Captain A$180 - A$200 salaries.

VB and Jetstar pilots stood together and with their representative unions fought hard for what they have. Have a look at their agreements and see what you are missing.http://static.pprune.org/images/icons/x.gif Don't sacrifice your long term prosperity for short term goals

[Kingswood]

OK so we've got some fully paid up members of the hard luck club making a choice they feel they have to make. Cornered and desperate. VA must be thrilled, it rarely gets better from an employers perspective.

At least now I can understand why there have been those willing to accept such a horrendous deal. It really had me confused up until the last few posts.

... but it strikes me as a poor foundation on which to build some change in your life circumstances. Not too many people respect desperation. Some business folk dream of such exploitation.

Kingswood.

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm curious Redflags. Did VH-YES and Pettycoat Pilot PM you with their reasons for deleting their posts. Did they just take their bat and ball and go home, or were there other reasons? Or are you just guessing?

Whether people agree or not, everyone has the right to their opinion.

[psycho joe]

There was a time when a bunch of people left Ansett etc, and those that stayed were considered :mad: who were driving down wages & conditions, thereby ruining the industry.

Then those departed pilots started another airline in Aus and were called :mad: for driving down wages & conditions thereby ruining the industry. Then that airline became accepted as the norm so now people are frowned apon for calling the aformentioned :mad:.

Now a new airline has been formed and those joining are considered to be :mad: who are driving down wages and conditions.

One wonders if we wait long enough will the :mad: in this new airline become the new norm, therefore no longer being considered a :mad:. If this is true the question beckons, should one get in early become a :mad: and then in a few years be seen as the norm but with some seniority.

Or conversely should one stand on the sideline bemoning all the :mad: and never joining them until your own wages & conditions are so poor in comparison that you give in and join the :mad: but not until they are considered the norm by which time you could have had better wages & seniority if only you'd joined when they were considered :mad: and not the norm. :hmm:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Why wouldn't managment offer a sh1thouse deal to test the water? Too bad so many donkeys have jumped at the first offer!

I'd love to see some of you blokes shopping in China.

"Excuse me.... how much is this watch?"
"Ahh dis berry good watch.. you pay 100 dollar."
"Oh great. Can I have 2 watches for 200 dollars."
"Ahh yes Mr. Donkeyman"

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzstoogesbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[No1Dear]

psycho and buzzy
very humorous stuff

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks for the open reply 'YES. As I said, was curious as to why you guys pulled the posts after such spirited replys.

I have read again my posts and I see nothing that be-littles you or your family! After reading Kingswood's post, he certainly had a go, again nothing be-littleing, and I think fairly tame compared with the reply you dished up. Hense my question, why the angst?

The debate on these forums can get robust, and as you, Sam and PCP are new to the forum, you should try and see through some of the chest thumping and actually read the posts.

Frankly I think you guys are totally missing the point. It's not about who's D!ck is the bigger, (well maybe sometimes it is). Nothing Krusty, Kingswood, YES', Redflags, or even Sand dune Sam says will change the way things are. What will make the difference one way or the other is whether or not it will be possible for VA to crew their aircraft whilst offering such substandard conditions. And that my friends is what you should be worrying about.

I sincerely hope it works out for you. No really! I do. If you guys have chosen to come on board, then whatever the consequences good or bad, you can't say that people didn't give you an opinion on it.

Goodnight, and goodluck.

P.S. Looks like YES' has now pulled his posts. Probably just as well guys. As they say. If you can't take the heat....

[Kingswood]

VH-YES et al:

Steeerewwth lads please take a deep breath! Were discussing (what is in the grand scheme of life) a fairly insignificant issue in an anonymous online forum. Had I known you were so sensitive I would not have been so blunt.

Not for a moment was it my intention to belittle you, and I certainly derive no pleasure from observing that you are more than a little upset by my post. Neither do I wish to see you withdraw from the conversation. This is a worthwhile discourse.

To be perfectly honest my interest in this thread stems from my own understanding of what this agreement will mean to you all on a day to day basis: No paid call ins, no real time free of duty, min days off per month, uncertainty in the roster etc all documented above. I simply cannot imagine how your life is going to be sustainable given what I have learned of the VA agreement. I have been there. I know exactly what this feels like, and its going to grind you down.

I assure you I am not trying to rub you the wrong way, or for that matter change your mind. Up until now I was just curious to understand what draws you chaps in to this gig.

I made an observation as to what might be motivating you and some of your colleagues to accept this position. It seemed to me that some of you are doing it tough; tough enough to want out of where you are at any cost. Fair enough. I get it. And it gives me no pleasure to learn this.

But surely the fact that my blunt observation has pissed you off at all should be cause enough for you to ask why? Why should you care what some anonymous tosser on a website has to say about your job choice?

I ask most sincerely: Is there anything about this deal that is bugging you?

Kingswood

[KRUSTY 34]

Rational words Kingswood. But I think they have left the building!

[flyby]

To every person who feels the need to belittle their colleagues or high note their moral stand point , please note that life is one giant revolving door and one that everybody must pass through. We as a professional fraternity are at it again tearing down bridges and building walls between ourselves. We should be helping our fellow colleagues providing assistance and moral support because that is what mateship is all about, if anyone thinks by continually spouting their superior intellect and knowledge of the industry and what they think might happen in the future is of any help to anyone except their ego ,then said person is greatly mistaken. Sometimes a position of humility is the strongest stand to take, we have all made mistakes and all of us will most certainly make more before we die, as was mentioned in previous threads , "there but for the grace of god go I". I realise that we all have strong feelings about the degradation of our industry standards and im sure the guys at V aus do too.The reasons behind what motivated each person to take on such a risk is theirs alone.So lets not argue about who thinks they are right , but argue about what measures we need to take to reply to our industry concerns.One great person was once qouted " Don't take life too seriously because no one gets out alive". Just my humble opinion anyway.;)

[Redflags]

I was one of those who deleted posts like VH-YES below, and agree with every word you wrote.

Thanks :ok:

[Kingswood]

VH-YES,

Genuinely pleased to see your return, and looking forward to further discussion.

Kingswood.

[KRUSTY 34]

So now everybody's friends ;)

Does anyone have an idea how many SFO's VA have actually signed?

[Sand dune Sam]

KRUSTY...in the politest possible way, you are like a little Jack Russell terrier yapping away at the fence. And, I apologise if it came across as me belittling you regarding your current position. I know many good and experienced people who have applied for VA, guys from Vietnam, CX, EK, and as mentioned before, they have varied reasons for either accepting a position or knocking one back. The guys that may have taken a gig at VA couldn't care less about what you guys rant about on pprune as they are doing it for their own reasons, some just because they want to come home.

I appreciate that you have an opinion and good on you, I agree with some of your sentiments, however if you are happy with your lot and not interested in going to VA, why are you being so persistently negative about it? Why does it concern you? You arent qualified for a command or SFO gig and I'm sure you wouldnt like a CFO slot so let it go. I understand that the T&C's cause you concern, but your not going for the job.

On that note, I agree that it aint a good deal at VA, however I did look at it and was able to get all the facts to make a balanced judgement.

Now, how about a little generosity of spirit, I hope that for the good guys that are going to VA that it works out for you:ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

What's the number of that truck driving school Mav?:\

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks Sam'. The question however still stands.

That's if it's alright with you! :rolleyes:

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks YES'.

So there is now an agreement between VA and DJ for employment on to the 737 and then repatriation back to the 777 of CSO's?

That's good news indeed.

Krusty.

[Jabawocky]

So just to spoil the party...... when do you think they will get their first tripler?

J:ok:

[biton]

Vaus pilots coming to VB for upgrades? How's it going to work as VB has an excess of about 50 FOs. There are heaps of VB guys sitting around doing nothing for months on end. I know the current situation wont last forever but I wouldn't bank on that arrangement happening as nobody at VB seems to know anything about it (I hear that includes managers).

[Jabawocky]

Hey boys and girls............. no airframes! Anybody foget that???? Did any of you see my posts in the 777 thread complete with pics from THE FRONTLINE.

The first VA 777 is mothballed at present with no galleys and other interior fitout possibly, its sealed shut till after the strike.....EOM:{

J:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Simply one case in point, and agree Jabba'

Also...

Not enough pilots, sh!tty industrial agreement, Global economic crisis, prospective market quickly evaporating, parent company not doing so well...

Hope not too many have resigned from their previous jobs yet?

Yap, Yap...

[nike]

someone needs to turn that sideways thumb on the index page all the way down.

this was 2 pages of absolute crap.

[flyby]

Well for a bunch of experienced professional pilots one might have mistaken the the last page as a high school chat room, For example KRUSTY to refer to your industry colleague as a caged animal does your credibility no justice , and that's just to name one derogatory remark , well done !
BUZZY you seem to derive some pleasure from insulting people with remarks like Moron and worse , you know thats a good sign that you may have some issues you need to address , as an adult we need to learn that using words to cut someone down does not make you a better person no matter where you work.
SNAP did exactly that again and some result of all this banter ---NOTHING-----
except that----- congrats you feel pumped up by your own self righteousness.
Our industry is in a steady decline and all we can do is line up our mates and pull the trigger accelerating the downward spiral to the bottom. You may feel resentment towards the Vaus pilots for excepting this but in the end of the day its still going to happen in some form or another and all your criticism will accomplish zero. How about actually providing some positive input in how to address these issues and maybe just maybe your fellow aviator might take on your SAGE ADVICE and make a difference in their situation.In turn this may have a flow on effect though out the industry. I can assure you that at the moment all you are doing is isolating each other , DIVIDED WE FALL comes to mind.I admit i dont have all the answers but im sure their is a mountain of knowledge out there from you guys that have had to fight to turn this fundamental shift around and had some success , That is the kind of input this discussion needs not just a lot of pilots throwing dirt.:ugh:

[Blue Ruin]

Seriously, there is a lot of rant on here about respecting each other as fellow professionals, but I can see why we don't.

The question I have for anyone who has taken a job at V is this:

How many people do you know, from other professions, who would accept a job, without knowing their employment conditions?

I can't think of any!

As a result I have no sympathy for anyone that works for this mob and ends up less than happy.

Maybe the Psyche testing is simply looking for optimists...........

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Rumour on the streets is that since the launch of this agreement debacle and the attempt to remove any effective voting power from the Pilots, all the Captains bar one have been offered a you can start on Monday type job with Emirates.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would accept a position with this organsition, unless you are on a Captains salary, irrespective of experience levels, how do you intend on living ?, you know, food power, accom and fuel for the car ?.

If combining the agreements is such a good idea, how about Pilots, Cabin Crew, Executives, Operations, Admin and HR all go on the same agreement, see how they like them apples.

Don't worry Krusty, I'm lower on this food chain than you, as I'm only a grubby little well paid "single" engine turboprop pilot, I feel embarassed just showing my face in public........wow I might rub shoulders with a jet pilot on this thread.

[Gotwings777]

This thread has now really detriorated into a mud slinging match. This was not the intent. Perhaps the personal insults should be sent on PMs that way we don't have to wade through drivel trying to find information relevant to the post.

Does anyone know what has transpired with the newly proposed VA work agreement. I believe the company was holding "roadshows" to try and sell it to the pilots.

I hope that the pilot group made it clear that they are a specialist group and cannot be grouped with the cabin crew when agreeing working conditions for pilots. Are they still proposing a 5 year agreement?

With the delay in aircraft is the company going to make use of the "stand down" clause in their proposed agreement.

Has AFAP managed to make some inroads here. :hmm:

[knowall]

A copy of whats on offer can be found here.
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/150267535/VOZ_pilot_and_CC_agreement.pdf.html)

[Tidbinbilla]

Fair dinkum. Some of you lot carry on like a bunch of schoolkids!

If you have nothing PRODUCTIVE to offer this thread, kindly refrain from clicking the submit button.:ugh:

Alternatively, take it to Jetblast.

[knowall]

The facts. A copy of the proposal can be downloaded here.Download link: RapidShare: Easy Filehosting (http://rapidshare.com/files/150267535/VOZ_pilot_and_CC_agreement.pdf)

[dbxgirl3194]

Just to let you know that the Cabin Crew in the first few groups who are also being asked to sign this agreement also are generally, very experienced, mature crew from a wide range of airlines who know the type of conditions they should be being offered and are not.

They also agree that pilots and cabin crew should most definitely be on separate agreements.

Guys, we need to all stick together on this one and vote NO! We need to bring the company to the table and negotiate better conditions for both the pilot and cabin crew groups alike!

Good luck!

[Gotwings777]

Well said dbxgirl. No matter the reason each pilot has to join VA the bottom line is that they are all good guys and deserve to be treated fairly by the company.

Having read the "agreement" as posted by Knowall (thanks for that) one can only hope that the pilots as a group refuse to sign the agreement and suggest that the company negotiate through AFAP. As pilots we are not really educated on how to deal with management. Management will have taken advice from professional HR people and legal eagles who work with labour issues. The pilots should at the very least do the same in order to protect themselves.

Trying to negotiate with the company who is taking professional advice and trying only to protect its own interests would not be the brightest thing to do.

For the company to try and put the cabin crew and pilots in one group would not be good for either of these groups.

Guys and girls - from us who have been there before and are fortunate to have survived the management onslaught - good luck and stick it out, there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk.

[KRUSTY 34]

Now before anyone flies off the handle, (certainly been enough of that already) What exactly are we talking about here?

Gotwings' and dbxgirl', well said posts. The question I have however is what exactly is the situation with the VA "agreement"? Are VA management inviting the Flight attendant and Pilots groups to vote on a proposal before the company has even commenced operations. Normally if a new agreement fails at the vote, the terms and conditions of the previous agreement apply untill such time the new proposal can be negotiated to a satisfactory conclusion. Is there a previous agreement? Was there in fact a negotiation process at all.

I ask this because it seems strange that even before commencement of operations, and I am assuming with a group of voters somewhat less in number than what the workforce will eventually become, being asked to vote on a proposal that will affect the working conditions into the future of the majority of VA crew that haven't even been employed yet.

Can anyone else see the problem with this?

Quote:

"there are some of us who think that VA has a great future (when it gets off the ground) we just did not have the "b&*ls" to take the risk."

Couldn't agree more Gotwings', but is the (b&*ls) you are talking about, voting down this latest proposal, or actually accepting the T&C's in the first place?

[waren9]

No, I cant.

Can you not see the heavy paradox in the arguments you have put forward in this thread?

On the one hand you've got stuck in made your feelings known about the VA contract and (by implication) the crew who have signed up, but then on the other hand, (which for some reason you didnt bother to explain) you think it might be better that they dont try and improve their situation for the sake of those that may or may not follow them into VA.

What a load of twaddle.

If I extend your logic one step further, would you agree that your own EBA should be rolled over on the same pay and conditions because the crew who arent employed yet arent able to vote? Of course not.

Do us all a favour mate. Turn your computer off for a while.

[Sand dune Sam]

Ditto waren9.......bout time to put up or shut up. I'm sure his wife and kids are happy about the length of wasted time spent ranting on pprune about a job he has no interest (apparently) on applying for:confused:

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks waren9, I'll take it under advicement!

Quote:

"I'm sure his wife and kids are happy about the length of wasted time spent ranting on pprune..."

Welcome back Sam'.

Getting a little personal aren't we? There are a couple of guys having a go at VA over on the other thread, if you want to go over and sledge them as well!

[Gotwings777]

Krusty - Sitting where I am I have mulled over returning to the beautiful place where I was born a grew up (but was unable to get a decent job - read one that paid enough). I looked carefully at what was (actually what was not) on offer by VA and just did not have the "b*#lls" to give up what is curretnly for me and my family a comfort zone.

I have not ruled out applying to VA but I am one of those "back benchers" who will wait for the brave ones to sort out the difficulties before I make a move.

The way I understand it, the VA management have proposed a joint agreement for the cabin crew and pilots. My mates have been told that the individual contract conditions would still apply but that the workplace agreement would also apply - bit of double speak. It appears as though the VA management are trying to avoid having to negotiate with two parties and want to tie both parties to a 5 year agreement which contains no protection for the parties, i.e. no guaranteed process to ensure at least inflation related salary increases / no industrial action / no business class travel / company right to stand you down / company right to contract you to partner airlines / no overtime / no guarantee as to when the roster will be published / maximum hours flying for the basic salary (which is not worth writing home about) / allowances which can be replaced by meals .....................

Me thinks that VA management have realised that the conditions that they have employed their pilots under is far from acceptable and they know that once enough guys / girls have been employed they are likely to form a group and appoaching AFAP to start lobbying for a collective agreement which improves these conditions. They are desperately trying to avoid this. They think that bullying the pilots (or forcing them by including them in a group with the cabin staff) into this proposed "collective agreement" will give them a 5 year breathing space.

As I said I have followed this as closely as I can as I really would be interested applying to VA in the future (ET go home). It is a great piece of equipment to fly and the aircraft looks great (pity that the uniform will be so dull) / it sounds as if the guys there are really nice people (even heard some very good things about some of the management guys) / the training seems to be good (they certainly chose some top trainers) / the commuting seems to work / the salaries are liveable (especially if you have been earning good money and managed it for a few years before joining VA) / and who can fault living in Aus.

Hang in there guys / girls. Use the expertise of AFAP and don't go it alone. Don't buckle - they need you as much as you need the job.

[neville_nobody]

Does AFAP have coverage of V? I thought there was a court case recently over this issue between AIPA and AFAP

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks for the honest and civil reply gotwings'.

My original question was borne out of confusion as to exactly what VA were trying to do with regard to an industrial agreement, that wasn't really an agreement. You have answered my question nicely, and I'm affraid serves to highlight the lack of good faith in which VA are approaching their prospective staff.

I honestly hope you are able to come back. From where I sit you have more B*#lls than some others who have posted hear. Your decision to consider you and your family's future is truely commendable.

Regards,

Krusty.

[knowall]

For those who are unaware. The proposed agreement clearly states that it "contains the complete statement of mutual rights and obligations..... to the full extent permitted by law". Effectively negating any previous agreement/employment contract unless it is consistent with this proposal. See you in court to determine what is consistent. Amongst other issues the proposal gives an immediate pay cut of 8% (as the bonus in the original contracts is now removed) and removes max working hours. It was 1000flt hrs annually in the original contract. The proposal is silent so it can now be what ever V Aus can extract out of CASA. HR...sorry, people manager 'Sue' has repeatedly stated in staff meetings that pilots are precious. Whilst that is most likely true, it doesn't support the treatment V Aus people managers are dishing out. The pilots haven't had a chance to be precious yet. All joined V Aus with their eyes open, hoping the risk is worth what ever personal reason drove them to sign on. Now V Aus has become hostile to its own employees before even receiving their AOC. This happened at VB as well and "lack of trust in VB" became a issue during their last negotiation. (could that be why Sue is no longer at VB?) The real issue is what the agreement doesn't contain; allowances, rosters, loss of license to name a few. The presentation given to staff was upbeat stressing flexibility for the company but offering only a reduction in terms and conditions. The attitude shown by V Aus people management was hostile just like a school yard bully. Just like the school yard bully, if you don't stand up for yourself now they will be back with something worse at the next opportunity. To those reading this who are actually employed by V Aus. You must vote. The proposal is carried with 50% + 1 of those who voted. Just as importantly I would ask you to vote no. Then some real negotiation can start.

[LM82]

:sad: Even if this proposal did somehow get voted in buy majority vote of the Cabin Crew i seriously doubt as to whether they would be able to crew any of their flights with the amount of resignations they would get about 10 minutes after it was voted in.

From the cabin crew wannabee forum it seems it wont be a problem though as eveyone appears to be saying they will vote 'no'

I have nothing against CC's but they should have nothing to do with our t & c's just like we should have nothing to do with theirs.

before you know it the agreement will include ground staff, crewing, pilots, cabin crew and cleaners. I mean seriously if 1 gets through where will it stop?

or are they doing it so the individual contracts look better?
This is truly a new low:mad:

[Gotwings777]

Let us not all dispair - what the VA management is trying to do does not differ too greatly from what every other airline management has tried to do over the years. It took the concerted efforts of the various pilot groups in all these companies to achieve a fair working agreement with their various companies.

Ground engineers, cabin crew and the pilots are the only employees in an airline that can significantly affect operations by withholding their services (legal speak for going on strike). Any airline management is threatened by these groups and the more they can do to restrict these groups from withholding their services, the easier they sleep.

A number of us have said in this thread that the only way the pilots and cabin crew are going to get a fair deal out of VA is if they vote NO. By what has been written on various threads it looks as if this is the way it might go. The management is concerned enough to have dispatched the CEO to try and sell the agreement. Under the current circumstances he must see this as very important or he would be spending his time seeing to other more pressing issues (like finding aeroplanes).

Any agreement that is drafted by one party without any consultation with the other party has to be flawed. VA management are doing their best to sell the agreement as offering protection for the two groups. Oh yeh - since when does any management run around offering the employees any protection when there is not a greater protection built in for the company.

Only time will tell but for their own sakes we all hope that both these groups vote NO

[ReadOnly]

I believe the flight-crew AND the cabin-crew groups each took a vote.

I believe the vote was on whether or not to lump the flight crew and cabin crew together on the ame set of conditions, as far as working hours, days off and other points are concerned.

I believe the flight crew votes were added together with the cabin crew votes and the total was counted for a result.

Question:

Since the vote DETERMINED and PRECEDED the move to joint conditions, then how can the two separate (at the time) groups vote as ONE on the topic of acting as ONE group - IN THE FUTURE?

And how can this be considered a legitimate process?

Sensible answers, please, if there are any. Derision feels good but may not answer my question.

[KRUSTY 34]

The short answer is they can't.

I tried to explain why in a previous post, and Waren9 carried on with some dribble about me not knowing what I was talking about. Sandpit Sam gleefully jumped in and gave him a thumbs up! Of course that's their opinion :rolleyes:.

The real test will be when they (VA HR) attempt to have the "Agreement" certified in the IRC. If I were them I would be putting on my best armour before standing in front of the commisioner.

It all may be a bit academic though when considering the future of the operation!

[knowall]

I know it is difficult for some to understand as several times on this thread it has been reported that the vote has been approved by staff even the % is given. I'll write this slowly so that the less gifted may understand.

The VOTE has NOT been completed as yet. The VOTE by both FC and CC is currently underway. 1700(?) on 19/10/08 is the completion time.

The vote will pass if 50% + 1 of THOSE WHO VOTED say yes.

The CC would be just as stupid as the FC to vote yes. There is no downside to voting no.

In addition, the first 777 is owned by a lease company (not VA), so there is no value in telling Boeing to go slow (who comes up with this crap? open your bedsit window and stop getting high on your own farts). It is in the interests of the leasing company to get the aircraft off the factory floor and in to VA's hands so they can get a return on their investment.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"The vote will pass if 50% + 1 of THOSE WHO VOTED say yes."

Yes, but will it pass in the Comission?

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Krusty,

If you believe the IRC offers employees protection, then I'd say you've never dealt with the IRC.

Do not expect some malignant(IMHO) government department to save the day, this will not happen.

Fight, flight or fright, these are really the choices, good luck folks.

[KRUSTY 34]

Well LRT, believe it or not I've seen the IRC save the day. Not for one minute do I believe because of a sense of justice (Remember the ex KD RJ boys and girls), but at the end of the day they are bound to enforce the law!

Now if I have gone off on a tangent I'll be proven wrong, but I think there may a problem with this sort of HR trickery. History is repleat with d!ckheads that don't learn from it, and just maybe VA HR fall into that catagory.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this vote is all about combining two once seperate industrial agreements (if you can call them that). The original CEO of REX tried this back in 2002 and despite being told he was wrong in his assumption, had to find out directly from the IRC just how little he knew.

The combined REX EBA was delivered to both the Hazelton and Kendell pilot groups for a vote. There were approx 80 Hazo's pilots and around 120 Kendell pilots eligible. As all good managements do when their workforces are at a low eb, the new GM of REX slashed conditions (including seniority protection) and adopted the now obsolete and lower remuneration of the Hazelton group. He had done his research in so much as he was confident that the Kendell group would vote yes, (they had a particularily difficult administration and frankly were ready to sign just about anything!) The Hazelton group stood firm, and told the CEO in no uncertain terms that they would vote against it. The vote was taken and virtually all the Kendell group voted yes, and virtually all the Hazelton group voted no! As far as the old mate at the helm was concerned the deal was done.

The problem was that it was as much a vote to dissolve the 2 existing agreements as it was an endorsement of the new one. Despite being advised not to, the CEO had his HR department take the deal to the IRC. The Commisioner gave REX 2 choices. Have his pilot groups covered under 2 seperate EBA's, or got back to the drawing board and do it properly! You see there must be a majority vote from both employee groups for it to be binding.

Now from where I sit, this appears to be a similar situation. And before you say "VA would have done their homework", I've seen the arrogance and ineptitide of these departments in the past, and have no doubt of their capacity not to learn from the lessons of history!

I guess we will wait and see.

[ReadOnly]

there must be a majority vote from both employee groups for it to be binding......... before you say "VA would have done their homework", I've seen the arrogance and ineptitide of these departments in the past, and have no doubt of their capacity not to learn from the lessons of history!


Thanks, Krusty, that answer appears to explain the situation. It's disappointing not to find a reasonable explanation, though.

[forgetabowdit]

Just heard that it was voted down by 90% of those that participated...

[LM82]

Lets hope that the last 10% didnt vote at all and werent stupid enough to vote YES. Love to hear from anyone that voted yes and try and convince the rest of us what was going through your mind!:ugh:

The not being sacked clause was probably trying to scare people into thinking that they maybe sacked because of the strike and vote yes instead. I cant see them sacking trained crew when they are "supposed to begin ops in a few months" although wouldnt surprise me from what i have heard so far re: VA

congrats to all that voted NO at least the powers that be have been shown that you wont be bullied into anything and a strong message to send them before they are even up in the air.:ok:

ill duck for cover now as im sure some sort of abuse is coming my way!:confused:

[knowall]

This was forwarded to me by someone at V Aus. Out of 164 eligible voters, 119 voted. 12 voted yes and 107 voted no. Confirmation of this vote can be made through Elections Australia via their web site, although it is expected that the official news from the company is forthcoming. When the AFAP met with V Australia on Saturday morning for EBA discussions, V Australia stated that a no vote “is not a failing of the safety net, but of [their] recruitment process”. To be clear; the proposed agreement did not state that staff would not be stood down because of the Boeing strike - That was a personal statement by a People Manager (HR for the uninitiated). The agreement was clear that staff could be stood down.

[cauldron]

It will be interesting to see how the Management react....
Probably like 12 year old brats in the playground.

[Gotwings777]

So what are the VA management implying when the say to AFAP that the failure to ratify the "agreement" is a failure of the selection process - employ morons??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I wonder if the HR person who spearheaded this debacle will receive a bonus for her efforts??:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Congratulations to all of you at VA and good luck in trying to get the company to understand your worth. :D :D :D

[Sand dune Sam]

Gotwings777...absolutely agree, well put. Sort of vindicates why the likes of you I made the decision we did.

For the good guys that are there however, that have returned for their own reasons, lets hope it doesnt go pearshaped.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"V Australia stated that a no vote “is not a failing of the safety net, but of [their] recruitment process”.

Oh that's priceless! How's the air on your planet, the author of that little gem?