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Mac the Knife
25th Sep 2008, 19:17
According to Lloyds List:

British Foreign Office officials are understood to have advised the Royal Navy not to confront or arrest pirates in the region (the Horn of Africa) for fear of transgressing human rights legislation or encouraging their seeking asylum once taken to the UK.

Royal Navy won't fight pirates 'in case they claim asylum' ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/25/royal_navy_pirate_asylum_seekers/)

Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back...

:ok:

x213a
25th Sep 2008, 19:23
Its true as well :uhoh:

Plus a severely restrictive ROE.

Wiley
25th Sep 2008, 20:51
Maybe a quick referral of the archives for all current RN officers to brush up on the way the RN used to deal with such situations in years gone by? Two or three shells from the main armament to the waterline followed by a 'mad minute' from close range by all secondary armament right down to the GPMGs and even the SA80s? Not too many pirates around after that to complain their human rights have been infringed or to claim asylum.

And I suspect, there would be a rapid reduction of piracy in the waters around the Horn of Africa within weeks if not days.



Standing by for the cries of horror from the usual suspects...

S'land
25th Sep 2008, 20:59
Standing by for the cries of horror from the usual suapects...

OK, I'll bite. I am absolutely horrified ....................... That the RN cannot still carry out this procedure.

Rossian
25th Sep 2008, 21:12
And - the French seem to have a rather more robust approach. I feel that Nelson and generations of RN captains must be spinning in their graves at such a ruling. What have we come to?
The Ancient Mariner

Loose rivets
25th Sep 2008, 22:07
Is this what you mean?


Rainbow Warrior

......Hardy since her launch in 1955. She became Greenpeace's first ship when acquired by them in 1978. She was sunk in 1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior) by operatives of the French intelligence service (DGSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rale_de_la_S%C3%A9curit%C3%A9_Ext%C3 %A9rieure)).

mr fish
25th Sep 2008, 22:31
one does not arrest a pirate , one aaarrrests him!!!:ok:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
25th Sep 2008, 22:50
You're just parrotting the obvious.

Noah Zark.
25th Sep 2008, 22:50
It would be damned hard lines if the Royal Navy accidentally ran them down whilst trying to get out of their way.

Wiley
26th Sep 2008, 05:48
... Good idea. They could always say they thought the pirate ship was an uncharted rock. (They've got a good record and recent experience at successfully finding them!!)

lowerlobe
26th Sep 2008, 06:28
Once again in this increasingly politically correct world the bad guys get another reprieve while the victims and potential victims get the shaft .....

Is this not the reason why Saddam got away with murder (literally) for so long while he was alive...(and one could point out other nut cases who run countries)...

It sounds like a Monty Python skit....RN ship encounters pirates attacking a ship or in the vacinity of an incident...."Terribly sorry to bother you chaps but have you seen any pirates around here" or " We would rather you chaps do something else today while we are in the area....it's just not cricket you know"

x213a
26th Sep 2008, 07:58
It sounds like a Monty Python skit....RN ship encounters pirates attacking a ship or in the vacinity of an incident...."Terribly sorry to bother you chaps but have you seen any pirates around here"

You should hear some of the announcements from the bridge wings when issuing warning 1 in the Northern gulf! Sometimes they "gob off" back on their own main broadcast before steaming into Iranian waters.

Blacksheep
26th Sep 2008, 08:07
Planks, walking, for the use of.
Ships, Pirate, prize money for the claiming of.

Ancient Mariner
26th Sep 2008, 08:29
Traded on the coast of West Africa in the early 80'ies. Nigeria in particular was not too nice. Captain flatly refused to head south sans weapons. Shipowner arranged a nice selection of iron. Had to use them twice, once in Warri and another time in Abidjian. Ship fully floodlighted at night, fire system pressurised and hoses and three armed and pissed (off) sailors at the ready at all times.
Those were the days. ;)
Per

tony draper
26th Sep 2008, 08:35
Yer in my day they wudda been raked wi grapeshot the survivors would have been flogged and hanged from the yardarm then flung to the sharks,the marines would have went ashore burned their villages and crops slew the wimin children and animals that wudda been the end of the matter,
Soft shites nowadays we is.
:rolleyes:

SXB
26th Sep 2008, 09:28
I'd suggest the Royal Navy's reluctance to get involved in these activities is more to do with their lack of assets rather than anything to do with human rights laws.

The once mighty Royal Navy now consists of 2 aircraft carriers (plus another in reserve), 13 submarines, 8 destroyers and 17 frigates - plus a number of minsweepers, patrol craft, assault ships and rowing boats. A total of 82 hulls. You'd assume that 'pirate duty' would fall to the frigates. Out of those 17 frigates you'd assume half of them are sailing about doing stuff at any one time - say 9. Given the UK's committments around the globe I'd say it would be extremely difficult for the RN to be able to spare a frigate for pirate duty off the coast of Somalia......

Apparently, in terms of total number of hulls, the French Navy is now larger than the Royal Navy for the first time in history (though the RN is still bigger in total tonnage)

Edited to say;

According to wikipedia 'the Royal Navy's ability to project power around the world is considered second only to the US Navy'

Apparently the Royal Navy also has the second largest carrier force in the world, no prizes for guessing who has the largest.

x213a
26th Sep 2008, 09:51
Harpoon??

yes we have assets. Its just the permissions to use them.

Whiskey Oscar Golf
26th Sep 2008, 10:15
Without getting into one of those arguments I tend to defer to the French in these sort of instances. They seem to lack that initial question of is it right or wrong to let rip. I recall an incident of illegal fishing when after the third warning to pull up and a nice shot across the bow had no response the French deferred to the bofors.The wheelhouse was then turned into matchsticks and arguments tended to be sorted out later. People know the risk of fishing in French waters illegally and it's greater than most.

The level of piracy in that end of the world is beyond a joke and I think the old "what boat?" might help. Problem is no one can keep a secret and everyone wants their 15 seconds of fame nowadays. It's probably a bit harsh but my view is if you point a gun at someone you should be ready for someone to point one back and pull the trigger. People would stop doing it if they stopped coming home with booty, they just stopped coming home.

Yeh yeh they are poor people, we caused it, it's historical, plenty of arguments to justify it, but I'd like to think we've moved on and excuses are like ? everyones got one.

BladePilot
26th Sep 2008, 11:10
Remember the COD war back in the 70's? the great British Navy was put under the same restraint by the politicians despite the fact that frigates were being rammed on a regular basis by Icelandic guns boats such as the 'Thor' not nice staring down at an ice breaking bow as it slices a chunk out of your helideck and the only thing you're 'permitted' to do is shout abuse at the perpetrators!

History repeating itself.

Bring the boys home and lets have them patrol home waters.

Standard Noise
26th Sep 2008, 11:18
Don't s'pose those f*ckers in the FO have any idea why the frogs can get away with it but they think it's against the pirates hooman rites to shoot them?

Where is Carlton Browne these days, there's FO business afoot!

max_cont
26th Sep 2008, 11:22
I don’t understand why it’s so fashionable to blame “human Rights”

If you read Article 2 I believe the Navy would be entitled to take action against pirates and their vessels. Perhaps someone with legal knowledge could shed some light?

It appears to me that the HRC is used by those in power as an excuse for doing nothing.

G-CPTN
26th Sep 2008, 11:33
Pirates off the coast of Somalia have seized a Ukrainian ship carrying T-72 tanks, an official has said.
A report from Russia's Interfax news agency said earlier that the ship had a cargo of about 30 tanks, as well as spare parts for armoured vehicles.
(From:- BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Somali pirates 'seize 30 tanks' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7637257.stm) )

Gainesy
26th Sep 2008, 11:48
Pity it wasn't Russian, Putin would sort the buggers big time.

Lon More
26th Sep 2008, 11:55
I see no ships

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2413983967_fbd265e68b.jpg

Full speed ahead.

oops did you see that?

Wiley
26th Sep 2008, 15:39
For me, the whole sorry exercise has a Gilbert and Sullivan feel to it. Anyone out there who could come up with a jolly set of lyrics to lighten the tone of the discourse.

I am the very model of a modern Naval Officer,
I sail the Main and stride the deck
But my guns are only there for showetc.

Maybe the G&S operetta should be re-named for the 21st Century to
"The Pirates TO Penzance"?

CathayBrat
26th Sep 2008, 20:34
T'ey 'ad the right idea in't th'm days!
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/adsbarnes/Teach.jpg
When was serving in said aformentioned, am sure we were told the Navy still has the right to 'Stop, search, Seize and punish any and all sailling under the Jolly Roger' As many yachts in various places fly this flag as a joke, does the rule still apply?
As for now, Give 'em a whiff of Grape.

SXB
26th Sep 2008, 21:08
I don’t understand why it’s so fashionable to blame “human Rights”

If you read Article 2 I believe the Navy would be entitled to take action against pirates and their vessels. Perhaps someone with legal knowledge could shed some light?

It appears to me that the HRC is used by those in power as an excuse for doing nothing.With regard to international law there are conventions which exist that allow navies and law enforcement agencies to take certain actions in international waters. The Rome treaty, for example, covers the crimes of piracy and piracy with violence. Those countries which have signed up have also incorporated the legislation into their domestic justice systems. Under that convention individuals can be tried in a state which is a signatory even when the crime took place in international waters. The convention also allows the boarding of vessels displaying a suspicious flag - whatever that means.

As regards human rights law in the UK and elsewhere in the EU there is no getting around some of the legislation, but it probably is limited. Firstly, one should understand the gravity of the crime - piracy with violence is a crime up there with murder and high treason, up until fairly recently it still carried the death penalty in the UK. Anyone convicted of this crime is going to prison for a very long term, and if they're a foreign national there will be a deportation order at the end of it. For human rights law some applies and some doesn't, there are specific conventions for incarcerated individuals - the convention for the prevention of torture for example but convicted prisoners are denied certain other human rights. Asylum ? not sure about that, they probably wouldn't have a very good case. But, what if they were also wanted in their home country for a capital crime which carried the death penalty ? That changes things, the UK can't then deport them. Same if they were wanted for a capital crime in the USA, can't be deported.

Metro man
26th Sep 2008, 23:50
Look at the Afghan Airlines hijackers getting asylum and now living it up on social security.

Imagine what would happen if the Navy actually caught a pirate. He would claim asylum, be given a lawyer at taxpayers expense and sue under human rights laws for ill treatment during his capture. Big pay out, right to stay in the UK and bring family members over.

I can't believe what I'm writing is true.:yuk:

G-CPTN
26th Sep 2008, 23:57
Afghans who fled Taliban by hijacking airliner given permission to remain in Britain | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/11/afghanistan.immigration)
It was later found that the hijacking was a drama orchestrated jointly by the hijackers, their families and other passengers in hope of getting asylum.

max_cont
27th Sep 2008, 09:30
Thanks for the explanation SXB.

Of course the solution is to not try to arrest them but merely stop the pirates committing the crime…now I wonder how a heavily armed frigate would accomplish that. ;) :E

TerminalTrotter
27th Sep 2008, 09:52
Q Ships? Give 'em something to think about before attacking.

Wiley
27th Sep 2008, 13:29
Q ships?

If they're going to lure the 'aggghh mateys' in to within cannon range, they'll need to come up with some WRENs who fill a bikini a little better than the the lady who lost her iPod.

I suspect the idea would be a non starter, for the same reason the liquid hijackers are mostly walking out of court now. UK juries think a baddie has to acually commit the crime before it can be proven he was actually going to do it. (Incredibly, in their eyes, a suicide video is "just a bit of fun to scare people"!) Me, with a shipload of armed Somali cutthroats approaching alongside my yach-et, I'd rather do something decidedly terminal (for them) about it from long-ish range, quite some time before it came down to drawn cutlasses (against AKs?) on my foredeck.

I think the RN needs to take a lesson from the Colonials here. Back in the days of 'Black Hawk Down' in Mogadishu, the first Australian convoy in country was on its way to deliver food to a refugee camp, with the Ozmate SAS providing security. The Somali gangs, knowing the rules of engagement that the Americans operated under, (anyone who saw the 'Black Hawk Down' movie will recall the scene of the US helo crews being unable to react to the gangs killing people right in front of them at the beginning of the movie), approached the Ozmate convoy making all sorts of threatening gestures thinking they were safe. They weren't, and learned so in a rather terminal manner - and the Australians were more or less left alone after that.

con-pilot
27th Sep 2008, 17:30
I just heard that a Russian Navy vessel has intercepted and seized the pirated ship carrying the tanks and armaments. Apparently US Navy ships in the area had been tracking the pirated ship and relayed its position to the Russians so they could make the interception.

Some how I rather doubt the Russians will be concerned about the 'rights' of these pirates. ;)

Wiley
27th Sep 2008, 17:42
I reminded of the story of what happened when a Russian was kidnapped in Beirut in the bad old days, when Westerners were being taken almost weekly. Those familiar with the story would probably agree that the Russians 'nailed' the problem rather effectively.

SXB
27th Sep 2008, 22:33
Certainly the Russians will not be concerned about subsequent complications regarding human rights law if they do actually seize the vessel in question. And quite right as well, the priority is to enforce international law and stop these criminals seizing ships in international waters.

The French have already taken action in the past and the individuals who were subsequently caught are on remand in France and will be prosecuted. Though it's important to point out the French acted in this way because French citizens were on those vessels and therefore they were compelled to act. In the case of the Russians any action they take will be for political reasons, they couldn't care less for their own citizens, despite what they say. To be honest I'm absolutey amazed they could actually get a frigate all the way down to the Indian Ocean.

con-pilot
27th Sep 2008, 23:53
To be honest I'm absolutey amazed they could actually get a frigate all the way down to the Indian Ocean.


Maybe we loaned them one of ours, or towed them. :p

Richard Taylor
28th Sep 2008, 10:10
Apparently these pirates are demanding a $35m ransom! :eek:

Haven't they heard of them thar Crrrredit Crrrrunch?

Why can't they settle for a chest of gold dubloons & bottle of rum, like the good ole days?

Pirates are getting VERY expensive these days...:rolleyes:

BladePilot
28th Sep 2008, 10:14
I blame Johnny Depp, encouraging all those copycat crimes;)

tony draper
28th Sep 2008, 10:18
From what I saw of that neck of the woods they would probably settle for a pair of boots and some trousers,it were a flyblown shit hole forty year ago, a shit hole forty years before I got there and will be a shit hole forty years hence,do them a favour,turn it into Pyrex.
:suspect:

radeng
28th Sep 2008, 11:55
A Q ship, take 'em alive, summary trial, hang 'em at the yardarm. Put the film on the Arabic TV station 'Pour encourager les autres'.

but I'm a woolly liberal.............

con-pilot
28th Sep 2008, 17:13
Apparently the report I heard about the Russians recapturing the pirated ship was wrong.

The pirated Ukrainian ship is still under control of the pirates, just off the coast of Somalia and is under observation of a US Navy Frigate. It has been reported that the US Navy Frigate is waiting for the Russian Naval vessel to arrive on scene to take control of the situation. The pirated ship is being overflown by military aircraft, nationality unknown, probably either French or US would be my guess.

The pirates, who have claimed that any attempt to recapture the ship would be 'met with heavy loss of life', have lowered the ransom from 35 million USD to 20 million USD.

The captain of the pirated ship reported that one crew-member has died from hypertension and that he can see numerous naval vessels around his ship, one of which is flying the US flag.

I'm curious what orders the US Frigate captain has if the arms on board the pirated ship start to be unloaded before the Russian Navy shows up. I have not heard of an ETA for the Russian Navy vessel.

There are currently five nations working on the situation; France, Somalia, Kenya, Russia and the United States.

It is going to interesting to see what happens in the next few days.

LordGrumpy
28th Sep 2008, 17:32
Would not want to be in the locality if it heats up. Some may well end up in Davy Jones locker.

tony draper
28th Sep 2008, 17:38
We will probably find out direct from horses mouth Mr Con,the bastards will probably show up at Heathrow ere long.
:uhoh:

LordGrumpy
28th Sep 2008, 17:51
How deep should a pirates cell be?

Wiley
28th Sep 2008, 18:12
They tell me Tigerfish have a rather detrimental effect on keels, which should sort out any question of the pirates unloading the cargo.

It might be time for someone to make that same speech the US official (was it the general?) made to the Somail warlord (Adid?) when he said it was going to take a few months of 'negotiations' to return the downed Blackhawk pilot towards the end of 'Black Hawk Down'.

The problem is, it's got to be be believable... and that might take a Tigerfish or something similar.

G-CPTN
28th Sep 2008, 18:23
AFP: Somali pirates, besieged by foreign warships, demand 20 mln dlrs (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jobxWTmigwctUzwCb1DtFPH5CReg)
threatening to sink it if any rescue operation is attempted, one of the pirates told local media on Sunday.
Somali pirates threaten to sink hijacked Ukrainian ship_English_Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/28/content_10130549.htm)

BenThere
28th Sep 2008, 18:24
How about offering the pirates safe passage out of there for $25 million.

Richard Taylor
28th Sep 2008, 18:34
Lilly-livered cowards, lowering their demands - Blackbeard would be turning in his watery grave.

Do today's pirates still fly the skull 'n' crossbones once they've "acquired" a vessel, or have they dispensed with such niceties such as flying the Jolly Roger? :E

Probably more likely claim to be connected to al Qaeda...:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
28th Sep 2008, 18:35
a Russian sailor died Sunday due to hypertension.

the weapons the ship carries are secondhand, and there is no way to unload the tanks without coming onto land, he said.

Russian ships will not be involved in any international operations. They will do this job on their own.

Earlier this week, a U.S. Navy warship fired warning shots at a small boat that got too close to it, fearing a possible attack.

Mwangura said an Egyptian ship seized by pirates has been released, and a Japanese ship was released after a $2 million ransom was paid.

In addition, a Greek ship was seized by pirates Friday, he said. The ship has a Romanian crew and was heading from Europe to the Middle East.
Hijacked ship captain: Crew member dead - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/09/28/somalia.piracy.ukraine/?iref=mpstoryview)

G-CPTN
28th Sep 2008, 18:57
Sudanese officials say their forces have shot and killed six of the kidnappers who abducted a group of European tourists in Egypt last week.
Two other suspected kidnappers have been taken into custody, but the tourists themselves remain in captivity in Chad, officials in Sudan said.
The tourists, who were seized while near Gilf al-Kebir in Egypt, are being held by 35 other gunmen in the Tabbat Shajara region of Chad, Mr Khaled added.
The kidnappers have demanded that Germany take charge of payment of an $8.8m ransom.

BBC NEWS | World | Tourist kidnappers 'shot dead' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7640837.stm)

larssnowpharter
29th Sep 2008, 05:07
With regard to international law there are conventions which exist that allow navies and law enforcement agencies to take certain actions in international waters

About 3 years ago I was returning from a trip to Palau when stopped by a vessel of the Cousins' Grey Funnel Line.

Boarding party of 6 under a young officer. Gave em all some rum and coke and they went on their way. Reason for boarding: 'Didn't recognise the flag'. I fact the flag belonged to a certain well known yacht club in the UK with lofty connections.

Pirate/smuggler. Hardly. said boat was a Connie 32!

West Coast
29th Sep 2008, 06:45
have lowered the ransom from 35 million USD to 20 million USD.


Hey, the silver lining. Someone still trades in US currency.

G-CPTN
29th Sep 2008, 18:20
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2008/09/29/PH2008092901087.jpg
two pirate skiffs burning in the Gulf of Aden this month after their capture by the international navy coalition.
washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/29/AR2008092900541.html?hpid=topnews)

Meanwhile:-
A group of Western tourists and their Egyptian guides, who were kidnapped 10 days ago by gunmen, have been freed.
Egyptian officials said they were freed in a mission near Sudan's border with Chad, and that half of the kidnappers were killed. No ransom was paid.
Some 150 Egyptian special forces were then sent to Sudan, officials said.
"Italian intelligence and experts from the special forces" in Italy and Germany had been involved.
Egypt's defence minister said that half of hostage-takers had been "eliminated", without giving precise figures.
(From:- BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Abducted Western tourists freed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7641656.stm) )

SXB
29th Sep 2008, 22:57
I'm curious what orders the US Frigate captain has if the arms on board the pirated ship start to be unloaded before the Russian Navy shows up. I have not heard of an ETA for the Russian Navy vessel.


Con-Pilot
Yes, I'm curious too. I think the US vessel is a battleship rather than a frigate (though I've no idea of the difference between a battleship and a frigate) though I'd think they would not be carrying the necessary expertise to take a ship by force, bearing in mind the enemy would be well armed and their main obective would be to ensure the saftey of the crew members.

The same can be said of the Russians (how the hell did they get a frigate that far south ?) and their current track record in hostage situations is absolutely appalling, Their actions in Beslan still cause me to be physically sick when I think about all those children they killed. There was also the Moscow theatre siege where they killed a good 20% of the hostages with poison gas. One hopes that the situation is not addressed by Russian military and another solution is found.......

con-pilot
29th Sep 2008, 23:44
Yes, I'm curious too. I think the US vessel is a battleship rather than a frigate (though I've no idea of the difference between a battleship and a frigate)

No, not a battleship, none left roaming the seas. The lead US ship on the scene is a Destroyer, the USS Howard. However, apparently there is at least one US Navy AEGIS Class Cruiser very close to the area with other support ships, no reports of any Carrier Battle Groups. However, a Carrier Battle Group would be a bit of an over kill, as a Battle Group could remove Somalia off the map, let alone a single ship.

Still no word on when the Russians are going to get there.

Oh, not to worry about knowing the difference between Naval ships, your expertise in other matters more than make up for this small lack of ship knowledge. :ok:

brickhistory
30th Sep 2008, 00:56
One would think one of those unsportsmenlike 'U-boat' things could solve the problem all the way around.

To paraphrase, "No ship, no problem."

Roger Sofarover
30th Sep 2008, 02:31
Brick

Exactly! The only reason you can have people going to the Human Rights Courts or claiming asylum is if there are people around to do the complaining. If they are pirates then send them to the bottom of the ogwash. No questions. The problem would stop within weeks.

Barkly1992
30th Sep 2008, 02:42
no one suggesting extreme interventions seems to mention that there are 20 or so hostages on board.

Roger Sofarover
30th Sep 2008, 03:05
Barkly
I don't think people are talking about sinking the Ukranian ship with all the hostages on board. In general if navy gunboats find pirates touting for business then blow them out of the water, simple.

SXB
30th Sep 2008, 08:43
Con-Pilot, yep, it's true - I know nothing about ships:)

StbdD
30th Sep 2008, 08:44
As usual, we are making this more difficult than it is. Go with history.

The pirates came from somewhere, and more importantly return to somewhere. Follow them home and destroy that port, its vessels and facilities. Pay particularly thorough attention to targets owned by the local ‘leader’ and/or his tribe as history tells us it is probable that he either sponsored the pirates or has a business relationship with them.

At a guess, this procedure will only need to be done once. Maybe twice if they have like-minded but dense neighbors who don’t get the hint.

It's truely a shame that the RN which I once admired and respected has now officially tucked its tail between its legs.

max_cont
30th Sep 2008, 08:54
I bet the Navy would have no trouble in dealing with the pirate problem.

I’d put a months salary on there being itchy fingers on triggers whenever they run across these scum.

The problem lies with HMG, not the men and women of our fighting forces.

Captain Stable
30th Sep 2008, 08:54
AFAIK the penalty for piracy "on the high seas" is still death, is it not? (Shame we no longer have yardarms). We still have a branch of the RM called the SBS, do we not? Can we not put the two together in the dead of night and find a resolution without endangering the hostages' lives? Keep on doing it and the Somali piracy problem will soon disappear.

SXB
30th Sep 2008, 09:24
AFAIK the penalty for piracy "on the high seas" is still death, is it not? Not if they are tried in a British courtroom. The UK removed the death penalty from its statute book in 1998. There is no capital punishment in Britain at all, not even in the military or in times of war.

In 2003 the UK ratified the 13th protocol which means that under existing legislation parliament can no longer restore the death penalty.

con-pilot
30th Sep 2008, 17:10
The pirates came from somewhere, and more importantly return to somewhere. Follow them home and destroy that port, its vessels and facilities. Pay particularly thorough attention to targets owned by the local ‘leader’ and/or his tribe as history tells us it is probable that he either sponsored the pirates or has a business relationship with them.


That is the key to ending this problem. With the surveillance technology available to todays modern navies there should be no problem tracking the pirates to their home bases. Another thing that can be done is track the ransom money and identify the recipients then arrest them and size the funds. If the pirates don't get paid they'll stop.

In high pirate activity arears go back to the old convoy system with vessels being escorted by multi-national naval forces that have the means and the authority to attack and sink the pirate vessels. It is not like it is hard to figure out that when ten or more miles off coast, one sees a gruop of small high speed boats, full of people armed with RPGs and automatic weapons, that they not out there fishing. Plus that, some of these pirates are not all that smart, as one group attacked a US Navy Destroyer, and were blown out of the water.

The 'Q' ship idea is not a bad idea either. :E

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2008, 17:20
It is said that they operate from 'motherships' long offshore.

Update:- 'Shots fired' on ship hijacked by pirates - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/09/30/somalia.piracy/?iref=mpstoryview)

timzsta
30th Sep 2008, 17:53
When i was a Midshipman in HMS Edinburgh in the mid nineties we conducted a boarding of a cargo dhow in the Persian Gulf as part of the sanctions against Iraq. During the boarding a member of the crew asked to claim political asylum. I wasn't privy being so junior as to what happened there after other then he was landed the next day in Dubai.

I met the boarding officer a couple of years later by chance and the incident came up in conversation. He intimated to me it me it would probably have caused less hassle if he got his pistol out and shot the guy.

Wiley
30th Sep 2008, 20:33
From the link in Post #68: maybe it's time Western navies stopped the current nonsense of firing "towards" these ships and started firing at them, with the intention of destroying them completely with minimum expenditure of ordinance. In that part of the world, I think the time for warning shots across the bows is long past.

merlinxx
30th Sep 2008, 21:45
SBS are playing desert/mountain warfare games in the big Stan right now, sold the boats to the French!

West Coast
30th Sep 2008, 23:09
sold the boats to the French!

Nope, gave them to the Iranians.

Krystal n chips
2nd Oct 2008, 06:10
Having watched shots of the ship in question last night on the News, I am curious about how it could be boarded by the pirates in the first place......let me explain.

To a layman, like me, it looked like a fairly large chunk of ship and with a fair distance from the deck to the water...so, apart from the good guys who do this for a living.....how can the pirates ( and I accept they are armed with various bits of weaponry and the cargo boat is unarmed....but considerably larger and presumably moving at a fair few knots as well ) compel the vessel to stop and be boarded ?.

The question isn't quite as a daft as it may seem and I suspect a quite a few people would be wondering the same because, as I say, to the layman it doesn't seem feasible for untrained and poorly disciplined pirates to board a vessel of this size.

Please note, I am not after the technicalities of a "DIY guide to piracy"....just curious as to how it is achieved by those, who in this case anyway, would appear to have a short time left on this planet once the Russian's arrive....negotiations being "limited and one way" I would surmise.

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2008, 14:42
Somali pirates holding a Ukrainian ship with a cargo of military tanks off the Somali coast have threatened to blow it up if they are not paid a ransom.
(From:- BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Pirates threaten to blow up ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7664767.stm) )

And the piracy continues:-
Pirates have seized a cargo ship sailing from Oman to Somalia, Somali officials have said.
One official said the ship had been seized on Thursday between the Yemeni island of Socotra and Bosasso, Somalia. An official in Somalia's semi-autonomous Puntland region told Reuters news agency that the ship seized late on Thursday was carrying cement and that its crew was made up of Syrians and Somalis.
Let them keep it?
(From:- BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Pirates seize Somalia-bound ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7663098.stm) )

Matari
11th Oct 2008, 15:49
Good old Thomas Jefferson had the same problem in his day. Turned out he was pretty good at dealing with the Barbary pirates.

"To this state of general peace with which we have been blessed, one only exception exists. Tripoli, the least considerable of the Barbary States, had come forward with demands unfounded either in right or in compact, and had permitted itself to denounce war, on our failure to comply before a given day. The style of the demand admitted but one answer. I sent a small squadron of frigates into the Mediterranean. . . ."

The Thomas Jefferson Papers - America and the Barbary Pirates - (American Memory from the Library of Congress) (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/mtjprece.html)

Note that he pursued his policy in spite of tremendous opposition internationally and within his own cabinet...

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2008, 15:52
Just heard that a Greek-owned vessel has been seized.

con-pilot
11th Oct 2008, 15:54
I noticed that the Russian Frigate has still not arrived.

My God, are they rowing the blasted thing there? :p


(Western military experts may need to rethink any threats that could be posed by the new, improved Russian Navy.)

Matari
11th Oct 2008, 17:03
Con-Pilot:

My God, are they rowing the blasted thing there?The Neustrashimy looks like a formidable ship; but she was dispatched from the port of Baltiysk in the Baltic sea (kind of begs the question...were there no other assets nearer?)

Neustrashimy Class (Type 11540) Frigates Naval Technology (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/neustrashimy/)

Let's see if I can do the math. The Neustrashimy left port on 27 September. It is about 7000 nautical miles from Baltiysk to Mogadishu, sailing through the N. Sea, down the Channel, through Gibraltar and the Med, and into the Red Sea, down to the horn.

Assuming she is sailing at about 30 knots (love that gas turbine power), that means she would do about 700 nautical miles/day. Given that, she would need about 10 days to arrive at Mogadishu.

Which means she should have been on station and firing live rounds last Tuesday 7 Oct.

Russian vessel rushes to Somalia's coast after cargo ship hijacked by pirates - Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pirates27-2008sep27,0,5499444.story)

You're right, where is she?

larssnowpharter
11th Oct 2008, 17:07
The style of the demand admitted but one answer. I sent a small squadron of frigates into the Mediterranean. .

Further back in history, the Med was full of pirates who were strangling the commercial life of Rome.

Pompey sorted it out in 3 months:

Plutarch's Life of Pompey.


Thus was this war ended, and the whole power of the pirates at sea dissolved everywhere in the space of three months, wherein, besides a great number of other vessels, he took ninety men-of-war with brazen beaks; and likewise prisoners of war to the number of no less than twenty thousand

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2008, 17:11
through Gibraltar and the Med, and into the Red Sea, down to the horn.How long round the Cape?
Would she fit through the Suez Canal? Do they have the fare?


Puzzled:-
September 27, 2008
NAIROBI, KENYA -- A Russian warship entered Somalia's volatile waters early today

Matari
11th Oct 2008, 17:20
G-CPTN:

How long round the Cape?Doing the Google Earth thing, I see that the Cape route adds about 3000 nautical miles, or another four days or so. Maybe they did take the long route, certainly is more scenic down by Table Mountain.

con-pilot
11th Oct 2008, 17:36
Puzzled:-

Quote:
September 27, 2008
NAIROBI, KENYA -- A Russian warship entered Somalia's volatile waters early today


I read that as well, apparently the report was wrong.

larssnowpharter
11th Oct 2008, 18:06
Without looking up all the references, I believe a UN resolution prompted by the IMO is out there and that Somalia has a 6 month agreement to allow naval vessels of foreign states into its territorial waters all to be done within existing international law.

CarltonBrowne the FO
11th Oct 2008, 20:52
I have to agree with con-pilot on this one; track the pirates to their home ports (or to offshore mother ships- they would in fact be easier to deal with) and then pay them a visit.
In the days of the Roman Empire, a Roman citizen could walk the length of the known world in perfect safety, protected only by the words "I am a citizen of Rome." Should he be harmed, the fury of the Roman Empire would descend on the perpetrators, and their families, and their friends, and anyone who helped them. After the military action, their fields were ploughed with salt; for years to come, feeding themselves would be their biggest problem- action against Rome would be the last thing on their minds.

G-CPTN
11th Oct 2008, 21:14
Pirates seized a tanker and attacked a UN food ship that escaped, officials said Saturday, in the latest in a series of incidents off Somalia
69 ships have been attacked off Somalia since January, 27 were hijacked and 11 are still being held for ransom. Pirates are holding more than 200 crew members from various nationalities.
"As long as there is no firm deterrent, pirates will continue to attack ships. But the military cannot be everywhere since this is a wide area," he added.

AFP: Somali pirates target tanker, UN food ship in latest attacks (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVtnKEirL5_QwAkgpuJgAF8Gm3Rw)

pigboat
13th Oct 2008, 01:59
...a UN resolution prompted by the IMO is out there and that Somalia has a 6 month agreement to allow naval vessels of foreign states into its territorial waters all to be done within existing international law.

A UN resoultion huh? That ought to scare the livin' shit right outta them.

con-pilot
13th Oct 2008, 02:09
A UN resoultion huh? That ought to scare the livin' shit right outta them.

Okay, I just lost a Scotch and water on that one. :D:D:D

Now I gotta clean up my damn bar and bar floor. :uhoh:

Back in a while.

larssnowpharter
13th Oct 2008, 02:24
Resolution 1838 "calls upon all states interested in the security of maritime activities to take part actively in the fight against piracy on the high seas off the coast of Somalia, in particular by deploying naval vessels and military aircraft."



And Somalia has allowed any ships to enter their waters.

"to use the necessary means, in conformity with international law ... for the repression of acts of piracy."

Seems to me that it is now up to those that want to kick some butt to get their boots on.

con-pilot
13th Oct 2008, 02:54
And Somalia has allowed any ships to enter their waters.


As if the Somalian Navy could stop anybody, oops, I forgot, there is no Somalian Navy.

Seems to me that it is now up to those that want to kick some butt to get their boots on.

Damn right, and it is time for the US, France, Russia, Great Britain and other western countries to do just that.

Good post.

Hell, even Canada can join. :ok:

(Got me bar and bar floor cleaned up pigboat, thanks a lot. :p)

pigboat
13th Oct 2008, 04:04
Sorry about the Scotch connie. :D ;)

Matari
13th Oct 2008, 18:43
According to this website, the Neustrashimy is indeed the slow boat to Somalia.

"The Russian frigate Neustrashimy appears to be the slow boat to Somali. She left her Baltic sea base on Sept. 24 (a day before M/V Faina was taken) for anti-piracy duty off Somalia. Neustrashimy and called at Tripoli, Libya today, for a two day visit (and replenish its fuel and food supplies). It now appears that the Neustrashimy won't show up off Somalia until mid October, at the earliest. Neustrashimy is being accompanied to Libya by the nuclear powered battle cruiser Peter the Great (which will head for Venezuela after the Libya visit). So much for the earlier concept of Russian ships "racing" to the recue of M/V Faina."

2008 Nightmare - MV Faina - Pirate Attack of The Century (http://www.cargolaw.com/2008nightmare_mv.faina.html#Oct.11)

Also some interesting pics of the pirates boarding M/V Faina at the link above.

Matari
16th Oct 2008, 12:27
Yet another ship taken by Somali pirates, this one the M/V African Sanderling.

This makes a total of 9 ships currently held by pirates near the horn.

And still no sign of the Russian Frigate Neustrashimy, which was apparently sailing from Tripoli to liberate the M/V Faina, which is running short of fuel and food.

Link: 2008 Nightmare - MV Faina - Pirate Attack of The Century (http://www.cargolaw.com/2008nightmare_mv.faina.html#Oct..14)

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd332/bulamatari/disaster2008MVFaina14.jpg

Edited to include link to source website
http://www.pprune.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd332/bulamatari/disaster2008MVFaina14.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

Matari
19th Oct 2008, 16:03
South Koreans paid ranson, M/V Bright Ruby is now free.

2008 Nightmare - MV Faina - Pirate Attack of The Century (http://www.cargolaw.com/2008nightmare_mv.faina.html#Oct..14)

Relatives of the Ukranian nationals held on M/V Faina have collected money to pay the ransom demanded by the Somali pirates for that vessel...all this as the NATO anit-piracy force steams to the coast.

Standing Naval Force Mediterranean (http://www.afsouth.nato.int/JFCN_Factsheets/SNMG2.htm)

Still no word on the arrival of the Russian Frigate Neustrashimy...very interesting that the Russians seem to be approaching this crisis at half-throttle.

pzu
13th Nov 2008, 00:25
HMS Cumberland :ok:

See

BBC NEWS | UK | Navy shoots dead pirate suspects (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7725771.stm)

Also the Russians???

www.rian.ru (http://en.rian.ru/video/20081030/118044766.html)

PZU - Out of Africa (retired)

radeng
13th Nov 2008, 08:21
Good for the Navy! That's giving the b****ers the human rights they deserve. More of it. (Remember, I'm a woolly liberal).

Blacksheep
13th Nov 2008, 09:03
How come they only managed to shoot two (or perhaps three)?

...and another thing, that there boat of theirs appears to be still afloat. Nelson would never have left any evidence of his passing that way.

radeng
13th Nov 2008, 09:22
Blacksheep,

there is an advantage in keeping the dhow afloat. You can sell it. Also, it's a much better discouragement to the the next lot. Not, I admit, as good as hanging the bodies in chains after hanging them, such that the high tide covers them.......

Although no doubt there are some of what may be called 'bleeding hearts' employed by a few local councils who would rather pat them on the head and give them a council house....besides telling the rest fo us which words can't be used.

S'land
13th Nov 2008, 12:12
Just wait for the backlash from the "they are human beings who should be allowed to carry out their work in peace without being shot at by our brutal murdering sailors" brigade. Well done the RN, but a few extra shots would have made sure that none of the pirates would pirate again.

dead_pan
13th Nov 2008, 12:33
Reported in today's Times that the Navy found "pirate paraphenalia" on board the vessel - eye patches, wooden legs, barrels of rum, the usual stuff.

The were probably all our of their heads on khat, to misquote a line from Blackhawk Down. Nothing like a hail of SA80 fire to sober one up.

radeng
13th Nov 2008, 13:14
A few hundred years ago, it was considered that 'dead pirates are good pirates'. Let's get back to that thinking.

pigboat
13th Nov 2008, 14:36
Although no doubt there are some of what may be called 'bleeding hearts' employed by a few local councils who would rather pat them on the head and give them a council house....

Naahhh...probably a foot massage (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/350131-foot-massage-troublemakers.html). Or maybe a full body massage. It is piracy after all.

cockney steve
13th Nov 2008, 14:41
A few boats drifting to shore,inhabited by pirate-corpses, would maybe disuade other natives from the buccaneering lifestyle,whilst returning a vessel upon they could practice an honest trade.

OTOH, complete and utter disapearance does have it's merits.

We can't blame the starving wimmin and childer, but we can help them make a sensible choice of mate or influence their training of their menfolk.

Gaz ED
13th Nov 2008, 18:13
Why are pirates bad?


Because they AARRRRRRR!


TAXI!!

Wiley
13th Nov 2008, 23:41
The Beeeb (no, far more likely Channel 4) will do a tell-all 'docu' on the incident a few years from now, interviewing 'in depth' everyone who was on the dhow and the brother-in-law of a bloke who knew someone who drank in the same pub as a bloke who knew an ex-RN sailor who washed out in recruit training, but not before he had spoken once with a bloke who once served on a ship that was a bit like the Cumberland (or was it a cross Channel ferry)?

The same Scotland Yard team who were dispatched to the Falklands to investigate those terrible Tommies who actually shot the enemy soldiers who ten seconds earlier had been merrily machine-gunning them will be dragged out from retirement and sent to Somalia to investigate the unwarranted use of force by HM Forces.

We can only hope the captain of the Cumberland will by then have gone to meet his Maker, for surely, details of such barbarity will emerge about the behaviour of his undisciplined boarding party, who, it will be alleged in shocked, almost stutter-inducing disbelief, used live ammunition to subdue the poor Somali fishermen they unwarrantedly attacked that his pension will otherwise almost surely be revoked and he and at least five of his officers may well face a gaol term.

The survivors of the dhow and all their extended families will all be granted multi-milion Pound compensation packages, five bedroom council houses in Kensignton, replacement dhows and licences to fish in the English Channel using their traditional fishing methods.

However, since RPG7s, their most favoured traditional method of catching fish off the Somali coast are not freely available in the UK, they will be supplied with a UK/NATO equivalent, obviously free of charge, for life.

chuks
14th Nov 2008, 07:34
I saw a documentary on satellite TV not long ago where a crew from German television interviewed an ex-pirate in front of some Somali jail. He seemed a bit confused in his thinking but then, yes, perhaps he was chewing something that wasn't Wrigley's Spearmint. Anyway he said that the pirates were functioning as some sort of inofficial Customs service, working on their own initiative to sort out those cheeky foreigners who thought they could just use Somali coastal waters for free passage without paying any dues.

You could see his point; it made me think of a New York City squeegee man working a line of luxury cars stopped at a light, the way this man made it sound so harmless. Plus he looked so harmless, pathetic even, there in front of the jail blinking in the sunlight. It is just a pity we couldn't see him all tooled up in his pirate prime, when he might have cut more of a dash.

You know it is just a short step from that to, yes, meeting up with the bereaved widow and bairns of one of these innocent fishermen, shot down in cold blood by brutal British tars as he was just out there waving at the big boat. (With an RPG, yes but that was just Somali for "Hello sailor.") In fact, I think we can bet that someone is on the trail of these criminals as this hits the screen.

By "criminals" do I mean the pirates or the Brits? Yes! An enterprising reporter could sell the same interview two different ways to the Torygraph and the Grauniad.

Keep in mind that African mindset that any death, for whatever reason, means blood money, "wergeld". Some granny runs across the expressway, when you bunt her into the afterlife. If you are lucky you merely have to pay a bundle of money to the family who had paid zero attention to her when she was still uselessly alive but now have lost the absolute center of family life. Here some useless, khat-chewing, wife- and child-beating, layabout beach bum shall mutate into one of the leading citizens of the local marine business unit.

Pinky the pilot
14th Nov 2008, 09:49
All of this just makes me wonder why the old practice of armed merchant ships has not been resurrected.:confused:

A few quad 50cal MGs and 20mm cannon stations mounted in appropriate places would more than suffice I should think.:hmm:

chuks
14th Nov 2008, 11:56
There is just so darn much ordinance available in Africa that if you blew a boatful of toe-rags to kingdom come with your .50 calibre machine gun, even assuming that would be allowed on a merchant navy ship in the first place, then their cousins would show up the very next day with a 23 mm. anti-aircraft cannon and ruin your whole day just to prove their point!

These guys do not react the way you might think as a Westerner they would. You get a big gun, they just think, "Oh goody!" and go looking for a bigger gun. Check out all those pictures of "technicals" to see what I mean here.

I think this is one where protection has to come from a combination of the rule of law ashore and someone or other's navy or coast guard afloat.

Not least, I don't think you could get insurance for an armed merchant ship from Lloyds. That would put you over there in the "excluded risks" column. Too, just imagine writing the HSE Risk Assessment for that one. Someone could step on a .50 cartridge and lose their footing, say.

Evening Star
14th Nov 2008, 16:08
By "criminals" do I mean the pirates or the Brits? Yes! An enterprising reporter could sell the same interview two different ways to the Torygraph and the Grauniad.

Not a lot of hand wringing in this Graunaid report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/13/pirates-killed-gulf-aden). Presumably therefore the Torygraph is doing a lot of stuff about the rights of the pirates?:8

chuks
14th Nov 2008, 16:27
We need to see the Wimmin's Page for the "widows and bairns" angle, I think. This was just a couple of boring old men reporting facts.

I will be very surprised if we do not get something telling us which way to think about this in the Grauniad in conjunction with some questions being raised in Parliament about trigger-happy tars running wild, by one of the usual suspects.

Come to that, where are the sandalistas here? Are they still sulking over having had all their carefully worlked-out codswallop about my Evil Empire Mk II jettisoned by Jetblast Mods?

Come on lads, there is more to life than just politics! Try and explain how it is that what we call "piracy" is just a perfectly understandable response to capitalist exploitation and how these poor folk really need love and understanding. Love, understanding and community organisers!

Storminnorm
14th Nov 2008, 17:13
Don't know what all the fuss is about.
Just buy an old sub and surface underneath any
"dhow" that you see through the periscope that
looks to be a bit "Iffy".
I shouldn't think that they carry a lot of survival
equipment. And it wouldn't be very noisy.
Those old "U" boats with a jagged bit at the front
would be ideal. :E

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
14th Nov 2008, 17:16
Now we have a new angle;

Off the coast of Somalia: 'We're not pirates. These are our waters, not theirs' - Africa, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/off-the-coast-of-somalia-were-not-pirates-these-are-our-waters-not-theirs-1017962.html)

To foreign ships, they're a scourge but Daniel Howden and Abdinasir Mohamed Guled discover that Somalia's pirates see things very differently

pzu
14th Nov 2008, 18:13
Still no official statement from MOD re Cumberland's action!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (retired)

Wiley
14th Nov 2008, 22:28
I know there was huge resistance to the idea from shipping companies in both WW1 and 2 because of the delays (and therefore costs) involved, but has the problem reached the stage of Somalia now where a convoy system needs to be implemented?

Surely a three to five day delay (or however many days) far enough south or north of the problem area while enough ships gather to give the naval forces a nice, compact 'box' of seaspace to protect would be a cheaper option for the shipping companies than paying multi millions in bribes after losing months of sea time?

I could picture a Notice to Mariners being posted saying that ANY ship approaching within 10nm of any such convoy while it steams between latitudes 'n' and 'x' will be considered hostile and treated as such. No warning shots across bows, no boarding parties, just a 5" shell aimed at the waterline.

Low Flier
14th Nov 2008, 23:00
Five days demurrage for half a dozen ships is a collossal cost.

Much cheaper simply to pay the insurance surcharge and get on with the voyage.

Anyway, Somalia is only one of dozens of piracy hotspots around the world. It is hopelessly impractical to implement some kind of convoy system to deal with all those areas. There simply aren't enough navies to do the job, even if you could persuade the navies' governments to pay the vast cost of providing escorts.

You can do that in a tiny area of high density and high value shipping, such as the Gulf's Hormuz or Ba'ab el Wossname at the nether end of the Red Sea, but it's just not the type of operation that can be scaled up much at all.

Then there's the danger, if you allow Murricanes to get involved, that the nutters will do another Vincennes job.

con-pilot
14th Nov 2008, 23:51
Then there's the danger, if you allow Murricanes to get involved, that the nutters will do another Vincennes job.

First off, we are already there, otherwise there would be a buch of Russian tanks in the hands of the pirates. Secondly, political and that type of posts have been banned by the mods. :=

Just thought I'd let you know.

henry crun
15th Nov 2008, 03:39
I know nothing about boats/ships, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can answer a few questions.

The average cargo vessel gets along at what, 15kts....20kts ? or thereabouts.
At that speed the wash would surely tend to push another much smaller boat away if it tried to formate alongside.

How do these Somali pirates get on board ? are their boats too small to be picked up on the ships radar ? do the cargo ships just bumble along without any extra lookouts in what are known to be dangerous waters ?

Matari
15th Nov 2008, 04:15
Henry:


The website ibelow is in dire need of a good webmaster, but there seems to be lots of good information about ship hijacking. Here's a bit of explanation on pirate techniques:"The time of attack is almost always between 1:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. During those hours, most of the crew is either asleep, on the bridge or below decks in noisy engine spaces. Little attention is paid to the sound of grappling hooks thrown over the stern. Even a vessel making over 17 knots is not safe from expert pirates who come along side at high speed and board in seconds. Because vessels focus their attention and look-outs forward for navigation ahead; pirates almost always approach and board from the stern. These can be pretty sophisticated thugs, using radar and global positioning systems to track their prey. Modern pirates have even been known to carry computer generated cargo manifests which have been obtained in advance for later use during machine gun enforced "shopping sprees." Modern High Seas Piracy (http://www.cargolaw.com/presentations_pirates.html#type_attacks)

Apparently armed crews are out of the question given international convention. Instead, crews rely on flare guns, horns and evasive maneuvering. Fire hoses are also used, but in the time it takes to charge the hoses the pirates are already on board.

henry crun
15th Nov 2008, 06:57
Thank you Matari, that has answered my questions.

There is obviously an opening for someone to provide suitably qualified armed guards on night shifts in selected waters, and to hell with the international convention.

The cost of this service would be peanuts compared with what the owners are paying in ransom.

Low Flier
15th Nov 2008, 09:55
No need for gung-ho nutters with guns (or for the Royal Navy, for that matter;)).

There's a much better and more effective way of repelling boarders. It's called LRAD.

It's a very high powered steerable loudspeaker which belts out a tightly focussed beam of sound energy at up to 151bB. It's a flat panel affair, about a metre in diameter and it works in a way which is slightly comparable to a phased array radar transducer.

You need, at most, two of the things, mounted somewhere suitable such as the bridge wings or the Port and Starboard quarter to give a wide 'arc of fire'.

You can select the transmitted power, for example to transmit a verbal warning, and then crank up the power to cause physical pain. At max power it causes serious and permanent damage to human ears.

Upscale cruise liners nowadays are fitted with these things for voyages through high risk areas and they have already proved their worth.

chuks
15th Nov 2008, 10:01
Remember the bad old days of aircraft hijackings, when the merry men (and one very fit looking bint)of assorted fringe groups would grab planes for jaunts to Cuba and various sandy patches of desert?

There was even an incident where a drunk jumped off a subway (Underground to you Brits) kiosk onto the back of a New York City policeman to shout, "Take me to Havana!" He didn't get very far with that but at least he showed he was in touch with the "Zeitgeist".

Hardly anyone got dead from this so that it was allowed to just take its course until, as always, someone just went Too Far and the party was declared officially over! Today hijackings are fortunately rare.

Piracy is now a growth industry and looks likely to continue to grow until the developed nations finally rouse themselves to do something effective about it. I think it will probably be a matter of turning poachers into gamekeepers, paying a certain amount to those dwelling along the shoreline to become some sort of semi-piratical coast guards on the understanding that causing anything more than a certain amount of minor bother will bring serious repercussions, perhaps an accident with a Predator. Couple that with ships having some private-initiative version of marines aboard and that should do the trick.

It's always so that the response lags behind the problem, when we are just at the stage of beginning to understand that there is a problem, "most people".

One of my sisters was conned into sinking her capital into a small sailing yacht which she, her then husband and her teen-age daughter were going to sail around the world. Preparations consisted of sailing around Chesapeake Bay and reading "The Big Book of Sailboats" plus doing lots of shopping for kit. I was speaking to my sister about this, trying to hint that this might be an unsound idea, when she told me not to worry, that she had got her radio licence and that they had bought an HF radio so that help was just a call away!

I told her that, well, if she got to Nigeria then she wouldn't need to call the authorities for help, that they would be the very ones swarming over the lee rail to rob, loot and rape. In their off-time, of course. What a funny man I am, always making with the jokes! Cue tinkling laughter from her and a fond farewell. I guess there was nothing much in that book of hers about pirates; they were something from the past, out of "Treasure Island".

Whenever I read about these yachties being surprised by pirates I think of her.

Brian Abraham
15th Nov 2008, 10:21
Wonder what Sir Francis Drake would make of it all - piracy that is.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
15th Nov 2008, 10:56
A red patch of driftwood and fish food, probably.

MD11Engineer
16th Nov 2008, 23:42
Now we have a new angle;

Off the coast of Somalia: 'We're not pirates. These are our waters, not theirs' - Africa, World - The Independent

Quote:
To foreign ships, they're a scourge but Daniel Howden and Abdinasir Mohamed Guled discover that Somalia's pirates see things very differently

Since when do Somali waters reach all the way to the coast of Yemen or 300NM into the indian Ocean?

con-pilot
16th Nov 2008, 23:49
Since when do Somali waters reach all the way to the coast of Yemen or 300NM into the indian Ocean?

As long as the rest of the world lets them think that.


(And before anybody jumps me, when I said the world, I include the US.)

Rollingthunder
16th Nov 2008, 23:58
"EYL Pirate Ransom Zone
Eyl, Somalia is a main pirate port base in the Somalia region of Puntland. Area of ship ransom for ships seized in Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean near the Horn of Africa. When a pirated vessel arrives near Eyl, the pirates contact the base here by VHF marine radio. Pirates based in this town provide re-supply for food, weapons, and personnel reinforcements. The largest source of income in Eyl is ransom money and the pirates control the town."

Want to remove a problem.....remove the base. (Reapeat as necessary)

If anywhere deserved a couple of cruise missiles, this is the place. Far better than some pharmacutical factory in the Sudan. And we're waiting...why?

con-pilot
17th Nov 2008, 00:34
If anywhere deserved a couple of cruise missiles, this is the place. Far better than some pharmacutical factory in the Sudan. And we're waiting...why?

Better yet, just put in place an Assault Carrier Task Force off the port city, the ones that have the Harriers, attack/transport helicopters and Marines. Then anytime a pirate vessel leaves port and goes past the three mile limit, sink it. What are they going to do about it, complain to the UN? The same UN that has passed a resolution to stop the piracy.

As you posted Rollingthunder, "And we're waiting...why?"

pigboat
17th Nov 2008, 02:10
Didn't the UN issue a resolution condemning the piracy? I mean, if that didn't stop them in their tracks, what will? :confused:

con-pilot
17th Nov 2008, 03:32
Didn't the UN issue a resolution condemning the piracy? I mean, if that didn't stop them in their tracks, what will?

An Assault Carrier Task Force. :p

Or, you and me in a couple of fully armed B-26s. :ok:

(The ones that have the nose gun modifications. ;))

West Coast
17th Nov 2008, 05:38
Con
Which would have more flight time, you or the B26?

AMF
17th Nov 2008, 08:12
Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt must be rolling over in their graves at modern ineptitude. This whole "Somali Pirate" thing could be solved with a squadron of WW2-era PT boats to sink what they can and hot pursuit for the rest, and one IOWA-class battleship steaming up and down the coast razing every port and hole they see these sea-roaches scurry in or out of.

Or put a bounty on them, issue Letters of Marque, and let privateers do the work, just like the good old days.

Solid Rust Twotter
17th Nov 2008, 18:07
A dozen OV-10s with a bladder in the back for extended loiter capability, hang a load of Zunis and a M240D on each and send them out to look for trouble with a Spectre as backup.

con-pilot
17th Nov 2008, 18:10
Con
Which would have more flight time, you or the B26?

Probably me. :(


(I did fly a DC-3 that had a lot less total time than I did, it was older, but had less time on the airframe. However, I have to admit that it was the lowest time DC-3 flying in the world, probably still is. When we bought it in 1980 it had less than 3,000 hours total time, it had belonged to the Wriggly family since 1946, they used it their primary corporate aircraft for the first ten years or so and then based it on Santa Catalina Island until the late 70s.)

Now, how's this for thread drift? :p

Shoot, while I'm drifting, here is a picture of said DC-3.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/con-pilot/12-26-2007_016.jpg

con-pilot
17th Nov 2008, 19:28
Well, they got another one, a super tanker this time.

Somali pirates seize supertanker loaded with crude

By BARBARA SURK – 50 minutes ago
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Somali pirates hijacked a supertanker hundreds of miles off the Horn of Africa, seizing the Saudi-owned ship loaded with crude and its 25-member crew, the U.S. Navy said Monday.
It appeared to be the largest ship ever seized by pirates.
After the brazen hijacking, the pirates on Monday sailed the Sirius Star to a Somali port that has become a haven for bandits and the ships they have seized, a Navy spokesman said.
The hijacking was among the most brazen in a surge in attacks this year by ransom-hungry Somali pirates. Attacks off the Somali coast have increased more than 75 percent this year, and even the world's largest vessels are vulnerable.
The Sirius Star, commissioned in March and owned by the Saudi oil company Aramco, is 1,080 feet long — about the length of an aircraft carrier — making it one of the largest ships to sail the seas. It can carry about 2 million barrels of oil.
Lt. Nathan Christensen, a spokesman for the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, said the pirates hijacked the ship on Saturday about 450 nautical miles off the coast of Kenya — the farthest out to sea Somali pirates have struck.
By expanding their range, Somali pirates are "certainly a threat to many more vessels," Christensen said. He said the pirates on the Sirius Star were "nearing an anchorage point" at the Somali port town of Eylon Monday.
Somali pirates have seized at least six several ships off the Horn of Africa in the past week, but the hijacking of a supertanker marked a dramatic escalation.
The pirates are trained fighters, often dressed in military fatigues, using speedboats equipped with satellite phones and GPS equipment. They are typically armed with automatic weapons, anti-tank rockets launchers and various types of grenades.
With most attacks ending with million-dollar payouts, piracy is considered the most lucrative work in Somalia. Pirates rarely hurt their hostages, instead holding out for a huge payday.
The strategy works well: A report last month by a London-based think tank said pirates have raked in up to $30 million in ransoms this year alone.
In Somalia, pirates are better-funded, better-organized and better-armed than one might imagine in a country that has been in tatters for nearly two decades.
They do occasionally get nabbed, however. Earlier this year, French commandos used night vision goggles and helicopters in operations that killed or captured several pirates, who are now standing trial in Paris. A stepped-up international presence of warships recently also appears to have deterred several attacks.
The Sirius Star was sailing under a Liberian flag. The 25-member crew includes citizens of Croatia, Britain, the Philippines, Poland and Saudi Arabia. A British Foreign Office spokesman said there were at least two British nationals on board.
An operator with Aramco said there was no one available at the company to comment after business hours. Calls went unanswered at Vela International, the Dubai-based marine company that operated the ship for Aramco.
Classed as a Very Large Crude Carrier, the Sirius Star is 318,000 dead weight tons.
Raja Kiwan, a Dubai-based analyst with PFC Energy, said the hijacking raises "some serious questions" about what is needed to secure such ships on the open seas.
"It's not easy to take over a ship" as massive as oil tankers, which typically have armed guards on board, he said.
But pirates have gone after oil tankers before.
In October, a Spanish military patrol plane thwarted pirates trying to hijack an oil tanker by buzzing them three times and dropping smoke canisters.
On April 21, pirates fired rocket-propelled grenades at a Japanese oil tanker, leaving a hole that allowed several hundred gallons of fuel to leak out, raising fears for the environment.
In September, three pirates in a speed boat fired machine guns at an Iranian crude oil carrier, though the ship escaped after a 30-minute chase.
Warships from the more than a dozen nations as well as NATO forces have focused their anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden, increasing their military presence in recent months.
But Saturday's hijacking occurred much farther south, highlighting weaknesses in the international response.
Graeme Gibbon Brooks, managing director of British company Dryad Maritime Intelligence Service Ltd, said the increased international presence trying to prevent attacks is simply not enough.
"The coalition has suppressed a number of attacks ... but there will never be enough warships," he said, describing an area that covers 2.5 million square miles.
He also speculated that the crew of the Sirius Star may have had a false sense of security because they were so far out to sea.
He said the coalition warships will have to be "one step ahead of the pirates. The difficulty here is that the ship was beyond the area where the coalition were currently acting."
Associated Press Writer Katharine Houreld in Nairobi, Kenya, contributed to this report.

"said the pirates hijacked the ship on Saturday about 450 nautical miles off the coast of Kenya — the farthest out to sea Somali pirates have struck."

450 miles, shoot, they'll be just off Portsmouth before you know it.

AMF
17th Nov 2008, 20:21
Somali pirates are "certainly a threat to many more vessels," Christensen said. He said the pirates on the Sirius Star were "nearing an anchorage point" at the Somali port town of Eylon Monday.

So the moment the ransom has been paid and the hostages released, someone blow it up in their port, denying them it's use and befouling a hundred miles of coastline. After pictures of oil-soaked African commorants, tortoises, and whatnot hit the Internet, the Greenies and Tree-huggers will wail, gnash their teeth, and immediately make their way from California and Boston to Somalia to engage in planet-saving and "Voila!"....hostages that literally walk their hemp-sandaled feet into the waiting, RPG-holding arms of Pirates who no longer have to take to the sea and bother people who work for a living. The rich parents who stupidly thought their kids were getting a good education and maybe laid at the private colleges they pay tuition for will learn the error of their ways as they write out million-dollar ransom checks for their wayward snot-nose offpring who should have gone to Florida or Europe for Spring Break instead.

The kids that survive will bring back a few lessons from the cultural experience to ponder...like it's better to be someone holding a gun rather than having lots and lots of them pointed at you by qat-chewing outlaws, and hemp won't save the World.

con-pilot
17th Nov 2008, 21:12
Well, this will not help out matters much.

Danish navy releases 10 Somali pirates - Lloydslist.com (http://www.lloydslist.com/ll/news/danish-navy-releases-10-somali-pirates/20017574257.htm)

Matari
17th Nov 2008, 22:44
C-P:

I just had to highlight this snippet from the link you posted:

"It (the release of the pirates..edited) was the lesser of two evils, for the other solution, which would have made me uneasy, would have been to hand them over to a regime where they risked being tortured and killed," Defence Minister Soeren Gade told Danish television."So, drop the pirates on the beach unharmed, so they can resume torturing and killing others. The logic boggles the mind.

Wiley
18th Nov 2008, 00:52
450 miles off the coast and an Aramco supertanker? Could the lads from Eylon have just crossed that magic line in the sand and committed a (the) "Sept 11th 2001" error?

Are we talking big enough money now that, a bit like hijackers post-Sept 2001, they simply can't be ignored?

CityofFlight
18th Nov 2008, 01:00
Wiley, since this was reported this morning, I've been thinking exactly what you just posted. Whatever the outcome from those on the other side of the sandy line, I hope it doesn't include an oil spill. :ooh: :uhoh:

Solid Rust Twotter
18th Nov 2008, 05:06
...I hope it doesn't include an oil spill.

More like a greasy smear on the bulkheads if the navy gets it right.

Pinky the pilot
18th Nov 2008, 05:29
Perhaps it is time for the 'authorities' to realise that the 'softly softly' approach to these pirates just does'nt work and maybe they should do something like this;

I remember reading somewhere many years ago where in a somewhat unstable part of the world a gang of criminals persisted in kidnapping for ransom non diplomatic staff from various embassies and consulates. The procedure was generally to pay up and the staffer was released.

However one day the crims kidnapped someone from the Soviet Embassy!:uhoh: The story went that when someone appeared to pick up the ransom money a group of KGB men pounced.:eek:

Eventually after an 'interrogation,' the location of the kidnapped person was discovered and the hostage rescued. And the KGB sent back the crim to his mates, only his head that is! In a small box. Apparently the torso fed the fishes in the local harbour.

The story finished with a short note that there were no further kidnappings in that city.:hmm:

Anyone remember the above story and care to comment?

Low Flier
18th Nov 2008, 07:04
Yup, the Royal Navy certainly put a stop to Somali piracy, didn't they!

Good ole gunboat diplomacy. Works every time. Just shoot a few 'pour encourager les autres'.

Oh? It didn't work? Well well. Imagine my surprise!!

Within a week of the great naval victory, which was hoped to teach Johnny Foreigner a thing or two about who is the master race, somehow it backfired and now we've gone and lost a three hundred thousand tonner. Oops!:ouch:

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
18th Nov 2008, 11:07
The Guy Gibson’s doggy in the wood-pile being;



"It was the lesser of two evils, for the other solution, which would have made me uneasy, would have been to hand them over to a regime where they risked being tortured and killed,"


Had the Danes taken them back to a civilised Danish slammer to mend their ways, the Danish tax payer would have had the privilege of funding it. More importantly, though, they would probably have been stuck with the buggers because of the possibility of their mistreatment on return to S**tsville Somalia. The probable result would then be the lawless scum being awarded several points elevation up the food chain. Either way, the bloody pirates win.

While the link still works; I think this woman speaks a lot of sense;

BBC - Today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7734000/7734969.stm)

Low Flier
18th Nov 2008, 11:24
The IMO is hopelessly behind the curve on the matter of piracy. Several decades behind its aeronautical equivalent.

For at least 20 years we've had a general convention in civil aviation that a hijacked airliner which lands and demands refuelling is not to be allowed to leave. It's an imperfect agreement which isn't always strictly adhered to (remember the Afghan 727?), but it's a good 'un.

In the 1970s the British Cabinet agreed a contingency plan whereby any kidnapping/ransom demand would be refused. No substantive negotiations, no deals, no ransom to be offered or paid. The first public demonstration of how effective the simple plan can be was the Balcomb Street seige, in which a group of IRA nutters holed up with hostages and demanded free pratique. They were told quite simply that there were going nowhere but straight to jail. No discussion, no wiggle room. Just a mention of the fact that if they did not come out shirtless and with their hands held high then a 22 SAS Sabre Squadron would be sent in to sort them out.

Here's what the IMO should do. Convene an emergency meeting of representatives from all member states. Agenda: a resolution that no ransom demands will be be negotiated, offered, or paid in cases of ship hijacking or crew abduction.

It is the payment of ransoms which is generating this particular spate of piracy in the Somali case. The Royal Navy has ably demonstrated that slaughtering people may cheer up the drongos who love the prospect of slaughter of non-whites by whites, but actually does nothing to deal with the problem of ships being hijacked off the Horn of Africa for ransom.

This latest case is an ideal time to start setting the precedent. Aramco should simply be informed that if they pay a dime to the pirates of Sirius Star then no Aramco ship will be accepted in any port in any IMO member state. Then inform the pirates aboard the ship that within 72 hours, if they do not leave quietly and civilly, the special forces of a third party state will invoke the rights of hot pursuit and will take military action which will surely result in any surviving pirates being sent to Dhahran prison for disposal within the customs of Saudi justice.

Captain Speedbird
18th Nov 2008, 12:26
It will be interesting to see which nation will be tasked with the job. The captors life expectancy can be measured in days. :=

MD11Engineer
18th Nov 2008, 12:53
According to this week's print edition of the German news magazine "Der Spiegel", the German government are making fools out of themselves again in this matter:
Due to constitutional restraints, the German military are not allowed to carry out law enforcement duties. They argue that the anti-pirate mission off Somalia'scoast would be a law enforcement mission and not a war and carrying out these orders would make them punishable according to our constitution.
Now this problem could be easily solved by posting a few officers and enlisted men of the federal police on board of the warships and in Djibouti, to make sure that arrests are handled in accordance with the relevant laws. Basically they would make the arrests and the military would only assist them (the federal police anti terror unit GSG9 actually has a company of troops trained in boarding ships, so they could be used there).
But the department of the interior, to which the federal police is subordinate, is afraid of arresting pirates. If arrested, there is a high chance that they would be aquitted by a German court of law due to lack of evidence. Afterwards (and even if they got convicted, but have served their sentence), the German government would not be able to deport them, since Somalia is a civil war country, where human rights cannot be guaranteed.
Also, Germany couldn't deport them Somalia, if they are wanted by the Somali government, since Somalia still has capital punishment.
The German department of the interior is worried that there suddenly might be a lot of fake pirates just hoping to be arrested to get a ticket to Europe.
Due to this they refuse to sent the cops to the warships and without the cops, the navy refuses to operate, because then they would be illegal.

Blacksheep
18th Nov 2008, 13:32
If the offence was committed on a Saudi registered ship in international waters, Saudi Arabia would have jurisdiction, not Somalia. Unfortunately, the ship seems to have Liberian registration and the question is, what does Liberia want to do about it? Not much one suspects. Perhaps its time ship owners started registering their vessels in countries like France, who take their flag seriously.

...and who owns the oil?

Low Flier
18th Nov 2008, 13:54
who owns the oil?

Depends on the wording of the contract of sale. In this case it is almost certainly the property of Aramco, through its wholly-owned subsidiary Velas, until it passes through the terminal meter at the destination port (Houston?).

More to the point, who owns the ship? Aramco, through Velas.

Who employs the crew? Aramco, through Velas.

Of whom is the ransom being demanded? Aramco, through Velas.

Aramco is key here. It is Aramco who must be persuaded not to perpetuate these acts of piracy by rewarding them with millions of dollars in ransom.

Effluent Man
18th Nov 2008, 15:04
And there is a self interest argument here too.If Aramco coughs you can guarantee that they will be at the top of the target list as someone who is known to pay up.

Matari
18th Nov 2008, 19:53
Another one taken today:

Hong Kong freighter loaded with wheat, operated by Iranian outfit and bound for Iran:

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94HENVO0&show_article=1)

CityofFlight
18th Nov 2008, 20:07
I have no knowledge of the exteriors of these massive vessels, so I'm struggling to understand just how these thugs board a moving ship when they're in these small boats that are a fraction of the size. :confused: I've yet to read the sequence of events that lead to hijacking/over taking of crew.

Anyone able to shed a little light?

Rollingthunder
18th Nov 2008, 20:09
HUNTERS EVERYWHERE

A moritorium has been declared on hunting moose,elk,bears,geese,lions,tigers,whales and all animal type mammals.

Privateer Hunting Expeditions.com

Join us off the coast of Somalia (sometimes far off) to hunt pirates. Our modern fleet of refurbished MTB's are armed to the teeth with 50cals and all the automatic weapons and ammo you can carry. Fuel for two days cruising and the latest in radar technology.

http://www.iai.co.il/ramta/SUPERDIIIM.jpg

Re-supply is from two mother ships patrolling the perimeters of the hunt areas. 5 star dining is of course provided as well as packed lunches.

http://www.warship.org/images/PT_Boats_and_tender.jpg

Stop Piracy

Any boat capable of more than 12 knots coming out of Somali ports is fair game.

All this and more for $2,000 USD per day. Air transfers and first class hotel accomodation included.

Show various navies how to do it.

Contact Mr. Quint at
Privateer Hunting Expeditions.com

Matari
18th Nov 2008, 20:18
City of Flight:

My post #115 above explains a bit, but you might try to wade through the link I provided there for some more information.

Bottom line, these pirates are experienced and ruthless, and exploit unprotected vessels and the confusion of international flags of convenience.

CityofFlight
18th Nov 2008, 20:30
Thanks, Matari. I missed your post.

Gainesy
19th Nov 2008, 10:58
BZ to the Indian Navy, they sank one of the mother ships.:ok:

Storminnorm
19th Nov 2008, 11:10
Well done the Indian Navy is all I can say! :ok:

Captain Stable
19th Nov 2008, 11:56
I seem to recall that, back in the '60s or '70s the Spanish government was totally unable to control the flow of smuggled tobacco coming into the country. The Spanish courts then permitted payment of bounty to people catching smugglers and their boats and therefore equipped themselves with MTBs and had a remarkable effect on the level of smuggling.

Trouble is, the issue is not simple - the locals see the pirates as protecting them from foreign illegal trawler fishermen (who have suffered considerably at the hands of the pirates) and therefore the locals consider the pirates heroes.

Also, since there is no effective government, who would pay the bounty?

I would love to buy myself an MTB, crew it with a few former marines and gurkhas and do a little patrolling...

parabellum
19th Nov 2008, 12:52
Is there any international maritime law that prohibits merchant ships from equipping themselves with some appropriate and sophisticated armament that will lock on to the pirate vessels and blow them out of the water?

tony draper
19th Nov 2008, 13:02
In my day most British merchant ships carried a revolver in the Captains safe ,more to be used agin crew member going berserk and such, as did happen on occasion.
We had a Navy who dealt with other problems in those days.
:)

Captain Speedbird
19th Nov 2008, 13:05
There may be issues with HE rolling around the deck, but how about a big sod-off l***r? Sodom and Gomorrah!

MD11Engineer
19th Nov 2008, 13:25
Is there any international maritime law that prohibits merchant ships from equipping themselves with some appropriate and sophisticated armament that will lock on to the pirate vessels and blow them out of the water?

Theoretically you can carry the armament of a battleship as long as you stay in international waters and your own government permits it.
But most countries don't like armed foreigners to enter their territory. So, as soon as you enter siomebody else's territorial waters, you'll have to secure the weaponry, e.g. by locking the weapons away in asealed customs locker (or, in some countries, e.g. Singapore, you'll have to hand them over to the local police for safekeeping while being in their territory).
Now most pirate attacks happen in coastal waters or narrow shipping channels, where the commercial ships have to go slow (Somalia is an exception, the lawlessness allows the pirates to operate far away from their traditional hunting grounds). So your weapons will be safely locked away when you need them most.
Also most countries will object to civilian ships carrying heavier military style weaponry, like .50 cal MGs, Oerlikon 20mm cannon or Bofors 40 mm cannon, no matter how usefull these might be for close-in defense.

Concerning Somalia, to have peace in this region, the international naval contingent will also have to stop foreign trawlers from poaching in Somali waters. This has happened big time after Barre's government was overthrown, with the following anarchy. There was no coast guard or fishery patrol, so the foreign trawlers overfished the Somali waters (this includes ships from the EU, e.g. Spain as well as ships from East Asia, like Japan and Korea), driving the local fishermen into poverty.
Some fishermen took the law in their own hands and started attacking the foreign fishing vessels. They soon found out that the ransom money paid by the shipowners was more than they could earn fishing, so an indudtry of piracy took off. Sooner or later the local warlords (read organised crime) muscled in and turned the ad-hoc piracy carrierd out by a few fishermen operating from the coast and armed with a few AK-47s into a flourishing, fully organised industry.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
19th Nov 2008, 13:58
From Truth Central, yesterday (except it wasn't there when I looked yesterday):


Eight suspected pirates apprehended by crew members from Royal Navy frigate HMS Cumberland off Africa's east coast last week have been handed over to the custody of the Kenyan Police today, Tuesday 18 November 2008.



Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Suspected pirates caught by the Royal Navy handed over to Kenya (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/SuspectedPiratesCaughtByTheRoyalNavyHandedOverToKenya.htm)

Clearly, Kenya's human rights record must be considered good. I'm sure they will look after their errant brethren admirably.

Storminnorm
19th Nov 2008, 14:01
It's all very well presenting the historical view that it
all started off with a few fishermen trying to protect
their own interests, but lets face the fact that the lot
that are carrying out the present acts are doing so out
of pure greed, and are armed with weapons that can
make a real big hole in most ships.

MD11Engineer
19th Nov 2008, 15:10
From Truth Central, yesterday (except it wasn't there when I looked yesterday):

Quote:
Eight suspected pirates apprehended by crew members from Royal Navy frigate HMS Cumberland off Africa's east coast last week have been handed over to the custody of the Kenyan Police today, Tuesday 18 November 2008.

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Suspected pirates caught by the Royal Navy handed over to Kenya

Clearly, Kenya's human rights record must be considered good. I'm sure they will look after their errant brethren admirably.

Especially since the pirates have started operating in Kenyan waters...

airship
19th Nov 2008, 15:37
I've a mate ;) who works for Luthan Risk International (ficticious name), a sub-contractor to various insurance companies that cover this type of risk. Here are Terry Thorne's (ficticious name) observations:

The Problem:

1) Somalia is a "failed-state" with no coherent government, or visible means of establishing law & order on dry land, let alone at sea (whether or not in her 200nm economic zone).

2) Somali pirates operate with complete impunity from their land-bases. Their only allegiances being to individual warlords, corrupt politicians and support from local communities that benefit.

3) Modern, largely passive ship identification and tracking systems such as AIS and LRIT allow the pirates every opportunity to identify, select and thus target their victims without drawing immediate attention to themselves.

4) The area in which Somalia-based terrorists operate is huge. The number of vessels patrolling these waters by foreign navies is inadequate and an unjustifiable use of very expensive assets that were never designed or funded for these purposes.

5) At present, the total value (US$30-40m) of ransoms purportedly paid to "free" vessels, their cargoes and crews from Somali pirates represents a small fraction of the total amount that insurance companies charge in additional premiums to shipowners and operators for coverage in these waters.

One solution:

1) Identify the most important Somalia-based piracy organisations (this is already largely known btw). These are indeed organisations, as opposed to small groups of independent fishermen turned pirates.

2) Constitute a working group of the largest users of the sea-area (shipowners & operators) affected. Open negotiations with the main Somalia-based pirates. Assure them a similar income (US$30-40m) in exchange for the unmolested passage of all vessels in future. Equip those who cooperate, with the means to control other groups operating out of Somalia.

3) This initial group of the largest users of the sea-area (shipowners & operators) affected could then offer defacto insurance coverage services to everyone else at a reasonable premium (compared to the small fortunes currently being charged by established insurers laughing all the way through their sub-prime messes)...

4) Foreign navies could then basically go home, make more official visits to foreign ports, their crew in resplendent whites etc., or like the Australians, offer their sailors a Xmas at home (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7734770.stm) for a change...?!

5) Ideally, in addition to the US$30-40m that will go directly to the Somali warlords, it would be nice to see another matching contribution going towards a secure Western-based "Somalia sovereign wealth fund", for if or when, Somalia ever stops being a failed-state. Just that lots of foreign fishing vessels already take huge advantage of Somalia's offshore economic zone, paying the necessary protection money...

6) Stop using the war on terrorism as an excuse for every short-coming....

7) After much deep reflection, I would have slept with Meg Ryan given a renewed opportunity. And bugger the professional inetiquette and consequences :ok:

West Coast
20th Nov 2008, 04:19
Con
I remember that DC3 well. It was kept in the hanger behind what is now the GA terminal on the island. Beautiful machine.

galaxy flyer
20th Nov 2008, 04:48
MD11Engineer

And that Der Speigel article points out what happens when governments and the lawyers confuse "warfare" with "law enforcement". Pirates were settled in the old days, by military force, "walk the plank" stuff and it won't be settled any other way now. We'll probably just get used to it, under the present philosophy.

GF

Low Flier
20th Nov 2008, 05:28
5) Ideally, in addition to the US$30-40m that will go directly to the Somali warlords, it would be nice to see another matching contribution going towards a secure Western-based "Somalia sovereign wealth fund", for if or when, Somalia ever stops being a failed-state. Just that lots of foreign fishing vessels already take huge advantage of Somalia's offshore economic zone, paying the necessary protection money...


It worked for the Falklands!

Solid Rust Twotter
5th Dec 2008, 16:16
Somali pirates want ransom paid in pieces of eight

MOGADISHU. Somalia's pirates have announced that from now on ransoms need to be paid in pieces of eight or Spanish doubloons and delivered by a monkey in a bolero dragging the money in a sack. Meanwhile shipping companies say negotiations with the pirates are becoming increasingly time-consuming as the pirates' only response to ultimatums is "Arrrrhhh!"

The new demands were made at daybreak this morning by a Somali official who claims to be the Pirate King, although the US and Indian navy officials who received the demands said that the official did not look like a Pirate King as he had both his legs and the parrot on his shoulder appeared to be a rat with feathers glued to it.

They said he was also wearing only a grass skirt and a tiara reportedly stolen from a Chinese socialite.

According to the officials the Pirate King used the opportunity to say "Arrrhhh!" repeatedly, however in a break with tradition he also said, "Well shiver me timbers!"

They conceded that attempts to follow the Pirate King to his pirate lair had failed.

"Our main concern is for the hostages, who have been forced to watch pirate revelries, listen to pirate songs, and watch the pirates count their pirate booty," said Admiral Deepak Chopra of the Indian Navy.

However, he said, they had lost sight of the Pirate King's galleon after "sailing into a dense and otherworldly fog, in which we could see nothing but the cutlasses at our sides and hear naught but a distant laughter, as if a madman were luring us towards the very gates of Hell."

Meanwhile shipping companies have urged the Indian Navy to "move away from a romantic narrative approach to fighting piracy and towards using ballistic firearms".

According to a spokesman for Swedish shipping giant Smegma, providing future ransoms in antiquated Spanish coins was going to be far less difficult than handling delivery-monkeys.

"We stopped using monkeys to deliver ransoms to pirates decades ago for one simple reason: they're incredibly unreliable with money," said spokesman Jurg Gotterdammerung, alluding to the 1957 Suez Incident when a monkey named Mr Bojangles ran off with a suitcase containing $9 million in doubloons and spent it all on a small packet of nuts.

However Gotterdammerung said that the safety of the hostages was paramount, and if the pirates wanted a monkey to deliver the money, they would get a monkey.

"It's possible we can develop some sort of monkey-delivery system," he said. "Perhaps stapling the monkey to the money-sack and firing them both at the pirates from some sort of high-pressure air-hose."

Meanwhile Somali tourism officials say that piracy is hurting the region as a tourist destination.

"The graph was looking fantastic," said tour operator Ahmed Ahmed Al-Ahmed. "In the 1980s we had four foreign visitors. In the 1990s we had six, and since 2000 we had had seven."

But he said bookings had now slowed from one per year to "just a trickle".

Storminnorm
5th Dec 2008, 16:21
Where Ehe Effin 'ell Are The Falkands?

Sorry Low Flier.

Low Flier
5th Dec 2008, 17:38
1) Somalia is a "failed-state" with no coherent government, or visible means of establishing law & order on dry land, let alone at sea (whether or not in her 200nm economic zone).

It had been a failed state and then a proper system of governance was established, with the crucial (no pun intended) aspect that it established a working and honest judicial system. They even got on top of the piracy problem.

A documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4139134285433724955) was made at the time (2006), but no US network dared air it.

Big problem for the judiciary was that the Christian fundamentalists of the neocon nutters in Warshington detested the idea of anyone using Islamic principles to bring peace and/or justice to a subjugate nation which refused to bend the knee to the Christian fundamentalist loonies of the Bush administration. Warshington backed a Christian invasion by Ethiopian troops to overthrow the Somali government of Somalia and return power to the money-driven warlords.

The result was oh so predictable. The US-backed warlords in Somalia take the American viewpoint that greed is good; and the result is plain for everyone to see.

Brian Abraham
6th Dec 2008, 01:58
From Stranded pirates saved but their future is sunk | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24757328-2703,00.html)

A Danish anti-piracy warship has rescued seven suspected pirates whose boat broke down in the Gulf of Aden and sank their heavily armed vessel.

Danish soldiers seized several anti-tank rockets and AK-47 assault rifles from the pirate ship, whose engine had failed 90 nautical miles from Yemen, a reporter aboard the Absalon navy ship said. The pirates, who said they had been adrift at sea for eight days, were fed by the Danish navy and placed on zodiac inflatable boats with Danish navy divers alongside the Absalon. They will be handed to Yemen's coast guard.

Meanwhile risk consultancy International Security Solutions Ltd has sold the world's first piracy insurance policy, covering potential ransom payouts on kidnapped crew.

Kidnap and ransom insurance is well-established but has traditionally been offered only for individuals working in commercially sensitive positions or people whose fame or wealth may attract interest from criminals.

The policy provides maximum cover of $US3 million ($4.7 million) per insured event. Between 12.5 per cent and 25 per cent of the premium is returnable if no claim is made. ISSL founding director John Wick said his company would also provide risk-management advice, train crews and provide "target hardening" of a vessel. This generally involves the installation of an anti-pirate "long-range acoustic device", which fires a blast of sound at would-be attackers.

Mr Wick said in the event of the ship being damaged "the policy, if it pays out, will also cover the fees of any public relations advisers in the event of the shipowner being criticised for any damage done to the environment".

AMF
6th Dec 2008, 15:17
Low Flier Quote:
1) Somalia is a "failed-state" with no coherent government, or visible means of establishing law & order on dry land, let alone at sea (whether or not in her 200nm economic zone).

It had been a failed state and then a proper system of governance was established, with the crucial (no pun intended) aspect that it established a working and honest judicial system. They even got on top of the piracy problem.



Big problem for the judiciary was that the Christian fundamentalists of the neocon nutters in Warshington detested the idea of anyone using Islamic principles to bring peace and/or justice to a subjugate nation which refused to bend the knee to the Christian fundamentalist loonies of the Bush administration. Warshington backed a Christian invasion by Ethiopian troops to overthrow the Somali government of Somalia and return power to the money-driven warlords.

The result was oh so predictable. The US-backed warlords in Somalia take the American viewpoint that greed is good; and the result is plain for everyone to see.

Of course, got it, another "It's America's fault" connection. Neocons created Somali pirates :rolleyes:

This part is the best....

A documentary was made at the time (2006), but no US network dared air it.

Dared? :yuk: Hardly, since it's not like this documentary illuminated anything earthshattering or new, or that Ethiopia gets into shooting scuffles with it's Islamic neighbours. It's been doing it for oh.....centuries. Just another Brit-on-safari exclaiming things in a manner to create the illusion of reporting groundbreaking news. The crews probably went there to research stories they had read in the New York Times.

ZEEBEE
7th Dec 2008, 04:50
With the way the current price of oil is dropping, the ship and its contents will become a liability and the Somalians will have to pay to return it to owners who will be happy to be rid of it.

viktor inox
10th Dec 2008, 12:48
Interesting to note that the German government has refused to escort MS Columbus, a cruise liner owned by Hapag-Lloyd of Hamburg, through the troubled waters between Aden and Somalia. They instructed the shipping line to request protection from the navy of the country they registered their ship with: the Bahamas.

Let's see whether European tax payers are being expected to fund protection of ships owned by European lines who, however, would prefer to skip the higher registration costs and register under flags of convenience, such as Panama, Liberia, etc.

Metro man
21st Dec 2008, 06:16
FOXNews.com - China Dispatching Ships to Battle Somali Pirates - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,469205,00.html)



BEIJING — One day after a Chinese cargo ship's crew used Molotov cocktails and water hoses to fight off an attempted pirate hijacking off the coast of Somalia, the Chinese navy announced it would send warships to the Gulf of Aden in their first major mission outside the Pacific.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said Beijing welcomed stronger international cooperation in countering piracy, which has become a major problem in the waters off the Somali coast.

"We are making preparations and arrangements to deploy naval ships to the Gulf of Aden for escorting operations," Liu said, without elaborating on details of the mission.

Click here for photos.

The Global Times, a newspaper published by the Communist Party, said the fleet could consist of two cruisers and one large supply ship.

A U.N. resolution unveiled Tuesday outlines a framework whereby nations whose ships have been attacked can pursue them by land and via Somali airspace if they first talk to the transitional Somali authorities.

A U.S. State Department official said the U.S. has no problem with China "deploying its assets."

"China, like a number of other countries, has decided that we as an international community must act," the official said.

For the Chinese navy, which has mainly concentrated on the country's coastal defense, it would mark the first time it has been involved in multilateral operations in modern times, said Christian LeMiere, a senior analyst for Jane's Country Risk, a security intelligence group.

Participating in the patrols allows China to use its naval power in a way that is not threatening to other countries, he said. At the same time, the military muscle "shows China is willing and able to protect its economic interests overseas."

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Maj. Stewart Upton said the U.S. welcomed China's move. "We look forward to working with the Chinese both bilaterally and multilaterally on this challenge to international security," he said.

China's warships would join ships from the U.S., Denmark, Italy, Russia and other countries in patrolling the Gulf of Aden, which is one of the world's busiest waterways and has become infested with heavily armed Somali pirates.

Spurred by widespread poverty in their homeland, the pirates have hijacked more than 40 vessels off their country's coastline this year — many in the gulf. Many of the vessels are taken to pirate-controlled regions in Somalia, where they are held for ransom.

China's participation comes after an unanimous U.N. Security Council vote this week to authorize nations to conduct land and air attacks on the increasingly audacious pirates in the Gulf of Aden.

Yet another bold attack came early Wednesday when nine pirates armed with rocket launchers and machine guns overtook the Chinese-owned Zhenhua 4 ship, its captain Peng Weiyuan was quoted as saying during an interview with state broadcaster China Central Television.

"They climbed to our ship and tried to get to the area where the crew members were staying.... We had 30 crew members and we were fully prepared and well trained," he said. "We took away the ladders which used to lead to the platform to stop the pirates and we used Molotov cocktails and a high-pressure water pipe to stop them."

After retreating to their cabins and locking the doors, the pirates tried but failed to shoot them open, Peng said.

A distress call to the International Maritime Bureau brought two attack helicopters and a warship from the Malaysian navy about 90 minutes later, and the bandits quickly abandoned ship, leaving the crew unharmed, he said.

But the attack highlighted the ongoing risks for ships in the important trade route of the Gulf of Aden, which lies between Somalia and Yemen and is on the route to the Suez Canal, the quickest route from Asia to Europe and the Americas.

Liu, the government spokesman, said 300 ships were attacked by pirates last year in that area, citing data from the Kenya-based East Africa Seafarers Assistance Program. More than 40 ships were hijacked in the first 11 months of this year.

"Piracy has become an international enemy, posing great threat to international navigation, trade and security," Liu said.

From January to November, 1,265 Chinese ships have passed through the area — an average of three to four vessels a day, he said. About 20 percent of them have come under attack, Liu said.

This year, there have been seven cases of pirate hijackings involving Chinese ships or crews, he said, including Wednesday's attack.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.


Best news possible for this situation. The Chinese won't be too concerned about the pirates human rights, getting sued by them, or having them claim assylum in China.

They will be able to do what's necessary to deal with the problem as they haven't even heard of political correctness yet. :E

Dushan
21st Dec 2008, 07:48
Here is one approach:

A Russian Solution To The Somali Pirates (http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2008122022546.asp)

Crosshair
3rd Jan 2009, 21:00
I see the French have caught another bunch of pirates (http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnJOE50103B.html) off of Somalia.

And in the process saved the good ship Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_ship_venus). No kidding.

S'land
3rd Jan 2009, 23:01
But was the First Mate's name Carter?

Matari
10th Jan 2009, 04:14
Here's a novel way to deliver ransom money to a hijacked ship:

Pictured: The moment a $3million ransom was parachuted to Somali pirates | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1110585/Pictured-The-moment-3million-ransom-parachuted-Somali-pirates.html)

Best part about it is when the pirates started fighting amongst themselves, and five drowned...

joehunt
10th Jan 2009, 05:07
Well a ransom has been paid to the Somali scum who hijacked a Saudi tanker. They say it was 1 million $ us. I will lay a wager, that it was more than that.

Rather than discourage hijacking of their tankers I hope it is only Saudi tankers that are targeted from now on. Well it seems it pays off, does it not?

Who says crime doesn't pay?

arcniz
10th Jan 2009, 06:35
Give it a year. Then count the number of "pirates" with holes in 'em.

BlueWolf
10th Jan 2009, 06:44
Local media (TV3 News, NZ, 1800 zulu) reported that eight of said pirates drowned when their craft capsized on the way back to shore, having collected their share of the ransom.

Poetic justice?

Low Flier
10th Jan 2009, 10:45
The principal beneficiaries of this $3M drop are, of course, the insurers.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c105/The_Forester/SiriusRansom.jpg

tony draper
10th Jan 2009, 11:21
A light dusting of Polonium of those bank notes would work wonders.:E

Low Flier
10th Jan 2009, 12:01
The wake from a Type 42 doing 30kts works wonders (http://www.teletext.co.uk/news/national/9b5e9e59635b91180b99efefdff19cd7/Pirates+drown+with+ransom.aspx) too!:ouch:

Wiley
10th Jan 2009, 12:47
Maybe these lads are sophisticated enough to stage their deaths so they can enjoy their ill-gotten gains unhindered by Interplod in a locale a bit more user friendly than Somalia?

Storminnorm
10th Jan 2009, 17:06
Low Flier, Is that a photo of the money being parachuted to
the pirates on the Sirius Star?
Wouldn't they take a cheque?

Ten West
10th Jan 2009, 19:23
Subject: "Your PayPal receipt"
This emails confirms that you, "InsurerMug" have made a payment of :$3,000,000 to "SomaliBadBoy1" :*

ROE and 'Civil Rights' be buggered. If they're caught they should be summarily executed and dropped over the side for the fish. Simple as that.

Lon More
10th Jan 2009, 19:38
Miss out the summary execution bit and just drop them over the dide, at night and a couple of hundred miles from land.

Scrubbed
11th Jan 2009, 05:39
reported that eight of said pirates drowned when their craft capsized on the way back to shore, having collected their share of the ransom.


Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of c***s.

scum who hijacked a Saudi tanker.....hope it is only Saudi tankers that are targeted

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of c***s.


Happy days all around.

Pirate Daud Nure said a boat with eight people on board overturned in a storm after dozens of pirates left the Sirius Star...

Of course you can believe anything a pirate tells you. These arrrrrresholes are no doubt living it up in Londonistan by now with their homies.

G-CPTN
21st May 2009, 22:06
Reports that some of the suspects were enjoying their stay in Dutch prison cells and were considering eventually claiming asylum, were met with disdain by the country's foreign minister who was quoted as saying he would prefer it if they were being tried in Kenya under UN auspices.
Much more at:- BBC NEWS | Africa | Pirates in the dock (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8059345.stm)

G-CPTN
9th Nov 2009, 16:22
Somali pirates have attacked an oil tanker some 1,000 nautical miles (1,850km) off the coast,
More at:- BBC NEWS | Africa | Mid-ocean pirate attack on tanker (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8350850.stm)

birrddog
9th Nov 2009, 16:33
I guess when you seem them sailing up the Thames*?




* insert name of local river here

Blacksheep
10th Nov 2009, 13:39
There are fools who would have us believe that these rogues are simple impoverished fishermen who have turned to piracy because their fishing grounds were emptied of fish by foreign trawlers. They're not. They're pirate scum, organized criminal gangs operating in teams from mother ships, hundreds of miles outside Somalian waters.

British East Indiamen were armed and carried company soldiers to discourage piracy. Any pirates they caught were dangled by their necks from the yard arms as a warning display. It is now time to return to the olden days.

IcePaq
10th Nov 2009, 14:36
Regardless of where the pirates go to attack ships, they have a place they call home on land.

Drop leaflets explaining why and when the village they live in is about to be leveled and then level a few.

con-pilot
10th Nov 2009, 19:02
Drop leaflets explaining why and when the village they live in is about to be leveled and then level a few.

That is the only way to end this piracy will stop. However, it still must be taken into consideration, the pirates have not killed anyone, yet. Well at least that I know of, I do believe that the captain on one ship did have a heart attack and died.

I do believe that it is just a matter of time until the pirates do start executing hostages. When that happens, then the current policy must change and the UN needs to go after them using whatever force is necessary. A couple of missions by B-52s should handle the problem.

larssnowpharter
10th Nov 2009, 19:07
A couple of missions by B-52s should handle the problem.

Simplistic.

con-pilot
10th Nov 2009, 19:31
Simplistic.

True, but my point is, that until the pirates start killing hostages, as pirates did in the days of yore, we should not indiscriminately bomb all of the fishing villages from whence the pirates are suspected to come from and that offer safe harbor.

I have also just heard that the pirates are now using some areas of the Seychelles Islands as launching points. Now that changes the game somewhat.

My personal believe is that we need to keep doing what we have been doing, except we need to at least double the International Naval forces that are in the area.

Until the pirates start killing hostages, then the rules must change. Thus my remark about B-52s, which would not be used anyway, it will end up with boots on the ground. Which of course will result in another mess.

G-CPTN
10th Nov 2009, 19:40
and, no doubt, the loss of lives of 'our' forces . . .

larssnowpharter
10th Nov 2009, 19:42
Con,

Go back in history a bit. The Romans had a problem with pirates. They gave the job of sorting it all out to a very able guy called Pompey.

He resolved the issue. He had powers to go inland. He got in on the ground and got dirty. He also resolved and resettled some of the bad guys.

Took about a year as I recall.

No B52s.

con-pilot
10th Nov 2009, 19:44
That as well. However, the alternative is?

larssnowpharter
10th Nov 2009, 19:54
B52s will destroy a fair bit of real estate. Point taken.

My advice:

Go in on the ground. Land marines. Take out the bases. Destroy the scroats. Track down their banking systems, make illegal the paying of insurance money to the barstewards, hang a few from the yard arm if need be, make life so friggin miserable for them that they never want to go to sea again. No prisoners.

Then give them an alternative: some kind of enforceable treaty on fishing grounds. Gotta give the buggers a way out.

I believe there is some precedence for all this in international law.

In the end the only way any kind of 'victory' will be achieved is if we - the so called 'civilized world' - make it non-profitable to these people. Currently we are feeding their business.

tailstrikecharles
10th Nov 2009, 20:04
And I dont mean sending some child molesters adrift in the vicinity (appealing as that may be)

tony draper
10th Nov 2009, 20:26
These creatures know fine well the developed world is bound hand and foot with feckwit human rights laws and political correct fluffiness and cant really do much,as I understand it the RN are forbidden to even take aboard any they capture lest they claim political asylum,which I have no doubt would be granted.
:suspect:

galaxy flyer
10th Nov 2009, 22:50
lars

Just because the Romans didn't have B-52s doesn't mean we can't use them. The North Vietnamese were quite impressed with B-52s, once they went "downtown". So impressed, once they ran out of SAM-2s, they asked for a peace conference. I predict the same outcome in Somalian ports, if employed. I liked the story in Afghanistan where some Taliban were given 'til 8 am to surrender, the crew used a contrail to create "8" at the appointed hour and bombing commenced. Surrender ensued. If you have ever seen an "Arc Light", I understand it is most impressive.

GF

PS Too bad, we reneged on the deal to support the RVN.

Dushan
10th Nov 2009, 23:50
When that happens, then the current policy must change and the UN needs to go after them using whatever force is necessary. A couple of missions by B-52s should handle the problem.

I think the UN will draft a very strongly worded letter, as for B-52s, they better not be under UN's command. If they are, better park them here:

http://www.thepepper.com/tucson_airplane_graveyard_pic.jpg

Pinky the pilot
11th Nov 2009, 02:56
the pirates do start executing hostages

I think you mean murdering hostages, not executing, don't you Con?
Execution is what should happen to the pirates.

Agree with the B52 idea.:ok:

Blacksheep
11th Nov 2009, 09:41
The modern day "Pompey" method...

1. Q-Ships: There are plenty of merchant vessels lying idle at the moment, that would make good candidates for conversion. These would make piracy more hazardous and less attractive. The policy must be one of "Take no prisoners".
2. UAVs: Remote monitoring to follow them home and identify their home base then threaten them. This is the equivalent of the legendary two men who say "Now, we're not going to hurt each other, are we?"
3. B52s: If they harm a single hair on the head of a hostage.
4. Financial benefit: Provide alternative life style for those who give up piracy and come over to our side.

Julius Caesar was taken hostage by Greek pirates in his early years, while on his way to take up a position as Magister in the Greek province of Rome. They asked for 25 thales ransom. He told them he was worth more than that and they should ask for fifty, which they did. While waiting for release he provided food and entertainment and laughed and joked with his captors. The ransom was paid and he was duly released. Later, when the pirates were captured and brought before him for judgement he had no qualms about executing them. He was after all, a Roman - give no quarter and take no prisoners, except as slaves.

Gainesy
11th Nov 2009, 11:53
If somone gave me Thales, I'd feel a bit peeved too.:)

Blacksheep
11th Nov 2009, 13:37
Thales is the root word for dollar. Out east there are folk that still work in tahils of gold. They can give me as much as they like.

pigboat
11th Nov 2009, 14:02
I think the UN will draft a very strongly worded letter...

Dushan I like General Rick Hillier's assessment of the UN. "Militarily, the UN couldn't organize a one man race to a shithouse." :D

G-CPTN
5th Feb 2010, 14:01
BBC News - Danish troops 'storm ship captured by Somali pirates' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8500611.stm)

frostbite
5th Feb 2010, 15:40
"Cdr Harbour"

I love it when these sort of names turn up. Sergeant Sargent etc......

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 15:58
Seems simple to me....if you get boarded....you got guns but no fishing gear....shame on you! Sink the Rats right there....and machine gun swimmers. Then move on to the next vessel.....until you start finding only fishing gear and no guns.

When did we ever grant quarter to Pirates?

If one takes out the benefit and rises the risk level to an unacceptable level....problem solved.

Do we really care about killing Pirates?

Who is hiring Quad Fifty gunners?

If the local authorities support/ignore the Pirates....shame on them too. Ban them to either three or twelve miles out....no guns....or be considered Pirates themselves.

Do not tell me we do not have the resources to end this Piracy business.....we have a lack of Will by our national leaders.

G-CPTN
5th Feb 2010, 16:16
A Captain who successfully rebuffed an attack by dropping 'timbers' into the path of the pirates' boat gave an interview on the Beeb.
BBC News - British captain's Somali pirate nightmare (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8465770.stm)
He admitted that, had the pirate boat foundered, he would have been required to offer rescue.

It seems it's the law of the Sea . . .

SASless
5th Feb 2010, 16:47
Masters are not allowed to endanger their vessels.....and rescuing armed pirates would be exactly that in my view. Providing floatation in the form of life rafts, giving food, water and signaling devices would meet the requirement of giving aid and assistance.....while calling up the nearest Warship to effect the actual rescue would be fair dinkum as well.

Perhaps poltical sanctions against Somalia are in order.....and now the Seychelles.


From the UN Article regarding Maritimie Law


Duty to render assistance

1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:

(a) to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of being lost;

(b) to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in distress, if informed of their need of assistance, in so far as such action may reasonably be expected of him;

(c) after a collision, to render assistance to the other ship, its crew and its passengers and, where possible, to inform the other ship of the name of his own ship, its port of registry and the nearest port at which it will call.

2. Every coastal State shall promote the establishment, operation and maintenance of an adequate and effective search and rescue service regarding safety on and over the sea and, where circumstances so require, by way of mutual regional arrangements cooperate with neighbouring States for this purpose.



Article100

Duty to cooperate in the repression of piracy

All States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State.


Article101

Definition of piracy

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).




Article103

Definition of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft is considered a pirate ship or aircraft if it is intended by the persons in dominant control to be used for the purpose of committing one of the acts referred to in article 101. The same applies if the ship or aircraft has been used to commit any such act, so long as it remains under the control of the persons guilty of that act.


Article104

Retention or loss of the nationality of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft may retain its nationality although it has become a pirate ship or aircraft. The retention or loss of nationality is determined by the law of the State from which such nationality was derived.


Article105

Seizure of a pirate ship or aircraft

On the high seas, or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State, every State may seize a pirate ship or aircraft, or a ship or aircraft taken by piracy and under the control of pirates, and arrest the persons and seize the property on board. The courts of the State which carried out the seizure may decide upon the penalties to be imposed, and may also determine the action to be taken with regard to the ships, aircraft or property, subject to the rights of third parties acting in good faith.

Article106

Liability for seizure without adequate grounds

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft for any loss or damage caused by the seizure.


Article107

Ships and aircraft which are entitled to seize on account of piracy

A seizure on account of piracy may be carried out only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.

flying lid
5th Feb 2010, 20:57
Just post one or two of these guys, hidden, on every ship in that area.

Sorted.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_03/41gurkhaDM1704_468x456.jpg

Lid

Tonka Toy
10th Feb 2010, 12:59
SASless, don't know why you are picking on the Seycellois. Pretty as the place is they don't actually have much! Appart from that they are the only ones prepared to put up a fight and take it to the pirates. :mad:

SASless
10th Feb 2010, 13:37
Tonka.....if they are taking it to....andnot taking from the Pirates...then by all means give them as much support as possible. Otherwise, support/condone/ignore Pirates in your country....reap the consequences.

Tonka Toy
25th Feb 2010, 18:25
SASless, the thing is though, that support is a bit scatter gun and poorly orchestrated - for example - SAAB turn up and say we'll do you a great deal, on the this ex demo Maritime Patrol Aircraft at the rock bottom price of 7 million..... - oh I see! - your entire military budget isn't even 7 million? - yes that could be a problem!!!! well, we could sort something!!! - Oh your effectively bankrupt!!! Never mind eh! - See ya!!! Thats sort of how it goes!!! True, you look at the place and there are some who are highly motivated - there are others that need to John wayne the whats it up! - and get with the program, - I'm not neccessarily talking natives of the isles but the very loaded ex pats that live on the islands and take it for granted!!!

Two Beech 350ISR's and two ECR 145s equipped as SAR might help - or some such!!! If we have any gunboats spare - that would help!! They are getting heavy support at the moment from the LUX MPA's and the sweedes are due in town soon but its still only a drop in the ocean!!! And before you think they are just 'Pirates' - think again! The MQ1 reapers that are there aren't neccessarily pugwash spotting despite what they say in magazines!!!:(

Mariner9
4th Mar 2010, 11:02
Mr Justice Steel has pronounced judgement in one of the 1st cases regarding recent piracy in Somalia (and one that one of my colleagues was involved with*). A helpful summary here (http://www.clydeco.com/attachments/published/8827/Shipping%20Insurance%20update_Piracy_March2010.pdf) for those interested. Amongst other things, the judgement established that payment of ransom was legal.


*No, he was not one of the pirates ;)

barry lloyd
6th May 2010, 10:48
Looks like Ivan has pulled off a bit of a coup here:

BBC News - Russia* forces storm oil tanker seized by Somali pirates (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8664011.stm)

*It should have been written as Russian forces, but good English is no longer the preserve of the BBC:rolleyes:

I'm sure the pirates will not be looking forward to doing time in Lefortovo prison, Lefortovo Prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefortovo_Prison), and that's before the show trial.

Metro man
6th May 2010, 23:42
The Russians, and the Chinese don't have to worry about pirates suing them for ill treatment if they're captured. Nor having them claim political asylum and welfare benefits if brought back for trial.

Once a few pirate boats start returning to port with chopped up bodies on board the message will get through.:E

Don't expect to see many Russian ships captured after this.

lomapaseo
7th May 2010, 00:12
Once a few pirate boats start returning to port with chopped up bodies on board the message will get through.

Don't expect to see many Russian ships captured after this.

Do Russian ships operate under different maritime rules in international waters or is it just a case of other countries not wanting to bother the pirates much?

galaxy flyer
7th May 2010, 01:02
Both the Russians and the Chinese are very, very thorough on "taking care" of anyone who crosses them. It is not a legend that the Russians hacked up a few family members of those who held a Russian in Beirut. Get your brother back in pieces with his genitals in his mouth and it'll take the heart out of any kidnappers, pirates or terrorists.

Not saying such brutality cannot backfire, but it is effective.

GF

SASless
7th May 2010, 02:06
As we retire aging UAV's from active service....why not put them to use in anti-piracy operations. Start overflights beginning at known Pirate Ports...follow the buggers to sea....confirm weapons instead of fishing rods on board....and launch off Hell Fire Missiles. Do it at a hundred miles or so offshore and the Pirates have a choice of standing on the boat or jumping overboard and swimming home. Job done!

Only the Pirates can get hurt as RPG's and AK's do not have a valid function in salt water fishing.

Or.....am I missing something here?

birrddog
7th May 2010, 03:12
Only the Pirates can get hurt as RPG's and AK's do not have a valid function in salt water fishing.

Or.....am I missing something here?
You're missing something.

RPG's and AK's are normal tools for humble fishers of men....

unstable load
7th May 2010, 11:56
You're missing something.

RPG's and AK's are normal tools for humble fishers of men....

that, and the hindrance of "the Rule of Law" which we keep stumbling over while trying to counter those who totally disregard it while operating, but count on it's existence if caught.

radeng
7th May 2010, 12:49
Being of a liberal turn of mind, I do criticise the Russian navy for not hanging the ba**ards out of hand.

pour encourage les autres...

Dushan
7th May 2010, 13:39
So the Russians let them go because they didn't know what to do with them after they have served their sentence (should they have been convicted, of course).

I can think of a few things that can be done with them, but must respect ROE on JB:E

BBC News - Russia frees Somali pirates captured in Gulf of Aden (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8667640.stm)

But some countries have been reluctant to do so because of concerns of what to do with the pirates after their jail terms are up.

unstable load
7th May 2010, 14:37
I would hope that the Russians, having demonstrated a willingness and ability to actually pursue and catch the pirates would have freed them with a message to pass onto their comrades, namely "Stay the hell away from Russian flagged vessels, or else".

galaxy flyer
10th May 2010, 02:36
Mikhail Voitenko, an online blogger who has called BS on Russian claims before, thinks the pirates were killed and tossed back in the sea. If they were released as Medvedev claims, why no press coverage? If they had been killed in a confrontation with Russian military there would have been a "heroic struggle".

GF

Deaf
10th May 2010, 05:35
If they were released as Medvedev claims, why no press coverage?

That would mean showing the inflatable boat they were released on - the ducks and fishes printed on the side are a bit of a givaway. The crewman who owned it can always buy a new toy at the next port.

chuks
10th May 2010, 07:04
A Collar for the Monkey is an interesting short story that has a fish salesman as its hero. He tells of his earlier life as a sailor, when he had a pet monkey that made his life hell, a nasty little beast. So one day he took her to the railing, took off her collar and threw her overboard to sink or swim. When asked how he could drown his pet monkey he basically said that that was up to her, what happened next!

Too, remember that Ahnold movie where he holds a bad guy by the ankle before dropping him off a cliff. When asked what became of the bad guy he just replies, "I let him go."

Here perhaps we need to read between the lines when told those pirates were released. Yeah, 200 miles out to sea in a little blow-up toy boat and, "Best of luck now!"

Low Flier
11th May 2010, 20:33
Mikhail Voitenko, an online blogger who has called BS on Russian claims before, thinks the pirates were killed and tossed back in the sea.


Freed Somali pirates 'probably died' - according to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8675978.stm) Russian source

Forces on the Marshal Shaposhnikov freed the captured tanker

Ten suspected Somali pirates captured by the Russian navy last week may have perished after their release, a defence source in Moscow has told reporters.

Marines seized them during a dramatic operation to free a hijacked Russian oil tanker far from shore, killing an 11th suspect in the gun battle.

They were released in an inflatable boat without navigational equipment.

Within an hour, contact was lost with the boat's radio beacon, the defence source said.

"It seems that they all died," the unnamed source was quoted as saying by Russia's Interfax news agency.

11Fan
11th May 2010, 20:46
Rule Number 1. Never board an inflatable boat that is hissing.

rgbrock1
11th May 2010, 20:49
Ya gotta love the way the Russkies deal with people like this. You gotta love it!

fernytickles
11th May 2010, 20:56
Have been listening to the BBC World Svc today whilst packing boxes (we are moving shortly). An eyebrow has raised just every so slightly when hearing the report about this.

"We set them free, minus guns and navigating systems, and watched them for an hour then Pfffff! They just disappeared off the screen. Don't know what happened....."

Uhuh.....

11Fan
11th May 2010, 21:05
Pfffff

Exactly.......


That said, I've got a sinking feeling about this.

BenThere
11th May 2010, 21:26
A three hour tour....

rottenray
12th May 2010, 04:22
BenThere writes:

A three hour tour....:D You owe me a new office chair, and perhaps some carpeting and a keyboard... It's all wet and I'm not sure what is coffee and what is mello yellow.

(non-US folks - Gilligan's Island (http://timstvshowcase.com/gilligan.html))


The sad thing about this is that not all these "pirates" are hardened criminals, although they're on their way to becoming so.

radeng
12th May 2010, 06:15
Lord Palmerston must be turning in his grave!

Tell the RN to shoot first and question afterwards.

Tonka Toy
24th May 2010, 00:31
I think the word you might be looking for is '.......BANG!!!!!......' shame - never mind eh!!!

Personnally I always thought that any civy with an RPG hung over his shoulder had already been down the slippery slope!!!

chuks
26th May 2010, 19:08
The lawyer for some Somali pirates on trial in Denmark is claiming that they were innocent fishermen looking for help when their boat had engine trouble, pointing out that said boat was now on the sea bed so that no one could prove any differently!

The captain of the ship they attacked claims that he was shot at by small arms and RPG fire.

The trial is continuing...

CityofFlight
26th May 2010, 19:28
Chuks, tis something right out of Cheech & Chong...

'Your honor, my client merely found the drugs and was on his way to turn them in to the police, when he was pulled over.'

Neptunus Rex
26th May 2010, 21:35
It's very simple really. No seagulls around the boat, they ain't fishing!

Self Loathing Freight
26th May 2010, 23:39
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/10056-pirates-hmed1130a.h2.jpg

Saunas, massage help in hunt for pirates - Somalia- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37360380/ns/world_news-africa/)

11Fan
27th May 2010, 01:38
I thought the issue was privacy in the Horn of Africa.


:\ er, sorry, never mind. Easy mistake.

SASless
27th May 2010, 04:37
You got to admire the way the Rooskies finished the job with a bang!

A very climatic finish.

In USN language.....Bravo Zulu!

Spadhampton
27th May 2010, 08:09
Why don't we just waylay the buggers when they are retuning from sea with the loot? Couple of fast boats…a decent hide-out. Rob the robbers as it were. Use a small plane for scouting.

CathayBrat
3rd Jun 2010, 12:10
it seems they may be trying to sort ot the problem themselves now
BBC News - Somali troops free pirate-held cargo ship (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10224293.stm)
About bloody time

BombayDuck
6th Sep 2010, 22:15
From an Indian Defence Blog:

On 05 Sept, while on anti-piracy mission in the Gulf of Aden, Indian Navy destroyer INS Delhi successfully neutralised a pirate boat while escorting merchant vessels. INS Delhi deployed in the Gulf of Aden since mid-July 2010 was escorting 12 merchant vessels including Jag Ratan, an Indian Flag merchant vessel. At about 1215h on 05 Sept in a position 180-km north of the Somali Coast, in the International Recommended Transit Corridor, a boat was detected approaching the formation at high speed. INS Delhi immediately and repeatedly called the boat on Mercantile Marine Radio but the boat failed to respond to these calls. Sensing that the boat may pose a risk to ships being escorted, INS Delhi safely maneuvered the formation of merchant ships away and intercepted the boat. A helicopter was launched to provide aerial cover to the merchant vessels and the boat "Bareeda" was successfully intercepted, forced to stop and boarded by a team of Marine Commandos from INS Delhi. On investigation a cache of arms and several fuel drums and ship boarding equipment were found. There were 07 Somali and 01 Yemeni national as part of the crew. The men were disarmed and excess fuel on the boat was disposed off by the boarding team.