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SpringHeeledJack
24th Sep 2008, 13:12
Sorry gents, not about a fail-safe method with the ladies, but with the ferrous kind of magnets, but all the same I had to ask.

With the news that the LHC in Geneva has problems due to magnets being broken/mis-aligned and won't be up and running for 6 months or so, I started wondering.

We have within our bodies an electrical energy that has an electro-magnetic field, as do all living things. Electrical influences have been documented in causing all manner of maladies, not least cancer (though excluding death by electric shock :8) through the strong magnetic fields disturbing the delicate fields of hoomans.

Bearing in mind that the magnets in the LHC are MASSIVE!!!!!, one's question to those who might know, is how do they make, move and install such magnets with such strong magnetic fields without putting lives at risk ? I realise that the LHC magnets are probably induced by electric energy to come to their full potential, but all the same...... Are there shielding techniques employed ?


Regards


SHJ

tony draper
24th Sep 2008, 13:18
Don't think they are Ferrous,they's superconducting cryogenic puppies,falling into a tank of liquid nitrogen or getting splashed by same would prolly sting a bit more than yer magnetism.
:uhoh:

SpringHeeledJack
24th Sep 2008, 13:29
Don't think they are Ferrous,they's superconducting cryogenic puppies

:ooh: How do they work ? Just goes to show how dated my magnetic knowledge is :)


Regards


SHJ

Captain Stable
24th Sep 2008, 13:32
How do they workNot very well right now... ;)

c-bert
24th Sep 2008, 13:33
If you've ever had an MRI scan it's a very similar bit of kit in concept.

SpringHeeledJack
24th Sep 2008, 13:39
If you've ever had an MRI scan it's a very similar bit of kit in concept.

Christ on a bike, instead of wondering about illness from the magnetic fields, if it's as loud as an MRI scanner then the poor scientists will all be mutton in short shrift....


Regards


SHJ

MagnusP
24th Sep 2008, 14:00
Had a quick dig on the CERN website, and got over 4000 hits on "magnets" and "Safety". You may want to start there.

The one part of your post I didn't understand was the sentence including the words "fail" and "ladies". I of course have no concept of this.:E

Bushfiva
24th Sep 2008, 14:00
As Mr Draper says, they're electromagnets. They're not magneticky until they're supercooled then switched on. Incidentally, warming up/cooling down a section under repair takes about 2 months. So if' you've 10 minutes of spannering to do on something, it's going to take 2 months 10 minutes.

The particles that bump into the magnets on the way round generate random secondary particles, so no-one's allowed in the tunnel when the machine is operating; a few minutes' exposure could cause issues.

Captain Stable
24th Sep 2008, 14:07
The one part of your post I didn't understand was the sentence including the words "fail" and "ladies". I of course have no concept of this.You must be a scientist.... :}

MagnusP
24th Sep 2008, 14:19
Cap'n furniture wrote:
You must be a scientist....
I could've phrased it better, I suppose. :uhoh:

Not a bad guess, though. I was a project manager building international telescopes and instrumentation until the research council gave me lots of money to go away and never lighten their skies again.

G-CPTN
24th Sep 2008, 14:29
Why didn't they build the LHC in space where the low temperature would be easier to sustain?
Only need a length of cable to feed the elecktrikery . . .


. . . or, of course, they could build a nuclear power station up there (assuming that they couldn't run it off solar panels that is) . . .

Windy Militant
24th Sep 2008, 14:40
If memory serves the magnets are cooled to a gnats off absolute zero with liquid helium, they use liquid nitrogen as a pre cooler stage. One of the big problems with mega gauss stuff like this is being cut in half by your loose change if you get too close to the magnet. :}

hardhatter
24th Sep 2008, 14:47
By cooling certain metals, they become superconductive, which means they conduct electricity with near to zero resistance. So less power is neccessary ( correct me if I am wrong), OR, you can have more results form the same amount of power, in this case, more magnetic flux, thus more powerful magnets! :8

Bushfiva
24th Sep 2008, 15:02
space where the low temperature

Space isn't cold.

tony draper
24th Sep 2008, 15:12
Wudden like to be floating round up there in me bathing cozzy.:uhoh:

Mr Grimsdale
24th Sep 2008, 15:38
If memory serves the magnets are cooled to a gnats off absolute zero with liquid helium, they use liquid nitrogen as a pre cooler stage. One of the big problems with mega gauss stuff like this is being cut in half by your loose change if you get too close to the magnet. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Indeed and when the magnets failed the temperature increased by 100C or K depending on how much of a scientist you are. This caused the liquid helium to make a dash for it and CERN ended up with a ton of the stuff sloshing about in the tunnel. Apparently they called the fire service, I would have thought Frosty the Snowman would have been more use.

G-CPTN
24th Sep 2008, 15:54
According to:- Re: What is the temperature of space? (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1997-12/880000587.As.r.html)
The coldest temperature that anything can realistically reach is 3 K. This is the temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB). Because the CMB permeates all of space, and can penetrate even dense gas clouds, essentially everything is exposed to it. So, if no other heat sources are present, gas will come into equilibrium with the CMB.
Perhaps CERN should be told . . .

Fitter2
24th Sep 2008, 16:19
But that's the lowest equilibrium temperature. As that white box in you kitchen proves, you can make some parts of the universe colder if you don't mind other parts getting hotter.

After 20 years of research the Low Temperature Lab at the Helsinki University of Technology managed to reach 280 pK or 280 trillionths of a Kelvin. However, in the year 2000 that record was surpassed when a piece of rhodium metal was cooled to 100 pK or 0.000,000,000,1 degrees above absolute zero by a team of physicists at this same lab.

tony draper
24th Sep 2008, 16:37
I thought Absolute Zero is a bit like that Speed of Light thingy, yer just can't quite get there.
Excellent series on the telly about the hunt for absolute Zero a while back.
:)

Jimmy Macintosh
24th Sep 2008, 16:42
The additional radiation causes more problems the more the ring is run. So if they run it again, they start limiting the amount of time allowed down there, so then teams have to start to work short shifts etc. things get a lot worse. Hopefully there won't be many more problems.

I was in the room where the Synchrotron ring is at Rutherford and the geigercounter was emitting a continuous note. Was only allowed down there for 10 minutes, before the ban was on for the rest of the year. I wanted out after about 1 minute. It was shut down for six months before anyone was allowed down there.

ChristiaanJ
24th Sep 2008, 16:46
Apparently they called the fire service, I would have thought Frosty the Snowman would have been more use.IIRC, the trouble started with a short and fire in an electrical transformer, which explains the fire service.

Electrical influences have been documented in causing all manner of maladies, not least cancer through the strong magnetic fields disturbing the delicate fields of hoomans.I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. Nothing has been "documented"... we're talking about unsupported hypotheses based on dodgy statistics.
Electric or magnetic fields have essentially no effect on the human "electronics". As mentioned above, the widespread use of MRI (which uses massive magnetic fields) for things such as prolonged brain scans (as during functional MRI) should be sufficient proof of that.

Electromagnetic radiation CAN cause trouble but not because of "interference with those "delicate human fields"....
Microwave radiation in sufficiently high doses will cook you, literally, because it generates heat. Looking into the primary feed of an operating radar will give you cataracts in your eyes in short notice....That's why there are safety zones around operating radars, for instance. That's also why they advice you not to dry the fur of your cat in the microwave....
And X-rays and gamma rays in sufficient doses will actually ruin the cell structure of your body... which is why they can cause cancer, but also can be used to treat cancer, by aiming them specifically at tumors.

Oh yes, and of course it HAS been proven that mobile/cell phone addle the brain. But the jury is still out on whether that has anything to do with holding a small microwave transmitter close to you brain for too long, or whether the brain of those who yak endlessly on mobile phones are already addled to begin with.

CJ

SpringHeeledJack
24th Sep 2008, 17:31
I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. Nothing has been "documented"... we're talking about unsupported hypotheses based on dodgy statistics.

Woof, woof! :}

How about the 'cancer corridors' in countries where along the path of high tension electricity cables (either over or underground) there are unexplained clusters of cancer far greater than in other areas, and especially amongst children, Leukemia amongst the more prevalent ?

The Russians, I read many years ago had banned all building of habitable accomodation within a certain distance (either 200 or 500m) to said cables since the 1950s due to their negative effect of the massive electro-magnetic fields. I seem to remember that it was a Russian scientist who had pioneered this research. This was pre-internet, so it would need to be corroborated in triplicate :)

Regards


SHJ

Noah Zark.
24th Sep 2008, 21:03
If you've ever had an MRI scan it's a very similar bit of kit in concept.
Does that mean that when it's working (!) everyone can see through each other? :)

G-CPTN
24th Sep 2008, 21:12
Radiation from experiments at a university 100 years ago is suspected of causing a cluster of cancer deaths.
Three academics and an assistant have died after working in the laboratory used by Ernest Rutherford at the start of the 20th century.
The Nobel prizewinner is known to have experimented with radon at the Manchester University facility.
The Health and Safety Executive is overseeing an investigation into whether contamination by the radioactive gas was a factor in the four deaths, the last of which came last week.
The laboratory is also known to have contained quantities of polonium - the substance used to kill Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko in November 2006.
(More at:- Four university workers 'killed by radiation from 100-year-old experiments by nuclear pioneer Ernest Rutherford' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1060295/Four-university-workers-killed-radiation-100-year-old-experiments-nuclear-pioneer-Ernest-Rutherford.html) )

ChristiaanJ
24th Sep 2008, 21:28
.... unexplained clusters of cancer.... Mostly without any proper statistical correlation to other environmental factors. You should know the one about "lies, damn lies, and statistics".

'Radiation' deaths 100 years on . . .
Radiation from experiments at a university 100 years ago is suspected of causing a cluster of cancer deaths.
Three academics and an assistant have died after working in the laboratory used by Ernest Rutherford at the start of the 20th century.I can believe that. IIRC both the Curies died of radiation poisoining, and unless the Rutherford lab was gone over VERY carefully, residues may well have remained.

west lakes
24th Sep 2008, 21:38
How about the 'cancer corridors' in countries where along the path of high tension electricity cables (either over or underground)

Ah that's the one where the last study showed the "clusters" appeared a few hundrend metres from the lines.

The previous ones were purely statistical in that: -

"We are seeing cancers, what might have caused it?"

"Was it power lines?"

"OK lets go with that & prove it"

There has never been any medical proof or medical link established. Though the UK government is taking a precautionary approach regarding new build - just in case

All you need to know here

National Grid EMF - Welcome (http://www.emfs.info/default.asp)

Note that in the links it provides links to citizen & protest groups.
Their sites do not link back to official sites.

ChristiaanJ
24th Sep 2008, 22:06
Thanks, west lakes.
Much what I was saying.
And while the wording of the 'National Grid' link you posted may be somewhat biased in places, it's factually correct.

But with present-day "science" education, it becomes difficult to expect people to understand notions like "electric field", "magnetic field", "electro-magnetic", "radiation", "frequency", and other such abtruse matters.

And of course politicians and journalists are well aware of that.... even if they haven't got a clue either.

CJ

tony draper
24th Sep 2008, 22:22
Once whilst wandering the back lane with me wee hoond one saw something shining in the gutter and being a curious sort of cove of course one picked it up, twer a polished black cube half an inch per side of some very very heavy metal and when one got home and tested its properties by holding it close to a metal part of one fireplace there it stuck with incredable force,so powerfull a magnet it proved to be one had to prize it orf with a screwdriver.:uhoh:
One suspects it had fallen off a passing flying saucer,and the other thing one derived from examining this strange artifact,Aliens being intelligent beings use Imperial measure.
The above is true,one is gazing upon this strange cube as we speak.
And no you can't have it.
:)

ChristiaanJ
24th Sep 2008, 22:55
Oh poor Tony....

't was merely one of those magnets they sell to the credulous to keep accretions out of their water pipes....

No doubt tossed there in your back lane by one sorely deceived....

Ah, the force of "magnetics".... two centuries on, but its force has not diminished....

CJ