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Load Toad
21st Sep 2008, 00:14
Can we have a rule - not just for PPRUNE but something controlled by the UN, The Mounties and by teachers n stuff that if you are commenting on a message board about a tragedy or accident where you have no direct relationship to the people involved you are not allowed to write 'RIP' or 'I hope the injured recover quickly..' or some other such empty sack of sentiment. Can we make an assumption that you do not think ill of the dead, that yes you do empathise with the surviving family and of course you hope the injured recover. That's a humanitarian position that we would expect humans to have.

Of course if you DO NOT (and I can not repeat can not stress this strongly enough) have any sympathetic feelings you could add to the bottom of your post something like 'I hope he burns in hell and as for the one that survived I hope he is maimed / disfigured and the loss of his limb is a hindrance for the rest of his sad worthless life'.

Because it'd be funnier and we'd not have to put up with the RIP posts.

Blues&twos
21st Sep 2008, 00:21
Well, it made me laugh Load Toad!

SpringHeeledJack
21st Sep 2008, 00:31
Amen to that Load Toad, Amen brother!

Regards


SHJ

Roger Sofarover
21st Sep 2008, 02:02
Why are you asking us? We don't make the rules, just pm Danny.

Come to thing of it why not make the rule that unless have a direct link or relationship to any subject on these forums then you are not permitted to comment. Should save 98% of the bandwidth.

arcniz
21st Sep 2008, 02:15
People seek to resolve their own anxieties and fears about life by expressing sympathy for the misfortunes of others. Perhaps this makes you feel uncomfortable, but who put you in charge? Why deprive others of that minor and civilised attempt at release from anxiety over their own mortality?

A possible argument for what you propose it that such expressions of sympathy endlessly restate the obvious and clutter the fora. To address this concern, perhaps a constructive solution is to create a sticky thread specifically for condolences of all sorts. The it would provide a durable and socially allowable vehicle for people to act-out their yearnings to sympathise but everyone would be empowered to point out that it is gauche to do so in places other than the one specified?

Loose rivets
21st Sep 2008, 02:19
No need to e-mail The Management. It was suggested from above years ago to not clutter the system with obvious platitudes.

Is that the right word? Close, I guess.

Platitudes are words or phrases that are drearily commonplace and predictable, that lack power to evoke interest through overuse and repetition. ...


In a strange way, it's a bit like genuflecting.

arcniz
21st Sep 2008, 02:31
In a strange way, it's a bit like genuflecting.

Notice a connection there, eh?

BlueDiamond
21st Sep 2008, 02:38
We don't make the rules, just pm Danny.Danny doesn't make the rules either. Load Toad needs to PM someone at Internet Brands.

So ... the Thought Police have arrived on PPRuNe. Sorry, that should be thinkpol. we have people who correct spelling and grammar who are always telling us how to write our posts and now we have someone wanting to tell us what we should write ... so that he/she can be suitably amused, apparently.

This site isn't here for your own entertainment, mate, it is here for everyone. This means that the broadest possible variety of thinking/writing/attitudes will always be found here. If someone wants to write RIP after a post, they are perfectly free to do so. If it is relevant to the thread, if it is not a hijack or drift attempt and if it is not against the basic "rules of behaviour" then there is no problem. To comment on that as you did, Load Toad, is fine, but to actively seek to control the content of posts which do not contravene any guidelines is a bit over the top.

... if you are commenting on a message board about a tragedy or accident where you have no direct relationship to the people involved ...How on earth would you ever know whether a relationship exists or not? Unless, of course, a poster states that that is the case. Would you ask people to somehow "prove" their right to say RIP?

Wiley
21st Sep 2008, 02:41
Lord Toad, your (commendable) suggestion reminds me of the hairy old dog yarn that's been around since before Pontius got his command, about the member of a club who forwarded a motion to the club's committee that henceforth, the person forwarding a suggestion should NOT automatically be made chairman of the committee formed to institute said suggestion.

The committee thought it was such a good idea that they immediately voted him in as chairman of the committee they would form to see that in future, this should be so.

...I'm afraid your suggestion has about as much chance of success. Maybe to save bandwith, Danny could add a "condolences to the family" and an "RIP" (un)smilies to the list on the right of screen.:):)

Edited to add that I see someone's beaten me to that suggestion - but unless my irony bypass has kicked in, it would seem they were being serious!!!

CYPR
21st Sep 2008, 02:57
You're idea has a lot of common sense arcniz. How can we make it happen?

BlueDiamond
21st Sep 2008, 03:12
How can we make it happen?
Email the suggestion to the appropriate person at Internet Brands and perhaps they will adopt it.

winglit
21st Sep 2008, 03:32
It's a bit like those people who work in the service industry, especially those in USA who tell you to "Have a nice day".

Why?

Maybe I want to have crap day and enjoy it! Sometimes I wake up in bad mood for an unknown reason, but think to myself "Today I'm going to have a grumpy day and bloody well enjoy it!"

The last thing I want is some person in Starbucks handing me my coffee telling me to have a nice day with all the insincerity that they couldn't really give a toss whether my day was good or bad. I feel like saying, "Don't tell ME what kind of day to have!"

arcniz
21st Sep 2008, 04:11
cypr generously says:
You're idea has a lot of common sense arcniz. How can we make it happen?

The walls hereabouts have ears. If the mods and management see a benefit in taking that approach to the recurring issue of condolences and regrets, then it will happen.

Roger Sofarover
21st Sep 2008, 04:13
God knows how many people blown up yesterday, war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan, the closest yet to the return of the cold war, the globe facing financial melt down,.........it doesn't really matter does it:hmm: RIP

Load Toad
21st Sep 2008, 04:33
I don't want to be in charge - I have no desire to be in charge of anything - I clearly stated that The Mounties or teachers or such should police this rule should it become a big universal law.

I do have the view that it should be taken for granted that when something bad happens to other people that the default setting for all normal human beings is 'sympathy / condolences / a yearning to help / I'm glad it wasn't me / there but for the grace of supernatural super being goes I etc'

Therefore 'RIP' / 'I hope the injured recover quickly..' / 'Is his wife bearing up..?' is totally superfluous. Well - maybe not in the last case but you get the drift.

But if you don't have natural, humanitarian feelings then by all means - give the dead and injured and saddened both barrels and add insult to injury.

As an example - say Paul Francis Gadd fell off a motor scooter and grazed his legs badly I'd post a message such as:

'Oh - I do hope he gets vinegar on the wound and it'd be terrible if it got infected and had to be amputated'.

Loose rivets
21st Sep 2008, 04:52
Despite appreciating the posts of a particular fellow Ppruner over a long period, sometimes you have to stick to your guns.

I DO NOT like to have meaningless condolences bandied about while we're talking about serious accidents etc.. It's our duty to study such catastrophes while practicing professional pilots / engineers etc., our feelings are totally irrelevant, and should be b:mad:y obvious. We don't like to see people suffer, but we don't need to tell everyone this obvious fact every time something untoward happens.

Accident investigation is a science, pure reasoning coupled with a little lateral thinking is all we need on the thread.

EDIT: I've just re read this, and it sound totally pompous. However, it is what I think...so what can I do?

I know, I'll end by saying Wibble. :\

EDIT me edit. One has had a tad too much vino. Huh, that's a change. So having writ me EDIT, I leaned forward to admire my work, my elbow missed, and I hit me head on the desk. Teach me to take meself seriously. :ouch:

Brian Abraham
21st Sep 2008, 06:22
You're on the horns of a dilemma LT, think that's the saying. You can please some of the people all the time, you can even please all the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time. In another thread (military) a poster complained about the postings of sympathy whenever some one died. I made such a posting when a chap with whom I used to work passed away at a young age due cancer, and lo and behold, his widow (whom I had never met) contacted me some time later extending her heart felt thanks for the sentiments expressed. While some get their knickers in a knot over some issues, other find solace. But I do know from whence you come. On the other hand, its like reading the paper or watching TV, if you don't like it, don't read or watch it.

CityofFlight
21st Sep 2008, 07:02
Mr Toad, who died and made you Lord?

I take issue with anyone presuming what should and shouldn't be said to someone else. It's really none of your business, if someone reaches out to another to offer support or says RIP, is it?


In the spirit of your recommendations, I hope you take your Load and go hop off somewhere else!

Have a lovely day! :E :p;)

M.Mouse
21st Sep 2008, 08:30
Why deprive others of that minor and civilised attempt at release from anxiety over their own mortality?

Because that is not what the pointless, clichéd and overused statements are.

The clichés are predominantly used by the same ignorant chavs who feel a need to place flowers at the side of the road where some unfortunate met their end. They are the same people who make a post and then end with 'Let's be careful out there'. Oh really? I had better abandon my careless approach to life, thank you for reminding me.

Clichés of any kind serve to irritate and are the preserve of the ignorant who are unable to understand that their use illustrates a lack originality of thought, actually makes them appear ignorant and detracts from the impact (if any) of their post.

I suppose it is all of our fault for giving access to modern communications meaning that the terminally stupid can irritate us all not just their mates in the pub.

They are probably the same people who have 'Baby on board' signs in their cars. A sign that started with true purpose but has now become meaningless due to its adoption by all and sundry living where its use is unnecessary. They should really have a sign saying 'An ignorant moron attempts to drive this car'.



Have a nice day; let's be careful out there; RIP; hat, coat, door; watp,iktch; discuss; there but for the grace of God.

BOAC
21st Sep 2008, 08:42
'Scuse me MM, but you missed out
'ATB
M M'

ATB

Boac

Load Toad
21st Sep 2008, 09:19
CityofFlight>
Mr Toad, who died and made you Lord?

I take issue with anyone presuming what should and shouldn't be said to someone else. It's really none of your business, if someone reaches out to another to offer support or says RIP, is it?

You didn't ackshully read what I posted did you - nor notice the forum I posted it in?

BlueDiamond
21st Sep 2008, 09:29
Clichés of any kind serve to irritate and are the preserve of the ignorant who are unable to understand that their use illustrates a lack originality of thought, actually makes them appear ignorant and detracts from the impact (if any) of their post.
Aside from the use of clichés in posts on this forum, M. Mouse, how do you, in real life, manage to express your own sadness (when someone you have known dies), without using words ... clichés ... that have been used countless millions of times before? How does your "originality of thought" stand up to that challenge?

There are many, many times throughout our lives when we have to attend funerals or visit families of people whom we knew well who have died. It must be a problem for you finding something different to say every time - if you can't let yourself use the old and well-worn "I'm sorry to hear about ..." phrase and its variants. Do you feel just a little bit ignorant every time you can't come up with something original? Do you think people feel irritated with your lack of inventiveness? Do you think they find your traditional expressions of condolence "pointless and over-used?" Have you really never used the same words more than once? You will excuse me, I hope, if I find that just a little far-fetched.

Traditional expressions of sympathy ... clichés ... are the only means we may have at our disposal to show a little compassion, concern and kind-heartedness to those dealing with emotional pain. Most people ... most people ... understand very well that there are only so many ways to say, "I'm sorry" and most people would not dream of criticising any lack of originality in the words chosen to communicate that sentiment.

If people choose to express their sympathies to folk they do not know, that is their business. If you feel irritated by that, or by the words they use, you need to find a way to deal with those feelings ... that is your business.

CathayBrat
21st Sep 2008, 09:32
Mr Toad, who died and made you Lord?
We did!!!!:E
For all the flak you seem to be getting Toad, i hope u RIP.
All others, have a nice day, drive carefully and who really gives a f:mad:k.
This is JETBLAST for Toadsake, if you cant take a joke, you shouldn't have joined.
And as it says, i blame the Americans.

Evening Star
21st Sep 2008, 09:46
While agreeing that the whole condolences thing comes across as a bit mawkish, it is a mark of respect (or at least it was when I was being taught about good manners as a child) to append 'RIP' when referring to someone who has recently died. There are enough people on this site who bemoan the decline in manners without making things worse.

2 sheds
21st Sep 2008, 11:21
Nice one, Mouse!

Roger Sofarover
21st Sep 2008, 11:39
M Mouse

The clichés are predominantly used by the same ignorant chavs who feel a need to place flowers at the side of the road where some unfortunate met their end.

I find that very offensive:mad:. Remember your words if a member of your family is mown down at a pedestrian crossing by a drunk driver. Don't go laying any flowers will you!

boris
21st Sep 2008, 11:49
Can't go that way Sofarfetched. Toads family don't walk.

Binoculars
21st Sep 2008, 12:07
Like Roger Sofarover, I fail miserably to see the connection between the original thread and the laying of flowers at a roadside fatality site.

I was with M.Mouse all the way until then, and I've said it before on these pages. I suspect the "Condolences to the family" of someone you've never met is some sort of feelgood mechanism showing how warm hearted the poster is. I find it absurd and attention-seeking, especially when the family is never going to see it.

But that is a long way from the flowers at the roadside. Chavs? I would have assumed that those doing the placement of the flowers were close relatives or friends of the deceased. To take exception to that I find mean-spirited in the extreme. Should we not place flowers on our loved ones' graves either? What in god's name is the difference?

There are three sites in my small town that qualify, and I knew all the people involved. I don't place flowers there myself, but driving past them always serves as a gentle reminder of our mortality, especially when people are taken at a young age, and always gives me pause for thought, and at least a small smile at a good memory involving the deceased. What's chavish about that I can't begin to imagine.

All parents have a fear of outliving their children; it is an unimaginable situation. Should any of my beloved Binoettes ever be taken from me in an accident and somebody tells me I'm a chav or similar for commemorating their young lives, they'd better be able to fight. I can't, but I'll learn very quickly.

Juud
21st Sep 2008, 14:17
Load Toad, I so agree with you.
These expressions are an annoyance on accident threads. They clutter up the flow of already unwieldy threads where the separating of wheat and chaff is a chore even without having to wade through endless meaningless RIPs.
I have often wondered why people feel the need to append them; all I can come up with is that they do not want to be seen as being uncaring in any way.
Your 'assumption of compassion' is IMO spot on!

Distinctly remember instances where R&N Mods got so frustrated with this phenomenon that they started separate RIP threads for the sole purpose of..

Re the side-track of flowers at accident spots; if it gives the bereaved some comfort, or if you knew the person and the laying of flowers gives you comfort, why not?
If your laying of flowers is a mechanism to make you feel connected with world events/celebs then it's not my cup of tea at all, but what harm?

Binoculars
21st Sep 2008, 14:22
And you would never find this little black duck laying flowers at any memorial to a celebrity. I always found the outpouring of grief at, eg, Diana's funeral as laughable.

Family members are another matter, and I think that's what we're talking about here. Well, I am anyway.

Conan The Barber
21st Sep 2008, 14:28
Your family members certainly have my condolences.

Binoculars
21st Sep 2008, 14:35
Becoming quite the master of the one-line thread-ender, aren't you Conan?

Keep it up, please. You'll finish even lower on the Pprune popularity meter than I, and that's a nice thought. Here's a hint: try a post that reflects some original thinking. Just once in a while will do.

Blues&twos
21st Sep 2008, 14:48
I absolutely agree that the bizarre reaction of many thousands of people to the death of Princess Diana was incredible and rather disturbing. Very disturbing, actually.

Conan The Barber
21st Sep 2008, 14:52
Is this a contest? Is verbosity a quality? Is the drone of one's own voice something to love?

winglit
21st Sep 2008, 16:31
I'm with M.Mouse with most of your post, apart from the chav bit.

I don't think it would be chavs lying flowers at the site of a fatality, more like friends and family expressing their grief and showing to others their loss. Maybe the passing public might spare a thought for those that perished.

The chavs are the ones that nick the flowers and give them to their hoodied bird in return for a bunk up in the back of the saxo!

Peter Fanelli
21st Sep 2008, 16:51
They should really have a sign saying 'An ignorant moron attempts to drive this car'.
Such a sign exists, it says "Obama 08"

I'd like to offer my sincere condolences to the families of all past present and future people who fail to live to the extent of their planned natural lives.

There, I'm done with that crap now.

I agree with you Load Toad and Juud

Sheesh. :ugh:

CityofFlight
21st Sep 2008, 17:30
LT... It was in the spirit of your last paragraph (even last sentence) that I responded. Perhaps I should practice the fine art of dagger throwing, using a bit more verbal precision? Nah, I'm not that rude.

I could care less what people write to other people on Pprune. It's not worth letting anyone get under your skin with such benign verbiage.

Intellect and cunning humor? That gets my attention every time! :D:ok:

M.Mouse
21st Sep 2008, 22:14
Don't go laying any flowers will you!

Not a chance.

If I feel the need to publicly display my mourning, which I don't, I will do so at the proper place but then I am old fashioned.

I wonder who the laying of flowers in totally inappropriate and distracting places is really for and what the layer is actually trying to say. I always thought that was what funerals and graveyards/gardens of remembrance were for.

Blue Diamond a good try but if I added the word inappropriate to the use of the word cliché would that help you understand?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
21st Sep 2008, 22:23
I think the placing of flowers by the side of the road should be banned. If you ever looked into it, you'd find that it just causes accidents :=

Loose rivets
21st Sep 2008, 22:34
Lest anyone think me a heartless soul, I'm mindful of a time, a year or two ago, that a grieving mother posted about the loss of her son in a flight training accident.

As some days went by without a single reply, I felt the need do write, on the open forum, to fill what had become a conspicuous void. It wasn't just a duty, it was also a sincere message from a father and grandfather to someone that was suffering the ultimate emotional pain.

I took some time to construct an appropriate message, rather than a tired series of platitudes. The gist was of the value of striving for a goal in this difficult world, and the inevitability of losing a few of the brave souls that reach further out along that proverbial limb.

The point is, there are times when even a stranger can say a few words of comfort. There is a point in trying to ameliorate a fellow human's pain. My argument is, if indeed it is an argument -- rather then just an expression of an immediate reaction, that to routinely post these condolences, fails to serve the bereaved, and dilutes the science behind the investigation.

BlueDiamond
21st Sep 2008, 23:51
Blue Diamond a good try but if I added the word inappropriate to the use of the word cliché would that help you understand?It would help me understand that you now wish to subtly change the meaning of what you first wrote.

Which will help you avoid answering my question won't it?

x213a
22nd Sep 2008, 00:01
The point is, there are times when even a stranger can say a few words of comfort.


I think the distinction is whether the platitudes offered are sincere or are just offered in order to conform with 'emotional correctness'.

There is obviously no way of knowing but I refuse to believe that people are affected by grief / sorrow to the extent often expressed on internet fora. Take R&N for example. Their are a few who only pop up when an accident is being discussed. They may as well have "RIP to all concerned" as their signature.

Do people feel they should add the condolence in order to conform? If 1 minute silences were offered as a mark of respect for say the death of Jade Goody would you feel obliged to observe it if you were in a supermarket at the time?

As for roadside memorials...there is a family in Plymouth currently arguing over the right to keep a memorial (that looks like a gravestone) on the side of the road where their son died in a crash in the car he nicked. They conform fully to the chav stereotype.

G-CPTN
22nd Sep 2008, 01:35
What is it about Chavs and their ilk that they spend great sums on funeral arrangements (extravagant floral 'tributes', horse-drawn hearses and expensive headstones)?

Arm out the window
22nd Sep 2008, 04:32
Tribal tradition and custom, mate, something those of us who like to think we're enlightened may believe we're not bound by, but are fooling ourselves.
Over here, for example, and probably where you live as well, the Italian part of the cemetery is like a housing estate for dwarves, with little marble mansions everywhere. Families have to do it for fear of people talking about them behind their back, saying they don't have enough respect for the dead.

winglit
22nd Sep 2008, 05:29
the Italian part of the cemetery is like a housing estate for dwarves, with little marble mansions everywhere.

Now that's funny!

How about this? Come on kids let's go for a day out to LEGOLAND!:}