SO Training - Whats Involved?

[blah blah blah]

Hi all,

Currently sitting on a yes letter and expecting a start sometime in 2009. Starting to make some preparations regarding moving family etc and so after some detail on what the training entails.

Ive tried searches but dont seem to be getting anywhere. Can anyone run me through the whole process for a new hire SO? For eg does day 1 start in Hong Kong or is it straight to Aussie for all the theory to convert my licence? Is it full SO pay from day 1 or is it a training wage? If someone could run me through the process until being checked to line I would appreciate it.

One of the main things I need to figure out is when to ship the family up to Hong Kong, ie should I wait until Im completely finished with the training?

Any help would be great.

Cheers

[marbles1]

Check your PM's

[sizematters]

Just get lots of practice makeing up the beds, your wife will surely let you do this......................

as a "Sheeting Officer" this is your most important duty

enjoy........................

[quadspeed]

To quote a good friend who's an SO on the 744...

It's the most "useless, non-satisfying makes-you-feel-worthless" job he's ever had. After 12 years of flying as an FO and FC for GA, regional and airlines, he's now been systematicly reduced to the one guy on the flight deck who is expected to know, do, and understand absolutely nothing. For the housing, paycheque and 18-days off a month you sell your dignity, self-respect and any professional pride you've ever had.

And just when you think things couldn't get any worse, you're rostered with a DEFO from your home town who's got less hours, less command time, and a lot less knowledge of both the aircraft and the SOPs and you get to sit in the back, make his bunk, sort out his Jepps and watch him screw up the EFIS check and radio calls while you realize that although he's 2 years junior to you, he'll tie up your base-slot and sit on it until he retires... at which time you're still stuck in Hong Kong on your 4th marriage and broke (once) again.

If you take the job, make sure there's something else in your life that gives you meaning and a sense of purpose. Cause this job will not.

I wouldn't go through it again. Especially not with the current outlook being 4 or more years as an SO, considering RA65, DEFO and DEC, 3-man ULH, reduction in capacity as a result of the new economic times and current malicious, rotten delays in SO-assesments conducted by the management in breach of the very intiontion of the CoS they offer you when you join. Don't let anyone tell you anything else... this is not where you want to be going and it's certainly not where you'll feel you belong.

[yokuba]

Congrats on getting the job. Just be sure to stop reading PPRune.

[quadspeed]

During my final interview, PPRuNe was mentioned in connection with my pre-interview preparations. I was asked if I'd read any of the posts regarding CX, and I replied that I'd read them all. I added that I assumed it was written by a very narrow selection of the pilots, most of who were probably angry with the world and would complain no matter where they worked. I honestly believed this, as I had friends already working for CX who informed me things weren't really as bad as you read on PPRuNe. So I disregarded it all, assuming my experience would be completely different.

I was wrong.

[Macgyver]

Im not at CX, so perhaps my opinion may not mean much as I dont know first hand how the day-to-day operations is conducted.

But with regards to all this bitterness, it begs the question- why are you guys still at CX? If its as bad as you say it is, why not quit? There must be something positive about the job otherwise you would not still be there.

I have 2 friends who are at CX and they both enjoy it. They admit the company has its issues and that there is room for improvement. But I think it all depends on where you are coming from and apparently, what fleet you are on. It seems the 777 guys enjoy the job more, while the 747 S/Os have it worse.

Im hoping one day Ill know first hand what the fuss is all about ;)

[A Scaler]

I agree with what the other guys have said. Unless you come from a pretty badly paying job with no security or provident fund, I would take a close look at whats on offer.

The big plus is housing, if you are smart about it you can make alot of money. Usually, that means sacrificing lifestyle to live in a shoebox so you can pay it off quickly, then rent it for the income or sell it.
Another plus is the opportunity to take temp bases - if you can afford to, and also the chance to take a base, IF one ever becomes available in the port of your choice... like others have said though, hard to get with all the DEFO's coming into the system.

The negatives have been listed. They are all true. Time to upgrade is going to take a long time and there are only so many bunks you can make and only so many sandwiches you can eat.

Don't mind my handle, but get used to the real A-Scalers talking about the cost of filling up their choppers, buying houses in the snow and what type of Ferrari they'd like for their London home. They make about as much in a month as you will make in your first year, then they will not offer to buy you a beer on layover.

Get used to guys telling you not to take callouts, while all your mates do, and get an extra 20k a month for it while you do 'the right thing'.

The list goes on, it can be frustrating... apply to EK if you have the hours - you will upgrade to command quicker than it takes an S/O to upgrade to FO. If you can live in HKG, you can live in DXB.

If you dont have the hours for EK, come here and enjoy the S/O roster, the time off is great. Travel as much as possible, take temp bases and have a good laugh when you go to sim and you get a pat on the back for the worst ILS you have ever flown.

[sizematters]

what do we do it for............

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


That would be the mighty $$$$$$$

[blah blah blah]

Thanks to those that sent me a PM. That info was exactly what I was after.

As for all the posts, well, I think some people need a bit of a reality check. For someone like myself making the first step into the major airlines Cathay is still a pretty good option. Im well aware of all the complaints, I know plenty of people working there, some who have left, others that are sticking with it.

The simple reality is that the airline industry is not what it used to be. Airlines in the States are going under with pilots being cast off. Growth elsewhere has slowed markedly, with the resultant drop in pilot recruitment. Job options today are just not that great. To hear people complain then of having to do 3 years as an SO seems a bit naive. That is still a pretty quick upgrade, many other airlines leave guys as SO for up to twice as long.

What I am getting at here is that actually Cathay is still a pretty good deal. It certainly isnt the days of being an A scaler any more, those jobs have long gone, but when you compare the job with a lot of others out there it isnt too bad. No it probably isnt the best, but for me at least there has been no call from Bill Gates to work 1 day a month on his GLex, so until that comes up, Cathay is the way to go.

Thanks again for the PMs.

Cheers

[skywaytoheaven]

From contacts of mine inside CX the guys who went as SO's are about 50/50 split - half hating it, the others finding bearable, ie a means to an end and a good chance for a career break. The only other option is going as an FO on the freighter fleet based at LHR:yuk: with some fairly unexciting flying and a 'hell' of a training department to deal with. This is only what ive been informed of from guys on the inside. So it seems like the only way into Cx these days is to go YOUNG as an SO, unfortunatly if your over 30 (like me) it doesn't look that attractive compared to the alternatives.
By the way BandH are you really a 51 year old SO?

[northeast canuck]

BandH,

He asked what the training was like, not for people's opinions. And he got a bunch of posts telling him how **** the job is. Obviously he made his decision, presumably an informed one, and it isn't helpful to have responses like that.

[northeast canuck]

No, you are not helping at all. If you knew anything about the Canadian airline industry then you would know that Cx is one of the best opportunities available to Canadian pilots.

[blah blah blah]

BandH,

As Canuk says, I was asking about the training, and thanks again for those that sent PMs!

Obviously being outside of Cathay at the moment I cant know all the ins and outs of the company. Luckily however there is a wealth of info available, and so Ive made the best decision that I can from my position of being one of those waiting to get into the airlines.

Now Im sure I will learn a lot about the company once I join, and perhaps a lot of it will not be that great. At the end of the day though, I will at least have a job, I will be getting a reasonable salary and a lot of opportunities that other airlines dont offer. Much better that than sitting in the States trying to get a job competing against a huge number of type rated and experienced pilots. I wouldnt stand a chance, while at Cathay I do.

Thanks again for the replies.

[T-Mass]

rant on:

to those bitter unfulfilled CXers: what is then the airline to work for nowadays? SIA, FedEx, Qantas...what?

there must be an airline that is sans all the crap you must go through at CX. there must be that really really really good airline that everyone else knows about except the misinformed poor souls that join CX.

what? you're saying there's no such thing? that every airline in the world has its sh!t to deal with?

that's what i thought also.

don't like it? change it. can't change it? you change, or you move on. such is business, airline or not.

rant off.


T

[blah blah blah]

You obviously havent tried looking for work recently. Always very nice to be sat in a job and bitch about all the problems, how about you have a look at things from the other side.

As Ive said, nowhere is perfect, but there are a lot worse places to go than Cathay.

[quadspeed]

I think some people need a bit of a reality check. For someone like myself making the first step into the major airlines Cathay

Well, that changes things, doesn't it? If Cathay is only a step in your career path, then by all means jump into it. Get your ratings, cash in on the housing and leave while you're still young.

However, for the rest of us who left profitable airlines or airforce contracts with good seniority, wages and benefits to join the illusion that is a Cathay Career, the picture looks somewhat different. We were presented with two career paths; SO and DEFO freight. We were presented with a retirement age; 55. We were presented with a basing and seniority structure that allowed us to convince our families, friends and children that we wouldn't be in China forever.

If Cathay wants guys that will accept anything as long as it's better than nothing, than so be it. They might even get some guys to fly for free. But the ground is being aroded for the rest of us. Yes, one could always go back and rejoin at the bottom. And repurchase the old house. And once again leave good friends and collegues behind.

[blah blah blah]

BandH,

Dont try and blame me for the woes of the airline industry. By your own words you decided to make the same move as I. By your logic you are just as much to blame.

These attitudes regarding people starting out are ridiculous. What am I supposed to do, sit around, unemployed, refuse a job because people already in that job arent happy with conditions? Perhaps you need to be the one forcing some change so that new hires arent put in this position. Its not the fault of people outside of a company trying to get in, any problems that havent been resolved or that lead to worse condition are the fault of those in the company that havent forced an issue. Remember BandH, its you that are making all the noise about the problems, how about you fix them!

[blah blah blah]

That is exactly what the union is for, so how about you complain to them about your issues, rather than telling me that Im "dragging the professions to new lows" by joining up.
:yuk:

[JLQ]

Blah blah blah

Congrats on the job offer.

Please re-read post no# 5 by quadspeed. This is exactly how it is.

As for other airlines keeping SO's for longer than 4 years, I can only think of one or two other airlines that actually have SO's that are not cadets.
Quite a few of the guys who joined close to me have already left. Many others are looking.

If it's better than you have at the moment then come on over.

As I said, re-read post no# 5 by quadspeed.

[T-Mass]

Maybe it's the ever elusive Australian work permit that makes Land of Oz a bit difficult to invade...

[abc1]

Not anymore.

[T-Mass]

I stand corrected. After quick research, looks like the land down under has indeed opened its doors a bit. Interesting.

[CathayBrat]

Old joke but,
Do you still need a criminal record to get in?
I know pilots bit:mad:h and moan about most things (job, wives, boat loan, skiing holiday plans etc), but i really do enjoy PPRuNe, as it seems no one can moan better than a CX pilot! As people have said, the industry has changed from 'the good old days', so why havent people. Its still a good company, if you are bitter because you are still a S/O, maybe there is a reason you are still a S/O, like the post that said he got a pat on the back for doing the worst ILS he's ever done! Is that something to be proud of? Training capts do know sarcasam!
Get over yourselfs, if you dont like it, vote with your feet and leave, it means more positions open for people who do want to join!

[skywaytoheaven]

Out of interest, I wonder how easy it is to leave as an SO. If you'd been there 2 or 3 years as an SO then what airline will actually employ you with no P2/P1 u/s time for that period. You may have significant hours before that but you're not exactly current are you? I attended an Emirates road show last year and they said that SO hours count for nothing in their eyes.
Having said that over the years I have come across the odd CX SO while at various airline interviews, so maybe some companies don't have a problem with it.

[blah blah blah]

Hi all,

I have had heaps of emails from people in a similar position to myself, ie. sitting on a SO yes letter but waiting for a start date. Here is the info that I received relating to the initial training. If anyone has more detail then please let us know.

Basically the process seems to start with day 1 in Adelaide, Australia. I presume that we fly in to there from wherever we currently live, rather than having to go to Hong Kong first.

Once in Adelaide its a month of studying for the exams to convert your licence to a CAD licence. There are 3 flights in a light twin of some sort ( I think it may be a Duchess), then some time in a 737 sims to get used to Cathay SOPs.

After this its up to Hong Kong to start training proper. CAD exams are sat, 10 max depending on your current licence. I think there is a bit more generic stuff at the start prior to getting into your own type.

Lots of sims then line training and checks. All up about 6 months I believe from the start to being on line.

Looks like there is a $10,000 HKD sign on bonus plus the opportunity to take out an interest free loan of another $10,000 HKD paid back at $1,000 HKD per month. Pay from day 1 is full SO pay, not a training wage.

Advice seems to be that its best to leave the family at home until done with training. Probably going to be easiest to stay in the Headland by myself and once finished training bring the family over.

Please feel free to correct any of this if you have more detail, Im just passing on what I have been told so far.

Cheers

[blah blah blah]

BandH,

If you have something constructive to add then please do. If you are just interested in whinging then how about you start a thread about how crap your life is at Cathay.

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

HI blah........... This job is as good as you make it... If you are keen, you'll be fine. If you've been a loudmouth whiner all yr life then you'll find plenty of things to complain about. But overall, it's quite cruisy. If you want to make bunks you can or want, but if you're on the 744, you MUST. I don't give a hoot if my bunk isn't made by the S/O.
I guess you've worked out all the training info, it'll all seem like a rush at the start, as you get all your exams out of the way, but you'll get the answers to them before you do them so don't stress too much.

Well, have fun then.................

[blah blah blah]

Hi Sleeve,

Thanks for the post, been a while since something sensible has been said!

As you say a job is always going to be what you make of it. I know people flying for a few different airlines and none of them have said that their airline is perfect, Im sure Cathay is the same. However, Cathay looks like a good fit for me, and lots of others going by the interest that there always is to get into Cathay.

Cheers

[blah blah blah]

BandH check PMs, you are on my ignore list so dont bother replying.

[jonathon68]

Your time as an S/O is as enjoyable/valuable as you make it. Or it can be a totally miserable period in your life, if you so wish.

Issues such as being over qualified and under appreciated etc have always been around. However, the hierarchy are now probably much easier to work with, since many guys with 3 or 4 bars were "in your shoes" in the past. But some of them do have very short memories!

I have been disappointed to fly with the occasional S/O who lacks the professionalism to stay motivated. It is shocking also to fly with JFO's who can not even work out descent profiles, despite having spent 3 years on the jumpseat.

I was a very frustrated S/O back in the Kai Tak days. But I learned an important lesson from that time, which is that there is a lot more to life than flying. If I could replay that phase of my life all over, I would spend more of that time traveling and developing "extra curricular activities" etc. Money may be short as an S/O, but once you are an F/O you will usually lack the free time you once took for granted.

I would not bother with any pre-course study, but work hard when you get here.

It is probably best to leave the family at home during ground school and simulator.

All the best for your career

[EngineOut]

blah,

yes, the loan you are offered by CX when you start is interest free.

Jonathon, I have to disagree to some extent. You get extremely rusty sitting in the back seat. It is one thing watching, it is another thing doing it...not that decent profiles are particularly hard. I do however agree with you on the other point; the SO lifestyle is needs to be enjoyed outside of work as it is not unusual to have 20 days off a month...the biggest challenge can be keeping yourself entertained-not a bad problem really.

Unfortunately the ADL thing is a bit of a waste of time and CXs money. I'm not sure why they waste money on it to be honest, once you get to HKG you need to put the work in. For reference, time from starting in ADL to check to line for me was 5 months. Definitely leave the family at home until you finish the sims, after that there is plenty of time.

Enjoy