Grounding of RAAF C130 Fleet

[Old Fella]

Does anyone have any information on the nature of the NLG problem which led to the grounding of the entire RAAF C130 fleet earlier this week? Said to have been a problem not previously encountered with the C130, although I'm not sure fifty years of recorded defects would have been checked prior to this statement having been made by the spokeman.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

HerkyBirds (formerly C130 Hercules HQ) has a thread on it

HerkyBirds.com - Re:RAAF C130's grounded??? - FireBoard (http://herkybirds.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=26&func=view&catid=2&id=3943#3943)

Seems the NLG strut broke internally during some T&Gs at an "austere" field. The thing held together enough to bring them home and didn't fall apart during a "very soft" landing. Don't know the tail #, etc. Waiting to see pictures... Hope to hear more soon...

If it turns out to be cracks or fractures in the area of the bulkhead on the rear face of the nose bay, then it's a known problem.

Well, not a problem - if you stoof it in hard enough, something's got to give!

[Charlie Luncher]

Due to AFL/NRL final season being upon us all the pies had been sold:E.
Villis are working V hard to make more pies for the fleet.:eek:
Charlie sends

[komac2]

this is From the ADF Serials forum (requires login to access)

"Whilst conducting Touch and goes at an a bush strip (suspect Lake Cargelligo) warning occurred on nose wheel, Pan was called. Upon return to YSRI, more warnings arose, a Mayday was called, flight directed to YWLM (Better fire facilities)

RAAF Fire Crews at YWLM when testing their equipment found system faults in the foam spraying devices, the flight was redirected to YSRI.

Landing made, immediate shut-down and crew abandoned. Left on Rwy.

From my sources, a major strut in the nose wheel had completely snapped.

This comes from the a WGCDR, who runs ALG Systems Programs Office (Herc Maintenance)

[Old Fella]

If the strut suffered a fracture it is not the first time. A97-213, in Madang PNG, suffered a complete breakaway of the axle from the base of the strut. The only thing holding it together was the scissor link, which fortunately allowed the NLG to be held in position and, with a very careful lowering of the nose on landing, the broken strut settled on top of the axle with minimal secondary damage being suffered. This occurred in about October 1972 during famine relief operations when we were based in Madang and were flying into Mendi. The pilot was known as , "The Lockheed Legend". Those who knew DS will know whom I mean.

[Dengue_Dude]

. . . apparently Buddhists believe that all pilots are destined to be reincarnated as undercarriage shockstruts.

Can't help thinking - they've got a point. ;)

Glad everyone's safe though!

[Old Fella]

DD. Great post mate, have you been flying around at FL310 unpressurised without O2?

[TheInquisitor]

Certainly not in an E/H/K model, at least with any kind of load and ISA dev greater than -20!

:E

[Old Fella]

The Inquisitor. My reference to Dengue Dude flying around at FL310 without oxy was aimed at his stated location (FL310 Mach .82) on his profile. BTW, have operated at above FL310 with pax (special dispensation) on more than one occasion. Normally limited to FL260 with pax, due no pax oxy available. Very rare to get ISA -20 down this part of the world, more often ISA +20. The C130A with MTOW of 124200lbs would get up about 5-6000' higher to initial cruise than the 'E' . The 'E' was a dog by comparison at it's MTOW of 155000lbs, the 'H' a much better aircraft in my view.

[Old Fella]

From the operating Flight Engineer. The C130H suffered a complete fracture near the bottom of the NLG strut which resulted in the axle and wheels being attached only by the scissor link, as I explained had happened to a C130A on an earlier occasion in 1972. The outcome was almost identical to the earlier incident and little secondary damage occured. The RAAF still have not lost a C130 aircraft in fifty years of operating the type. Not bad by any measure.

[Dengue_Dude]

I was feeling a bit hypoxic . . .

Once flew from Kai Tak to Gan in a C130K (E model with -15 engines) at FL350 however, we were empty!

'Fraid I migrated to jets a long time ago and would never go back, however good the Herk is. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's a young mans' aircraft.

Now taking cover . . .

[Harry Lime]

I think you are/were still a bit hypoxic! The C130K model was an H model replete with -15 engines but with a British Smiths Flt Inst System.

The highest I ever got in one was FL310, and that was on an Air Test c. 1975 when the airframes still only had 5-6000 hours on them.

'Happy Days' from one Oldtimer to another.

[Old Fella]

Many ex-36Sqn RAAF members will recall a certain Captain achieving both the lowest and highest records for a RAAF C130H within a few weeks of each other. If my successors are to be believed this guy had a C130H at FL410 (no payload, mininimum fuel and hanging off the props) and later some considerable depth below the surface when he bogged an aircraft on a bush strip. Some will go to any lengths, or should that be heights or depths, to gain fame.

[ozbiggles]

Komac and Old fella
Were you told these things friend in confidence?
Because if you were you have probably dropped a WGCDR and Flt Eng in the Poo.
By all means tell us the goss but Ronnie likes nothing better than a Spanish inquisition into 'leaks'. It will probably be a bigger investigation than what happened to the nose gear!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

From HerkyBirds.com

The FE has posted the following:-

Ok so now the offical Airforce investigation results are out I can talk about it.

I was the FE on the C130H that snapped the nose strut during a touch and go. and we had a QFI Check Capt in the right seat. It was the second touch and go for the night and as we were powering up past 15,000"lb, we felt a thud as if we hit a fox or Kangaroo(and no it was not a heavy landing)we were past rotate speed so we took it airborne as it was a short outback strip. An inspection of the Strip later by the police showed we did not hit anything.

We left the gear down and I went down to look at the gear through the inspection window. The nose strut was broken off about 6" from the bottom of the chrome. This is a picture you never want to see. The Nose Gear was left dangling only front sissor link and I could see the inside of casting of the front strut as it was tilted back towards me. The gear was just twisting and turning in the breeze.

The hour transit back to home base with the gear down gave us lots of time to work a plan and look at checklists 10,000 feet@160 knots.
We dumped the LOX as there may have been damage to that area anyway on touchdown.

The most suitable Check List to run was the Nose Gear retracted Main Gear Down one, as this gave you some proceedures and guidance on how to fly the approach and what to expect on touchdown. We had planned, or thought that on touchdown, the sissor link would snap and the nose gear break off and we would go down onto the top part of the strut.

If we retracted the gear the broken strut would have caused further damage to the doors and may have jammed later on down selection.

Just to add to the event, on descending into home base the no 1 engine oil cooler flap stuck closed in auto and manual, even tried resetting the CB. We kept the engine running as we really wanted to do a 4 engine touchdown with a broken nose strut,than a 3 engine one. Hey the book says between 100 and 150 deg C they just change the oil, that's a small work load for MX compaired to screwing up the touchdown.

On touchdown God was smiling on us. The mains were on first, the nose slowly holding it at stages,the nose wheels started to spin up and the broken bit of strut rotated FWD into the sissor link. The nose settled some more and the top part of the strut, settled onto the stuck portion of the broken bottom strut. All this on a bulging set of sissor links. We slowly came to a stop, then ground evacuated and yes I did turn the battery off.

End result is a very nose down aircraft but doors still off the ground with no major damage. Crew debrief over a few beers.

Cause .. it appears that it was a manufacturing defect in the strut and it would have happend to someone some day.. I guess that day was tonight and that someone was us.

So next Sim ride, practice that Gear check list, even the unrealistic ones, may one day be real. and dont forget to throw in a curve ball oil cooler flap as well

Chris

That's quite a detailed description of the nose on touchdown. Please tell me there wasn't anyone up the kennel.

[GreenKnight121]

That's quite a detailed description of the nose on touchdown. Please tell me there wasn't anyone up the kennel.

No, I suspect, since the "official Airforce investigation results are out", that that description is based on video of the landing.

After all, " the hour transit back to home base" was plenty of warning to get the crash crew ready, and I am sure someone took care to have one (probably several) cameras going to record it for the BOI (and their own files).

[Old Fella]

Ozbiggles. I cannot speak for Komac, however I most certainly did not get told anything in confidence. I do know the F/E involved, and have done since before he ever became a F/E, but my post was made as a result of a post by the F/E on HerkyBirds.com in which he detailed the event after the official report had been put in the public domain. In fact I have not spoken to Chris for quite a few years. I refer you to the post by SirPeterHardingsLovechild which followed your post.

Mate, I had 23 years with the RAAF so I don't need to be reminded about what may or may not be made public. As for Spanish inquisitions, I always found that being 'up front' negated any need for such enquiries.

[ozbiggles]

Not trying to get into a slanging match here Oldfella and I'm all for an open reporting culture so everyone can learn from somebody else and not have to learn in the heat of battle.
However things 'may' have changed since you did your time (my time was later) and let me tell you the big 'they' in defence do care (rightly or wrongly, and I have found out first hand!) what gets out into the public domain and employ people to watch and report ie civil contracters.
I love the fact the story from the players who were there is available for other aircrew to learn from. My point is I'm not so sure 'they' will, and by their own hands these guys may now get a little heat (wrongly of course, but that won't matter).
And it would have to be the fastest ever turnaround for a RAAF investigation!
I'm off to herkybirds, sounds like a good site!

[Dengue_Dude]

It was explained to me that we had 'E' models with 'big' engines and no Crossbleed Separation valve and the piddly little 30 lb/min flight deck conditioner (amongst other bits).

H models all had 'man-sized' conditioners eh? Mind you, the hypoxia has obviously caused brain damage, 'cos I'm still flying . . . I should know better.

Either way RAAF lads, well done. Bet those beers tasted good.

Little note (having been a sim instructor too), I'm sure that this real 'abnormal gear' incident won't count towards the Refresher Training! I am convinced the 'real thing' doesn't count towards stats.

[Old Fella]

Ozbiggles, I don't want a slanging match either. Just wanted to make the point that being open and up front worked for me. I know things change but I hope not to the extent you feel. Hope you liked what you saw at HerkyNirds.com. Dengue_Dude, the Flight Deck aircon unit on the "H" was upgraded to 70 Lb/min (same as the C/Comp)flow with the ability to divert part of the flow to augment the Cargo Compartment system if required.