Pacific Blue to Bali from December 1

[vee1-rotate]

Has been confirmed, just got a sale email bout 5 minutes ago from Pacific Blue, starting Bali services from 1st December, direct services from Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth

Perth - Denpasar from $199*

Brisbane - Denpasar from $299*

Adelaide - Denpasar from $299*

Sydney - Denpasar from $379*^

Melbourne - Denpasar from $379*^

Canberra - Denpasar from $379*^

[The Hill]

Why not virgin?? Only intl ops for pb?

[coaldemon]

I think you will find it is VB crews operating these sectors.

[Skystar320]

Virgin Blue cannot operate international services under the DJ brand

[Mr. Hat]

PB VB? Doesn't matter people look at the $199.

[aulglarse]

Direct service from Brisbane? sheez what a looong sector.

[NZScion]

Skystar, you will find both VB and PB use the IATA designator DJ.

E.g.

BNE - DRW, operated by VB, Aussie crew = DJ449
BNE - WLG, operated by PB, NZ crew = DJ68

[takingover]

Pacific Blue could possibly fly the services out of Brisbane, Sydney & Melbourne as they already operate through those ports. However, they don't go anywhere near Adelaide & Perth at the moment & don't currently fly into Canberra. While the Canberra service will probably go through Sydney anyway & can therefore be done by Virgin to Sydney & then PB to Bali, the other two sectors would be a problem for PB. I don't see PB flying domestic sectors in Oz, & I don't see PB positioning crews & aircraft to Adelaide & Perth.

That being said, Virgin had 5 or 6 aircraft in Pacific Blue colours & Australian regos flying in Australia a year ago. These were aircraft that were supposed to go to PB, but were held by Virgin in Oz. I think that Virgin needed the capacity more at the time. One of these aircraft went to NZ when a NZ registered PB aircraft was in the hanger for maintenance. That is why the PB crews hold both NZ & Oz licenses.

That number has obviously dropped due to the expansion on the other side of the Tasman with domestic sectors & further international sectors added in the last year, but a number remain. Perhaps someone could enlighten us on exactly how many are left in Oz.

It is likely that Virgin will still have sufficent of these aircraft in Oz to fly the Bali services with an aircraft in Pacific Blue colours, although it will be a little restrictive with fleet planning. It would be likely that aircraft in Virgin colours might end up doing some of the flights, like aircraft in PB colours do some of the Polynesian Blue flying. It would depend on how close to the wind the decision makers like to sail.

I think that it is quite likely that VB crews will fly some of the sevices to Bali, if not all of them.

[SilverSleuth]

VB crew will operate for the initial period to when PB crew can. PB crew already told about operating POM and HON soon after that. DPS will be after that when numbers and training are sufficient.

[wirgin blew]

ZH registered aircraft can operate in OZ and I am assuming therefore so can NZ based PB crew. So in time we may see PB do the connecting sectors as well. This is not so good for the VB crew but we have plenty to do already so is there much point kicking up a fuss over this?

[Chocks Away]

Takingover: "It would be likely that aircraft in Virgin colours might end up doing some of the flights, like aircraft in PB colours do some of the Polynesian Blue flying."

-Yoi may find it not possible, as SQ veto the use of the the Virgin brand Internationally out of Australia. It must be Pac or Poly paintwork. Pac & Poly aircraft regos exist on all 3 AOCs PB NZ/PB Oz & Poly and so can be interchanged readily. (Not sure if the veto applies to the Indian Ocean though?)
Last count 11 in Oz were that paintwork under VH rego, but that was back with a VB fleet of 50. Not sure what the mix is now.

Yes, ZK can operate in Oz, much like the 73-freighters, as well as PB crew being VH & ZK endorsed. All that has merged into one theatre of operation now, much like the VB crew flying PB routes currently... just when PB were desperately short of crew and an upgrade of T&Cs sort by their crew... :hmm:

[barrybeebone]

VB will probably only be allowed to use PB painted aircraft only on bali runs and VB painted planes with special permission. I say this because the annoucement states that PB is flying to Bali, not VB. I assume then that the flying rights obtained from Indon government are for PB not VB. If they want to use VB painted planes then special permission will be needed each time from Indon government. This is a hassle I think VB would prefer to minimise. Just ask Valuair and Jetstar. Because Jetstar is not allowed to fly from SIN to Jakarta, they still use Valuair painted aircraft. This means those aircraft are pretty much restricted to these routes only. If for maintenance or other reasons the Valuair painted planes cannot do the run to Jakarta, Jetstar need to get special permission to take a Jetstar plane. Quite a hassle when dealing with Indonesian bureacracy.

[KittyBlue]

VH or ZK rego planes can fly in and out of Australia, as Pacific Blue is registrered, AOC in NZ and AUS.

No Virgin Blue aircraft liveries will travel outside of the Australian territory, unless they are non rev flights, humanitarian services. There are plenty Pac Blue VH aircraft livery operating to cover any shortfall.

[nomorecatering]

How can one airline tell another what it can and cant do?

[rexxxxxy]

Plan is to operate VH tails, PB paint, VB Crew. Operation is a wetlease from VB to PB.

All this happens *If/When VB get international charter AOC*. Hopefully by Dec1.

If not, then ZK tail, PB Paint, PB Crew.

[Chocks Away]

nomorecatering "How can one airline tell another what it can and cant do? "

Singapore Airlines have been partners with Sir Richard Branson in Virgin Atlantic since 1999 and hence have a say in the Virgin brand.

[dirty deeds]

I heard that up until last week, VB pilots were operating these services on a wet lease basis. Yet the company has changed its mind and PB crews will operate these services. Anyway, time will tell. I think V would love all its crews on contracts. I think this is the begining of the end!

[Octane]

my info is that PB will operate to Bali. Judging from the departure and arrival times, the Perth crews will be overnighting in Bali. The other flights have a 7-8 hour layover. Poor buggers, beach but no bintang....!

Octane

[KittyBlue]

Octane, which Perth crews are these?
The crew doing DPS flights are Brisbane based crew. Overnights would be either Per or Adl at this stage.

[apacau]

Using -800s or a re-painted -700? Don't the latter have better range (and hence more uplift capability on the longer BNE/ADL sectors)?

[KittyBlue]

There are only a handful of HGW 700's, the 90% of the others are tin tubes with no guts with a rubber band ... there would great weight restrictions...

[barrybeebone]

In today's Jakarta Post, the following story...looks like Brisbane market will be staurated pretty quickly

Indonesian flag carrier Garuda Indonesia will reopen direct flights between Bali and the Australian city of Brisbane from 13 December

[air doris]

I hope the cabin crew are prepared for it, DPS on a 737 in December is sheer hell, especially the longer sectors such as ADL & BNE. Good luck to them, I don't envy them a bit. Expext a LOT of difficult hand luggage, especially trying to stow difficult items on the -800 and the queue to the loo's will be a problem, they are never ending. Saying that, well done to Virgin for seeing a lack of carriers servicing that route and going in. Not too many people are happy to fly Garuda these days but the aircraft of choice for DJ would certainly persuade me to the opposition, JQ, only because of aircraft, a 737-800 v A330-200, needs no argument. Anyway great to see Bali happening again no matter who flies there, at least there is a choice again.

[rexxxxxy]

air doris,

JQ is a A320 ex BNE with a stop in DRW for three hours. Not an A330.

6h30m stick on the 737 direct, only about 30-45mins more than BNE-PER. About the same as APW-SYD which VB/PB already fly. 6.30..

Capped @ 140 pax (like APW) so hand luggage won't be a problem. :ok:

[KittyBlue]

An additional reason for the capping on the APW flights is that row 1-15 are allocated as A,C and D,F due to guest size. Of course this is changes per each flight.

[overhere]

International hand luggage these days with LAGS is not as bad as it previously was - people tend to pack the kitchen sink underneath.

The crew would suffer more hand luggage issues on a 5pm SYD/MEL service then they will on a BNE/DPS.

[Eastwest Loco]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but Pac Blue will be as popular as herpes on the Bali run, as is JQ.

I am talking about the died in the wool surfers and Baliophiles who enjoy Garuda's full service and lenient handling of surfboards/golf clubs etc. as well as full and friendly service. No put down to DJ customer service level intended or implied there.

Garuda is offering excellent fares at the moment, adding capacity and actually making very good dollars ex Australia. As I have already experienced with SLF on Pac Blue out of NAN, the no plane - too bad attitude will not cut it on DPS either, particularly when you have to pay for everything other than the cramped seat you have already purchased.

I will be recommending the Garuda bird I am afraid, as locals have bag transfer ex QF from here, regional NSW and QLD and can leave their hands out of their pockets for the International flight sector.

Does anyone else sense a "populate or perish" mindset creeping in at DJ?

Some of the recent decisions such as DPS Internationally with 737 equipment and MQL with the jungle bunny do not seem to make a lot of sense.

MQL seems like a Rex hunt, so to speak and is a very big negative for the port. The last thing a regional port needs is jet equipment coming in over viable full service. Of course the "town fathers" never see this as they are all looking for any point of self gratification in the eyes of their constituents. DPO is no different. At least Rex is rearing on its hind legs and annoyin DJ. Well done Jed Wokka and the crew.

Best all

EWL

[fritzandsauce]

Where PB & J* have a big advantage is people are able to book flights from the comfort of their own home. Garuda you still need to go through one of their ticket offices or a Travel Agent. Some regulars would prefer the convenience of booking it at home.

[AAA578]

PB will operate this route flying

BNE-DPS-PER

PER-DPS-BNE

[On Guard]

Is that PB Crew or Pb a/c with wetleased VB crew? Last we were told is it's VB Crew on a PB a/c?

I can't see PB having the crew in Dec to start straight away but they will be fairly keen to get PB crew on it asap.

[Yusef Danet]

Bris based crew.

No way PB (NZ) would have the manpower to add all the flights and aircraft that are coming on line between now and the end of the year... BNE-DPS, ADL-DPS, PER-DPS, BNE-POM, BNE-HIR, SYD-AKL, APW-BNE, add BNE-WLG and the SYD-VLI and MEL-AKL that just started.

[ditzyboy]

PB will operate this route flying

BNE-DPS-PER

PER-DPS-BNE

A quick look at the schedule will see that the aircraft rotations are alot more complex than that, with ADL thrown in.

[Skystar320]

PB will operate this route flying

BNE-DPS-PER

PER-DPS-BNE

A quick look at the schedule will see that the aircraft rotations are alot more complex than that, with ADL thrown in.

I think you will find that these a.c will orginate from New Zealand with the crew o/n in Bali.

Makes sence, cheap accomodation, cheaper cabin crew

[Yusef Danet]

Brisbane based crew, at least for the first 12-18 months.

from the horse's mouth, not the other end.

[TIMMEEEE]

Oh great, so now if you want to go to Bali from SYD or MEL you have to operate domestically then swap over onto an international flight.

What a pain!
Jesus H......it pains me to say it but I would rather fly with Jetstar!

Great time to be starting amongst the beginning of a credit crisis and/or possible recession.

[rescue 1]

Does anyone else sense a "populate or perish" mindset creeping in at DJ?
Have to agree with you East West Loco.

The business is able to get a foothold in the market while other operators are pulling out, yet the business has to be able to sustain losses until the market turns around while waiting for the yield to pick up. Tough call. If the strategy comes off - all will be hailed as hero's; if not 5000 employees will be updating their CV's.

The mantra from the VB board I believe was to "get back to basics". Extending into unknown territory is not living up to their own expectation!

[topend3]

the extension into WA with the E-Jets shall be interesting to watch as this took everyone by surprise, in particular the KTA market where they have gone double-daily straight up and don't appear to have a resource contract as yet...

[wirgin blew]

Topend3 my sources tell me that you need to ask more of your mining mates or perhaps they haven't been told yet by their bosses. Perhaps EWL can look into how many seats are actually left for sale on these flights. I believe that the loads will be quite good straight off the bat.

[topend3]

mate happy to be proved wrong. i just get the impression everyone who whines up here about no competition are the same people that won't vote with their feet and support an alternative. My seats are booked so lets hope many more follow suit and if they have picked up some of the smaller contractors then thats superb...the range of $99 and $159 fares still available on the website within the first fortnight of launch tends to suggest otherwise.

[dirty deeds]

VB asking F/O's if they want a command at PB. Don't worry, they will get the crews, and the basings will be BNE and SYD on PB pay and conditions. I reckon its a sure bet. If the boys at VB are strong enough to influence these Gen Y to not take up a PB command, maybe, and just maybe, VB pilots will eventually do some international flying. If not, its the begining of the end.

All the cards are falling into place. The management at VB have been testing the waters for quite a while now. Secondments to PB, VAUS contracts, now F/O's who want a quick command can go an help set up PB to become VB's Jetstar. Its happening, and its happening now. This has been in the pipe line for a very long time. PB to BG, is like Impulse to GD. Its a sleeping menace that is very soon to rear its ugly head. Boys look out, its going to get ugly. And a usual, the pilots will allow this to happen and self destruct.:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:

[AAA578]

I think this will be a Full PB setup as VB are not allowed to fly INTL under the VIRGIN name, due to the agreement they have with Virgin Atlantic

[coaldemon]

Arrangement is between SIA and Virgin Group for the international side of things. Aircraft will have Pacific Blue titles , Australian registered flown by VB crews.

[Section28- BE]

So with VH tails who's getting the Australian Intl AOC to put them on- VB or PB???

[coaldemon]

PB Australia have the AOC

[The Hill]

I take it's VB crews on VB conditions?

[slice]

coaldemon - as of a few days ago VB now have a CASA Area AOC to fly in ICAO areas Y (Australia), N (NZ + big chunk of South Paicifc), A (PNG + Melanesia), and W (Indonesia, Singers, Malaysia).

[walaper]

As long as the tube has "Pacific Blue " on the outside it doesn't matter if it is VH or ZK.;)

[slice]

If it's ZK then the crewing costs are ,at a guess, about 2/3rds of a VH aircraft

[Cloud Cutter]

slice, ordinarily yes, but in this case it's 3/3 :8

[dirty deeds]

I have heard the basings for PB DEC will be a BNE base! The company is also threatening if pilots do not take up excess annual leave there will be redundancies. The next line will be that if pilots do not take PB or VAUS positions on substandard pay and conditions, you will be made redundant. You can read between the lines on this one. They have the master plan and there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Vigins J* is about to be born and the Credit Crisis is the pertfect excuse to get the ball rolling.

Where is the Union whilst all this is going on. They can tell people to Vote NO at VAus but they can't advise VB pilots to not take up DEC's at PB!

Its truely all over for Pilots pay and conditions in this country. I bet in years to come, more and more pilots will leave to head overseas, just like the ATC guys, because pay and conditions will be so S^&T that its not even worth working in your home country. And we all just stand back and let it happen. What a joke!:(:(:(:(

[coaldemon]

Looks like a good old conspiracy theory. Excellent.

[DeltaT]

Limited population/customers=Limited number of airlines in the area=Limited requirement for pilots=Limit on the employment conditions.

Hence why if you plug in 'overseas', like Europe, you can see how the equation pans out

[dirty deeds]

Time will tell coaldemon, time will tell!

Hope your high enough on the start date list my friend, otherwise it's Vaus or PB for you! Do you like Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch or Sydney, take your pick! And the clause will be "a position back at VB will only be available if a position becomes vacant after a minimum of 30 months". :ok::ok::ok:

All the aircraft are going to PB and VAUS, today the 737 fleet at VB will be the biggest it's ever been in the history of the company! Time will tell and I hope I am wrong.

[Parc-Ratstej]

Dirty Deeds-I couldnt agree more,and when the shi! hits the fan and the industry is fu#ked,rest assured, the current leader of the AFAP would have silently retired (to a comfy fund based on the wage of a 727 captain from years gone by).At the end of the day we have followed the advice of the union, but only have ourselves to blame.We believed them.The upper echelon of the AFAP have have set up the industry for a period of untold shafting and dissapointment for many years to come....What amazes me is the die hard AFAP advocate that bails people up in the car park,questioning why you have left the AFAP-just because there hanging out for the golden hand shake,all of 20 grands worth of mbf fees-You tossers,wake up and look at the big picture-As you have so eloquently expressed youreslves elsewhere-grow some Ball$-Look at the Future-sad thing is-your the ones that fuc##d it.Yes, I have grown some balls and stood up for myself-In fact it was very simple- I joined another union!

[ad-astra]

Parc-Ratstej

What an angry young man

I guess it is easy stand on the side lines and criticise all sides of the pilot’s representatives - AFAP-VIPA-AIPA.

The act of joining a union is a start but unless the MEMBERS actually initiate some action, get involved with the day to day running of whatever union takes their fancy and participate then it will ultimately deteriorate into another slanging match of who has done naught!

Your criticism of the 'die hard' AFAP advocates maybe valid but walk in my shoes (and his) first before you become the doyen of Industrial Relations in Australian Aviation.

You indicate you have left the AFAP, joined the VIPA and would be more than willing to join AIPA.

Perhaps that famous Y Generation characteristic of 'I want it now - I deserve it now - give it to me now' is part of the problem as well.

My generation had a characteristic.......I think it was called loyalty.


I'm glad you now walk taller for your new growth spurt!

[Parc-Ratstej]

ad-astra-your points are noted and yes I am angry,Im also 40 years of age so I dont think the gen y tag is suitable.I was extremelly active in the AFAP for 6 years in a past life,I was a paid member for 13 years and yes I have joined another union.I totally agree that individual members are required to assist and provide input for a union to become an effective tool,however it also requires confident leadership from the top and not stunned silence in a time where companies are out to screw each and every one of us.The honor of leading an organization such as the AFAP or any union should be earnt and over extended periods of time new faces and personalities need to be introduced,you could call it a succession plan-I dont see that happening.VIPA may or may not be the answer but one thing is for sure-the formation of VIPA can only help each and every one of us,Why you ask-because at the very least it will make the AFAP sharpen up there act.VIPA hasnt caused division amongst the troops either-that was a side affect of the past two eba's and the way in which they were sold to the troops.

One things for sure,I certainly have no intention of harrasing and confronting individuals over there choice of union representation-some of these guys need to take a step back.They look desperate,they act desperate and only harm there own cause,Sure theve been through some tough times, but hey-havn't we all?

[ad-astra]

Parc-Ratstej - I think we agree on more points than we disagree.

The AFAP has certainly not achieved the success that we as Professional Pilots had hoped and expected.
Looking around though I struggle to see a suitable role model in any of the other Professional Pilot representative groups - AIPA, JPC, TWU (NJS), VIPA or any of the International Pilot bodies. They are all struggling with the new age of LCC's and a whole new set of industrial relations rules that have moved the goal posts forever.

We seem to be in agreement that we will only succeed if we are truly a representative Union/Federation

Alas the current fractionalization of our 'representative might' will have us at the mercy of airline managements for the foreseeable future.

I also am reticent to walk away from the AFAP after 25+ years as my MBF refund will be in the order of $50K -$60K. For those pilots who choose to commit to the MBF it is a very worthy organization one that repays its members for loyalty.

That same refund is and will be available to yourself or any other pilot who remains with the MBF for 20 years continuously (or in total).
Sad thing is that most of the younger guys I fly with cannot comprehend that degree of commitment to the industry let alone the MBF.

The principles of the AFAP (and just as importantly the MBF) were well founded. It is a shame that history has not been learnt that what we have now is worth holding on to, rather than starting afresh.

Perhaps I was a bit touchy on reading your 'appraisal' of our industry -

"Dirty Deeds-I couldn’t agree more, and when the shi! hits the fan and the industry is fu#ked,rest assured"


- and your belief that all before you (myself included) are responsible for the state that the aviation industry is in now.

"You tossers,wake up and look at the big picture-As you have so eloquently expressed youreslves elsewhere-grow some Ball$-Look at the Future-sad thing is-your the ones that fuc##d it"


That we will have to disagree on!

We all work towards the same goal.

[Skystar320]

How about bringing the topic back round to the actual "Pacific Blue to Bali from December 1 " no union issues

Has it been confimed will they use Australian crew in Brisbane, or Pacific Blue crew

[KittyBlue]

Australian CC on wet lease from VB, and PB pilots. This was changed from VB pilots.

[walaper]

kitty blue as of yesterday it was still vb tech crew but some uncertainty on POM crewing but as it stands with the shortage of victims for pb it could end up vb crew on pb conditions (vb fo's upgrading on pb conditions):eek:

[Capt Basil Brush]

vb crew on pb conditions (vb fo's upgrading on pb conditions)

I am not sure where they will get VB fo's from to upgrade on PB conditions.

Suitable ones have either had a go at command, and are now in the sin bin for 12mths, or will take an E jet command (heaps of those available) on lots more coin than PB conditions.

Anyone who goes for the offer of PB conditions (current VB pilots) would have rocks in their head - and will be assisting VB's master plan of reducing term and conditions.

[dueweno]

And what makes you think there will be any shortage of those??

[Capt Basil Brush]

Any shortage of what??

If you read it properly, I am talking about current VB FO's accepting PB conditions for a 737 command. There may be a shortage of those. Anyone ready for a command would most likely take an Ejet command, and earn heaps more than a 737 command on PB terms.

[dueweno]

Anyone who goes for the offer of PB conditions (current VB pilots) would have rocks in their head - and will be assisting VB's master plan of reducing term and conditions.

Any shortage of these

[hot tuna]

Not only will the VB pilots taking up positions with PB severly undermine current PB pilots, and therefore cause a great deal of animosity between the two groups. Accountants beware - I do see a link between low morale, disengaged staff and perhaps not operating the aircraft as cost effectively as possible.

[On Guard]

It's a curly issue really, as now PB pilots are part of the VB group they are equally entitled to apply for command (and other) opportunities at VB/VA. However it would be very unlikely they would get one with the start date PB pilots have in the VB group. But all things being equal VB pilots are entitled to apply for opportunities at PB even though it is a hard one to swallow. A bigger issue is the ongoing use of VB pilots on VB wages which is avoiding layoffs but costing the company. Pb could solve problems easily by just raising the Capt's salary. I'm guessing a few JC guys will be over soonish anyway.

I don't think many VB guys applied anyway and I suspect the ones that do will get their hours and leave.

As an offside my uneducated opinion on VA - I would pull the pin and "delay" launch for 2 yrs. Sell the 777 slots and recoup some of the start ups costs. I definitely do think not think this is the time for expansion even though VA is a valid business case.

[ishkaban]

Was told today that the VB aircraft operating the DPS services are all 737 800's in Pacific Blue livery

VH VOQ Peta Pan
VH VOX Missy Mainlander
VH VUM Brindabella Blue
VH VUN Madelaide

Also told that all PB Denpaser sectors except BNE-DPS, ADL-DPS PER-DPS, will offer FREE Foxtel TV Live to air.
The $9.90 looks like it will only be charged on the outgoing sectors above, , not inbound to Australia.

It also seems that no seating configuration / seat pitch will be altered on these aircraft

[framer]

I'm guessing a few JC guys will be over soonish anyway.

why? i thought the jc guys were on the same or better money? also thought they were home more.

[wirgin blew]

Doubt the Foxtel will work all the way there. The movies would be good to inlcude in the ticket price but they dont like doing things like that at VB.

[7378FE]

wirgin blew : Do you want to put your house on that :ok:

[ishkaban]

No doubt the L2A is free because they cant guarantee the signal. Movies will be shown at $9.90, pay per view

[Chocks Away]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Foxtel operate off the Optusnet satellite?

If it does, it shouldn't have any trouble, especially at altitude, all the way up into Thailand. We were utilising that satellite up the other end of Indonesia, admittedly close to the horizon @ ground level.

[TBM-Legend]

mmmmm,,,,,off to Bali after the 'execution' of those cowardly bastards.

Are helmets and flak jackets checked or carry on luggage on VQ?

[wirgin blew]

Back to the Live2Air. Does VOX even have it installed? Going to be along trip with nothing if your flying BNE-DPS.

[MELKBQF]

VOX has live TV installed.

[PBN]

VOX does not have live to air. A/C without live to air will are fitted with Digi Players. A portable entertainment system of sorts.