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flash8
18th Sep 2008, 19:12
COURSE LENGTH
How long was the Hamble course and what was the failure rate? Where were the training centres?

JET TRANSITION
Did Trainees fly circuits in the actual a/c - how long? I Have heard stories of trainees using the VC-10 in training.

STREAMING
As I understand, SO 707/VC-10 was the classic BOAC route (And SO Trident for BEA) ? Would being put on the Heron or Viscount/Vanguard seem bad at the time?

TIME TO COMMAND
How long as SO, and FO before SFO (Did they always have those?) and Captain on average?

ROLES
How did the SO differ from the FO? DId the SO perform F/E duties (or Navigator on the 707/747).

COMPANY TRANSITION
How easy to move between BEA and BOAC?

Many thanks if anybody knows the answers!

T-21
18th Sep 2008, 19:26
Not a lot but i can remember in the early 70's, the 707 and VC-10's crew training at RAE Bedford (Thurleigh) on Saturdays,also they used Shannon alot for training.

Captain Airclues
18th Sep 2008, 19:42
flash8

I will answer as it relates to BOAC and leave the BEA answers to somebody else.

The Hamble course was 18 months. BOAC/BEA also trained pilots at Perth and Oxford although the course was shorter (1 year?).

The failure rate at Hamble was about 30%, although much smaller at Perth and Oxford. 48 started on my Hamble course and 32 finished.

Pilots joining BOAC went on to either the 707 or VC10.

After simulator training, up to two weeks of aircraft base training were completed which included about 40 landings.

Pilots had to complete a full Flight Navigators course and obtain the red licence. One of the co-pilots would have to navigate on Nav sectors whether they were SO, FO or SFO.

Two years were spent as SO (one stripe) followed by a further eight years as FO (two stripes). SFO (three stripes) came after ten years in the company. Time to command varied between nine years and twenty years (unfortunately twenty in my case).

It was not easy to transfer to BEA until the merger when it slowly became possible.

In 1969 BOAC produced an excellent film showing the training of a BOAC pilot, from starting the course at Hamble to completing his line training. There are some excellent shots of the VC10 during his base training at Shannon.

Hope this helps

Dave

flash8
18th Sep 2008, 20:25
Guys, many thanks, Capt. Airclues, the failure rate at Hamble was about 30% seems that the course must have been tough.

As a self-improver - how did these fare with entry into BOAC/BEA back then? Was the mood prejudicial towards such oiks (I firmly place myself in this category!) ?

Talking about prejudice, previous inquiries revealed that some BOAC captains refused to socialize down route with the F/E's on the basis of class! Now thats one for the history books.

All answers are greatly appreciated. My curiosity about the "olde days" knows no bounds I'm afraid.

aviate1138
19th Sep 2008, 07:44
I have been witness [late at night] to a number of pilots crawling/unable to stand across a polished wooden floor, on their way to more booze at the bar.........who all claimed that only Hamble produced real pilots, the other halls of commercial piloting being decidedly inferior!

And the bitching over seniority!!!! :rolleyes:

BTW Did any women graduate from Hamble? They must have gone through h*ll......

Female pilots are so much more fun to fly with - ego problems don't exist do they?

Captain Airclues
19th Sep 2008, 09:45
flash8

The Hamble course was no tougher than either the Perth or Oxford course. However the BEA/BOAC management were able to influence the Hamble graduation numbers to fit their needs. The other schools, being private establishments were not as easily influenced. There were several excellent pilots who were 'chopped' from my course, and many of them went on to have successful careers in other airlines.

Although the colleges supplied the bulk of the pilots for a while, there was also recruitement from other sources such as the military and 'self-improvers'. The only difference was that anyone joining with an ATPL was given two years seniority on joining.

The vast majority of captains were very sociable and I never saw any snobbery with FE's. Most of them were ex WW11 pilots with several rows of medal ribbons. They had some great stories to tell after a couple of beers in the bar.

aviate1138

Sad!

Best Wishes

Dave

wiggy
19th Sep 2008, 10:43
"Female pilots are so much more fun to fly with - ego problems don't exist do they?"

:ooh:

BEagle
19th Sep 2008, 12:12
One wonders what the reaction of today's ba beancounters would be to the concept of training their own pilots on an 18-month course!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

BYMONEK
21st Sep 2008, 16:32
..............and the 40 touch & go's for base training! Nowdays they even complain about the cost of 2 hours in the sim for ZFT.

wrecker
23rd Sep 2008, 18:22
I went through Hamble in the mid 60s on one of the early 18 month courses prior to that the course had been 2 years. Also at the time they ran a 1 year course for university graduates. 38 started the course 21 graduated
After graduation from Hamble I joined BEA and did a conversion onto my first type with the usual chalk and talk technical course. (not many teaching aids and no procedure trainer) A full ARB written exam followed.
The simulator course was 60 hours followed by 10hrs of aircraft time involving upper air work ( stalling, high speed run, relighting and dutch rolling) and circuit bashing (all engines engine out in day and night and flapless landings) Then 40 sectors of line training.

Jimarilo
6th Oct 2008, 12:50
Hi all,

Just found this site today whilst searching for some info for my G/F Joanne Plastow who's dad was Alfie Plastow

There is alot that we both don't know about Jo's parents and any info would be helpful

I am very interested myself as he sounded quite a guy and wish I could have met him

From what I know he flew Wellingtons in the 2nd world war, but for what squadron we don't know

After the war he flew Tri-stars for BEA, where he met Joannes mother who was one of the first seven air stewardess's

He went on to teach with fight simulators, maybe at Heston we don't know. Alfie died around 20yrs ago and Jo's mother sum 35 yrs ago

Alfie had 2 families and provided for both of them both before and after he died, like I say quite a guy

Regards

kala87
12th May 2009, 14:48
I recall hearing from a retired TWA Connie Captain about a transit stop he made at Shannon in the early 1950's. He was much amused to see a BOAC crew enjoying breakfast in the airport restaurant, except for their Captain, who was sitting in imperious isolation at his own table. From his description, I think it may have been Capt.O.P.Jones, one of the legendary BOAC "Barons" of the 1940's and 1950's.

Was this the same chap who later tarnished his record by landing his Stratocruiser short at Goose Bay in the mid-1950's?

Rainboe
13th May 2009, 12:01
There's a lot of nonsense spoken by individuals about the alleged snobbishness at BOAC. I came through Hamble in 1969 and started flying in BOAC on VC10s. I never saw any of the alleged behaviour though lots of people talk about it! There was more drinkingin those days, and t must have been difficult for some of the old ex-war Captains in their 50s seeing this flood of 20/21 year old bright and bushy young pilots being thrust upon them! I recall a lot of help and advice and a gentle introduction to the wide world!

We had a 1/3 failure rate. One course that was undesired lost 8 out of 11. Wonderful years, superb unlimited training and 'enjoy yourself at Shannon'. Not like that anymore!

Brit312
13th May 2009, 19:30
As a newly joined F/E with BOAC in 1968 I never experienced any problems with Captains and/or the pilot group. We were just four people enjoying both the jobs we were doing and the chance it gave us to see the world. In fact I always found the older members of the crew, Captains included, always willing to show us youngsters around or at least advise on what to go and see, mind you in some of the less desirable places of the world I now realize I might have done better to ignore some of their advise :)

I remember it all with great fondness

YLpilot
18th Oct 2018, 20:14
Really interesting how was flight training in 1960s/1970s in comparison with modern.
How many ATPL theory exams were, same subjects or different ?
It was possible to move for example with UK CAA licence to another european state?
Thanks!

blind pew
19th Oct 2018, 05:24
Air law 1 & 2, nav plot and theory, engines, aerodynamics, radio theory, practical including Morse at 12 words per minute, liberal studies where you kept stumm as you had signed the official secrets act and there was active recruitment at British universities. Met 1 and 2...possibly performance although think that was done in the corporation's.mental calcs which many feared as they did with the link trainer and a polish? Instructor.
student unions bar where those who could afford it practised heavy drinking so that they were up to speed before they joined the corporations.
225 hours including 70 on the baron of which 20? Was solo.
corrections to previous posts..BEA did put guys onto the vanguard first..we had to fly three pilot aircraft first and were trained up as some of the old boys couldn't fly an instrument approach on the trident.
. 2 years SO, two years AFO, four years FO then SFO when you got onto Dan Air FO salary ..20 years to command. Was worse than pay to fly nowadays.
Lord king changed everything and got rid of most of the dross in management.
Transfer wasn't easy and I was on the first group..I had a lot to learn about professionalism and was qualified P1 on a heavy jet when 28.
wasn't that easy to transfer countries..I did to CH who desperately needed experienced pilots of high standard and basically pulled the strings in the luftampt but we still has to do one of the ATPL exams.
Their training both ground and in the air made BA look like amateurs, which was partly due to taking in a mix of training captain's from around the world on mega salaries and a core of single seat jet jockies predominately both Swiss and Luftwaffe.

Cazalet33
19th Oct 2018, 11:41
Flash, you may find this documentary, made around 1970, interesting.
(ignore the first 35 seconds)
https://youtu.be/03ppjh8lg_8?t=36

Centaurus
19th Oct 2018, 13:53
There's a lot of nonsense spoken by individuals about the alleged snobbishness at BOAC.

During a visit to England in the early 1980's I met Captain David Beaty who wrote a book on flight safety called The Naked Pilot. David was a former wartime bomber pilot who joined BOAC after leaving the RAF. He also wrote a book called Call me Captain,based upon his time in BOAC. I stand to be corrected as it was a long time ago. He lived in Sussex or Kent then. At the time I was a 737 captain with a South Pacific operator as well as being a former RAAF pilot.

David kindly invited my wife and I into his cottage for a cuppa and chat. I mentioned how much I had enjoyed his book. The Naked Pilot was all about pilot error incidents and accidents. David said he had experienced great reluctance by many of the captains he had interviewed for his book, to admit they had made mistakes.

I suggested to him that if he ever got around to writing a sequel to The Naked Pilot, it would be worthwhile his interviewing airline first officers as they would have been immediate witnesses to their captain's mistakes.
I must have inadvertently crossed a line in the sand of British Class, because as soon as I suggested First Officers as a source of information, David rose to his feet, thanked me curtly for my time and gave my wife and I the metaphorical bum's rush out of the door. We drove away, shaking our heads in bewilderment.

Bergerie1
19th Oct 2018, 16:23
I joined BOAC in 1962, having been on the first course at Hamble - it was a two year course in those days. I then had to do a flight navigator's course and operated on Britannia 312s as a straight nav for two years before converting to VC10s as a pilot/navigator in 1964. As others have mentioned on this thread, the co-pilots, regardless of seniority, alternated between the right hand seat and the nav table on a fairly equitable basis. And they did so until INS was retro-fitted in the early 1970s.

I found the vast majority of captains to be very helpful to young blokes like me. However, there was a small minority, consisting of some of the old 'Atlantic Barons' (as they were called) and a few very odd types who were very odd indeed and very autocratic - but they were the minority. I can remember many more times being given very good advice and help during route flying and during bar-room chat. And also hearing many wonderful stories of the old days of flying boats and such like.

It is a great shame that it was the few odd-balls who were much talked about and who gave the rest a bad name.

Chris Scott
19th Oct 2018, 17:13
During a visit to England in the early 1980's I met Captain David Beaty who wrote a book on flight safety called The Naked Pilot. David was a former wartime bomber pilot who joined BOAC after leaving the RAF. He also wrote a book called Call me Captain,based upon his time in BOAC. I stand to be corrected as it was a long time ago. He lived in Sussex or Kent then. At the time I was a 737 captain with a South Pacific operator as well as being a former RAAF pilot.

David kindly invited my wife and I into his cottage for a cuppa and chat. I mentioned how much I had enjoyed his book. The Naked Pilot was all about pilot error incidents and accidents. David said he had experienced great reluctance by many of the captains he had interviewed for his book, to admit they had made mistakes.

I suggested to him that if he ever got around to writing a sequel to The Naked Pilot, it would be worthwhile his interviewing airline first officers as they would have been immediate witnesses to their captain's mistakes.
I must have inadvertently crossed a line in the sand of British Class, because as soon as I suggested First Officers as a source of information, David rose to his feet, thanked me curtly for my time and gave my wife and I the metaphorical bum's rush out of the door. We drove away, shaking our heads in bewilderment.

Seems an odd reaction, considering he was evidently well into the frailties of interpersonal relationships in the cockpit. I wonder what he thought of the introduction of CRM courses in the 1980s.

Beaty's early novel, "The Heart of the Storm", was evidently based on his post-war experiences with BSAA and graphically describes the pressures associated with long-haul ops at medium altitudes in bad weather over the mid-Atlantic with limited navigational aids and fuel.

Back on topic, I think the reason the BOAC/BEA cadet courses at Perth and Oxford were shorter than at Hamble may have been that the ATPL ground studies were not covered. Presumably the chaps I remember at Scone (Perth) in 1966/7 went to Hamble later to get their deferred ATPLs? The standard CPL/IR course at Perth was supposed to be about a year, although bad wx typically caused delays of a month or two - sometimes at the IR stage.

Some of the "Atlantic barons" mentioned by Bergerie 1 seem to have taken retirement jobs (aged 50) in the independents. I flew with one of them on Herons and Daks. A bit pompous. Having been used to flying on IFR flight-plans, he was completely lost when flying off-airways at low altitude, thinking that an ATC clearance ensured separation. (I'd probably be just as bad now!) Fortunately, he left us after a year or so for a job on B720s with newly-formed Monarch, which would have been more of his cup of tea.

blind pew
19th Oct 2018, 18:26
That only started with the third or fourth course that started in 1970..prior to that we had to do the whole lot bar air law again.
in BEA there was a small chop rate on initial type course on the non Hamble guys around my time whereas the Hamble guys got through.. part of it was the higher chop rate at Hamble and the older age of the university graduates who generally didn't go through Hamble.
I will add, which I believe is relevent, is that BEA believed everyone could be a captain on any aircraft with the result that we had a few blokes you wouldn't trust to fly you family with.
I met a pilot in postmans park in the city a couple of years ago having recognised his flight bag..when I mentioned my genisis his reply " another Hamble mafia" wrt many of the management jobs that our lot got. Not always the best place for some of us..

Meikleour
21st Oct 2018, 16:28
Chris Scott,
I was on one of the BEA/BOAC graduate courses at Oxford in 1970. We did indeed cover the full ATPL but did not get any credit for it. If you recall, one had to have a certain minimum hours to apply to sit the exams which came after about two years on the line. One could then be a SCPL ie. able to command an aircraft up to about Viscount size but more importantly enabling one to progress to full F/O. The full ATPL was issued with more flying time and NO practIcall test!
My course ran a 20% chop rate and many on the course were exUAS hence 100+ hours previous experience. No graduates failed airline conversion despite blind pews assertions as to our dottering older age!

Base training on Vanguards was extensive probably due to the many deficiencies of the sim. I truly believe that the older style of training produced a more confident pilot however money versus risk will always trump. I feel sorry for the new modern captain who may have to learn that simulator fidelity is not always good!!
But, as they say - for me, the war is over.

Airclues
21st Oct 2018, 17:07
One wonders what the reaction of today's ba beancounters would be to the concept of training their own pilots on an 18-month course!



And what would their reaction be to the amount of base training. After the two weeks and forty landings mentioned in my post number 3 we were issued with a "landing card" which allowed you to fly a sector by day only, when flying with a training captain. It took a further three visits to either Shannon or Bedford to be issued with an unrestricted landing card. Add to that the cost of training all of your pilots to navigate (the full Flight Navigators Licence) and taking them off line during the nav training.

The beancounters must have had heart attacks.

blind pew
21st Oct 2018, 18:03
perhaps you would remember one of your lot who got chopped and joined Cambrian iirc got a command and jumped several years up the seniority list..although it could have just been the FO date which is what the common seniority was based on and took us 4 years.
I was lucky transferring onto the VC10 as I got from the outset a full landing card and P1 in my license. I cocked up my final check whilst flying or rather spending most of the trip on the karsi with salmonella poisoning and after waiting more than a month for the local public health authorities to give me clearance to go back to work I was given an aircraft out of base to go and have an hours circuit bashing at Stansted. Unfortunately the ex hamster instructor wasnt a lot of cop as he didnt realise my problem..the iron duck trimming system trimmed the stick into the neutral, central position unlike anything else I had flown. Eventually twigged doing a night approach into Beirut on a chop flight. never looked back after that

Meikleour
21st Oct 2018, 22:19
Blind Pew,
If "by one of my lot" you mean one out of 350 graduate entry cadets - then, no I do not remember him!
what I do remember is the shameful manoeuvring by BALPA over the creation of the common seniority list in order to place everyone from the old BOAC list above my course - ironic since my course had been allotted to BOAC and then stood down and placed with BEA.
After leaving the corporations I flew with many of the exBOAC old guard. And enjoyed their company!

Airclues
22nd Oct 2018, 06:10
what I do remember is the shameful manoeuvring by BALPA over the creation of the common seniority list in order to place everyone from the old BOAC list above my course

I find this very hard to believe. I have in front of me the entire BA/BCAL joint seniority list which was produced on 8th January 1988. If you PM me the DOJ of your course, I will see if any BOAC pilots went ahead of your course. The list is 39 pages long so I haven't checked it all, but from what I can see it was done on date of joining for the BEA/BOAC pilots.

EDIT;

Meikleor

From your other posts I assume that your course joined in 1971. I have checked the list for 1971 and the seniority was done strictly on date of joining. If you want to give me your email address (by PM) I can scan and send you the pages. It is sad if you've been labouring under a misapprehension for all these years.

blind pew
22nd Oct 2018, 11:38
It was the joint seniority list made at the creation of BA in 76?
My course which joined around the time the vanguard made a smoking hole near Ghent was the first course after the last Hamble/Oxford/Perth cadet joined BOAC, which was supposed to be the demarcation line for cross bidding. Unfortunately our BALPA rep was as desperate as a lot of others to leave BEA which had a dreadful accident rate and changed the date by two years so that he got onto the jumbo. There was a proviso that no BEA copilot would be senior to any BOAC pilot..iirc wrt to bid lists.
The guy did me a favour as I got the iron duck.
It wasn't unknown of BALPA REPs as we had a famous scumbag who sold us out after papa India and the next day joined management ..known by the bomber boys as that #### ####ing..inventor of the silent cockpit.
I had two of my course mates, one chopped and the second ex court line, victims of BALPA and the Dan Air merger which was to be done on seniority but at the last minute was done on those on the bus. One lost one won.

Airclues
22nd Oct 2018, 12:48
blind pew

You are talking about the temporary implementation period for bidding onto the 747. Once that period ended it was a free bid using their joint BA seniority. I trained many of these (captains and co-pilots) and they joined the fleet with their BA seniority based on DOJ. The list that I have was sent to everybody when we merged with BCAL. However the ex BEA and ex BOAC pilots are mixed and their position is based purely on DOJ.

blind pew
22nd Oct 2018, 15:57
remember the list going up ..48 pilots from BEA to be allowed to go to BOAC. vacancies 747, 707 and VC10..I bid for all three although I really only wanted a yank ship to get overseas as BEA looked down their noses at BOAC. I figured it couldn't be as bad as us as we had lost eight aircraft in my six years ..BOAC NIL although a few close shaves including a banana plantation at night.
Everyone had the same thought.
There had been a bid list for droop snoop but the amount of conversion failures, lack of flying and that it was apparently known as the masons fleet put paid to even applying.
With the threat of the duck being grounded towards the end of 78 and sending us back to the flat earth society I set about applying to uncle Tom et al. took the first one..nearly quit that one for CX and then offered sultan of oman but it's bad enough being Johnnie foreigner in Europe and as for the ex pat scene..

YLpilot
22nd Oct 2018, 18:22
What was the difference between BOAC & BEA and what company was more preferable for students.

blind pew
22nd Oct 2018, 23:17
Route network,aircraft, rosters time into rhs, time to command,pay, handling, concessions, time away,reserve duty having an engineer and in my time respect and professionalism.
.
After landing drinks different too; champers cocktail to be consumed after shutdown or brown milk whilst taxying.

Crumpet was the same and down the route antics just as naughty.

Course no different and only around graduation did you discover whether you got your wish. My course was offered Court line with a gratuity of £600 and no need to pay £1000 back towards training costs; which was a massive financial incentive then although when Court went bust one of my mates ended up working on a farm. Those that took it initially were viewed with suspicion but soon proved themselves and were far better off in many ways although they lost the quodos of being able to say that they were a Nigel at dinner parties (mixed blessing).

YLpilot
25th Oct 2018, 06:18
As I understood Hamble was much more preferable to study, or after graduation from Oxford & Perth also it was possible to work for BOAC or BEA.

YLpilot
25th Oct 2018, 09:25
Why and when European, American, etc. flight training become so compressed such as 18-24 months ?
I learned my PPL in Latvia, so most of my flight instructors were trained in soviet civil aviation schools, where training was a litle bit shorter, than 3 years
and flight time before graduation was only 100 hours.

blind pew
26th Oct 2018, 04:35
Hamble was airwork services training until 1960 and prior to that the base of the ATA during the war who ferried the aircraft. The corporations realised that they needed differently trained pilots than those available from the military who had a diabolical accident rate and the 700 hour improver route.
It wasn't just flying training but also training young gentlemen managers as the responsibilities of airline captains (and their skills) were very different to today. Oxford and Perth were commercial operations which took on the overspill and as such didn't have the same level of financial commitment as Hamble. Their graduates were just as good imho although as Hamble catered for mostly grammar school boys I have the feeling that we were hungrier and more malleable which is what an employer wants. We put up with more of the bullshit. But in the 70s BEA was haemorrhaging pilots.
100 hours! The Lane inquiry criticised our 225 hours as being too low. Nowadays 160 hours and no twin solo is deemed acceptable ( which doesn't include spinning). Of course we have a level of automatics, serviceability and information that was unheard of 50 years ago but when you look at Air France 447 you can see how horribly wrong it can go when you dont have crew with the required professionalism.

YLpilot
20th Jan 2019, 20:12
In good old times ATPL exams also were as a Multiple Choice Questions ?
Many Thanks

Meikleour
20th Jan 2019, 21:55
Definitely no multiple choice exams in the '70s ATPLs. All essay type answers or calculations shown type answers.

blind pew
20th Jan 2019, 22:17
Twenty years after I graduated from Hamble I decided I would get a FAA ATP.
I had the FAA question answer book air freighted over and read through it whilst doing a 5 day short haul rotation then flew over to Vegas with my family. The book covered flight dispatcher, helicopter, jet and piston aircraft but didn't differentiate between syllabus. Pass mark was 70% and I got 96% which shows how high Hambles standard was. Eight days after arriving I had a multi engine FAA ATP.

YLpilot
21st Jan 2019, 16:34
British aviation training always was great & superior
___
In `70s in Great Britain also was possible to learn ATPL via modular or integrated path ?
It was also recognisable in other european countries ?

Thank You, Sir

YLpilot
22nd Mar 2019, 21:45
There were any system prior to JAA or EASA in Europe in 1960s -1970s for recognition of pilots licences, or UK CAA CPL was valid only in Britain, French in France, German in Germany & etc. ?

blind pew
22nd Mar 2019, 22:14
Don't know the answer bar with the Swiss who needed special permission to recruit foreigners. The luftampt accepted SCPL and Atpl subject to a swissair course that included air law which opened my eyes as different to the UK law. (Germany and Switzerland mixed VFR and IFR traffic in controlled airspace which the Brits didn't nor did my old opos know).
At the time 23% of Swissair pilots were foreigners, mainly German and Dutch.
Crossair established their base in Basel Mulhause which was in three countries amd enabled to recruit worldwide including Russians which led to one total loss through misreading the artificial horizon (they indicated in a different sense).

YLpilot
23rd Mar 2019, 06:46
learning was through the Integrated path or Modular starting from PPL ?
As I know Integrated ATPL course was created in UK and MPL in Lufthansa academy?

YLpilot
23rd Mar 2019, 06:48
Yes soviet made artificial horizon is completely different, plane is moving, all around fixed

reemus
24th Mar 2019, 09:36
i like to read about trainings in 1960 years

blind pew
24th Mar 2019, 15:38
Originally two year residential...later 18 months and 225 hours flying of which 75 was on twins. 45 hours link trainer and 80 hours 4 jet simulator which was basically airways, crew cooperation and check lists. 1/3 rd of my course chopped. Standards much higher than board of trade requirement..eg Morse 12 wpm.
All written exams.
Lane inquiry recommendation of increasing the minimum flying hours.
I did 100 plus hours P1 singles and 40 plus twins (solo).
Three years later I read through my notes in a week and passed my ATPL..again written.
20 years later I read through the FAA ATP Q&A book twice and got 96%..which gives you an idea of the standards.
(BEA EIGHTEEN HOURS PLUS BASE TRAINING- and I still couldn't do a decent landing).(we tried in those days..tent peg landings hadn't yet become de rigueur )

YLpilot
24th Mar 2019, 20:40
In Hamble CAT were mandatory to pass 9 PPL exams & 14 ATPL theory as nowadays or only ATP ?

blind pew
24th Mar 2019, 22:36
We had to pass the college exams which were based on the board of trade sylabus but to a higher standard and more comprehensive which gave us a CPL but was above ATPL standard. Iirc courses after 1972 had a frozen ATPL upon graduation.
In reality the UK knowledge requirement was higher than the FAA exams I took years later.
I visited a training establishment a few years ago and was shocked to find that one could get a cpl with a total of 160 hours without any twin solo nor spinning and aerobatics.

YLpilot
25th Mar 2019, 05:08
Hamble CAT also add some extra subjects to the sylabus of the CAA ?

YLpilot
25th Mar 2019, 05:11
In EASA program today also minimum of Multi Engine is 13 h, without solo.
Only few academies fly IR(A) with Multi Engine, totally accumulating ~up to 40h.
It is quality downgrade, but much cheaper for students

blind pew
25th Mar 2019, 07:12
The only definite one was liberal studies but ex university cadets warned us to be careful as we might be watched wrt our political views which was apparently normal practice. Supposedly there were recruiters for the MI5 at all universities at that time. One of the first films we were shown was a German anti war film dubbed in English (all quiet on the western front). Worth watching imho.
I think that we probably just went into greater depth including the historical development for example the WW2 nav aids although some of them were still covered by the official secrets act which we had to sign.
As a side line, one of my mates had quit jet provosts after losing two on his course..said that the level of technical instruction was far inferior in the RAF.
We also had one from the Fleet Air Arm who commented about the huge number of fatal accidents from graduates of previous courses. (Many from car and motorcycle accidents - I had to pay a higher insurance rate in the 70s because of being a pilot. Apparently the underwriters consider pilots a bad risk..Just ordered an aprilia rsv4 1100rr 169bhp ;-) )

YLpilot
25th Mar 2019, 15:35
In comparison with Hamble CAT, in other famous academies, such as Perth AST or Oxford OAT also were so large amount of multi engine time ?
Congratulations with Your new Aprilia, Sir !

blind pew
25th Mar 2019, 20:23
My old one was nicked in France.. sadly crime rife as is the poverty which you dont see on the tele as the French are censoring the yellow vest protests especially the brutality of the establishment. The posh Paris restaurant was burnt out by the gendarmes firing tear gas grenades.
Oxford had the same flying requirements but the course took only 12 months iirc..so not so comprehensive. Dont think they had the chop rate as hamble.
Other schools had a requirement of 250 hours and self improvers 700 hours.

YLpilot
2nd Apr 2019, 16:53
Do You like Beechcraft Baron ? It was good for training flights ?

blind pew
2nd Apr 2019, 18:33
Except it flicked inverted during a clean stall..one of the wings was bent..as always cadets and instructors did naughty things sometimes badly.
Playing with the pitch levers downwind at Bournemouth during night flying was fun ..there was a BOAC captain trying to get our night flying stopped.

Offchocks
2nd Apr 2019, 20:39
This may sound like heresy to some, but I believe a lot of the in-depth knowledge that was required for the UK ATPL had little practical value in the real world. The only possible reason for it was to weed out those who did not have the mental capacity to pass the exams.

Georgeablelovehowindia
3rd Apr 2019, 08:13
This may sound like heresy to some, but I believe a lot of the in-depth knowledge that was required for the UK ATPL had little practical value in the real world. The only possible reason for it was to weed out those who did not have the mental capacity to pass the exams.

It's a very long time ago, but I remember none of it was beyond GCE 'O' level standard. There wasn't any calculus involved in the mathematics, for example.

Is anyone still able to draw a tephigram?

blind pew
3rd Apr 2019, 12:48
Yup but it was pure volume and depth..the mental calcs gave many sleepless nights.
funnily I was at the cruising association this morning and was briefed on Captain Cook and the venus expedition to calculate the size of the solar system using Jupiter's moons...so Nick Hoye's astro did come in handy as I understood the maths (geometry).
ps tephigrams...use them occasionally for paragliding.

Offchocks
3rd Apr 2019, 20:19
Is anyone still able to draw a tephigram?

Iím afraid not, the last time I saw a tephigram was 45 years ago.

YLpilot
4th Sep 2019, 10:50
In that times UK ATPL exams were only recognized in Britain or as nowadays common European when exams from UK are recognized for example in Germany & France ?

Specaircrew
10th Sep 2019, 19:37
I got offered a place at Hamble in 1973 but ended up joining the RAF instead. The upshot of this was that it took me 18 years longer to get to fly the VC10! ;-)

BEagle
11th Sep 2019, 09:38
After a couple of days of 'enjoying' life as a Junior Entry Flight Cadet at RAFC, I asked myself why on earth I hadn't applied for Hamble instead!

But then a Phantom arrived, beat seven shades of $hit out of the place and disappeared upwards in a vertical climb. Airlines? No thanks! But it was another 12 years before I flew the F-4!

Haraka
11th Sep 2019, 17:59
BEags, I was offered a "Free Transfer " to Hamble by the Towers' Commandant after 100 hrs on the JP in 1973 " I just have to pick up this 'phone".
I went Ground Branch instead as I just smelled a rat somewhere.
Oh , by the way, don't forget BoB day 15 th September is coming up, It is also the 50th anniverary of the Premiere of the film " Battle of Britain" , which we attended and which famously witnessed your initial on screen sighting of a certain lady's frillies in 1969 .
This momentous occasion of course was laid on in honour of another landmark in RAF History.

The day we were Commissioned!

blind pew
11th Sep 2019, 19:48
Was at it as well after winning tickets at our Southend flying clubs annual knees up.
club run by crooked scrap dealer with such low calibre instructors that I decided I could do better.
Flew today..sadly never fast jets but fun nonetheless
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/20190911_185157_6ab6ff9c9b8704f69bd429dbf71b1ea48683ee60.jpg
aircraft reflection in visor

THICKO
19th May 2020, 21:20
The only definite one was liberal studies but ex university cadets warned us to be careful as we might be watched wrt our political views which was apparently normal practice. Supposedly there were recruiters for the MI5 at all universities at that time. One of the first films we were shown was a German anti war film dubbed in English (all quiet on the western front). Worth watching imho.
I think that we probably just went into greater depth including the historical development for example the WW2 nav aids although some of them were still covered by the official secrets act which we had to sign.
As a side line, one of my mates had quit jet provosts after losing two on his course..said that the level of technical instruction was far inferior in the RAF.
We also had one from the Fleet Air Arm who commented about the huge number of fatal accidents from graduates of previous courses. (Many from car and motorcycle accidents - I had to pay a higher insurance rate in the 70s because of being a pilot. Apparently the underwriters consider pilots a bad risk..Just ordered an aprilia rsv4 1100rr 169bhp ;-) )

I was at CAT Hamble 1970-72 and did not have to sign the Official Secrets Act...

ExSp33db1rd
20th May 2020, 09:07
Talking about prejudice, previous inquiries revealed that some BOAC captains refused to socialize down route with the F/E's on the basis of class! Now thats one for the history books.

One of the so called North Atlantic Barons would tell the co-pilot - "Tell Mr. XXXX ( the Flt. Eng. ) that I want take off power" He wouldn't actually talk to his own F/Eng. under normal circumstances. Way above talking to lower mortals..

As a S/O - P.3.- Nav. I was admonished for calling out to the co-pilot " Hey, Bill, the Selcal's going" The N.Atl. Baron swung around and said " We do NOT use christian names on the flight deck, MR XXXXX. "

As has been mentioned, the few "notables" were the exception, I am glad I had the experience of flying with their more amenable colleagues, I learned a lot from them. Years later, when the new entrants, who were familiar with INS ( pre- GPS ! ) were joining, and I was then training them, one of my colleagues said " How different to when we started, some of the Captains couldn't fly an instrument let down to save their lives, but pop out of cloud too high, not lined up, not configured correctly, too fast, and we said -- the runway's over there, Sir ( never forgetting the Sir ! ) they would straighten up and fly a magnificent manual approach and landing, something ou present trainees are having difficulty with, tho' they can manage the INS better than us "

Why North Atlantic Baron ? BOAC crews flying East were accommodated in hotels at company expense, including hotel dining room meals, but any spending money, i.e. in the bar, was their own responsibility, but in North America hotels rarely had Full Board, so one had to buy meals at local cafes and coffee shops, so in North America US dollars were given on arrival. I recall my early days flying to New York, I would have the hotel room paid for, but was then given $10 a day for all my meals, and one could actually manage on that, and save a few dollars for the night in the bar. One of my first Captains led me to a place where we got a full cooked, English, breakfast for $1. and in the evening Tad's Steak House for a huge steak dinner for $1,19. As a result, the older WW II Captains ensured that their seniority and status ensured that they never had to risk spending their own money on Eastern routes, in places like Karachi, or Hong Kong, and only ever flew across the Atlantic.

I joined as an ex-RAF entrant, and was trained as a navigator on a 9 month ground school course run by BOAC, and then started my airborne navigator training on the Stratocruiser which had then started flying to Nigeria, Kano. Lagos etc. as a result of the then Dictator - sorry President - Jomo Nkomah (?) insisting that the only way BOAC was going continue flying to Nigeria was if they used their then most prestigious aircraft, the Strat. As the Strat, had previously only flown across the Atlantic, all the Captains were the "Barons" who now not only had to fly to darkest Africa, but spend their own money in the bar after flying. Quelle Horreur !!

Perhaps I should write a book ? Incidentally David Beatty wrote another interesting tale, Cone of Silence, on the bookshelf above me as I write this.

treadigraph
20th May 2020, 09:16
Perhaps I should write a book ?

I think you should - a lot of my recent book acquisitions have been military or civil air crew memories and I've yet to be disappointed!

By the way Jomo Nkoma sounds like a cross ("mash up" I believe the youngsters say) between Kenya and Zambia's first dict... er, Presidents!

blind pew
20th May 2020, 13:29
Thicko you must have overslept.
There were two probable reasons..one was working for a state enterprise which happened to service our embassies, (carried diplomatic mail in the cockpit to), the other was radio comms especially HF but I cannot remember which..I just signed and accepted it.
(I know it was an offence to divulge HF comms.)

DaveReidUK
20th May 2020, 17:11
as a result of the then Dictator - sorry President - Jomo Nkomah (?) insisting that the only way BOAC was going continue flying to Nigeria was if they used their then most prestigious aircraft, the Strat.

That doesn't quite ring true.

Nigeria didn't have its first President until 1963, following independence in 1960, and the Stratocruisers were long gone by then.

ExSp33db1rd
21st May 2020, 04:41
That doesn't quite ring true.

Try This ! Sorry about the Mash !

Kwame Nkrumah. Kwame Nkrumah PC (21 September 1909 – 27 April 1972) was a Ghanaian politician and revolutionary. He was the first Prime Minister and President of Ghana, having led the Gold Coast to independence from Britain in 1957

I can't even remember where my car keys are today, never mind who did what in changing African geo-politcal affairs after I left school, all long gone history now. Jomo wotisname - Kenyatta ? was involved with Kenya of course, and Joshua ? Nkomo with Zambia ! I self-corrected at 03.00 this morning !

Makes no difference to the reason that Stratocruisers started flying to West Africa as well as across the Atlantic, BOAC services variously stopped at Rome, Barcelona, Tripoli, to Kano, Lagos and Accra. It was Nkrumah that demanded that the Strat. replaced whatever had traditionally served West Africa up until then - Argonauts ( DC-4 ? ) - just before my time ( 1958) so don't remember too clearly now. . Argonauts, Connies, Yorks and the like had, or were just, being withdrawn in favour of DC-7C's, Britannias, Comets, and shortly afterwards the Comet IV, Boeing 707 and V.C.10 on BOAC routes.

I recall that during the ground school course we were taught about aircraft magnetism,and the effect it had on compass systems, by imagining a cargo load of soft iron rods had been loaded longitudinally and laterally across the aircraft. On my first airborne trip under training as a navigator on a Strat. my instructor suggested that as we weren't actually doing much navigation across Europe, the pilots following established airways with their NDB equipment, that I practice using the sextant by working out a few Compass checks using Astro Sun shots. The first result was rubbish, and I re-calculated everything and did it again,with a similar useless result. By this time my Instructor was beginning to wonder what he had been given to try to teach, and with the demanding Sahara Desert crossing to Kano coming up he brushed me aside to "Shown Me How To Do It" . His work produced the same rubbish. By now the pilots were commenting that their attempts to follow the published magnetic tracks were not doing very well, but nevertheless they managed to reach Tripoli without too much drama, tho' the skipper was not feeling too happy about the coming night sector across the Sahara in view of the varying compass readings and apparent incompetence of his navigators.

On the refuelling stop at Tripoli the navigator examined the aircraft holds, and came back and said "You're not going to believe this, but the holds are full of soft iron concrete reinforcing rods !! The Captain demanded that they be offloaded, to the objection of the Station Manager who said that they were required for a building project in Lagos, how was he supposed to get them there ? Don't care, said the Captain, put them on a camel if you like but they ain't coming on my aircraft. After that my Astro navigation improved, tho' I didn't have time for a meal as well for the whole of the seven hour sector !

I know that you're going to ask why the iron rods hadn't been questioned when the load sheet had been signed on departure ? I can't answer that.

In answer to an early query, initially, tho' "engaged" and paid, as a pilot, I was used as a "straight" navigator with no aircraft type rating and required to maintain my CPL renewal by flying Chipmunks owned by The Airways Aero Ass'n. a flying training outfit maintained by BOAC and BEA ( ?) based at Croydon, but having flown 5 trips on the Strat. I was then moved to the Brit. 312 to complete my training, and having gained the Flt.Nav. Licence I then continued flying as Nav. only on the East African routes, Kenya, Uganda etc. and it was only after a year of that was I "allowed" to be sent back to the training unit to be indoctrinated into navigating the dangerous Atlantic route, for which I eventually earned an Atlantic Ops. Cert as a Brit 312, navigator. Big Deal !

3 years after first joining, and having spent all that time only navigating in one form or another, I was moved to the Boeing 707, initially as S/O Nav / P.3, i.e. I completed the necessary handling of the 707 to be awarded a CAA type rating, but BOAC only issued me with a restricted Ops. Cert. which meant that I could fulfil the P.3. position, e.g. Jump Seat monitoring etc. but not fly as co-pilot,even tho' from a CAA perspective I was "legal" to do that with my CPL. but after a 3 month posting to Honolulu in this position, followed by more handling training, I was given a full Ops. Cert as a co-pilot on the 707, promoted to F/O, and after that flew every trip as either the Nav. or the co-pilot, the decision as to which was usually by mutual agreement between myself and the other equally dual qualified F/O and the Captain. During this time I became a Navigator instructor, and in contrast to my first seven hour crossing of the Sahara with no time for a meal, on occasions when I might be navigating without a student, I might navigate from New York to London and fulfil the requirement to log an Astro fix every 30 minutes, eat dinner and finish a paperback that I might have bought leaving JFK. at the same time. It's only hands on experience, and although I couldn't do it now I'd love to be given the chance ! A local student pilot recently asked "What was a sextant " as he tore his eyes away from his Smartphone for a few seconds. One could weep.

I gained a Command on the Boeing 707 16 years after joining, a 747 Command 2 years later, and for personal reasons accepted Severance at age 48, some 7 years before the then compulsory retirement age of 55,and finished my professional career at age 60 as a 747 pilot instructor with SIA. I have just decided to hand in my NZ Microlight Instructors rating, tho' I still fly the beasts. ( not really microlights, LSA's in USA speak )

Would I do it all again ? In a heartbeat, probably start a bit sooner, and have a better Seniority position !

I think you should - a lot of my recent book acquisitions have been military or civil air crew memories and I've yet to be disappointed!

Not sure, many have and still are, and I think it is a limited audience ?

Doctor Cruces
21st May 2020, 16:29
Michael Riley's "A Concorde In My Toybox" tells much about BEA and BOAC training. A very good read.