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Capt Wally
18th Sep 2008, 14:16
Tonight whilst standing out on the apron at EN I & two others witnessed Philippine Airlines sliding on down the loc at EN for the usual right base rwy 34 at Tulla, only this time he was damn LOW ! Normally they are around 2000 ft or so passing this particular point not this guy call it between 500 to a 1000 ft! Boeing 76 or twin Airbus with awfully big undercarriage doors, why big? 'cause we felt we could almost reach out & touch 'em !
He even cut the corner big time & it appeared that he either climbed to align with the vasi at Tulla or at least levelled off so as to not remove the TV aerials over certain houses!! I've seen some dumb things over the years at Tulla mostly with foreign airlines this one still makes me wonder about some of their flying abilities.
In all the years I've watched the heavies come down via sheed to Tulla that would have to be one of the lowest. The other two watching where pilots also so his height wasn't just a wild stab in the dark by me alone.
Now we'll get a hell of a response from the Close En airport action group if anyone of them where within ear shot of this low flying big bird!


CW

haughtney1
18th Sep 2008, 15:28
Foreign Airlines don't have the monopoly on doing dumb things:}

I've witnessed QF a couple of times at JFK doing stuff that was at the very least questionable. Having said that, I've noticed that it tends to be airlines from certain areas of asia that keep cropping up when it come to certain errors in judgement.

Wiley
18th Sep 2008, 16:38
Those of us who are of a certain age will remember the Garuda 74 that did the (then published) "Essendon 26 LLZR to land 34 Tulla"... but couldn't resist the lure of the Essendon 26 approach lights. I understand he reached 300'agl on short finals to 26 before someone the frantic calls from ATC permeated through to those in the cockpit.

Taildragger67
18th Sep 2008, 17:03
Those of us who are of a certain age will remember the Garuda 74

I seem to remember two such incidents in fairly quick succession.

Am I now "of a certain age"? :{

Cunning_Stunt
18th Sep 2008, 21:10
Actually, the first one involving Garuda had them not approaching 26 at Essendon but 35. Radar vectored initially to the south of Essendon for 34 at Melb but lined up on 35 at Essendon. Mate of mine was wandering out to preflight an aircraft at Air Ambulance very early one morning and saw the a/c commence missed approach from around 300 feet. Quite dramatic. I witnessed another one less than a year later. Not as dramatic though. He lined up on 35 and then peeled off around 1500 feet to align with 34 at Melb.

Maggott17
18th Sep 2008, 22:14
Those of us who are of a certain age will remember the Garuda 74 that did the (then published) "Essendon 26 LLZR to land 34 Tulla"... but couldn't resist the lure of the Essendon 26 approach lights. I understand he reached 300'agl on short finals to 26 before someone the frantic calls from ATC permeated through to those in the cockpit.

But it was a RAAF B707 that stopped turbo jet PILS at Essendon just a few weeks later. The RAAF were doing the 26 ILS for praccy.

framer
18th Sep 2008, 22:50
Someone local correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Phillipines 76 have most likely been on a Warren 9 arrival that has a min height of 2500ft at EN ? Or do they sometimes wave that restriction? or vector you in along similar track with no height restrictions?
Cheers.

Capt Wally
18th Sep 2008, 22:58
The Garuda event the one via rwy 35 at EN was probably the most spectactular, I remember it well. Some did the sums on that possible ldg to find out that it would have all going well pulled up in the avail rwy (just) but then what?. Cracked rwy no doubt, & to get the big bird out of there?? Would have been interesting for sure
Watching the same Tull rwy 34 app this morning the A/C are nice & high in the same spot as last nights crazy plane, I wonder if the twr boys where watching the big bird dissapear behind the EN hangers?

CW

blueloo
19th Sep 2008, 00:31
Anyone notice how many 3rd world countries have fairly (relatively speaking) small airports with ILS's on all their runways? Yet Australia can't manage this at all their major airports......

framer
19th Sep 2008, 01:01
I have noticed that bluloo, always amazes me when you have to do a VOR into melbourne or even that they don't have dme associated with the ILS half the time.

Casper
19th Sep 2008, 01:13
Anyone notice how many 3rd world countries have fairly (relatively speaking) small airports with ILS's on all their runways? Yet Australia can't manage this at all their major airports......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In some SE Asian countries, this facility has been paid for with Australian foreign aid!

3 Holer
19th Sep 2008, 02:10
"... but couldn't resist the lure of the Essendon 26 approach lights.

Wiley, a classic case of perception versus reality. It can happen to anyone.

Aircraft cleared for visual approach R/W 25L at FRA. At 10 miles PNF reported runway lights in sight. Aircraft was cleared to land. At 5 miles PF advised LLZ on his side was still full scale deflection left. PNF confirmed same on his. Just as PNF about to query tower on the serviceability of 25L ILS, runway lights ahead disappeared and new runway lights out to the left appeared !

YES, the tower had turned off the wrong runway lights and the crew visually lined up on 25R without checking their ILS indications.(SOPs for this airline required ILS to be tuned to approach runway even on visual approaches)

Human Factors / CRM courses should never be trivialised !

Capt Wally
19th Sep 2008, 02:29
'3 holer' that's a good point in question. I guess human perception is the hardest thing to over come & believe something that you expect not to be the normal.
Many a case has been shown that A/C can & do line up on not only the wrong rwy but not a rwy at all! The eyes our most powerful tool in external decison making are perhaps the most fooled, I know i've been fooled by them before ( failed marriage showed that but afterall I am a pilot!:E). Pilots the world over will follow something blindly because they want it so bad (again expectations & repitition) that such events as you stated above although seem obvious after the event are all but ignored 'till sometimes too late.
This game keeps us on our toes, I like that:ok:



CW

tinpis
19th Sep 2008, 02:48
Anyone notice how many 3rd world countries have fairly (relatively speaking) small airports with ILS's on all their runways? Yet Australia can't manage this at all their major airports......


Anything that can be done by the powers that be to make aviation in Australia mysterious and difficult, will be strictly adhered to.

Capt Wally
19th Sep 2008, 04:06
'tinpis' if it wasn't so serious it would be funny!

Imagine this. PAL (as the one in discussion hereor any operator for that matter) crashes short of rwy 34 ML in visual conditions due to a miss managed stable app for Eg. after being cleared for a visual app from sheed ( a waypoint along En's rwy 26 LOC) . What would our rule makers do/say to such an event? As in the past fix the problem by way of creating an ILS for rwy 34 maybe but not until we see a theoretical scenary as above. We see it all the time, somebody dies due poor conditions rds etc. & the rule makers fix it, AFTER!



CW

What The
19th Sep 2008, 04:38
If you cannot fly a visual approach you do not belong in any aeroplane let alone a jet.

By George
19th Sep 2008, 06:10
One of the problems with some of the so called 'foreign' airlines is the size of their networks. I work with a company serving 68 destinations around the world. Recency is based on 'Zones', ie one trip to the States requalifies you for all of the USA. The end result is you become 'A Jack of all Trades, Master of None'. There is no excuse for failing to understand what is required but you are vulnerable to lack of local knowledge and it is easy to make a mistake especially if tired. For example I get a MEL trip, on average, once every two years. As an Aussie well versed with MEL it might be the unusual nature of the EN arrival that needs more warnings on the chart or from ATC that needs fixing. There have been too many making the same mistake over the years. It is not completely fair to thump the 'foreigners'. (some of them are very nice chaps).

Jabawocky
19th Sep 2008, 06:30
Some foreigners almost landed a Jet on the road in Mackay one night many years ago!:uhoh:

Bloody foreigners.....from Victoria no doubt!:}

satos
19th Sep 2008, 07:19
Actually, the first one involving Garuda had them not approaching 26 at Essendon but 35. Radar vectored initially to the south of Essendon for 34 at Melb but lined up on 35 at Essendon. Mate of mine was wandering out to preflight an aircraft at Air Ambulance very early one morning and saw the a/c commence missed approach from around 300 feet. Quite dramatic.
Someone can correct me on this,but didn't tulla introduce the flashing high intensity white strobe lights at the southern end of 34 shortly after this incident to stop international pilots from confusing essendon with tulla.

Cunning_Stunt
19th Sep 2008, 08:24
Correct,satos.

man on the ground
19th Sep 2008, 10:01
The Garuda event the one via rwy 35 at EN was probably the most spectactular, I remember it well. Some did the sums on that possible ldg to find out that it would have all going well pulled up in the avail rwy (just) but then what?

A set of "steps" driving down the Tulla freeway, otherwise "mind that first step when you get off" :E

maui
19th Sep 2008, 11:08
And Jabba, Don't forget those bloody foreigners that tried to land a Viscount on the Anzac Hwy. := Once again those mongrel Victorian foreigners.

M

Taildragger67
19th Sep 2008, 11:22
Someone local correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the Phillipines 76

I suspect would've been a Philippines A330 (sorry, that's just "30" in Qantas-speak, apparently... )

Actually there was a rash of wrong-airport arrivals a few years ago in Europe - eg. an EZY or RYA (operated by another) dropping into a mil strip near Derry.

Wiley
19th Sep 2008, 12:19
If you cannot fly a visual approach you do not belong in any aeroplane let alone a jetIt might be best if you didn't learn how many modern 'jet jocks' would struggle mightily if asked to fly a visual approach. Not because they're lesser pilots than pilots of a bygone age, but because they are forbidden to practise them. "Highest levelf automation at all times" is the new rule in many places.

What The
19th Sep 2008, 12:24
Wouldn't want to be in the back of one if it all turned to S*** then eh!

Wiley
19th Sep 2008, 14:18
The same thought has occurred to more than a few of us who find this 'roole' a little short-sighted. 'What the..'.

HotDog
20th Sep 2008, 01:15
Those of a certain age might remeber a QF 707 landing on 02 at Changi instead of 02 at Paya Lebar in the sixties.:E

Ken Borough
20th Sep 2008, 01:30
And also recall a Qantas 70 trying to land at Orange County (John Wayne) airport instead of Los Angeles.:O

Captain Sherm
20th Sep 2008, 02:12
Not to mention the QF 737 that tried to land at BNE in the middle of a galactic thunderstorm.....it's not just "foreigners" that stuff up is it?

hei yu
20th Sep 2008, 02:23
Re the QF707 at Changi. They wouldn't let him depart until he'd given them a landing weight so that they could calculate the landing charge!

Capt Claret
20th Sep 2008, 03:03
Or the 73 that landed at DRW and stopped BEFORE the displaced threshold, circa '95.

Didn't LBJ arrive in Australia and land in his presidential 747 at Essendon for Holt's funeral???? Tulla hadn't been finished at the time.

I don't think it's just Victorians with a mortgage on lining up on the HWY at Mackay.

Capt Wally
20th Sep 2008, 03:11
'CC' yes LBJ did lad at EN but it was in a B707 OCT 1966 I believe, no 747's around at that stage. I believe it even cracked the rwy, but that's what I heard elsewhere.

We`all make mistakes that's for sure more dangerous with with SP ops as there is nobody to say hey WTF!! Two crew is far safer in that regard but they still act as though they are SP anyway at times.


CW

ACMS
20th Sep 2008, 03:17
So why didn't Mel App see his mode c alt readout and say something?

What about En twr? or even Mel twr? Did they do anything?

Big difference between 2,000' and 500'.

ACMS
20th Sep 2008, 03:22
Capt Wally. don't forget that YOU can file an incident report on this if you wish. Then it might get investigated. I'm sure the crew involved didn't file one.

Capt Wally
20th Sep 2008, 03:27
'ACMS' trust me this guy WAS very low, I only posted the original thread from a person (with 2 wittneses) standing on the ground looking up using the eyeball MK1 only, but lets just say that things are happening so relax:)



CW

Hempy
20th Sep 2008, 03:34
Actually, the first one involving Garuda had them not approaching 26 at Essendon but 35. Radar vectored initially to the south of Essendon for 34 at Melb but lined up on 35 at Essendon.

And hence now you get "report the R34 strobes in sight"

maui
20th Sep 2008, 05:06
And there was a case of those foreign pooftas from BNE who tried to modify the approach lights on Tulla 27, with a DC9.

Yep,Ya gotta love those foreign pilots! Some of them are real Wally's

Maui

ACMS
20th Sep 2008, 05:26
Hey I'm on your side Capt Wally :ok:

I'm sure you are 100% correct, just wondered if ATC said anything to them at the time and if ATC filed a report about it.

fourgolds
20th Sep 2008, 05:35
Captain Wally. Your insinuation about foreign airlines smacks of arrogance.
We all wish that one day that we could be as good as you. You also insult fellow Australians when they see your xenophobic attitude towards other " not so good foreign operators" especially those of us that have had the privelage of operating in a multi cultural enviroment.

If you were just innocently stating what happened then fair dinkum.

fourgolds
20th Sep 2008, 05:37
Stop Press
Captain Wally , i see the thread is renamed " how low can you go"
Thats more like it !!!!!

Cheers Mate.

TeHoroto
20th Sep 2008, 05:51
My first 20 years of airline flying have obviously been spent in ignorant bliss. I now discover that because I didn't learn the trade in Australia I'm an incompetant foreigner git. With this newly obtained information I guess i will spend the next 20 years of my airline career with an inferiority complex and chip on my shoulder.

HotDog
20th Sep 2008, 11:43
Don't worry mate, you have plenty of company with the rest of the world's licensed aircraft maintenance engineers.:rolleyes:

Capt Wally
20th Sep 2008, 22:23
hey I re-named the thread to be 'politically correct', heavens knows there are some sensitive creatures out there:) Look if you fly in OZ skies long enough listening to the R/T of some of our 'cousins' from OS you don't have to be a rocket scientist to hear (& in this case see) that SOME over seas operators are less than confident when it comes to procedures. I believe ATC often treat these 'foreigners' with kit gloves 'cause they simply don't trust them to follow or act out certain requests from ATC.
My comments on PAL's low app into Tulla the other night could very well have been another foreign job the fact that it was PAL is actually irrelevant. In hindsight perhaps I should not have mentioned the Co's name but certain operators (& to me at least appear to be 'foreign') seem to attract attention more than others for various reasons.
So 'fourgolds' lets hope that you & the 'other' person in here are now more content.:)
At the end of the day this thread will either die off or be closed by the Mod/s but I felt it was a good story to perhaps bring it to the attention of others in here to show that having the lattest technology & professional training (CFIT is the perfect Eg. of this) doesn't mean you get it right every time! It was afterall just an observation but it had potential disastrous consequences.


CW


CW

PA-28-180
21st Sep 2008, 01:15
Regarding "3rd world airports having ILS....", at RPLL (Manila International) the glide slope has been U/S for about 500 years....its a vor/dme approach now.
Regarding PAL...a few months ago, I posted a wake turbulence event that I witnessed...and it was ignominiously transferred to the spotters forum! :ugh:
There was a PAL 744 closely following either a KAL or KLM A330. What caught my attention was the extremely short interval between the two....around 2 miles, and the 744 was NOT flying a steeper glide slope to stay above the preceeding aircrafts wake. Weather was CAVU at the time with light/variable winds. On short final, at approximately 500 AGL, I saw the 744 roll 25 degrees to the right and then repeat the roll to the left. Pilot hit TOGA and was obviously shaken up as he began a LEFT turnout, then corrected with a right turnout for a right downwind to try again. When he passed over me, he was at 8-1,000 AGL and STILL had full power set.
I agree with whoever said that it's a case of "use full automatics at all times" that lead to problems like this. I've spoken to several PAL long haul pilots who told me that they are only allowed to hand fly the jet at 1000AGL and below. Doesn't give them a whole lot of practice in handling the jet now, does it. I don't mean to 'pick on' PAL, as I believe that many carriers have this policy (?). I also agree that this is a short sighted policy....as in, what the heck do they do when the automatics go t1ts up?? :eek:

aussiegal
21st Sep 2008, 08:55
To answer some of the questions raised about PAL over EN, yes the tower did notice and issue not only an initial low altitude alert but when that had no effect the acft was asked if he had the strobes in sight (yes), that he had two nm to run to touchdown and to track for a right base rwy 34 (rather than direct to threshold), and yes a report was put in and the pilot was asked by the tower to call approach to discuss the situation.

Capt Wally
21st Sep 2008, 22:50
tnxs 'aussiegal' for setting the record straigt I knew such goings on had to have been acted upon but I didn't want to say as much here as I am only a pleb on the ground:ok: I knew you guys/gals would have seen it, you would have to be death dumb & blind not to have!:ooh:

Must get up to the twr some day, been almost 30 yrs since I last was there! how sad is that:{


CW