GF late roster

[downNOgreens]

Is it me or is GF in the habit of finding any excuse for issuing rosters late...again? Apart from BLR, what does this have to do with pilots since only the cabin crew were immorally deprived of a decent India night stop after a long duty?

[brassplate]

not just you. it's them.

[ironbutt57]

Why don't those who criticise walk a mile in the shoes of the folks in crew planning before jumping all over them, i sure there are obstacles they face, we have no knowledge or understanding of...the India turnaround experiment left us exposed to possible delays, cancellations, and safety issues regarding crew fatigue, and at least that (the most important) issue has been realised and dealt with...now....do we get paid "over 75hrs" overtime in a roster period, or a calendar month??

[Sal-e]

I tend to agree with both sides of the fence.
On one hand, we have the planners who have to deal with what they've got. Factor in schedule changes, pressures from the bean counters, planes gone tech, inadequate standbys, sick and tired pilots, and it's a hell of a balancing act.
On the other hand are us, the pilots. Since we spearhead the whole operation, we bear the full physical brunt of it all.
It is probably a lack of foresight and anticipation of changes and needs on GF's part in the end. And this makes everyones job infinitely more difficult.

[Cam32]

The problems with crewing have come for lack of prior planning. They add aircraft then think about employing pilots. All the while there is retirements and people leaving to look for greener grass.

Bit of a cycle, if the sleep deprived crew can't have a life as well as a job, then they leave.

Which comes back to the lack of prior planning.

Crewing can only work with the cards they are handed. We were at least 20 pilots short at the start of the month (I am told) The problem won't fix itself buy the end of the month without someone having put a plan into action months ago. (they did not!!)

There is still no real excuse for the consistently late rosters. I don't think I have had a single one on time. They need to get ahead of the game instead of just playing catch up and keeping us in the dark until 3 days before the new roster.

I'm sure the only reason AIMS can't do the rostering is because it would require the correct amount of crews for the number of aircraft and flights. Computers don't lie. Data in data out.

Crewing and GF flights are only functioning on the 'good will' of crew, at the expense of their free time/leave. :zzz:

[zero CRM]

Dear All,

November Roster will be published late due to arrival of A319.


Dear All,

December Roster will be published late due to arrival of Holiday season.

[downNOgreens]

And the TOP TEN reasons why the roster is late again are:..(drum roll)...?

[brassplate]

10........forgot because sugar level's a bit low due to Ramadhan fasting.

[SubsonicMortal]

It is probably a lack of foresight and anticipation of changes and needs on GF's part in the end. And this makes everyones job infinitely more difficult - Sal-e

Very nicely summed up, period.

As hard as I try to understand their reasons, I still find it impossible to believe that every excuse they communicate to us for the late publishing, is reason enough for us to be inconvenienced. They have been around for over half a century and have all the fancy tools and machines to assist them, yet they can't get it right. I'm blunt and call this incompetent. Every other major airline can get it right, WHY NOT US?

As pilots, we are expected to have an output of 100% but the input and tools we get to work with leave a lot to be desired for.

[ironbutt57]

Every other airline??? Look at the "end of month" posts here on Pprune.."Etihad late rosters" "EK late rosters"..I'm not defending anybody gents, but just be accurate pls...remember these folks are subject to the whim of the commercial dept, who have other pressures as well..

p.s. We always get paid on time :ok:

[Trader]

Never had a late roster at EK in the last year. One of the joys of EK is their rather excellent rostering..and REAL bidding.

GF has no excuse. Though, to be fair, I have a feeling it has more to do with a messed up commercial dept and late decisions than with the rostering guys.....could be wrong though.

AIMS could do a proper bid - but the 'connected' guys in the airline would lose their favourite flights. And the An's et el would never have that now would they :)

[zero CRM]

How on earth reinstating A320 night stops for cabin crew can effect the roster for A320/330/340 flight deck roster:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Panama Jack]

I like the way you sum it up, SubsonicMortal.

However, after a while I get a little apathetic about the whole rostering process. The September schedule, as I recall, was delayed because of the roll-out of the Bahrain CAA ANTR-OPS limitations, even though the Company had fully expected this to happen months ago.

After the publication of any rosters, there are typically so many roster changes that by the end of the month 50% of the month's schedule has changed.

Somehow, I suspect ZeroCRM's expected excuses may prove to be prophetic.

At the end of the day, all I really care about is two things. 1) Did I get my request and, 2) what are my rostered days off? And I like to know this as soon as possible so I can plan my life away from work.

[tbaylx]

Every other airline??? Look at the "end of month" posts here on Pprune.."Etihad late rosters" "EK late rosters"..I'm not defending anybody gents, but just be accurate pls...remember these folks are subject to the whim of the commercial dept, who have other pressures as well..

p.s. We always get paid on time

GF has had rostering issues for a longggggg time now, and speaking to guys who used to be in the department it was more often than not commercial changing flights last minute requiring everything to be done over again. Oh yeah and it's all done by hand with little regard to aims. You really can't run a medium sized airline like that, sooner or later you need to computerize it and maintain the proper number of crews or lifestyle really suffers.

EK may not be perfect but rostering is one of the good points here...almost always ontime, few if any changes once published and a decent system of rotating seniority that allows everyone a shot at top bid once every few months. It ain't perfect but its light years ahead of anything i ever had at GF.

[brassplate]

9.............the dog ate it

[downNOgreens]

Panama Jack and ironbutt57 have good points.

Why fuss over rosters when they are subject to change half the time?
Nice to know early so we can plan our lives outside work:ok:
We never get paid late.:DThe point is as SubsonicMortal put it.

"As hard as I try to understand their reasons, I still find it impossible to believe that every excuse they communicate to us for the late publishing, is reason enough for us to be inconvenienced."

While our planners have predictable work times, weekends, days off etc etc to plan their lives, we are left guessing whether in the next month, we are able to attend:
a social engagement or family gathering or Eid or Christmas or a childs/friends/wifes/husbands birthday or an anniversary or beers with friends or a bbq or a fishing trip or a night out or.....etc etc etc etc.

As pilots, we do not have the luxury of looking at the calendar at any given week or month and guarantee participating in an event.
The least that the rostering department can do for us is to give us an early 28 day peak into our future. If they don't understand the importance of the roster to us, simply put, IT IS OUR LIFE!

[repapips]

Amen to that! DownNOgreens!

[tmax]

While our planners have predictable work times, weekends, days off etc etc to plan their lives, we are left guessing whether in the next month, we are able to attend:
a social engagement or family gathering or Eid or Christmas or a childs/friends/wifes/husbands birthday or an anniversary or beers with friends or a bbq or a fishing trip or a night out or.....etc etc etc etc.

Half of what you wrote and think big guy is HARAM hehe!!!!! beer?birthday? bbq?gathering?
AIMS can do a great job if they let it alone!
AIMS is capable to give night flights during RAMADAN to our friends that fasting and give days off during Christmas for our friends that do not fast! it is all programming!!
they have to overcome favorism and let AIMS to create blocks and distribute equal rosters for everyboby!! if that happened bidding is possible straight away! they bought the bidding system with the initially package but it is still disabled!All it is required to enable it and provide training and guidelines to all concerned!! it might cost some $$$ but?????????
Istead there is an idiot that plans crew to a max FDP and also plans differently FD and CC which resullts that you starting any block and you have to brief ,meet 2 different CC in a day 4 sector trip, or 4 different CC on a 3 days trip!
As an example:
You are rostered to do a DOH BAH 2 sector block and your FO comes from a previous AUH BAH and has to meet u in a 50 min turnaround and the CC come from a LCA BAH and had to do the same!! all planned without normal and usuall delays to a max FDP!!
Same time we spend money and effort for CRM-joint exercises emphasizing briefings ,teamwork ,fatigue,commercial appearance,safety......etc
we work together but we do not rest together!!

[Propellor]

Half the woes stem from the fact that the AIMS in GF does not have the modules for bidding and for equalisation - those were deemed expensive dispensibles when the last management (under H.A.) bought the system. Since then, no one wants to get the modules as they are an additional expense. Besides, there is a lot of controversy, with Sabre trying to push the sale of its own system, etc.

If the blocks are tough - it is a reflection of the pressure on the rostering lot to make the maximum utilization. The rostering staff has no choice but to oblige the top management, and the Managers are too busy flying the line, or on leave or attending to dubious obligations (like helping their buddies or countrymen become instructors), or ferrying planes (that any line pilot can do and ought to do) to bother about what is happening on the line, and make a call for better conditions.

Wait and watch - the situation will worsen with the arrival of the A319s, and the possible departure of some Omanis (If Sal-e's prediction takes shape).

[Panama Jack]

Yup, I know of cabin crew who have their rosters since early yesterday. Today as of the close of business, none for flight deck crew yet. But of course, we were told not to expect it til the 25th. :hmm:

[zero CRM]

Eid in 4 days time and if many of us still dont know wether we are celebrating Eid or flying some where then it proves only one thing that we have got some really incompetent staff running the crew planning department.

[polarus]

Guys Seriously!!!

Look back x amount of years with GF and has anything really changed? These were the same BS I dealt with 3 years ago under hogie. The bored, dosey and naf and guess what ... nothing changes.

You guys are getting screwed and you are your own worst enemies.

STOP THE MADNESS!!!

ps ... everything will be fine soon ... enshallah!

[brassplate]

what a joke that the f/a's get their rosters first since all the fracas had been about them.
now waiting for all locals to go sick during eid while my roster gets chopped and changed HOURLY.
i wonder what will happen if expats go sick as well. will there be a bidding system on who gets priority sick leaves? will it be based on seniority or just....arab-ness? i think i will fall ill....just to find out.

[DesertHawk]

well the rostering has gotten a lot worse since AA has taken over. we are short but the attitude of "let's get them for what we can" has taken over in the pink palace for short term hopefully. GF is a good place but the lack of control is seriously concerning. Let's hope in the future they can get it together. These late rosters are getting ridiculous!!!!!

[ironbutt57]

The objective was to maximize the crew utilization..unfortunately this had some undesireable side effects which were felt by us and the operation as a whole. Hopefully over the next couple months the blocks will be reconstructed allowing a smoother operation, and more desireable environment for the crews...320 in particular

[Yo767]

Hopefully over the next couple months the blocks will be reconstructed allowing a smoother operation

Smooth operatoooooor, smooooooooooth operator!

Wake up Ironbutt, you are dreaming.

AA and his team only react to one thingh: crew sickness rate. They don't care about line feed back or common sense. It is sad but it is our only way to communicate with them. They pack the roster to the legal limit and wait to see the sickness rate to plan for the following month.

Smoooooooooooooth operator!

[Che Guevara]

Is it true that AA is getting the boot?

[DesertHawk]

IB i think u are dreaming. Just thank Allah the Chief threw a hissy fit over 12hr BKK and Indian turns for the crew. Just makes me wonder hwo they got in the roster withour being approved by anyone other than AA. The real problem in the theology of how the department is run. Seems to me they are just packing things in and hoping it works with no real regard for crew safety or common sense. Just got of phone with a friend going out this morning after he arrived yesterday late morning from an all nighter. To me this seems typical. Anyways I am glad we are all on here again complaining about somehting got to quiet for a while :)lol

[Sal-e]

I'm normally quite a keen worker but I must say that my last block was a bit on the rough side.
First day, BAH-KRT-BAH-KWI, minimum rest, next day KWI-BAH-DEL-BAH. That's sixteen and a half hours in two days! As much as I prepared for this block, there was nothing to prevent fatigue set in.
I hope IB57 is right that this does not continue on it's present course.

[Che Guevara]

Sal-e
That is tough...still trying to figure why they gave you a break in Kuwait..:ugh:

Glad you survived amigo.

[40&80]

Interested to know if Ironbutt flys a full months line roster for several years or has retired hurt into the simulator feather bed....that is what used to happen when seniors could not hack the line flying in my time their....refreshed they then got a job eastwards.
Gf has been running short of at least 11 crews to make a legal roster to my knowledge since 1977..Gf rosters are dependent on pilots selling leave/working on rest days/and extending duty/and reduceing rests to help out....
We swallowed this sob story and cooperated for 25plus years and still it is a mess for you guys...things did not get better.
I hope you do not enjoy your Rad Gammage moment and treatment which will follow...a serious health event is the sure result of this abuse.
If I had my time over again at GF I would never fly on my days off and work the roster to the selfish max like the As are said to now do...they are smart..best command decision I ever made was not to sell leave it probably saved my life when my rostering heart attack arrived...just enough energy remained in my tank to survive. I joined on the same day as Rad we both worked our butts off...he hung around a few more years than me and paid a higher price.
If you ask a cardio doctor like I did in 1988 to look at your GF roster he will tell you to retire at 40 if you want to make 70+
Your rosters today are considerably more intense than Rads and mine were.
Glad to read Ironbutt has made it into the sim for a well earned rest and does not fly on his days off...he is smarter than we were.

[ironbutt57]

I think AA and the crew had a long row to hoe, and responded in kind..attempting to save money on hotels maximize crew utilization...unfortunately due to the nature of our operation, and flight timings, one small hiccup let to service reliability problems...making the potential savings unworkable..there appears to be a lack of understanding of human factors by some there as well...hopefully it's sorted
and yes...hail to the chief for putting the brakes on an otherwise unteneble situation...

[ironbutt57]

I do a combination of both, not enough flying I'm afraid..but have been there done that with the night turns, 4 sectors with the last being into a cat-c airport.(no, I'm not a "seagull" don't have to throw a rock at me to make me fly)..they don't ring me on days off..it's a lost cause for them:ok:..not that I'm un cooperative in spirit..but just relish my days off..:ok:

Let's not forget that AA himself was very much in favor of purchasing the additional AIMS modules necessary to allow a preferential bidding/equalization system to be put in place...it may have well saved crewing costs many times more than it's own cost...

[sondbird101]

who is this AA? You work to the edge of legality and the system breaks when the system hiccups. Usually a proper planning department has a cost analysis and determines that sickness, disruptions, fatigue are a clear sign that more money is being spent in other areas in the company that are in direct relationships to the crew welfare. Any incident and the house of cards in that place will fall. Some unlucky driver, crew and pax pay the price at best with losing their career. The other scenario is unthinkable.§

[zero CRM]

well Guys line is out so see you all on the same thread before next line is published.

[Cam32]

I have version 1.0 of the latest roster, it almost looks well balanced. We will see at version 7.0 or 8.0 how it looks for the month.

Good luck to all.

Better late than never. :ok:

[Sal-e]

I've got unrequested leave rostered mid-month onwards. I don't even have leave in the bank!
Are they allowed to do that?

[ironbutt57]

Not that I'm aware of, the fleet manager can clear that up..or at least shed some light on why it's there..

[Che Guevara]

Hi IB
I'm afraid your chief has got to do a little better than this...I saw a friend's roster that had a trip that squeezed in 23hrs and 20mins in under 37 hrs.:eek:
Anybody able to top this?

[Dessert Aviator]

already on version two 0.2. departure delayed into the early hours tomorrow. As I'm pushing the envelope age wise these delays and all through the night flights will start taking there toll. I should heed 40 & 80's warning.:sad:

[Mephistopheles]

"hail to the chief for putting the brakes on an otherwise untenable situation..."
What? You must be kidding? The 2 guys at the top Mr NS & Mr CC both were very happy & in fact were active in allowing Mr AA to plan India turn arounds for the c/crew & now you're giving them credit for stopping it! I guess their decision has nothing to do with all the c/crew resignations? But let's look on the bright side at least 1 of them is leaving soon.

[brassplate]

roster changes already...a day after getting the next line. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!! the damn thing hasn't even started yet. at this rate, cam32 might be right. version 8 by weeks end!