Hong Kong Airlines B737-800 tries to take off from Taxiway in HKG

[AAIGUY]

This needs a new thread so everyone can see it.

Public safety is literally at risk at this point
----------------------------------------

It would seem this past weekend, an HKA plane doing a early morning departure from HKIA to Korea mistook the taxi way as the runway, and attempted take off

They got about 500 meters down the taxiway prior to stopping with ATC yelling at them they were indeed NOT on the runway.

(thank go for ground radar in HKG).

Since then, a memo has been circulated internally stressing the importance of "ensuring you are on a runway,prior to takeoff".

The Captain, is from down south, around the same area as those Singaporeans who did the same thing in TPE, with more fatal results.

FO, South America.

CLOWNS. The whole lot.

[Hoofharted]

The issue now is what are the CAD going to do about it? We all know about it, no doubt HKA will try to hush it up, where is the CAD?

[AAIGUY]

Few more facts..

Flight in question was HX2692 from Hong Kong to Cheong Ju, Korea
Scheduled Departure time was 0400.

[AGNES]

About 5 years ago, another operator also tried to take off from taxiway, it was stopped fortunately.Normally, the CAD will write to the operator concerned stating what had happened and normally, the operator concerned will reply stating that they will look into the matter, etc, etc, etc.

[float flyer]

How about some professional dignity?

Think about how you would feel if you were in any of these guy's shoes before you go ratting on someone!

There is no excuse for what happened, but do you all really need to "out" the individuals involved?

I'll leave you with this thought:

"How would you feel if it was you, and you were being attacked like this?":ugh:

[JoeShmoe]

If I did something like that I'd have to seriously consider if I was the right man for the job.

Some incidents are "but for the grace of God go I" but others like this one absolutely have no excuse.

IMHO!!

[AAIGUY]

No one "ratted" any one out.. I have names (most people do).. I could post the roster.

I won't.

But this isn't ratting anyone out.. this is truely a very serious incident.

and without changes in HKA's managment the next "incident" is coming around the corner shortly.


** and had I done it, I would not be employed today. Any airline worth anything at all would not sweep this up, but address it.**

[badairsucker]

I'll leave you with this thought:

"How would you feel if it was you, and you were being attacked like this?


How would you feel if your family was on this flight and you found out this had happened before but covered up??????


These type of incidents need to be bought to the public's/industries attention IMHO.

[Hoofharted]

"How would you feel if it was you, and you were being attacked like this?"

And there-in lies the entire problem. Much better to "save face" than to have an honest and open discussion about a potentially DEADLY event. Damn the passengers and their families.........just save face.

Next thing the accusations will be that this is a "Western racist plot".

[fromthedeck]

Hi.. I joined a while ago, but this is my first post.

Hoofharted, I agree about the "western racist plot"

I guess Boeing made a plane too complicated for our 3rd world friends to fly.

Its all the fault of the west.:ugh:

Another point that only just occured to me. I know ATC in HKG try to minimise time on the runway by clearing you to take off while still on taxiways so that checklists can be run and you can "keep it rolling".

In looking at the incident, it would seem that perhaps this practice also contributed. How could they take off on a taxiway if aircraft aren't cleared for take off untill they are on the runway? True the idiots in the front end of that 737 should have known better, but perhaps local ATC practice should be looked at too.

[ACMS]

Let me see.............

Taxyway lights...........GREEN CENTERLINE, BLUE EDGE. Basically narrow and dark.

Runway lights................LWMO lights fitted, damn bright, wide and looks very impressive with nice TDZ lights in white and red colours. Very pretty:ok:

Unless it's VERY LOW vis how could you make a mistake in HKG with all the LWMO lights blazing on the runway?

incredible, they must have been asleep at 0400?
Bad rostering maybe? No rest?

I guess I wont be flying to Okinawa in the future then.

[hongkongfooey]

The issue now is what are the CAD going to do about it?

Abso:mad:lutely nothing, the same as they have done about all the other incidents that happen daily at the circus.
Now that the bedwetter has been allowed to grace the LHS, you can bet the corruption will not get any better.:ugh:

[Re-entry]

They were just following the example of CI at Anchorage (http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/accident_list_2.asp?accident_no=126)

[throw a dyce]

UK phraseology says that we have to stipulate the holding point when issuing a line up clearance.
i.e Bankcrupt Air,via Juliet 10,line and wait 25L.
It might have helped to prevent this.Also you can see quite clearly even on the 07's that they are lined up on the runway.If the ground radar was on this would easily be cross checked.
I'm shocked that this got 500m down a taxiway.That could be about 80kts.
The holes in the cheese lined up here.What about fatigue in the Tower controllers.After all CAD is telling them to do compulsory,unpaid overtime.:suspect:

[Guava Tree]

Remember the old saying:
If you pay peanuts you can employ monkeys.

[Mr. Bloggs]

I believe a Philippines A340 taking off 07L (07R closed) in the early morning had a similar fate. Taxing on Taxiway B for 07L and given the Take Off Clearance. Did the turn at the end and applied Take Off thrust. He was on taxiway A then ATC told him to abort.

Any similarities?
:ooh:

[Bedder believeit]

HK Tower controller here, this will be the third such incident at CLK. Was it on 07L? After the second incident, an instruction came out that we were to issue a "Line up" only clearance on the North runway, if taxyway "B" was being used until we (ATC) observed that the departure (either visually or by ground radar) was actually entering the runway, and then "Clear for Take off". I don't know if this occurred on 07R (fairly unusual as the South runway is closed overnight a lot more than the North). If I recall, both previous incidents occurred with two separate airlines from a country that seems to spawn most of our typhoons! The incident that you refer to Mr. Bloggs was an A330 and there was a sweeper vehicle on TWY A about midpoint, that had just vacated the runway.

[Kitsune]

What will the CAD do about it - nothing.... is incorrect.

FIRST they will ask CX what to do, then do nothing......:cool:

[badairsucker]

KITSUNE,

You owe me a new keyboard...................

Just read your reply and spat my coffee all over it, great reply mate.:D:D:D:D

[sim01]

Why not get GR to do some tail skids down the runways so the HKA boys will actually see the difference between a taxiway and runway

[BlunderBus]

why don't we paint some big large numbers and piano keys on the runways and let pilots know about them?:eek:

[drool69er]

1. Dirty business tactics

2.Bribery and corruption with CAD

3.Arrogant, inexperienced airline pilot wannabes given managerial positons

4.Firing 14 pilots and lying about the reasons

5. Replacing 14 pilots with useless, unsafe pilots - because they are friends of the arrogant inexperienced managers

6.offering a ridiculous pay scheme to favour the new useless pilots and aimed to squeeze out already experienced, without incident, HKA pilots, and then claim that Cathay and Dragon will soon follow suit with the utterly ridiculous pay scheme.

7.Stopping F/O's who have flown in China for over 2years, have 1000 hours on type,from flying into Kunming and letting new Captains with no Kunming experience F^ck up the approach.

8.Deleteing ALL QAR's from the new useless Captains from hard landing in Kunming, overbanks, overspeeds etc

9. Taking off on wet runway with well over aircraft and company limit crosswind - and then telling the investigating Captain (westerner) to leave the investigation alone.

10. And now trying to kill a plane load of pax by taking off on a taxiway.

Almost half a dozen issues brought up in these posts, and I haven't included them all.

The writing has been on the wall for too long. Someone is going to be killed, unless...........

ALL OF HKA SINGA SNAKE MANAGERS ARE REMOVED FROM THEIR POSITIONS ALONG WITH ALL THEIR USELESS MATES FROM THE SOUTH.

The proof is out there, CAD are sure going to look bad when these idiots finally do the unthinkable.

Waiting for a reply from the losers to start the racist thing again............

[FlexibleResponse]

"In International Aviation, the long-term safety of an airline, will bear a direct correlation to the salary that the pilots are paid." (Anon).

[drool69er]

As for HKA case, the egotistical self appointed managers pay a large chunk of salary to themeslves.

If heads are to roll, Madam Wu, dickie bird lai, Jerk ohf, and hostie sexual harraser dick stew should be the first to go.

[hkadaily]

Guys...before these guys kill a plane load of pax why dont we get the media involved....

...this way atleast the clean-up can extend to HKCAD!

[drool69er]

Intercepted proof.............
Need we say more??
We all at HKA have been screwed by the lowest form of filth





Dear

Please understand that the company is not on a Cost-saving exercise only for this period till the end of the year. Cost-saving is an exercise that must be perpetualy on-going for the company to stay efficient.

While I agree with you that money is not always the main motivator for many people in a job, as HR, you should understand that a big distabilizer factor amongst workers can be the disparity in salary for 2 persons of same seniority doing the same job.

Also, it is not difficult for anybody, let alone you as HR, to understand that Pilots, Engineers/Tech personnel and Fight Attendants are all in great demand in the market. These professionals are difficult to replace for the simple reason that it takes time to train and qualify them (and that is only if we first succeed in attracting them to join the company). You as HR should do your utmost to retain these people and not always plan on making adjustments at the end of the year. You may not have anyone left at the end of the year!!

As HR, you seem to rely alot on Hear-say, Gossips and Back-stabbing feed back to form an opinion of a person. Should you not rely more on the Depatrmental Heads to recommend position upgradings? I have found your knowledge of Airline operations severely lacking. I would advise that you trust the Department Heads to understand the inner workings of the department better than you and discuss their problems in greater detail.

Do not have the misconception that you as HR is the sole person to decide on Hiring and Promotions nor are you the head of a secret Police Force. We are all here with one common goal and that is to make this airline profitable.

Undersdtand this and I am sure it will put youself in better light with the staff of HKA and HKE.

Best of luck
COO, HKA

[Park n Shop]

Don't they identify the departing runway on line up with the selected ILS identifier for that runway and the rising runway symbol which will be in the middle of the lower half of the PFD if lined up on the correct runway????

If you're on the taxiway it is off to one side and sticks out like dogs balls.

Awareness is lacking, discussing threats during the before start briefing (4.00am everyone tired, keep your eyes and ears open) and a rush/complacent job.

Let this be a lesson.:=

Thank god no one was hurt including another aircraft taxing on the departing taxiway.:{

[hongkongfooey]

Normally, the big thick white lines with a big number near them, the big thick white lines you align the a/c nosewheel with, and the pretty white ( not GREEN, not BLUE )HICL and HIAL are enough.
Let alone the ILS.

[Dixi Normus]

This is HKA's home port, stuff like this should not happen. NO EXCUSES.

[B747-800]

Guess that should be in the category: rumours and BS.

[hongkongfooey]

Hows that 74-800 ??
It happened champ, so not sure what you are on about.

[trevfly]

It may be HKAs home port, but are their pilots familiar, most having arrived from 3rd world hell holes?

Thankfully no one taxying down Alpha at the time

[fromthedeck]

SCMP and Korean Newspapers have been contacted.

If the CAD.. aka Eric the bedwetter won't address this, I am sure a public outing will.

[Traffic]

Sim01

Problem is that the skid marks will be on the taxiway:ooh:

[hkadaily]

"fromthedeck"...ON YA MATE!!! Well done!:D About time something was done about these clowns!

[Hoofharted]

I see that all of the HKA warriors are vewy vewy qwuiet!!! Whatsa matter........nothing to say? Can't dismiss this one as a racist plot by imperial colonial westerners out to get you?

And another thing........now that the Olympics are over and there is "accommodation available" how are you enjoying being back in a hotel?

[hkadaily]

Just heard that the f/o involved in the taxiway 'departure' had his version of the MOR thrown out and was told to sign on one that had been written by Wu. The f/o has been into see HKCAD and hopefully told them his version.

[LapSap]

Regardless of their piloting prowess, that is now 3 incidents under almost identical circumstances -single north runway ops, early hours of the morning, a/c taxying via 'B' for 07L, takes first turn onto 'A' instead of the Runway.
How many more times until CAD do something positive about this to address the obvious human factors involved?!
How about a 50 ft sign saying "This is not a :mad:ing Runway!!".

[ACMS]

Oh come on.

It is very difficult for a trained Pilot to mistake the taxyway with the runway, especially in places like HKG where the lights are numerous and very specific.

The SQ in TPE is totally different, they mis identified a closed 'runway' in heavy rain, it had side line blue lights that looked white in the rain and it was very wide as they expected. So I can see how they stuffed up.

But Hkg, in good wx with all the lights, narrow taxyways v wide runways?

Don't blame the designers of the airport for Pilot incompetance.

[AAIGUY]

last words of the Singaporean flight in TPE

cvr001031.htm (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr001031.htm)

Couldn't get the RW to align on the PFD..no worries.. just take off..:ugh:


"
23:16:23 CAM-1 Not on yet er PVD huh never mind we can see the runway, not so bad. Ok, I am going to put it to high first. OK ready eh, so zero one zero is from the left Lah Ok "

my bold lah...:E

[andy_milman]

I have followed the posts in the ‘demise of hka’ thread... and also here... and quite obviously something needs to be done in HKA. Whether it will or not remains to be seen... but the potential consequences of nothing drastically improving are frightful... not just for the company, but the flying public.
I have read many calls of racism and the like... and IMHO this isn’t the primary concern... though a concern it is. There are so many posts that refer to asian pilots as sub-standard and then the inevitable retorts by (i assume) asian pilots who claim racism and post ‘evidence’ of poor standards in aviation in the western world. Then you get so many posts following, that throw mud at each other about who’s more racist and so on and so forth. This i think is diluting the issue.

I believe (IMHO) that surely racism and racist attitudes do exist as quite clearly posts from both sides indicate... and the current HKA flight ops management have indeed suggested such an attitude... but there is far more to it.

One can be quick to criticise poor standards of Indonesian and Singaporean pilots in HKA... and in each example i think it’s quite justified (eg: taking off in typhoons and attempted take off on taxiways)... but i have personally seen similarly poor standards in ‘western’ pilots (granted, only two). At the risk of being boo’d of my soap box, i suggest, that there are poor pilots all around the world... and also pilots of high standards around the world (including Indonesia). Sadly, some governing authorities are rife with corruption and have such poor regulatory standards that many unsuitable pilots may get through the system (or remain in the system) more so than with other governing authorities. Consequently, the perception is not very favourable of the majority of pilots from a given region, which may or may not bee justified (opinions will vary). This phenomenon is not just limited to certain asian countries, but include some non-asian countries (eg: certain African countries). Socio-economic, cultural reasons and even other factors seemingly removed from the aviation industry itself, may have a lot to do with it.

I’m sure many who have flown with the three mainland captains (who’ve been with the company since CR days) wouldn’t mark them as sub-standard. They may not necessarily be ‘aces of the base’, but are undoubtedly highly competent and capable pilots of the kind of standard that is needed in HKA... and nice guys to boot.

So... when certain posts take on a racially related flavour... the ensuing responses aren’t surprising. I will say, that some retaliatory posts from ‘asian’ posters in the ‘demise of...’ thread, to my mind seem rather inflammatory and are divergent of the points raised... and only invoke similar responses from ‘non-asian’ posters... and the cycle continues... and the main issues are diluted.

These Singaporeans in management at HKA are quite simply tossers who have no idea what they are doing... have no experience in running an airline... have an arrogant attitude towards everyone but themselves and those who suck up to them... and are quite simply so full of themselves that they probably actually believe in the bullsh!t they are spouting.

However, rather than being a function of their racial and cultural background, it may simply be that they are of a weak mind, lacking in maturity, intelligence and experience as managers.

They may not see themselves as ‘racist’... and may have a strong belief in their master plan for HKA... but their track-record so far is ridddled with incompetence, deceit and cover-ups. Perhaps they don’t see the error of their ways... or the consequences... which may be readily apparent to any sensibly-minded and mature observer (regardless of racial or cultural background).

There so many examples of these Singaporean managers having a weak understanding, poor airmanship, sub-standard flying skills, weak CRM skills... and a blatant disregard (“intentional non-compliance”) for the current SOP’s.... such as being ridiculously high on app to HKG and ignoring f/o’s suggestions (loss of face??).. and eventually having over 2000fpm below 1000’ (unstable)... not going around... and catching GS at 700’; descending in VS 1000fpm with speed brake out and thrust up 60-70%... and rebuffing f/o’s suggestion to the contrary; 2.1g landings (Dick 1); 2.3g landings (Dick 2)... and subsequent cover-ups; not to forget being more concerned about 'impressing' the cabin crew... and so on.

Those in the company who have flown with these guys surely have seen similar examples. Perhaps regurgitating specific incidents is unnecessary here as i’m sure many are aware that they are not the experienced airline captains (nor expert managers) they claim to be.

The bottom line is... these w*nkers need to be kicked out. They will not do the company, aviation industry, pilots, other employees or the public any good. Even if their intentions were good (surely many will doubt this – but i’m trying to be fair-minded)... their record so far has shown a high degree of incompetence and outright deception. There is only so far this can go without disastrous consequences.

As for our Indonesian brethren, perhaps we should not suggest they’re all sub-standard. What HKA needs is to actually have some standards... and a thorough selection and vetting process. Let’s target the real criminals here. The captain who was involved in the recent incident may well be of poor standard and undeserving of a position here (he had ppreviously demonstrated a very poor standard as a captain during his training with the company and had trouble getting checked to line... which was conveniently 'dealt with')... but having heard first hand of several scary stories of the HKA’s current recruiting practices, there is real cause for concern.
Eg: a certain management ‘recruiter’ and self proclaimed expert, deliberately changed the assessment scores of a poor candidate AFTER the non-management co-assessor scored him below standard... experienced, typed, ‘jet’ captains performing so poorly that instructors are ‘reluctant’ to pass them on the sim course...etc...etc...

Interestingly, the ‘fourteeners’ who were let go all have jobs in airlines with comparably much higher demonstrated standards and proven history than HKA. Why did HKA let them go just because they were lacking ‘jet time’? Sure, many may cite ‘racism’ as a reason... and perhaps they are correct... or perhaps the Singaporean management didn’t believe they were being racist and in their (little) minds they felt this was a valid move... or perhaps a bit of both? (the hiring of two Asians with no jet time after the 14 probably didn’t help their cause... and is a reasonable decider in our conclusion of racism.)

Even ‘if’ lack of jet time was the sole reason.... this only highlights their narrow-minded and weak attitude in managerial matters of this nature. All those guys (and gals) had plenty of real experience in demanding flying jobs and had a proven history of high performance and standards (both previously and also with HKA)... and were snapped up by far more established and successful airlines. If they were good enough for CX, KA and others... funny they weren’t ‘good enough’ for HKA. I’ve heard second-hand, several comments by the management that the days of CX and KA are over... do they really believe that HKA will dominate these two giants in the region? Surely even they aren’t so stupid. If CX and KA were to fall over... HKA would have been buried long before.... and their daily operating practices would be a primary contributor (covering up heavy landings and hard QAR warnings, pressuring captains to take off in a typhoon, frowning on captains for NOT taking off in a typhoon...etc..).

It’s laughable that they’re reportedly preparing for long-haul A330 operations when they can’t manage a diminishing fleet of B738s... and are losing money at a tremendous rate.

Another thing that concerns me is hearing that these Singaporean managers do not put their name against anything that can come back and bite them. (Perhaps they DO realise the dubiousness of their actions.) I don’ know how true this is, but if so, it is the people in lower management positions, who aren’t in this clique of ‘super-hero’ pilots, that will get roasted... rightly or wrongly... but not entirely fairly.

I’m all for the success of HKA... but with these guys at the helm... i can almost hear the band playing while the Titanic (i know, i know... an ambitious analogy) sinks.

What’s to be done??

[AAIGUY]

Well said.

I have flown with all three Captains from China and had the pleasure of being on course with one. They are , to a man, sound individuals with experience and crm.

Singaswine must simply go away.

[VR-HFX]

The whole operation is a big smoking hole waiting to happen.

Will the CAD please get these people out our airways before they take someone else with them.

[andy_milman]

I presume by "these people" you're referring to the current management and any sub-standard pilots they've hired.

... or do you mean the whole pilot body at HKA?

If the former, i wholeheartedly agree.

[Hoofharted]

Comes a time Ladies and Gentleman when talk is not enough. While I appreciate that it is very easy for me to say, someone from HKA will have to "bite the bullet" and make a formal complaint to the C.A.D (and there are other avenues apart from the "friendly" office).

Until such a complaint is made NOTHING WILL CHANGE. You might fear for your job, but your family may well be fearing for your life and for how they will survive without you.

[hongkongfooey]

HFX, the irony is that one of the CAD might be the one to make that smoking hole :yuk:

[YY U R YY I C]

You are right ............ and let the fun begin. Check out the other forum about HKA.

I think the game has begun ....... well I think so.

[YY U R YY I C]

You mean Eric the bedwetter ????

[throw a dyce]

UK now has painted on the concrete ahead of any runway stopbars,a huge warning on the taxiway.It's red with white lettering RUNWAY AHEAD.It's mainly to stop runway incursions,but it does mark out the runway,in bad conditions.
Has HK got this yet.If not it might have helped stoped this incident as well.:hmm:

[TruBlu351]

Darwin calls it the "Law of Natural Selection"......but unfortunately in the case of these idiots, it's at the expense of the public.

[ACMS]

Painting "runway ahead" on the taxyway just before the holding point??

You might as well add "dick head" as well.

If you get that close to a lit runway holding point and still need a sign telling you the runway is ahead then you should not be flying jets.

The lit up ICAO sign boards, red stop bars, and yellow flashing lights should be more than enough for an experienced crew to recognise. Even if the tower have turned off the red stop bars the others are still on.

In a modern airport, with good weather, experienced crews should never be able to make such a basic mistake.

In bad weather they should be tripple careful and use all external and instrument cues to check runway alignment.

Besides, the 737 sits so low you'd have to be on top of the "runway ahead" sign to see it anyway..............Only a 747 would be high enough. And how do you see it if the surface is wet at night?

[Dan Winterland]

The story made the SCMP this morning with the names of the pilots, and also metioned they had been suspended.

[Blown Seal]

As for being suspended it appears as though (from the roster revision issued last night) that the FO is on a large block of days off yet the Captain concerned is still on line.

Why I am I not surprised.

[CodyBlade]

"Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."


GOD help us all..

[And Then]

Hong Kong - A pilot and his co-pilot have been suspended after they tried to take off from a taxiway rather than a runway at Hong Kong International Airport, investigators said Saturday. An air traffic controller raised the alarm when he saw a South Korea-bound Hong Kong Airlines Boeing 737 carrying 122 passengers hurtling down a taxiway running parallel to the airport's north runway.

The controller radioed the pilot and alerted him in time for him to abort the takeoff after around 500 metres and take off from the runway instead, Hong Kong's Civil Aviation Department said.

The incident took place September 13 on a charter flight bound for Cheong Ju and operated by 7-year-old Hong Kong Airlines, which with sister airline Hong Kong Express flies to 30 cities in Asia.

Indonesian captain Indra Santrianto and his first officer Diego Martin Chiadria, an Argentinian, have been suspended from duty while the airline and Civil Aviation Department investigate the incident.

Santrianto was summoned to explain himself last weekend and insisted in an interview and a written report that he did not try to take off from the taxiway, an airline management source said.

Instead, he claimed he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers might have mistaken his approach for an attempted takeoff.

Flight data examined by investigators showed the plane was travelling at a higher speed than would be expected for an aircraft taxiing toward a takeoff position, the source said.

Since the incident, a memo has been sent out by management to all Hong Kong Airlines pilots saying, "Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."
Taxiways at Hong Kong International Airport run the entire length of the runways but are narrower, have different coloured lighting and unlike runways do not have lights up the centre.

One senior Hong Kong-based pilot told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa, "It is very difficult to mistake a taxiway for a runway, especially at an airport as modern as Chek Lap Kok, but it does sometimes happen.
"There is nothing on board a plane to warn you if you take off from a taxiway or if you stray onto an active runway, and this is a problem that needs addressing."

A spokeswoman for Hong Kong Airlines said the incident was under investigation by the company's management and she could make no further comment on it.

The Civil Aviation Department said in a statement that despite the pilot's claims, it believed he tried to take off from the taxiway instead of the runway.

"The air traffic controller stopped the aircraft as soon as the aircraft began to move," the statement said. "There was no danger to the aircraft or the passengers at any point."

It said it was also investigating the incident.

[YY U R YY I C]

Recently read the news article in the SCMP.

The article states …………. he (the captain) is understood to have argued that he was travelling so rapidly down the taxiway for the early morning flight that air traffic controllers may have mistaken this for an attempted takeoff

Captain Indra, did Mr Wu suggest that this be your argument. Why would you want to taxi east on taxiway A when the departure runway is 07L. As we all know, to get to the hold point for 07L you need to taxi west ?? Seems the lies continue. You are not credible, along with the managers that are obviously trying to protect you and themselves.

Trying to lie your way out of this one is not going to work for you, nor HKA management. Have you forgotten that there are Tower logs and recordings, and your aircraft does have a CVR and FDR, and then of course there are the QARs. But then we all know that QARs get squashed, deleted, or just swept under the carpet at HKA.

There is a suggestion Mr Indra that you like to taxi fast; do you always push TOGA at the start of taxiing ??



Andy Milman ……… well said:ok:. You are right on the money with regards to the w*nk*rs running HKA, and they have to go, for the sake of all within Hong Kong, and not just HKA.

More to follow no doubt.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Since the incident, a memo has been sent out by management to all Hong Kong Airlines pilots saying, "Ensure you are on a runway before taking off."

If the management really believe that the standard of their pilots is such that they need to tell them this, I fear for the safety of those poor unsuspecting slf down the back.:eek:

[hongkongfooey]

What is it with these sandpit idiots ?? :mad: off back to the ME forum would ya .
( BTW, not even close )

New memo coming soon:
" please ensure you are on bay before shutting down engines and opening doors"
and
" please ensure you are above VR before trying to lift off "
and
" please don't drag your knuckles on the ground when walking thruogh the terminal "

[hkadaily]

This ones for JERKOHf...

maybe you should stop evaluatnig pilots in the gecat/oxford sim and get some practice in yourself. You need all the help you can get. Oh by the way...maybe the calibre of guys you hire might do better with a support pilot who actually has some jet time!!! Will your bum boys in your office be trained by you...if so they will continue to make headlines in the papers.

Before i pen-off...the media is in a frenzy and you and your boyfriends in the office will be named! There is a thorough back ground check being done on you guys as I type this!

[wonganopolous]

Let me bring to the forefront of your minds, 'THAT' email circulated back in May.....

This is the same Skipper who on his CTL told the checkie it was ok to backtrack the runway at 60kts (so probably quite plausible he hit TOGA to get a bit of speed up on Taxiway A!).

On that same flight, no attempt was made to re-intercept the outbound VOR radial at NNG-I guess that extends to inability to track a runway centerline.


There WILL be an accident in this airline SOON.... it is no exaggeration to say that EVERY new pilot hired is sub-standard; pilots from indonesia where the aviation industry has been suspended, and guys and gals who were not upgradeable in SIA or CX.

Like the Tower's "Reject reject", the best advice I can give you all is "Eject eject".

[Fuzzy Math]

Sounds to me like the pilots at this airline are a useless bunch of f#cks who couldn't get a decent job at a real airline. No wonder they take off on taxi ways. Pay peanuts and you get retarded pilots.

[Jdriver_HK]

sad to see another round of 'big fight' Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers...sigh!!

[LeanRod737]

Fuzzy you are being a bit too Generalistic by implying all pilots at HKA are substandard. Sure the direct entry Captains are useless but dont put the existing Captains and arse saving western Fo's into the same category as these incompetent fools.

[andy_milman]

My dear Jdriver_HK,

I think you’re missing the point here.

This is not a battle of “Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers” as you so naively put it. That is over-simplifying the issue and demonstrates a distinct lack of understanding of what is really going on here.

I’ll have you know that i have discussed this with many of our South American colleagues who wholeheartedly share the sentiments expressed in the these posts (re: HKA and Singaporean management). They are NOT happy and are as vehemently opposed to the current flight ops management and the drastic (and frightening) lowering of standards at HKA. I don’t know if any have posted here. Perhaps... perhaps not.... but it’s not to say they don’t join the posters here in their complete disapproval and utter opposition to the Singaporean management.

The Singaporean management, by no virtue of their ethnicity, but entirely of their complete incompetence, arrogance, deceitfulness and nepotism are running HKA in to the ground... figuratively or literally... you decide.

Amongst other things, they promised HKA/Hainan senior management they would resolve the pilot shortage... easily done by actually LOWERING the standards for pilot candidates sought... f/o’s and captains (or skippers as you so quaintly put it). Note: 'Jet time' does not equal standards.

14 qualified, rated, eager, disciplined pilots with significant aviation experience and good performance history were summarily let go for “lack of professional experience” given their lack of ‘jet time’. Instead pilots who indeed have jet time, but perhaps less than desirable airmanship, standards and ability have been hired. Granted, it would be unfair to label all these new joiners as sub-standard without sufficient evidence, but given the Singaporean managements great drive to swell the ranks, there indeed are many who have found their way in to the company despite having seriously struggled through the sim course (unlike the fourteeners), performed poorly on base checks and line checks, continually exhibit woefully poor airmanship and CRM... and even one who would have been cut after selection sim if not for his assessment scores being altered post-event.

The Indonesian captain involved in the recent event was sub-standard... as was accidently leaked in an email to the pilot body at HKA. The email regarding a previously attempted line check confirmed the fears (and rumours) most of us had regarding several of these new joiners. Subsequently, ‘Taxi-gate’ was a result of poor recruiting and vetting standards.

The Singaporean management, with possibly the exception of their leader (not certain), have NO airline management experience... NO (or at best very little) training experience... NO HR experience... poor ability themselves and very limited command experience. Interestingly, most of our South American (and ‘Aust/Kiwi’) captains have far more experience than them... and yet they are running the show... with NO demonstrable evidence of quantitative or qualitative achievement.

The fact is my naive friend... some posters perhaps get a little too colourful in their racial references... but this is perhaps due to frustration about what’s going on at HKA. Throw in a death threat, a number of cover-ups and a few intimidation tactics... and a very fiery bunch of posters you’ll have.

So is it really a battle of Aust/Kiwi vs SEA... or perhaps a group of pilots concerned, frustrated, disappointed and p!ssed off with a bunch of nincompoops???

[throw a dyce]

ACMS,
Well I'm all for writing ''RUNWAY AHEAD D:mad:HEAD'' at the stop bars,if it prevents runway incursions,or aircraft departing on a taxiway.:D
Maybe you should enlighten yourself on current thinking about this subject.
I saw 3 runway incursions at CLK,all through red stop bars.Thank god none of them were dangerous,but anything that improves safety should be looked at.
If that sign is the last link in the chain,that stops a list of errors becoming a disaster,then get the paint brushes out.:(

[iLuvPX]

Throw a dyce, why stop with signs if its so helpful? Why not a big toll gate that you have to throw your token in before being allowed on the runway???

Having stupid signs like the ones in LHR are just ridiculous. We are all professionals, you cant cater to the lowest idiot every time. Just more pedantic british bs. :yuk:

[throw a dyce]

iluvpx,
Fine,Carry on.I saw more dodgy incidents in 3 years in HK,than 25 years in UK.If it's British BS and we don't kill innocent passengers then I'll sleep easy.
It seems the HK way is rascists finger pointing exercise.A bit like the way the CAD investigated it's ATC incidents when I was there.
I thought the whole reason for safety was to learn from other peoples mistakes,and be as safe as possible.Maybe I was wrong when it comes to the perfection that happens all the time in HK.:uhoh:

Suggest you look up the Manchester and one of the American runway incursions (Lost in fog).It's part of our TRUCE training here.:eek:

[ACMS]

Well I for one didn't mention race anywhere in my posts.

I did however mention incompetance. And that is what this incident is

INCOMPETANCE

They can paint all they want on the tarmac, I can see it's not going to hurt but in this case I don't think it would have helped. The sign would be near the holding point of the runway and this 737 never came close to that point did it? And it was dark.

Would you suggest they paint a sign on taxyway B saying "runway ahead sign ahead"

If a so called "experienced" Captain can mis-identify lots of wonderful different colour lights AND sign boards on a good night at one of the most modern airports anywhere in the free world then he's very below par.

There is just so many different visual cues around the airport that it's just plain funny how he could stuff up.

And I believe taxyway A ( where he attempted T/O ) around the north west corner of the field ONLY HAS CENTRELINE GREEN lights and NO SIDELINE BLUE.

THIS MEANS HE TRIED TO TAKEOFF WITH ONLY CENTRELINE GREEN LIGHTS...............that's even worse...........:D

Ground the i:mad: immediatly for 1/ colour vision tests
and 2/ re-training on airport signs.

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE FREINDS.

[ACMS]

I mean the guys just lucky they weren't towing an Aircraft down taxyway A to Haeco. Then it would have been a disaster.

If he can't see taxyway signs and lights what makes you so sure he would have seen another Aircraft under tow?

[iLuvPX]

If those darn American's wouldnt have invented aviation all those years ago, we wouldnt be having these problems with morons trying to fly their shiny little jets.

I got an answer for your fog issue also throw ya dice, how about the CAD hire some of those girls in LKF with all the flashy buttons and lights to stand at the runways entrance? Cant miss it..safety first right???

I hate to say this, but I also love AMCS's idea about the Runway Ahead Sign Ahead(RASA) sign. Things will be one sign safer than that at LHR. Im also thinking up something else...maybe the entire taxiway leading up to the RASA sign being painted rainbow color, with diamonds and shooting stars randomly placed along the way...and a peppermint striped unicorn for the centerline. No Hello Kittys anywhere however..that would just be stupid.
:ugh:

[throw a dyce]

Perhaps something as simple as a red stop bar,one way at the end of A,might be all that's needed.Put the red runway ahead marking as well at the Runway stopbar,and you have 2 extra clues:D The girls can stay in LKF.:ok:
Milan,Tenerife are other accidents you may like to read about( NoSMR).Or Gatwick when and aircraft landed on a taxiway (green centrelines)after a SRA.Gatwick was interesting from a human factors point,but in your book it's incompetance.
However if you guys say it was incompetance then so be it.You haven't mentioned the Tower not spotting it either out the window or on the SMR,until it rolled.

[hongkongfooey]

"There is nothing on board a plane to warn you if you take off from a taxiway or if you stray onto an active runway, and this is a problem that needs addressing."

You IDIOT !!!!!!

There is nothing that warns the interviewers that they are about to hire a complete peanut, THAT is a problem that needs addressing. :ugh:

[Bedder believeit]

Let's face it, the tower controller shouldn't clear an aircraft for take-off until he/she is positively certain that the aircraft cannot roll with a take-off clearance from other than (in this case) rwy 07L. Sure, saying "Line up and wait runway 07L" will not stop an aircraft from lining up on twy A, but a quick check either out the window, or on the ground radar will confirm where the aircraft is, and at worse a "you d**k head, you aren't on the runway, turn left on to A2 and CONFIRMING, line up rwy07L" should save one of the last swiss cheese holes from forming up.

ACMS, highly unlikely to have a towing/taxiing aircraft on twy A, but highly likely to have vehicles...including sweepers which are always out in the dark hours, and I think they would do as much damage to a speeding jet as would anything else.

[HEALY]

When ATC vectors you around traffic in IMC or clears you below LSALT "on radar terrain" you are in many ways trusting the professional competency of that controller, when a ground crew member closes your cargo door you are trusting a degree of competency so why should ATC have to look out the window to check wether or not the pilot has achieved the absolute minimum level of competency in lining up on the runway instead of the taxiway?

[Dan Winterland]

You can have as many clues as you like, but there will always be a way of circumventing them. Someone mentioned the SQ6 incident at TPE. Those guys knew LWMO were in force and hard tuned the ILS to get the PVD working. But when they lined up on the taxiway and one of the crew pointed out that the PVD was spinning, indicating that they were way off the runway centreline, the Captain chose to ignore it.

In the HKA incident, it occurred in an area of the airport which is not normally used by departing aircraft and looks different to the other thresholds. The fact that this type of incident has occured more than once from this point indicates that something needs to be done here. Such as a big "TAXIWAY" note painted on taxiway 'A'. Pilots don't like being treated like idiots, but it seems that in some cases it's justified!

[Avantgarde]

Let's face it, the tower controller shouldn't clear an aircraft for take-off until he/she is positively certain that the aircraft cannot roll with a take-off clearance from other than (in this case) rwy 07L.
It is not unusual controllers cleared an aircraft for take-off when it's only abeam J5 on J/H. Bedder, are you saying this practice is wrong or illegal? I hope you are not our SSQO.

[andy_milman]

There are many suggestions as how to reduce threats and opinions will vary. Lessons learnt will continue to develop the aviation industry, as we strive to reduce accidents/incidents/threats... but the inherent risks will never be fully eliminated. Perhaps the option of nil risk is to not start your engines.

I think it’s understood in our industry that inherent risks will always exist, but by careful determination and application of continually developing and improving procedures, these risks can be minimised to an acceptable level (risk management) whilst maintaining a functioning aviation industry.

I personally did share ACMS’s opinion on ‘runway ahead’ signs, but that’s not to say it’s an invalid suggestion. Stop bars, signs, lights, ATC and airline procedures, CAD requirements... etc... may all be discussed ad nauseum, whilst also considering practicality, cost/benefit analysis etc... in the end the idea is to improve and grow towards a safer industry.

However, the issue here is not just about an ‘incompetent captain’... nor stop bars at alpha or ‘runway ahead’ signs. Despite all the procedures, the most competent of pilots will on occasion make mistakes... and there always will be ‘someone’ to comment on how basic and simple that mistake was and label said pilot as ‘incompetent’. Other factors may indeed have contributed. It ‘may’ not be sufficiently accurate to pin it down to one sole person for the event... though IMHO this individual bears most of the blame. I am not by any means arguing for the competency of this particular captain... but am only suggesting that everyone can make a mistake... especially at 4am... but this is where we MUST have operational, regulatory and personal procedures to guard against threats.

For me personally, the biggest threat here (biggest swiss cheese hole if you prefer) is the current management that hire and retain (by any deceptive and unethical means necessary) pilots with a ‘demonstrably poor standard’and thus increase the 'risk' further. This particular captain is one... as a previous internal email illustrates. Other recruiting practices by management that have become known to us also add to this problem. What about the airmanship and operational practices of those who took off in the typhoon... one nearly scraping a donk? How many more potential (higher than acceptable) risks exist within the ranks of HKA?
[Interestingly, re: ‘Typhoon-gate’, the head of flight training has commented that max crosswind limitations are not really ‘limitations’, rather, max ‘demonstrated’ crosswinds... and therefore it was acceptable to take-off in those conditions. What??? What about the SOP you fool? Would CAD consider them ‘limitations’ or merely ‘suggestions’? Once again this individual has illustrated his lack of knowledge, understanding or managerial experience.]

The swiss cheese holes are indeed lining up and it doesn’t help that the management are actively drilling more holes.

What’s next i wonder? Something seriously needs to be done... and it should start with the current flight ops management being removed.

[hkadaily]

I am aware of the media being 'advised' about the recent incident by my fellow aviators. I applaud all of them for finally doing something. I myself have done the same. I now realise that the point many of you have raised about corrupt hiring practices. Isnt it time that the media and relevant authorities are also made aware of HKA's hiring policies? One alone maybe able to make change...but if we all unite we can make a bigger change!

[itwilldoatrip]

Jdriver_HK sad to see another round of 'big fight' Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers...sigh!!

It's not only here they do it everywhere just ask around. Aviation was born in Aus you know

[drool69er]

itwilldoatrip

Your a moron. Read the bloody posts properly you idiot.

I have also written to SCMP, Korean newspaper indicating this is directly a result of CAD's(bedwetter) and singasnake incompetence.

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE. ITS A SAFETY ISSUE AND THESE CLOWNS ARE PUTTING ALL OF US TO SHAME BY LOWERING THE STANDARDS WE HAVE ALL WORKED HARD TO MAINTAIN.

This should not be tolerated and I am glad to see all of us are getting together and putting these useless idiots away for good.

[drool69er]

Sorry, but I thought this is absolutely brilliant and truthful extract of whats going on and the history of these singa idiots. I hope the poster doens't mind, but its a great piece of literature, and I'm sure its exactly what we are all thinking and been wanting to express.

This is not my post - well done to the guy who wrote it, originally from the demise thread. I felt it should be here as well.



Ladies and Gentleman of the HKA Pilot Group

There is an increasing concern amongst the aviation fraternity here in Hong Kong for the way in which HKA Flight Operations is being managed, and with the standard of pilots being hired.

The reference to ladies and gentlemen of the HKA Pilot Group excludes the Singa muppets; as judging by the way they run Flight Ops, and the flights on which they are captains on HKA aircraft, they are incapable of being a gentleman, neither mind have the ability to fly the plane, be a captain, be a pilot, nor be a manager. Yes, in fact there are many stories to be told by some very capable and qualified first officers; the word on the street is that if it was not for the competent first officers there could have been a few incidents and/or accidents. Just as well you guys and girls in the right seat are more than capable and competent in your skills and ability in flying the B737-800; and that includes your situational awareness (obviously the guys from down south lack in both skills). The mind boggles as to how some of those in the left seat even got to be a pilot, neither mind be a captain. It is well known that many of the Singa muppets are very low on command hours (and that is not to mention time on the 737-800).

Does seem that the mob down at CAD are passing a blind eye for (perhaps) personal benefit and reasons ……… Mr EC, what do you think ?????

Whilst not wishing to criticise the enthusiasm with which some of you have participated in the most lively debate on Pprune on the topic of the demise of HKA, and now the taxiway A incident, the pilots of HKA may wish to consider a different tack. It is time now to set aside the “racist card”, set aside the “digging at each other” (well, that will obviously exclude the Singa muppets, and the self attached clowns (some may suggest sycophants), who cannot see the writing on the wall, as their only way forward is to attack, like a wounded muppet and looser), and for you good pilots to rather focus on what is important ……….. focus on your jobs, and doing a good job as professional pilots for your airline. Read on, more on this later.

To the Singa muppets and HKA management, you all need to understand that Hong Kong is a small aviation community, and there are many of your very good pilots now flying for both KA and CX. The word gets out, and so we all know. We have friends.

Nothing changes ………. the mob at CAD continue to have deaf ears and blind eyes; and the perpetrator is Mr EC - more on that later.

One can only presume the reference to JERKOf, here on Pprune, is to the person who is doing the hiring of pilots for HKA.

JERKOf - are you the guy suffering from “short-man-syndrome”, amongst other problems (where do we start) ??? - you should consider changing your career (give up and just be a muppet). Not only are you a pathetic pilot and incompetent captain (from accounts by those who have had the misfortune to have flown with you, and if you wish to know there are many such accounts), it is evident that you are incapable of distinguishing and selecting between a person who should be a direct entry captain from a person who should be sweeping the streets. From your background (we all know the details), what experience do you have at selecting the right people for the right jobs, one has to ask. Even more concerning is the word on the street that you are soon to be appointed as a training captain (or has that already happened; God help us). Yes, we all know about your simulator session with Air Hong Kong where you chose to do an orbit on finals (IMC) because you were too high; was that a simulator session operating into Penang ??? And then, as a captain at HKA on a flight from Korea, you had to divert (was it to ZGGG ???) as you had cocked-up on the fuel calculation. And, that is not to mention your lack of knowledge about systems, performance and limitations for the 737-800. Just a few examples as to why you should save yourself, and become a street sweeper.

And then, there is the infamous Dickie Lai …….. Dickie (“the attitude man”), you must be the laughing stock of the airline industry here in HK; why do you persist???? Flunked the TRE course hands down, and then we hear you are becoming a simulator instructor (how is life down there in Sanya ??). Goodness, if there was ever a reason for you to make haste and disappear back down south, there is now undisputed evidence that it is time that you give away the flying game, as your abilities and standards, as well as attitude, is not suited to be sitting on a flight deck (and that is only in the RHS …. or should that be in the observers seat just observing as you probably will never get any further as an observer), neither mind being a simulator instructor. Lets not forget your email (circulated to all within HKA, and we hear responded to so appropriately by the anonymous Cr*p C*pt**ns) about the GMF taking his annual leave; your arrogance - and that is your problem. Your attitude, behaviour and methods would not be tolerated in a real airline, nor any company in the corporate world.

And, so to Tricky Dickie Stewart ……. Trickie Dickie, we hear you like to pull the speed-brake in the climb (the barber pole getting a bit close to limits was it ???), landing off unstable approaches and, amongst others. So disappointing to hear that you (was it sexually) harassing KA and HKA flight attendants. If you were in a country like Australia you will be had big time. Sexual harassment is a dismissible offence (in fact people like you end up in jail for sexual harassment), as is blatant disregard for SOPs (but then, you will not go to jail for disregarding SOPs, just fired). How can you even suggest that you are a training captain and Chief Pilot Training with your attitude and manner in the office and on the aircraft ???? For those on the string on Pprune about HKA suggesting that Trickie Dickie is off to HKE as DFO, we hear differently (well, we most certainly hope so); CAD (that obviously excludes Eric the Bedwetter) has finally come to their senses and have turned that one down. Watch out HKE, and keep a safe record.

And then, the email from the Fleet Manager that was meant only for the GMF and members of the training department, about a captain under training, that ended up in the inbox of all HKA pilots. Though unfortunate for all concerned, at least the pilot group got to hear what is reality and the truth (good on you KL for being honest, keep up the good work). I suppose even the man at CAD got to read the email. Same captain who attempted the departure out of HKG off taxiway A (separate string on that one indeed - horrifying to say the least).

Any action Mr EC ????? You have been very quiet of late …………. well one must use Mr, as you will never be a captain; well that is with a real airline (perhaps we should commend that you be appointed the Chief Pilot of the HKA Aero Club, so that you may walk around looking most proud in your captain’s uniform - you look an absolute clown in your captain’s stripes - a circus is a funny place, and that is where you belong), when those in the know are laughing at your expense.

Moving on ……. perhaps further discussion about base training failures (and subsequent miraculous passes - passed by who ???), death threats, disregard for SOPs, hard landings, and the rest, should be left to the Ppruners of HKA to divulge.

Mr Wu - you have most certainly created a problem for yourself, and HKA, and you will need to resolve this one very quickly, if you can. Your consistent protection of your self selected muppets is your problem.. You should consider this fact ….. you are not a manager, nor are you a good pilot, and captain included. You should head away from this mess that you have created, and let competent and qualified managers get HKA back on the rails. We just cannot understand how you managed to convince HKA company management that you and your team were the boys for the job. Or was Eric the Bedwetter who did the convincing under your tutorage.

The HK pilot fraternity are immensely proud of our safety record, and we most certainly do not wish to see this record tarnished by a bunch of muppets who are insistent on employing pilots from the wrong regions around the world, employing captains who cannot spell aircraft neither mind know how to fly one, and who have no idea how to be, perform, behave, nor act as a captain; you Singa muppets included. What is the game ????? Or is Ronal Lim calling the shots over all the Singa muppets ???????????

There is most certainly concern for the situation that has developed at HKA.

The latest coming out of HKA is that the Safety Manager may not publish QARs, and that certain captains are exempt from the results stemming from the HKA QAR system. We all know about the HKA training captains blasting off the other week in the typhoon with crosswinds well in excess of limitations. At a real airline, managed by real managers, such actions would have resulted in dismissal. We believe that you Mr Wu have suppressed all records of the event ……… such news travels fast.

What are you doing Mr Wu, by protecting your own self-selected muppets (or is it you Mr Lim). Can you not see the consequences ?? And now we hear that you, Mr Wu, are trying to force the first officer involved in the attempted taxiway A departure to sign an MOR written by you. Goodness man (or should one say Ms WU), what are you doing ………… now we know why you and your muppets are no longer at Air HK.

One has to ask the question as to what HKA company, and Hainan company, management are doing. Or are they also being lied to, and not been given the correct and true information. There is a theme, and you Singas are the cause.

To the boys down at CAD, perhaps it is time to take action and stop hiding behind the corporate monster. Start listening and reading ……… right here, this is proof as to what is happening. It is not for anyone outside HKA to spill the beans, but perhaps you may like to take your head out of the sand, stop being like an Ostrich, and realise that there are some almighty problems on your door step. Mr EC is pandering to HKA for his own self benefit and we all know it; it is just that you guys down there at headquarters cannot see what is happening.

Returning to the HKA Pilot Group ……… time for you to focus on your jobs, and for you all to do your job as good pilots for HKA. HKA is your airline. You need to wake up, and be a collective group. If one may be bold, you are a divided crowd of pilots (there is a big difference between a group and a crowd - a group has an objective, and a collective focus and commitment ………. a crowd, well they are just there for the entertainment).

Being a group standing together, there is no suggestion of militancy; it is about being a collective group. As an example, HKE has proved that - who now, and have doing for some time, flies to KL enjoying the luxury of the hotel; and who flies to PEK to stay in the Hainan dormitory ???? Can you pilots at HKA not see the reversal, created by who ??????

Yes, there were the 49ers, and Hong Kong’s labour laws (are there such things ???) are most different to the likes of Australia; though be mindful as to how successful the likes of the KA pilots association has been and continues to be.

It is not about taking on management and the airline, it is about being a collective group working for the betterment of the airline, your jobs and you as individuals.

One recalls when KA was in the development stage (though, thank goodness, there were not the Singa muppets looking after themselves and their mates). Times were tough, salaries and conditions questionable; the pilots stuck it out and believed in each other as pilots; and look at them now. And, that is where you HKA ladies and gentleman can be, and what you need to do.

HKA can be like KA, as long as the Singa muppets run off (rather be fired) to their hell holes, and take the rest of their cohorts (well, we cannot call them pilots, neither mind captains) from that southern region, with them.

Yes, the Argentineans and Brazilians have all experienced bad times being part of a union and failed airlines (and you guys from South America do not forget, that some of your current and ex HKA pilots from Australia and New Zealand also went through the demise of an airline - you guys are not alone in experiencing the traumatic events of the demise of an airline). To you we sympathise, but you do need to see this one differently. You need to be a collective pilot group, working for each other and for the betterment of your airline. And you South Americans, from what we hear, you are in the majority, well at present that is; though the Singa muppets are hell-bound in trying to change that ratio. Take action South Americans, the rest of the real pilots need your support.

Dare one say it …….. Hong Kong, CX and KA need HKA …….. you sort of keep an honest playing field. Please do not throw away a good opportunity.

HKA Pilots ……….. stay as a group, be focussed on your jobs, and do your job well as professionals for your airline (that excludes the Singa muppets and cohorts - no one could ever suggest they are pilots).

In the words of an unknown author …….. “give a man enough rope, and he/she will hang him/herself”. ……… the Singa muppets are well on their way (and they may just take Eric the Bedwetter with them ……… sort of self-created; nothing like shooting oneself in the foot, but taking aim first !!!!!!).

Singa muppets …….. head south, and go and ruin someone else’s good safety record. You are not welcome here in Hong Kong.

To all the genuine, honest and qualified HKA pilots (this excludes the Singa muppets and their mates), safe flying, and good luck. We believe you will not succumb to the Singa muppets, because we as pilots flying here in HK believe in you …….. as long as you believe in yourselves.

Take good care ………………….. and safe flying.

PS - to the pilots of HKA who read this forum, or those pilots who are not part of HKA (good choice), please circulate this homily to all pilots of HKA. You may have their email addresses, we do not. Please copy, paste and send; and for that we are most appreciative and grateful. Lets spread the message, and lets create change. Anyone know the email address of HKA management.??? Please advise, as they need to read this and much more.

Lets start the education of all, and make change by being open and honest ……… Singa muppets, your days are numbered.

[Blown Seal]

iwildoa**** et al...

Point the finger at Aussies/Kiwis all you like buddy, we may be loud however as a cultural character trait that entails speaking up and out, which on the flightdeck has contributed to the aviation records that we can be proud of.

One of the big issues going on here if you have failed to realise it is culture. The fact that certain cultures condone dishonesty, corruption and face saving, has done nothing for accident/incident rates from the countries concerned except increase them.

So as a mild suggestion unless you have something positive to contribute F@ck Off!

[hkadaily]

Its not the Kiwis/Aussies against the Asians....this issue (as mentioned by others earlier) is about safety and transparancy with running an airline....with the ultimate goal of good work ethics. We have a Sri Lankan and a Fijian Indian...these guys I am sure also agree and support our concerns for this new management.

If Hainan were only to see the trends of QAR's/incidents since Wu and his boyfriends arrived! Under GR, AF and NH things were running like a well oiled machine.....even with guys without jet experience being hired!

[drool69er]

Oh and pilotinasia

Hows the command upgrade coming along? Still telling everyone your the first???

Notice you've been quiet along with all your other "blame our inadequacies on others" mates.

Pays to keep your mouth shut doens't it.

Your going down like the rest.

[hongkongfooey]

Are these dead:mad:s really from the sandpit, and if so, what is their interest in HK :confused:
Maybe we should all go over to the ME forum and start sprouting off about things we have'nt a clue about :ugh:

[NotHere]

Oh and pilotinasia
Hows the command upgrade coming along? Still telling everyone your the first???

Well, well, well.........what can I say chaps,
This guy hasn't changed since those days......:cool:.........just have to ask his ex-colleagues back then what happened.....:mad:!!!!

I know I've said this before and will say it again.........Indonesians are not to be trusted...:*.......good in lying & covering F@#K UPs of their own as usual......:ugh:.......just keeps coming......bloody ouh!!!!

Happy flying

[Bedder believeit]

Avantgarde wrote:

"It is not unusual controllers cleared an aircraft for take-off when it's only abeam J5 on J/H. Bedder, are you saying this practice is wrong or illegal? I hope you are not our SSQO".

I would estimate that since CLK opened, less than 3% of all departures from HK have been on the North runway, and probably less than 2% have been on 07L, yet I have never heard of an aircraft lining up for departure on twy J when they should be lining up on the South runway. And yet we have had at least 3 (possibly more) attempted take-offs on taxyway Alpha. Something must be wrong, wouldn't you say? Call it "poor airman ship from late night fliers, tiredness, poorish service from the ADC......" I could go on.
After the second occurrence that happened about 4 years ago, a memo was put out advising controllers not to "clear an aircraft for take-off" on the North runway until they had been identified as being actually on the runway." Pretty good "control-man-ship" I would say. I will further add that anyone that clears an aircraft for take-off on the South runway from abeam J5 is either lazy or just plain asking for trouble. Let's face it, 99% of the time the crew will come back to you as they are swinging on to taxyway H1, J1, J9 or J10 and say "Confirm we are cleared for Take-off?". So what have you saved, other than causing just a bit more confusion? My experience in this job is that the less confusion created, the better we all get along.

[throw a dyce]

Perhaps temporary glim reds across the end of A whenever there is Single North Runway ops at night,might stop the next one.Or switch them on to A,when they get past the high speed exits.
I think clearing aircraft for take off abeam J5 on the south runway,is asking for it.Again Nats thinking is that you give the holding point with a line-up clearance.It started with intersection departures,but applies to all holding points.It sounds a bit long winded,but it has saved 3 runway incursions at our place.
Probably seen as more British BS across there.:cool:

[777300ER]

Apparently the Skipper is claiming that he did not try to take off, but was merely taxiing quickly, in the WRONG direction. Unbelievable!

HK Airlines 737 tries to take off from taxiway (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/22/316283/hk-airlines-737-tries-to-take-off-from-taxiway.html)

[AAIGUY]

Amazing isn't it. Skipper is an idiot and a liar. So much so he thinks the rest of us don't know which way one faces to taxi and which one to take off.


I wish to give the FO some credit here. Internal information now suggests he tried to do the right thing and submitted the MOR. Company hussed it up, and he then went to CAD directly. Obviously, one of the crew members has some integrity. Well done Diego.

[andy_milman]

i will add here... not only did the company try to hush it up (Wu actually said "(senior) management must not find out" - too late for that sunshine), but Wu actually intimidated the f/o and threatened him with his job if he did not sign the version he (Wu) had written.

The f/o is (obviously) concerned for his job... and the Argies are rallying around him. I think the whole pilot body at HKA should do the same. Not just for the f/o's sake, but for all concerned.

Seems to be a fairly obvious recurring theme here... and the first step towards a solution is the Singaporean management MUST GO.

Singaporean managers - For your own sakes and ours, get out now on your own initiative, before you're tarred and feathered and run out of town. You're running HKA in to the ground... and someone will get hurt if this continues much longer.

[fromthedeck]

Andy Milman is right.. (and I think I've just about worked out who you are ) ;)

EVERYONE @ HKA needs to support Argies and Diego. TRE H needs to start failing those who need too, and not give into the death threats from the swine, Capt J and O (all above Argie) need to stay solid and lead the charge to take the swine back to the pen.

and now a word from me.

To Singaswine, I will continue, with both my friends inside and outside HKA to expose you for the worthless sacks of sh*t you are. I promise each and everyone of your f*ck up is being recorded in detail and since we can't trust Eric the Bedwetter, we will instead use the media to expose you. Nothing but facts mind you... which are sooooo plentiful.:D

Current HKA pilots - Unite. Simply because if you don't, you won't have a job. There will be a incident. People will die, and you will be out of work.

HKA as it stands now, will likely kill people in the next 12 months. (and I am in NO WAY happy to write that.. its scary they can operate like this).

[itwilldoatrip]

Tooler69 and Blowjobseal failed our CRM course have we.

Point the finger at Aussies/Kiwis all you like buddy, we may be loud however as a cultural character trait that entails speaking up and out, which on the flightdeck has contributed to the aviation records that we can be pro.

Excactly my point can't miss an Aussie or Kiwi. Regarding my comment just ask the crews how they're getting on with the Kiwi's swinging the lead on long leave from ANZ in Vietnam.

[Hoofharted]

Itwilldoatrip you really are a tool. You encapsulate everything that is wrong with aviation in this part of the world. You are so enslaved by your "small man" syndrome that you lack any clarity of thought or any ability to look at this situation objectively.

The pilot of the flight fvcked up fullstop. Instaed of looking at this and learning from the situation, you choose to try and turn it into a matter of race. Are you suggesting that the this incident didnt really occur and it's being discussed just because Aussie's and Kiwi's are racist?

This is a serious incident, not a racist attack!! Unfortunately you would rather save face and let it pass unacounted into the past. When the lack of aviation standards in certain parts of the world are discussed, you and people with your mind set need to take a good long hard look in the mirror and question your motives and attitude, otherwise the industry will be doomed to continue down the same path it has travelled before.

[hkadaily]

"Regarding my comment just ask the crews how they're getting on with the Kiwi's swinging the lead on long leave from ANZ in Vietnam."

WTF???

[Blown Seal]

iwilldoa****,

from the way you are having a sook I would hazard a guess that you are also hka vigilante who posted some cry baby emails to the pilot group yesterday. You need to take a very close reread of the vast majority of the posts here and you will realise that there have hardly been any people calling for the blood of the captain concerned, regardless of the fact he should not have been in the lefthand seat in the first place, however that is a matter the chief pilot, training will have to answer to CAD. So what have the vast majority of posts been on about? Let me summarise for you: Corruption. To attempt to cover this issue up with lies will hopefully see the perpertrators charged by CAD, whether the CAD have the balls to act remains to be seen. You are the one who keeps bringing race up like a broken record, get over it, it is not the issue.

Dear Moderator,

Yesterday on the HKA company email an anonymous poster (called hka.vigilante) sent four emails claiming that the administrators were in cahoots with western pilots forming a conspiracy against some SEA posters to remove some of their posts. From as far as I could see what he was having a whine about the posts were made by iwlldoatrip and re-entry. Could you please stoop to their level for a minute to explain if they were removed by you at all; if so why were they? (if I understand correctly it was due to directly naming people in a slanderous manner)

[hkadaily]

Does anyone still have the copy of the email sent by the training captain regarding the attitude of the "Taxi-gate" captain during training?

I wonder what CAD (and media) would have to say if they knew that there were concerns about this captain and why the training manager chose to ignore this?

I see that some recent new captains are needing extra (wayyyy more) sectors to complete their training! Surely shows the calibre of new hires!

[AAIGUY]

I have all the emails. Including the copy of the slanderous pprune post by TY.
I have sent them to media. Now working on foriegn media now this is gaining steam.

[Stormsurfer]

I hear that some of the pilots at HKA are miltary pilots, maybe they are just ensuring their skills are still there whether they can still take off from taxiways. I mean, u never know if they need to re-repave the runways at CLK some day.....:ooh:

[ShotOver]

I get your tongue in cheek, but please don't categorize those guys as military pilots.

Just coz someone flew in the military, doesn't mean they are a military pilot. Even in the military 10% get through. Let's not disgrace those who really are or were military pilots.

[Kermit750]

Some serious consideration should be given to the real root of all the problems at HKA. The bloody Fourteeners. Bring em all back as Flight Op's management.
Things only started going pear shape after those loveable creatures took their retirement package a little early.
God Bless and Long live the 14ers.

[Guava Tree]

Shotover says:


"military pilots...
________________________________________
I get your tongue in cheek, but please don't categorize those guys as military pilots.

Just coz someone flew in the military, doesn't mean they are a military pilot. Even in the military 10% get through. Let's not disgrace those who really are or were military pilots."

For what its worth ,no more no less, I remember, maybe ten years ago, a 3 o'clock morning taxi ride from Changi to the crew house. Our driver chatting away with little encouragement from us since we were tired, remarked that his son had joined the Air Force to learn to be a pilot, but he had failed the course and been kicked out.
Sadly he said that the only thing his son had learned in there was that he had learned to drink and now, without any other skill, was good for nothing.
I thought I would share this with you all, even though it might not necessarily apply in this case.

[bluefish]

Hmm... I don't work for HKA, but I do operate out of HKG.

It seems to me there are to separate issues here.

1) There are problems with the HKA management.

2) Fatigue, taxiway-layout and exceptional runway procedures compared to daytime.

2 alone could have caused the incident. 1 probably contributed to the problem. 2 just just caused 1 to be brought out because of a long time pressure that has built up with what seems to be a long standing and acute issue.

Naming nationalities has nothing to do with the whole thing. I've seen incompetent and dangerous "western" airline managers also. This is clearly a case where blindness for profits has taken over sustainable and safe practices.

The real question is, what is the price for taking risks? It seems like airlines around the world are involved in a sort of experiment how cheap you can make the operation before it starts costing human lives. The sad thing about it all is that useless managers have a tendency to "show up" time after time, even after they have brought one company to the brink of disaster. All for profits, not realizing that the real profit is to be made from a sustainable operation.

[Runway101]

Two Hong Kong pilots sacked for takeoff try: report

The two were dismissed after an investigation by the southern Chinese city's Civil Aviation Department, which recommended improvements to lighting and marking at the airport, one of Asia's busiest.

AFP: Two Hong Kong pilots sacked for takeoff try: report (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h26Kw5tar0G_-wZW6MYZLBdmqjXQ)

(oops, just realized there was already another thread)