End of ATPL bank funding?

[D O Guerrero]

I've heard recently that HSBC have decided to stop funding OAA courses and I know that Barclay's have now ceased to lend for the Ryanair TR. There are also rumours of other banks very rapidly running away from all aviation related loans. Does this spell the end for the likes of the APP programme at OAA, given that very, very few people will be able to afford it on their own?
Anyone got any other information on this?

[Celtic Pilot]

Im in contact with HSBC about a loan for cabair's first officer direct course and they havnt said anything about them not doing it to me....

I wod imagine that if they stopped it for this, then they wod have pulled the plug on OAA to.

Bad times but it wnt affect trainees until after graduation when looking fior a job in which time, the ecnomy could have recovered (unlikely), or also got alot worse which looks more likely at the minute....

The only reason im goin ahead is because ive a damm good contingency plan, thank god i went to uni.....

[Aerospace101]

ive a damm good contingency plan

Quite interested to find out what your contigency is if thats good! if you dont mind sharing....

[The Nutts Mutts]

Please God (or other deity of your choice) don't let it be as a spelling teacher...

[Celtic Pilot]

Well, my contingency plan is to work as a mechanical engineer , and if you take a look at justengineers.com, you'll find loads of engineering jobs with good pay, prob better than F/O's at the minute....its prob one of the few industries that is not affected by the credit crunch at the minute.... Cuurently working as an engineer at mo, and i can say that for sure!!!

Because i spent four hard slogged years crunching maths, my english isnt that good,...

p.s i could join the spelling and grammar police, let me know how to join,,, mayb u might interview me... another contingency plan maybe

:ugh:

[ChrisLKKB]

Bloody phone text !!!

[student88]

Maybe the 'Professional' needs to be removed from PPRUNE. I must admit, I've sat reading posts saying nothing but really is there any need for 'txt' language? Even Mozilla has a built in spell checker that's easy to use. I'm not an ace at spelling but it makes it so easy!

U kno wht I mean?!?!?!?! lolz

S88:ok:

[Aerospace101]

good to hear Celtic; i was worried your backup plans were to be working in the investment banking business!!

[Bombs Away]

Yes there appears to be a serious problem with this particular disease in western europe. Doctors have diagnosed it as phone textitis and it is 100% fatal. People usually catch it in their teens and it is highly contagious. Unfortunately there is no cure at present :sad:

[Celtic Pilot]

Naw Aeropsace, thought I'd stay away, seems like a risky owl business these days,,, not that aviation is any better!!! :)


There always the S & G police though :ok:

[slackjack]

Here's a better idea... Use your engineering skills and technical brain to get into the IT industry.

It will be an industry marginally effected as IT is as needed as bakers and bread.

Plus entry salaries are about 20-25K with the everage 37K.

Much more sence! :cool:

[eikido]

Celtic, how far have you come with your certificates and ratings?


Eikido

[D O Guerrero]

Anyone want to talk about the subject of the thread? Or shall I just bin it?

[Celtic Pilot]

naw dnt like computers at all... don't get on to well wit them,, presides composite engineers are getn 27K to 30K and thats just graduates so engineering pays alot better than it used to,, not only that IT may be caught onto by everyone and allof a sudden theres a saturated market... fnk i'll stick wit engineering,,, all i have in IT is an A-level,, dnt think that will get me far as regards jobs!!!!

As i say anything outside of pro-engineer, AutoCAD or IDeas,, I dnt know oh and (PPRuNe)..lol...

im not to sure what you mean eikldo when you say certificates and ratings, all i have is a ppl, and am hopefully starting cabair now at the end of oct.... Thats pretty much it!!!

D O Guerro (mind the spelling), My first thread is related to what you asked only cabair, however there are persistant people within this forum thats demands a Masters degree in english to write... I apoligise for them people if they ruin threads, many of mine have been ruined too....

[ChrisLKKB]

The banking system is being described as being in panic, turmoil and crisis. What do you think the answer to your question is going to be ???

Reckless unsecured loans are probably going to be first to go if they haven't gone already. Even loans secured on properties are going to be on shakey ground imo as property prices fall. Would you loan someone 60K who has little or no chance of paying the money back ?

[Celtic Pilot]

i agree wit chris on this on.. I would say unsecured loans have went out the window a while ago...!! LARGE Secured loans of 70K is what the bank makes it profit on, so I dnt think they will throw it away as quickly...

p.s its funny when i was talkn to hsbc first it was only zoom had gone bust,,, two days later XL... i laughed think back...

[Celtic Pilot]

theres no place for people lik you on the forum you mean,,, all people want to do is talk about aviation the matter what language is used...

think there is a CHIP on your shoulder buddy!!!!!

[eikido]

Celtic, that is what i was wondering. I don't even have a PPL at the moment but i'm on it. I'm consdering taking up to ATPL when the markets gets better.

I'm also working as a Mechanical Engineer atm. Rated on UGS Solid Edge :}. Have you heard about Solid Edge ST?


Regards
Eikido

[Re-Heat]

LARGE Secured loans of 70K is what the bank makes it profit on, so I dnt think they will throw it away as quickly...
They do not make most of their cash on large, secured loans. They make it on many small, risky credit card loans, fees, mortgages and overdrafts.

There is little to no cash for banks to find funding for loans to extend to people looking to train as pilots. Today, interbank overnight rates doubled - banks do not want to lend to each other at all, and will not lend to wannabes on a large scale for quite some time.

You are lucky to have secured a loan in the present climate - if you have a funding offer from someone, hang onto it.

You are of course welcome to argue...

[Celtic Pilot]

eilklo.. yeah working as a CAD engineer myself,, i work on Pro-E (pro-engineer), pretty much the same as Solid Edge tho, mainly the same fucntions... Its quite handu to say the least.....lol...

I specilised though in composite in final year so im lookn maybe to change jobs for the minute to see if i can earn a bita cash,, they seem to pay well... im glad though i did engineering are you not??? PLenty of jobs seem to be comnig... might do the same as youself... ppl really good fun to learn... i enjoyed it.. just did it at the local flying club!!!


----Im not sure at all, i just thought thats what they made their money on, not a expert by any matter of means so wnt argue!!!! ,,, the interest goes up with the incresing size of loan, so money is made when people pay back around 100k for a 70K loan mayb more than a small amount of a small personal loan, so banks make profit of large loans,,,basic maths i reckoned thought that where the profit was made but im prob wrong....

whos to say tho in this climate,,, not even the experts have a clue whats going on!!!

[conerted_lurker]

I'm looking here at a screen of red. The inter bank lending rates have spiked upwards. EVERYONE, every bank, every insurer, every broker, every hedge fund is hoarding their capital.

I seriously doubt whether in 2 months time you'll be able to get a 90% mortgage on a UK house. Chances of finding someone stupid enough to lend £70,000 for some dreamer to get a ticket to fly aeroplanes that are being parked in the desert are slimmer still.

The is APOCALYPSE. OK, you won't need a foil hat, shotgun and bunker to survive but do not go thinking that things are going to go back to the way they were. They will not. Only a serious recession can squeeze out the inflation, reallocate the capital and reform the economic and financial structures enough to sort out the massive problems that have been built up for the last decade.

Learn Mandarin, move to Hong Kong and live in a tent. Do not remortgage your parents house to spend £70,000 on a piece of paper nobody is interested in in a country that is bankrupt. Next year firms like Chrysler and Ford will go bust. Small (< 250 airframes) non-global airlines will be small fry in the great unwinding.

Thousands of Millions of pounds are going up in smoke every day so far this month. Some of that money lubricated the global aviation system. Oil pressures are dropping. Temperatures are rising. Vibrations are being felt, the Master Caution is lit, the Autopilot just dropped out, there's a funny smell...

[careerpilotman]

and it smells like a gutshot knee jerk panic spreading thread on a rumour forum.

Theres two ways to look at this; positively -by that keep your head up, keep working hard and try and get through this,
or negativly.
I know which i prefer.

[Philpaz]

Blind faith is akin to stupidity.
You can put a positive spin on anything, the facts are that the industry is in a state of turmoil and only prudent planning will see you through. The likes of Cabair and OAA (also refer back to positive spin) will not help you get a non existent job. I'm sure there will be a trickle of Grads walking in to Employment but are you willing to bet your wad of cash on the chance you'll be one of them?
I personally think you'd get better odds in Vegas, save your coin and watch this space. Be one of the ones that times it to perfection for the up-turn.

[GS-Alpha]

There is no way I would be looking at an ATPL course at the moment. So many experienced pilots are going to be unemployed in the very near future. The vast majority of fATPL holders are going to have a long wait before they will be considered for employment.

D O Guerrero - good points and very well made. ;) Hypocrisy duly removed.

[ldyypd]

Guys don't you think you're doing him a bit of a disservice assuming that because he wrote in txt speak on an internet forum he is therefore going to construct a c.v. using the same vocabulary?

Txt speak is bad. I think he gets it.

[D O Guerrero]

GS-Alpha... Don't you mean affect rather than effect? And advice rather than advise? Not that it really matters, but if you're going to go on about text speak, perhaps get your own speak right first?

Perhaps we could get back on topic anyway? I would have thought that the apparent absence of bank funding would be more of a hindrance to getting a job than a preference for writing in text speak....

[G SXTY]

Anyway, back at the thread . . .

You'll have noted that Libor (the rate at which banks lend to each other) has gone silly over the last couple of days. When they are reluctant even to lend to each other, how do you think they'll view a 'business plan' to get £70k in debt to speculatively fund a commercial pilots licence? With no guaranteed job at the end of it and with a steady stream of airlines going bust?

[captain_rossco]

Our banks trying to borrow from overseas that is likely to casue the problems, I don't think the Eastern lot will see as as hugely credit worthy at the moment!

[SinBin]

I was a wannabe once, and there was negativity even in the good times. Fact is now no matter how positive you want to see things, they are in a terrible state, low houred newly qualified guys WILL NOT get any jobs for at least 3 to 4 years. That is a fact!! It is the worst downturn since Gulf War 1 with the worst recession expected since WW2(probably); do yourselves a favour and don't pay a bean in training fees. There will then be a shortage of pilots at the bottom and possibly in 3 to 4 years time airlines may start sponsoring again.

Many airlines will fold this year, even some household names! The market will be awash with high houred type-rated folk, and with the bear minimum during a period where airlines are not spending money unless the absolutely have to you're going to be waiting a long time. No-one is recruiting even RYR.

[Aerospace101]

do yourselves a favour and don't pay a bean in training fees. There will then be a shortage of pilots at the bottom and possibly in 3 to 4 years time airlines may start sponsoring again.

LOL

Thats abit like how so many people were saying DONT PAY FOR TRs and LINE TRAINING - that campaign didnt stop anyone!!

Bottom line is everyone thinks they have a shot at making it to the RHS of a jet. In reality they dont :ugh:. Hence why the likes of OAA are fully booked for months to come...

Same reason as why do people play the lottery? because they actually believe they can win it against astronomical odds.

Aanyway, back to thread; apart from all the wild speculation about loans being stopped; have any banks actually stopped pilot loans; if so which ones and show us some evidence...

[Celtic Pilot]

Was on the phone to (mrs xxxx) no names ( intials Mrs B.Green) at the HSBC today (Milton Keynes), she is the advisor for the Professional Studies Loans, anyway, she was saying that although the clamps have come down BIGTIME on who gets the loans, they are however continuing on for the mean time...just not as many granted as half a year or so ago

Makes me think that the bank must see something we dont... I am not an expert so have no place to say. Just though i'd state that they are DEFINITE still giving out the loan.

And i reckon that SECURITY IS A MUST HAVE before applying,,, unsecured loans are well gone now,,, Again im not an expert so I can't comment..Just an opinion..

[preduk]

I think you are off your rocket if you think getting a secured loan for 70k is a good idea. (Sorry to put harshly)

In todays climate, where employment of new qualified pilots is low, qualified pilots are losing their jobs, housing markets are collapsing and the pound is losing control of itself it's a stupid move!

This is a storm thats going to be overhead for a number of years, let it pass before you start getting lost.

I remember reading WWW's posts thinking he was talking :mad: about the industry, how I was wrong I never expected it to get this bad.

[Celtic Pilot]

I appreciate you advice, however I didnt say for def that i was takn the loan, was just '''enquiring''' about that loan, havnt submitted an appl form or anything and was quite ''''shocked to hear they were still handing them out..

thats all, i think the whole thing is bloody mad to be honest...so bad i begin to laugh at the news every night....however as bad as it is,, it can only get better... well i keep telling myself that when i do the shopping...lol...

Even bloody milk costs a fortune now...lol.. dont be too genurous with it on you cereal...lol...

I see AIG got pulled out there last night,,, wonder will the gov here do anything like that here...lol... well the irish gov wnt thats for sure!!!!lol...

[G SXTY]

I'm maybe a little slow, but presumably some people are still looking around for finance and still signing up for integrated courses?

Can anyone explain to me why they think that's a good idea? It's a genuine question, I really am curious as to the logic behind starting off on commercial training at the moment.

In fact, I'm more than curious, I'm baffled. :confused:

[redsnail]

I reckon they should ask my two mates who got laid off on Friday if it's such a good idea.

[Celtic Pilot]

For one, i pressume your an airline pilot already!!!!! ??

Well incase that you have forgottn what it is like to be a wannabe, its a dream that some young people have had and will always have, some people just want to do it NOW... its unfortunate but thats the case at the mo...

I guess people chew before they bite!!!!!

who did ur two mates fly for??? (out of interest just)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Reddo/G-Sxty - preserve your strength - I went blue in the face trying to save people from themselves months ago.

There is an army of Wannabe Zombies out there - no matter how fast you re-load the shotgun they just keep on coming. Moaning soft platitudes about dreams and waiving tattered loan application forms in the air. They are an unstoppable force who will not rest on the face of this earth until they reach their sacred tomb on the outskirts of Kiddlington or on its exact opposite location on the far side of the planet in New Zealand.

Resistance Is Futile!


WWW :\

[G SXTY]

incase that you have forgottn what it is like to be a wannabe

Seeing as you only registered on Pprune this month, I'll let that one pass. Feel free to browse my posting history . . . :hmm:

Yes I am an airline pilot. The reason I can still be bothered to post on the wannabe forums (unlike most of my colleagues) is because I want to help and advise youngsters and wannabes, and I really - really - don't want to see people burning vast amounts of cash when there are no realistic job prospects for some time to come.

There are a lot of sharks in the training industry. They know how much you're prepared to spend on this dream, and they will tell you what you want to hear while bleeding you dry. THAT is what I am trying to prevent, and THAT is why I am sitting here posting this, rather than reading up for my OPC.

So, my question still stands - does anyone think integrated training is a good idea at the moment?

[redsnail]

My mates worked for XL. One was a captain, he's got over 800 hours B737 command, over 2000 hours TT in jets with an overall TT of +5000 hours.The other colleague (who I did my ATPLs with at Coventry) has nearly 3,000 hours TT with ~ 2,200 hours jet. Another mate was with Zoom but he's just scored a nice Falcon job. :ok: If you intend on finishing within the next 6 months, that's your competition. If you intend on finishing in about 2 years time, they'll still be your competition as they emerge from whatever flying job they managed to get.

Airline pilot? Phh. Corporate jet pilot thanks.

My first sort of proper job in aviation was part time instructing but the recession in Australia of 1992-1993 was making it quite hard to earn any money from that so I had to keep in full time employment (lab tech) as well as bar attending and security work.

It took me ooh about 6 years to get my first full time paid job. Go on, read that again. 6 years! And was it on a nice B737? No. Was it on a nice Saab 340 or Embraer 145? No. It was on a Cessna 206. That's right. A piston.

Was it in my city I grew up in? No.
Was it in the same state as my family? No.
Heck, it wasn't even in the same time zone!!

For my first jet job I had to shift continents and start again. So I was an experienced "wannabe" in 2002. Ooh guess what the economy/job market was like then. Pretty much as it is now. Crap. So, Celtic Pilot, I DO know what I am talking about. I knew exactly what I had to do to get where I am now. Did I turn my nose up at the night ops job? No. Did I turn my nose up at flogging around in a Shorts 360 as an FO (even though I had double the experience as the captain next to me?) No.

Was I above driving all over the UK to "meet and greet", ie make contacts and visit employers? No.

Why did I do all that? From experience in another country taught me that's exactly what you have to do.

You can want it so bad it hurts etc but, if you haven't got a job then what are you going to do? Your IR scanning skills break down pretty quickly. IR ratings are expensive enough as is without having to worry about a type rating validity...

If I lost my job right now I have hoarded enough cash/made extra payments on mortgage to last me a year. I know what recessions are like.

Good luck.

BTW, I haven't said "don't learn to fly ever", I have advised to either delay commencement or go modular.

[hollingworthp]

Redsnail ... yeah, but apart from all that..... :}

[Re-Heat]

its a dream that some young people have had and will always have, some people just want to do it NOW...
Tough, they should learn to mature a little and move away from the "here and now" culture in which they think they live.

[Aerospace101]

Can anyone explain to me why they think that's a good idea? It's a genuine question, I really am curious as to the logic behind starting off on commercial training at the moment

As WWW said, 'they' are a bunch of dissillusioned "wannabe zombies". A majority of which, want their dream NOW.

I was once a zombie and nearly went into the industry at the last downturn 9/11. That for me was a wake up call - went away and worked hard; 5yrs later got me in the RHS of a jet.

[Celtic Pilot]

Good Post 'Redsnail'

You had it tough alrite!!!!

All The Best!!!!

:ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

There is an army of Wannabe Zombies out there - no matter how fast you re-load the shotgun they just keep on coming. Moaning soft platitudes about dreams and waiving tattered loan application forms in the air. They are an unstoppable force who will not rest on the face of this earth until they reach their sacred tomb on the outskirts of Kiddlington or on its exact opposite location on the far side of the planet in New Zealand.

Resistance Is Futile!


CLASSIC!

For all you wannabees who aspire to jump into the RHS of big shiney bird - read reddos post at least three times and hope you maybe beat the other guy to the 206 job......

Amen Reddo .......

Thats nothing we loved in a shoe..........

[redsnail]

Nurries. :D Most of us who advise caution etc don't want a penny/cent from you. ie No vested interest other than to make sure you don't make the same mistakes that others (or indeed ourselves) have made.
Good luck.


G-SPOTs Lost...
Thats nothing we loved in a shoe.......... :ooh:
I wouldn't mention that in an interview... :oh:

[Tootles the Taxi]

Redsnail - you should have gone integrated - could have saved yourself a lot of trouble! :}

Seriously though, there is still evidence of recently graduated 'wannabes' getting into the rhs of 320's & 737's in the last month (two guy's I know completed MCC in July, one integrated the other mod, started type ratings last week-not sponsored). Additionally, the fact that NJE is expecting to commence cadet type training in Nov (I believe you said on another thread) is still fuelling the fire. All the good advice given here by the professional community will continue to go unheeded until such time as no one is getting jobs after licence issue; I'm surprised that there are still low houred people getting jobs now in the EU but they are. As someone has said, it is a little like the lottery mentality-you only have a chance if you have a go, & this aligned with a very poor understanding of the industry will mean that wannabes will continue to be drawn in by the marketing spin.

What we don't see any measure of is how many freshly minted CPL/IR's never reach the lambswool comfort of that ellusive right-hand seat (or obtain any gainful flying employment). There must be an enormous amount of people out there who have not actually used the licence they invested so much time & money into; always remember that the selection that the big FTO's conduct is more to do with suitability for training which is not the same as suitability for employment.

Good Luck!

[redsnail]

Tootles - 'you funny guy' :}

Funnily enough, no such thing as "integrated" in Oz when I did it (more than 20 years ago :ooh: ). Whether you learnt full time or part time, it was the same licence issued by CASA. (As opposed to the former UK system before JAA).

Besides, I didn't have the cash to pay for it so I had to earn and learn. :}

Life's a journey, not a destination. While the journey's been a challenge at times :ugh: overall, it was fun and I saw a lot and made some brilliant friends.

Now for some vino, I love days off. :ok:

[Tootles the Taxi]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It was the same in the U.K. pre-JAA; the long course (509) which is essentially what we now call integrated training (when of course it's not really integrated in the way it was originally perceived under JAR-FCL 1) still resulted in the issue of a CPL (BCPL); the difference lay in the fact that you held a blue book with about 500hrs less than a graduate from a 'short' (modular) course (i.e. frozen). Materially, there is very little difference between the pre-JAA national licensing system & what we see today other than (importantly) the syllabus hours are less today than they were pre-JAR. This means either a) there used to be a lot of 'fat' in the old 509 course, b) student pilots are significantly sharper than they used to be, c) the standard of instruction given is significantly higher than it used to be, or d) the FTO's are making more profit with less flying during basic training (course prices have not decreased to reflect the reduction of hours). I'm not a cynic however so could not possibly answer that question myself! To be fair though, it's really no different in the airlines these days - ticks in boxes rather than old fashioned teaching & learning.

The real changes will be seen under EASA with the likes of proper MPL training etc. Now that is something I think the current economic downturn will have an effect on, possibly delaying the maturity of the implementation of MPL in the EU which is good news for low houred wannabes trying to find that first job over the next few years.

Anyway, complete thread drift...enjoy your vino.

[D O Guerrero]

I'm not sure that I would be taking the plunge at the moment.... I did so 2 years ago, finished this summer and am lucky enough to have gained one of the last places on a course with Ryanair. There is still a lot of risk in that I am by no means guaranteed a job at the end. But it would appear to be a better bet than signing on every week whilst worrying about skill fade and the approach of loan repayments (luckily I was able to fund much of the training myself, without the need to expose myself or my family's property to enormous risk).
However if I was in the same situation now, I think I would be inclined to wait just a little longer and see how things pan out. The situation right now is that, as someone else aluded to, low-hours pilots are competing with a very large number of very experienced and type-rated pilots. Very few companies are going to be looking for low-hours guys when they can take someone else with almost zero risk. Anyone graduating in the next 12 months from an FTO is going to find job hunting extremely frustrating.
I am also baffled as to why anyone else would be looking at doing an integrated (or any other kind for that matter) of ATPL right now.
It's all very well having dreams, but they don't pay the mortgage or keep the bank off your back. Be under no illusion - the banks' attitude is (to paraphrase Goodfellas) "can't repay the loan? **** you, pay me". Why any of them would be offering to fund an ATPL right now is a source of amazement to me.

[tredsell]

i can confirm that as of tomorrow (29th September) HSBC have withdrawn all their professional studies loans with CTC, and that they will no longer provide funding to either wings cadets or wings iCP.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Game over.


Without the credit bubble these schemes which lent out £75k to a course of 12 (£900,000) every other week are dead in the water.

I'll just put some popcorn on as this is going to get interesting.


WWW

[preduk]

tredsell,

Can I ask where you go the information?

If its the case, then we could see integrated training either going away or perhaps reducing their costs.

[RoyHudd]

I feel sorry for the folks half way through their courses on borrowed money...those who don't have wealthy relatives under-writing them that is. As for the folks trying to borrow money NOW, do yourselves and the rest of us a favour...wait a while.

[Leezyjet]

Will be interesting to see what happens to the Integrated Schools marketing in the next few weeks, knowing that their supply of students will now be rapidly drying up with the lack of funding on offer.

I wonder if we will see if they now start touting Modular as the way to go "do a bit at at time, see how things pan out" "lower financial risk" etc etc coming out in their glossy brochures. :}

I'm so so glad I chose modular, so that I don't have a huge loan hanging over me with no job prospects. I have a loan, but it is easily managable and nowhere near the amount each month that those Integrated guys need to find.

I've almost finished my training (too far into it to quit now), but I'd echo what WWW and others have said, and if anyone is thinking of getting into training, hold off for 12-18 months to see how things pan out with the industry. If you really must start, then at least go modular and do a stage at a time and then see how things are panning out before moving on.

:\

[daviojk]

I was at the Dublin Flyer show, and most of the FTO were still pushing integrated. CTC don't do modular as they train 'Airline Pilots'. Not sure how any modular trained airline pilot would interpret that :rolleyes:

I think over time they will have to start looking at modular courses to supplement the in-evitable drop off in integrated students able to to fund the course. There are alot of fixed costs, and it looks to me that these FTOs need to have a high number of trainees flowing through to maintain profitibility. But willing to stand corrected, as I am not their accountant....

Banks wont lend to each other, so I am struggling to see how they can justify lending GBP60k for a training course, plus GBP10k for living expenses, plus potentially another GBP20k to pay for a type rating (so you can get a job, to start paying off the loan). You will need a lot of equity in your house, to get a loan of this sort (forget unsecured). The era of easy credit/hard credit/any credit is over. When the dust has settled, the politicians & regulators will come after the banks to make sure this doesnt happen again, and this will have a knock on effect.

[vlieger]

For the record, and I will probably get lynched in public for this, but I managed to get an unsecured £25k loan from HSBC to start in Oxford in a few months' time. That was approved 2 weeks ago. No real questions asked, in fact a very easy interview (a university degree and real work experience helps, I guess).
Yes, I know the state of the industry and have done my homework, and in fact I agree with the general consensus about integrated training at this moment, but let's just say that I have a pretty good backup plan, that the £25k will be my only debt, and that I have pretty good contacts for a future job (not in Europe or USA).

[ChrisLKKB]

It wasn't that long ago that a 25K loan would horrify people :confused:

Fwiw, just because you have a course booked at Oxford in a few months, doesn't mean you have to go through with it. If you have a degree and a back up plan, why not put that in place now ? Presumably the back up plan involves getting a paid job and that if you were planning to start a full time course then you don't have any other financial commitments (ie mortgages etc). Assuming that's correct, why not do a part time PPL and self study the ATPLs until things settle down ? If you can't cancel the loan then you can always put it into a high interest account.

I have a feeling that there are going to be more hour building options available in the not to distant future in the form of purchasing shares in an aircraft and getting a cheap hourly rate. I've looked into it again recently and it seems a much more attractive option than it did several years ago although i'd suggest that anyone interested do their own homework on that first.

[bluelearjetdriver]

I posted this on a another forum.. I used it and it worked.


Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:

1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...

2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR

3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.

4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly you will become un-current very quickly and secondly you learnt how to fly so FLY.

5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook

6)Listen to WWW and Redsnail for they are wise!!!


Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money to pay for the flying. Also the military is not training that many either.

2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.

3) See this credit crunch, and my advice as your saviour in a couple of years time. It will make it easier


That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described so I KNOW it works....

Thank you and good night!!

[heli_port]

confirmed HSBC have withdrawn loans for OAA, CTC, Cabair today...

http://img2.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0021.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-winking-smileys.php)

[Celtic Pilot]

may i ask how you found this out?????

it just the person in charge of giving out the loans at Milton Kenyes is away on holiday... I know for a fact cause i'll to have a meeting with her tomarow,,,,,

just curious ????

:ok:

[vlieger]

Any source for that, heli_port?

[Farrell]

confirmed HSBC have withdrawn loans for OAA, CTC, Cabair today...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/quartermilefinal/aliens.jpg

[Celtic Pilot]

Funny.....

BUT YOU ARE WRONG,,,so please get the facts before you post!!!!!!

I know fact because I was talkn to them yesterday in person!!!!

But I will grant you that they might be stopping them SOON enough!!!

[ford cortina]

So it might be a good time to get yourself in a feckin load of debt then!:ugh:

[Celtic Pilot]

who said it was a good time??????

[ford cortina]

Well, Celtic Pilot, you seem to want to spend a feckin great lump of money with Cabair......

I am not going to start debating here, I have tried to give advise to others all to no avail, its your money, glad its not mine. I went Modular, took 4 years or so to get a job, on the wrong side of 30 and yes it is nice being paid to fly a jet. but thank god I am not in 70K+ mountain of debt.

Right now there are a lot of pilots, with experience on the market, that will continue, from airlines going under and the likes of eaglejet, the problem is there are going to be less and less jobs. A friend of mine, who is a very qualified instructor cannot find a instruction job and he has Jet time as well, so now is not a good time to go integrated.

Rant over.

[G-BFUN]

I agree, if you was coming out with a fATPL now it would be a very bad time. It does not seem though that people are thinking ahead. May be this a very good time to start training (maybe starting next year sometime) as lots of people have told me in this industry is that it is cyclical butalways going up. In this case, you wouldn't be qualified until end of 2010/beg 2011, things may be on the up again then. After all FlyBE and Ryanair have predicitons of starting recruiting again next year. I know you can not go into this industry with rose-tinted glasses but you have to have a certain amount of optomism otherwise how are you going to get through the ground exams never mind the IR!
You have to take educated risks either mod or inte and then just go for it.
Hopefully for everyones sakes we'll see an upturn in the industry next year, even if it is a slight one.

Anyway I suppose if everyone didn't start training and you was one of the few that did, it would be less competition in two years time or so when you are qualified!

Just a thought! :)

[Celtic Pilot]

that point crossed my mind as well G-Fun.... Some valid points in your post

It funny you say that, the woman in HSBC said the same yesterday, that it is a very nad time for tose who have finished and need to start the repayments... If I start now, repayments wont be needed until Feb 2011.... Not to mention the salaries will have increased by a bit in that 2 and half years...

No offense Ford Cotina, but i'd listen the finance expert before yourself.... The repayments might be big, but It something im willing to do, to get there, and ive got a good backup plan so at least theres something in the bag at the end....

You do have to think ahead do the line, what may happen or what may nto... when it does end and airlines do recruit then there will be a huge explosion of student pilots... think of that for competition....

[BelArgUSA]

You guys talk about banks funding your ATPLs...
No wonder Wall Street has biiiig problems...!
xxx
:*
Happy contrails

[ford cortina]

Fair Comment Celtic Pilot, just one thing though. The Finance Expert in HSBC works for them and after all they are in business, they make money by loaning people money.

My Sister is very high up in the Coop Bank, she just left HSBC for a better job. She is a financial expert and I take her impartial advice as she has no intention of selling me anything at all.

G-BFUN, you may have a point, but if there is a lot and there is, of other pilots out there who cannot get jobs now, what makes you believe that they will disappear in the next few years. I am working overseas as well as a lot of others, when the market picks up a lot of these pilots will be looking to move back here, thus cutting down on avaiable jobs for those of you just leaving training. I am not saying don't do this, just use common scence and maybe go modular then you will blah blah blah blah blah I might as well bang my head against a wall.
FC