PDA

View Full Version : Do you fall into the profile: Air Accident Checklist (read before making posts here)


Farrell
14th Sep 2008, 06:32
I have been reading Rumours & News over the past few days and now, on the verge of self-harm, have decided to put together some guidelines for the muppets among us.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b140/quartermilefinal/report.jpg

And please don't post me any drivel about people just being concerned. You can use your neighbour's fence or the cashier at Tesco for that.

(Endorsed by PPRuNe Mod Management)
Far too many posters seem to think that anything with the mention of "air" in it is therefore a candidate for posting in this "pilots" forum. Rehashed press releases or articles about airlines or airports should go in the appropriate forum where those with an inclination to become moist about these things can let everyone else know they are enthusiasts and explain how they think it should be done with their breathless nuggets of advice and insight. :rolleyes:

bucket_and_spade
15th Sep 2008, 02:43
Hit. Head. Nail.

B&S :ok:

old-timer
15th Sep 2008, 02:57
I totally agree, I've grown very tired of the inane & often VERY insensitive speculation that appears regularly, maybe time for a 'filter' process.
Meanwhile, I don't read the website so much, especially about incidents.

limp_leek
15th Sep 2008, 05:57
When a large aircraft augers in and there is a massive loss of life then the incident should be posted here for informational purposes and then the thread locked.

No discussion, no debate.

Two years later it can then be unlocked when the final report is published.

L337
15th Sep 2008, 06:25
When a large aircraft augers in and there is a massive loss of life then the incident should be posted here for informational purposes and then the thread locked.

I disagree. I have learnt a huge amount from some of the very excellent posts that have been made on PPRuNe over many years regarding the "current" incident or accident. Just to post and lock the thread reduces the forum to a newswire service.

It is not the discussion that is wrong, it is the "inane & often VERY insensitive speculation" that drags a thread down.

JW411
15th Sep 2008, 07:59
I have said it before many times but how I wish we could get pprune back to being a forum for professional pilots and get rid of the deluge of uninformed rubbish that gets spouted nowadays.

Globaliser
15th Sep 2008, 08:03
It is not the discussion that is wrong, it is the "inane & often VERY insensitive speculation" that drags a thread down.I'm only a non-pilot SLF, but I endorse this. Some of the accident threads have provided the most interesting reading and the most illuminating insights into the way things work for pilots. But it has become increasingly difficult to find the time to wade through the threads to filter out the complete rubbish - even if some of it is so obviously complete rubbish that I can discern that unaided! - and find the golden nuggets from those posters who actually know what they're talking about.

verticalhold
15th Sep 2008, 08:35
The voice of common sense.

Bloody good post Farrel:ok:

VH

pilotbear
15th Sep 2008, 08:58
what a warm and secure feeling it must give you all to be part of the self-righteous professional bus driver club club:ugh:

TyroPicard
15th Sep 2008, 09:27
This reminds me of another thread I read a few years ago - why does it keep happening? It's been a dark weekend for Farrell - deepest sympathy for the self-harm.
I eagerly await the moderator's report.
TP

EGHH
15th Sep 2008, 09:30
Don't forget the inevitable quabble about the number of fatalities, the baseless blaming and hailing the crew, the baseless blaming and hailing of the manufacturer/type and the repeated request for a "pro's only forum", whatever the hell that is.

The thing that makes me most uneasy is the apparent total disconnection from reality that so many people seem to have when they discuss these things in such a cold way.

Actually, are they mad or is it me? http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8017/wackoil3.gif

HotDog
15th Sep 2008, 09:38
Tyro Picard, if I read you correctly, this one says it all:
(Endorsed by PPRuNe Mod Management)
Far too many posters seem to think that anything with the mention of "air" in it is therefore a candidate for posting in this "pilots" forum. Rehashed press releases or articles about airlines or airports should go in the appropriate forum where those with an inclination to become moist about these things can let everyone else know they are enthusiasts and explain how they think it should be done with their breathless nuggets of advice and insight.

Obie
15th Sep 2008, 09:47
Well, the mods will well and truly knock this thread on the head, unless, of course, Farrell is a mod!

Flintstone
15th Sep 2008, 09:59
Well, the mods will well and truly knock this thread on the head, unless, of course, Farrell is a mod!

So you read the whole post then?:rolleyes:

Nice summing up by Farrell, let's hope this thread doesn't deteriorate into exactly the sort of thing his checklist is aimed at.

peter we
15th Sep 2008, 10:10
Add a comments

1. Post self righteous, moaning complaints about journalists and the media for getting facts wrong and mis-understanding the airline industry.

2. Complain about journalist for being ambulance chasers/vultures/scum when they try to learn more the airline industry.


Seriously, the moderators should do more to delete unwelcome posts. But why are so many news posts (except accidents) moved out of the rumours and news section?

Duck Rogers
15th Sep 2008, 10:12
But why are so many news posts (except accidents) moved out of the rumours and news section?


"Rehashed press releases or articles about airlines or airports should go in the appropriate forum..."

tonker
15th Sep 2008, 10:30
That checklist comes from another website sick of all the "i reckon it was" rubbish.

Bit cheap and underhand to put your own name on it.:=

learsimmer
15th Sep 2008, 11:58
A bigger burden for the moderators, to be sure, but some standard replies to posters when their posts are removed, like the stickers that photo developers put on sub-standard pictures, might be educational. For example, the "out-of-focus" sticker:

Your posting has been removed because it contains expressions of condolences which is not the purpose of this forum. Please remove them before posting again.

or

Your posting includes criticism of the media reporting of this event and has been removed because the ability of the media to report such events is already known to be fallible and weak, and complaining about it is not the purpose of this forum. Please avoid superfluous comment about media reporting from future postings.

or

Your posting has been removed because it contains a reference to the number of fatalities in this event which is irrelevant to a discussion of its cause.

and the "under exposure" sticker:

Your posting shows a lack of understanding of commercial pilot practices/flight dynamics/aircraft construction/ATC procedures/approach charts which would leave you vulnerable to unpleasantness from more skilled/learned/experienced posters. Please use the internet to research the term [insert relevant term here] and ensure you thoroughly understand the concept before considering whether your intended post makes a positive contribution to the thread. Bear in mind that teaching the principles of flight is not the purpose of this forum.

Then there's the "poor framing" sticker:

Your posting includes the phrase "I don't have time to read all the postings so far, but..." or equivalent. Your posting has been removed as a result because you have not checked to see if the content of your post has already been covered and if you are duplicating postings by others who have taken the time to read the whole thread. Besides, we're all busy here, and claiming to be too busy to read what others have written makes you appear pompous and self-important while denigrating the contributions of other posters and may invite negative comment from them. Feel free to post again once you have read the complete thread and you are sure that your posting adds something to the discussion.

When they repost simply omitting their apology that they haven't the time to read the whole thread:

Your posting has been removed because it contains a question that has already been answered on this thread. Please read the whole thread and redraft your post accordingly before posting again.

You have stated as if it were a fact something that has not yet been determined to be such by any of the official investigatory bodies and consequently your post has been removed. Please re-draft it posing it as a question instead of a statement, or quoting your source(s).

Nick

doubleu-anker
15th Sep 2008, 12:07
Farrell

Who made you king, then?

Eboy
15th Sep 2008, 12:27
Rumor:
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts
2. gossip; hearsay
3. a continuous, confused noise; clamor; din

rumor definition |Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rumor)

Cheque List
15th Sep 2008, 12:32
Agree with you Duckie. Everything except the crashes & airline failures gets sent to other forums! All that's left in R&N is spotter bait!.. what do you expect! :rolleyes:

Cheque List
15th Sep 2008, 12:38
OK, slightly more constructive.. what about a new Forum:

"Incidents & Safety"

CL

lomapaseo
15th Sep 2008, 12:44
Learsimmer

a well thought out list:ok:

I especially like the last one

You have stated as if it were a fact something that has not yet been determined to be such by any of the official investigatory bodies and consequently your post has been removed. Please re-draft it posing it as a question instead of a statement, or quoting your source(s).



I try to be tolerant of opinions, even stoopid ones, but I don't like misrepresentations of fact claiming to support these opinions when they are intended to afix blame.

As a subset of this, I really don't mind open discussion of unconfirmed facts (citing sources or opinions), it's the linkage to blame that pizzes me off.

I do hope that the forum management can adopt some of these suggestions.

lomapaseo
15th Sep 2008, 12:51
doubleu-anker

Farrell

Who made you king, then?

When I first read this post I thought that it was a nasty put-down appropriate for Jet Blast.

Upon further reading and close examination of the poster's name I now realize that it is a very humerous double entendre.

BTW what is the meaning of your posted name :)

Davaar
15th Sep 2008, 13:05
(a) If the large commercial aircraft touched down flapless on the last twenty yards of runway, open the report with extended discussion on the probability that windshear, line squall, or other meteorological condition prevented its touch down on the first third of said runway.

(b) If (a) is not available, base the discussion on unconfirmed reports that a clog-wearing tsetse fly once went morris dancing on the leading edge of the port mainplane, thus distorting the surface and creating the aerodynamic imbalance that made said late touchdown inevitable.

(c) Pending a full report on (a) and (b), acknowledge the folly of any inconsistent interim speculation.

Rananim
15th Sep 2008, 13:05
Providing there is no direct criticism of the crews involved and the speculation has a kernel of reasoning and intellect,the discussion of an accident/incident is vital to our understanding of how error chains can develop in such an insidious and deadly way.There is no more important topic for pilot or aviation pro.You will derive more insight into airmanship and judgement by reading an accident report than any SOP/CRM manual.I sincerely believe that.
So whilst I managed a wry smile at Farrell's sarcasm,I also think its a cheap shot.As somebody said who made him Lord Muck?

BOAC
15th Sep 2008, 16:19
That checklist comes from another website sick of all the "i reckon it was" rubbish.

Bit cheap and underhand to put your own name on it.:= Do you have a link, tonker? If true, perhaps Farrell should add 'Avoid Plagiarism' to the checklist?

Farrell
15th Sep 2008, 17:26
Would like to see the link as well.
Can hand on heart say that the above is my own work.

Farrell

BOAC
15th Sep 2008, 17:30
Well, I enjoyed it whatever. I have not seen it before.

What happened to the post regarding 411A? Surely we are not THAT sensitive here, are we?

larssnowpharter
15th Sep 2008, 17:37
) If (a) is not available, base the discussion on unconfirmed reports that a clog-wearing tsetse fly once went morris dancing on the leading edge of the port mainplane, thus distorting the surface and creating the aerodynamic imbalance that made said late touchdown inevitable

This would be a failure on the part of the operator to install bugwipers would it not?

Disgaceful.

Farrell
15th Sep 2008, 17:39
BOAC:

The original thread is here....I'm not sure how the thread got split.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/343113-air-accident-checklist.html

dope05
15th Sep 2008, 18:13
Simple------ make the site only available on subsciption and use the money to employ moderators on a full time basis----- The PPL IR site is only available to paid up members

Capt Pit Bull
15th Sep 2008, 18:13
Needs a final paragraph.

"Don't forget to act like a smug know-it-all condescending git."

BOAC
15th Sep 2008, 18:22
BOAC:

The original thread is here....I'm not sure how the thread got split.

Air Accident Checklist (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/343113-air-accident-checklist.html)
- aha! I suspect Daddy mod has been tidying up baby mods' toys:)

cml387
15th Sep 2008, 20:13
Let's all hope that the template does not have to be used too often.

ECAM_Actions
16th Sep 2008, 11:36
Eboy: I agree. Whilst I've no doubt threads can get out of control, as you rightly point out rumors are exactly that - speculation that isn't necessarily backed by fact.

If the Mods/Admin particularly, don't like some of the things being discussed in a forum of that title, maybe they should consider one that is more appropriate?

ECAM Actions.

RogerIrrelevant69
16th Sep 2008, 12:16
Inspired Farrell, inspired.

I couldn't count the number of new air crash related threads I have started to read but promptly abandoned due to each and every one of those checklist items. Perhaps a case of a "little knowledge is dangerous".

Maybe that's why I never bother commenting on air crashes in PPRuNe or in real life except to reply "well it will be interesting to see what the official investigation comes up with". Leave it to the professionals.

Latte tester
16th Sep 2008, 15:25
While there are some very knowledgable people on this site, I am always amazed at some of the 'knee jerk' comments regarding crashes, mostly from 'armchair pilots' or maybe from those just trying to increase their post totals.
Countries employ accident investigators for a reason, why not let them come up with cause factors instead of sitting there sucking back a beer and wildly speculating.
Just my opinion.

VAFFPAX
17th Sep 2008, 10:30
I like Learsimmer's suggestions. They make sense. :-)

And Farrell, classic. Really. :-)

S.

Jerricho
17th Sep 2008, 14:31
Farrell, you're a big suck.

There's a dude on another thread who might pay a million for it if it's your first time.

rog747
17th Sep 2008, 16:25
goodness u lot are right loada bitches init

Jerricho
17th Sep 2008, 16:42
Is Jerricho gonna have to slap a bitch?

nippysweetie
17th Sep 2008, 17:52
Professional Pilots* Rumour** Network***

*Not exactly; the pros are leaving because of the presence of rumours and rumour-mongers

**Sorry, none of them any more; they encourage speculation and attract amateurs like flies to smelly stuff

***Sorry again. No rumours so the amateurs have vanished with the pros.

Sigh. Guess I can always keep up to speed with Sky News.

perthtrained
17th Sep 2008, 18:30
Please forward this to aviation expert David Learmonth of Flight International. Many a good man has been libelled by his incorrect b-----it!!

x213a
16th Jan 2009, 01:54
Resurrected...

I think post #1 of this useful thread will be needed once more:ok:

V2-OMG!
16th Jan 2009, 05:20
I would concur with the comment that a forum set up especially for accidents would allow the unwashed masses such as myself to exercise all points on the Air Accident Checklist......with glee....(TIC).

CoodaShooda
16th Jan 2009, 05:29
Interesting to see the Australian Newspaper On-line today ran the Hudson River accident with a link labelled "See what the professionals are saying about the crash".

No bets for guessing the link took you straight to the thread in R&N.

Brian Abraham
16th Jan 2009, 16:36
See what the professionals are saying about the crash
But do they know which ones are the professionals? One "professional" says radar keeps the birds out of your way. Never knew that, you can always learn some thing new when you listen to these "professionals.