U206 missing - Northern NSW [Archive]

Hasselhof

15th Sep 2008, 04:04

From the ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/15/2364816.htm)

No survivors in light plane crash

The wreckage of a light aircraft which went missing yesterday in northern New South Wales and Southern Queensland has been found.

There are no survivors.

The wreckage was found 55 kilometres north-east of Scone.

The Cessna, with two man and a woman on board, was en-route from Sydney's Bankstown airport to Brisbane's Archerfied Airport.

It was last seen on Sunday after refuelling at Scone in the Upper Hunter.

Mick Spinks from the Australian Maritime Safety Authority says police are now on the scene.

"A search helicopter has located the wreckage of a Cessna 206 aircraft, which was reported missing yesterday," he said.

___________________________________

Condolences to the families of those involved :(

Lasiorhinus

15th Sep 2008, 05:01

Seven people in one day?

:(

Capt Wally

15th Sep 2008, 06:13

Am sure all aviators thoughts are with the ones left behind to wonder how come.

Life is so precious:sad:

CW

vee1-rotate

15th Sep 2008, 06:48

Seven people in one day?

:(

Eeery that one aircraft was a Slingair (Heliwork) aircraft and the other, an ex-Slingair aircraft...

Condolences to family and friends:(

The Hill

15th Sep 2008, 07:34

Very sad.....condolences to family

PlankBlender

16th Sep 2008, 03:30

Very sad indeed, a young family wiped out, and probably the only useful thing coming out of this tragedy is that is can serve as a classic example of how very bad decision making will get you killed:

Flying VFR (with no flight plan) into known bad weather (Scone Aero Club president Neville Partridge: "No one else was out there yesterday, I don't know why you would want to fly on a day like that.")
Flying over some of the roughest terrain in the country in such conditions
Flying an aeroplane one is unfamiliar with under the above circumstances (media reports indicate he picked up the recently purchased aeroplane to relocate it to his home aerodrome)

Any one of the above conditions by themselves are cause for concern when planning a flight, but all three of them together are a recipe for disaster, and this not only with the benefit of hindsight!

I know this may sound harsh, but having your family and especially your child on board renders the PIC decision making process in this case totally incomprehensible. The pilot by virtue of his training and experience must have known the kind of risk he was exposing his loved ones to. Now we will never know why he thought he could contain that risk, and any such speculation would be lacking respect for the departed, but it should serve as a stern warning for each of us pilots who are weighing up any given day whether to fly (especially VFR) into marginal weather over treacherous terrain.

Before you flame me in response, please understand this was written solely to further our understanding of PIC decision making and in the spirit of avoiding such tragedies in the future.

I have myself flown in the area of the accident not so long ago and have turned around as the cloud cover was much lower than forecast and my options began to reduce. The terrain at the time would still have made a precautionary landing possible and most likely survivable has I pressed on, but the feeling that I was approaching the limit of my abilities despite lower terrain only a few miles ahead, made me turn towards known blue skies. I missed a speaking commitment as a result, but I am still here to tell the story and I am confident that I made the right decision at the time.

Reading the news stories, I could not help but think back to a brilliantly written book called "The Killing Zone" (Amazon.com: The Killing Zone: How & Why Pilots Die: Paul A. Craig: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X)) which analyses aviation accidents, unfortunately the case at hand is an almost perfect blueprint for the classic killer scenario :sad:

Jabawocky

16th Sep 2008, 03:53

Plank Blender

Interesting you make that post and reference that book.

I am reading it at the moment. I made a similar comment on another forum and got banned for it!:ugh:

Seems that this young family paid a hefty price and we could all learn from it.

At least PPRUNE is not so naive to think we can not sensibly comment on hear without the fear of being banned!

Reading a book at the moment on loan from another member here called the Killing Zone.

Now, fresh PPL....C206, pressure to be home, showing off the plane, Storm cells and rugged country.......wrecked plane and all dead.

No need to speculate here.

Reads like a chapter out of the book.

I feel for the other children, what an afternoon for them. So sad.

Bob Murphie

16th Sep 2008, 04:54

PlankBlender;

Not having a flight plan did not cause the accident, I'm sure.

Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country. 55 Km north would put it near sight of Quirindi. There is no indication that the aircraft was tracking direct Scone to Gold Coast over tiger country.

Being unfamiliar with that particular aircraft does not mean the pilot was inexperienced and where does any report mention anything about his level of training? He may well have had 5000 hours on 210's or 206's for all you know.

Did you read the "sticky" at the threads index?

Jabawocky

16th Sep 2008, 05:43

Bob, did you see any of the witness and AusSar reports?

Think you will find if you dig a little deeper Plank Blender has raised some very vaild points, based on fairly accurate and reliable witnesses. Which I might add is an unusual occurrence with the media!

J

PlankBlender

16th Sep 2008, 05:55

Not having a flight plan did not cause the accident, I'm sure.

What's your point? I put that comment in brackets for a reason, but to elaborate why I mention it: they would have stood a chance to be found in time to survive, had anyone made it through the initial impact. Just another way to mitigate your risk on a cross country trip, and in my view a mandatory item if on tour with passengers as a sole aircraft in dodgy weather.

Not to mention that the absence of a flight plan prompted an otherwise unnecessary deployment of a massive SAR party (Bladeslapper • View topic - Missing aeroplane (http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1420&p=12296)) which is in my way simply a thoughtless disregard of scarce SAR resources.

Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country. 55 Km north would put it near sight of Quirindi. There is no indication that the aircraft was tracking direct Scone to Gold Coast over tiger country.

The crash site is widely reported to be around 30nm north east of Scone, near Hanging Rock, which if you look at WAC puts it in high country.

This article (Three found dead in plane wreck (http://www.watoday.com.au/national/three-found-dead-in-plane-wreck-20080915-4gwi.html)) quotes the topology of the crash site to be a hillside at around 4500 feet elevation, which matches the WAC. If that's not tiger country I don't know what is :=

If you plot Scone-Casino on a WAC, this will put Hanging Rock right in the flight path. He headed straight for the hills in bad weather! He did have an escape path to lower terrain in the west, but that's of little use if the weather closes around you as you quickly run out of options completely.

Being unfamiliar with that particular aircraft does not mean the pilot was inexperienced and where does any report mention anything about his level of training? He may well have had 5000 hours on 210's or 206's for all you know.

I stand by my point that you increase your risk somewhat flying an aeroplane you have just purchased and therefore you know little about. No matter how much 200 series time the pilot had, I would categorically state I would never have attempted that route under the circumstances, even in a type I have tons of hours on! Jaba seems to have read somewhere he was a fresh PPL, although I cannot say I have any other sources for that statement.. Combining it with the other risk factors makes the trip undertaken a huge risk.

Did you read the "sticky" at the threads index?

Yes, and I am writing this with the express intent of helping other pilots understand crashes, in the spirit of trying to educate each other to make better decisions in the future.

Do you actually disagree with my central point that the decision to go for the pilot is indefensible? :eek:

ozbiggles

16th Sep 2008, 06:00

I would caution against guessing at the causes. I admit I'm in the camp that does have an opinion on the cause but I DON'T KNOW therefore won't comment on what I believe it is.
I did see a reporter on 10 make a good statement as hard as it is to believe but he did mention it could be fuel, it could have been a fuel problem, it could have been engine trouble, it could have been the weather (It did make me open my eyes and at least question my initial thoughts).
As I said I'm probably with the majority in what I think is the cause but I DON't KNOW and nobody else here KNOWS either.
What I do know however is it is a sad tragedy.

PlankBlender

16th Sep 2008, 06:11

ozbiggles, I think you're missing the point. We're not speculating about possible causes, we're analysing the circumstances of the flight and the decision making to conduct such a flight.

I think it is safe to conclude that the PIC attempted a very high risk flight, and he paid the ultimate price.

The more people read this discussion and remember it the next time they plan a flight, the better!

Sunfish

16th Sep 2008, 06:25

This is so bloody sad. Condolences to the families involved.

The Australian reported this morning that the pilot had just 100 hours, bad weather, bad country, a big new aircraft, no flight plan and passengers.

I do not know if any of this is true but If what was reported in the Australian is correct, then I would just shake my head in disbelief on so many levels.

Brian Abraham

16th Sep 2008, 07:39

Is not the first, and unfortunately won't be the last. While we may shake our heads we need to remember the old saw "there but for the grace of God go I".
Now be honest chaps/chapesses, have you not at some point been caught out and managed to get back on the ground knees a knocking. Any one who doesn't have his/her hand up either doesn't under stand the question or is fibbing. We have to fill the bag of experience with out emptying the bag of luck. When we get a licence it is but a licence to learn, some of us get to survive our mistakes, and sadly for some it is the last flight they will ever make. Its all very well to read the educational material, crash comics etc but its not until you get into the real world and start flying and gaining the experience in making those judgement calls that things start to gel.
Saw a 206 come into Queenstown ex Hobart many, many years ago with three young couples on board and shrubbery hanging from the airframe. Flying up a valley low level beneath the weather to be faced with the end of the valley, no room to turn around so forcing a climb into the cloud and hitting the trees on the ridge line. Airframe undamaged but 3 young guys and their 3 girl friends lived to tell a story. Could have all been so different couldn't it?
Part of the trouble is the lack off mentoring and supervision available to a new minted PPL.

Horatio Leafblower

16th Sep 2008, 08:01

very vaild points, based on fairly accurate and reliable witnesses.

He was the only bloke they could get hold of on the day. I would love to say more about "reliable witness" but the rules prevent me from doing so... :rolleyes:

JDQ was not the only aircraft to leave Scone that morning - I departed, in a 206, 60 minutes later.

The wx (cloud, anyway) wasn't that bad but the downdrafts in the lee of the hills was savage -we had full power at Vy to remain level at 7,000' over Murrurundi.

I had watched them refuel from my office and watched his son and another kid there to meet them run around the airport, just as my kids do.

The last 24 hours have been full of "there but for the grace of god" thoughts - the only real difference between us and him was an IFR flight plan and 2,500' more altitude :(

PlankBlender

16th Sep 2008, 08:40

HL, what was the cloud base like on the day? Were you above the clouds in your IFR flight?

As any IFR trained pilot will know, the difference between VFR and IFR can make a crucial difference, not only in the ability to get out of a situation (e.g. clouds in a valley) that would be a dramatic problem for a VFR pilot, but also in terms of the level of skill and education of an IFR trained pilot.

Horatio Leafblower

16th Sep 2008, 09:50

Planks -

It was a typical day of unsettled pre-frontal spring weather, nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone who learnt to fly at CATA/NASA/UNFS would remember what the westerlies can be like in August/September... it was stronger, but smoother than a normal cracking westerly.

The cloud was a wall of water to the SE - we cancelled a local survey job because the vis was 3000m in rain with a cieling about 800'. It was as per the Tempo issued for Scone that day.

It cleared up abou 10 mins before old mate arrived with cloud sitting on the hilltops and otherwise SCT 025. We could see daylight between the cloud and the gaps in the range.

When we got to TOPC there were plenty of CU/SCwith heavy showers to the west, but to the east (toward MSO) it looked pretty clear.
Spent half an hour with the ATSB this afternoon. :(

I would go out on a limb and suggest that VFR ->IMC was NOT the problem - when I went past I could clearly see the general area where the wreckage was later found.

Jabawocky

16th Sep 2008, 11:30

HL

AusSar folk also made some observations, presume they had managed to review some radar history and isolated a 1200 paint.

I think your sumary of how it went is most likely correct.

J

Capt Wally

16th Sep 2008, 23:01

'HL' I feel for you also at the moment, I too was in yr stated position many years ago & that being you witnessed the ill fated flight/people not took long before their demise. I felt quite upset when I hd the same experience. (Spoke to an Ag driver after doing some work on his plane & only an hr or so before he crashed & died).

There will be many questions asked here & thru official channels over the next few months re this lattest accident but one thing as others have said in other ways here planes will always crash, they don't crash themselves generally they need input correct or otherwise to end a flight in dissaster.
This lattest accident just goes to show despite all good intentions we humans make mistakes judgement wise day in day out, this time this guy got caught & paid a very high price for it. Lets trust that this event doesn't fade too quickly before yet again someone else goes along the same path

RIP our fellow aviator for yr mistake/s hopefully will save others!

CW

framer

16th Sep 2008, 23:33

If he really did have only 100hrs then the point about a lack of mentoring is a good one. Have there been attempts to set up an official mentoring system in the past? ie if you have > 3000hrs or something then you can put your details forward to a web-site/database and a fresh ppl can be assigned to you. He/she can simply telephone you the night or week before a flight , or ten minutes before departure, and discuss weather, route, fuel, threats to the operation etc.
A lot of older pilots would feel good about providing some guidance and surely it would help the less experienced pilots.
What do you think? has it been done before ? Is it pie in the sky stuff?

Capt Wally

16th Sep 2008, 23:49

'Framer' now that's a good idea in general

Am not too sure how it would work as people these days seem to be forever busy but none the less a good basic idea. The only possible down side with it though would be that the mentor after giving valid advice to a low houred pilot seeking help via this system for say as an Eg. not to go (or advised not to go) due WX etc. & this can only be ever advice would feel damn awful if the worst ever did happen as in the case in point here with this current thread. Still worth further disscusion am sure.

CW:)

RadioSaigon

17th Sep 2008, 00:22

Have there been attempts to set up an official mentoring system in the past?

Yep, when I grew up they were known as Aero Clubs. They usually had excellent mentoring facilities and systems available and functional. Now they are called Aviation Academies...

tinpis

17th Sep 2008, 00:37

The only possible down side with it though would be that the mentor after giving valid advice to a low houred pilot seeking help via this system for say as an Eg. not to go (or advised not to go) due WX etc. & this can only be ever advice would feel damn awful if the worst ever did happen as in the case in point here with this current thread.

Lawyers.:*

BPH63

17th Sep 2008, 00:45

framer - as a "fresh PPL" i think that would be worth looking at.
As Capt Wally alludes to you would have to consider various scenarios to see how it would work.
In the end the responsibility rests with the pilot with hand on throttle

dude65

17th Sep 2008, 00:56

Who knows who this bloke spoke to prior to his departure from Bankstown. Perhaps some more experianced heads could have made him think twice.

Network 10 in Brisbane spoke to his business partner who stated he had received his PPL "about 6 months ago". The pilots flying experiance will come out in the investigation so it's not for anyone here to speculate.(Good weather over winter means he could have logged 100 plus hours for all we know)

The mentoring thing is an interesting comment. Low hour PPl's like myself sometimes need a bit of a brainstorming session before we go flying. It's certainly a way of reinforcing what we already should know. That's where Aero clubs come in handy.

On the other hand ,some days it's just better to hop in the car and go home.

Jabawocky

17th Sep 2008, 01:42

I have found when boating, motor racing, and flying I made it my job to identify a couple of good mentoring folk.

Over time as my experience base grew and I outgrew some I replaced them with others. Flying mentors for me include a few PPRuNers and other airline/commercial folk.

Its a good idea, but how you formalise it...... I think Tin hit the nail on the head:sad:.

J

Capt Wally

17th Sep 2008, 02:08

some good points re mentors being posted & no doubt this thread will diverge away a little from the core reason as to why we are here but maybe just as well 'till we find out the facts of the case in point. Low hrs, bad WX a somewhat reasonable high performace craft means a recipe for disaster.
'tinpis' that's a good question/statement lawyers would only come into play if some 'adivce' was given fm a mentor & proved wrong but this would be hard to do in this case as all are deceased sadly.
Aero clubs as has been mentioned is a good place for mentorship in some basic ways but I think a lot of today's budding pilots tend to go it alone a lot as the instructors themselves are 'green' also in a few & possibly more cases, no disrespect to that fraternity of our field. Again without further disrespect to instructors one needs to have done the hard miles over many years doing God dam awful charter jobs to be able to pass on perhaps useful hard earned info. Besides after we get a brand new licence what's the first thing we want to do? go flying regardless of what some might advise against irrespective of their experience level.

CW

RadioSaigon

17th Sep 2008, 02:50

but I think a lot of today's budding pilots tend to go it alone a lot as the instructors themselves are 'green' also

You are entirely missing the point CW. Aero Clubs of old were chock-full of very experienced PPL's, CPL's and Airline pilots who maintained membership of the Clubs for largely social reasons. In many cases, these experienced pilots were also aircraft owners and had their machines available to approved club members, operated under the auspices of the Aero Club. When I was training, it was a rare day indeed that none of those individuals was present. They were always fully involved in all Club social and training events both at home and away, and were a tremendous source of anecdotal information, sage advice, wisdom and when necessary discipline.

Many of the self-styled 'aviation academies' of today can trace their roots back to some of the now defunct Aero Clubs of old -particularly in NZ. In some cases they stripped the old clubs (and their members) of whatever assets were communally held for the members' benefit in the rush to climb aboard the Government gravy-train of Student Loan funded pilot training. In that particular endeavour, many have been successful. The training they offer meets every guideline laid down by the Government (via the regulator) to the letter, at the best price they can manage in an extremely competitive environment. Their 'finished product' is trained absolutely to and within an inch of, passing a flight-test, no more and no less.

What they (and their students) miss out on is the experience of flying with these experienced people on 'away' trips to places their training just won't take them, the conversation at regular social events where matters of concern can be discussed in a non-confronting situation, the 'hand-holding' of perhaps following a more experienced pilot to a place you haven't been before or the ability to just discuss your plans with somone 'in the know' before you go.

Whilst the inexperience of instructors is a matter oft-discussed -and an issue worthy of discussion in many cases- it is my opinion that the greater loss is the lack of formal and informal mentoring offered in the Aero Club training of old. Whilst the 'end product' may not have been totally 'work-ready' at the far end, I reckon they were far more rounded pilots and closer to work-ready than those being churned out today.

Jabawocky

17th Sep 2008, 02:51

Gooday Wally

Besides after we get a brand new licence what's the first thing we want to do? go flying regardless of what some might advise against irrespective of their experience level.

That may well be true, but it is not the way I started out. Mrs Jaba actually commented on my conservitive ways when i first started out, and how now I will go tackle much uglier conditions than I would when I had only 100-200 hours in the book.

Its all about the confusion between ambition and ability (yours and machine). The ongoing problem for all of us is knowing where that line between ambition and ability lies.

J

PlankBlender

17th Sep 2008, 02:58

Great idea such a mentoring system :D It would probably make sense to establish a website to enable people to make contact, or even as an addendum to pprune (we're all here already anyway..). The pprune profile allows for some details of experience to be put in, shouldn't be too hard to get a little section of the site going that would allow people to offer/seek general advice.

I wouldn't worry too much about the legal implications of mentoring, a simple disclaimer signed by all or as part of the statutes of a club/website membership, that the PIC is ultimately responsible for his or her actions and all aspects of planning, would do nicely. Moral/ethical consideration are a different kettle of fish, but really within the realms of responsibility of the individual offering to provide advice. I would say quite simply if one has the experience, it will more than likely do more good than harm to share it with someone who'd otherwise have to do without it.

Aero Clubs are probably alive and working in more rural areas, when I look at Moorabbin for example, there's really no infrastructure for newly qualified pilots, unless you happen to be affiliated with the Royal Victorian Aero Club, and when I was a member to train there (which didn't last long because of a couple of abysmal instructors), the Club or its members and activities weren't that visible sadly. Seemed like a bunch of old men (no offense, getting on myself:sad:) just using the facilities to go flying, without much of a community feel.. I may be wrong here as I didn't spend too much time there..

maxter

17th Sep 2008, 03:28

I am a great believer in 'Mentors' but I am not that certain this is always practical. Would you like to be giving advice to a 'low houred pilot' on a go/no go situation over the phone/remotely.

What should happen is that these pilots should be encouraged to seek out advice/help from those more experienced and somehow the the notion that 'fortune follows the brave' that we have all seen creep into PPL's especially, needs to be dispelled by words and our examples.

I have 2 very clear memories/learnings. (amongst many others)
1) In the mid 70's I was forced to land at Mudgee due weather/fog on a VFR flight to Port Macquarie. It was my first encounter with George Campbell. The quiet way he took the time to lead me through the flight I was planning, over a cup of coffee, has stayed with me to this very day as clear as if it was yesterday. In summary Don't be in a hurry, look carefully at your track re terrain etc, nothing is important enough to die for. (G.A wise) He encouraged me to do a plan via better terrain South and compare the time. Big looking dog-leg on the map with little time penalty and a lot easier on the stress level. (I was planned over the tiger country)

2) 1981 approx, going home, from a wedding we all enjoyed, and under severe pressure from 2 passengers that needed to be at work next day. Departed Kempsy but decided weather not suitable for coming NVMC portion, despite the forecast, and returned. Graphically brought home to me when next morning I hear of the light plane crash at Barrington tops. Even my passengers agreed nothing was that important.

These are the sort of messages that needs to get through to G.A. Especially at the stage where thay have enough hours to be over-confident but not enough to to understand the risks they may be taking.

We need more George Campbells for PPL's to learn from as they progress through their flying experiences. His example is what I would call great mentoring.

BPH63

17th Sep 2008, 03:51

a experienced mentor of sound judgement I would expect only give suggestions to the effect:

"yes - i agree with your decision to go +/- but..."
or
"i wouldn't be doing that if i was you because......"

Atlas Shrugged

17th Sep 2008, 03:58

Murrurundi Gap is a fairly well know escape route from the Hunter region and once through opens to fairly open country

It is and it does, however, following that road to the right, then left, trying not to get tangled up in the powerlines on one side of the gap with barely enough room to swing a cat is not the place to be even in CAVOK conditions, when there is strong wind.

VH-XXX

17th Sep 2008, 04:15

I once watched a very young and green PPL working towards his CPL, depart my field for Point Cook, complete with unsuspecting parents on board, in 2km vis with cloud on the ground at the half way mark at the advice of a local Crop Duster / legendary pilot from the local area. He told the "student" to go "over the top" and use a DDTL approach (Dive Down and Take a Look).

Mentoring doesn't always work as I found out.

I knew what the weather conditions were as I just came from there (and shouldn't have).

Trojan1981

17th Sep 2008, 07:11

From the Australian

September 17, 2008
A BUSINESSMAN who brokered the sale of crash victim Scott Menrath's light plane told yesterday how the inexperienced pilot boasted "I'll be right" when he tried to warn him against flying in poor weather.

The recovery of the bodies of Mr Menrath, his partner Monique Fraser and their seven year-old son, Daniel, was put on hold yesterday because of difficulty in reaching the rugged crash site.

Aviation experts were questioning why the 39-year-old chose to cross notorious Barrington Tops - a route considered off limits to light aircraft - during a storm.

The single-engine Cessna 206 slammed into a remote hilltop in heavy weather on Sunday as Mr Menrath, Ms Fraser and Daniel flew home to Brisbane hours after taking possession of the $89,000 aircraft at Bankstown airport.

Veteran pilot Don Hodge, who brokered the sale of the six seater aircraft, yesterday told The Daily Telegraph he tried to warn Mr Menrath against flying in heavy weather but the pilot, who had just 100 hours of experience, seemed determined to pick up the aircraft after spending over two months trying to raise finance for it.

"I said if the weather's bad don't come to Sydney but he just said, 'I'll be right'. He seemed confident ... over-confident. He told me he had flown military planes and I thought he was a lot more experienced," Mr Hodge said yesterday.

"But an experienced pilot wouldn't have left."

james michael

17th Sep 2008, 07:28

Mentoring - without being unkind to large GAAP, they seem to have a predominance of low time CPL working their way to the airlines by instructing. No criticism but their experience locker is still mainly theory.

I started at a GAAP in the 70's and had first hand experience of three instructors in three months.

Moved to a small 'ma and pa' school run by people who loved instructing and later over a brew or beer after would impart the wisdom gained by many years flying and instructing. First time I went outback they pumped me full of wise info that made it a great trip, first of many.

Might have saved my life a few times I reckon. They are still operating although have moved a distance away but I still fly there to do my BFR - because I'm still learning, and they are still mentoring.

And, yes, I know there exist some high time people at GAAP here and there - problem is tracking them down.

Capt Wally

17th Sep 2008, 07:30

'RS' I don't believe for one minute that I am missing the point, nearly 30 yrs of flying (for me) doesn't mean that I am that dumb !`Still yr entitled to yr say here along with everybody else. The aero club of today I believe isn't like it was years ago & again todays ppl for Eg is in a hurry to get to the top rarely stopping to ask or listen (& take heed) of perhaps sound advice, but that's just my opinion.

Hi Jaba:-) Conservative is good, safe but like all things in life how does one gain experience without some level of risk?
The surfactant between man & machine will always be tenuous, not as 'viscus' as we would like it to be but on the whole given good habitual safe ways works well enough time & time again, for most.

'XXX' you also bring a good point here. How does a newby know the difference between sound advice & plain strupidness on behalf of the so called mentor? There in lies one of the challenges to the scheme.
More to come I hope
Good to see some spirited responses here:ok:

CW:)

flypilotboy

17th Sep 2008, 07:44

Aero clubs are still the place to obtain the advice/mentoring that has been suggested. But I think the advice should come from a instructor or better yet the CFI (if you can get a hold of them). See the problem for a low time PPL is figuring out what is the good advice and what is utter BS! Yes there are a lot of good PPLs in aero clubs but there are also a lot of down right dangerous ones who are only alive due to blind luck. As may instructors know there are also pilots that just can't be told "I'll be right!". Experience is learning from our mistakes, the ones that don't kill us that is!

Flying Binghi

17th Sep 2008, 07:56

Mentors, re go/no-go questions

IMHO, if you gotta ask the question, i.e. your training and experience has'nt already answered it for you - DONT GO

AnyGivenSunday99

17th Sep 2008, 08:43

As low time pilots, it would be safe to assume we have just shelled out a huge wack of cash to our respective flying schools - would it not be wise to call those who know us best if we are in doubt IE our instructors?

They have flown with us for hours, rapping us behind the head with a WAC ruler when we c**k up, and so are aware of most of our strengths and limitations. I do agree however that at some of the "academies" many of the instructors are green horns themselves, so why not call and ask to speak to a senior instructor? After all, I think it would be wrong of them to take all our money and not be there when we need them most. Sure we arn't giving them cash anymore - their advice may be the only free product you can get for the years of poverty you have endured...

Fortunately enough for me, when I have been faced with the go/no go question, one call to any of my previous instructors has always put my mind at ease as they would talk through the situation to assist in making the decision. This has definately saved my life once or twice. I will continue to ask for advice whenever i am concerned about a situation i am facing, and when I am worried about doing the right thing. (even if it is just about the nasty rash... )

Common sense goes a long way. One thing i would suggest though to our more experianced guys - we dont want to hear about how brave you are and that we should "harden up". PLease listen to our concerns and don't make us feel like we are stupid. We are worried and we need your expert advice. We know you are busy, but if we feel so unsure that we had to bother you, you can rest assured it is serious. Your reassuring words and advice might just save our lives.

Thats just my two bob's worth.

Happy landings,

AGS99

My thoughts are with the families of all involved. A great guy, and such a tragedy. May they rest in peace...

VH-XXX

17th Sep 2008, 09:14

The problem is that mentoring only really works in a school or club environment or perhaps a well populated airfield.

Where mentoring doesn't work is for the pilot that gets their licence and goes off and does my own thing. I fell into that category, got my licence and had say 50 hours, bought a plane and went off and did my own thing. There was no club, limited flying mates and no real direction (until later on).

Aviation requires you to often hear things and interpret these things for yourself to gain exposure and experience. If you miss that, you miss out on a lot.

ravan

17th Sep 2008, 10:23

Very good FB. Reminds me of my old boss...used to say " wherever there is doubt in your mind, there is no doubt". Similar sentiment to yours I think.

sms777

17th Sep 2008, 10:29

There is also another thing called egoism. I used to think that you needed at least 1000 hours before you became invincible. Today it seems you only need 100. Just think of the poor buggers situation. Buys the airplane, anxious to fly it home, all his mates hanging out to see it, the day comes, weather turns crap but he has to prove a point because now he is an experienced pilot.
It is a shame he has taken innocent lives with him.
I just hope this is a lesson to all low time and upcoming pilots.

R.I.P. :sad:

sms777

17th Sep 2008, 10:52

I totally agree with you but they do not teach you experience in flying schools. Like someone said earlier your fresh pilot licence is only a licence to learn. Lots of pilots tend to forget that in the first few hundred hours.
My log book hours is well into four digits but i am still not afraid to ask a more experienced pilot for a second opinion sometimes.

:ok:

framer

17th Sep 2008, 11:50

Yes there are a lot of good PPLs in aero clubs but there are also a lot of down right dangerous ones who are only alive due to blind luck.
I wasn't suggesting that PPL's mentor anyone.

As low time pilots, it would be safe to assume we have just shelled out a huge wack of cash to our respective flying schools - would it not be wise to call those who know us best if we are in doubt IE our instructors?

Thats fine if the instructors are experienced enough. I was envisaging the mentors having between three and 25,000 hours.Also, the type of advice I imagine giving would be guidance as far as making sure the low time pilot had thought of everything that needed to be considered. A helping hand in identifying the threats to a particular flight. In the end a go/no go decision always lies with the PinC, after all, they have been issued the licence.
I'm a 737 F/O with no instructing time at all ,but I have a few thousand hours GA and regional turbo prop command time.I consider myself pretty inexperienced but I feel like I am now reaching a stage where I could give sound advice to someone with little experience. The majority of instructors now days don't have much experience. ( I know some have huge amounts but the majority don't).
I fly with captains every day who make me realise I am just at the beginning of building up experience and decision making skills and I imagine many of them would take a keen interest in someones progress if this scheme was available.
Weather is one of the biggest issues for low time pilots. Commercial pilots who have been flying into as many as five different centers in one day for years on end can look at a synoptic and a TAF and drag so much information out of it in five seconds that it would blow most of todays instructors socks off. That has got to be worth something right there.
I have a lot of respect for instructors, I think many of them would be great mentors. I also think that there is a wealth of knowledge and experience belting around in Dash 8's, Embraers, 737's etc etc that is not tapped into when it could be.
Framer

Capt Fathom

17th Sep 2008, 12:09

I used to think that you needed at least 1000 hours before you became invincible
No one is invincible !

Just think of the poor buggers situation. Buys the airplane, anxious to fly it home, all his mates hanging out to see it, the day comes, weather turns crap but he has to prove a point because now he is an experienced pilot
Maybe that is what you would do!

framer

17th Sep 2008, 12:13

Network 10 in Brisbane spoke to his business partner who stated he had received his PPL "about 6 months ago". The pilots flying experiance will come out in the investigation so it's not for anyone here to speculate.(Good weather over winter means he could have logged 100 plus hours for all we know)

Is this part of the problem? Please correct me if I am wrong but I think this poster was suggesting that if the weather had been good over summer and he had logged "100 plus hours", then he would be more experienced than we are giving him credit for.
If I have interpreted that correctly then what passes for "experienced" in some peoples minds really is a concern.

The more I fly the more I think that creating a safe flight is mainly about being able to identify a) what is different from normal
and b) what is a threat that needs to be considered.
Maybe the mentors could just tell the low time pilot their opinion of the things they need to keep an eye on for that flight and the low time pilot can do what they wish with that information.???

sms777

17th Sep 2008, 12:38

You have obviously missed the sarcasm in my quote. I do know that no one is invincible.
My second quote. That is certainly not what i would do. That is sadly what he has done. Read my post below my first one.( #58 ) Then you may understand what i am trying to say.

dude65

17th Sep 2008, 22:58

Framer

I'm certainly not saying that 100 hours is experianced.

What I was saying is that when I made that post no one on here knew what sort of hours he had and in what sort of aircraft. The fact he'd only had his PPL for 6 months doesn't mean he was a low time pilot. He may have had the opportunity to log 100 hours 206 time over Winter. For some people ,that number of hours would give them an attitude of invicability. For others it would be viewed as the start of a steep learning curve.

Which of these catagories this bloke fell into will soon be apparent to all

(It's since been speculated that he only had 100hs. total. That's another story)

framer

17th Sep 2008, 23:50

Dude65, Ok I think we may be on different wave lengths, I understand you were not saying he is an experienced pilot if he had logged 100hrs. But The fact he'd only had his PPL for 6 months doesn't mean he was a low time pilot. He may have had the opportunity to log 100 hours 206 time over Winter.

this is where we differ maybe, I think that does make him a very very low time pilot. Just a different opinion I guess.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, I thought it might be a good example of how different people have vastly different ideas of what a low time pilot is. Cheers.

bushy

18th Sep 2008, 00:42

These days most of us think we are in a hurry all the time. Do we really need to be?? That kills lots of us.

I learned early in my flying career that I should be very wary of both bad weather and bad airstrips.

I scared myself with both of these things too many times.

dghob

18th Sep 2008, 02:00

Every year an increasing number of cruising yacht owners depart points south to spend weeks or months in north Queensland waters, mostly between April and October. Some have wide experience, others are first timers. There is a cruising mantra that says you should give yourself plenty of time to get home safely, and above all don't be governed by a timetable so you can wait out the weather. The reality is that too many overlook or ignore this advice and as a result there are many tales around the marinas of how close they came to losing their yachts (and maybe their lives) because they had to be home for work or other reasons and set off in deteriorating conditions. Sometimes yachts and lives are lost. I guess my point is that whatever our calling and interests the same rules apply and the same mistakes can be made, and there but for the grace....etc

boardpig

18th Sep 2008, 02:05

I've also learned a great deal about bad weather coupled with get there "itis". Unfortunately this was from getting myself into them in the first place.

Its a shame we learn these things by scaring the sh*t out of ourselves, but perhaps this is a somewhat necessary evil?

Sad outcome in this case.

BP.

Blue Sky Baron

18th Sep 2008, 02:05

I have on a few occasions decided not to depart home, even after obtaining my MECIR and have on several occasions elected not to return home or even landed and given it away for the day when I have felt the conditions are unacceptable. The ironic thing that I have noticed is that these nights where I have elected to stay on the ground have been amongst the best times I've had while away. Not sure if that is because I was happy to have made a 'good' decision, (in my view), or if that's just the way it is! :E

Learnt early in my flying days that 'gethomeitis' is a seriously bad dude.:=

Reminds me of the saying:

"Tis better to be on the ground wishing you could be in the air, that being in the air wishing you were still on the ground"

I firmly believe that by making the choice to not risk yourself, passengers and aircraft shows good character and is certainly not a sign of being a wimp as I once heard a high time 'hero' tell a low time PPL. :ugh:

BSB

Capt Wally

18th Sep 2008, 02:31

My very first instructor (IO, no names though) told me that as a PVT pilot you never HAVE to go flying meaning don't if you don't feel comfy about it. Slightly diff commercially but even at that level nothing is ever that urgent esspecially in my line of work.
'BSB' actually having a MECIR can be worse than being just VFR SE. Such a 'ticket' can create a false sense of safety & we all know that being in solid IMC in lousy WX in say a light twin is an awful environment.
Humans most vunerable trait is 'curiosity', that combined with aviation & lousy wx is a recipe for dissaster.

Lets hope that the investigation of this lattest event proves that poor wx & perhaps poor pilot decisions where the result & not an airframe failure.

CW

Jabawocky

18th Sep 2008, 02:50

CW

It may come up with both..... an airframe failure caused by the other:sad:

J

2longhk

18th Sep 2008, 03:56

Very sad end to what should have been an enjoyable beginning to this families aviation life.
Sometimes we get ourselves into a place we don't want to be and learn from the experience.
A colleague once told me " the boss will yell and scream for a day if you don't go,or turn back, but if you bend the a/c you'll never hear the end of it...
Twenty years later I still spend more time arguing with the latest C.P. why I decided to keep my butt (and pax) on terra firma.
Whilst I have to make my own decisions on the day, I still discuss events, seek advice from my mates (a la mentors) to confirm I'm making good decisions.
The best advice here is if it doesn't feel right-IT AINT RIGHT.
Ring the instructor,mentor,ask the local refueller if you want, but remember to trust your basic survival instinct and say no if you don't feel happy. The sky will still be there tomorrow.

Blue Sky Baron

18th Sep 2008, 03:57

Wally,

Agree with what you say there, however I live by a couple of rules:

I'll fly at night and I'll fly IFR but I wont fly IFR at night! (Don't fly often enough to keep current enough for that)

I won't take off if the destination TAF has more than 6 lines in it!! (If the weather is that bad why would I want to go there anyway?)

I know my limitations and as a non commercial pilot I have the choice to go or no-go. I enjoy my flying and have no desire to fly in cr&p conditions.

BSB

ForkTailedDrKiller

18th Sep 2008, 04:13

Its not that hard!

Safe flying is about discipline and risk management.

Fly by the rules, be they VFR or IFR, and within your pre-defined personal parameters and you will most likely arrive safely at your destination - occasionally a little later than you might have liked.

Dr :8

Bob Murphie

18th Sep 2008, 05:27

To summarise this thread to date.

1)The Pilot was qualified and experienced to attempt this flight.
2)The Pilot probably met the criteria of most insurance Companies of 100+ hours to hire a similar on line aircraft for a similar flight.
3)We assume there was no flight plan lodged, but don’t know enough to assume a flight note was left with anybody.
4)If a plan were lodged it would have assisted the SAR response earlier than a flight note.
5)Somebody activated an alert when the aircraft failed to arrive at its destination, possibly a flight note holder? Neither of the above would have any influence on the events that occurred. It appears no ELT was activated.
6)The Pilot made it North of Murrurundi Gap so there was probably an option to divert to Quirindi over friendly country. This was not taken up.
7)The Pilot appears to have planned the flight along the spine of the Great Dividing Range. Something most here would not contemplate given the circumstances. Some make the assertion that the flight was “high risk”.
8)There appears a strong possibility that there was mechanical turbulence on the day. As a result of strong Westerly winds.
9)Nobody has posted the forecast of the day. It would appear that there was no likelihood of a VMC into IMC scenario.
10)It appears there was no known weather that would prevent a VFR flight.
11)There is no evidence that the Pilot was responsible for, nor intended to “waste scarce SAR resources” in planning a flight without a flight plan, nor was there evidence of “the deployment of a massive SAR party”.
12)Some believe that a Mentor system would have had a positive influence and possibly have prevented this crash and others in the future.

I can offer no more than concur with the previous post plus make the point that a pilot is never experienced enough for any flight. I am still learning after 43 years.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, pity the Pilot in this case had none.

eagle 86

18th Sep 2008, 05:52

"The least experienced sometimes press on when the experienced turn back to join the most experienced who never got airbourne."
GAGS
E86

Horatio Leafblower

18th Sep 2008, 07:11

Bob

I think a bit of idle discussion and a few "what-ifs" are helpful, but your post is incorrect in a number of material points and is helpful to no-one. :=

9)Nobody has posted the forecast of the day. It would appear that there was no likelihood of a VMC into IMC scenario.

How do you know that?

There was crap wx.

There was strong wind.

There was high terrain.

6)The Pilot made it North of Murrurundi Gap so there was probably an option to divert to Quirindi over friendly country. This was not taken up.

7)The Pilot appears to have planned the flight along the spine of the Great Dividing Range. Something most here would not contemplate given the circumstances. Some make the assertion that the flight was “high risk”.

So MUI Gap doesn't really enter into it. In fact, the wx west of the range was much worse than on the range itself.

QDI was copping a bucketing, so even IF he was heading west and even IF he could get over the Gap, it would have been out of the frying pan into the fire. In fact the strike-finder picture on weatherzone.com.au showed a dense line of strikes to the west - so going east was a better option than west.

Sunfish

18th Sep 2008, 07:22

I pulled the pin Sunday morning thirty minutes (5.10 am) )before the Dawn Patrol because I didn't like the weather showing on radar on the other side of the Bay.

1. I had a cross hired Warrior that I had not flown before. Unfamiliar audio setup, steam driven radios.

2. I had a passenger.

3. Landing light inoperative, strobes not fitted.

4. The forecast said moderate to severe turbulence below 5000 ft.

Anyone care to work out the different ways those cheese holes could line up? If I'd had a familiar aircraft with strobes, Garmin 430 and everything working I would probably have gone but when there are two or more unknowns, danger signs start flashing, at least for me.

Capt Wally

18th Sep 2008, 07:43

'Sunfish' yr still here to tell us of yr wisdom because of yr wisdom, well done:ok:
Like I said earlier, nothing is ever that urgent (ref to flying) when it comes to aviation!

'Dr' yr wisdom is spot on, only trouble is we are dealing with humans here, the rules the written rules as you mentioned are B&W not what's in every pilots mind! What one pilot will do re rules in any cat. IFR or VFR another may very well do differently as we have seen recently, there in lies the real risk.
Where you bin Dr?:)
I was at 'busted hill (YBHI) the other day & out of the open spaces in an almost desert like landscape came a plain coloured V35, damn things breeding like rabbits!:ok:

CW

framer

18th Sep 2008, 07:47

Sunfish takes off in his unfamiliar plane and shortly thereafter gets a thumping from moderate turb. He asks for a clearance to track clear of a line of CB's along the coast in an attempt to find smoother air, the passenger is a bit unnerved, and starts talking over a transmission requesting Sunfish to change frequency, his workload is high now, turb now severe and 80% of his brainspace needed to keep the a/c from overspeeding and at a reasonable height. He makes the readback though and starts to fiddle with the unfamiliar radio, just then severe turb makes his head hit the roof , pens and maps everywhere and the pax sqwarks loudly, sh1t what was that freq? he's on the heading, thats right yeah...., can't make contact with centre, finger trouble with new radio and turbulence (doesn't realise he's just turned the vol down) , about this time a Q400 crew hitting the arc at 250kts get an RA off poor old SF who has busted airspace. everyone lands ok but SF vows to follow his gut instinct as he fills out the incident form that ATC faxed him.
Ha Ha sorry SF, I have no idea of whether or not that is even remotely possible but thought it would be fun to try;
Anyone care to work out the different ways those cheese holes could line up?

Couldn't work the lights in anywhere sorry :ok:

vee1-rotate

18th Sep 2008, 07:49

Sunfish, what was the rego? sounds like one i was flying not long ago, cant remember which though...

sms777

18th Sep 2008, 07:58

That's just brilliant "framer"! Ever thought of becoming a writer of air disaster stories?
I can just picture you and Tom Clancy riding it out in a stormy night over the Pacific someplace.
Keep'em comin'! I am getting entertained ;)

:ok:

ForkTailedDrKiller

18th Sep 2008, 10:54

Where you bin Dr?http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

I bin up Kow'yama way Wal, vist'n ma brudders, eh!

Dr :8

Wombat35

18th Sep 2008, 19:54

Mod's,

I'm not a troublemaker, but I think you have made a mistake closing the thread on the 206...

By closing the thread, it's going to drift off into the depths of PPRune never to be seen again and there are so many points and learning’s yet to come from what's happened.

Another family is dead. Why, who knows, but by going through all the possible scenarios some low time pilots might just think again before heading off on their last flight....

Sure the thread drifted off a bit at then end, however there were still some good points being raised and you could do worse than let it run for a few more day's...

I know it's your rules... but what's the harm?

Much Ado

19th Sep 2008, 02:44

Guys the thread was locked because it had wandered off topic into 'mentoring' but having discussed it with the mod who locked it I am going to reopen it. If you want to discuss mentoring perhaps a new thread where people who might not read about a crashed 206 but would like to contribute to a mentoring thread/mentoring might see it.

Capt Wally

19th Sep 2008, 02:56

'MA' I think it was wise to reinstate this thread.
So far 'drifting off' has been totally harmless. I've been labeled a serial thread drifter by Mods in the past (that's fine I accept that) but I think you guys with the 'big stick' tend to loose it a little from time to time, this type of discussions (which attracted a lot in a very short time) are/is very worthwhile as even if only opinions & that's all they are at the end of the day, they can only ever be made up of personal opinions sometimes with facts & a LOT of drifting 'cause in aviation one thing leads to another always.
The core of the subject couldn't be talked about too much more anyway until the facts are in but to keep the chat going 'mentoring' was a good sideline & well worth contributing too in the meantime.
Also as far as low time pilots are concerned whom might benifit from threads such as this the most would be far more likely to be attracted & interested to such a heading as this original one for perhaps advice & ultimately improving their own knowledge than a heading named 'mentoring'.
Obvioulsy this is just my opinion as it is always & again I thank you guys for seeing some sense in this case.

CW:ok:

desmotronic

19th Sep 2008, 03:34

A family is dead, no doubt their loved ones will read this.

Some of you should show a bit of respect. None of you have any idea what actually happened and most are hardly qualified to comment anyway.

RIP.

Horatio Leafblower

19th Sep 2008, 03:53

Thanks Desmo

I'll just add that to the 5-page statement I made for the coroner.

Defenestrator

19th Sep 2008, 08:21

I agree Desmotronic. It's just disgraceful. Scary to think that I share the sky with so many inconsiderate and thoughtless windbags. Nuff said.

May the victims Rest In Peace.

D.

The Hill

19th Sep 2008, 10:10

I think everyone is saddend by this... but if a low timer reads this and makes him/her think twice, that could be a life saved out of what is a very tragic accident

Brian Abraham

19th Sep 2008, 10:19

A family is dead
We know
no doubt their loved ones will read this
Only if they choose to
Some of you should show a bit of respect
I don't see anyone showing anything but
None of you have any idea what actually happened
No we don't, but many of us have been around long enough, and seen friends die, to be able to connect some dots, right or wrong.
most are hardly qualified to comment anyway
Does 59 years in aviation qualify some one? Many people posting here whose opinion I value greatly, even though they have been in the game for far less a time than I. Wally, FTDK, Jaba, Bob Murphie, eagle 86, Sunfish among others. Some of us have been around the block more than once or twice, and been close at hand when friends have met their end, and don't need lectures on conduct when another of our band of brothers meets his end.

ozbiggles

19th Sep 2008, 10:49

Yes you do BA
Maybe you have joined the dots correctly
What are you going to do if you haven't?

sms777

19th Sep 2008, 11:12

Quote:
"Maybe you have joined the dots correctly
What are you going to do if you haven't"

Well...in that case you read on, because there always will be someone else like the ones BA mentioned who will join the dots correctly. We do not learn everything in aviation by ourselves, we learn from each other. That is what this thread is about, no disrespect intended towards the families involved just trying to prevent more innocent lives lost by discussing how it could have been avoided.

I am with you on this one BA.

framer

19th Sep 2008, 11:19

Geez there are some sensitive people around here. If the family did read this then they would find a whole bunch of people,( most of whom didn't even know their loved ones) expressing concern, and actively trying to prevent such things happening to others.
It's hardly disrespectful, and aviation is built on discussing accidents til the cows come home trying trying trying to hit on an angle that can make things safer.

Desmotronic, Defenestrater and Ozbiggles, if you are struggling with this loss, then I sympathise and indeed can empathise with you.

Capt Wally

19th Sep 2008, 11:49

Okay guys/gals we need to keep a professional tongue about this. Nobody & I mean nobody would want to cause offence to any of the ones left behind after this tragic event but healthy debate/discussion is vital so that we as humans who DO make errors can learn from others mistakes.
'The hill' yr comment is spot on as well as BA's words, if these words make someone think twice about such a flight in similar pending conditions then their deaths have not been in vain.
RIP for sure to those who lost their lives but lets not 'rest' 'till we can ALL find out the true cause & learn from it!

CW