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Bell 222
14th Sep 2008, 02:20
Sky News reporting that a Boeing 737 carrying 82 passengers and 5 crew has crashed near Russia's city of Perm in the central Ural mountains.

Maxan_Murphy
14th Sep 2008, 02:29
Early reports on BBC world news state that the aircraft involved was a Aeroflot 737. Reports also that all 87 on board perished.

Maxan_Murphy
14th Sep 2008, 02:36
From RussiaToday : News : Plane crash claims 87 lives (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/30400)
September 14, 2008, 5:09 Plane crash claims 87 lives

More than 87 people have been killed in a plane crash near Perm in central Russia. Boeing 737 belonging was traveling from Moscow. 82 passengers and 5 crew members were on board. Seven children are thought to have been among the passengers. Emergency services say no one survived the crash.

The Boeing 737 aircraft was on a flight operated by Aeroflot Nord, an Aeroflot subsidiary company.

Emergency services say the plane was approaching its destination at an altitude of 1,800 meters when communication was lost.

The aircraft fell in wasteland and caught fire.

apaddyinuk
14th Sep 2008, 02:46
Going on an assumption here but if its SU821 the Aeroflot website claims
"In flight
Estimated landing time: 05:03 "

So at 0646 local time now that is not a good sign.

B747-800
14th Sep 2008, 02:52
BBC NEWS | Europe | Passenger plane crashes in Russia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7614951.stm)


Passenger plane crashes in Russia


A passenger plane has crashed near the central Russian city of Perm, Russian emergency officials says.
The Boeing-737 was en route from Moscow and had 82 passengers and five crew members on board. All are feared dead.
Communications with the plane were lost as it was making a landing approach. The wreckage was later found outside Perm, which is located in the Urals. Rescuers are at the site. The cause of the crash is not known.

wozzo
14th Sep 2008, 02:59
Russian news agencies also say it was flight 821. Contact was lost when a/c was at height 1800m.
Addendum: According to RIA Novosti, the plane tried to do an emergency landing (ekstrennaja posadka), it came down near an industrial area in the vicinity of Perm.

RollNow!
14th Sep 2008, 03:32
Most recent reports state the possible casualties at 88 as per manifested pax / crew.

aerotransport.org
14th Sep 2008, 03:48
Involved is 737-500 VP-BKO according to local source
/A


http://www.avsim.su/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2008/post-25-1221349103.jpg

kwick
14th Sep 2008, 03:51
From Yahoo News:

Plane crash in central Russia kills all 88 aboard
9 mins ago
MOSCOW A plane carrying 88 people has crashed in central Russia, killing all on board, an emergency official said Sunday.
The Boeing-737 traveling from Moscow to Perm went down around 3:40 a.m. Sunday, Emergency Situations Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova said.
The plane, operated by a division of Aeroflot, was on its approach to land in Perm when it crashed into an unpopulated area of the city, she said. A total of 82 passengers, including seven children, and six crew were on board, she said.
She said there was no damage or deaths on the ground and investigators were working to determine what caused the incident.
There was no indication of a terrorist attack, she said.
Perm is about 750 miles east of Moscow.
Perm emergency official Valery Tibunov said in televsied comments that the plane fell onto train tracks just a few dozen meters (yards) from an apartment building.
Russia and the other former Soviet republics have some the world's worst air traffic safety records, according to the International Air Transport Association.
Experts have blamed weak government controls, poor pilot training and a cost-cutting mentality among many carriers that affects safety.
Sunday's crash was the second involving a Boeing 737 in the former Soviet Union in the past month. A Boeing flying from the Central Asian nation of Kyrgystan to Iran crashed shortly after takeoff on Aug. 24, killing 56 people.

brak
14th Sep 2008, 03:54
It is Aeroflot-Nord (Aeroflor subsidiary out of Archangelsk). The plane only delivered to them in May, until then flew with Air China.

wozzo
14th Sep 2008, 05:10
Ria Novosti reports:

According to security officials, the plane caught fire in the air and "blew up". A member of the police in Perm said, that the cause for the accident may be a non-functional and burning engine. Contact to plane was lost at 3:10 Moscow time (5:10 local time), when it was at a height of 1800 meter.

Pugilistic Animus
14th Sep 2008, 05:22
Experts have blamed weak government controls, poor pilot training and a cost-cutting mentality among many carriers that affects safety.Experts speculating:=----I hear the whistle of the BS train:*

Time for a PpruNe accident investigation :zzz:

Lester:E


PS.
my heart goes out to the victims and their families:(--a plane crash is always a sad and tragic event---- therefore I hope some restraint can be shown here so that we can gather the truth and prevent another occurrence

PA

gearguy
14th Sep 2008, 06:24
If the aircraft has a VP-Bxx registration, does that mean it is registered in Bermuda? or is it a special Russian registration? Not related to the occurrence, just curious.

Thanks,

gearguy

BelArgUSA
14th Sep 2008, 07:08
It appears that the Russian Republic refrains from registering "western build" airplanes with its national RA-xxxxx type registry. I do not know the status of VP-BKO, which is probably leased by Aeroflot.
xxx
By the way, Aeroflot North is not a subsidiary... It is a "directorate" of Aeroflot, as Aeroflot domestic structure consists of separate regional "directorates" which are based in various Russian cities.
xxx
A few years ago (2005) I ferried as captain, the first 4 "TransAero" 747-200s from USA storage to Moscow Domodedovo. These airplanes were ferried (and now operate) with a Bermuda registry VP-Bxx, and their status is "leased" to TransAero, a Russian charter airline.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

eu01
14th Sep 2008, 07:12
The Trans-Siberian Railway, which was damaged in the accident, had been cut off on the stretch between Perm and Yekaterinburg, and all trains put on detour, local police officials said.
...tried to land along the railway track??? :ooh: - hard to imagine indeed.

xolodenko
14th Sep 2008, 07:40
http://i38.tinypic.com/zjcyh1.jpg

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 07:48
Aeroflot-Nord VP-BKO (Boeing 737) (Ex B-2591 LN-BRW ) - Airfleets (http://airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b737-25792.htm)

xolodenko
14th Sep 2008, 07:55
OK Farrell, this is a not-so-fine looking picture of the airplane.
Do you have any smart jokes on that?

http://i38.tinypic.com/25am1rq.jpg

alexmcfire
14th Sep 2008, 08:20
88 onboard that lost their lives, 9 Azerbadjizani, 1 French, 1 German, 1 Italian,
1 Latvian, 67 Russian, 1 Swiss, 1 Turkish, 5 Ukrainan and 1 US.
According to Swedish media.

mary_hinge
14th Sep 2008, 08:41
More of a Tax, Over Sight and Lease issue than anything else. Also a lot of EI Registrations in the region for the same reason.

Alexei Gusan
14th Sep 2008, 09:07
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3369/dpp0056im1.jpg

Nemrytter
14th Sep 2008, 09:25
Bunch of pictures of the accident site here:
-737. 88 : (http://life.ru/video/5975)

Looks like a heck of a mess :(

WHBM
14th Sep 2008, 09:37
Aeroflot Nord is not a "Directorate" of Aeroflot, that was an old Soviet era concept. It was an independent carrier Archangel Airlines based in the far north of Arctic Russia. Aeroflot bought a majority (but not total) number of the shares 4 years ago, and they started to re-equip from Soviet era Tupolevs to secondhand western types like the 737 in question. As I understand it they operate on a separate AOC to Aeroflot.

Moscow to Perm is not on the Aeroflot Nord network, but is a mainstream Aeroflot route, so the operation is an effective wet-lease, or similar to a US commuter carrier operation. Aeroflot Nord flights are numbered 5N whereas mainstream Aeroflot flights are SU. There are a number of such flights for mainline Aeroflot out of Moscow (their only operational base nowadays) to various Russian cities. The aircraft rotate in/out of the Archangel base.

Russian aircraft imported from the "west" are almost entirely registered in the west (Bermuda is a favourite but there are others) due to a very substantial import tax in Russia on aircraft.

snowfalcon2
14th Sep 2008, 09:38
Weather at Perm / Bolshoye Savino:

USPP 132200Z 06005MPS 7000 -RA OVC007 06/06 Q1012NOSIG RMK QFE748/0998 FBL ICE INC SC050=
USPP 132300Z 06005MPS 9999 -RA OVC008 07/06 Q1012NOSIG RMK QFE748/0997 SC050=
USPP 140000Z 06005MPS 7000 -RA OVC009 07/06 Q1011NOSIG RMK QFE748/0997 SC050=
USPP 140100Z 07006MPS 3900 R21/P4300D -RA OVC007 07/06Q1011 NOSIG RMK QFE748/0997 SC050=

Earlier, until 1700Z, there was a remark about severe icing in clouds "SEV ICE INC 3000-9000 SC050="

AlexGG
14th Sep 2008, 09:41
Nothing really factual is available so far.

1. 87 fatalities, no survivors,
2. aircraft damaged the rail line (about 50 meters of rail, railroad section closed for repairs)
3. Aircraft type reported 737-500
4. News reports aircraft was in for emergency landing when it crashed. The report states it like an emergency has already been declared, but I do not see any sort of confirmation for this.
5,. Probably based on eyewitness accounts, reports are that aircraft was on fire and broke-up in mid air.
6. Raido contact lost at 03:10 MSK at altitude of 1800 meters.
7. Black box (at least one) is reported found.

In case someone would need this, hotline phone +7 342 2949848 (in Russian probably)

For images check here NEWSru.com :: :: Boeing-737-500 (http://newsru.com/pict/big/1097928.html), in the top line green arrows are clickable (for those who do not read Russian)

AlexGG
14th Sep 2008, 09:46
Most recent update (source being local TV) is that there was an engine failure and/or fire of some sort, and it did a go around on a first landing attempt. Although there is no information about engine problem developing before or after go around.

5 APUs captain
14th Sep 2008, 10:12
1. The airplane crased after Go-around from about 1800 m (about 6000 ft).
2. The eyewitnesses say it already was in fire before ground contact and descended on a path about 40 degrees angle.
3. According the TechLog it had some problems with Autothrottle.

ACARS
14th Sep 2008, 10:12
There is a video on you tube showing the crash seen shortly after the crash. TV station were allowed in to view.

I am not posting the link. People know how to search.

Evening Star
14th Sep 2008, 12:12
Russian media are talking about an engine failure on flight SU281 and that the rescuers have recovered the FDR and CVR. Crash site on the Trans-Siberia railway (extensively damaged) missed surrounding apartment blocks, so there are no reported injuries or fatalities on the ground.

Flight crew are named as commander Rodion Mikhaylovich Medvedev and copilot Rustam Rafailovich Allaberdin, stewards, Shirokov A.D., Noritsina T.V., Yakovlev A.Y. and Kuchma O.V., and the passenger list names 82 passengers including 6 children. RIP.

Apparently a family of 5, including 2 children, missed the flight at SVO.

sussex2
14th Sep 2008, 12:34
When I hear the word 'expert' I shake and judder and various warning lights come on; lights that do not extinguish until I am safely out of the 'experts' area!

liider
14th Sep 2008, 12:57
Aeroflot decides to cut cooperation with Aeroflot Nord since tomorrow, - the head of Aeroflot Valery Okulov said!

pee
14th Sep 2008, 13:02
@Simonpro. Thank you for the link, but... I wish I wasn't able to understand some parts of the text...
Очевидцы трагедии в Перми рассказали шокирующие подробности происходившего в первые минуты после падения самолета Боинг-737.

По их словам, оказавшиеся первыми на месте ЧП люди... начали мародерничать.

- Они с трупов одежду снимали, сволочи..., - всхлипывая, рассказывала одна из очевидиц катастрофы.

Добычей мародеров стали паспорта, драгоценности. Там много чего, - заметил один из
местных жителей. Пятеро мародеров были пойманы на месте преступления.
An amateur translation of mine, sorry if not accurate...

Eyewitnesses described some the shocking details of the Perm's tragedy during the first minutes after the accident of Boeing-737.

According to them, the first on-site were... the local looters.

- They hastily weared-off clothes from the dead bodies, "Svolochi" ... - told an eyewitnes.

They were searching for passports, jewelry. There were a lot of things, - noticed one of the local residents. Five looters were caught and are being held now.

People hyenas, my God! :yuk:

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 13:34
@pee LIFE.ru is a kind of Sun or other yellow press :(

SU-GCM
14th Sep 2008, 13:41
First of All I am not an aviation Expert/pilot/ or ATC I am just an enthusiast who likes aviation with some small knowledge compared to others here in the forum. so don't falme on me ...................

I have noticed on the link of the russian newspaper -737. 88 : (http://life.ru/video/5975) that they attached a chart for the Runway 21 Approach
http://life.ru/media/content/0908/f1e43f086f994908a21d255e10ce5c4a.jpg

I don't know if this chart is from the crash incident or they just put any chart

the Chart is russian so I am not able to understand weather that's a ILS/VOR/NDB APP
But checking the Latest Jeppesen Charts for the Airport I see 2 APP Charts for the Runway
1 - ILS OR LOC RWY 21 = Effective : 1 Feb 08
2- 2 NDB OR NDB RWY 21 = Effective : 14 Feb 08

refering back to the russian Chart on the newspaper's website we can see at the first part that it read (26 anp 00)

which means that it's outdated remember the Crash of the 737 US Airforce in 1996 in Croatia

Again DON'T FLAME ON ME it's just my opinion and I am declearing it
the investigation at the end will say the truth (let's hope)

finally RIP all involved

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 13:51
Picture is just some "example of landing routine at PERM a/p".

Just coincedence:
There was General Gennady Troshev (former Commander-in-Chief of North Caucasian Military Command) on board.
Today is D.Medvedev birthday

Ultralights
14th Sep 2008, 13:57
Dont worry everyone, i know the cause!!!

its right here in this news story news story link here (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24344065-5001021,00.html)

As the plane was coming in for landing, it lost communication at the height of 1,100 metres and air controllers lost its blip.

thats the problem folks! missing blip.

threemiles
14th Sep 2008, 14:05
The Russian investigation office is very speedy (compared to some others). The accident has shown up on their website and a two initial statements are out

The technical commission of intergovermental aviation committee continues its work on the spot of the crash of aircraft the Boeing-500 of airline Aeroflot- north. Onboard chart recorders of aircraft (so-called black boxes) are discovered and they will be delivered into the intergovermental aviation committee by the nearest voyage.

(http://www.mak.ru/russian/russian.html)
Boeing-737 (http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2008/boeing-737-500.html)

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 14:20
METAR - USPP 132300Z 06005MPS 9999 -RA OVC008 07/06 Q1012 NOSIG RMK QFE748/0997 SC050

Confirmed that that was second attempt of landing.

http://smages.com/i/da/3a/da3aed97b55c1f2d850a27873ac0b061.jpg

Crash site: N57.971476, E56.211634
OR N5758'18,00" E5612'42,00"

http://www.ura.ru/images/news/043/908/043908/Boing5.jpg

ExByMan
14th Sep 2008, 15:10
There is an agreement between the Russian and Bermuda governments under ICAO Article 83bis, whereby regulation and oversight of Annex 1 (Licencing) and Annex 6 (Operations) are transferred to the Russian Authorities. Responsibilities and oversight under Annex 8 (Airworthiness) are retained by Bermuda, who have Inspectors based in Moscow.

I suggest that readers look up what all that means before jumping to conclusions.

Ethics Gradient
14th Sep 2008, 15:43
whereby regulation and oversight of Annex 1 (Licencing) and Annex 6 (Operations) are transferred to the Russian Authorities. Responsibilities and oversight under Annex 8 (Airworthiness) are retained by Bermuda,

Who has Annex 13 (Accident Investigation)?

AlexGG
14th Sep 2008, 15:50
Looks like something unusual surfaced (as on TV),

Air traffic controller who was in charge of the approach/landing says

QUOTE:

I told him "I see you climbing, confirm you are at 900 meters", he replied "Affirm, but we are descending", and continued to climb to 1200 meters. He was too high to make an approach from that position (given 1200 altitude), I gave him vectors (to something) and he accepted the command but did not follow it. I told him to turn right, but he actually turned left. I asked "is it all right with you" and he replied OK. I then handed him over to another controller, but he did not contact (that other controller), and started descending rapidly. At approx 600 meters there was a scream on a radio, and I told him to maintain 600. He did not reply, there was a flash and I declared crash alert. ... he did not report any problem, but was behaving inadequately, did not follow instructions (ATC commands)Source . (http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/127979) in Russian

British Grenadier
14th Sep 2008, 16:40
Found this on liveleak

LiveLeak.com - Raw : Russian Investigators On Scene Of Crash. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7a_1221392844)

xolodenko
14th Sep 2008, 16:45
Captain Rodion Medvedev and FA Olga Kuchma

http://i33.tinypic.com/9s87sj.jpg

ExByMan
14th Sep 2008, 16:56
That resides primarily within the Contracting State of where the accident happened. There are provisions for representation by the State of the Operator and State of Registration. Representations are also accepted from Manufacturers( eg Boeing and engine makers).

All Annexes can be accessed through ICAO on line. Look them up for clarification.

xolodenko
14th Sep 2008, 17:04
Maintenance engineer of AFL-Nord is quoted as saying that the plane had two defects reported by the previous crew:
- autothrottle not working properly (sometimes it responds, sometimes not)
- TCAS inop

maddes
14th Sep 2008, 17:07
General Gennady Troshev was also listed as a passenger, a former Presidential advisor on Cossack affairs and fired by Putin in 2002.
He was also infamous during the Chechen conflict and was supposedly listed as a target by Chechen extremists.
Troshev had bluntly refusel to accept a transfer from the high-profile North Caucasus Military District to a far-flung command in Siberia in 2002. Putin signed a decree removing Troshev from his post after the colonel general was shown on national television defying Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov's "offer" to accept command of the Siberian Military District.
Neither the Chechens nor Putin have claimed responsibility. My thoughts with the family of the pax and crew.

lomapaseo
14th Sep 2008, 17:19
AlexGG

Many thanks for your updates and picture links.

I think that I noticed in the pictures that the rail line just starts to make a curve at the point of the crash. It also appears that the wreckage is quite well in line with the straight part of the tracks and with the gear down and at least one engine at high power.


I hope that somebody can post a google image of the tracks vs the airport runway headings.

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 17:23
N57.971476, E56.211634 - Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=EN&geocode=&q=N57.971476,+E56.211634&ie=UTF8&ll=57.946383,56.122284&spn=0.067325,0.2211&t=h&z=13)

Airport is in the bottom left corner

snowfalcon2
14th Sep 2008, 18:05
The yellow line in the picture connects the crash site (approx) and the Perm airport. The distance is 7.2 NM.

http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo204/snowfalcon3/Aeroflot-Perm.jpg

Wind was from north-east which, lacking other data, suggests the a/c may have been climbing out from the go-around.

WHBM
14th Sep 2008, 19:46
Responsibilities and oversight under Annex 8 (Airworthiness) are retained by Bermuda, who have Inspectors based in Moscow.
Are these really Bermudan CAA inspection staff deployed in Moscow, or just a subcontracted organisation who can do an hour or so of chargeable paperwork as required ?

PJ2
14th Sep 2008, 19:51
Я выражаю мои соболезнования к семье и друзьям
с моей искренностью,
Pj2

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 20:41
Crash site video Boeing-737 (http://www.kommersant.ru/media/00001612.html)

No burns on site (green aren't black)
No damage for RR tracks
No broken poles, just wires.

Kulverstukas
14th Sep 2008, 21:12
Eng 1
http://img147.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-31093/loc897/21143_2_122_897lo.jpg

Eng 2
http://img239.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-12400/loc50/21252_1_122_50lo.jpg

Damaged RR track
http://img206.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-4271/loc152/21315_3_122_152lo.jpg

http://img179.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-28026/loc78/21317_4_122_78lo.jpg

http://img22.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-30379/loc1005/21319_5_122_1005lo.jpg

armchairpilot94116
14th Sep 2008, 21:15
Engine failure cited in deadly Russian jet crash - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080914/ap_on_re_eu/russia_plane_crash)

Dan D'air
14th Sep 2008, 21:16
Emergency services say the plane was approaching its destination at an altitude of 1,800 meters when communication was lost.

The aircraft fell in wasteland and caught fire.

Yes, OK then. Ochen Spacieba.................

RoyHudd
14th Sep 2008, 21:19
Usual c**p from the BBC TV 24 News this afternoon, reporting authoritatively that "the aircraft exploded in mid-air"...not even "reported as having exploded". They are such a low grade news channel, no better than Fox, thank the lord for their superior competition.

As for the accident, many unanswered questions as with the Madrid accident...conjecture is a waste of time.

I wonder whether Rumours and News is a useful contribution any more. Probably yes, but a pity there is so much incorrect material posted by those not in the know.

lomapaseo
14th Sep 2008, 21:50
It's amazing how every witnessed aircraft crash starts with engine failure and yet it almost never turns out to be the case.

The unreliable and traumatized witnesses can't help themselves after seeing flaming debris catapulted into the air along the flightpath. But the political representatives of the country typically give credence to reports of engine failure by their press releases.

This again is picked up by the news hungry press anxious to be the first to satisfy the publics hunger for blame. Yet within these first reports there is no learning or signs of "we got it wrong". Instead the same cycle of ignorance is repeated for the next accident as well.

At least on PPRune ignorance has a way of being corrected:\

stadedelafougere
14th Sep 2008, 21:59
Does any one know at which point the supposed first attempt to land was aborted and the aircraft sent to an (supposed) go-around?
I think that in the afternoon, the BBC reported (no source mentioned) debris over 4 km. Any confirmation?

AlexGG
14th Sep 2008, 22:56
Preliminary information points to technical problems and right engine fire, according to the chairman of investigating committee Alexander Bastrykin.
source http://news.mail.ru/incident/2017648 (in Russian)

although I'm not quite sure I got official "rank" exactly correct, that is a senior official.

pattern_is_full
15th Sep 2008, 05:40
My one observation right now is that in the still photos:

The wreckage came down right on a rail line with no visible shifting or damage to the rails (yes, I know, iron is more massive that aluminum...)

Similarly it surrounds several poles (power/telephone?) none of which appear scathed, toppled, bent. Pole spacing seems to be <100 m.

Similarly it lies underneath the wires on those poles, many of which wires are also still intact.

Grass mostly still green, as already mentioned, although I see some flash burning in a few spots.

Seems to imply relatively low-energy impact with the ground, while the shredding/destruction of the aircraft/loss of life seems to imply a high-energy event. Supports in-air breakup reports?
---------------------------------------------
Looking for definitive info on the aircraft heading at time:

Inbound to RWY21, or outbound on a Missed Approach from RWY 3? Controller's report of "turned left" from RWY centerline supports first, WX supports 2nd. neither very clear or certain.

xolodenko
15th Sep 2008, 06:49
Well, if you call that "RR tracks not damaged"....

http://i38.tinypic.com/10glp1w.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/20py59i.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/1pgsr4.jpg

xolodenko
15th Sep 2008, 06:54
Video of this plane landing taken three months before...

Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO, - / / - Avsim.su - Microsoft Flight Simulator, X-Plane, , , , , , (http://www.avsim.su/files.phtml?action=viewonline&id=15647)

AlexGG
15th Sep 2008, 08:05
Given this image,
http://i38.tinypic.com/10glp1w.jpg

I'd say he came in from "far" side of the image (upper right) towards the camera (camera is bottom left), cutting trees. But the rail line goes in a trench here (significantly lower than surrounding terrain), so he skipped first (upper in the image) line of rail, hit the second (lower in the image) line, and impacted the upslope (the side of trench on which the camera is). He was at angle to the track (I'd say close to 45 degrees) and the track is somewhat protected by the edges of the "trench". Hence the limited damage to the rail itself.

xolodenko
15th Sep 2008, 09:07
Translation of bits of posts from the accident thread on a Russian pilots forum that seem to make sense:

Regarding GA:
FMS on a 735 is designed to hook on to VOR/DME beacons, which are very few in Russia. In Perm, there is actually none. As a result, by the time they approached Perm from Moscow, significant error in location identification has built up. Even if there was GPS onboard, it is known for grossly erroneous readings over Russian territory. GLONASS, Russian analogue of GPS, has not yet been deployed.

There is no ILS with heading 32 in Perm, only ILS 212.

So, of all the miracles of navigation, only ADF, a technology from the 1930s, might have remained of use onboard that plane. In a 2-man crew, without the navigator, it might be a hell of a job to do an IMC approach at night using only one set of ADF.

Captains request for the 212 approach heading is an indication of attempted ILS landing.

Regarding sudden climbing turn to the left:
There are hills to the east of Perm. When shooting a 32 ILS, they are seen forward right. So if GPS was mispositioned it could send a warning of close terrain and prompt the captain to turn left.

Regarding captains behaviour:
1)He requested heading 212 because this was the easiest mode of approach for him and he felt unconfident about other headings.
2)He botched up reporting his position to the ATC controller at some point during the approach and did not want to admit to the controller that he lost his orientation.
3)Because of loss of situational awareness he misinterpreted instructions of the controller as he could no longer figure out where was right and left.
4)His control inputs (nose up instead of nose down) is indication of his struggle with the loss of speed and look more like hectic actions then indented maneuver.
5)Captains actions are indicative of his desire to conceal the mistakes characteristic for a trainee.
6) Captain was in the home-itus state, which urged him to get on the ground as soon as possible instead of making a standard GA, which he was afraid of doing (because of night, rain, dark, no lights on the ground, loss of SA)

His dudeness
15th Sep 2008, 12:17
Regarding captains behaviour:
1)He requested heading 212 because this was the easiest mode of approach for him and he felt unconfident about other headings.
2)He botched up reporting his position to the ATC controller at some point during the approach and did not want to admit to the controller that he lost his orientation.
3)Because of loss of situational awareness he misinterpreted instructions of the controller as he could no longer figure out where was right and left.
4)His control inputs (nose up instead of nose down) is indication of his struggle with the loss of speed and look more like hectic actions then indented maneuver.
5)Captains actions are indicative of his desire to conceal the mistakes characteristic for a trainee.
6) Captain was in the home-itus state, which urged him to get on the ground as soon as possible instead of making a standard GA, which he was afraid of doing (because of night, rain, dark, no lights on the ground, loss of SA)

XOLODENKO, me thinks you are bit fast here. Give the man a fair trial Id say. Maybe he was intoxicated by fumes or the like? Lets wait for a proper investigation to be carried out.

Kulverstukas
15th Sep 2008, 17:22
UNconfirmed:

A/c was fueled at SVO with 11,5t of fuel (twice amount for distance).

Also:

http://photofile.ru/photo/alex3saaba/115201465/121132957.jpg

http://photofile.ru/photo/alex3saaba/115201465/121132959.jpg

demid
15th Sep 2008, 17:31
Gentelmen, read this sticked post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/343213-do-you-fall-into-profile-air-accident-checklist-read-before-making-posts-here.html) by Farrel

pattern_is_full
15th Sep 2008, 23:30
I stand corrected - I had not seen those track shots before.

Do I have the rest of the picture right?

Attempting ILS for RWY 21

wind 060 at about 10 mph (5mps) - favors NDB RWY 3 approach but negligible for 737 so the ILS is preferred.

Controller says he was too high and climbing, then a left turn off the localizer/centerline heading of 212 degrees, rapid descent and crash?

Crashed short of the airport while still inbound - no go-around at the marker or airport?

Mark in CA
16th Sep 2008, 06:37
Translation of bits of posts from the accident thread on a Russian pilots forum that seem to make sense:

Regarding GA:
...Even if there was GPS onboard, it is known for grossly erroneous readings over Russian territory. GLONASS, Russian analogue of GPS, has not yet been deployed.
I'm not a professional pilot, but if this is what Russian pilots think, then it's no wonder there are so many accidents there. This statement is definitely untrue. I confirmed this with GPS experts (major maker of GPS receivers).

There are currently 31 active GPS satellites, enough to ensure constant coverage everywhere. In fact, the chief of the Russian Space Agency (Roscosmos), Anatoly Perminov, was recently quoted (http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1545502/glonass_will_be_near_gps_accuracy_after_2010__roskosmos/) as saying that in 2010, "...the GLONASS accuracy parameters will approach the accuracy of the GPS system." Apparently, achieving current GPS accuracy (over Russia, I assume) is a future goal of the GLONASS project.

Think about it. GPS was originally developed and deployed by the U.S. military. Does anyone really think there would be problems with accuracy over Russia, of all places?

peter we
16th Sep 2008, 10:36
Boeing Blew Out as Balloon - Kommersant Moscow (http://www.kommersant.com/p1026606/Boeing_737_jet_crash/)

The doubts about the beginning of fire root in the evidences of witnesses insisting that the jet inflamed in the air and looked like a comet. Besides, unlike the left engine, the right one, No. 856332, that was made August 9, 1992 and operated for 41,965 hours (the jet was registered in the Bermuda Islands and operated 44,521 hours) is very much deformed and completely burned. The trend is that some 90 percent of the people that saw an air crash speak about the fire and air explosion, and this information is usually wrong.

The fire in the engine didnt cause the crash, one of the investigators said on condition of anonymity. Boeing 737 was solid till it hit the ground at a 30-degree angle. The plane broke to small pieces after the collision and the immediate fire of fuel that splashed out the fuel tanks (over 5 tons of aviation kerosene). If the jet had broken in the air, it would have broken into big fragments, the investigator explained.

captplaystation
16th Sep 2008, 12:23
So, it seems that the engine exploded ,the pressurisation failed ,the crew were situationally unaware ,there was a train in the way as they landed , the aircraft was registered in Bermuda, there were some dodgy guys aboard that other dodgy guys might have wanted dead. . . . . no wonder it crashed then. Might as well cancel the investigation and save the money to buy another football player.

threemiles
16th Sep 2008, 20:35
Intergovermental aviation committee informs about the fact that the technical commission POPPY on the investigation of the crash of aircraft the Boeing-500 of airline Aeroflot- north is formed in complete agreement with the rules of the investigation of aviation incidents and incidents in the Russian Federation.

In the composition of commission participate the representatives Of [rosaviatsii], [Rosaeronavigatsii] and other specialists of civil aviation. In accordance with the Convention on International Civil Aviation (appendix 13 the investigation of aviation incidents and incidents), will take part the representatives of the USA as developer and producer of aircraft, France as the developer of engine, and also Great Britain as the representative of [lizingodatelya] and state of registration.

Official information about the work of technical commission and corresponding results will be placed on the site of intergovermental aviation committee.

Technical commission POPPY continues the necessary volume of the works of the stage of the field investigation on the spot of incident. Entire flying and technical documentation of aircraft is studied by commission, is analyzed the information of the means of the ground-based of the inspection, including of radar piloting of air vessel.

With inspection and opening of onboard registrars in the technical center POPPY was discovered serious damage of both the tape-drive mechanisms of both the vocal and the parametric of chart recorders. For the interpretation of records taking into account their poor state additional works with the use of special equipment are required. The being appeared in media outlets information about the technical state of air vessel, connected with its operation in China proceeds neither from the committee nor from the specialists of technical commission POPPY.

From MAK website

lomapaseo
16th Sep 2008, 20:57
With inspection and opening of onboard registrars in the technical center POPPY was discovered serious damage of both the tape-drive mechanisms of both the vocal and the parametric of chart recorders. For the interpretation of records taking into account their poor state additional works with the use of special equipment are required. The being appeared in media outlets information about the technical state of air vessel, connected with its operation in China proceeds neither from the committee nor from the specialists of technical commission POPPY.

So the information about a left engine failure being bandied about in all the news is just poppy-cock?

Thunderbug
16th Sep 2008, 21:39
AAIB Press Release (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/AAIB%20Press%20Release%20VP-BKO%20160908.pdf)


AAIB Press Release - 16 September 2008
AAIB PARTICIPATE IN RUSSIAN AVIATION ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The Air Accident Investigation Commission of Russia's Interstate Aviation committee (MAK) is leading the investigation into the accident to a Boeing 737-500 that crashed near Perm, Russia, on 14 September 2008. The aircraft (VP-BKO), operated by Aeroflot-Nord but registered in Bermuda, was on a scheduled flight from Moscow to Perm with 6 crew and 82 passengers on board all of whom are reported to have received fatal injuries.
The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), assisting the Governor of Bermuda (a British Overseas Territory) under the terms of a Memorandum of Agreement, has dispatched two Senior Inspectors of Air Accidents to participate in the investigation. Representatives from Bermuda's Department of Civil Aviation are acting as advisors to the AAIB team.

johnmhunt
16th Sep 2008, 22:39
Unless said GPS innacuracy over Russia is the result of jamming or spoofing, it is nor readily apparent why GPS accuracy over Russia (or ANY specific area on the earth)is any different from one place to another.

AlexGG
17th Sep 2008, 08:23
This one is official (like directive), italics mine

....
Flight was with no anomaly until completing 4th turn (I reckon to final?) with no anomalies reported (neither pilots nor ATC).
After competing 4th turn (to final), distance 13 km (from runway) at altitude 600 meters aircraft begun intensive climb, at distance 8km and 1100 meters
ATC commanded to go around (or do you call it "missed approach"?) because aircraft went outside the designated approach profile.
Crew did not acknowledge. Aircraft started to descend rapidly while turning left (although approach schema requires right turn).
... found fully destroyed ...
... skipped weather data ...
... skipped aircraft make and certification ...


Two deferred items as per MEL,
1. TCAS inop
2. 12 sep 2008 auto thrust disconnected (disabled) ....

All flights with A/T inop are suspended until further notice.
source local but reasonably reliable

demid
17th Sep 2008, 11:03
I wouldn't trust eyewitness` reports about engine fire. Sometimes they report about UFO... :ugh:
It could be pumpage caused by high AOA during stall.

A message of the russian aviation authorities has been published today. It describes all technical and weather detailes but the most interesting and important is the fact that autothrust had been disabled on this plane on Sept 12th, one day before it crashed.
This failure is described in MEL and it's allowed to fly without AT but the authorities prohibited it until further instructions.

Don't want to make any conclusions but it gives some information to think about...

HotDog
17th Sep 2008, 11:28
I wonder how we ever managed to fly without auto thrust on the classics?:rolleyes:

demid
17th Sep 2008, 12:18
I wonder how we ever managed to fly without auto thrust on the classics?

Keep in mind number of crew members on the classics :=

Anyway let's wait for the offical investigtion report. Then let's forget it and wait for the information leak. Unfortunatelly quality of air-crash investigations has fallen dramatically during last 10-15 years in Russia. Too much money are involved and it's so hard for investigators to stay independent...:*
BUT all secrets reveal soon or later

lomapaseo
17th Sep 2008, 13:22
Unfortunatelly quality of air-crash investigations has fallen dramatically during last 10-15 years in Russia.

I doubt that this applies to Annex 13 investigations as this accident comes under.

Christodoulidesd
17th Sep 2008, 20:24
I am sorry if this was reposted, but i can't find it. If it is, then please feel free to delete. Liveleak posted a video which has the following tag:

CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion.



"More CCTV images are being found of the Russian Airline disaster,if you watch the top middle of the screen,you can see the planes landing lights just before impact and then the huge explosion.

The plane crash which claimed 82 passenger lives and 6 crew members came down in Perm in the Ural Mountains."

Here's the link for the video
LiveLeak.com - CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4eb_1221587891)

Plus more, from different perspectives:
?????????? ??????: ????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????? | ????? | ????? ???????? "??? ???????" (http://www.rian.ru/video/20080917/151340122.html)

Christodoulidesd
17th Sep 2008, 20:30
Sorry if this a re-post, but i couldn't find it. If it is, feel free to delete it.

CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion

Video description: "More CCTV images are being found of the Russian Airline disaster,if you watch the top middle of the screen,you can see the planes landing lights just before impact and then the huge explosion.

The plane crash which claimed 82 passenger lives and 6 crew members came down in Perm in the Ural Mountains."

VIDEO LINK:
LiveLeak.com - CCTV Captures Russian Plane Accident Explosion. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4eb_1221587891)

threemiles
17th Sep 2008, 21:10
The chairman of technical commission POPPY [A]. Morozov informs, that, in spite of the serious damages of the tape-drive mechanisms of onboard chart recorders (vocal and parametric), is produced the readout of their records. The records of the emergency flight of the aircraft B -737-500 of № VP-BKO of airline Aeroflot- north are located on both chart recorders. In the technical center POPPY the specialists take up the interpretation.

Unfortunatelly quality of air-crash investigations has fallen dramatically during last 10-15 years in Russia.

Which other investigation agency can claim for their daily updates on their websites?

AlexGG
18th Sep 2008, 19:31
official from investigation authority

1. recorders are found and read, despite severe damage
2. Based on evaluation of engines (remains thereof), and recorder data, engines were found operating normally till impact.
3. Determined no in-flight breakup.


source http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2008/boeing-737-500.html

lomapaseo
18th Sep 2008, 20:43
2. Based on evaluation of engines (remains thereof), and recorder data, engines were found operating normally till impact.


Yet another one making the pundits and news look like idiots who never learn. Fortunately the web has more advanced learning that you can't trust early witness reports.

Don't get me wrong, the witness reports are better than nothing but they don't belong as Headlines

demid
19th Sep 2008, 04:23
The next order from the russian aviation authoriries concerning the perm crash has been issued. Particulary it contains (in my free-style translation:O):

1) Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies
2) Prohibit transition of captains from 3 and more crew member planes to 2 crew member planes without flying experience as a FO on 2 crew member planes
3) Design and apply measures to increase professional pilots training quality and avoid formal approach to evaluation of their skills

I feel deep sorry and respect to the crew and I'm sure they did everything they could to avoid the crash, but such message gives something to think about. :(

Asdrius
19th Sep 2008, 07:25
I found this CCTV video of impact:
.Ru: , (http://www.vesti.ru/videos?cid=&vid=150924)

The quality is not good, but two landing lights can be seen before impact. No signs of airplane on fire in the air. Probably witnesses identified landing lights as a sign of fire.

His dudeness
20th Sep 2008, 11:26
The next order from the russian aviation authoriries concerning the perm crash has been issued. Particulary it contains (in my free-style translation):

1) Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies
2) Prohibit transition of captains from 3 and more crew member planes to 2 crew member planes without flying experience as a FO on 2 crew member planes
3) Design and apply measures to increase professional pilots training quality and avoid formal approach to evaluation of their skills

I feel deep sorry and respect to the crew and I'm sure they did everything they could to avoid the crash, but such message gives something to think about.

Yes I would think that they either knew before that accident that russian 3 crew pilots could not handle 2 crew airplanes (which I doubt) or it is a soviet style actionism. "Do something quick to calm the public"

I think it would better to wait for at least a profound analasys of the crash with FDR/CVR data before issuing somthing like that...

Ensure captain training curriculums correspond to state standards in all aircompanies

I would have thought that this is the responsibility of the overseeing authority...

Kulverstukas
20th Sep 2008, 14:43
it is a soviet style actionism

Exactly. Same as previous ban on MEL for auto throttle. But it's not "soviet", it's international bureaucratic :uhoh:

Kulverstukas
23rd Sep 2008, 13:09
There is a leak with CVR from some source. Its autotran version and link (http://hectop.livejournal.com/677467.html) to russian text (may be someone can translate better).

- AEROFLOT 821 DISTANCE 13 APPROACH.
- 821
6 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 YOU APPROACH THE COURSE
- 821
20 SEC
- 821 ACCORDING TO MY DATA YOU CLIMBING, YOUR HEIGHT 900, CONFIRM
- AEROFLOT 821 (PAUSE) I CONFIRM CLIMBING, WE ARE DESCENDING
- AEROFLOT 821 CARRY OUT RIGHT TURN TO COURSE 360, DESCENDING TO 600
- AEROFLOT WE CARRY OUT TURN BY 600, 821
- 821 CALCULATE REPEATED APPROACH, [VEKTOR] TO THE FOURTH TURN
- AEROFLOT 821, IF YOU DO NOT OBJECT (PAUSE) LET US CONTINUE THE APPROACH
- AEROFLOT 821 COURSE 360, DESCEND 600, CALCULATE THE REPEATED APPROACH
- REPEATED APPROACH DESCENDING 600 AEROFLOT 821
- 821 IS EVERYTHING NORMAL IN THE CREW?
- 821 CONFIRM
- 821 UNDERSTOOD, THEN STRICTLY FOLLOW MY COMMAND, CALCULATE [VEKTOR] TO THE FOURTH TURN, RIGHT-HAND TURN TO COURSE 360
- 600 TO COURSE 360 AEROFLOT 821
20 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 WORK WITH APPROACH
...... - F K!!! CRY

DeRodeKat
23rd Sep 2008, 14:51
Kulverstukas, the link does not work

flash8
23rd Sep 2008, 17:24
It needs to be changed to:

LINK HERE (http://hectop.livejournal.com/677467.html)

Kulverstukas
23rd Sep 2008, 18:44
TwoOneFour, I dunno, but it correspond to interview with FC which leaked earlier (next day after accident).

AlexGG
23rd Sep 2008, 19:16
Although not official, the person posting this is generally considered reliable/reputable. And he says "I got it from a source which is reliable enough".

Edited translation, what I changed is lower case, [my comments in square brackets].

- AEROFLOT 821 DISTANCE 13 [km] APPROACH.
- 821
6 SEC
- AEROFLOT 821 YOU APPROACH THE COURSE
- 821
20 SEC
- 821 ACCORDING TO MY DATA YOU CLIMBING, [your] altitude is now 900, CONFIRM
- AEROFLOT 821 (PAUSE) I CONFIRM CLIMBING, WE ARE DESCENDING [as in "we are proceeding to descend now"]
- AEROFLOT 821 turn right heading 360, descend to 600
- AEROFLOT [we are] turning, 600, 821
- 821 expect missed approach, and vectors to the fourth turn
- AEROFLOT 821, IF YOU DO NOT OBJECT (PAUSE) LET US CONTINUE THE APPROACH
- AEROFLOT 821 heading 360, DESCEND 600, expect missed approach
- missed approach, DESCENDING 600 AEROFLOT 821
- 821 IS EVERYTHING NORMAL IN THE CREW?
- 821 CONFIRM
- 821 UNDERSTOOD, THEN STRICTLY FOLLOW MY COMMAND, expect vectors TO THE FOURTH TURN, turn right heading 360
- 600 TO COURSE 360 AEROFLOT 821
20 SEC
- Aeroflot 821 Contact approach
...... - F K!!! [scream]


Although now posting it, I really have doubts this post is useful.

lomapaseo
23rd Sep 2008, 20:15
AlexGG

Although now posting it, I really have doubts this post is useful

I puposely didn't quote your translation in case you want to delete it later.

It certainly gives pause in thought to what was happening. However, to me there are too many questions and with such limited experience on my part I would have to defer to type rated pilots to decipher what may have been going on to match the words.

brak
23rd Sep 2008, 22:13
From the article here: - Boeing - (http://kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1030658)

I will translate only the most relevant portions:

The crew of Boeing, according to some experts, was in a critical situation, after the aircraft, which was lead by controller, after safely performing four turns in the "box" and taking a course for landing, suddenly climbed sharply. This maneuver, the cause of which has not yet been determined, apparently, was a complete surprise to the controller of Perm airport Irek Bikbov, who called these actions inadequate for the pilots themselves. What follows from decoding of talks among the pilots, they learned that the machine is going up from the radio dispatcher. The climb itself (rather than descent) was not particularly dangerous, especially since the controller suggested that Boeing pilots turn and repeat the approach. However, they were unable to comply with his instructions for yet undetermined reasons.

It is likely that the incident simply confused them and they lost spatial orientation. In any case, this is evident in their [pilots]conversation - after accepting controllers instructions for second approach, pilots began to vigorously argue about turn direction - left or right. The captain, who insisted on the left turn, won this dispute and the aircraft turned away from the landing "boxe" on the right, and towards residential areas of Perm. However, the crew was unable to complete this maneuver: the plane banked too far to the left and fell into a rapid spiral dive.


While the article does not specifically says so, it appears as though they had access to cockpit voice recording.

They go on to speculate about differences in artificial horizon output between Russian and foreign planes that may have contributed to this, as well as relative inexperience of pilots with this type of plane (captain had a few hundred hours as an FO on Boeing, prior to that FO on Tu-134, etc).

Who knows what that means, but Kommersant is generally a fairly respectable publication.

demid
24th Sep 2008, 07:49
Russian news sites claim that the crash was caused by "human factor". Investigators concluded that the plane crashed due to the crew error. Pilots lost orientation and were unable to determine climbing (they discovered climbing only after ATC had told them. how is it possible?! :confused: ).

That's what news tell. However I haven't seen any official report yet.

His dudeness
24th Sep 2008, 08:11
I would doubt it very much, that it was 'just' human error, although it is possible.
IF everything was working fine on the flightdeck, then there is little reason for disorientation and loss of situational awareness. Have they really checked and ruled out all other possibilities in such a short time? What about a failed horizon or the like?
Never flown a 37, but as there are thousands around and they dont fall out of the skies like appels in autumn, there might very well be more to it than just the easy way out, pilot error.

DeRodeKat
24th Sep 2008, 09:54
...... - F K!!! [scream]

Just a comment regarding this last exclamation from the leaked transcript. This is not just a curse and it is impossible to translate it in English (that is why it is translated as "F...K"). But this curse normally means something like a fatal end. So, eventually the crew has realized that they had lost it. Very sad:(

FlightDetent
25th Sep 2008, 13:19
That is exactly the way it is. In CIS (for local crews) the ATCO issues the orders, truly. Think what you may but don't fight it, ever. That's the procedure.

His dudeness
25th Sep 2008, 14:21
That is exactly the way it is. In CIS (for local crews) the ATCO issues the orders, truly. Think what you may but don't fight it, ever. That's the procedure.


You mean there is a different set of rules for non-locals? :ooh:

FlightDetent
25th Sep 2008, 15:33
You mean there is a different set of rules for non-locals? :ooh:
Yes, I do. The system in place requires ATC to command airborne ships, to crews ATC is their superior, military-wise. For those not registered under CIS authoritiy, ATC will provide service, just as we are used to according to ICAO regs.

captplaystation
25th Sep 2008, 17:27
Yeah, and look at the sorry mess that caused in Swiss airspace not so long ago, Great. . . just Great.

armchairpilot94116
25th Sep 2008, 17:48
Jet pilot?s 14 seconds dilemma before fatal crash - Scotsman.com News (http://news.scotsman.com/germanplanecrash/Jet-pilots-14-seconds-dilemma.2341758.jp)


This article supports what you are saying captplaystation

archae86
25th Sep 2008, 18:51
There is an Associated Press story out:

NYTimes posting of AP story (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-EU-Russia-Plane-Crash.html)

In case the link does not work, the nub is that a spokesman for the Federal Agency of Air Transport announced a suspension of flights on aircraft "similar to the one that crashed" pending additional simulator training for pilots.

G-CPTN
25th Sep 2008, 20:26
AOL version:- Russia suspends Boeing 737 flights - World - AOL News (http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/russia-suspends-boeing-737-flights/article/2008092513531826231597)

captplaystation
25th Sep 2008, 20:41
Well, that must give anyone who has been a passenger with them recently a nice warm feeling. . . . . not.

ChristiaanJ
25th Sep 2008, 21:24
So, it seems the difference between the "Western" and the "Russian" ADI presentation has finally come to roost....

Glad to see the Russian authorities have almost immediately drawn the right conclusion: more training and more information needed.

I hope to see also, that the same authorities will rapidly be able narrow down the problem to pilots having converted relatively recently from Russian-type aircraft to "Western"-type aircraft, and that would mean NOT only the 737.

CJ

FlightDetent
26th Sep 2008, 10:21
I hope to see also, that the same authorities will rapidly be able narrow down the problem to pilots having converted relatively recently from Russian-type aircraft to "Western"-type aircraft, and that would mean NOT only the 737.

Question remains if the new policy will also help prevent the re-occurence of Armavia crash eventhough the resemblance to GulfAir still scares me. Or this one: Crossair Flight 498 - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossair_Flight_498) * The commander remained unilaterally firm in perceptions which suggested a left turn direction to him.
* When interpreting the attitude display instruments under stress, the commander resorted to a reaction pattern (heuristics) which he had learned earlier.
* The commander was not systematically acquainted by Crossair with the specific features of western systems and cockpit procedures.

peterperfect
1st Oct 2008, 08:00
Does anyone know if the accident aircraft had 'analogue' (mechanical attitude instruments) or 'digital' with primary nav/AI screens ? Since 737-500s can have either.

FlightDetent
1st Oct 2008, 09:40
I always thought that there were versions of -500 with electronic or steam driven engine instrument panel; but EADI and ND were only CRT.:confused:

captplaystation
1st Oct 2008, 11:09
Think you are right. Some early 300's had old style ADI/RMI, but by the time the 500 came along the CRT was standard layout I believe.

peterperfect
1st Oct 2008, 21:08
A quick search of airliners.net photos shows both digital and mechanical layouts for -500s. I was asking in case this is why the Russian authority have a simulator training issue, as if the crash crew trained on a different config and the aircraft/pilot grounding' reported earlier implies they mean 'until pilots simulator-trained on identical cockpit config'?

flash8
2nd Oct 2008, 23:49
...... - F K!!! [scream]

Just a comment regarding this last exclamation from the leaked transcript. This is not just a curse and it is impossible to translate it in English (that is why it is translated as "F...K"). But this curse normally means something like a fatal end.

I just looked at the original Text, and I agree wholly. The Word is impossible to translate. In five years in Russian Speaking Countries I never heard this expression uttered once - although of course everybody knows it. Its certainly a lot worse than F..K in its "emotive" value believe me.

And the same expression used by the stalled TU-154 crew back in '01.

CaptainSandL
10th Feb 2009, 18:37
This from the AP:


Pilot error blamed for fatal Aeroflot crash
33 minutes ago

MOSCOW (AP) Russian officials say alcohol and pilot confusion over the instrument panel on a Boeing passenger jet were responsible for a crash last year that killed 88 people.

The Boeing 737-500, operated by an Aeroflot subsidiary, crashed Sept. 14 while preparing to land in the city of Perm about 1,200 kilometers (750 miles) east of Moscow.

Investigators also said in a final report released Tuesday that the subsidiary, Aeroflot-Nord, had given the pilots insufficient training.

Officials earlier said that the pliots misread an indicator on the instrument panel, causing the pilot to disregard instructions from air traffic controllers and lose control of the jet.

The commission said an unspecified amount of alcohol was detected in the pilot's body.



Does anybody have a link to the "final report", preferably in English?

Ex Cargo Clown
10th Feb 2009, 20:40
Russian officials say alcohol

:eek::eek::eek:


:ugh:

aerolearner
10th Feb 2009, 20:51
MAK Press Release (http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2008/boeing-737-500.html) (scroll to bottom)

Translation by systranet

The technical commission of intergovermental aviation committee, into composition of which enter the official representatives Of [rosaviatsii], [Rostransnadzora], [Rosaeronavigatsii] and Russian Federal Service on Hydrometeorology and Environmental Control, completed works on the investigation of the crash of aircraft Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO of [a]/[k] the Aeroflot- north, that occurred on September 14, 2008 in the airport zone of Perm'. Investigation was conducted in complete agreement with the rules of the investigation of aviation incidents and incidents with the civil air vessels in the Russian Federation ([PRAPI]), affirmed by the decision of the government RF of № 609 dated June 18, 1998. On the basis appendices 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation in the investigation participated the official representatives of the USA (state- developer and the producer of aircraft), France (state- developer and the producer of engines) and Great Britain, which was of interests of state- registration [VS] - .
In the process of investigation the complete complex of works on the estimation of flying and technical documentation according to the operation of aircraft and training of crew, study of all preserved elements of aircraft and engines, interpretation and data analysis of onboard and ground environment of objective control is carried out. The mathematical flight simulation of aircraft and work of engines is carried out, with the participation of test pilots and acting airplane pilots the independent flying estimation is carried out.
Final report on the results of investigation with the conclusions, the conclusion and the recommendations regarding the flight safety is signed by all members of commission without the observations and the special opinions. Conclusion about the reasons for aviation incident is coordinated in the working order with the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.
On the fact-finding of the commission:
The direct cause for aviation incident was the loss of dimensional orientation by crew, first of all BY [KVS], which accomplished active aircraft handling in the final stage of flight, which led to the revolution of the aircraft through the left wing, its introduction into an intensive decrease and collision with the earth. The loss of dimensional orientation occurred in flight at night, in the clouds, with the off by autopilot and the autothrottle. The factor, which contributed to the loss of dimensional orientation and incapacity to its restoration, was the insufficient level of the professional training of crew in the part of the technology of piloting air vessel, control of resources (CRM) and acquisition of habits according to conclusion from the complex aircraft attitudes with the straight indication of the gyrohorizons, established on the foreign and contemporary domestic air vessels. This indication differs from the indication, used on the types of the air vessels, mastered by crew members earlier (Tu-134, in terms of AN 2).
The reason indicated was determined on the basis the analysis of the records of onboard and ground environment of objective control, study of the preserved elements of aircraft and engines, results of the simulation of emergency flight, results of the independent examination, executed by pilots by the testers State of NII (Scientific Research Institute) GA, Leah [im]. M.M. Gromov and by airplane pilots, and also entire complex of works, carried out with the participation of the specialists of Russia, the USA, Great Britain, France and [Bermud] in the course of investigation.
The system reason for this aviation incident, revealed including according to the results of the checkings, carried out By [rostransnadzorom] and By [rosaviatsiey] after aviation incident, was the insufficient level of the organization of the flying and technical operation of the aircraft Of boeing 737 in the airline.
Deficiencies in the technical operation of aircraft led to the execution for a long time of flights with the presence of fork " ( 1 ) in the position RUD of more than maximum permissible by management on the technical operation of aircraft and to nonfulfillment by the operating personnel of actions on the elimination of this defect prescribed by management on the technical operation. The presence of fork in the position RUD increased working load on the crew in the process of fulfilling the landing approach.
According to the results of the forensic medical examination, executed in the office of state of special type public health Permian provincial bureau of forensic medical examination, is [b]established the fact of the presence of ethyl alcohol in the organism [KVS] before death. The regime of labor and rest [KVS] in the period, which precedes aviation incident, contributed to the accumulation in it of fatigue and did not correspond to the acting normative documents.
In accordance with the International standards final report after transfer will be directed to the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France. After obtaining and examining the commentaries from the states, which participated in the investigation, in accordance with the requirements ICAO and by Russian legislation final report will be published in the routine.
Final report is presented to government commission. All materials for adopting the necessary measures are directed to the aviation authorities of Russia.

1 ) by term fork is understood different adjustment of right and the port engines, when different thrust realizes and vice versa with the identical position of engine-control levers, with the identical thrust the position of engine-control levers is different.

BR,

aerolearner

captplaystation
10th Feb 2009, 21:41
So "ops normal" for a Russian crew then.

Ducking ever so slightly to avoid the incoming SAM :oh:

flash8
10th Feb 2009, 23:26
Before some other "Westerners" jump onto the bandwagon and assumes that all Russian pilots are vodka swilling gung-ho types - most are (almost without exception) utterly professional in all respects. Its a sad day when false stereotypes are bandied around willy-nilly.

Those that discredit our Russian colleagues have obviously never had the pleasure to operate with them. 'nuff said.

bossan
11th Feb 2009, 01:17
Some good may come out of this sad crash.

I notice that already 7 pages are filled with comments on this crash.

As a rule, I notice, that " Eastern Block " crashes receive far less attention then those occuring in " The West "

Keep it up; crashes in Russia are as important to track as those in the West as there are lessons to be learned for the whole aviation world.

Having spent half my life in hotels and meeting many Russian aircrews in the process, I take exception to any biased statments that Russian airmen are alcoholics, I found them levelheaded, pleasant and well trained/professionals.

RatherBeFlying
11th Feb 2009, 03:21
acquisition of habits according to conclusion from the complex aircraft attitudes with the straight indication of the gyrohorizons, established on the foreign and contemporary domestic air vessels. This indication differs from the indication, used on the types of the air vessels, mastered by crew members earlier (Tu-134, in terms of AN 2).When things start going wrong, people tend to revert to their earlier training -- not good when East Bloc and rest of world have opposite presentations on the AH: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/10337-artificial-horizon-russian-style.html

liider
11th Feb 2009, 08:32
link to the video reconstruction:

.Ru: : "" - (http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=252247)

lomapaseo
11th Feb 2009, 14:39
Link to the video

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

link to the video reconstruction:

.Ru: : "" -

well I don't understand the language so I'm probably missing something here.

What is the video suppose to be showing? I can't relate it to the accident.

For one thing the video appears to show a very steep pitch into the ground while my memory seems to remember that the plane was nearly flat as it went down the railroad tracks for some distance.

Is this an official video from the accident investigation commision?

Finn47
11th Feb 2009, 17:45
This is a translation from an article today at avia.ru:

IAC summarized the investigation of the crash in Perm

February 10, 2009
/ AVIA.RU /
February 10, AVIA.RU - Today, the Interstate Aviation Committee has finished its work the Commission investigate the accident aircraft Boeing 737-500 VP-BKO a / k Aeroflot-Nord, which took place September 14, 2008 in the vicinity of the airport of Perm.

Investigation of the crash was carried out in full accordance with the Rules of the investigation of aviation accidents and incidents involving civil aircraft in the Russian Federation (PRAPI), approved by RF Government Resolution № 609 of 18 June 1998. The composition of the technical committee comprising representatives Rosaviatsii, Rostransnadzora, Rosaeronavigatsia, Roshydromet. On the basis of Annex 13 to the Convention of the International Civil Aviation in the investigation attended by official representatives of the USA (state - a developer and manufacturer of aircraft), France (the state and the developer of the aircraft engines) and the UK, which represents the interests of the State Registration of the Armed Forces - Bermuda.

The Commission found that the proximate cause of the crash was the loss of spatial orientation of the crew, especially the commander of the aircraft. This led to the coup and the plane through the left wing. After this maneuver, without enough altitude to land the plane successfully became impossible. The main factor that played a role in the loss of orientation - lack of training of crew.

Of the 1200 hours in the CF, only 240 were on the Boeing-737. Others - were carried out on board Tu-134 and AN-2. These AC installed display radically different from the one that stands on the new generation aircraft and to foreign liners, the Commission noted. As a result, when the crew took to ship only on instruments, as well as piloting a ship going in the dark and in very low visibility due to cloud cover, bring the plane with a straight horizon indication commander, who at the final stage of flight actively piloting, not managed.

Not least the role played in the loss of orientation and other factors. In particular, the Commission drew attention to deficiencies in the technical operation of the aircraft. Moreover, the results of forensic examinations carried out in the public health special type Perm Regional Forensic Bureau - Medicine, established that the mode of work and rest period prior to the FAC in the accident, he has contributed to the accumulation of fatigue and was not consistent with the current normative documents. Others dealt with in the work of the commission did not find his version of the verification.

From the findings of IAC briefed journalists the technical committee chairman Alexei Morozov, who stressed that the commission does not determine the degree of responsibility of certain individuals, this right is enshrined in the prosecutor's office, which is also connected to this investigation.

Final report on the results of the investigation (by MAC) with the findings, conclusions and recommendations of the safety signed by all members of the commission without the comments and dissenting opinions. Conclusion on the causes of aviation accidents approved by the official representatives of Great Britain, USA and France.


IF the 240 hours mentioned in the article are the captains total hours on a 737, thats not very much, is it?

Dan Winterland
12th Feb 2009, 03:16
The report on the Flash Airlines 737 crash out of Sharm El Sheikh in 2004 blames crew disorientation. It mentioned the Commander's previous experience on MiG 21s and Russian style AHs may have caused him to revert to type under pressure.

ITman
12th Feb 2009, 05:55
A good video simulation provided by the Russian's on the Flight web site shows that B737 rolled over.

WHBM
12th Feb 2009, 13:47
The report on the Flash Airlines 737 crash out of Sharm El Sheikh in 2004 blames crew disorientation. It mentioned the Commander's previous experience on MiG 21s and Russian style AHs may have caused him to revert to type under pressure.
Just in passing, because it's in the news as the 50th anniversary of the death of Buddy Holly in an accident in the USA in 1959, the pilot of that aircaft, who had limited instrument flying experience, also had most prior experience on types where the Artificial Horizon worked a different way (basically in reverse) to the Beech being flown that evening. Sounds a similar issue.

punkalouver
12th Feb 2009, 14:23
Link please

Dan Winterland
13th Feb 2009, 01:33
Is that a request for the link to the Flash airlines 737 crash? If so, I can't find it now.

There were two investigations. As nearly all of the passengers were French, it was investiogated by the French BEA backed up by the NTSB, as well as the Egyptian Ministry of Civil Aviation. The two reports were published concurrently and were different. The French report concentrated on human factors, the Egyptian report concentrated on the technical aspects and was leaning towards a control malfunction.

The French/NTSB report said that it was likely that once the PF (the commander) had lost spatial orientation due to a slow scan, he then rolled the aircraft to about 150 degrees of bank and about 30 degrees nose down, the attitude in which the aircraft impacted the sea. The investigation concluded that is was probable that once disorientated, the PF reverted to type and tried to make tha AI look like what he would expect to see if he was flying level on a Russian style AI. Fatige was also mentioned as a factor. The report was also critical of Flash Airlines and the Egyptian regulation.

The Egyptian report said that the probable cause was an autopilot failure exacerbated by an aileron circuit jam and that had found evidence in the wreckage to support their view.

The two authorities disagreed heavily, and still do it appears. About three years ago, both reports were available on line to read. However, now the link to the French report doen't work and you can only now view the Egyptian factual report which concentrates on the technical aspects with no comment on probable cause, interestingly through a BEA link.

The Egyptian report can be read here www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2004/su-f040103pa/pdf/su-f040103pa.pdf It's over a thousand pages and 37mb.

The French/NTSB report could be read here www.bea-fr.org/francais/actualite/info20060325.html but it's been removed.

Interesting.

Dan Winterland
13th Feb 2009, 02:18
Quote: "Before some other "Westerners" jump onto the bandwagon and assumes that all Russian pilots are vodka swilling gung-ho types - most are (almost without exception) utterly professional in all respects. Its a sad day when false stereotypes are bandied around willy-nilly."


Maybe, but "most" isn't good enough. It needs to be "all". I think the below is your "exception". And Aeroflot's response seems to indicate the culture within Aeroflot is less than completely professional.

From the London Daily Telegraph 3rd Feb 2009. By Adrian Bloomfield, Moscow correspondant:

The extraordinary claim followed a mutiny by over 100 passengers at Moscow airport. They demanded that the flight crew of a New York-bound Boeing 767 be replaced after the pilot had appeared on the aircraft's tannoy apparently slurring and stumbling over his words.

Captain Alexander Cheplevsky, who had allegedly celebrated his birthday the previous day according to one Russian newspaper, seemed barely coherent and repeated the words "duration of the flight" three times, passengers were quoted as saying.

But when they raised their concerns with the cabin crew, they were told to "stop making trouble" or get off the aircraft, which was preparing for take off from Moscow's Sheremetevo airport on Dec 28.

As anxiety mounted and passengers refused to take their seats, Aeroflot representatives boarded the aircraft with a message of reassurance.

"It's not such a big deal if the pilot is drunk," one representative said, according to the English-language Moscow Times, which had a reporter on board.

"Really, all he has to do is press a button and the plane flies itself. The worst that could happen is he'll trip over something in the cockpit."

Thirty minutes into the impasse, Capt Cheplevsky emerged from the cockpit. Passengers alleged that he was red-faced, had bloodshot eyes and appeared unsteady on his feet.

Attempting to intercede in the dispute, he made passengers an offer, saying: "I'll sit here quietly in a corner. We have three more pilots. I won't even touch the controls, I promise."

With airline officials refusing to budge, matters were taken in hand by Ksenia Sobchak, a Russian celebrity and It-girl whose father was mentor to Vladimir Putin, the prime minister.

From her seat in first class, she telephoned Aeroflot, who appeared more amenable than they had to ordinary passengers, the Moscow Times reported.

After three hours, a new crew was brought aboard and the aircraft flew to New York.

Awl flyer
13th Feb 2009, 02:24
Just terrible,
--------
The official report shows that an alcohol was found in the muscles tissues of the body of Capt. Truth is that its impossible at this stage to determine was he drunk or no. They even cant say how mach it was. Only blood test could lead to the med experts conclusion about his condition during a performance of flight. Some of the close friends of him insisted at the day of crash that he was not dinking person at all for the years. I read it on the russian forum by myself.
sorry about all of it:(
Cheers
AF

mr gart
13th Feb 2009, 10:01
It was very annoying to read several last posts. Do you really believe, folks, to that muckraking journalism? I asked one pathoanatomist and he told me that it's impossible to determine whether there be alcoholic intoxication of that captain, and traces of alcohol which have been found could be the spirits from the front galley which is situated just behind the cockpit. Please just imagine that mess they analyzed. After about 300 knots impact and fire that followed not a lot of plane debris left, and what about human bodies?
Concerning Moscow — New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. Dear Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes.

Christodoulidesd
13th Feb 2009, 11:42
No one is into journalistic junk. But if the IAC summarized article on the investigation of the crash in Perm is accurate, that's pretty worrying.

flash8
14th Feb 2009, 18:32
It was very annoying to read several last posts. Do you really believe, folks, to that muckraking journalism? I asked one pathoanatomist and he told me that it's impossible to determine whether there be alcoholic intoxication of that captain, and traces of alcohol which have been found could be the spirits from the front galley which is situated just behind the cockpit. Please just imagine that mess they analyzed. After about 300 knots impact and fire that followed not a lot of plane debris left, and what about human bodies?
Concerning Moscow New York flight I could tell you results of official investigation. That stupid and annoying celebrity Ksenia Sobchak had economy class ticket, but she insisted that she had to seat in first class. But all first class seats were occupied or reserved for crew rest. That made her furious. She started to browl with cabin crew. At that very moment captain started to greet passengers. A few seconds later he was interrupted by the purser who reported about the browl. Dear Ksenia consider that stumble as if the captain was drunk and yelled that to all passengers. Several minutes later to eliminate scandal captain decided to leave the plane. After that he passed the blood and the urine test, no trace of alcohol was found. But those gutter journalists does not interested on that, they interested on that 'brave' Ksenia who 'saved' the big plane. What a s..t!
Best regards!
By the way, I'm captain of B757. In Russia. Sorry for some grammatical mistakes

Privet
You'll soon learn about Pprune - why let the facts get in the way of a good story. Stereotyping our Russian colleagues is de-rigeur amongst many - some who really should know far better. With greatest respect.

Flash

Asdrius
16th Feb 2009, 18:47
I found this video in youtube about throttle problems on the same aircraft 2 days before accident:
YouTube - VP-BKO cockpit 2 days before crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H0s4QnHlyM)

According to MAK press release, problems with throttle control increased crew's workload on approach.

brak
6th Mar 2009, 20:07
Communications between the tower and the Perm flight. All in russian, of course. You may get a general idea just listening to the voices, though - in particular compare beginning and the end.

?????? ??????? - ?????????? ????????? ?????? (http://hectop.livejournal.com/741343.html)

liider
6th Mar 2009, 20:36
The link of the transcript from ATC controls appeared:
-821. . (http://www.radioscanner.ru/files/aviarecords/file8034/)

For those who understand Russian everything should be clear...

Of course, some excuses like being tired or having some problems with the health can be also theoretically possible. But the truth looks much less pleasant.

The captain of the Aeroflot 821 is obviously drunk...
And it is clear to ATC, that\s why he is talking with him like with a baby...

No words :(

GBV
7th Mar 2009, 13:48
Definitely there was something wrong with the Captain. If he was drunk, wouldn't it be detected during those quick medical checks they do in Russia before every first flight? Or maybe he got drunk on board?

In the MAK release, it's said that the Captain was PF. Why the hell he would be flying the plane and doing communications as well?

Anyway, really sad...:(

Awl flyer
8th Mar 2009, 01:59
to the experts in speech recognition and who not even need to know the language of speaking:

IMHO I would say that this is much better not to make a conclusion just on the voice or manner of pronunciation solely. That always wrong. This tape well confirms that the approach was not managed properly, the PM had short time to respond to ATC probably by the reason of trying to handle with some abnormal situation and the phraseology was not standard but one used by a pilot experienced in other that the transport category flying. The PF screaming at the end is a terrible thing. That just confirms that upon recognition of aircraft attitude at the moment falling out of the clouds he was conscious and scared. Those who are experts in the human drank behaviour could confirm that drunk people cant react as to be scared by something but rather as behave brave and neglect. Im confused with this kind of situation happened over there. Sad think for every one who doing flying

ron83
8th Mar 2009, 07:51
well they don't say he was drunk,the report says that medical experts found some alcohol presence in tissues,they even can't determine quantity and if it was actually alcohol or maybe he was taking some medicals.

vovachan
8th Mar 2009, 16:17
Not only was the guy suffering from slurred speech, he was also confused and had trouble remembering his callsign. Aeroflot 821, 921, 721, 827, 991:eek: (hint- correct answer is 821!) He also couldn't tell up from down. The ATC even asked them Is everything OK with you guys?

PS the company has instituted post-flight checks

dvv
10th Mar 2009, 13:56
Awl flyer, (http://www.pprune.org/members/236821-awl-flyer) well, I do consider myself an expert on drunk behavior, and I can certainly confirm that there are stages of inebriation when you can still realize that you're in deep trouble, cannot pull it all together, and get scared shitless.

Tee Emm
10th Mar 2009, 14:15
I found this video in youtube about throttle problems on the same aircraft 2 days before accident:


In view of the apparent unusual thrust lever positions and N1 indications, makes you wonder why the pilot did not simply disconnect the autothrottle and use manual operation instead of persisting with an apparent autothrottle defect. Blind reliance on the automatics has brought many pilots to grief - especially when something out of the ordinary has occured.

liider
10th Mar 2009, 15:16
The autopilot and autothrottle WERE disconnected. That was the reason for the crash. The pilots were not able to operate the aircraft manually,simple as that....

maxho
10th Mar 2009, 17:54
> The pilots were not able to operate the aircraft manually

and autopilot is of course the reason

:ugh:

flash8
11th Mar 2009, 19:30
Nothing is ever as it seems in Russia. Never take anything at face value - and that includes this alleged "leaked" CVR audio. Always respect your colleagues especially those who are not here to defend themselves!

With respect.
Flash.

Joo Cunha
12th Mar 2009, 09:49
From that video on You Tube I can see a possible problem with EGT margin on the rigth engine, for the same N1 it has a difference of 30 C (+) compared to the other.

Maybe that is the reason for throtle back in cruise...

Best Regards,

Joo Cunha

vovachan
17th Mar 2009, 14:54
and that includes this alleged "leaked" CVR audio.
*************

This is actually radio traffic available to anyone with a scanner, afaik

Stubenfliege 2
2nd Jun 2009, 18:45
Hi ya.

Report about this accident is out and indeed, an interesting read:

In English

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/VP-BKO%20Report%2520(en).pdf

In Russian

http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2008/vp-bko_report.pdf

Regards,

Stubenfliege

flash8
2nd Jun 2009, 19:13
thanks... completely scathing.... however kudos to the Russian authorities for what seems at first reading a completely transparent report... there is hope yet.

Christodoulidesd
2nd Jun 2009, 19:46
Does anyone have a translation into English of the cvr transcript?

tango.golf.romeo
2nd Jun 2009, 20:38
it's no CVR transcript, it's a radio-intercept (ATC-planes), if you mean that link to www.radioscanner.ru (http://www.radioscanner.ru) website

there's not much to translate. first ATC to different flights conversation goes. in the end ATC-821 mostly. ATC guides them to land. they reply but with quite strange voice.

I don't know if it's fake or no fake. Just helping with translation.

tango.golf.romeo
2nd Jun 2009, 21:21
it's no CVR transcript, it's kind of radio-intercept if you mean that link to www.radioscanner.ru (http://www.radioscanner.ru)

there's not much in it, however. it's a ATC to planes conversation. first ATC talks to different fights incuding Lufthansa. then, in the end, ATC talks to 821 mostly. he guides them to land. they reply, but quite strangely.

don't mean if it's fake or no fake. just helping to translate.

Jet_A_Knight
5th Jun 2009, 15:00
Back to the top.

It must be just bad timing with the A330 loss that this accident is not being discussed.

A truly unbelievable accident.

Section 3.15 "Findings And Conclusion" Pages 132-133




The abnormal situation on board started developing when the aircraft was at base leg, with landing gears extended and flaps 30 at 600 m. The aircraft was flying with the autopilot engaged and the autothrottle disengaged.

The autothrottle was disengaged (with the relative alert activated) earlier, at establishing 2100 m by the cruise split monitor due to the significant thrust split. The crew did not attempt re-engaging the autothrottle.

The Co-pilot was the PF during most of the approach. As he did not have basic skills of flying multiengine aircraft with spaced-apart engines, he synchronically shifted the throttles for manual speed control and thus created a significant yawing moment to the left due to the thrust split. The PIC (as the PM) was engaged in the radio communication and did not monitor the engine parameters. The crew did not attempt to match the N1.

The pilots did not apply rudder to compensate the yaw moment, which led to a constant left banking. The autopilot's ability to counteract it by right wheel inputs was decreasing as the airspeed was dropping and the aerodynamic efficiency of the ailerons was decreasing.

After the autopilot was saturated followed by 30 left bank, the Co-pilot, while compensating the roll, overrode the autopilot to the CWS ROLL and CWS PITCH mode.

Then, in the CWS mode, the Co-pilot inadvertently pressed the manual stabilizer pushbutton, which disengaged the autopilot, accompanied with the relative alert. The crew switched off the alert and did not attempt to re-engage the autopilot.

As the pilot lacked steady piloting skills, he could not monitor all the flight parameters (altitude, speed, roll and pitch) when flying manually. The flight was unstabilized with significant changes of altitude, speed, pitch and roll, and fluctuations of thrust. An increase in thrust led to a significant noseup pitching moment, high pitch attitude (up to 23) and consequently to significant reduction of airspeed (three times down to 112, 110 and 113 knots).

The PIC was leading lengthy discussions with the Controller and did not monitor the flight properly, only interfering with the flight control from time to time.

The crew did not follow the Controllers instruction to terminate the approach and prepare for the second one.

At altitude about 1200 m with airspeed of 120 knots (10 knots lower than Vref) and left bank of about 30 the PIC, following the Co-pilots request, took control.

Not having proper situation awareness the PIC abruptly applied left wheel, increasing the left bank up to over 70. Despite the correct remark from the Co-pilot after which he initially used right wheel (decreasing the left bank to 30), the PIC then abruptly and disproportionately made several wheel inputs causing rapid left banking, followed by left overturn and deep descent with 65 nosedown pitch. It was impossible to recover from such upset at a low altitude.



Edited to show source

FlightDetent
5th Jun 2009, 15:37
Jet A K: Where does the quoted text come from? Not the final report I read it seems.

FD (the un-real)

Jet_A_Knight
6th Jun 2009, 00:57
FD

Section 3.15 "Findings And Conclusion" Pages 132-133 of the report.

There is alot of disturbing info in this report, however, I thought that quote was the most obvious to stimulate discussion.

Some similarity to the SF340 accident inSwitzerland a few years ago with Eastern Bloc pilots flying Western ADI's.

TripleBravo
6th Jun 2009, 01:34
The average level of ethanol in isolated fragments (1.08 ) and fragment parts (1.19 ) of the PICs body are significantly higher (by 0.46 and 0.96 respectively) than the abovementioned average values, which confirms the presence of ethyl alcohol in his body before death.This is consistent with his voice. :mad:
Via the AAIB UK the investigation team got access to a text message (SMS) sent from the aircraft by one of the passengers to her friend in UK. The message was sent before the engine startup (approx. at 20:59) and said that the sender was very scared, because when the PIC addressed the passengers his voice sounded like he is totally drunk. According to the message, the passengers were worried, but the flight attendants said everything was all right.Devastating.

flash8
6th Jun 2009, 10:20
In fact the crew did not follow any of the SOP recommended procedures.

Coupled with Alcohol, Fatigue, the old Russian ADI chestnut (known for years).. the list goes on and on (and reads depressingly like a KAL recommendation list, only worse if that is possible) - this accident was an absolute tragedy for the Victims and their families.

If the Captain was actually drunk as infered what were the ground staff doing at SVO - twiddling their thumbs? both SVO's are bad yes... but they aren't lawless.

The first port of call for the Russian authorities should be the Airlines Management. But that won't happen, or if it does, cosmetically only. Its a very sad day for Russian Aviation, but the reports transparency brings hope - that is truly encouraging.

bacem
6th Jun 2009, 11:40
Insurance companies will not pay money for the families of the crash victims if the final report indicates that the crash happened because the captain or the crew was drunk. Very important to know!!:=[/I]

Michael Birbeck
6th Jun 2009, 12:11
Would I be correct in saying that a Russian attitude indicator would depict a movable aircraft symbol as opposed to the fixed aircraft on a Western AI?

Only Russian aircraft I have flown is the Yak 18T with a Western AI (speed indications in kilometres an hour still confound me at times though). It is so easy to revert to type when tired or distracted.

Lack of type training and experience as well as an approach in IMC plus the communication overhead and it easy to comprehend why a pilot might revert to a previously learned mode of thinking.

The question of inebriation doesn't even bear countenancing. :(

VT-ASM
6th Jun 2009, 12:37
The Russian about the pilots being drunk sound a bit too far stretched to digest....
With the pilots dead, Blaming the pilots is the easiest way top put the blame out of their backyard....
If that were the case what were the preflight med doctors doing ??

3rd_ear
6th Jun 2009, 13:51
Disclaimer: I am a simple passer-by.

The AAIB report makes the most nightmarish reading I've had in a long time. The crew seemed to be barely in control of the aircraft from takeoff, never mind the landing. That's grim. Even setting aside the alcohol issue, the risk level was incredibly high given their inability to cope with normal operations for the type and their disengagement from SOP. I sincerely hope that those circumstances are rare in the aviation world.

flash8
6th Jun 2009, 22:59
The AAIB report....

Not an AAIB report... they just host the translation (and reported the Passengers SMS to the UK) - would like to see that exact text of the SMS though - the Russian to English might have revealed some nuances perhaps.

dicksorchard
7th Jun 2009, 00:09
For those of you who are interested in the reliability of testing for ethanol in post mortems you should read this link .You can nget the short abstract version for free but for the full paper you have to register .It has a full section devoted to air accidents .Test results can be influenced by various factors so i think in relation to this incident you guys may find it interesting .There have been a number of air accidents that have involved diabetic hypo's and if you didnt know a person was having a hypo they would appear to be drunk ?


Taken from Forensic Science international .

Interpreting results of ethanol analysis in postmortem specimens


http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(06)00289-1/abstract

villian
7th Jun 2009, 09:50
The radiointercept is 100% fake


extremely low experience on type ,N1 split, non-standard FPD (no FD),
IRS position shift (no TOGA - no threshold update )



and as a final point - state of a highest fatigue ( allmost no rest for 3 nights)
with the great violation of work and rest time, as admitted by official report



and after all just after release of official report, a week ago ( is that a conclusion?) local authorities allowed to increase annual flight hours
by 10% for cockpit crew...


Does this mean a Civil air transportation or Civil War?


P.S. My PA greetings sound completely drunk after 3 consequent nights.

X13CDX
8th Jun 2009, 01:01
alcohol content of the PIC aside.. what the hell was the first officer ever doing near that flight deck if he wasnt adequately qualified to be there in the first place??!

villian
8th Jun 2009, 11:00
what the hell was the first officer ever doing near that flight deck if he wasnt adequately qualified to be there in the first place??!



unfortunately not a rare case, it happens on regular basis.
just its fatal this time.

why spend on pilots training if they can have autopilot engaged.

its cheeper to declare them drunk or unable to read ADI.

why train new pillots - its money?
make them fly more hours.
how we do it?
lets make 5 times overpay beyond limit (with almost no pay within).
lets publish new law,costs nothing just sheet of paper.

fatigue? what is it ? never heared.

safety? it seems nobody concerned.
money? yes we like this smell.

its much cheeper to fly AF,LH or KLM,than make own industry safe.
and Im affraid its too late.

Take care.

GBV
8th Jun 2009, 16:44
Fatigue:

From the official MAK report:

Captain flew 32Hs and 40 minutes during his last month, 15Hs 35 minutes during the last 3 days (7 sectors) and could rest for 15 hours before flying in his home.

Note: most night flights, some emergencies on-board. From 11-12 of September he had significant infringements of the duty times and time off.

First Officer flew 12hs and 35 minutes during his last month, 5Hs and 20 minutes during his last 3 days (2 sectors) and could rest for 15 hours before flying at hotel "Nord"

Training:

Captain received initial B737 training at FTI, Denver, in 2006. His last sim was in 16th of June at Lufthansa Training Center. He didn't get much line training time when upgraded to captain. FTI was not approved by the Russian authorities at that time and the Captain had to fly the TU134 for 4 months after being trained for the B737.

First Officer received initial B737 training at St Peterburg GU GA, Russia, in 2008 (training didn't meet all the Russian Authorities requirements). His last sim was on the 22nd of June at Lufthansa Training Center.

Pilots didn't get English language training at proper approved Centers, no upset recovery training.

Plus the maintenance issues like a impressive throttle stagger.

I might be wrong, but i think there's a shortage of pilots in Russia. Did they ever consider hire some expats? Even from other CIS countries? Well, maybe it would be too costly...

Aunt Mabel
10th Jun 2009, 13:43
A report in Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda said: "The general impression of this report is that somebody put two drunk and sleepy tractor-drivers into the cabin of an plane and later they had to land it somehow."

The plane's black box tape recorded the chaos on the flight deck as the crew struggled to fly the plane after switching off the auto-pilot.

As the pilots prepared to land, one was trying to turn the plane left, the other right.

Investigators said they did not know how to operate the horizon indicator.

The second pilot was heard shouting: "Do it for me please, do it!" and the captain shouted back: "I can't do it either", while the co-pilot desperately asked: "What are we doing?"


Russian death crash pilot was drunk - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090603/twl-russian-death-crash-pilot-was-drunk-41f21e0.html)

tango.golf.romeo
10th Jun 2009, 15:06
Komsomolskaya Pravda is a yellow press tabloid in Russia. They are gonna do all for hot news.

I don't know if they were drunk or not, but I'd recommend not to trust this source.

punkalouver
11th Jun 2009, 03:06
Very appreciative of the AAIB translation. Why did they go to the effort of doing the translation? Because it was a VP- registration?

vonbag
11th Jun 2009, 10:02
@ Michael Birbeck -
Would I be correct in saying that a Russian attitude indicator would depict a movable aircraft symbol as opposed to the fixed aircraft on a Western AI?

Yes; Russian style attitude indicator scheme of display on the right hand side in the following page:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/fint-HORIZON-(SEND).jpg

marchino61
11th Jun 2009, 11:24
Komsomolskaya Pravda is a yellow press tabloid in Russia. They are gonna do all for hot news.

I disagree. That newspaper is one of the few independent news sources left in Russia as most of the press and TV kowtows to Putin.

xolodenko
11th Jun 2009, 14:14
punkalouver (http://www.pprune.org/members/100677-punkalouver), it was translated by MAK, not AAIB, for the NTSB and disseminated among all foreign parties to the investigation, including Boeing.

punkalouver
12th Jun 2009, 14:57
Very appreciative of MAK doing this. Hopefully they will do this with all their accident reports.

Aviaservice
31st Jan 2010, 18:44
Sorry, I've not seen previous translate.

Mr Optimistic
31st Jan 2010, 19:54
is that the same video ?

Aviaservice
31st Jan 2010, 21:10
Yes it is.

lomapaseo
31st Jan 2010, 23:54
What's the lesson learned here?

Mr Optimistic
1st Feb 2010, 12:24
I was wondering that having re-read through the thread. Was the sequence started by a faulty autothrottle causing asymetric thrust and then 'suboptimal' crew response ?

liider
1st Feb 2010, 12:53
No, the autothrottle during the whole flight was working as it should. However, the pilots did not really succeed in moving the throttles manually after disconnecting the autothrottle.

Aviaservice
1st Feb 2010, 14:14
I was shocked when I read it.

lomapaseo
1st Feb 2010, 14:44
As far as I can judge the cockpit was occupied by two idiots!

easy to say but we must understand why

vovachan
1st Feb 2010, 15:29
Was the sequence started by a faulty autothrottle causing asymetric thrust and then 'suboptimal' crew response ?

The other way around. The auto throttle was compensating for the asymmetric thrust until it could compensate no more and cut out as per design.

vovachan
1st Feb 2010, 15:40
but we must understand why

due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.

Aviaservice
1st Feb 2010, 16:00
Moreover, I've spoken with man who was re-training this crew. He said that they had a conflict situations with each other during re-training flights!

lomapaseo
1st Feb 2010, 16:13
due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.
Today 10:29


Thanks, I can better accept the video reconstruction now. It almost seemed as if the PF was unsure which way to turn the yoke.

Mr Optimistic
1st Feb 2010, 16:21
That understanding makes the video quite a horror movie

Aviaservice
1st Feb 2010, 17:31
YouTube - PERM CRASH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D1ATlmrJxM&feature=related)

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821 request right turn to final.

ATC: Aerfolot 821 did you set altimeter 997 hpa?

Copilot to ATC: Aeroflot 99..aa, sorry, Aeroflot 921, 997 set, descending 600, turning right to final.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, roger, distance 20(km), offset 10(km), turn to base when you will be ready.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, descending 600, turning base.

ATC: Roger.

Captain: F.ck! We're gonna be at the point (unknown), and we have to do "gear down" and other bullshit.

Crew: Gear down, flaps 15.

Captain: (115) checked.

Crew: (slurred speech) F.ck, speed! Speed is increasing again.

Captain to Copilot: 150, what speed did you set? 150, ok. What are you doing? Ok. Do you see? We are flying higher.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, What is your heading?

Copilot to ATC: Aeroflot 821, approaching to final turn, heading 170.

ATC: Roger, distance to final 6(km), follow to distance 10(km) with your heading.

Copilot: Aeroflot 821, roger.

Copilot: we should turn there a little.

Captain: we've turned on the left.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, Gears and flaps is down, approach will be provided.

ATC: Roger, distance 17, with Start 124.0
Copilot(simultaneosly): Flaps 30

Captain to ATC: with Start 124.0 Aeroflot 821.

Captain to Copilot: What?

Copilot: Flaps 30

Captain: Ok, 30, speed, go ahead, f.ck, set 24.0, yes, He has said!

Copilot: Yes!

Captain: just do it by yourself!
Copilot: What must I do?

Captain to ATC: Perm posadka, Aeroflot 821, good night, approaching to final turn, 600.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, Perm Start, good morning, distance 13.5, right offset 3000(meters)

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, request meteorogical condition.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, Visibility 10, cloud ceiling 240(m), rain.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, roger, tnx.

Copilot: Speed!

ATC: Aeroflot 821, distance 13, you are approaching to glideslope.

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, you are approaching to final.

Captain to ATC: 821.

Copilot: F.ck!

Captain: VOR/LOC armed, VOR/LOC

Captain to Copilot: Increase,increase (about thrust)

Captain: So, flaps 30, what speed must be set? F.ck your mother!

Copilot: 140..133.

ATC: You are climbing, you altitude 900, confirm.

Copilot: F.ck

Captain: Aeroflot 821 a-a... affirm climb, descending.

ATC: Aeroflot 821, turn right to heading 360, descent to 600.

Captain to ATC: Turn right to 360, descending 600, Aeroflot 821.

Captain: look at the vertical speed indicator! F.ck!

Copilot: F.ck, Rodion (Captain's name). F.ck! Where is it?

Captain to ATC: Aeroflot 821, You mind if I continue approach?

Copilot: Heh! Where are you? What are you doing?

ATC: 821, heading 360, descend 600, expect "go around" procedure!

Captain to ATC: 360, descending 600, Aeroflot 821.

ATC: 821, Are you all right?

Captain: Aeroflot 821, affirm.

ATC: 821, Roger, you must perform my instruction strictly! Expect vectoring to final, turn right 360, descend 600

Captain to ATC: descending 600, heading 360, Aeroflot 821.

Copilot: Take the control! Take!
Captain: I can't! You take!

Copilot: Turn back!!!

Crew: F.ck!

Copilot: F.ck, what are we doing?

ATC: with Approach 121.7

Copilot: F.ck your mother! F.ck up!

Denti
1st Feb 2010, 19:15
Watching that video and reading the transcript on the side makes for quite a horror-story. Correcting to the wrong side, not being sure what to do and overwhelmed by simply flying is not really good.

Guess there are several things to learn. Thorough training is absolutely paramount when switching from one AI presentation to another, even more so when switching between fundamentally different operated airplanes (4 vs 2 man crew), as well as a healthy reporting culture about substance abuse of flight crews.

HeadingSouth
1st Feb 2010, 22:27
To the best of my knowledge the accident of a Crossair Saab 340 in Nassenwil near Zurich, Switzerland, was due to a eastern pilot as PF and a different design of the eastern and western artificial horizons.

Having read the transcript and watched the video where any correction of "Bank Angle" warnings lead to even steeper turns make one think of the artificial horizon.

Read with interest the previous posters comments about CRM during training - and what about the alcohol ?

vovachan
2nd Feb 2010, 16:50
East is east and west is west...

actually the good old USSR used both types of AIs for decades, didn't seem to cause many issues. On the other hand those guys had spent years staring at a different type of AI, so confusion may be possible.

dicksorchard
8th Feb 2010, 18:19
As a very regular pax can someone explain to me briefly in Laymans language exactly what happened in relation to the cause of crash ?

I read the cockpit transcript and watched the you tube video and it frightened the crapout of me ! I sometimes have to fly Aeroflot . so you can understand my concern .

lomapaseo
8th Feb 2010, 20:39
As a very regular pax can someone explain to me briefly in Laymans language exactly what happened in relation to the cause of crash ?

I read the cockpit transcript and watched the you tube video and it frightened the crapout of me ! I sometimes have to fly Aeroflot . so you can understand my concern .

I thought that the following post by

Vovachan below was sucinct enough. If you want to lessen your concern than you would have to delve much deeper into the corrective actions recommended by the investigating agency, if any, and the addressing of these concerns by the operator

due to pilot shortage those guys were quickly re-trained so they were marginally proficient on the Boeing. Plus they were confused abt navigation, one was inebriated, the plane was listing to one side. They were used to an easier workload in a 4 man cockpit, so they just couldn't handle it IMO.

vovachan
8th Feb 2010, 22:31
To this I might add that the crashed flight even though it nominally flew under the Aeroflot flag was operated by a smaller regional co.

My concern is with the massive retirement of their legacy Soviet fleets in recent years replaced with Airbuses and Boeings, where do the Russians get the qualified ppl to fly them???

SaturnV
15th Mar 2010, 22:32
Russia's Prosecutor General's Office declares that the pilot flying was intoxicated, and became disoriented.

Alcohol Cited in 2008 Russian Crash - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/world/europe/16aeroflot.html?hp)