Basings EK/EY/QR - informal Vote

[woodja51]

I thought that you were all bored so have decided to see what sort a response might be evoked by trying to get an informal vote on how potential basings would be received by EK/EY and QR pilots?

Given the huge and ever increasing cost of accommodation, inflation etc in all these locations, if you were to be offered a basing would you take it?

The deal would be -

gross salary ( housing/ pension/ school fees/ wages/overtime and health care/Loss of Licence).

You pay your own tax from this - like a sub contractor.

Fly 750 hours per year- same time off ( 42 days leave)

Instead of doing ( as an example )

DXB - SYD - DXB with 24 hours off you would do SYD - DXB ( 24 hours off) - SYD ...... 5 days off - repeat. Something like this.

Same would go for Melb/Per/Bne - maybe even NZ say a week of shuttles of something.

The same could be done for the US market when LAX/SFO/HOUSTON/JFK/TORONTO are all fired up.

I know this has all been said before but I had heard a rumour that EY had considered this, perhaps if some 'cleverer' than me person made a better business case they might listen?

I still maintain that if the ME operators are unable to provide adequate housing at what they are prepared to pay in the local markets, maybe they should look at overseas/remote rostering or the like.

They all seem to bitch about the price of fuel and keep asking us to save it - maybe if they looked at other options to 'motivate' us to do it they may have better success.

I had an F/O the other day who is still jammed in temporary accomodation with a wife and two kids in a two bed apartment... he thought he should ask for leave without pay until they can house him in what they promised?? Not a bad point really?

So if any of you read this vote 'yes or no' and when I get enough responses
I might push it further (or at least use it for my MBA project!!)

By the way if any of the EK/EY or QR managers are reading this at all - the first outfit to offer this possibility will signal 'game over' for the others - especially if it happened to be EK!!

But I dream.... :eek:

[P.Clostermann]

I would sign up immediatly!

4 ON/ 4 OFF sounds really tempting!


O look...there.....THERE....PINK ELEPHANTS!

[Wiley]

woodja, there's only one, unfortunately fatal flaw in your logic about all the savings to be made by basings: many of those housing etc expenses for the airline go to... the people who own the airline. Money out of one pocket and into another.

For what it's worth, add my vote to saying I'd like to see it introduced in some shape or form. However,it ain't gonna happen until 'They' are dragged screaming into accepting it because they can't get any starters willing to up stakes and come to the Sandpit. With the recent flood of US CRJ drivers who've been found to be suitable applicants for either seat by all three airlines, that isn't likely to be soon.

Why not ask the mods to make this a poll?

[PIPE RIDER]

You see what happens to an expat during ramadan, boredom makes him think nonsense, will NEVER happen............:ugh:

[Jet II]

The deal would be -

gross salary ( housing/ pension/ school fees/ wages/overtime and health care/Loss of Licence).



Why would you include housing and school fees? - surely if you are based in Europe (or wherever) you pay the rate that generally applies in Europe?

[Trader]

No health care since that is covered by the clinic. Have the based guys fly in in, do 2-4 days of night turns and then go back. The guys in DXB will not sit around while the guys get based and also get the nice long trips - pain will be spread!!!

[Fluke]

If it did ever happen and it won't with current management views ! I think you would find the basings set up only for direct entry captains. Captains already employed would be forced to resign and rejoin a new shelf company with differing conditions. Much the same as SQ set up SQ Mauritius.

Must admit it would give the first middle eastern carrier to do it alot of cudos. Also if they were ever to do it in Australia, say with B777 freighters it would only be at Jetstar/VAustralia wage levels. Blah!

I vote No. Only because if I were staying in the M.E. I would like access to as many flights as possible going home.

[FlyingCroc]

The airline that would do it here in the sandpit will never have a problem to get qualified pilots. No complaints about those HOU, LAX flights anymore. Those who want the AUS or USA base would be happier and so will the airline. I wonder why they did not thought about it yet. I bet Korean and other Asian airlines would have a tough time to get anymore expat pilots. :p

[Jet II]

The airline that would do it here in the sandpit will never have a problem to get qualified pilots.

Are they having a problem now?

[FlyingCroc]

If you read here in the forums you see that all middle east airlines have trouble to recruit, there was a thread, I think it is now deleted, how QR is desperate and take now CRJ captains DEC. Problems to find FO's, problem in upgrades etc. I think with the basing there will not be a shortage anymore.

[tbaylx]

That was until airlines started dropping like flies and putting a huge number of pilots into the market. Now they are filling up courses a year in advance. It'll take awhile before they are short again.

[NoJoke]

Tbalx, you are absolutely correct. However, the Companies that fall in certain parts of the world spawn other stronger versions that will eventually compete, successfully, with the likes of the Middle East operators.

[ekwhistleblower]

Goodness, a CRJ DEC at QR....you have to be kidding.

[pool]

we all agree that at a certain point basing are cheaper. First if housing stays the nightmare it is actually. Second with the kind of ULR operations, especially if looking at a "around the world' operation.
With a greedy management like EK, and considering it would be cheaper, the question arises WHY they don't go ahead with it.
Simple answer: Paranoia. And this means it's here to stay. As simple as that.

[Dixons Cider]

Its all about supply and demand. Whilst there's a steady stream of qual'd drivers prepared to come to the 'pit, there's no need to offer basings. We were getting close recently, but as we all know the game has changed yet again. Agreed that the first Gulf carrier that does it in the next round of 'shortage', will instantaneously have applicants flocking to sign up.

EY were very close to putting something in place last year for SYD, until a large supply of pilots presented themselves. Also, the question was put to EY management at a meeting earlier this year, and I was surprised at the answer - if it becomes beneficial, it will be considered. The costings are quite complex and not as obvious as it might seem, but when benefit out weighs cost....

Whereas the current EK stance seems to be (from what I hear) - no.

The argument of wanting to keep the salaries in the region doesn't hold water to me. There's just too much liquidity here for them to give a toss about our measly pay packets, its fades into the background in the big picture.

More important I reckon is the empoyment contracts we're on, and how they wouldn't hold water in the real world, a lawyer would have a feild day with them. For that reason, I agree with a previous poster - outbased crew would have to be hired by some kind of crewing shelf company.

Anyway, ramble over.
So Woodja :ok:, would I take an outbasing - bloody oath!
Would I do it if my net package reduced - I'd have a damn good look at it.
....and if they waved it under my nose during ramadan - I'd sign on the spot!

[halas]

In the big scheme of things, do you really think accommodation is in the top ten issues in EK?

In the big scheme of things there are a small fraction of the staff inconvenienced by a lack of suitable accommodation. It will be sorted out in the EK's time and to their stisfaction, and not any one elses. As far as they are concerned, there is no issue and your not out on the street, are you?

And like has been said before, if MF / TC / AS / ED / etc have to live here......so do you.

Nothing will change. Particularly when you see the the fleet diversify.
In a few years there will be A330 / A340 / A350 / A380 / B777 / B748.
I don't know what will be CCQ, but it doesn't matter.

Commercial is a powerful division. If they want an aircraft swap on a particular route, they get it. We have all seen this.

If there are unqualified crew on that route, then how do commercial get their way?

There are easier ways for this mob to save $ than have based crew who would be nothing more than an inconvenience and an announce.

So why would basings be even considered?

halas

And Dixon, l agree with 100% Mate!

[fatbus]

New group of pilots to the region think they can better run the Mid East airlines .
Same same but different,, ya ya heard it all before. Pilot wages and cost of housing them in DXB is not even close to a drop in a bucket, put your energy into having fun instead of getting your hopes up. You will live longer.

[FlyingCroc]

and that means as someone mentioned supply and demand. Therefore with the inflation and the substandard lifestyle, there is a breaking point, especially with the current orders of hundreds of aircraft in the Middle East. If the Korean, Chinese, Japanese etc are able to base outside why would that not happen in the sandpit at some point, especially for the ultra long/haul pilots.

[Wiley]

why would that not happen in the sandpitP.O.W.E.R. ...or the loss thereof.

[Flying Spag Monster]

One problem the pro basing crowd have is their suggested plan always involves doing a few long haul flights and that's it. Those that can't or don't want to base get the long haul desireable flights taken away. If your plan involved operating to DXB then doing a week of crap night turns then operating home, 5 days off then back into it again it might draw more support. Having the cake and eating it too seems to be the plan. I would love to base but wont waste a prayer to the FSM asking for it to happen.

[FlyingCroc]

Maybe 4 times HOU or SYD. Based in the US you could do any flight from LAX, JFK, HOU whatever, 4 flights a month, 4 nights in DXB, you probably would not have time left to do turn-arounds from DXB. And I think everyone is happy not to do the ultra-longhauls to the US?

[woodja51]

Thanks for the rapid and voluminous inputs chaps..

As I said this was just a social experiment, but it seemed to generate some interest.

That in itself indicates a topical issue anyway.

I don't really expect that anything would change but to keep putting wages up 10-12 % per annum to keep pace with the CPI and rentals etc would seem to be worth another look.

as far as spreading the long haul etc around that point is taken too - maybe the shelf company concept is a good one..

I am not that over the sand pit that I want to pull the pin tomorrow but I note that there is a tend to dissatisfaction in folks that have been in DXb for about ten years.. this seemed like it might be a way for guys to see what it might be like back at home etc , possibly solve some issues with housing costs and availability etc

But as pointed out probably very unrealistic to expect in the short term..

On another matter, maybe if you accrue 100 credits for idle reverse and single engine taxi you can get an extra ALT... any thoughts on that one for ED? might motivate more guys to do it... yes another silly idea I know.... bit like a fuel bonus... :ugh:

[fourgolds]

Another option would be to keep the existing package and keep us all in the Middle East( therebye satisfying the leadership that we are living there and contributing to their economy, even though it costs more than basing us out [Duh!] , but to give us 9 days off consecutively.
Bring back the jumpseat and therebye alow a "commute". The only thing I can see is a dog fight for the jumpseat , but it might work. In the absence of common sense for basing us like CX , or KAL.

As for attrition ,the Irony is that it suits the company when its senior Captains ( 10 years +) , leave them anyway as they cost them more than the more junior guys.

Alas this is a thread for dreamers anyway. Its from the horses mouth NO BASINGS !!!! , would be nice though.