View Full Version : Air Accident Checklist

14th Sep 2008, 07:32
I have been reading Rumours & News over the past few days and now, on the verge of self-harm, have decided to put together some guidelines for the muppets among us.

Have posted it here in JB to save the inevitable thread move should I have dropped it in R&N:


And please don't post me any drivel about people just being concerned.
You can use your neighbour's fence or the cashier at Tesco for that.

Flying Farmer
14th Sep 2008, 12:39
Bored again, pub shut ;)

14th Sep 2008, 15:32

14th Sep 2008, 16:43
Make a grand gesture of sympathy tacked onto the end! Something like 'RIP to all concerned', or 'may their soles rest in peace!' (yes, I know that's their shoes, but hardly anybody here can spell anyway).

14th Sep 2008, 17:22
It's just been getting so out of hand up there.

Even reading the Russian thread now is just painful.

Everything I have mentioned down to the METAR and Jepp plates have made an appearance, plus the RIPs and the photos etc.

14th Sep 2008, 18:06
Just curious....what do you approve of in the way of accident discussions?

Loose rivets
14th Sep 2008, 18:33
Then there's the one about waiting for the report to come out.

"What's the point of all this speculation when competent authorities will be publishing a full and accurate report in a year or so?"

What's the point in saying that?

a/ we want to get some idea now.
b/ we want to annoy someone like you.
c/ we like doing it. (discussing and annoying in equal measure)
d/ we think that you have as much sense as an Aardvark and have as much chance of stopping us speculating, as you have stopping the biggest steam train in the world -- with your nose....so F:mad:k orf.

14th Sep 2008, 18:41
Pprune is a Professional Pilots Forum - at least, that is what I think it started out as. The popularity of the forum has meant that its audience now contains quite a lot of folks who feel the need to comment on things that are aviation related and some do it with an air that they actually know what is going on.
Some of these heads wouldn't know a flightdeck if it fell on them.

I am all for healthy debate around accidents and incidents and whatever else may come along but it is clear that the majority of the aviation industry professionals on this forum are tired of reading the same old meaningless drivel from posters who don't know their arse from their elbow in relation to flying planes or anything else remotely connected to that.

Those who feel the urge to harp on about reasons and potential causes for accidents. The people who fall somewhere between the armchair and a copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

This argument has been done to death - and reiterating it would take all night trying to explain that there is so much more to flying a passenger jet than 20 frames per second and an electronic voice-synthesised co-pilot from JustFlight!

I know that there are arguments for free speech and giving people their say but take a moment to let the following sink in.
As aviation professionals, when an accident happens, (let's take the Russian crash as an example) we do not need:

A photo of the Boeing 737 - we know what it looks like. See them every day.
Same as we don't need the reg or the history of the machine.

A copy of the event from CNN, Sky, Av Herald, BBC, NBC.....just one is fine.

The airport information and METAR etc posted - why? Some would say to give the weather data - but for most it is just to spout on about the weather "possibly being a factor".....the majority of those who post them can probably only understand the date on it and just know the website to source it because some other dabbler told them about it!

The approach plate for Perm - why? What could I possibly want to see on that? I guarantee that most of those who post them have, just like the METAR freaks, no idea what they are for or how they are used.....some have a VAGUE IDEA of what it is for. And those same vague ideas cause the next type of unwanted post...

I don't care what you think happened. Until the official investigation - YOU HAVE NO IDEA what happened! No one does, apart from POSSIBLY, the crew.
And if you have never been behind the controls of a passenger aircraft or been actively involved in the industry then you have no real credit to offer any tuppence worth about what happened.

This idle speculation is then picked up and carried off by the gutter press and other numpties with a copy of X-Plane and FlightSim and the farce evolves from there!

We do not need a Google map of the crash site. For God's sake! What is that required for? Oh, I know! It's so you can see the road layout and the roundabout and train-tracks while you conduct an "investigation" of your own!

Sympathies to the families of the crew and passengers....Spare me! These are people that you do not know! Do you post all over the forums for your local paper passing on condolences to the families of the Iraq conflict or the countless numbers of people killed in traffic accidents - I think not!

Ending, as Rainboe put it, with "RIP to all concerned" - makes you look like a tosser and someone who has no idea what they are on about. It belittles the severity of the loss.

All in all, the majority of posts made about accidents on this forum are made by interfering amateurs with no idea of the workings of the industry, or those with a smattering of knowledge who feel that it gives them carte blanche to spurt out any kind of garbage about incidents, and base their entire sad lives between a joystick and elbowing their way into affairs that they have less than half an idea about. Mallet-heads!

I could go on and on, but there really is no point.

Loose rivets
14th Sep 2008, 19:00
Flippin' 'ek Lad, we'd better get you back to some nice cool snow...that sand's not doing you any good at all.:cool:

14th Sep 2008, 19:19
Farrell pretty well summed up the reason that I seldom partake in an accident thread. When I first joined Pprune I did post some of my thoughts regarding a Boeing 727 accident. I mistakenly assumed that I could add some in site to the accident, not the cause, as I have over 7,000 hours of flying the 727. However, my 40 years and 21,000 hours of being a professional pilot were not only ignored, but I was actually ridiculed by a couple of people who's only admitted experience was that as passengers and that they had flown a 727 in a computer game.

Despite my experience, coupled with the fact that I successfully completed the NTSB Aircraft Accident Investigator Schools levels I and II, I decided that I could not compete against the low time pilots, armchair and computer game experts that flood the threads on accidents.

Therefore, except to ask a quick question, I mostly avoid accident threads.

Farrel has it spot on.

14th Sep 2008, 20:19
Genius posting Farrell. Please put it up for every accident, with a selection of pious and extremely mawkish commiserations- like 'please select one of the below at the end:
RIP to all concerned
Condolences to the victims and relatives
Great sympathies to all
My thoughts with the family of the pax and crew' (why? sick bastard!)

green granite
14th Sep 2008, 20:26
We do not need a Google map of the crash site. For God's sake! What is that required for?

Yes you do, how else are you going to know where the school is that the Pilot was wrestling with the controls to avoid. :E

14th Sep 2008, 20:38
Yes you do, how else are you going to know where the school is that the Pilot was wrestling with the controls to avoid.

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are. :ok:

west lakes
14th Sep 2008, 20:42
A couple of additional additional ones:-
Always ask a question that a couple of minutes searching on the net will answer

e.g. What aircraft does this UK company operate
Plenty of sites out there to find the answer

Always ask a question/make a comment that appears a few pages earlier to prove that you are too lazy to read the thread

OK when it's 40 pages long it may take some time - tough

Lafyar Cokov
14th Sep 2008, 21:50
I'm afraid this thread is absolutely dispicable - I hope you are ashamed of yourself Farrell and anyone else who has posted on it condoning his thoughts -

I mean he hasn't even mentioned the f***ing awful poetry that seems to appear on every death thread!!!!

Oh I have slipped the surely bonds of decency..........

Loose rivets
15th Sep 2008, 05:13
I can see by your name that you'd be concerned about giving anything more that a modest titter.

15th Sep 2008, 05:27
I think the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I..." is mandatory also.

As well as "I'm not a pilot and would never speculate but (insert speculation and comparison to another crash) - Then qualify it all with sympathies for families of all concerned.:eek:

And outrage must be registered for any inaccuracy in the aircraft type mentioned or SOP described by the media who "got it wrong...yet again :ugh::ugh::ugh:".

15th Sep 2008, 07:09
It is also mandatory to devote at least 25% of the thread to ridicule and savage the ignorant media for getting all of the terminology wrong and for only quoting terrified witnesses and the local police.


udachi moya
15th Sep 2008, 08:48
I have to say that some of the posts herein the pages of pprune are becoming akin to pure media speculation and uneducated guesses from those numpties who have no knowledge of how we do our jobs day in and day out.
Pictures of aircraft pre-accident -- ooh I recognise that piece - thats got to be the logo..... sick
Unless a post is in memorium of an individual, posts of condolence have no place in an rumour mill - sorry to add in here but also feeling sorry for and expressing sorrow for job losses is also another bandwidth issue I have......
I for one stopped reading newspapers about 10 years ago, I can safely claim that I do not and will not pick up someones opinion from a newspaper, its mostly sensationalism written to sell newspapers, pprune has a dire problem of following this route - it is becoming a forum for open discussions by armchair MS FSimmers and spooters ( spotters in another form..) thinking they have inside information or knowledge of every SOP behind every aircraft.

15th Sep 2008, 20:37
I like these kind of discussions in Jet Blast where one can pluck your strings like I do with my wife to get her to leave first. Than evrything will be to my liking as I will be all alone and can freely post with no threat of rebuke.

And to the lord and King I really did like your list for it causes some to think before they post. It's just your opinions that I don't buy. :}

Evening Star
15th Sep 2008, 21:29
As one of those who has posted on the Perm 737 crash thread, I do nevertheless recognise what Farrell writes, especially with regard to the predictability of crash threads. Furthermore, knowing that this place is primarily for professional pilots and others employed in the industry, outside of Jet Blast, spotters and SLF I am very aware that any posting by myself needs a very clear reason. So, with that in mind, allow me to set out for comment my reasons for posting on the Perm 737 thread:

- Where people are asking for news about events in Russia, even when in Blighty I have access to Russian media (bloody great satellite dish on side of house to keep Mrs ES quiet) and can make a reasonable attempt at translation. It is news and if I can make it accessible to those who might want to know, then perhaps I should. Making quite clear that my source is the media says this information needs taking with caution, especially where the media is strongly state controlled.

- The 'in memory' thing is tricky. My ethical take is that if somebody is recently deceased it is right to refer to them as RIP. That is respect, not tears. Tears for those who one does not know are crocodile tears, yet neither should their death be taken lightly, which does seem to be another tacit guideline here where the accident happens outside of the 'First World'.

So, comments? It would seem to me that the test for posting is does the post provide a worthwhile contribution to news or, later, debate. Not in a position to provide debate (well, unless the issue turns on hydrology, when I will make comment!) the threshold of providing news needs to be higher than simply linking to the BBC. Is that fair and reasonable? As for reasons concerning in memory, freely I admit to irritation at how light-hearted the thread seemed to be turning (plus a modicum of self-interest as I fly a lot in Russia). Fails the test but hopefully concentrates minds.

Actually, flaming would not worry me for these points (well, maybe just a little bit, so keep it to toasting please...) as, aware that I am a guest here, am quite truthfully looking to learn.

16th Sep 2008, 02:39
It is also mandatory to devote at least 25% of the thread to ridicule and savage the ignorant media for getting all of the terminology wrong and for only quoting terrified witnesses and the local police.

Does that include 5% thread bandwidth to chastise the photographer?, professional or otherwise, who took the photograph of the accident occuring, which you are discussing, using the photograph to discuss the accident.

A/ That the images you're discussing should only be available to the accident investigation team, and that the snapper is a complete :mad: for taking the picture.

B/ That the money/profit from the image sales goes to a charity, that helps prevent small children getting saucepans stuck on their heads in Uzbekistan.

Especially important for airshow accident images/video that appear in snoozepapers, Uchoob, or the on the sh##pump.