Legal logging of ICUS

[das Uber Soldat]

Gday, did a quick search but didn't dig up anything to help unfortunately.

I'm looking to legally log ICUS. I work for a flight training organization with charter on our AOC. What I am looking to do is 'setup' a charter run as it is my understanding that ICUS is not applicable to private ops.

Is anyone informed as to the legal requirements in both setting up the charter 'run' and the correct and legal way ICUS may be obtained in this operation?

[Horatio Leafblower]

G'day Hyper-soldier

1/. What do you mean by "set up a charter run"?

2/. To be legal ICUS you (as the ICUS pilot) must be fully qualified to act as pilot in command of that flight, ie: type endorsed, instrument rated and current, night rated and current, and approved by your CP to act ICUS as per whatever wise words are in your Ops Manual.

I am afraid your question(s) are not very clear, which makes it very hard to help :oh:

Are you trying to set something up like Johnston Aviation's old Bank run/ICUS arrangement?
:hmm:

[43Inches]

Hears the CAR ref;

5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or
her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as
pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as
pilot acting in command only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence,
that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a
licence; and
(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly
the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating
is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of
flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that
activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict
liability

Definition of ICUS;

(3) For the purposes of this Part, a person flies an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision if, during flight time in the aircraft, the
person performs the duties and functions of the pilot in command
while under the supervision of the pilot in command approved for the
purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

If you meet the requirements (CPL or ATPL, endorsed on aircraft and rated for operation) it really comes down to having an operator "appoint" you. (I'm pretty sure that this effectively rules out PVT ops.) If you can convince your "operator" (somebody in the company of some authority like the CP or the Man Dir) to appoint an pilot to act ICUS then log it. If you've got stick in the mud bosses who won't budge then that's unfortunate. Of course, the argument to put to the boss is that by logging ICUS you may work your way into being more qualified under their insurance requirements (more total time and more total mulit-time) thereby giving them a more versatile employee (they may question your subsequent request for more pay as a more qualified pilot).

ICUS is a great tool for increasing capabilities and keeping up skills (notice I avoided the word "training" as that's what Dual time is for). It's easier to keep current (comply with the VFR but be under the hood so log Inst Flight Time), builds the hours of two pilots at one time, encourages discussion between colleagues etc etc etc.

Any questions feel free to PM. If your company give you a reason for not approving I'd be interested in knowing what it is so please post the answer (they may simply not want particular people handling particular aeroplanes but that's their call).

FRQ CB

[Horatio Leafblower]

OK so...

If I have Bloggs doing ICUS and I am in the right seat, "supervising" (sleeping :ok:) you contend that I can log that time also?

[43Inches]

The PIC doesn't have to monitor the flight path all the time as long as he/she has designated an appropriate crew member to fly while he's down the back, eating, reading an essential document, etc... they still log PIC while the others log co-pilot time. It does sorta suggest though that they should be supervising an ICUS pilot, but doesn't say as to what extent, eg instructors can have two seperate methods of supervision, direct or indirect. If you were asleep and something was to happen, well, the ICUS guy is still a co-pilot and your still responsible as PIC.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Yup. There's always got to be a PIC and if the ICUS guy is flying then who is it? Having said that if the pilot acting ICUS is under the hood then the PIC would be wise to be awake. (to people clocking up Total Time at 100% with only one aeroplane flying).

Also, there is no such thing as a CASA mandated Right Hand Seat endorsement (some flying schools will issue one of their own accord). If you want to know (from a non-instructor) how long it takes to learn how to fly with the yoke in the right hand (presuming, of course that one already knows how to do it with the left hand) it takes about 30 seconds. You can expect to not have as much finesse but that's about it.

FRQ CB

[Meatbomb Dropper]

If you cant log ICUS in private ops....

what am i gonna do about the 10 hours "icus" my employer made me do?? was I really PIC? or was the other bloke PIC and i shouldnt have logged anything?

Am i gonna have problems with this??

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Hmmm, I suppose that an operator can assign you to ICUS on PVT ops. Are you sure it wasn't AWK or non-pax CHTR? Sounds to me that you were ICUS; I have no real backing for my generalisation about PVT ops... my bad.

FRQ CB

[Horatio Leafblower]

The Regs use the term "operator" and I humbly submit that in its normal usage, and in the context of the CPL/ATPL required, the legislator's intention is that ICUS is a facility for professional pilots and their employers.

This then is a controlled situation described in the operator's Ops Manual... not two PPLs from the Dero Club roaring around in the 182 and both logging the hours :rolleyes:

I would suggest the actual classification of that flight (CHTR, PVT, AWK, RPT) is immaterial.

[43Inches]

This is the main reason for ICUS to exist;

8A Conditions on aircraft endorsements
8A.1 For the purposes of regulation 5.25, it is a condition of each command endorsement
that authorises the holder of the endorsement to fly an aeroplane with a maximum
take-off weight of more than 5 700 kg that the holder of the endorsement must not act
as pilot in command of such an aeroplane if:
Civil Aviation Order 40.1.0 17
(a) the aeroplane is engaged in charter operations, or regular public transport
operations; and
(b) the aeroplane’s flight manual specifies that it may be flown under the I.F.R.;
unless the holder satisfies the aeronautical experience requirements set out in
paragraph 8A.2.

8A.2 Unless CASA otherwise approves, the endorsement holder’s aeronautical experience
must consist of:
(a) at least 50 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision in
the type of aeroplane concerned; or
(b) at least:
(i) 25 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision in the
type of aeroplane concerned; and
(ii) the successful completion of an approved training course conducted in an
approved synthetic flight trainer.


Note

The circumstances in which a person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command
under supervision are set out in regulation 5.40.

8A.3 Unless CASA otherwise directs, the flight time mentioned in subparagraph 8A.2 (a)
and sub-subparagraph 8A.2 (b) (i) must include at least 10 flights each of at least
45 minutes.

As stated in the previous post the "operator" will have a schedule of training which outlines procedures to be followed for logging of ICUS in the ops manual.

Remember that PIC is not necessarily pilot flying, ICUS is designed to prepare the candidate for the "command role", that is the all over capability to make operational decisions from planning to diversion, assigning tasks to FO/FA, passenger issues, compliance with SOPs, etc... Generally the candidate should have sound flying abilities prior to commencing ICUS in any aircraft. This then ensures that the true PIC is just there to guide or monitor the candidates decision making process, not to provide a quasi instructor position and be on edge to take over if a landing goes wrong or similar.

[j3pipercub]

MEATBOMBER DROPPER.

Log it is command, tell Al that unless he gets his CPL he cant give ICUS. And get out of there as soon as you can.

[Icarus53]

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and

This is the phrase that might bring some people unstuck. Can you be considered a co-pilot if the aircraft is certified as being for single pilot operations?

Whether you agree with it or not (and for the record I don't), this phrase in the Regs strongly suggests that ICUS was established for the purpose of training multi-crew co-pilots for their command upgrade. Using ICUS purely to rack up hours for two pilots instead of one would seem to me to be outside the intent of the CAR.

Perhaps someone less lazy than myself will dig up the reference to who/how/when you can be appointed as co-pilot?

[Meatbomb Dropper]

no, thankfully its not him. I was almost caught there, but when he told me it would take me over three months to simply make back the cost of the endorsement he couldnt see me for the dust.

its another company, i think, but dont know for sure, that the other pilot has a CPL, but im certain the aircraft is single-pilot, and because its parachuting, im certain the flights are private, not airwork or charter, and im certain the company doesnt have an approved ops manual.

:mad::mad:

[das Uber Soldat]

hmm, all interesting replies and my thanks.

This then is a controlled situation described in the operator's Ops Manual... not two PPLs from the Dero Club roaring around in the 182 and both logging the hours :rolleyes:To be clear then what you're saying is legality depends on whether or not the operation I embark on is listed specifically in the ops manual. Not only having the approval of the CP (which I do). Hence I think I need to carefully go over the ops manual to judge exactly what is outlined as acceptable.

[43Inches]

CAR Definition;

Co-pilot means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the
pilot in command.

As long as the company appoints you as co-pilot than thats what you are. Some companies even make up fancy names like First and Second officer, cruise FO and so on. On a multi crew aeroplane you must have one, on single pilot aircraft the operator can still nominate a co-pilot at their discretion.

As far as the charter ambitions go they must be in compliance with your operations manual. Your ops manual must have a section regarding charter and also a section outlining specific aircraft operational procedures for each aircraft you use for the charter, also ensure the companies carriers liability insurance is up to date to cover you if something goes wrong, it's illegal to operate without it.

All companies i've worked for have had an entry in the ops manual regarding ICUS so it would be unusual for it not to be there.

[Meatbomb Dropper]

My companys ops manual is a collection of looseleaf pages, and talks about drop zones a lot, but very little about flying... nothing about two-crew ops, absolutely nothing about ICUS, just the usual parachute thing about 10 hours on type...

[scrufflefish]

But as a skydive operation I assume they don't have an AOC anyway.

[bushy]

Any company that is selling ICUS on charter flights is surely using training flights for charter. Training is not permitted on charter flights. Charter passengers deserve fully trained crew.
Sure there is checking, where a check pilot observes, but if there is a continual use of newly endorsed, supervised pilots, then that must be training. Especially if the pilots are paying for the experience.