Naughty kids, bad parenting, exhausted cabin crew [Archive]

Little_Red_Hat

14th Sep 2008, 17:06

I kindly point out that we are an airline, NOT a babysitting service...

I'll do my best to help a parent out, but when it's clear Mum or Dad is in oblivious land and making absolutely no effort whatsoever... then it's time for a little chat. I have all the time in the world for parents who are clearly trying to control their kids (some kids are just brats, after all)

Do I have stories about oblivious parents though.... enough to fill a book!

One time, little Johnny kept running around in the aisle. I warned mum that Johnny ran the risk of being hurt as carts were in the aisle, tea & coffee pots about, etc etc and could she please keep him in his seat during the meal service.

Sure enough, little Johnny got out of his seat,(for the 9th or 10th time) and not only tried to trip me over (on purpose, because the little bugger laughed!!!) with a coffee pot, but then proceeded to wipe sticky lolly hands on another crew's shirt. When the rubbish cart came out, Johnny jumped out from a row of seats behind the crew member and got knocked over. (Surprise surprise)

Guess which mother ranted and raved and threatened to sue?? I told her to go right ahead and write a complaint to the ailrine if she liked, and informed her that by the time they got it they'd have a full account of her & her Johnny's behaviour on the desk, informing them that she had been warned of the possible consequences.

(BTW, Johnny was old enough to know better, about 7 or 8 years old!!!!!)

HighHeeled-FA

14th Sep 2008, 17:19

Happned 2 weeks ago. P*ssed me off something chronic. 2 "boys" 14 maybe 15 calling me babes! Obviously learned this disgusting direspectful way of talking to women from their dads. First time they said it, after i recovered from the shock, i said what my real name was. I then looked at the dad hoping for a little support but all he did was laugh.

Happned all throughout the flight, even when i was just walking past them.

jetset lady

15th Sep 2008, 16:12

Sorry, dangerous territory here but what is it with parents who think that we should be as enamoured with their little darlings as they are? I recently came back from a typical holiday destination and it was full to the brim of families. Despite repeated attempts to get them to stop the children standing on the seats, the kids carried on bouncing around as they felt like it. When I pointed out to one besotted mother that it really wasn't nice for the poor couple behind them to have her daughter hanging over the back of the seat staring at them for 2hrs 45, she couldn't understand why they weren't as charmed by her precious daughter as she was!

Maybe it's the summer holiday syndrome but I am sick of hearing the same old things. Anyone recognise any of these?

"I can't wake him up, he'll cry....."
And he's going to cry a whole lot more when he hits the ceiling!

"She can't help it, she's only little....."
But you are not! That is your job, to help her help it!

"Don't you have any toys for the children....?"
Do we look like bl**dy Toys R US!

"Oh, but they're bored. It's a long flight....."
So go to Butlins until they are old enough to behave or you get the guts to control them! They will be just as happy with Butlins. It's you that wants to go abroad!

"She's hot/she's cold...."
Take her cardi off/bring a cardi!

"I know she's kicking the seat but surely they know she's just a child...."
Madam, the fact they've just asked me where the fire axe is kept suggests that they don't really care that she's just a child. I suggest you sit in front of her for a while.

"Ahh bless! How funny is he...."
Errr...He's not!

"But my 3 yr old, 4 yr old and 5 yr old want to sit together. We are just behind them so we can keep an eye on them....."
Right and what are you going to do in a decompression when they can't reach the oxygen, or if they unfasten their seatbelts just before we touch down etc.?

And finally, to finish this little rant, a good story to prove not all parents are the same. Following the safety demo on the same flight, one lady asked if it was possible for her little boy to have a closer look at the oxygen mask. I was happy to let him see it and as I continued securing the cabin, I heard her explaining to him exactly where it would be and what to do if Mummy couldn't help him put it on! That is one Mother I now have the upmost respect for!

Jsl

kachaduzba

24th Sep 2008, 17:50

And what is it with changing babies on the seat? I've had that few times and every time I "advised" them to use the toilet with the table they were very insulted. I've never had a baby and I start wondering - does your own baby's sh*t smell like roses, or what!?

Lauderdale

24th Sep 2008, 21:26

It's called 'British parenting skills'.................

gallie girl

25th Sep 2008, 04:39

On a recent flight between Dubai and Brunei, there were three young children aged between 12,10 and 5 sitting in the middle row of 3 seats. This seat was actually spare but once the aircraft took off they ran from their allocated seats to claim these ones. During the time they were sitting here, everybody was trying to sleep they punched each other - at one point the 12 year old brother king hit his 10 year old sister in the head, threw ice around the cabin, constantly wrestled each other, pressed the call bell non stop, and then after i entered the toilet after the elder brother, i found a plastic cup flushed down the toilet.. I fell asleep only to be woken not long after when a piece of ice hit me in the head. By now (this flight originated at Heathrow and was heading to Brisbane) I was infuriated. I got up out of my seat and yelled (maybe screamed) at these children to sit down shut up and stop being inconsiderate. After i finished my yelling i was warmly applauded by about 8 passengers sitting nearby. The little s**ts didn't make another noise. All my years working as a flight attendant I was never able to say what i thought, however as a passenger.. I was able to say EXACTLY what i pleased.

Little_Red_Hat

25th Sep 2008, 06:15

Lol Gallie Girl... haven't we all wanted t do that! How satisfying! :E

As for parents changing baby on the seat.. i politely inform them it's actually a health hazard for other pax and poo (well you know what i mean) belongs in the toilets, not the cabin as it will annoy everyone around them!

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 09:40

I wonder how many correspondents on this thread are parents? or even remember what it is to be a child?

I see lots of bad parenting in daily life, kids eating McDonalds & turning hyper for hours, lack of control by parents and so on, but children are not necessarily reasonable creatures.

My 18 month old toddler has at her stage of development, limited emotional responses, so conflict can produce tantrums. Regularly.

There are coping mechanisms for this, such as distraction and ignoring the problem, but in the confines of an aircraft, these can be difficult to apply succesfully and they don't come with guarantees. A little perspective would help, there are two sides to every situation.

astir 8

25th Sep 2008, 10:07

No there's not!

Children should be crated and checked as hold baggage :ok:

Thus speaks a childless frequent sufferer.

Little_Red_Hat

25th Sep 2008, 10:44

I regularly babysat children during my highschool and later years.I don't have any myself but I dont think that's an indicator. I've had the sleepless night, I've changed the stinky nappies, I've dealt with sick kids/temper tantrums/hissy fits... you name it. Yes, on a plane as well!!! No, I don't have kids myself- but you know why? I know it's difficult to deal with them, I travel to work, therefore, I chose not to have them! I shouldn't have to deal with everyone else's kids who don't want to deal with them, and neither should any crew. Some parents sem to expect us to be a babysitting service. THATS what we are complaining about.

I would never dream of changing a baby on a restaurant seat, or any other public place. Why should a plane be any different? I didn't say all parents are stupid, or that all situations are the same. It's nice when parents are trying. I understand, kids scream, cry, have tantrums. So we cut parents slack when they're trying. If mum and dad havent flown before we explain where to change baby, why little ones cannot sleep on the floor/play in the galley/endlessly press the call button. Its the ones who dont listen and/or dont care that we are complaining about. It seems manners and 'parental responsibility' have gone out of the window!

But a lot of the behaviour I see by kids on board is a direct result of parents either being oblivious ("it's the cabin crew's problem") or not giving a toss (My kids are darlings"/ "its not annoying me so why should i care"/ "i dont want to deal with it") so then they ignore it or hype the kids up on sweets, bribe them, or have a go at other pax or the crew when asked to 'deal with' their children's behaviour.

The attitude (a lot these days) seems to be its not the parents' problem Well sorry, newsflash, it IS. They are YOUR kids, not mine. I have a job to do (and it's not babysitting your kids, it's looking after all 300+ passengers on this plane thank you!) Sure, I will hold baby while you go to the bathroom, sure I will get your kid a colouring in kit, Sure, we have a kids' meal for your child. No, I will not sit in your seat while you go off in search of 5 drinks and a seat elsewhere. No, I cannot watch them so you can 'have a sleep'. I have a job to do, and so do you. Be a parent!!!

We're not talking the odd 'kid stuff' here... we KNOW often its not the kids' fault, its mum and dad's parenting skills (or lack of) Its the fact that some parents dont want to have anything to do with their kids on a flight, and let them run rampant. Often with the result of said kids getting stepped on/burnt/yelled at by some other pax.

I know when I was a kid, as another poster said, my mum/dad would give me the Look, and I would shut the hell up and do what i was told. No taking my seatbelt off, no kicking the seat in front, no throwing things. If I did, it was a smack on the arse for me and end of argument. Always worked, rarely needed. You hardly ever see that these days, any surprise we want to do it sometimes????

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 10:54

I can see your passion from the length of your post! I don't doubt a word you say & I don't expect to get much change from commenting here, however, reading this thread in it's entirety, one would believe everyone lives in number 4 Privet Drive!!

I've no time for poor parenting either, and kids are a parent's responsibility, but we were all kids once & I doubt that each contributor could claim to have been an angel 100% of the time - but I'd like to see them try!!:ok:

Little_Red_Hat

25th Sep 2008, 11:15

Hi, no, not saying kids are angels 100% of the time.. I know I wasnt... but my mum did her best to keep me in hand the times I decided to play up. Still, it usually didnt get past a stage 2 smack (after a stage 1 'Look', of course :})

The point I was trying to make (long-windedly I admit, hehe) is that crew have all the time in the world for the poor parents who DO try.... we're just sick of the attitude of the ones who don't.

As long as I can see mum or dad trying to keep the kids under control, that's enough for me. If I get extra time, I'll offer to watch them or I'll ask them about their book/toys/Nintendo DS etc. I just don't like being expected to when mum and dad want to get blotto on red wine and leave their job to someone else.

Hope this clears things up a bit, I'm not a child-hater!!! ;)

Lauderdale

25th Sep 2008, 11:18

Off course kids misbehave - that's why they are kids. An 99.99% of cabin crew will be delighted to help that mum taking one kid to the toilet whilst they look after the other.....etc etc

HOWEVER (...) here it comes.....what I have seen over many years as cc is the difference between kids from the UK and elsewhere. Overhere it is almost accepted as that parents do not want to take full responsability for themselves let alone their kids!

The level of anti-social behaviour that is seen in the streets everyday is taking onboard an a/c with an attitude of ".....I will do how I will do things and I don't give a s**t what anyone else thinks...".

I mean..........parents are in Club, kids down the back, well the cc will look after them! (....)???

Changing nappies on a seat???? the fact that it is a daily occurance is frightening....

Pax having a stand up fight with you because they cant get an alcoholic drink for their 15 year old????

"Give me milk for my baby!!!"......Why didnt you bring your own??

ETc etc etc

My fellow friends - reality is that the standard of social skills within the UK is poor at its best in most cases; and we are the blessed ones who have been given the pleasure of looking after this lot at 36.000ft, in a metal tube for a pittance.....

Joy!

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 12:08

I've experienced the full force of the chavvy families more than once on aircraft & I do sympathise - my sole concern is to put the other side of the argument, since reading through this thread, until I piped up, it wasn't there!

c_hostie

25th Sep 2008, 12:57

I had a late Tirana the other day and on the way home we had 14 infants. Pax sitting everywhere with babies and children over two on their laps, it took us aaaages to secure the cabin and move them around (only 3 oxygen masks on right hand side of a/c). Most of these families had children aged around 3-6, most of the kids were screaming and one lady had twins about 5 yrs old, one of them refused to sit in her own seat. So her mum was trying to hold her down on her lap and I insisted that she force the seatbelt around her child otherwise she could be seriously injured. But pax just don't seem to get this and all she said was 'she won't sit down, she doesn't want to'. I can't believe people will let their 5 year olds dominate them like this! And her father was sat 3 rows back on his own and just sat there laughing!

Lauderdale

25th Sep 2008, 13:08

I rest my case.................

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 13:35

No mention of the decent kids - that is human nature;)

I'm not seeking to make any other point than that this thread seems to me to be one loooong list of child bashing/parent slating. When the bad ones get onboard (and I bet you can spot them a mile away!) I realise your collective hearts must sink, but there is another side - the well behaved family. It's not in our nature to comment on that, but they're there I'm sure - I just place a little emphasis on that, that's all:ok: In fact, I have an idea, why not have a thread - Great pax, or smart passenger comments:}

squeaker

25th Sep 2008, 15:49

One of our hosties once had a baby handed to her by a passenger and was told to change her.
She took the infant to the front of the aircraft, where she knew another crew member who was travelling out with her young family on holiday, and duly returned to the offending passenger with a different baby, handing him over with a smile and a simple "there you are"..

I must admit some kids are little sods, but it seems too many parents seem to abdicate responsibility for their kids as soon as they board the aircraft, expecting someone else to ensure they behave.
All mums should have a "scary look" for child control purposes, I don't know if this is passed down through generations or learnt from a manual, but when they have it, it works!

By way of revenge, you could always slip the little dear a couple of cans of full fat Coke as they disembark, should guarantee mummy and daddy won't get much rest for the next few hours!

Shunter

25th Sep 2008, 18:27

All kids should be given a high dose of Dramamine pre flight. Knocks the little blighters outChloroform would be my preference, but tastes vary.

StaceyF

25th Sep 2008, 18:50

It's called 'British parenting skills'.................

Bravo that man/woman.

People look at me all peculiar when I say that people should

(a) have to pass a test before they're allowed to procreate
(b) upon passing that test of competence they're issued with *one* breeding licence
(c) no breeding licence = no State handouts of ANY kind

You'd stop the chavs breeding just like that......

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 19:18

Tell you what, if I bump into any of you guys at the airport, I'll buy you a cuppa - we'll both need cheering up after this thread!

Abusing_the_sky

25th Sep 2008, 19:24

Funny how, many moons ago, if i behaved like a brat, all that my mum had to do is give me the look.

I had a woman the other day, of course with the "little angel"
Little angel had an "accident".
Woman reaching for the call bell: Ding!
Me rushing: Yes madam?
- My daughter had a little accident. We need other seats.
- Sorry madam, the flight is fully booked, therefore we don't have any empty seats.
- OK, so are you going to clean this? (pointing to the damped seat)
No I am not madam, however i shall bring you lots of napkins for you to clean it.
- Me???
- Yes, you madam (smile)
- Do you call yourself an airline? You expect me to clean your plane?
- Not the whole aircraft madam, just the area where your little angel peed on.

Note to pax: when you come aboard an a/c with your precious angel(s), regardless the airline, you ought to know that we are not a babysitting company therefore we shan't wipe your little angel's bottom because you just can't be arsed. Also, we do recommend you take some parent skills classes; it'll make my life a hell of a lot easier.
Many thanks and kind regards,

(not a babysitter) ATS

Parapunter

25th Sep 2008, 19:58

Blimey! The cup runneth over!!

What I'm getting is that it's not so much the kids, but the rubbish parents? Bearing in mind that these people are an integral part of your daily working life, isn't this a MASSIVE drawback to your work?

Not trolling, but I wonder why something that draws such strong reactions would be worth carrying on with - if it were me, I'd be off to do something that made me happy or at the very least didn't piss me off so badly?

ZILLI

26th Sep 2008, 01:48

I call them Adam and Eves, the first parents of children, and let them run riot!

Little_Red_Hat

26th Sep 2008, 02:45

Parapunter, it's worth it for the maybe 20% of parents who actually are pleasant, well-mannered and look after their own children.

It's not a huge part of my day, but it's definitely the one that has some of the biggest impact.

Some of my fondest memories of flying are perfectly lovely families and children that I've looked after on board. It's all about how they behave and treat us, as well as having respect for the other pax around them. I suppose the issue is, some parents know how it should be done, why don't all of them. It can't be that hard surely!

topdog1

26th Sep 2008, 08:05

I have two young children and they have been on many flights, longhaul and shorthaul, not once do my children get out of their seat unless they need to use the washroom, I ensure they dont kick the seat in front and always clean up after ourselves. If I tell them to put on their seatbelt I expect them to do so, which they do of course. It makes me mad when these pax feel its ok for their child not to be strapped in because they are asleep or having a tantrum.:ugh:

It feels good when you ask them if they would allow their children to travel in a car going along at 150 miles per hour + not properly secured in their seats, with their seatbelts fastened.

cargoattendant

26th Sep 2008, 08:06

Lol StaceyF re:
People look at me all peculiar when I say that people should

(a) have to pass a test before they're allowed to procreate
(b) upon passing that test of competence they're issued with *one* breeding licence
(c) no breeding licence = no State handouts of ANY kind

You'd stop the chavs breeding just like that......

Sometimes I see the most uncapable of mum's who order several Jim Beam & Coke yet I can clearly see their children are not clothed or cared for very well. If their lucky enough to have found the child's father he's usually sitting in a different seat, knarly toes and flip flops drinking like his child's mother is sleazing onto the cabin crew.

AirborneSoon

26th Sep 2008, 09:21

All I'm saying is that there are two things I'd be happy never to see on my aircraft again.

A small child with a box of sultana's
A small child with crackers

Both of which always end up in microscopic fragments all over the seats and carpet. Both of which are hell to clean up and both of which parents think are ok to leave behind. Sure it looks like a herd of pigs had their lunch here but nevermind we'll never have to look at it again. :mad:

I wonder how many moulding biscuits exist under their couch cushions...:ooh:

Parapunter

26th Sep 2008, 09:57

Ha ha! it is what they do though, left to their own devices. Here's my little 'angel'.

http://i37.tinypic.com/23h3znc.jpg

sunnybunny

26th Sep 2008, 11:02

When our son was 18 months we took him on his first holiday but took the precaution of asking our GP what do to for flying. It was only a 2.5 hour flight but didn't want him to be a nuisance and didn't want to cause him any problems.

His reply was dose him up with medised (antihistamine/paracetamol combo) for a few days before and then give a double dose 30 mins before boarding and he should sleep the whole time.

Worked like a charm. He stayed awake long enough to watch the take off then fell asleep for the boring bit and woke up in the arrivals hall but was fairly groggy until later in the day.

nanocas

26th Sep 2008, 12:47

Ok, the above post was scary!
Whilst I agree that parenting standards have really gone down in certain parts of the world, I also see that tolerance to children (again in certain parts of the world, has also gone down. For example, when I take my kids to a southern european country to a restaurant, I feel they are welcome and many adults even approach them and play/joke around with them. On the other hand, where I live now, the opposite is true, when in a restaurant, other adults are either indifferent to or even annoyed at the fact there are kids around. (My kids know how to behave in a restaurant).

I totally agree that parents have to control their kids in the airplane and that crew are not a babysitting service. However, it is not always so easy. I have 3 kids, 2 boys and one girl, all been raised the same way, the boys behave perfectly in the airplane (always have) but my girl is a drama! "the look" does not seem to work on her, and even strapping her down with the seatbelt does not work because she always manages to wrigle out of it. Now, at home, if needed she gets a smack in her bum, but today in public it's like a "no no", and if you do it you end up getting bad looks from other people!

Drugging kids so that the trip is "pleasant" for everyone else? No thank you.
Also I agree that kids should not stand on seats because of a safety issue, but not out of concern that some people behind will be stared at. :rolleyes:

About the nappy changing on seats: I too think it is totally innapropriate (would never do it in a restaurant etc...), but, on some aircraft it is simply impossible to change a nappy on 8-9 month old baby in those tiny lavatory tables (later on they can stand). So yes, I have in the past changed my babies on the seat, embarrasing as it was, but still better than travelling for 2 hours with a nasty smell. And no, I did not get poo all over the seats/ other pax etc...:}

So,I totally agree that parents have to discipline their kids, not let them be a nuisance to others, teach them how to behave etc.... But in general, society is also becoming more and more intolerant towards children. eg "OMG, this child is staring at me! whatever shall I do? what a nuisance!!":rolleyes:

Sorry for the long message...

Little_Red_Hat

26th Sep 2008, 12:56

Parapunter, be very very glad it was flour/talc and not red lipstick!!!! :E (Yes I've had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of a wall full of red lippie, courtesy of my 2 year old cousin....)

Nanocas, most aircraft actually will have some sort of change facility in the restroom, on the aircraft that don't the crew would usually only be too happy to give you a folded blanket to lay across the closed seat in the toilet to use as a mat, that is if they dont have one of the portable table/mat contraptions (lots of aircraft with no table have a seat which closes flat to the 'platform' of the lav for this purpose...) I do agree if you're on a small plane (like 10 seats or something) then it may not be avoidable... but if you're not sure, ask, we're here to help :D

I don't have anything against kids themselves, as I said we've had many lovely children on flights, a few weeks ago we had one delightful little bloke who wanted to help us pick up all the rubbish and also hand out the arrival cards (of course we okayed it with mum & dad for him to collect rubbish, lol) He had a great time, future cabin crew in the making!!!!

strake

26th Sep 2008, 13:10

Parapunter, the majority of responses here appear to be morons jumping on the bandwagon. Going by the photo of your child, I'm sure you know as well as I do that the range of behaviour from children matches that of adults...

Even the best behaved child at two years old is going to have a resistance to being told to sit down in for a seat belt at the end of a journey and that's where good parents use distraction techniques or similar to try and achieve the aim. Airlines, how about trying to help by coming up with a seat belt that is attractive to kids..something bright and fluffy that just slides on to a normal belt or extension..only cost a few pence as a give-away and guaranteed to work?

As far as the comments on here professing various levels of disgust at children, drugging children, generally being fed-up with children and complaining about having to deal with children as part of the job (on public transport by the way) well, I think they're childish....:ok:

nanocas

26th Sep 2008, 13:17

very well said strake!!!:ok:

Parapunter

26th Sep 2008, 13:34

Well I think so too! I'm keeping things light, but to be honest, there are one or two respondents I would dread to meet on a flight!! Just a tiiiny bit too much attitude! As for drugging a child:eek:

Distraction works a treat with mine btw...

6chimes

26th Sep 2008, 14:00

Whilst the UK might not be on the top of the best 'parenting skills' list, I find that it is children from other cultures that are the worst. Without being branded as a racist or starting a war of words from posters from non christian religions, a lot of my flights are to the east of Europe where it seems culturally acceptable for children, in particular boys to do just as they please. The fathers sit elsewhere and laugh whilst their wives are left to deal with the 'brat'. There are several religions that promote this behaviour.

Very often I am glared at by parents if I ask a child who is running amok up and down the cabin to sit down because it is bumpy. I am not trying to offend any faith when I ask a child to sit down, I am sure whichever God you choose to worship would rather meet you later rather than sooner.

And it is not only Chavs from the UK, I once had the misfortune of taking the children of a Prime minister on a flight. One of them was a complete 'brat' and its mother was not at all concerned.

6

sunnybunny

26th Sep 2008, 14:19

Nanocas

I think you have misunderstood me or I didn't explain enough, the reason I asked the GP for advice was because our son did have an ear infection at the time. we were asking was it ok to take our son on a flight at that age which whilst a trivial complaint for an adult it may cause real problems for the child. He suggested sedatives to make it a less traumatic event for the child not specifically for us. The alternative was to cancel the holiday and the hassle of arguing with insurers.

Having been on a flight where a < 1 year old child screamed the whole 5 hour time despite what everyone said or did, I didn't want to get in to that situation. And yes if a child screams for 5 hours it has a problem but once the doors are closed it's a bit late .........

And p.s., he's now 16 just completed Duke of Edinburgh Silver and started college with 11 GCSE passes with a view to becoming a medical student in 2 years time. So we must have got something right.

GETA

26th Sep 2008, 14:39

Good grief...:ugh:
When our son was 18 months we took him on his first holiday but took the precaution of asking our GP what do to for flying. It was only a 2.5 hour flight but didn't want him to be a nuisance and didn't want to cause him any problems.

His reply was dose him up with medised (antihistamine/paracetamol combo) for a few days before and then give a double dose 30 mins before boarding and he should sleep the whole time.

The GP should lose his licence, pronto, and for following his advice, you clearly demonstrate that a previous poster, who ever so wisely stated that people should have a licence before reproducing, is spot on!:mad:

Also, which airlines are you all working with? Chav Central it seems. I have flown more, as a passanger though, than some of the cabin crew ranting here and rarely have I seen a situation, where kids are misbehaving badly.
Also, no disrespect, but to have a FA babysit my kid, well - no thanks.
It takes a bit more than serving drinks and repeating safety instructions to look after a child.

Let the knives fly.....:}

Edited to add:Unfortunately I think the parents fuel it by getting the kids all hyperactive about the thought of a plane ride
Why? Why would anybody get their kids hyperactive about a plane ride?? Kids don't hyperventilate over a mere thought of a taxi ride or ride in a boat, what's so different about a plane? It's a form of transport just like all the others.:rolleyes:

Little_Red_Hat

26th Sep 2008, 14:40

Airlines, how about trying to help by coming up with a seat belt that is attractive to kids..something bright and fluffy that just slides on to a normal belt or extension..only cost a few pence as a give-away and guaranteed to work?

That would be a run-of-the-mill pram toy, many of which I've seen the smart parents bring on board with them to entertain baby. Colouring book, toy car, teddy bear... whatever it is, as some parents posting on this thread have said, work a treat and they bring them along... why should the airline provide the toys, it's just passing on the responsibility, which is what we are complaining about, not the actual kids!!

Example: the other day we were 2 hours delayed on the ground. We gave out some snacks for the kids (the usual nuts/pretzels/crisps type thing) and of course there was one parent who got angry at me because their child "couldn't eat those nasty airplane nuts". Well I'm sorry, we were doing our best, if they knew their kid cant eat the plane food then what is wrong with having something as a backup?

Meanwhile the mum and dad with 2 kids about 4 rows back had brought a bag of small snacks and fruit, some juice bottles plus colouring books for their kids, who were happily colouring in and not hungry. Obviously it can be done! :}

Yes we do what we can but we can only do so much. Parents make it so much easier for themselves when they come prepared, assume the airline can do nothing for you, and pack accordingly!!

I always bring a lunch or snack just in case I don't happen to like my crew meal, I don't complain to catering that they need to load something that *I* like....

Lauderdale

26th Sep 2008, 15:20

Also, which airlines are you all working with? Chav Central it seems. I have flown more, as a passanger though, than some of the cabin crew ranting here and rarely have I seen a situation, where kids are misbehaving badly.

5000+ sectors here my friend, it is not ranting - it is what we see every day. Chav Central? Exactly, that would cover about 80% of all short haul flights...

Also, no disrespect, but to have a FA babysit my kid, well - no thanks.
It takes a bit more than serving drinks and repeating safety instructions to look after a child.

Yes - I am sure some child benefits paid out of my pay packet are alot more use to you.....

About the nappy changing on seats: I too think it is totally innapropriate (would never do it in a restaurant etc...), but, on some aircraft it is simply impossible to change a nappy on 8-9 month old baby in those tiny lavatory tables (later on they can stand). So yes, I have in the past changed my babies on the seat, embarrasing as it was, but still better than travelling for 2 hours with a nasty smell.

Dont fly - take a ferry, rent a caravan

Whilst I agree that parenting standards have really gone down in certain parts of the world, I also see that tolerance to children (again in certain parts of the world, has also gone down. For example, when I take my kids to a southern european country to a restaurant, I feel they are welcome and many adults even approach them and play/joke around with them. On the other hand, where I live now, the opposite is true, when in a restaurant, other adults are either indifferent to or even annoyed at the fact there are kids around. (My kids know how to behave in a restaurant).

That is because they are used to their locally well behaved kids - whereas in back in the UK they all know what to expect....

Look guys - in all seriousness, like it or not - we as crew do a hell of alot more flying than any one of the slf outthere and have a very good view what is going on. There is a huge problem in the UK with one half being the best peeps you would ever meet in the world , and the other half scum. If you fall in 1st category then this post is not aimed at you, if you fall in the 2nd then you are part of that disease that is gripping the UK - anti social behaviour disease.

:E

GETA

26th Sep 2008, 15:35

lauderdale exquisitely demonstrating why no sane parent would ever entertain a thought of asking FA to look after his/her child...:hmm:

Quote:
About the nappy changing on seats: I too think it is totally innapropriate (would never do it in a restaurant etc...), but, on some aircraft it is simply impossible to change a nappy on 8-9 month old baby in those tiny lavatory tables (later on they can stand). So yes, I have in the past changed my babies on the seat, embarrasing as it was, but still better than travelling for 2 hours with a nasty smell.
Dont fly - take a ferry, rent a caravan

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

cazz124

26th Sep 2008, 15:53

Haha, they are only on holiday for a few weeks a year, its the other 40 weeks when they are in school that I have to deal with apalling behaviour and attitude, thats why the first thing teachers do when we get back to school in Spetember is to book October half terms trip!
I travel in J to try to avoid them as well, my son knows his manners and would stay at home with his Gran if he didnt behave, when he was 7 he wanted a drink and raised his hand much to the surprise of the CC, he was doing the politest thing he knew to attract attention,

strake

26th Sep 2008, 16:40

Little Red Hat,

Hear what you say...but..!

When your airline advertises 'We don't cater for children' then you have a valid complaint. Until then, you work for a public transport service provider. If you work for that service then you must expect to deal with the good and the bad. That includes the young, the old, the infirm, the rude, the polite and every other flavour of humanity.
Of course, you don't have to enjoy it...I don't particularly enjoy the hassle of flying at the moment but it's my job so I just have to put up with it as best I can.

clareprop

26th Sep 2008, 17:44

Hear! Hear! Parapunter, slrake and others...

Unbelievable comments from (alleged) cabin crew on this thread. Young children are little people..y'know... HUMAN BEINGS who have different needs to the rest of us for a couple of years. Can it really be such a strain to provide that small amount of bit extra care on one flight out of ten?
It seems to me that some (alleged) cabin crew should consider a career change to the prison service.

west lakes

26th Sep 2008, 18:32

Oh for ***'* sake I wish folk would read (and understand) what is being written before posting.

Cabin Crew are more than happy to help parents and children.

READ THESE

I'll do my best to help a parent out,The point I was trying to make (long-windedly I admit, hehe) is that crew have all the time in the world for the poor parents who DO try.... An 99.99% of cabin crew will be delighted to help that mum taking one kid to the toilet whilst they look after the other.....etc etcParapunter, it's worth it for the maybe 20% of parents who actually are pleasant, well-mannered and look after their own children.Some of my fondest memories of flying are perfectly lovely families and children that I've looked after on board. It's all about how they behave and treat us, as well as having respect for the other pax around them. I suppose the issue is, some parents know how it should be done, why don't all of them. It can't be that hard surely!
I don't have anything against kids themselves, as I said we've had many lovely children on flights, a few weeks ago we had one delightful little bloke who wanted to help us pick up all the rubbish and also hand out the arrival cards (of course we okayed it with mum & dad for him to collect rubbish, lol) He had a great time, future cabin crew in the making!!!!Meanwhile the mum and dad with 2 kids about 4 rows back had brought a bag of small snacks and fruit, some juice bottles plus colouring books for their kids, who were happily colouring in and not hungry. Obviously it can be done! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif
Yes we do what we can but we can only do so much. Parents make it so much easier for themselves when they come prepared, assume the airline can do nothing for you, and pack accordingly!!Following the safety demo on the same flight, one lady asked if it was possible for her little boy to have a closer look at the oxygen mask. I was happy to let him see it and as I continued securing the cabin, I heard her explaining to him exactly where it would be and what to do if Mummy couldn't help him put it on! That is one Mother I now have the upmost respect for!Cabin crew are more than happy to help out, it is part of their job!

BUT

Children spitting at the cabin crew member!!! This was the best: a really spoilt brat (girl) try to trip one of the cabin crew members while serving the drinks!!!from the passenger who started the thread

In the past, I've had reports to me that soiled nappies were put in the seat pockets.On a LOS once, I had a mother put a loaded diaper in the overhead locker. It came apart and ran all over someone elses jacket. What bugs me is that airline is deemed responisble for things like this, grrr.One time, little Johnny kept running around in the aisle. I warned mum that Johnny ran the risk of being hurt as carts were in the aisle, tea & coffee pots about, etc etc and could she please keep him in his seat during the meal service.

Sure enough, little Johnny got out of his seat,(for the 9th or 10th time) and not only tried to trip me over (on purpose, because the little bugger laughed!!!) with a coffee pot, but then proceeded to wipe sticky lolly hands on another crew's shirt. When the rubbish cart came out, Johnny jumped out from a row of seats behind the crew member and got knocked over. (Surprise surprise) "But my 3 yr old, 4 yr old and 5 yr old want to sit together. We are just behind them so we can keep an eye on them....."
Right and what are you going to do in a decompression when they can't reach the oxygen, or if they unfasten their seatbelts just before we touch down etc.?
I mean..........parents are in Club, kids down the back, well the cc will look after them! (....)??? Changing nappies on a seat???? the fact that it is a daily occurance is frightening....

Pax having a stand up fight with you because they cant get an alcoholic drink for their 15 year old????So her mum was trying to hold her down on her lap and I insisted that she force the seatbelt around her child otherwise she could be seriously injured. But pax just don't seem to get this and all she said was 'she won't sit down, she doesn't want to'. I can't believe people will let their 5 year olds dominate them like this! And her father was sat 3 rows back on his own and just sat there laughing!One of our hosties once had a baby handed to her by a passenger and was told to change her.
I had a woman the other day, of course with the "little angel"
Little angel had an "accident".
Woman reaching for the call bell: Ding!
Me rushing: Yes madam?
- My daughter had a little accident. We need other seats.
- Sorry madam, the flight is fully booked, therefore we don't have any empty seats.
- OK, so are you going to clean this? (pointing to the damped seat)
No I am not madam, however i shall bring you lots of napkins for you to clean it.
- Me???
- Yes, you madam (smile)
- Do you call yourself an airline? You expect me to clean your plane?
- Not the whole aircraft madam, just the area where your little angel peed on.
Do any of you out there find any of that acceptable behaviour by the PARENTS?
The crew are in most cases not having a go at the children, perhaps the thread title should have been Naughty Kids = bad parenting = exhausted cabin crew, with the emphasis on the bad parenting.

Yes I've endured 2 hours of being kicked in the back whilst mum & dad sit back & drink.

We approached it slightly differently by deliberately not taking our son on an aircraft until he was old enough to understand what was going on and had enough social skills not to annoy other people. I know some parents have no choice but to fly with young children - and from what I have read on here (in other similar threads as well) most of them are "switched on" enough to not let their children cause annoyance. To those parents - well done.

To those parents that think: -
1/ It is not their responsibility to look after their children
2/ That they can act in some of the ways described

I'm speechless.

Young children are little people..y'know... HUMAN BEINGS who have different needs to the rest of us for a couple of years. Can it really be such a strain to provide that small amount of bit extra care on one flight out of ten?

Absolutely correct 10/10 for that paragraph
But whose responsibility is it to look after their own children, entertain them or provide something to stop them getting bored, clean up after them in some cases, hygienically dispose of their waste products to the toilet/rest room, keep them from getting injured or injuring others - the parents or the cabin crew.?

strake

26th Sep 2008, 19:09

West lakes...you do have some valid points there..

To those parents that think: -
1/ It is not their responsibility to look after their children
2/ That they can act in some of the ways described

I'm speechless.

I came back from Cologne yesterday (thankfully before German SAS "stormed" aircraft) and there was a Mum on her own with a 2 and 4 yr old.

Now, she had serious sympathy from everyone until she started to ignore the kids and have an in depth telephone conversation with hubby/lover/partner. What was surprising was how other people in the lounge started looking after the kids almost automatically. Care instinct I suppose.
Sometimes yes, the parents need a good talking to but a child is a child.
It surprising how quickly a "brat" can turn into a quiet little person who just wants to rest their head on your shoulder after a bit of TLC...
Maybe, some of the angry crew on this thread could try it sometime...they may be surprised at how good they feel.

west lakes

26th Sep 2008, 19:20

Maybe, some of the angry crew on this thread could try it sometime...they may be surprised at how good they feel.

Possibly true.

Unfortunately, except for disabled pax, others have an equal call on their time. If I understand the industry correctly those airlines that carry unaccompanied minors do designate cc staff to look after them. On most flights there are probably insufficient staff to look after accompanied children.

nanocas

26th Sep 2008, 19:30

West Lakes,
I think the extreme examples of bad behaviour you quoted are probably the exception rather than the rule.

you said:
"I don't have anything against kids themselves, as I said we've had many lovely children on flights,.."

Well, it is actually normal that kids are not always "lovely" and "cute" and quiet all the time, they are kids! still growing and still having to learn how to deal with the world around them, fatigue, new environment etc...

As far as the parents are concerned, just because a child is screaming or throwing a tantrum, does not mean it is due to poor parenting! Like I said before, I have 3 kids all raised the same way, I always bring onto the plane toys, pens, paper etc.. to keep them enternained, yet my youngest daughter (3 yrs old) still refuses to sit down buckle up and she does throw a tantrum particularly at the end of the flight if she is tired. If people here get annoyed about it, and expect that parents will magically make them lovely again, then I am sorry but it is those people complaining who show a lack of compassion, tolerance and understanding towards children.

But really, what shocked me the most about your post was:

"We approached it slightly differently by deliberately not taking our son on an aircraft until he was old enough to understand what was going on and had enough social skills not to annoy other people."

:eek:What????? Do you mean that people should not fly with their babie's/ small kids because they "don't have enough skills" yet????:eek::confused:

" I know some parents have no choice but to fly with young children - and from what I have read on here (in other similar threads as well) most of them are "switched on" enough to not let their children cause annoyance. To those parents - well done."

Well, I do have a choice, and I do choose to fly with my kids, and so, according to you, I must be "switched off" because, like I said before, my daughter does cause what you call "annoyance", but what I would call "being a tired child and not knowing how else to express it".

It all depends on what some here call annoyance, some people get annoyed at the kid in the front seat looking at them, and some (like me) don't. etc....
And the extreme cases quoted here such as kids spitting, poo in the overhead lockers, kids tripping the crew... I am sure that kind of extreme behaviour is more the exception rather than the rule..;)

jetset lady

26th Sep 2008, 19:37

Thank you West Lakes. You got there before me and saved me having to do all those quotes!

Strake,

We'd love to be able to provide a shoulder for a little one to rest their head on but we also have anything from 100 - 400 other people clamouring for our attention. We don't have the time or resources to do this. As previous crew have said, we are happy to look after a child while mum or dad goes to the loo and help out wherever possible. We understand that children will not always want to sit still for 2 hours and may decide that now would be a good time to give their lungs a work out. That's kids for you and I will always defend a family in this situation if other people are complaining. None of us are talking about this sort of situation. We are talking about the parents that don't give a damn about the safety of the children or others around them.

So,I totally agree that parents have to discipline their kids, not let them be a nuisance to others, teach them how to behave etc.... But in general, society is also becoming more and more intolerant towards children. eg "OMG, this child is staring at me! whatever shall I do? what a nuisance!!"

nanocas,

Having a child staring at you over the back of the seat, talking to you constantly and generally not leaving you alone, may not be a nuisance to you, but it is to many others. Have they not got the right to a bit of peace and quiet?

And just out of interest, what do you do to keep your little girl safe if she won't stay strapped in?

You're living in a dream world. These cases are not the exception to the rule. Unfortunately it's the other way round. But hey ho. Like everything else in this sorry state of a world, IT'S YOUR RIGHT to fly and sod everyone else!

Jsl

strake

26th Sep 2008, 20:03

We'd love to be able to provide a shoulder for a little one to rest their head on but we also have anything from 100 - 400 other people clamouring for our attention. We don't have the time or resources to do this.

Sorry, Jetset, but I can't believe you really are crew...if you are, then you've forgotten your training.

Every time we fly with our kids, the crew are more than happy to to see them and treat our children as individuals.

jetset lady

26th Sep 2008, 20:06

Re read my post Strake!

Jsl

west lakes

26th Sep 2008, 20:23

What????? Do you mean that people should not fly with their babie's/ small kids because they "don't have enough skills" yet????http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

No I was giving a narrative of the choice my wife and myself made, it was our choice as we felt it was the best at the time and prevented any problems occurring.
Others are welcome to make their own choices.

All the quotes I put in that previous post were from earlier on in the thread and were put there as examples of differing attitudes.
They were not my words, but those of cabin crew & other passengers (which is why they were quotes)
If you read the thread from the beginning you will be able to find them.

This is choice time, I'm not going to comment upon what I thought - you tell me what you think

Monday this week, I visited the dentists. The surgery is in two terraced houses that have been internally joined, they were built in the 1800's and have steep stair ways & extensions at the back.
Most of the treatment rooms are upstairs as is a small waiting room, there is one downstairs used for disabled patients and another waiting area.
It was mid afternoon and appointments were running a bit late owing to an earlier emergency, as a result the upstairs room was full.

A family of 5 arrived, mother, father, a girl of about 6or7 and twin girls of about 3.
All came upstairs, the children first and about a minute before the parents, as they waited they began playing at the top of the stairs, with the older sister trying to keep the young ones in some sort of order.
Parents arrive, mother sits down & calls the children away from the stairs - no result, older sister tries to get the younger ones to go to their mother & gets shouted at for causing trouble.
Father decides to go downstairs to wait & takes the twins with him, 30 secs later they both appear at the top of the stairs, then go back down. (at this pint every member of staff clearly warned the children about the dangers of running up & down the stairs - no result. No interest from the mother they continue going up & down the stairs & playing at the top.
A few patients had then been seen so there was space upstairs so the father appears, sits down next to his wife and all the children settle down. The fathers phone then rings, and he appears to read a text message, mother looks on as he rads it & starts to compose a reply. The children who are boisterous begin to pus & shove, argue over who sit where - the sort of thing that you would expect youngsters to do when excited, but with nothing to do.
Parents totally ignore them.

Were the children being naughty?

Were the parents paying proper attention to them?

Were the parents concerned for their safety?

Should other adults (patients) have cared for the children (bear in mind this is the paranoid PC UK)?

Should other adults (staff) who were all busy cared for the children (and by doing so further delayed appointments for other patients)?

You tell me

west lakes

26th Sep 2008, 20:44

nanocas

The situation you describe in your post with your girl falls into the first catagory where the CC will help as you are trying to do your best (I am sure)

If you were the type parent who EXPECTED the crew to deal with it while you did nothing you would fall into the second.

And there lies the subtle difference

And just out of interest, what do you do to keep your little girl safe if she won't stay strapped in?

That interests me as well.

Another true story

Small turboprop operating into an airport with a shortish runway such that on landing the brakes had to be applied hard on.
Piece of equipment at the rear of the aircraft not secured properly.

Upon braking that piece of equipment travelled from the rear to the front down the aisle and smashed into the flight deck door damaging it, fortunately it did not injure any passengers.

If children are unsecured does anyone want to see a child do that?
Does anyone want that child to be injured or worse lose it's life?
Does anyone want another passenger (possibly another family member) injured?

Or should the aircraft keep circling the destination until the child can be persuaded to have their seatbelt on (bearing in mind that, at least in the UK) have to wear them in a car.

The leaning over the seat back & chattering to other pax I think is minor - if an adult can't switch off to that well......
Crying cos they are tired - not surprising all children up to a certain age do

nanocas

26th Sep 2008, 21:35

Hi west lakes,

No of course I would never think it is the job of the crew, or anyone else, to take care of my girl. Also, I never said that children should just be allowed to fly/land unstrapped, on the contrary, it is so dangerous!

In my case, my 2/3 yr old girl often "refuses" to have her seat belt attached (like I said especially if she is tired..), so it goes something like this: I attach her, she tries to unbuckle, She does not manage, she starts crying, I try explaining to her, she cries even more, she wrigles herself down and manages to escape the belt, I sit her down again and buckle her, she cries again, I try being nice, not nice etc... but it will go on like this for 4/5 times until she eventually gets tired or I finally put her in an extension belt on my lap (sometimes it works!)

To jet set lady, I am not saying it's ok to let kids stare at the pax sitting behind, it's just that I have had kids do that to me and was not annoyed at all (be happy, there are so many bigger annoyances in life than being stared at by a child)! at the end of the day, they will also get bored of that "game" . And I really do not think that public transport is a place to seek "peace and quiet", it would be nice, but rarely the case.:)

At the end of the day, as long as parents take care that the children are safe and not being rude/unpolite towards others, others have to accept that within these parameters, children can still act like children.

"You're living in a dream world. These cases are not the exception to the rule. Unfortunately it's the other way round. But hey ho. Like everything else in this sorry state of a world, IT'S YOUR RIGHT to fly and sod everyone else!"
Boy! I never noticed that the majority of kids today, spit at people, trip them etc... and there is poo everywhere.. etc... Sure, manners, respect etc... are going downhill (the reason I put my 12 year old in the strictest catholic school I could find!) but I never noticed the world was THAT bad! Also, why do you think that me having the right to fly is part of making the world into a sorry state??:eek::confused:

west lakes

26th Sep 2008, 21:58

nanocas

And that actually is the point that the cc (and some pax) are trying to make.

You care, you want your children safe, you, I assume, if you need assistance will ask for it and probably get it. But you are prepared to accept responsibility for your own children

Sadly there are a lot of folk out here that take the "it's someone else's problem" approach to life - those are the ones being criticized here.

Some of the "tantrums" we had with our son when he was that age were stuff of legend, which is in part why we decided not to inflict him on others. He is now 18 and has turned into a rather polite intelligent adult I hope yours do the same.

On another note folks should remember that this is an anonymous forum, that is used by airline staff to let off a bit of steam (and anyone in any industry dealing with "customers" that doesn't I would worry about) I have no doubt that in their daytime guise their attitude to the customer is exemplary.

I am not involved with this industry (apart from knowing some of the folk on these forums) but have been dealing with the public in my occupation for 35 years and have come across some "interesting" situations in that time.
Have I dealt with them to the customers satisfaction - mostly, within the constraints set by my employer and the law
Do I hate customers - no. (well at least my managers think I don't)
Do I have a venting session with colleagues in the office - yes.
Do I see tragedies involving children when they come into contact with my industry - yes (there was a 14yr old killed 2 weeks ago in the UK despite all the required safety precautions being in place).
Have I had to deal with incidents like these - yes and it saddens me.

Little_Red_Hat

27th Sep 2008, 02:36

Westlakes, hear hear. My thoughts exactly.

To all those parents getting upset- we are NOT complaining about those of you who TRY to control your kids. Yes, kids throw tantrums, yes, they take off their seatbelts and don't want to put them back on. Yes, they kick, scream and cry.

I'm not some monster who doesn't care. Many a time I've come off a flight with bruises because I've tried to help mum/dad out and Little Angel has kicked/hit/tried to bite me while we were putting the seatbelt on him/her. If I've seen Little Angel fussing about a seatbelt earlier in the flight I'm there at the top of descent offering mum/dad an infant belt for landing. Older kids I give them a game, like "When the plane stops I'll come back and I want you to tell me how many planes with red on you saw at the airport" (Sounds silly but you'd be surprised how often it works!!!)

We are not complaining about parents (sometimess fruitless) efforts to control their kids. We're complaining about parents who DO NOT TRY. Which as said earlier, if you're doing as you describe on this thread then you are most certainly trying.

The airline can only do so much, sure if the kids are unnaccompanied minors then we give them our individual attention. Colouring packs, playing cards, the inflight entertainment.

It's not 'part of my job description' specifically but on occasionas I have:

* Spent 30mins walking a screaming baby up and down the cabin on a night flight so mum could have a break (and everyone else :E)

* Sat with a little boy colouring in for abot an hour on a quiet flight, we drew pictures of the plane and later he gave me the drawing, I still have it

* Sat with older children and explained how to use the seat-back tv screen

* Taken a young girl (14 years) into the terminal to make sure her mum was there to meet her, as she had not flown alone before, even though she had NOT been sent as a U/M and therefore not "officially" my responsibility...

* Helped a 2yr old 'go potty' because mum was flying alone with a brand new baby (yes wasnt that pleasant but i did it)

The outstanding theme to all of these occasions??? Every time, the said parent had been doing their best to do most things themselves, and asked me pleasantly and politely "if it isnt too much trouble, and you have time...."

THAT is the difference. That is the point we have been trying to make.

We do NOT hate kids.
We do NOT hate parents.
We KNOW kids have tantrums/scream/cry/stare at people/throw things/poo
What we DO hate is the non-caring behaviours explained throughout this thread.

Hope this clears things up a bit, and yes this is a place for us to vent, at work, faced with the nappy in seat pocket issue (dealt with it many times) I assume mum and dad havent flown before and just give them a little explanation of what they can do with a diaper (in the toilet there's a change table, here it is, over here are the air sick bags, when you're finished with the nappy pop it in here, wrap it up and put it in the bin just here *smile*)

9/10 times parents are happy someone has actually shown them where it goes, sometimes they think it shouldn't go in the bin because it might smell. I try to show them the bathroom which with be furthest from other pax and the galleys :}

nanocas

27th Sep 2008, 04:54

Little red hat and west lakes, thanks for putting things in perspective, very sensible posts finally! :)Unlike some who suggest that because you have a young child you should "take a ferry, rent a caravan etc.."

There were just some posters here who get things totally out of proportion and sound like they just have a dislike and intolerance to kids. Those are clearly in the wrong job. And yes, even though I do take care of my kids I might still ask the crew "can you please tell my child to sit down and strap up?" this is not because I haven't tried myself , but because (I think most parents experience this) the little darlings will react differently to a stranger telling them off rather than mom. just the way it is sometimes...
cheers

Little_Red_Hat

27th Sep 2008, 06:42

Glad we all understand each other... it's hard to get our point across sometimes without people thinking that we 'must hate children'....

And for the parents, it doesn't hurt to ask us to help but please don't be offended if we can't, or do not have the resources that you need. Help yourselves out by coming as prepared as you can be, if on occasion something comes up that you're unprepared for, then please ask, we'll do our best and can be quite 'inventive'... e.g.... little boy throws up, soils clothes on long flight... mum has forgotten spare clothes... we found spare 1st class pyjama top for the kid to wear...

So, hopefully this thread has taught each side a little about the other... parents ask nicely, crew don't assume all kids are brats, if we each respect the other we can make the flight easier for EVRYONE, not just the kids/parents/crew but the other pax as well!

jetset lady

27th Sep 2008, 10:49

nanocas,

Firstly, I apologise. My last paragraph to you was a bit heated and probably, unfair, but I get so frustrated when people assume I'm a child hater that thinks children shouldn't be on board. For example, strake took my post completely out of context. He quoted;

We'd love to be able to provide a shoulder for a little one to rest their head on but we also have anything from 100 - 400 other people clamouring for our attention. We don't have the time or resources to do this.

And then went on to claim I'm probably not crew and if I am, I've obviously forgotten my training, whilst not bothering to quote the next bit, which was;

As previous crew have said, we are happy to look after a child while mum or dad goes to the loo and help out wherever possible. We understand that children will not always want to sit still for 2 hours and may decide that now would be a good time to give their lungs a work out. That's kids for you and I will always defend a family in this situation if other people are complaining. None of us are talking about this sort of situation. We are talking about the parents that don't give a damn about the safety of the children or others around them.

I do my best for parents travelling with children. Like LRH, I show parents travelling for the first time with children where to find the baby changing facilities, offer to heat up milk, get permission for the children to see the flight deck after landing etc. etc. I will also back you to the hilt when it comes to getting your little girl strapped in and if people complain that she's crying, I'll tell them, and have done many times in the past, that the childs safety is more important, than their discomfort for a short while.

But at the same time, I think you'd be surprised how many parents have absolutely no interest in what their children are doing onboard an aircraft. There are so many ways a little one can get hurt and I've seen it happen.

For the record, when it comes to children standing on the seats, I don't allow it for the very same reason as you, safety. But regardless of that, I still wouldn't allow it as some people really don't like it and I have to try and keep everyone happy, not just your child. Time and time again, I see children going down the aisle chatting to other passengers. Some are happy to talk, others just want to read a book or work. You say they shouldn't expect peace and quiet on public transport but we're not talking a train or bus here. They can't just get up and move away. They're stuck where they are and children are amazingly persistent. If you have a right to fly with your children, why shouldn't they have a right to read a book in peace?

Jsl

Virginia

27th Sep 2008, 10:55

I pity the Gulf Air 'Sky Nannies.' :uhoh:

west lakes

27th Sep 2008, 11:43

The leaning over the seat back & chattering to other pax I think is minor - if an adult can't switch off to that well......

Just an explanation of that, I was referring to the annoyance to other passengers.
As was pointed out to me, there is of course a safety issue if the a/c hits turbulence with an unrestrained child stood on a seat.

HUMAN BEINGS who have different needs to the rest of us for a couple of years.
Absolutely, they also do not have the same view of danger to adults which is why, it is endemic on their parents to ensure their safety by following the instructions given by those trained to recognise the risks of their behaviour.
(That's not to say that a lot of adults have a good view of what is dangerous either)

Lets face it if the aircraft hits sudden turbulance do you think an unrestrained 2 or 3 year old would react quickly enough to brace itself?
If that child is injured, despite warnings to the parents by cc, who do you think is responsible, the cabin crew or the parents?
In this, stupid?, world of taking legal action who would get taken to court if another passenger was injured?

Seat Belts
As I understand it there are two modifications that can be fitted: -
An extension so the belt will fit a single larger passenger
Infant belts that are a separate belt that attaches to the main seat belt.

I would suggest that if anyone is using the former type to go around two people (adult & child) that in the event of sudden severe braking there is a high risk of injury to the child being crushed between the adult & the belt. (this is why in the UK at least it has always been illegal to use a car seatbelt in this manner).
With the second type if the child is older, larger or heavier than the design limits of the belt, it may not restrain them in an emergency.
That is the risk that cc are advising parents of and by ignoring their advice parents accept responsibility for any result

Face it though aircraft accidents are few and far between so safety is dumbed down in the eyes of many. Car accidents are common so parents usually follow the safety laws there.

Part of the issue in this and other threads is the difference in culture (that leads to the "we pay your wages" cry).

The cabin crew (and flight deck) are trained to view their prime (legal) responsibility as ensuring passenger safety on the aircraft and taking charge in an emergency. This aspect is NOT pushed by the airlines as that doesn't sell seats. (though oddly car makers use advanced safety features to sell cars)
The passengers view, in part because of the airline advertising, the prime duty of the cabin crew as passenger service & comfort.

A lot of the comments on these forums are owing to this culture difference.
Oddly I thing that the airline staff are aware of this difference, but it seems that a lot of passengers haven't actually worked it out.

Little_Red_Hat

27th Sep 2008, 12:28

Just a link which may be useful to the mums and dads out there.... a kiddy selt belt approved for parents to carry on by CAA/FAA/CASA etc

http://www.kidsflysafe.com (http://www.kidsflysafe.com/)

jetset lady

27th Sep 2008, 13:00

LRH,

This has not yet been approved for use by the CAA, only by the FAA. They are conducting trials at the moment but unfortunately, until such time as we get the go ahead, we are not allowed to permit their use on our aircraft in the UK. Hopefully, this will not take long and these belts will soon be permitted across the whole industry as I think they're a great step forward for the safety of children.

As westie has raised the subject of infant seat belts, I thought it may be a good time to explain something else concerning their use. Those of you that regularly fly on UK carriers will probably know that the upper age limit for their use is 2 yrs old. I'm often asked why, as 2 yr olds come in vastly different sizes. The way it was explained to me was that studies had been done showing that a toddlers spine starts to stiffen at that age and therefore, can not take the pressures that a younger childs spine can take. They are less likely to suffer the injuries that can happen when on the lap of an adult if sudden braking occurs. I'm not sure if I've explained that very well but that is basically the reason we have to insist on children over 2 being sat in their own seats for landing and take off.

Jsl

Little_Red_Hat

27th Sep 2008, 14:36

Sorry Jetset Lady, my mistake... will be great when they do get approved...

though what are the chances some pax sat behind will complain about the restraint showing on the seat in front? :E

I know also there's a little bit of controversy over the infant seatbelts thing, however from what I understand the parent with infant brace position, done properly, is meant to minimise risk of injury to the child from the adult... (if you look at the pictures, the adult is kind of to the side of the child.. if that makes sense)

Anyway, we're not debating that I know.... Thought some of the parents out there might find the harness useful if travelling to countries which approve them.

jetset lady

27th Sep 2008, 15:59

Hi LRH,

I hope it gets approved soon too. It's much better than the current arrangement. We have leather seats on board and I always worry that the smaller children are going to slip underneath the belt. And anyone that complains about these restraints on the seat in front of them, will be asked to take their complaint to the very highest level...of the airbridge!

Jsl

fc101

27th Sep 2008, 16:26

Just to give a little balance here:

We (2 adults, 2 children (2yrs, 3yrs)) just flew from Finland to UK and back. Stocked up with toys, colouring books, pencils and snacks for the 3 hour flights. Both kids were perfectly behaved on the flight, though 2yo got a bit fidgetty towards to end.

Not once did we need to reprimand our kids, the 3yo happily coloured in books for the the whole flight there and back. We used the toilets when we needed to change a nappy (fortunately a precautionary measure in this instance). Not once did we need to leave our seats (other than the toilet visit). Not once did I even consider walking the kids up and down the aisle etc etc.

There were at least two other familes on the flight I took earlier this week: one made the same preparations as us, the other didn't...how one of the cc didn't bundle that kid into the waste cart I don't know!

Flying with kids is simple: preparation - make sure you have enough entertainment for the flight: books, sweets etc. Lay off the fizzy, sugary drinks and perhaps a little parenting between birth and present day helps too. OK, so sometimes s**t happens - a cc colleague of mine solved this with buying a round of drinks for the nearby pax, however tantrums rarely last long anyway...

I don't ask for baby sitting services, I don't ask for toys and other entertainment to be provided (though a small book and toy car were more than appreciate by the 2yo). I don't ask anything special from the CC and I promise that I will ensure that my kids will remain under my responsibility for the entier duration of the flight. Simple eh?

fc101
E145 driver

* Blue1 cabin crew :ok: - a letter thanking for excellent service on way to your employers as I speak.

* Personally the worst behaved kids I've ever come across on flights tend to be wearing suits, typing into laptops and sitting in the first few rows of a cabin... :)

Matt101

28th Sep 2008, 18:31

hmm most kids are great a few little brats but that can be said of most sections of society. Indeed some of my favourite passsengers have been children as they are often the only people smiling at the end of a 14 hour flight. Now the business cabin that's where I've witnessed some of the worst tantrums! (No real offence intended J class pax!)

To GEST,

I find your incinuation that because I am an FA I am uncapable of looking after a child insulting in the extreme. One assumes you arrogance is likely to have rubbed off on your children which is rather a shame and not at all their fault. A good demonstration of the feelings expressed by the SLF who started this thread.

FWIW I'm a uni graduate about to make the move to the other side of the flight deck door and have two small nephews who I look after regularly.

Just as I am sure you would prefer me not to make assumptions about you based on your employment may I ask you to afford myself and my colleagues the same courtesy.

Thanks

clareprop

29th Sep 2008, 08:27

<I find your incinuation that because I am an FA I am uncapable of looking after a child insulting in the extreme.>
<FWIW I'm a uni graduate about to make the move to the other side of the flight deck door>

:eek:

GETA

29th Sep 2008, 09:17

Parapunter

29th Sep 2008, 10:59

Well, a few spelling mistooks aside, Matts post is cogent.

For me, it's clear most FA's frustrations lie with bad parents, but based on this thread, there is a section with a terrible attitude, so I guess that reflects both sides of this divide.

The strange thing is, screaming kids used to drive me mad, I really hated being on a bus a plane, anywhere where there would be a stroppy child yet since I became a parent, I find the reverse is true - honest! I find myself drawn to watch the argument & have even found myself smiling at it - been there done it thing I suppose.

I find it very depressing to see toddlers and little kids given sweets/burgers/toys/anything to placate them when the opposite is the ultimate effect, parents need to do parenting & that includes the tough decisions - too often people give in for a quiet life or abdicate the responsibility, but it's a mistake to do so.

Then again a few professionals who deal in looking after large groups of people on airplanes could do better too I think, judging by a response or two here, but let me also say bravo to the enlightened souls who answered my querys, I hope I travel with you soon:ok:

Little_Red_Hat

29th Sep 2008, 11:19

Parapunter, if you're half as prepared as we describe on this thread, you'll be right :E

And of course if there's anything else that you can think of that you'd like to know about travelling with kids (or things that you've asked for and been refused, and not sure why) just ask!

Little_Red_Hat

29th Sep 2008, 11:22

May I also add.... a few days ago we flew with a delightful little girl who was going as an unnaccompanied minor- whoever her parents are, I'd like to say I love you, because you sent her well packed and prepared for a long(ish)flight.

She had her own water bottle, she had a jacket in case she got cold, she had a nintendo DS to keep her amused, she had some fruit to snack on, she had a book with your phone numbers in it, she had a calling card, and she had her journal/diary which kept her writing for most of the flight.

We didn't need to get her a thing aside from her lunch. She also had the most beautiful manners I've seen in a child for a long long time!!! AND she left her seat tidy when she left! Mum & Dad obviously took pride in teaching her some excellent manners... wish all the passengers were like her! :}

Matt101

29th Sep 2008, 16:56

fair enough GETA if you're intent on being rude I have to say I'm not particularly bothered. My post is full of typos for which I am sincerely sorry but I did type it on an iPhone which has a nasty habbit of guessing what button I'm pressing.

My qualification us from UCL and is in a science subject as opposed to English also. I wasn't claiming they were qualifications suited to me looking after children.

But that is irrelevant to the thread it was just to highlight that perhaps your judgement on cabin crew is somewhat lacking in any thought and rather a large and unfair generlisation.

I really just wanted to highlight that you owe an apology to all of the cabin crew out there who on a daily basis perform a demanding roll, then at the end of the day, go home and raise a family.

Simply saying thy FA's are incapable of supervising your child because they are mere cabin crew is intolerable and wrong.

flapsforty

29th Sep 2008, 19:01

Matt101, I sincerely hope that English is not your first language (it's not my mother tongue which is apparent I'm sure)!
Because otherwise, apart from wondering about the educational standards of your university, one is quite worried about your future passengers once that " move to the other side of the flight deck door " is completed......
:uhoh:

GETA, your post is not only condescending, bang out of order and an unwarranted personal attack, it also shows considerable ignorance of the skills a pilot needs to operate safely.

Your profile does not tell us what your field of expertise is, but it's patently clear that you know little or nothing about the operation of a civil airliner.

More's the pity that you feel the need to spout off on this forum (meant for cabin crew) about matters so obviously beyond your knowledge and understanding.

PS : Shock .. Horror.... I manage fine to run the cabin of a 747/777/A320 without a PhD in English.

Octopussy2

30th Sep 2008, 11:02

I've been reading this thread with interest - absolutely see where the crew are coming from when they're dealing with parents who just don't care. Also glad that it's been recognised that there are times when, try as you might, the tantrum is going to happen and there's nothing you can do.

I was thinking of this thread yesterday, on a packed train from Newcastle to London with a 4 year old and an 8 month old (and my husband, thank goodness). Train was completely full, even in first - really felt for the poor bloke sitting by us trying to do some work as we did everything we could to keep both the children happy and quiet for the 3 hour journey! (he was charming and good-humoured, even when the orange juice spilt by my daughter was heading for his laptop...) We worked our socks off to keep them happy/distracted etc - with the result that, when we got off, two people complimented my husband on their behaviour. Meanwhile, Mummy and Daddy were completely knackered and had to open a bottle of wine at home to recover!

I would really hope that the majority of parents are still like us, but it seems that some cabin crews' experiences are very different - tell me, are we actually in the minority now?? I'd find that very depressing.

derab

30th Sep 2008, 11:27

as a freight dog, its interesting to read some of the CC's plights with SLF. There are a few things that have always puzzled me when I take my kids on a flight (I travel OZ - UK and OZ - NZ regularly, sometimes with the kids)
1. why won't someone fit a belt onto that table in the toilets, on a narrowbody you might as well support the kid by putting them, head first down the loo. the table is slippery and the roof just comes in at you, that setup is a recipe for disaster when you are trying to change the bloomin thing.
2. Car seats, why, oh why to the check in staff insist that you cannot take a car seat onto the plane?:confused: Once I managed to talk them into letting me take it onboard on a trip to NZ.. Carseats are designed to be locked into place by a lap sash belt (they are in NZ and OZ anyway) .. so I lock it into position.. and hey presto I have a 5 point harness to lock my little angel into position (she was 2 YO at the time).. she acted like she was in the car.. she was asleep before we went through 10,000 feet and slept pretty close to the 3 hours of the trip. Heaven.. I tell you the look of amazement that was on the pursers face (chief steward??) when he realised how the setup worked proved that he had never seen that arrangement used before. and I had a convert..:D
as you can tell, I am a believer in "strapping em in" if you dont want movement. :cool: but I guess thats my freight dog heritage coming out.. :}
BTW.. I loved the posting about the "change this kid" pure mastercard moment.. top marks.

Pilotinmydreams

30th Sep 2008, 11:32

I read this thread with interest as I am taking the first flight with my two and a half year old in 3 weeks. Only a fairly short hop LHR > BCN but it's causing me a little anxiety as his Mum adn I will have to try and keep him entertained for a couple of hours without the luxury of the living room to run around in. Our thoughts are on taking a portable DVD player a couple of toy cars and some pencils to draw with. Anybody got any tips on things they've seen other parents use on aircraft to keep the kids happy. I'm only sad that I won't be able to take him up the the flight deck like my father used to

west lakes

30th Sep 2008, 11:33

Related to this, I've just been listening to a discussion on the radio; where, following a survey by an insurance company, it is estimated that 20% of parents in the UK don't even comply with the legislation regarding child restraints in cars.
What's even worse is that is that, apparently, 10% of this number deliberately ignore the legislation.

Matt101

30th Sep 2008, 14:23

Hey derab out of curiosity which airline do you fly with I know we allow car seats on ours. You can even use them for take off and landing so long as they have a 5 point harness an can be sites safely with the belt.

Must be airline specific as opposed to any regs.

Little_Red_Hat

30th Sep 2008, 15:19

if you're flying an aussie airline, the rules about car seats are set by CASA. only seats certified by certain bodies are acceptable, and they must have the appropriate decals. So you could have a brand new seat on which the approval decal has been removed, and it wont be allowed to fly.

I think the CARES restraint i linked to earlier was partly designed to combat this problem and also to save mum and or dad from lugging a car seat everywhere.

bondim

30th Sep 2008, 15:43

pilotinmydreams,

I am sure most airlines pilots will be happy to let your child look in the flight deck on the ground before/after takeoff, if they are not busy just check with cc.

talking about parents not caring...
I had this a few years back

nanny sitting in restricted seat with baby on lap for boarding, posh, condescending mother behind her.I tell them that baby cannot be in restricted seat for t/o/landing, so if mother could please have baby for this short time or swap seats...
mother(spoilt b***ch): but I don't want to swap seats
me: fine,madam, then you just need to hold your child for t/o/landing
mother(screws up face):you don't understand, it's the nanny's job!

guess what, nanny had to be moved, mother would NOT hold her own child for 15mins!

derab

30th Sep 2008, 20:26

Thanks Matt and LRH

when I travel between OZ n NZ I take the car seat anyway as it
a. gives my angel that "at home" feeling so she's comfortable
b. I know the history of it and how it works

Its a safe n sound maxi rider, AU and NZ standards
from memory it was NZ from MEL to CHC, but not CHC to MEL that I was able to take it into the cabin.
JQ and QF (when they operated the route) were a no-no, I will be test driving DJ in November.
I could have really used it last time I went BA SYD-LHR as it was our first flight after No2's birth and No1 was having a bad day :( .. the CC were fantastic, but I really could have done with being able to immobilise her while we were trying to settle bubs..
while I know its not fully legal in the UK, the staff at alamo car rental LHR compared it to their rental seat, and lets say.. i was a bit naughty and kept using our one.. := much better quality..

Little_Red_Hat

2nd Oct 2008, 02:14

Derab... you could try emailing or calling Virgin Blue to check on their car seat policy... if you're travelling with kids uder 2 I think you have to book through the call centre anyway...

Bondim, OMG!!! What a rude mother, sadly I've heard endless stories of this, particularly in the middle east airlines, mum and dad in J class while poor nanny is in economy with screaming kids...

cirrus17

2nd Oct 2008, 06:51

My airline bends over backwards to make sure that children are well catered for on our flights.... all children, regardless of whether they're flying alone or not, receive backpacks, cuddly toy, colouring book and pens, activity book and puppet on the flight.... again, regardless of whether it's a quick hour in the air or 16 hours.
We even have polaroid cameras on board specifically to take photos of children on baord so that they can have a momento of their flight- all free, all given willingly.
The majority of the children are relatively well behaved, and can be sweet to fly with, and like LHR and some of the other posters on this thread, when we get time, we do our best to make life easier for the parents, especially on the aforementioned 16 hours!- we take the babies to the galley for a while, look at clouds out the window with the toddlers, read to them, draw with them, try and give the parents- and surrounding passengers- a break for an hour or so.
However, because we provide so much for children- we even have free nappies, baby bottles, baby milk, baby powder, bibs, spoons, the works, all available, parents just expect it. The above is there for parents when they run out, have forgotten something or genuinely need it. It is not there for greedy people to demand a bag full of free stuff because they cannot be bothered to use their own nappies, didn't think to bring any milk for their baby for a 10 hour flight.
The only thing we want in return is that when we ask the parents to do something, ie, strap the child in for landing etc, it is done.
I have had so many parents refuse to strap their child in because "he doesn't want to". This is not a baby who could be taken on the parents lap, but an 8 or 9 yr old who is running up and down the aisles as we land.
Quite frequently, I have mothers who tell me they cannot tell their toddling son what to do because he is a boy, and she cannot tell boys what to do (only has authority over the girls).
If you are being emotionally bullied/blackmailed/guilt-tripped by your own 3yr old, then what will that child be like at 18, when he has had a life of everything being handed to him on a plate?!

"The look" is only useful when it has been combined with good manners, and good parenting since birth. Most parents on our flights have well behaved children, and if they're acting up, a quick biscuit and juice with the crew at the back can usually solve the problem. To those parents however who take no interest in their children and are bringing them up to be as lazy, rude and spoilt as themselves...... :ugh:

derab

2nd Oct 2008, 11:22

Thanks LRH,

no go with pacific blue too.. I will just have to make sure she is in the window seat :cool:
she is 4 now and i reckon she could take one of my crash tackles if it came to the crunch.
when she was 2 and terrorising the cabin it was hard to "dissuade her from wandering" in front of other PAX :=, but at 4 she can reason a little better and is open to a more rational argument.

BTW, I am believer in the "moderate use of non verbal persuasion" ;) so, hopefully "the look" will suffice for the 3 1/2 hours of the trip.
No2 isn't quite walking yet so there isn't the worry of him going for a wander and bugging everybody on the plane, I will leave that till my next trip to the UK.. in June next year will all in tow.. I am thinking I will REALLY have to research that car seat rule.
The problem with that restraint system you like (the CARES system) is that it is air travel specific, you couldn't use it on a train or a bus or in a car, with the car seat, I can use it on a coach with seatbelts, it has a "stabiliser bar" so i could use it on a train (we used it on eurostar in 2005) and of course it works in a car.. with the australian system of a top strap it works bloody great on hatchbacks with split folding seats.
my apologies to people wanting to read about out of control kids, but my opinion is that a method of controlling them is denied to some of the parents that want to create as little hassle for other users of the plane as possible.
also the table in the toilets is inadequate for the job, therefore I am in the camp of the parents that change nappies in the cabin ( I do, and quickly remove the offending article to the toilets) as I think that the table in the toilets is a serious safety risk.
actually, after looking at that CARES system, it looks a lot like the "H" strap I have to supplement the booster seat I use for the 4 year old, it would probably come close to the specs of the CARES system (I might bring it and ask the PAX behind us for the OK) but its nowhere near as comfortable or safe as the maxi rider.

Parapunter

2nd Oct 2008, 12:15

You cannot reasonably expect a child under the age of three to know right from wrong. This is why the bleach is in the wall cupboard & the fruit and veg lives under the sink - for now.

The look certainly works on toddlers, but beware the no. The no gets very old very quickly with little kids.

Little_Red_Hat

2nd Oct 2008, 14:41

Derab, not sure about all airlines but crew are told not to accept any restraint in the cabin which is not approved (ie does not have the decals as mentioned earlier) Though the strap is similar, as it has not been approved for use with airline seatbelts I can imagine you might get knocked back if you manage to get it into the cabin at all (ground staff would probably say no, that is if you mention it- not that I'm suggesting you shouldn't :E) But I can pretty much guarantee when the cc do their cabin secure prior to take off it would get noticed pretty quickly...

Not sure why they won't approve the car seats though... have you asked if it is a blanket rule or is it to do with the model you have? I know in my few years of flying I have only ever seen them used twice...

Good point though about trains/coaches etc... maybe you could invent something to be used across the board and make your millions! :}

As for the aircraft change tables I agree, they're not the best... a good compromise may be to ask the cabin crew if there is an access toilet on board (they are generally bigger and have outward opening doors) if you brought a portable mat and dont mind putting it down on the floor you might be able to do it that way... bearing in mind not the safest and some crew might not allow it but hey... worth a try if you can't fit the kid on the table... those 737 ones are especially tiny!!

Little_Red_Hat

2nd Oct 2008, 14:44

Meant also to add, to the parent who mentioned DVD players.... brilliant distraction tool, and a good number of parents BYO portable DVDs... especially good if your kid has a Spongebob/Dora/Bob obssession as they will tend to sit there catatonic once that DVD goes on :}

Just be prepared with something else to distract them at top of descent when you have to switch it off... or there will be :{ all round!!!

TeamJQboy

2nd Oct 2008, 14:55

Its a safe n sound maxi rider, AU and NZ standards
from memory it was NZ from MEL to CHC, but not CHC to MEL that I was able to take it into the cabin.
JQ and QF (when they operated the route) were a no-no, I will be test driving DJ in November.

Derab, that's strange that Jetstar would not allow your car seat onboard. :confused: I personally fitted a car seat for a family last week on a CNS-MEL flight who were pre-boarded (prior to general boarding) and there was no issue. So long as the car seat conforms to Australian standards then we allow it - we even have our own blue restraint straps that attach the car seat to the passenger seat, and obviously the passenger seatbelt passes through the rigid frame of the car seat.

My only theory is maybe the Christchurch-based Jetconnect/Jetstar crew were being lazy or haven't been trained to fit the car seats? I really don't know why they didn't allow it.

AirborneSoon

3rd Oct 2008, 01:15

Please don't automatically assume that if the crew say no to your own restraint or seat it's necessarily because they are lazy or just don't want the hassle. Crew do NOT make the procedures and policies they are required to uphold.

My airline only allows passengers one type of 3rd party child restraint and we are NOT permitted to fit it for you. As to why some airlines will allow it and others wont has zero to do with how nicely you chat to the ground crew. And has more to do with things like this...

The level of risk the airline is willing to assume. Unfortunately there are people who will take no personal responsibility for anything and will use any incident as an excuse to sue an airline. Which may include injuries that result from them incorrectly fitting their own child restraint or using one that is not designed for the purpose they have used it.

Space in the cabin. Lets say you have 200 passengers boarding a narrow body (single aisle) jet on a tight time schedule and 3 passengers hold up boarding while they stand in the aisle for several minutes fitting a child restraint. On some jets it's just not possible to fit a child restraint quickly and without standing in the aisle. Preventing everyone else from moving past you. Many airlines have tight turnaround times that really only permit pax walking off, a quick clean and pax walking on. And what if a parent bought a car seat onboard then decided it was better not to use it. Where would it be stowed? It may not fit in the overhead lockers.

Additional training required for crew. Crew are responsible for ensuring you follow safety instructions on board and know how to use the equipment fitted for your safety. As a passenger you will rarely be aware of the amount of equipment we have, and we have to know how to use all of it. Some airlines may find it unnecessary to also train their crew in the correct use and fitment of various child restraints. How many choices are there on the market? Should be all know how they should be used correctly and be able to check you have fitted it right for the protection on your child? As crew I am always very concerned for little ones on my flights and that their seatbelts will serve them in an emergency.

A car seat is not an aircraft seat and a car child restraint may not work as effectively on an airline seat as it would in a car. Aircraft hit the tarmac at 300kph or faster. The seats on an aircraft are designed to take stresses differently to those in a car owing to the greater forces and different centre of gravity. Your car child restraint may be rated to withstand the forces in a car but not in an aircraft causing it to break away in a crash. Your car child restraint may attach to the weakest parts of an aircraft seat, or inadequately (especially if it's the type that requires an over shoulder sash belt to be secured) also compromising it's use. The best survival position for your child may not be fully upright strapped to a seat. And finally if an aircraft is on fire you have less than 90 secs to get out and survive. That's why seatbelts are so easy to remove, even in a fully dark cabin filled with smoke and rife with panic you have a good chance of undoing your seatbelt quickly and getting out.

Passengers have little situational awareness on a flight. I witness this daily as we are just minutes from touchdown and someone inevitably gets up to go to the toilet. They are not trained to listen to PAs, aircraft noises and chimes the way we are. Likewise they are not trained to evacuate the aircraft with a personal child restraint either and may panic, need assistance or end up entangled in the thing. Conditions which crew won't have time or opportunity to deal with.

I know that we all want to think about comfort and convenience when we get on a flight. Your crew want you to be focused on that too. But crew have to be focused on the one in a million chance that something may not go to plan. What you bring onboard doesn't just affect you, it also affects everyone around you. Any item that creates an obstruction to exiting the aircraft quickly is a serious danger in a confined space with lots of people.