Integrated Courses, You Poor Humans! [Archive]

kwokwinguk

12th Sep 2008, 22:54

Only time will tell whether putting £70K is worth investing or not.

I have just recently passed my pilot assessment with Cabair and they have offered me a place starting on 5 Jan 2009, integrated course. There are quite a few airlines that have gone bankrupt and is not just those in UK. It's happening everwhere such as Oasis airlines (HK), a budget long haul airliner that has gone bankrupt several months ago. If I pass my medical in next 2 weeks time I will still go for the course even by getting a loan of £70K. You may think I am a crazy guy walking off the cliff, but nobody knows what will really happens in the future. Maybe the future will be a good one after students completed their course! Who knows? Or maybe we will be end up in a huge debt and have to live in cr@p hole? The main thing is that I accept the responsibility of whatever I do. Blame no one!

(I did some research and have found out that there are still some airliners continuing to buy aircrafts (large orders). Does this mean these airliners are walking off the cliff too?)

All the best to those who is training to be a pilot. I believe the future is aviation.
David

Artie Fufkin

12th Sep 2008, 23:17

G-XO,

Not the most tactful thread I have ever seen!?! :\

Effectively nothing has changed. The advise to people considering flight training hasn't changed to last week.

Anyone involved with an integrated course needs to knuckle down and finish the commitment they have already made and not to let the stress and worry of recent events affect their training results, which presumably are of greater importance than ever.

A little tact and support to your future colleagues mightn't go a miss.

Aerospace101

12th Sep 2008, 23:37

Does this mean these airliners are walking off the cliff too?

There are lots of aircraft on order. For the BAs, TUIs, monachs etc these wont coome until 2012ish - so no impact on recruitment for 4yrs or so. For ryan/flybe, there are now hundreds of redundant experienced rated pilots to employ, forget low hours lot.

With the coming winter and economic recession it is better for the airline not to grow and consolidate old for new aircraft being more fuel efficient.

If your 70K gamble is based on this flawed argument for recruitment, i really do wish you the best of luck!!

diver69

12th Sep 2008, 23:57

Artie,
Spot on post - :D

G CEXO

13th Sep 2008, 00:15

I have just recently passed my pilot assessment with Cabair and they have offered me a place starting on 5 Jan 2009, integrated course. There are quite a few airlines that have gone bankrupt and is not just those in UK. It's happening everwhere such as Oasis airlines (HK), a budget long haul airliner that has gone bankrupt several months ago. If I pass my medical in next 2 weeks time I will still go for the course even by getting a loan of £70K. You may think I am a crazy guy walking off the cliff, but nobody knows what will really happens in the future. Maybe the future will be a good one after students completed their course! Who knows? Or maybe we will be end up in a huge debt and have to live in cr@p hole? The main thing is that I accept the responsibility of whatever I do. Blame no one!

Huge gamble and serious consequences if it doesn't turn out the way you want it to be after you graduate. Way too much of a gamble even for someone like me who has the price of an integrated course in cash :sad:

G-XO

diggafile

13th Sep 2008, 05:52

I was working in a major integrated FTO on 9/11. Complete mayhem.Glad to say I now meet captains with major airlines who were in training at that time. No career/job is for life these days, it is a big investment whichever way you train, nobody denies that but it is long term. The reason most people get into pilot training is because of the desire to fly. Very few people who approach the industry and the training sensibly do not get a good return on their money over their career and have a great working life. I dont understand G-CEXO and his gloating but I will challenge him to revisit this site in 5 years tell everybody what he is doing and be honest about time and money spent on his training (if he is a pilot) and I will introduce him to integrated students in training today and we will compare return on investment. I know who will be in front.

Best of luck G-CEXO but focus on yourself and your ambitions and committment, other people in difficulty will not make your career any better or more enjoyable.

jonnyhock

13th Sep 2008, 08:47

Notwithstanding the distinct lack of decorum in G CEXOs manner, I’m constantly left wondering what the point in this type of thread is? Is it due to a genuine interest in how aspiring pilots will cope in the current climate or is merely someone who themselves has chosen not to continue their training for the time being, and are desperately seeking assurance from others that they have made the right choice?

clanger32

13th Sep 2008, 09:07

As I believe my Good friend, HollingworthP alluded to earlier, Schadenfreude is not the most pleasant of human characteristics and there seems to be an unhealthy amount of it on this thread.

Spicejetter, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but you are one of the worst culprits. You really have bought into this theory that all integrated students are 18, paid for by mummy and daddy and ignorant beyond all compare. Further, you really seem to believe that at 28 you are the cats whiskers and know everything, frequently referring to "the kids" that do integrated. The reality, of those that I have met during my training is infinitely different, with the exception (i.e. the one thing you probably do have right) that a fair number have been fortunate that their families have been able to help financially - but VERY far from all of them.

Almost without exception, the guys and girls I know who are integrated, are genuine, intelligent and friendly people. I have never heard ANY of them wish modular students anything but goodwill, yet you seem to have bought into this theory that we all look down our noses at everyone else. That all integrated students think it's the only way to get in to an airline. Well the truth is so far removed. In my experience people choose integated because they believe it will give them a better chance...something we all want - the best chance of getting the job we all want.

Only a TINY percentage think the way you think we do. The truth is I see far more vitriol and unpleasantness from Mod students talking of integrated than I ever have vice versa. Your posts show you in a particularly unpleasant - and ill advised - light.

I wish you and EVERY student in this climate well, but if for no other reason could you at least TRY and show some compassion for the terrible situation that so many both training and experienced find themselves in for human reasons.

ChrisLKKB

13th Sep 2008, 10:40

Phychological nonsense and charachter assasinations aside ;), I passed my IR a few months before 9/11 and it was just a minor blip for recruitment compared to what is happening now. If you think diggafile that you can compare what happened then to what is happening now you are very confused, it's like comparing stubbing your toe with loosing a leg :ugh:

btw, there is no difference between modular and integrated, I trainned at a school which took both, intergrated mixed with modular doing the CPL and IR and no one really knew who was who, it certainly wasn't discussed, things may have changed since, if they have then trainning schools need to take a good look at themselves.

I'm not sure i'd want to associate myself with anyone who viewed either type of student differently and if I was involved with recruitment in an airline I certainly wouldn't want to employ someone like that. They're either going to have a chip on their shoulder or a superiority complex, both particularly unpleasant traits.

clanger32

13th Sep 2008, 12:02

ChrisLKKB,
Phychological nonsense and charachter assasinations aside
I assume that was aimed at me...:}
I have no intention of assasinating anyone or anything....I just get very very tired of this continual assumption that all integrated students are backed by uber rich parents and look down their noses at anyone who didn't do integrated. Which is, in my opinion, every bit as inaccurate as the tiny percentage who really think that modular is inferior....

Your last two paragraphs are absolutely spot on....judge someone on the content of their personality, don't pre-judge them based on their method of training!....both training methods will turn out a mixture of great, good, average and decidedly poor pilots....

(and By Psychological nonsense I assume you mean the Schadenfreude reference....which I meant in it's true context - taking unexpected pleasure from someone elses pain, not the often referred to pycho context...)

ChrisLKKB

13th Sep 2008, 12:41

Don't take it too seriously :}

btw mods, if you are going to delete sections of people posts, try and make it look like they haven't just started a sentance and then got bored.

bbtw it's no secret that the guy who ran SFT is running another flight school not too far away, I don't see the problem, no accusations are being made.

kwokwinguk

13th Sep 2008, 14:30

SD.

13th Sep 2008, 14:44

Don't forget the price of a type. A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course. 100k GBP of debt!

For almost the same price as an integrated course, you could go modular, buy an FI rating and a 320/737 rating. Surely that makes much more sense? :ok:

70k (plus interest) is a massive gamble kwokwinguk.

Ace of Spades78

13th Sep 2008, 14:55

Id like to hear what the Oxford marketing guys are currently saying about job prospects at their infamous open days.

G CEXO

13th Sep 2008, 15:24

G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?

The one where I won't be drawn in with the marketing :mad:

Don't forget the price of a type. A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course. 100k GBP of debt!

That puts the icing on the cake. Good to see someone understands the luck you have these days with £100k debt :ugh::ugh:

Aerospace101

13th Sep 2008, 15:27

A massive percentage of OAA grads have gone onto Ryanair and had to stump up another 25 to 30k on top of the integrated course

Seeing that Ryanair have stopped recruitment until atleast feb09, there wont be a massive percentage of oaa grads going to ryanair any longer! Infact none! doh

captain_rossco

13th Sep 2008, 15:58

I think that levelling a thread like this at integrated students is not the most sensible of things to do. I'll assume from the thread title thats it's only the int students who have to worry having forked out £XX,XXX (insert digits dependant on school). I feel the trainee demographic that should be concerned cannot just be defined by how much they have spent training! Everybody with an fATPL will for the next few months be a bit nervous about their employtment prosepects. It seems a little sour to improve ones self doubt due to the current downturn, by taunting those that have spent slightly more on their route to the licence.
As and when the slump picks up, i'll be watching this space to see who's bagging the jobs!

CR

Aviator321

13th Sep 2008, 16:15

If the max hsbc will loan someone to do OAAs course is £50k, how are people getting £100k in debt? Seems the max debt will be £50k, the rest will have to be saved up before starting. The repayments will be around £500-600 a month. If the student managed to save £50k before starting I would assume they had a good career to go back to after they finish, thus should be able to service the £600 a month. If it was given by rich parents, then as long as the student lives at home, they can make the repayments even on minimum wage.

On the other hand, training modular, paying for each lesson at a time then perhaps taking a smallish loan for the IR you could find yourself stuck trying to pay off the £200 a month loan on top of a mortgage and family.

This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.:ugh:

clanger32

13th Sep 2008, 17:02

Rossco,
Thanks mate....a useful contribution here and one I fully agree with.

As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.
For 1/ Is the type rating really 25/30k? I don't believe so (although could be wrong, I don't know the FYR specific) but would have thought more like £20k
2/ The max HSBC will loan anyone is indeed £50k, so we're talking £70k debt absolute worst case (which, admittedly is a bad one), not the £100k those that want to justify their own position would have everyone believe.

Aviator is right...and you do have to wonder if/when people will start realising that the debate will never end and thereby stop TRYING to force it.

JohnRayner

13th Sep 2008, 17:05

This is why the mod/int debate will never end and threads like this are pointless. You can make either method look better just by choosing your words carefully.:ugh:
:D:D:D:D

Couldn't agree more

Wee Weasley Welshman

13th Sep 2008, 17:08

The money isn't so much the issue - its probably the maximum you could afford whether Int or Mod.

The real advantage for the Mod boys is that they can pretty much stop. Today. Put it all on hold. Go back to paid work.

Or, they can complete the module they are currently on and then delay the remaining bits. THAT is the real advantage they have over someone who has committed to a training timetable they can't change without losing money.

The KEY ISSUE is not that there will never be any new jobs ever again. There will. The KEY is not to get your first ever IR issued and then not get a job for 3 years. Its expensive to keep it current and you'll get so generally rusty and jaded with the whole thing that passing the interview/sim ride is much harder than if you finished training a couple of months ago.

For many the attraction of Int has been the perceived continuity and speed of it. In the current situation that attraction has turned into a negative aspect.

WWW

Jumbo744

13th Sep 2008, 17:24

G-CEXO, what? you are scared? too bad for you. I will not change my mind on becoming a pilot, whatever happens. There are many jobs for starters all around the world. It's extremly sad for those people losing their jobs right now.

Aerospace101

13th Sep 2008, 18:01

There are many jobs for starters all around the world.

I would love for you to substantiate that claim....
(and we are talking about Joe Bloggs low hours fATPL with a British passport speaking only english btw)

G CEXO

13th Sep 2008, 19:14

ChrisLKKB

13th Sep 2008, 20:41

If the max hsbc will loan someone to do OAAs course is £50k, how are people getting £100k in debt? Seems the max debt will be £50k, the rest will have to be saved up before starting.

As for £100k in debt, I do wish people would stop manipulating things in order to make their own argument more cogent.

The quoted price on a course is for the minimum required hours which is what most people seem to budget for so assuming they put up 10-20k of their own money which could easily come from remortaging or a credit card to cover the remainder of the cost of the course (i've seen it done) we're up to 60-70k debt.

As with everything in life, things never go quite according to plan and it's not difficult to rack up some large unforseen bills. I've just checked Bristols hourly instruction rates.You're looking at £200/hr for a Warrior, £260/hr for an Arrow and £360 for a Senneca plus £20 per landing and £20 per approach .

Add to the original 60-70k a few extra hours for the ppl, a few for the imc, a few for the cpl and few for the IR, throw in some extra touch and goes and some extra approaches along with the odd exam resit and skills test retake and you wont see much change from 10k.

This happened in the past and it will continue to happen, most people I knew borrowed from family or put it on the credit card. Be advised, you are quite likely to go over hours for all aspects of flight trainning and it's a costly business. Add on 30K for a type rating and 100k doesn't look so inconceivable.

G CEXO, There are 2 paths to choose. One is to take a loan and see what the outcome will be after completing the course. The other is totally opposite not to take the loan and always wondering what will happen. What will you choose G CEXO?

Nobody here is suggesting that anyone should give up on their plans, just hold off on them, little cliches like those in your last 2 sentances are frankly irresponsible at a time like this, you can't sum up the descision making process required for spending vast sums of money with a few lines that sound like they could have come out of a soppy Hollywood film....you're not the marketing manager of a flight school are you ?

At this moment in time, if you really have to start, modular seems like the logical way to go, i'd listen to WWW's advice, it gives you the flexibility you need at a time like this. Once you've got your ppl/imc, go somewhere sunny (and cheap), rent an aircraft and learn to fly, not just pass skills tests, flying on your own or with mates, exploring a different country (or part of the country) is where the fun is at.

jaimz1982

14th Sep 2008, 00:01

Well I have it first hand that the airline loans will be drying up for abit. HSBC will be stopping at the end of September and BBVA s far as I'm aware have already stopped, this is including the one who can put up security!

But what does this mean? Will the FTOs start dropping like flies? Will int students start drying up because people cannot afford it? Who knows?

Will this then mean that in 2 years time when possibly the last intergrated students start popping out they could be considered the last batch for a while? Who knows.

What I think needs to be addressed that this is not just airline specific, houses are not selling, people are tightening their purses, life is getting expensive.

It's not simply bout when will their be jobs, but when will the economy start to improve.

I think until then being intergrated or modular possibly makes no difference, if there are no jobs, then noone cares which route you took.

As for addressing which is best, as a chap bout to start CTC, I have nothing but admiration for the chaps who do the modular route, I simply would not be able to do the 9-5 and do the flying. I know this becuse I tried it, it just didn't work for me! But I hve several friends who did and are flying for ryanair now!

Who cares how you got their? Just remember who helped you when you were struggling and try and pass abit of it on!

Best of luck to everyone who's trying to get on the ladder!

Jim

scallaghan

14th Sep 2008, 01:05

Hi

I read the threads with interest, I just finished my CPL and am thinking of waiting a few months for the IR course.

All because of downturn and paying back some money quickly to cover the CPL costs as it was more then advertised with my proper job that pays. I was also thinking once passing a IR I will not get a job quickly and that the market has very experienced pilots that are type rated etc along with the integrated having some preferences over modular with certain airlines.

Family / financial commitments, I was unable to consider full time integrated either with OFT or CTC and only wanted to be in a very small amount of debt on the basis the first job wont pay so well and want to be my own free man :)

Also heard a rumour that HSBC might be pulling the plug on the 80K loans at the end of the month.

PPL152

14th Sep 2008, 02:06

There are two options in my opinion, one of them is impossible, the other one is reachable.

The impossible one is that wannabes should stop paying for training, with time... flight schools start losing business, losing money etc... moreover, airlines will have less and less pilots to choose from, so they are forced to sponsor pilots... this would take a lot of years now and would be the ideal scenario!!

The other one is, if you want to become a pilot, you have to get a degree and get a well-paid job, then if you have the money, do it... but at least you are not relying on flying to live at times when your financial status is not at its best.

Keygrip

14th Sep 2008, 02:33

The KEY is not to get your first ever IR issued and then not get a job for 3 years.

So, just let the written exams expire then?

scallaghan

14th Sep 2008, 02:44

Exams are valid for 36 months from last pass, once IR course completed and passed they are valid for another period of time. Lasors contains this information etc, I think from memory as I dont have this infront of me, the ATPL exams are then valid for a further 7 years after passing IR.

Not an issue for me personally, but maybe for others.

Sometimes to wait 3 - 6 months depending on your situation makes sense. This is what I am doing purely to avoid debt being modular at the very end with a reasonable assumption on the economic climate of no job if I were finishing a IR in the next 12 weeks before christmas.

Wee Weasley Welshman

14th Sep 2008, 04:32

Whilst it's not desirable to let anything lapse you can do a ATPL brush up and re-sit the exams for <£2000. Several IR revalidation and refresher training plus getting up to SimCheck readiness is considerably more expensive.

What I wish to emphasise to Wannabes is that its not the fact that there won't eventually b job opportunities - there will. Its the fact that the gap between end of training and first opportunity can be a career killer.

Seen it many times.

WWW

G-SPOTs Lost

14th Sep 2008, 07:34

There is a lot of focus here about airline recruitment, if people can cast their mind back to Pre-JAR it was virtually unheard of to get a job in an airliner without 1000hrs and even then a Jetstream!.

People instructed, Did banner towing, flew Parachute aircraft or glider towed, people "cut their teeth" (Now theres a concept.....) on 3 and 400 series cessnas & chieftains, getting to fly a king air as pilots assistant was a HUGE deal, wannabees spent 12 months looking longingly through the cockpit window of a citation in the Hangar.

Eventually when you had 700 hours you might get line trained to fly AOC work in a light twin, busy little sectors working Mil ATC units, off airways or just underneath them to avoid Eurocontrol, High workload flying....

People who will entertain this kind of work will still find this kind of work if you are prepared to serve some sort of apprenticeship. If you aspire for the big silver bird and lament at how well you hit the LNAV & VNAV button in the Oxford pseudo sim then join the ever increasing queue.

This is not a call to training.....put perhaps those who are qualifying now for whom things didnt seem so bad 15 months ago should lower their aspirations of a job that up until JAR never existed anyway (Unless you were the rugby club captain and your dad was a senior captain at BA)

If you are now thinking "I have a loan to service at £4figures a month" cant possibly think about getting a lesser paid job, then congratulations you have just priced yourself out of the existing job market.

By going back a step you will be better prepared for when the dream job comes, be 1000 hours nearer a command and over a 30 year career it will probably lose or cost you nothing in terms of total salary.

If you want to remain in aviation and are just qualifying then dont consider yourself a poor human, load cargo planes if necessary just get any foot in the door.......any door and good luck.

heli_port

14th Sep 2008, 09:18

If you are now thinking "I have a loan to service at £4figures a month" cant possibly think about getting a lesser paid job, then congratulations you have just priced yourself out of the existing job market.

G-Spots well said :D

tbavprof

14th Sep 2008, 11:22

People who will entertain this kind of work will still find this kind of work if you are prepared to serve some sort of apprenticeship.

You might even find you like it and never look at the big iron except as SLF.

Thanks G-Spot:D

Aerospace101

8th Oct 2008, 11:57

The person that started this thread clearly has a chip on their shoulder about integrated students.

The reality of the current situation is that EVERYONE IN TRAINING now is going to face a very harsh future. I think the only people who are safe are the modular students in groundschool training, because its the cheapest point to bail out of. Anyone who has started any form of flying is going to be burning cash for years to keep whatever rating or point in training current.

I feel VERY SORRY for all of you who rececntly finished courses. When you set out no one saw this disaster coming. Flight training inherintly carries risk. Getting a job is half luck as it is hard work. If you finish training when there are no jobs you have no chance.

However, for those of you out there starting self funded training courses in the current climate, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. You know there wont many jobs in a year or so, yet many seem to continue signing away parents houses etc. Even those of you who are mature students, having saved up for years, or changed career, still happy to burn vast sums of cash.

Im not saying there wont be any jobs. There will be a few airline positions around. Most likely these will be going to experienced pilots NOT low hour grads.

Out of all the fATPL holders last year I would estimate 50% were getting airline employment. Maybe 25% instructing/air taxi/corporate etc And 25% no jobs in flying.

At the moment, and for the next few years we are talking about maybe 5% at best of fATPL holders getting airline employment. Thats 1 in 20. Now, you need to ask youself what makes you that 1:20 statistic - because 95% of you wont be getting a RHS first officer position.

There are fellow students on here giving the same advice, however they dont want to see you start training because it introduces more competition for them for jobs. FTOs just want your money. They can quite happily say 'its business as usual', 'when you finish training jobs will pick up'. They want you training - they want to make money. I graduated years ago, I have an airline job. It doesnt affect me if you start training or not.

One last time - I plead with you: if all you want to do is go into airline employment after training do something more productive over the next few years. The numbers are not on your side. If you have money to burn go back to education/uni. Get a proper job. Whatever you do, dont waste money on training - it will get ugly and very painful for you.

DONT SAY I DIDNT WARN YOU!

Prophead

8th Oct 2008, 12:34

Surely anyone who would borrow £50-100,000 in the current financial climate to do an integrated course is showing a massive lack of judgement and taking a huge gamble.

Is that the qualities a future employer is looking for in a pilot???

G CEXO

8th Oct 2008, 16:01

The person that started this thread clearly has a chip on their shoulder about integrated students.

Not at all, I can afford the whole integrated course aswell as a type rating in CASH. I just find the integrated lot about to start very foolish and selfish for themselves and their folks letting them secure on their property.

G-XO

rogerg

8th Oct 2008, 16:05

What on earth has it got to do with you?

G CEXO

8th Oct 2008, 16:15

What on earth has it got to do with you?

Firstly, freedom of speech is something we all get in life so deal with it. Secondly, if one potential integrated student decides not to go ahead in this current climate with an integrated course by reading this thread, then he has been guided well.

I have no problem with integrated students or schools. Just find the students foolish and selfish. Anyways, free world do what the :mad: you want.

G-XO

hollingworthp

8th Oct 2008, 16:23

I have no problem with integrated students or schools. Just find the students foolish and selfish. Ah yes - all integrated students fit a single mould (or is it mold?) with an identical background, one-size fits all etc. It is clearly beyond the realms of reason to fathom that for some it might be more than a selfish and foolish choice.

Day_Dreamer

8th Oct 2008, 16:57

If any Integrated students who have the available funding and resign from their course after reading this page, are misguided.
The time from selection through to completion can take from 18 months to 2 years before licence issue, and by this time the market will have changed again.
Probably for the better.

Those who are spreading this alarm and despondency should take stock that currently the market is very poor for employment of low hours pilots but that there are positions out there.
So its those coming out in the next few months to a year who will find it hard to get employment.
Those who are about to start their course will find a better climate for jobs when they finish.
Those who think otherwise and post here really do not have any idea about the future and are looking to the short term only.

Recently I have spoken with several potential integrated students, who are as positive about the upturn as I am, and who are willing to obtain their funding and training with a view to obtaining work in 2010 and beyond.
Training schools are actively seeking funding for their potential students, whilst not impossible to obtain, the security requirements are far more stringent, as are the requirements for a backup plan.

Go for your dream guys / girls on whatever route Integrated or Modular.

bluelearjetdriver

8th Oct 2008, 17:26

I apologise for reposting this thread, but I am on a tirade.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence, get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:

1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...

2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR

3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.

4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly, you will become un-current very quickly and secondly, you learnt how to fly so FLY.

5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or you will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook (and they are family members :} :E

6)Listen to WWW and redsnail

7)Don't give large deposits and never ever ever ever pay for the whole course upfront....puleeeeeeeeez

Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money(if any) to pay for the flight training. Also the military is not training that many either.

2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.

That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described, so I KNOW it works....

Thank you and good night!!

Aerospace101

8th Oct 2008, 17:39

Telling everyone to become flight instructors is bad advice.

Sure, for some its a great opportunity.

Not everyone will make a good instructor, and there wont be enough instructing jobs to go round the 1000s of fATPLs.

DayDreamer - I have given some sound advice. Ignore it at your peril. Unlike you, I am on the inside of the industry and can clearly see the storm thats headed towards us.

scotskenny

8th Oct 2008, 17:57

Not at all, I can afford the whole integrated course aswell as a type rating in CASH

so you have over 100k in cash at 23 have you ????

have you been robbing security vans :eek:

Day_Dreamer

8th Oct 2008, 17:58

Inside of the industry !!!
Well how do you know that I am on the outside.
Or do you think that only you are in the know.
Maybe your ego does not allow for others to have more informed knowledge.
If you have concrete information share it or stop wasting bandwidth.

You can look on the bleak side if you like but the winds of change are blowing and like any hurricane will blow themselves out in time.

Yes things will get worse before it gets better, but better is around the corner and will arrive be sure of that.

There are too many doom and gloom merchants on here, who influence wannabees by their uninformed comment

Aerospace101

8th Oct 2008, 18:27

DayDreamer - Carry on dreaming :ugh:

G CEXO

8th Oct 2008, 18:54

so you have over 100k in cash at 23 have you ????

have you been robbing security vans

more than 100k. Its quite amazing what investment can do.

Day_Dreamer

8th Oct 2008, 20:27

Dream On !!!

I don't need to dream as I live that dream every day that I go to work and have done so through boom and bust for the last 36 years.
Several redundancies have not tarnished my love for the job, and as retirement looms another member of the clan has taken up the mantle and has a similar view of the future as I do.

Aerospace, as i have said before put up the facts that you know and offer constructive advice to those who will become our industries future.
I have met many who knock this industry, its future, terms and conditions in fact anything that does not meet their myopic view.

Do not try and put people off from joining any training course, as when the upturn comes there will be not enough pilots to fill those slots.
Proactive planning has never been a strong point of this industry but in this case we must plan for the future, And as training takes so long to complete we should encourage those planning on joining the industry to start now and be ready to fill those positions.

Earlier this year the statistics for employment were showing a higher rate than has been suggested here with several SSTR's in employment and others with BA, Flybe, Air Southwest to name but three.

Those coming out of training since May have had an increasingly hard time to find employment, those are the persons who have my sympathy and support, and who will have a hard time over the next months.

Training Now represents an investment in the future.

James D

8th Oct 2008, 21:23

Anyone who is naïve enough to believe the utter nonsense day dreamer is spouting I suggest you have a peruse of his prior posts and you'll soon see what he's up too....
In particular the ones relating to integrated courses and anything relating to OAA and the OAA selection. To summarise, if you can't be bothered to look, he's either advertising the OAA product, persuading wannabes to attend their selection, telling people how great RyanAir is to work for after an integrated course, or slating CTC.
It seems he has a serious vested interest in OAA, just remember the Oxford marketing department gets everywhere....even PPrune

G CEXO

8th Oct 2008, 21:40

Yeah - and it's quite amazing for a 23 yo to have that much money made from investments. Let me guess, you worked really hard to get get it, held down two jobs and struggled through. Mammy and Daddy didn't help at all. You must give me your recipe to success! And to be smug about it. And in today's climate! Simply amazing - I think Gordon Brown et al would like a chat with you!!

I dont give a :mad: whether you believe me or not. Just because your 28 and f***ing broke doesnt mean someone younger than you can't be succesful. I have made my money and now spending it on realising my dream.

and btw, I invested well before the thunderstorm we are in. Call it good luck or well played, either way I have done well.

G-XO

Adios

8th Oct 2008, 22:17

G-CEXO is starting to sound a lot like Thomas Harrison, God rest his soul.

ChrisLKKB

8th Oct 2008, 22:23

more than 100k. Its quite amazing what investment can do.If you can make 100K by the time you are 23 i'd stick to investing, it'll be much more profitable that trying to get a job flying in the next 4 years or so.

(unless of course you were given 200K to start with)

As such a sucsessful investor you will know the importance of timing. By and sell your investments at the right time and you can make a fortune, by and sell at the wrong time and you'll loose the lot.

Similarly, starting and finishing your trainning at the right time and you'll stand a fair chance of getting a job. Starting and finishing at the wrong time and it could prove to be very costly.

However, if you do choose to start your trainning soon you should feel happy in the knowlege that you'll be helping to keep an instructor in a job during what will inevitably be a tough few years for FTOs. It will also ensure that there are instructors available to train those who have been more prudent than yourself when the up turn does come along.

Do yourself a favour and before you do part with any money, spend the next week or so reading the financial crisis section of the telegraph on line to get a feel for how bad things are and how much worse they are going to get. If you still think that you are going to be the exception then go for it, alternatively you may just spot an oppotunity to invest some of that 100K at a time when the market is low which may put you in a much better position in 2 years time to start your trainning and still have some money to live on while you are hunting for your first job.

Aerospace101

8th Oct 2008, 22:31

Thank you JamesD for the heads up. I did have a look at DayDreamers recent posts, and they do have a vast knowledge about integrated training courses, esp OAA, ryanair cadet scheme and likes to slate CTC;

Well I am biased, as I strongly believe in the OAA product

OAA have nearly full courses for 2008 with Netjets, Flybe, EPST to name a few customers.
Rumours that BA may enter the fray as well.
And there appears to be an endless supply of persons, prepared to pay the current prices.

There is a notice board at OAA with the names of those who have successfully obtained jobs, both via the Waypoint scheme and Integrated.

OAA, FTE, and Cabair will try their best to place students but if there are no jobs then it will take a couple of years to see an upturn.

Don't be sucked in by the CTC hype, there is no guarantee that they will do any better in the future than the other established training schools.

So DayDreamer, which part of the industry are you IN? Im in the airlines. It sounds like youre in the Flight Training Industry??:=

Back to your last post:
Aerospace, as i have said before put up the facts that you know
Here are some facts; if you read my post:
- Major economic world downturn
- Airlines gone bust: maxjet, XL, zoom...
- High oil prices
- Banking crisis means cash drying up for airlines to burn
- Airlines predicting losses this winter (Ryanair, BA...)
- Unpaid leave for pilots
- Airline employement frozen or suspended
- Holding pools either filling up or already full.

Now the last time something like this happened was Sept11 2001. Airline employment for low hour grads on a sustainable scale did not restore until 2004. So that was 3yrs recovery. So a lesson from history would suggest airline employment will not be back to where it has been for atleast another 3 years. DEFINATELY NOT the 15 months it takes to complete a training course.

Is it not obvious that undertaking training now is a very risky idea. Ive made it clear I'm not denying there wont be any jobs. Flybe obviously recruiting. But we are talking about such a small percentage of jobs to fight over for the 100's of fATPL holders already job searching; forget those just taking plunge right now.

IF you start training now: A small percentage of you will get a rhs FO job ~5%. A few of you will get jobs in corporate/air taxi etc. The MAJORITY will NOT get any aviation related jobs. You will spend a few years out of flying before the upturn, costing you to keep ratings current and trying to make yourself employable. You will be throwing money away!! While your colleagues who graduated after you can walk into jobs because of their skills currency and timing with the upturn.

offer constructive advice

I have. I'll repeat it again. Do not start training now. Wait atleast 1-2yrs. In the mean time either get a job and continue saving (can you afford a SSTR?) or go into education, get more qualifications. When the time comes that the job market is more bouyant, and you can actually see FTO grads getting jobs, then take the plunge. In 2yrs time if the airlines are desperate for students, as daydreamer suggests, maybe therell be more sponsorship or mentored schemes around. Which are clearly worth waiting around for in any case.

If you want to go in corporate or instructing then maybe now is a good time. I dont know. I have no knowledge of that sector.

Training Now represents an investment in the future.

Well, I believe you are wrong. I think you have a vested interest in those potential students reading this website, which I warned readers to in my last post.

Maybe starting training in late 2009 will be an OK decision. But right now it will cost you much heartache and money.

James D

8th Oct 2008, 23:13

Members of the Oxford marketing machine seem to pop up in various guises on PPrune, this is one of the more obvious cases though. Just for starters, here you have a guy encouraging wannabes to attend the Oxford assessment over the GAPAN ones for an impartial assessment of your future potential as an airline pilots..... the alarm bells should be ringing. (See his prior posts)

Anyone else who has also attended both the OAA assessment and the GAPAN ones will know what a preposterous statement this is. I'll be adding him to my list of posters to disregard going forward.

cleared-touch-and-go

9th Oct 2008, 01:38

I have read this thread with interest and I have to say there is a hell of a lot of bitterness on here. I thought the idea of PPRUNE was so that we could all unite, share information and generally be part of a community which loves aviation??

I also don't understand this venomous attitude between Modular and Integrated students. We're not all that different in the head - most of us love the thrill of taking off, the challenge of getting from point A to point B and the peace of mind of walking away from the aircraft safely after a flight. We all want to become employed - at which point the training will be irrelevant and we will share the flight controls with people who we don't even ask what kind of training they did, nevermind judge them on their response! So, the Integrated students shouldn't lose sight of the fact that for some, Modular represents the only way of fulfilling a dream, but at the same time, Modular people shouldn't take any satisfaction in the fact that integrated students don't have the most ideal situation at present. Are we not all in this game together? Sharing information to inform the masses as opposed to critisising decisions that have been made by individuals?

Personally, I am a modular student. My Dad is a builder and my Mum is a nurse. Neither of them are particularly wealthy, but they work unbelievably hard and as long as I work half as hard as they have done I will be pleased. Realistically, my family can't provide me the money I need for the training, let alone Integrated - but I don't blame them for that, that's just natural selection and how it is - i'm not bitter about it. If my Dad was a lawyer and my Mum a high class hooker, would I use their money to train? Damn right I would! I don't blame anybody for using the resources available to them as long as the passion and commitment to genuinely be pilots is there.

I had a chance to go integrated but I failed my simulator checkride at Phase 4 of the CTC. Therefore, I have had to work hard, save money and borrow from the bank to start my training. Does this make me hate people who got on the CTC course? Absolutely not - good luck to them. They were successful in something I wasn't and again, that's life.

The point I am getting at is that however you train and however you find the funds to do it, it is only relevant if you a) work hard and b) enjoy it. All other factors such as rich parents, big bank loans, poor parents, small loans, investments that have come good for you, etc etc etc - they are all totally insignificant if you don't knuckle down and work hard whilst enjoying it. I am not flying until tomorrow evening now and I have had four or five early morning flights on the spin, so I have afforded myself the luxury of a couple of bud lights and a lie in tomorrow. But as I sit here on my balcony in Orlando and look out at the waving palm tress and lightning illuminating the sky, I am totally happy with what I am doing. If I could go back and get on the CTC course, I'm not going to lie and say I wouldn't do it, because of course I would, but it wasn't to be, so I just have to reach my goal another way. So for those who are lucky enough to be on such schemes, ignore these bitter people who are on here boasting that the industry is going belly up and you're the ones who will suffer - they haven't come to terms with the fact that they aren't as fortunate as you either because (like me) they weren't talented enough to get on a CTC type scheme or because you have had financial backing that wasn't available to them.

I, on the other hand have totally come to terms with this and I wish everybody, whether you are modular or integrated, the very best of luck. Most of us have taken a big step into this training arena, leaving behind good jobs and making financial gambles - but I for one wouldn't swap it for the world. We're all aiming to get to the same place so why are we battling with each other to get there!?

Just enjoy it - for some of us, the pursuit of this dream will not come to fuition and for others, they will have great careers - but one thing is for certain, if I find myself in an office doing a boring job in 10 years time still paying loans off, I will be quite depressed, but I will always have the memories of being in a beautiful part of the world, being young and learning how to fly an airplane, having the time of my life and that is something which I don't think money can buy.

To end, here is a quote from one of my friends back home in an email he sent to me. It made me realise that I have had the balls to do what I'm doing and even if it never comes off, at least I tried:

"Fair play mate - out there chasing the dream while were all here working for pennies and answering to idiots". Very true - all students should be applauded for their ambition and their sacrifices. Let's just stop having a dig at each other eh?

Prophead

9th Oct 2008, 07:35

Cleared-touch-and-go, most people on here agree with you.

If you have the cash or means of getting it then good luck to you, if you have worked hard and saved the money for an integrated course then well done. That is a hell of an acheivement in its own right.

The problem is alot of people who dont have the cash will borrow it. This may make sense in a time where the industry is booming and likely to be for the foreseable future. That is not the case at the moment. It is not enough for things to just level out, there will still be many pilots out there who have been made redundant. There may be even more by the time your qualified. Things will have to be considerably better before low houred fATPL's are getting jobs. There will always be the odd few and the schools will parade these around as marketing material but its just as likely they got in due to contacts in the industry or being in the right place at the right itme than their choice of training route.

If people like OAA are still marketing their product at people who require a big loan then they should be ashamed of themselves, but hey, they are a business after all. Banks have teams of experts there to assess risk when lending money, the current problems are caused in part to them lending money to people who were too risky. Even these banks are starting to stop the loans for an fATPL. What does that tell you?

If you cannot afford Integrated (or anything else for that matter) without taking on a huge loan and you cannot work to save for it, then guess what? you cant have it. If more people thought this way the country would not be sinking in debt.

Im not saying that you cant get an fATPL. You can get exactly the same licence, but if you borrowing money then why do it the most expensive way?

clanger32

9th Oct 2008, 08:29

Thankyou Cleared touch and go.
Like you, I really couldn't care less how someone got their licence....I'll judge someone on the content of their personality, not how they got their licence...and unfortunately there are a number of people lacking in that respect. You however, sound like a top bloke to have a beer with...maybe some day...

Aerospace - I really don't mean to be rude, but your posts really come across as "listen to ME, I AM a pilot, I know what's best for all of you and you're all fools if you don't listen to ME". Which is all well and good, but I think the point that Day Dreamer (regardless of his/her affiliation or not with any FTO) is trying to get across is that you've not backed that up, with anything substantial. For example:

Here are some facts; if you read my post:
- Major economic world downturn
- Airlines gone bust: maxjet, XL, zoom...
- High oil prices
- Banking crisis means cash drying up for airlines to burn
- Airlines predicting losses this winter (Ryanair, BA...)
- Unpaid leave for pilots
- Airline employement frozen or suspended
- Holding pools either filling up or already full.

These AREN'T actually news as such - that you would only know through your intense involvement in the airline industry (although they are [probably] true statements - bear with me here).

These could have been picked up from any media by a 13 year old with no experience. There's nothing to back your assertion that you REALLY know what you're talking about....for example, I received some info the other day that BAs holding pool is emptying faster than I thought it would be (that's not to say it's a rapid depletion) - so how true IS your last bullet? Certainly true that BA aren't taking any more CVs, but how long will that last?
I actually think you're right on a lot of things and suspect you do know what you're on about, but I'm afraid I do find some of the self righteousness a bit trying....there are a LOT of people on here with more than the 10 years experience that's the max you could have....

Day_Dreamer

9th Oct 2008, 08:59

Well Well Well
People who think I am part of the OAA customer service team are very wrong, yes I do know people in that department as well as the owners of CTC, and managers in FTE.
So I have a balanced view of the training industry and may be more optomistic because of what I know.

If you read my posts they offer a balanced view of the industry rather than the "Doom and Gloom" merchants and perpetual moaners generally viewed on Pprune.

Aerospace you are talking about Now again and not looking towards a resolution in the next couple of years, which I am sure will happen.
Look at 9/11 there were massive layoffs in the industry but within less than two years the markets was buoyant again.
The industry is global and to get a job we must not just look at the UK and Europe, other economies are suffering yes but there are those which are still expanding and recruiting.
The job section of Flight International still has jobs being advertised and only yesterday a friend of mine (low hours modular student) told me that he has that Jet job and will start at the end of this month.
Jobs are scarse, but I can say that there are still jobs out there, not in the legacy carriers or some of the larger charter operators, but if you are keen and willing to take ANY flying job you will find work even now.

As for my credentials I have over 35 years in the Industry was an Oxford Air Training School Integrated student in the early 70's and have been flying professionally in the Air Taxi, Airline, and Corporate fields for all that time.
Having been through the earlier Boom and Bust of the 70' and early 80's I understand the job market and I have been on the dole when out of work, on more than one occasion, but fortunately for never longer than 6 months.

During 1982 When Laker went bust the job market was very bad and there were several hundred trained pilots looking for work, this took most of them abroad to get that work, but within 2 years the UK market was opening up again and so they returned.
During that time the schools at Oxford and Perth were still producing new pilots who found work, even before some experienced pilots.

As for my support of Ryanair, that comes from having many friends who still work for them or who have worked for them, nearly all of whom were relatively happy with their choice.
For SSTR pilots the airline is a good starting point, and the RYR training standards are recognised as high in the industry and recruitment of these pilots to other airlines has been beneficial to the future employer.

High oil prices yes relatively from 12 months ago but today its below $89 a barrel from a high of $148, on falling demand.
Unpaid leave has been in the industry again from the early 80's and has been used on a voluntary and compulsory basis to keep pilots cabin crew, and office workers in employment rather than layoffs.
Mind you it was in the days that management valued it work force.

Funding for training is a big problem, but if its available go for the dream.
The banks have tightened up their criteria for lending as I have said in the past, and a requirement for £100K is certainly ballpark if you consider an SSTR as well.
The questions are can you raise that money and afford the repayments later ?
Without a strong backup plan the banks will not loan that money now.
The result of the credit squeeze is that there will be less students going through training and therefore at the end they will find those jobs through higher demand and less availability.

Thanks for giving me a good laugh after reading some of the posts, and I am sure the OAA marketing department are having a good laugh too at the thought that I work with them.

eikido

9th Oct 2008, 09:38

Out of all the fATPL holders last year I would estimate 50% were getting airline employment. Maybe 25% instructing/air taxi/corporate etc And 25% no jobs in flying.

At the moment, and for the next few years we are talking about maybe 5% at best of fATPL holders getting airline employment. Thats 1 in 20. Now, you need to ask youself what makes you that 1:20 statistic - because 95% of you wont be getting a RHS first officer position.

A 1:2 ratio chance of getting a job during good times??? I assumed it was something like 1:20-1:50! And ~1:200 during bad times! (And i mean all pilot jobs in Europe, not only RHS on a JET). Edit: Maybe excluding FI jobs.

I hope that you are correct and i'm really wrong.

I haven't started my training yet. I'm still planning and have for the past 5 months. Modular however is the only option for me.

Eikido

eikido

9th Oct 2008, 09:48

I apologise for reposting this thread, but I am on a tirade.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence, get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:

1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...

2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR

3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.

4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly, you will become un-current very quickly and secondly, you learnt how to fly so FLY.

5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or you will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook (and they are family members http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

6)Listen to WWW and redsnail

7)Don't give large deposits and never ever ever ever pay for the whole course upfront....puleeeeeeeeez

Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money(if any) to pay for the flight training. Also the military is not training that many either.

2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.

That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described, so I KNOW it works....

Thank you and good night!!

I can't believe it. I got goose bumps when i read this:eek:. This is EXACTLY (all points in your list) what i have concluded after 5 months of planning!!!
Including becoming an FI, and listening to WWW and redsnail.

There is however one point i have been thinking of which you haven't mentioned. Plan and do it during a recession and not during good times!

Eikido

ChrisLKKB

9th Oct 2008, 11:21

There is however one point i have been thinking of which you haven't mentioned. Plan and do it during a recession and not during good times!It might be stating the obvious and you may have already come to this conclusion but down turns are sharp and painful, and the recoveries are long and tortuous. My advice would be not to get drawn in by companies with large marketing departments who pressurise you to start trainning as soon as possible claiming you need to be ready for a boom in recruitment, the recovery will long and protracted and we haven't yet hit the bottom. Any boom is a long way off.

To be perfectly honest i'd be very wary of any company with a large marketing department, fancy glossy brochures and an impressive website, it's your 70K that is paying for that.

Look for good first time pass rates and recommendations from past students and ignore carefully manipulated statistics from companies who claim they are more likely to get you into a job because of their connections with the airlines.

There are only two FTOs that are really worth their salt and neither seem to appear with any regularity on this discussion board, (probably mainly due to the fact nobody ever has any complaints about them).

Regarding Modular and Intergrated, having done the CPL and IR alongside intergrated students, I can tell you that there is NO difference between the two. Same aircraft, same instructors, same tests, same licence, NO DIFFERENCE.

Right now the modular route is the way to go as it has the advantage of allowing you to time when you finish your trainning and in the future I can see the integrated route being replaced by the MPL.

James D

9th Oct 2008, 13:21

Well Well Well
People who think I am part of the OAA customer service team are very wrong

Maybe so, but as a wannabe I find it very difficult to take your advice seriously when 90% of your posts read like an OAA marketing pitch.

I find your motivation curious, if I recall it was only last week you were over on the CTC wings thread advising potential wannabes not to sucked in by the CTC hype (not to mention gloating about their recent loss of unsecured bank funding) yet you appear to expend an extraordinary amount of time and effort hyping up the OAA product??

Day_Dreamer

9th Oct 2008, 14:20

James

CTC is a good company who have got fat on the backs of their product.
I am totally against their practice of only paying 1K per month for the first 6 months this is worse than slave wages.
The guys I know had to rent a house together and claim housing benefit to survive even back in the 80's.

The established schools are the best route to the fATPL and CTC is among those although the junior on the block.

My own experience with wannabees like yourself has given me the insight and experience to recommend a route for success in training.

I am a civilian associated with the Air Training Corps and over the past few years several cadets have taken the road to the fATPL the most successful have trod the integrated path.
They are now with BA, Flybe and Ryanair.
So I feel as a professional pilot, parent and trainer that my advice is as good as the next persons in the industry.

As for OAA, I am an ex student and fly regularly with ex students so I know the standards set and obtained.
I have also flown with many from the modular route and from FTE and have my opinions about the type of training from both, none of it bad I might add.
As I said I was integrated and still strongly support that route if the individual can afford the costs, and repayments.

The modular integrated debate will go on for a long time to come, but the feelings in the European CAA's are towards a more regulated training regime and that points towards an integrated style route being their prefered way.
Modular whilst the route of many will be more regulated by the JAA regulations in the not too distant future.
My contacts in the UK CAA want a much more regulated approach to modular training which will in their view improve standards.

Good luck to the wannabees out there, the choice is your, which ever way you go.

My advice is have a good backup plan, but dont hold back on your goal, things will improve, over the next 2 years.

I ask those of you who have gone the various routes to post here on how long from the first step it took to achieve the fATPL.
That is for modular the first PPL flight and for integrated from selection or the first approach for funding.
This will give a good basis for those planning on their career a time frame to plan for completion at the start of an upturn.