New Ticket Team vying to wrest control of AIPA

[blow.n.gasket]

I see there is a new group using a voting ticket to take control of the AIPA executive in the upcoming elections.
The last time this was tied was by a mob calling themselves the AIPA REFORM GROUP (ARG).
What's this new mob going to call themselves?
Any ideas to give them a hand?

[max autobrakes]

Well looking at who's on the ticket and the blatant management aspirations of those on "the ticket" as you called it I'd suggest:
"VICHY AIPA" would be a fair call!:}

[slim]

Not quite Mr Gasket. The upcoming election is for the position of AIPA President only. Two candidates have nominated and voting is only open to the current committee of management members. This is not an election for the Committee of Management, where a ticket has been used in the past. I believe a current committee member has, in support of one of the presidential candidates, suggested on another forum that there are some like-minded individuals on the committee. Can't rule out another ticket being used though when the next committee election occurs!

[Capt Kremin]

Wrong slim. The election is for all of the office holders of AIPA and there is a ticket for that election.

[noip]

To clarify ....

It is the normal election by the Committee of Management as to which of them will be Office Bearers ..... they are already elected by the membership, they are deciding who does which job ..

N

[blow.n.gasket]

Slim,
are you even in Qantas?

[Condition lever]

Do you have to be a member of Qantas to be a member of AIPA?
(rhetorical question)
Or is that just how it seems?

[blow.n.gasket]

Good try Condition.
Unless you were in Qantas the above conversation would be meaningless.

[slim]

Thanks Kremin, I was trying to say executive elections, not CoM elections. Sorry Blown, missed the word 'executive' in the first line of your original post and thought you were talking about CoM elections and the previous use of a ticket in them.

[Keg]

CL, my understanding is that if you're part of the QF group then you can be an AIPA member. Australian & International Pilots Association (http://www.aipa.org.au) (I think) and give them a call. :ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

Looks as though the transformation is almost complete.
A mate on Comm just told me Bazza's got Welsh back to negotiate the new EBA 7.5. All they need to do now is invite the "gimp" brothers back and the transformation will be complete.:ok:

PS The feed back I'm getting from the line is that a lot of pilots who voted NO on EBA 8 now regret that vote and wish for a few tweaks and have it finalised.
How about it?
I'd suggest if enough pilots push this sentiment on the survey it would be a brave President who would ignore the push.
We live in hope.

[Going Boeing]

Blow'n, I don't know your situation or where your coming from but I don't understand your position. If you look at the history of the new President and the Vice Presidents, you will see a lot of experience on the B767 & A330 - they may have recently moved onto the A380 & thus became tall poppy targets but knowing the personalities involved, I have a lot of faith in them negotiating for the good of all AIPA members. We now have a president with good communication skills & who hasn't burnt bridges with the new CP.

As it is a new EBA negotiating team, it is understandable that they invite experienced past negotiators to assist them in identifying the many land mines that QF management will put in the next round of EBA negotiations. BW is a balanced & very experienced negotiator so if they did not invite him to assist them they would be castigated by the majority for not using all available assets to achieve the best outcome.

Your loyalty to the previous "ticket" is commendable but blind - three years of toil but with nothing in the credit side of the balance sheet. We all need to get behind the COM & new executive and assist them in achieving the best possible outcome.

PS. I don't regret voting NO to the EBA8 proposal.

[QFinsider]

I think there ought be a paradigm shift..

As someone else pointed out bringing back the genius that pushed the Singapore basing on S/O's (not B744 Captains of course) to handle the "negotiation" is a reminder of the more things change the more they stay the same..

For those who weren't aware, the Singapore basing was an ill concieved poorly thought out, never costed and divisive little thing, that gave to one group at the expense of the other...Does that sound familiar to EBA8?

:ugh:

[OhSpareMe]

Not costed, hey? I clearly remember seeing and reviewing the costings for the Singapore basing, although I admit the cost saving was miniscule in comparision to the grief that a forced posting to Singapore might have caused some people. Frankly I didn't think it was worth the hassle of establishing the base.

However, those SO's (and some 744 Captains who advised me that they had approached the Management with an offer to be based in SIN) who had bothered to the sums on the tax position were onto it like rats up a drainpipe. By my calculations I was going to be taking home more dough than the Sydney based FO. Everytime I climbed onto the jet it was an overtime sector. A published roster for 12 months (well until a certain person invoked seniority in order to establish preferential bidding) preallocated leave and sim cyclics, 175 hr divisor without blank lines. No more slipping in SIN southbound for two days so you could act as a third or forth pilot back to Australia. It had a lot going for it. In many ways it was a shame that it didn't get going.

[Gingerbread]

Agreed Blown, ya statement that 'those who voted NO on EBA 8 now regret that vote and wish for a few tweaks and have it finalised,' does seem to be gaining momentum.

But yas also got to remember that when 1661 people vote No to LHEBA 8, el presidentay's political enemies nailed him and his supporters promising that a new look Qantas will be kind to pilots led by a more enlightened AIPA Team and we've got to give the new team time to deliver.

I hope they can, because if they can't, Christmas won't bring much to celebrate. An awful lot of people will have no one to blame other than themselves and the loudmouths on Qrewroom and Pune who blew off LHEBA 8 with scant regard for the innocent. :*

[max autobrakes]

There is definitely more to this than meets the eye.
Didn't the Short Haul first round vote during their EBA negotiations end up with a similar % No vote to the Long Haul EBA8 ?
The Union then went on to negotiate a better outcome on the back of that result, despite the simpering letter from a certain individual admonishing anyone that might vote No.
So why is it that the New Team are hell bent on applying bandaids to EBA7 and not bringing EBA8 to a conclusion?
I understand that the economic winds have changed 180 degrees but there were a number of good aspects to EBA 8.
Don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater in order to satisfy a political whim.

Any truth to the rumour that the company doesn't wish for EBA8 to ever see the light of day because they got their costings back in the last 3 weeks of the negotiations and blanched when they saw how much the pilots would gain.

[Capt Kremin]

The difference between the large SH NO vote and the large LH NO vote was that the COM did not endorse the SH EBA; they just put it up to for a vote expecting it to fail. The opposite happened with the LH EBA. The NO campaign run to all the S/O's was very effective and resulted in the large NO numbers.
A couple of exec guys who had nothing to do with the EBA got tossed as collateral damage, I have no idea why the Treasurer got tossed, he did a good job but maybe was seen to be a supporter of the now ex-president and hence had to go. The same goes for one of the VP's who had nothng to do with the EBA apart from trying to explain it to the troops on Qrewroom. Too close to the ex-president as well I guess.
The jury is out for a while on the new team. They are already undermanned with one of the guys out on long term illness. Lets see what happens. Apparently they are going to "ask" for things like a return of salary sacrifice for laptops instead of using the big stick. Is that giggling I hear from QCC3?
I also believe that when the details of the new EBA deal that the Company will push for become known, then the voting down of EBA 8 will be seen by many as folly. Two months is a long time in aviation.

[OhSpareMe]

I concur. The decision to vote down EBA8 is looking more stupid by the day.

Yes, there were some things in the EBA that I didn't like, but I felt that I could live with it. As far as pilot contracts go it wasn't that bad. By taking a balanced view of the proposed EBA, coupled with the indicators of the forthcoming economic turmoil, I thought it was too big a risk to vote it down.

Despite my best efforts out on the line to support a YES vote I just couldn't get through to some. Voting NO because you didn't like one aspect of the contract was foolish. Knocking it back because "you always knock back the first offer" was just plain stupid.

We are going to cop it now!

[What The]

Wow, Henny and Penny together at last.

[Autobrakes4]

"Well it appears, so I'm told, that self-interest, personal political agendas, greed and the desire for revenge by a vociferous few, all nauseatingly portrayed as altruism and a cloying but insincere concern for the careers of younger AIPA members, has won the day."

A vociferous few! 70 odd percent of the membership voted it down you clown.

This was a s:mad:t EBA, and it got what it deserved. You blokes live in fairyland. :ugh:

[dragon man]

Never let the facts get in the way of the truth. The new CP is very keen to do a deal in 2 weeks. It would be EBA7 with back pay, more money for the 380, fixed allowances and a couple of other small issues fixed. It would be a compliant agreement as allowed for under law and could be put to the troops prior to Xmas and allow the engineers to get back pay with their retrenchment. EBA 8 was and allways will be the greatest crock of s..t we will ever see.

[Keg]

I voted 'no' to EBA8 because I reckoned we could do better. 'Better' to me wasn't a pay rise for A380 S/Os so that they could earn more than 744 S/Os who already earn more than 767 F/Os. :rolleyes:

Here is our chance to 'bury' the day 1 lottery and bring all S/Os onto the same pay rate. Instead it appears we're going to continue the charade and further disadvantage those who take promotion in the first few years in order to protect the few who can't/won't take promotion in the first dozen? :ugh:

I hope that the rumours are wrong because if this is the way it goes down I'll be very disappointed in this 'new' AIPA. The pendulum will have swung back too far the other way. :sad:

[OhSpareMe]

The new CP is very keen to do a deal in 2 weeks.

That is a crock and it stinketh.

Are you telling me that the previous EBA negotiating team sat through 18 months and 40 odd separate meetings with the company to eek out EBA 8 and now the new Wonder Team is going cut a deal in two weeks?

Equine droppings.

[mustafagander]

You people who think EBA 8 is OK stagger me. Read section F again and think how savagely you would be screwed by it. Remember, what is written is what would happen - those comfortable words from QCC that "we would never use xxxx" are not worth the paper they are written on.

I have been in charge of scheduling and negotiated contracts with charlie Q and I've seen it time after time. :ugh:

[lambsie]

The reason EBA8 took 18 months was because GD et al were re-writing the entire agreement and making it fit their retirement plan. The new exec will merely put EBA7 to bed so we can get on with number 8, after asking the rank and file what's important.

[OhSpareMe]

OK mustafagander I will read Part F again. But perhaps you could enlighten people like me into exactly how we were going to be screwed because the changes that I reviewed seemed reasonable asks.

Considering the rostering Part F of EBA 8 contained some 39 pages replacing the at least 108 pages of Part 6 of EBA 7 even dumb prix like myself had a reasonable chance of understanding the new rostering rules.

And lambsie, I am sure it wasn't GD ,et al as you put it that rewrote the entire agreement, but rather it was the AIPA team that came up with the proposals in the first instance. All the Company said was that we needed to be more efficient. Oh, and that they didn't want to pay any more for the A380.

Putting EBA7 to bed in the next 2 weeks will consign us to greater irrelevance.
Pushing forward with a new pay rate for the A380 embedded within a revised EBA7 is largely what this whole shemozzle is about - because, you know, 300 grand a year to be a 744 Capt is just not enough.

By all means go ahead and ask the rank and file what is important. They will most likely tell you that they want more dough for less work.

[Tempo]

Our new president summed it up nicely yesterday....EBA 7 is dead. It is unrealistic to think that we can continue with our head in the sand thinking that the EBA 7 contract and all the b#***** that goes with it will keep us competitive in the current environment. Give us the EBA7 rollover, get the back pay and lets get a new competitive EBA 8 underway.

[dragon man]

Tempo, you are 100% correct. I might be out by 3 or 4 days however the aim is to have this finished by November 30 and a vote prior to xmas. There is goodwill from the new CP grab it with both hands and run.

[Keg]

As I posted in the EBA8 forum on Qrewroom Tempo, what rate are you happy to accept for backpay?

[CaptCloudbuster]

I have heard on good authority all that will be offered is 3%.

New rates for the A380 so we can kiss goodbye any hope of relevance for the future.

Rumour has it QANTAS have employed the services of a former RUDD adviser to lobby for change to the Sale ACT opening the way for the final stage in GOD's plan.

Already we see JitConnect getting B737-800's, Mainline portrayed in the media as suffering great downturn in forward bookings whilst Jetstar is saving the day.... heard today from the gingerbeers the B767's are due to stay now till 2016!!:eek:

Mainline will wither on the vine in the new global order unfolding before us!!

[OhSpareMe]

Well I can't see good old GD rushing to sign off on another EBA or variant in the next 15 days before he hands over the reins to Al Joyce.

And when the new bloke arrives I think his plate is going to be rather full with reviews of capacity cuts, etc so worrying about a pay rate for the A380 is going to be way down the list. And why not - he is having his flying done for Dec 2005 rates of pay. No need to rush that one through*.

Lets face it boys and girls - our one shot has been well and truly fired. And it missed.

And Tempo - if EBA 7 is well and truly dead then how come I received an email this morning from the Pres informing me of the four so-called options?


*I know about the contractural requirement to have A380 pay and conditions in place within 3 months(?) of it commencing revenue ops. But here is my prediciton - it will still be flying regardless.

[tony_8]

Even the smaller brained Pilots in Qantas would not accept back pay at 3%. If the new AIPA Executive wants to follow that line, then they are truly without backbone and intelligence and will be relegated very quickly to the dustbin marked “incompetents”.

[max autobrakes]

Team Bazza is just a mediocre reincarnation of the Holt dynasty .
Incometence Tony? Never!:}

[Capt Kremin]

The new team are getting the runs on the board early...... not!
An email went out today to all AIPA members. There will be no roll-over agreement of the EBA so good bye backpay and all the other niggly little issues for the time being, its back to negotiating a new EBA from scratch! Apparently the "speak softly and negotiate with our cuddly new friends in Flt Ops" approach has had about as much luck as the realists amongst us expected it would.
All those who tossed out the last President because they perceived the company wouldn't negotiate with him take note. You were wrong and this team is going to run into exactly the same roadblocks.
Contract 2010 anyone?:mad:

[busdriver007]

Capt K,
You can still get your backpay if you choose.....at 3%. I am quite comfortable that we are being asked...BTW didn't we get told EBA 7 +3+3 wasn't available and now it is...Who was telling the truth? EBA 8 was voted down wasn't it or was I mistaken. The best time to get a deal across the line came and went. Who's fault was that?:confused:

[max autobrakes]

The company stooges who torpedoed it on QrewRoom?

[tony_8]

What is the new union doing downunder? The silence, I believe, is deafening. Survey complete ? Any update?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Com meeting to be held tomorrow. Rumour has it one of the agenda items is the survey findings. > 90% return rate:eek:

[tony_8]

Dear CaptCloudBuster,
You seem in the know, what happened at the meeting?
Thank you.

[Skypatrol]

Some of you guys are unbelievable.

What did the ARG achieve in their time in power besides endless court cases with a win-loss ratio that make Souths look good, an EBA overwhelmingly voted down (negotiated by the man who turned jetstar away, yet another masterstroke) and were trusted as much as management??? Oh and I'm not a 400 capt either....

Time for a change and the tribe has spoken! Accept it!

[CaptCloudbuster]

T8 - AIPA insights in your inbox tonight

[Bazzamundi]

Skypatrol, at least the ARG stood up and threw punches back at the company unlike the mob before them who just asked for the lube and bent over.

The pre-ARG bitter and twisted persons who have made Qroom unreadable now with their endless and bitter hijacking of every thread have a short memory. What did we achieve in their term? Significantly less than what the ARG gave us, which on face value is not much. How proud the vocal ones are of the last EBA - Jetstar (agree to this dud deal and we will look after you), Singapore basings, and the disgraceful LOA161.

Rome was not built in a day, and the damage done in previous terms will take a significant amount of time to heal.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Heard from an inside source that we members need to look behind what Team Bazza described briefly in yesterdays insights as a "two way street".

Apparently COM approved a motion prohibiting any further company requested concessions to LH contract until allowances "issue" sorted:ouch:

Three years behind and in certain ports now 80% BEHIND CC:eek:

QF better act quick... doesn't A330 concession LAX expire in Jan 09??

[Bazzamundi]

Love or hate the court cases, at least they were the start of us standing up. If they didn't achieve the desired result, it is good to hear a rumour that the current lot are going to show some backbone and keep trying to fight them. The company does not respond to anything unless it costs them money.

So Cloudbuster, I hope you are correct in what you portray above.

[blow.n.gasket]

A mate of mine on Com who was an ARG supporter has told me he is optimistic that Team Bazza may turn out all right after all.
It appears the gushing rhetoric about "if we only talked nicely to the company" has been found to not be as fruitful a path as Team Bazza thought and some of them have grudgingly agreed that a lot of the avenues WoodenI took, are in fact the only roads left ,go figure.
So I've been told to be patient give 'em a go and allow the new team to bed things down and the outlook doesn't appear to be as bleak as first thought!

[Skypatrol]

Bazzamundi,

"at least the ARG stood up and threw punches back at the company unlike the mob before them who just asked for the lube and bent over."

True, but unfortunately there was no substance behind the punches and that was the problem. It was like watching a violent drunk trying to fight Kostya Tszyu.

I, like most, voted them in hoping for the change they advertised but as it never eventuated, they are now thankfully gone and we can finally move forward as a group.

As for Qroom, well most of the ARG make it as unreadable as much as the others, in fact it's pretty much unreadable anyway......

[blow.n.gasket]

Sky Patrol,
have you actually looked at industrial laws and other ancillary legislation that underpins all that controls the ebb and flow of industrial relations?
Obviously not!
As "Team Bazza " are now finding, in order to work within the industrial framework one is hamstrung in what is legally available as far as industrial leverage is concerned !
At least, from what I have seen ,the ARG had the cajones to actually do whatever was possible at the time.
Time will tell if what they did was right or not.

[What The]

Hasn't time spoken? Are any of the ARG still on the Executive?

[struggling]

Whatever Ya Name Is

The long haul tribe are expecting good things from Team Bazza and everyone hopes their polite approach to Qantas will pay off. But you and your mates continual knocking of the ARG has set Bazza’s bar quite high and the some of the tribe are being to worry that the Bazza's team hasn’t got enough ticker and won’t be able to deliver anything much either.

On the other hand, have it on good authority that remnants of the ARG Team has put an EBA proposal to Bazza’s EBA negotiators asking them to agree an EBA before Christmas that-
· continues the terms and conditions of LHEBA 7 to the end of 2009
· increases hourly rates by 3% pa
· builds pilot ownership in Qantas by accepting shares in the company when CPI exceeds 3%
· fixes the long haul allowance fiasco
· has the company agree to giving all Qantas group pilots a mainline seniority number:ok:

Would be a great Christmas present and shouldn't be difficult for Bazza and the boys to get Team Qantas to agree.

[What The]

· continues the terms and conditions of LHEBA 7 to the end of 2009
(That's no biggy)

· increases hourly rates by 3% pa
(a 3% payrise is what the company has offered to all employee groups so again no biggy)

· builds pilot ownership in Qantas by accepting shares in the company when CPI exceeds 3%
(That may slow things down a bit due to the issues associated with dilution of shareholdings etc.)

· fixes the long haul allowance fiasco
(Good idea, may require a tradeoff however)

· has the company agree to giving all Qantas group pilots a mainline seniority numberhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
(The GOAL. Bingo, you just killed the deal. No chance of this being agreed to in any time frame prior to December 2009)


This proposal is very simplistic and not really an ARG initiative. Anyone could come up with this on a bar coaster (indeed a number have around the traps). Except the ever elusive GOAL.

It really begs the question, why wasn't this the negotiated position when the ARG was in power instead of attempting to rewrite the book? 76% NO vote shows how out of touch they were with the members.

[Don Diego]

The GOAL is nothing more than a ruse by AIPA to get Qlink Dash pilots to join up.The former pres never actually stated how AIPA was going bring home the bacon,rather,just join and see what happens??:ugh:

[Gingerbread]

Now's the time for a GOAL.

Qantas and BA are flirting & the government is rewriting the commercial rules of aviation and the Qantas Sale Act.

Surely AIPA can find good reason amongst all that's going on to get up and EBA that would be good for mainline S/O's and F/O's and the rest of the Qantas pilot group.

Come on Guys - kick a GOAL and show us all that new AIPA is more than just ARG talk.

Might just make Bazza a hero in his own time.

[Keg]

It really begs the question, why wasn't this the negotiated position when the ARG was in power instead of attempting to rewrite the book? 76% NO vote shows how out of touch they were with the members.

A 'no' vote does not necessarily constitute a philosophical difference about many of the proposed items in EBA8. Many (myself included) are quite prepared to accept many of the philosophical points raised in EBA8. Many (myself included) voted no despite those agreements on the basis of it the deal not being good enough. This should not be interpreted as not agreeing with a re-write or disagreeing with some aspects of the proposed EBA. In fact, your point made in the quote above is intellectually dishonest.

[tony_8]

3 % You are joking?
Team Bazza might as well give up if thats all they can do!
My local Asian Fish Wife could do better, in fact she did. Her prices went up at least 30% in the last 3 years.

[Keg]

It's not 3%. I happened to have a quick 5 minute chat with Barry a week or so ago. The ask is more. Whether we get it depends on how hard we're prepared to negotiate.

[Don Diego]

Well it appears the venerable Keg has no idea how AIPA intends to implement the GOAL so I guess it over to team Bazza for some new spin:=

['holic]

Keg probably hasn't bothered replying as GOAL has been explained mulitple times on other threads. It's a simple concept, do a search.
The only thing that has to be implemented is getting the company to agree to it.

[max autobrakes]

Right the GOAL concept must be crap if the ARG pushed it!:ooh:
Is that why the promotional limitations were introduced into the now defunct EBA8 in order to limit the company's exposure through increased training costs reference the GOAL.Would GOAL have had a chance if EBA 8
was now in place?
By the way ,how many other airlines use a similar concept?:ugh:

[blow.n.gasket]

What The wrote:
Hasn't time spoken? Are any of the ARG still on the Executive?

This time you are refering to is?
The Com, 40 people?
Team Bazza played a politically crafty game, they only had to convince a minimum of 21+ people on Com in order to take control of the executive.
ARG , the dumb f@&ks had to convince 1200+ people to vote for them through a general election .
A couple of times too wasn't it ?
Then again the tribe has spoken!
I wonder what the tribe is going to say next when they find out the" softly softly" approach doesn't work either?:eek:

[Don Diego]

Holic,if you you read my last two posts you will see that I am not asking for an explanation of the GOAL rather how they(AIPA) intend to implement it.I,and others,have been asking this question since the idea put to us by the then president(RH) and to date still have no plausible answer.If Keg did have an answer I am sure we would have seen it long ago.:rolleyes:

['holic]

DD,
Not really sure what you're getting at. It's either implemented ... or it's not implemented. :rolleyes: If you have to ask the question, you probably don't understand the concept.

Anyway, GOAL has been and gone. I'm not going to hijack this thread, if you feel the need to discuss it, start a new one :ok:

[Lusty Blows]

The extreme naivety of both the new AIPA team and Qantas pilots in general is becoming evident.
Team Bazza was elected in the main because they felt that a spirit of "niceness" with the Company was needed, and the more combative approach of IW was holding AIPA back. Many rank and file QF pilots also agreed with this view.
Well guess what? Nothing has changed with the attitude of the Company.
BJ went to Senior managment very early on to "ask" about the allowance situation and the MOU and the rollover of the EBA. I am sure the knock-back he got was very politely delivered as well. The story going around is that the new President took this very badly and rang around most of the COM, (except the former Executive), told them what had happened and wanted to know if anyone had any ideas?!!?:eek:
Nothing will change unless QF pilots and AIPA negotiate with some spine. You will get nothing out of QF on the basis that "we deserve it!"
Maybe some of the people who took to IW with such a vengeance should be offering an apology.
Grow some cojones AIPA and QF guys! The Engineers showed how to do it. Learn from their example.

[Don Diego]

Holic,we all know it is not implemented and we also know that is because Q opposes it vehemently and AIPA is unable to change that.As I stated previously it is all just chicanery.:hmm:

[Gingerbread]

Be patient Lusty. Pruners need to give Bizza’s team enough time to work their “softly softly" magic with the Lepracorn..

If Bizza can't get an EBA up by next committee election, I have it on good authority that the ARG’s leaders to intend to run another ticket to win back control of the COM.:eek:

If the number of people wanting to get an EBA up before the economy implodes is growing as fast as bar talk suggests and Struggling’s view that the ARG has been promoting:
· continuing LHEBA 7 to the end of 2009· increasing hourly rates by 3% pa back dated to 2006· building pilot ownership in Qantas by accepting shares in the company when CPI exceeds 3%· fixing the long haul allowance fiasco and having the company agree to giving all Qantas group pilots a mainline seniority number.

Comes to pass

It may well mean that El Presidente can pull off a repeat of little Johnnies lazurith with a triple bypass stunt...:mad:

[Keg]

Sorry, any pay increase that doesn't include 5% in it for the last two years isn't getting a 'yes' from me unless the 'ownership' compensates well above and beyond that figure.

[busdriver007]

Sounds like Lusty Blows is having some lusty swigs of some Christmas cheer....:bored:

[Capt Kremin]

I heard the same story about the ring-around from a COM member. Not good. Are they out of ideas already?:uhoh:

I doubt the ARG resurgency story though.

[max autobrakes]

Run out of ideas already!
Maybe you could get Comm members to buy beers for the boys whilst on a slip as a potential source/inducement of new ideas!

[busdriver007]

At least I am being asked this time......better than getting something thrust upon me. If we are ever going to change EVERYONE must be brought along for the ride......not just a select few.

[struggling]

Seems that Lusty's belief that Gingerbeer's have more spine and bigger cojones than the kangaroo's flight crew has suddenly got a ring of truth about it.

Gemma Daley at Bloomberg say: Qantas Airways Ltd has agreed to an average pay rise of 16 percent over four years for maintenance workers, who this year forced delays during an industrial campaign over wages, the Australian Financial Review said.

Qantas, in a bid to avoid further industrial action, will also increase staff retirement benefits to 10 percent from 9 percent, the newspaper said, citing Australian Manufacturing Workers Union national secretaryDave Oliver.

Some 1,500 maintenance workers will vote on the agreement, expected to be finalized mid-January after being recommended by union negotiators, the Review said.


Is time for Bizza and the boys to cut a deal.

But as Ked said "any pay increase that doesn't include 5% in it for the last two years isn't likely to get a yes...unless of course Ginger's idea of 'ownership' compensates well above and beyond that figure." :ok:

[max autobrakes]

Or the company could just turn around and say "get stuffed we 'aint giving you anything"! Knowing full well that the pilots would never pull together like the engineers did. Combine that with the ever increasing numbers of workers being laid off around Australia and the heart rendering media campaign that could be waged if those overpaid prima donna pilots went on an industrial campaign would play into the comany's marginalisation plans nicely.
At least Qantas pilots would then be narrowing the wage gap on Jetstar.:{

[tony_8]

Company Executives just received the latest copy of insights :D They were overjoyed by the strength of team Bazza's terse response to no progress in EBA negotiations. Time for an SGM to get rid of the lot and start again :ugh:me thinks!

[max autobrakes]

What's wrong with just trying to negotiate a few of the more contentious aspects of EBA8 out and just get on with life?:hmm:

[Keg]

This is just QF argy bargy trying to put the new President under the pump to see how he (and the rest of us) will react. The QF action about time relief for the exec should make clear the QF intentions and the continued stalling of progressing an EBA should also be a good indicator of the way that QF intends on playing this game.

Time will tell as to how 'we' respond. Either way, this president (as with the last) has my support in getting a good outcome.

[max autobrakes]

Well the honeymoon didn't last too long did it!
Welcome to the real world Team Bazza.
PS how's "the EBA will be finalised by Christmas" going?
Was that Christmas 2009 perchance?


Steve Creedy, Aviation writer | January 02, 2009

Article from: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/)
QANTAS is considering axing its loss-making Sydney-Mumbai service after a disagreement with its pilots' union over meal allowances.
The airline will be forced to divert today's flight through Melbourne after the Australian and International Pilots Association refused to renew a concession that allows pilots to fly beyond hours outlined in their enterprise agreement.
The concession's end on Wednesday means Qantas must now change crews in Melbourne before continuing on to Mumbai instead of flying non-stop from Sydney.
However, an airline source said this would increase losses on the route and was likely to be the final straw for the service.
This could also mean new Airbus A330s slated for Qantas's mainline operations could now be sent to Jetstar and that would mean less flying for Qantas A330 pilots.
The A330 concession had been allowed to continue despite the overwhelming rejection in a pilot vote last year of a new enterprise agreement.
AIPA said pilot dissatisfaction had increased since then because meal allowances had not been updated for three years and were now significantly lower than those received by cabin crew.
Before Christmas, AIPA's executive committee decided it would not grant further concessions until the meal allowance issue was resolved.
But Qantas thinks the issue should be included in wider EBA talks.
AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said Qantas did not help its case by waiting until the last minute before asking for an extension to the concession.
He said the airline had been told the extension for the A330s was coming up but had done nothing until the Airbus fleet manager wrote to the union on Tuesday.
"We couldn't do anything about it on such short notice and we had a committee meeting in December which decided we would give the company no more concessions against our contract until the allowances were brought up to parity with the cabin crew," he said.
Mr Woodward accused Qantas of using the allowance disagreement as a smokescreen for other reasons for pulling out of Mumbai.
Qantas began flying to Mumbai in 2004 and the service gained notoriety in 2006 when British actor Ralph Fiennes and flight attendant Lisa Robertson had sex in an A330 toilet.
It began operating the route using an A330-300 with a stopover in Darwin but moved to a non-stop service using a smaller A330-200 in an attempt to stem losses believed at that stage to be more than $20 million a year.

[Transition Layer]

max autobrakes

What solution would you offer?

Seeing that article brought a big smile to my face and tells me the new team at AIPA have their heads screwed on the right way.

"But Qantas thinks the issue should be included in wider EBA talks".

The allowance matter is getting beyond a joke and if the company wants it to be sorted out in a new EBA (whenever that may be), then so should the Mumbai operation on the A330. Until then, it's back to working under the rules of EBA7.

:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

TL, the old team at AIPA offered the same solution early last year and got shouted down. Did they have their heads screwed on straight as well?Maybe this time around the rank and file can see past their own noses?

[Transition Layer]

Capt,

As I'm not an A330 pilot so I can't make a completely informed comment, but when the idea of LAX and BOM ops with 4 crew was first brought up in late 2007, the 330 drivers were coming off a period of very low divisors, forced leave etc and were understandably very keen to get their hands on some more flying.

Not only that, but the pilot body in general saw the allowance issue potentially being resolved in the upcoming EBA8. Whilst the failed EBA did go some way to addressing the allowance issue, it did so in tandem with plenty of negatives and as we all know, got voted down in a big way.

This time around, I think it's fair to say everyone is a little more pissed off - "give a little, get a little" comes to mind, but there's not much "getting" going on!

[blow.n.gasket]

I think Kremin hit the nail on the head.
This all smacks very much of some sort of campaign to oust the previous mob. Why? Much of what WoodI did and was doing continues, it has to ,because it's a very narrow path industrialy one is allowed to tread nowdays.
It seems no matter what the previous mob did there was the peanut gallery chorus ready to spray bile. Sling enough mud some will stick, eh?
Team Bazza found they couldn't get rid of WoodI in a general election and very cleverly, through what would appear to have been a wide spread negativity campaign (very much in the same vein as modern day American electioneering )convinced ,or at least cast enough doubt in the minds of enough on Comm to go with change.The rest is history.

Let's just get on with it 'cos I'm waiting for my long over due pay rise, which I'd like to get before those blunts in Management roll out their next nimrod inspired plans to downsize Qantas and right size JetStar.

[Capt Kremin]

TL, granted, but they would have gotten the flying anyway. AIPA just needed to hold its nerve. As has been pointed out elsewhere, J* Intl was never going to get that flying with the fleet size they have. The threat at the moment is empty yet people continue to fall for it.
As for the report in the Australian, even if QF pull out of Mumbai, can anyone seriously tell me that QF are going to let 2 brand new A330-200s sit around doing nothing just to teach mainline A330 pilots a lesson about rocking the boat?
Give me a break. They will deploy the aircraft on other routes and there will be no flying lost.

[Don Diego]

Captain K,prior to being deployed on those other routes they will be given a fresh coat of J* paint.

[Capt Kremin]

Care to wager a slab of Crownies on that? Not a chance that will happen.

[Brutus]

Captain K,prior to being deployed on those other routes they will be given a fresh coat of J* paint.

Let 'em. If QF Exco want J* operating a particular route then that is what will happen. The old ruse of "If you don't bend to our will then this other mob will get the flying instead" is hackneyed, trite, worn out, banal drivel. It scared J* into accepting a massively inferior package to fly the A330 when they were always going to get it.

I'm heartily sick of all the threats we live under. We either get the flying or we don't and I'm happy to live with it either way.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

QF to pull out of BOM because the greedy pilots want the same allowance that the guys and girls down the back get. That may be the straw that breaks the camels back. Are they serious? The profitabilty of a route is based on 4 blokes allowances.
****, we are in serious trouble.

Also for you Qrewroom readers. Have been told WK(the ex deputy cheif pilot) has been hired by the company as a HR consultant. He tells everyone on this website that he doesn't care, I'm retired, Blah, Blah. Total bull**** artist.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Rumour has it the AIPA concession to fly A330's to LAX expires this month also:eek:

Wonder if Jetstar will be redeployed to this route also:}

Pretty soon at this rate no QF pilot will have a job:bored: Good thing EBA 7 contains all that pesky redundancy provisions - that will cost Charlie Q a SH*%LOAD:{

[Just Relaxin]

You can also throw into the equation that the approval to operate the A380 expires at the end of the initial 3 month period which occurrs on 19th January. At that time the aircraft is parked against the fence until such time as the pay and conditions are agreed (supposing the pilots show some solidarity and agree not to fly it). Admittedly it will be a pretty big fence as QF now has 3 of the shiny new jets.

I guess J* will also start operating the 380 then as well - gee they sure are going to be busy!!

I also suspect that Oldmeadow is possibly facing a last throw of the industrial dice as if QF cave now on allowances to keep their a/c flying, having been belligerent for 3 years, it will come as a big capitulation and empower the pilots. Not a scenario that Oldmeadow would like to face. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!!

[blow.n.gasket]

Bring it on .
Spoken to a few on Comm and I am glad to say it appears Team Bazza may have some balls after all, thank god.

How does that redundancy provision work again?
Isn't EBA7 pre WorkChoices? Therefore no Operational Redundancy Provisions? This sounds very expensive for management if they think they are going to get an easy Down sizing of Qantas and a cheap right sizing of JetStar.

All I can add is don't fall for some cheap carrot dangling exercise from management to try and get the pilots to do a dirty roll over of EBA7 and then be subjected to WorkChoices legislation .

[Keg]

I guess J* will also start operating the 380 then as well - gee they sure are going to be busy!!

According to some of the J* contributors on the forum they were going to be operating it initially anyway!

[noip]

Given the proven operating non-econonomics of the A380, I doubt JStar will be interested in it. A -400 is more efficient.

N

[Capt Kremin]

The Company just caved on the BOM directs/allowance issue according to a SMS I just got. Well done AIPA. Pity we didn't do this 2 years ago....

[dragon man]

Yes Cpt Kremin correct. Isnt it wonderfull to have a win. Well done to BJ. Its great to see the bullys blink. Its just great news. :ok:

[MrWooby]

Instead of "The company caved in" or "we've had a win", I would like to think that this shows a moderating in both parties behavior. AIPA has shown some guts but have moved away from the litigation path, and Qantas has stepped away from the confrontation at all costs attitude. Frankly, Qantas's attitude was really pissing me off, QF expect the highest ethical standards from its crew but show little in industrial ethics. Hopefully a way forward for the hard times ahead.

[Capt Kremin]

Yes, yes yes you are correct. A great leap forward in relations between AIPA and the Company.. statemanship shown by all.... blah blah blah

(But they F^%$&*g caved!!):):):ok:

Ask Barry about the phone call he got from senior management a few days ago if you don't believe me....

[Keg]

So given the great thawing in relations between QF and it's pilots I'm guessing an EBA8 of 5+5+5 and a 10% bonus back paid for the last couple of years is only weeks away?!?! :}

Good to see QF seeing the sense in this one.

[What The]

Ask Barry about the phone call he got from senior management a few days ago if you don't believe me....

Yeah, that should further relations. If Barry indeed discussed this with you and painted the picture that there was a "cave in" as you put it then God help Qantas pilots.

Go and read "Seven Habits" and in particular the section about "win-win". Then you'll understand what a negotiation is really about.

Well done to the new AIPA team, but for God's sake, don't gloat. All it does is make the opposition more determined to win next time.

[max autobrakes]

MrWooby wrote :"The company caved in" or "we've had a win", I would like to think that this shows a moderating in both parties behavior

Sure Mr Wooby,
A moderating in both parties behavior but what came first "the chicken or the egg?"
Who started down this road of systematic marginalisation first?
Here's a hint ,it wasn't AIPA!

[What The]

systematic marginalisation?

You can spend your life as a conspiracy theorist or realise that the fundamental basis to any negotiation is the underlying relationship. If you come in all guns blazing like Yosemite Sam there's a fair chance you're going to get the same in return.

Why can't you guys be happy?

You've had a return to the system whereby you get the same allowances as the cabin crew after 3 years in the wilderness due to the ARG taking Qantas to court on the issue of "First Class Accommodation". As someone who knows once said "Don't pick the fight if you don't know the outcome".

[Capt Kremin]

What the.... you just gave yourself away.

And who says we aren't happy?

[Jetsbest]

Disappointed in your supposed quote there Kremin. This is a good outcome but it would have been so much better, and easier, if Qantas had not allowed it to become the festering issue it did. I hope it's a portent of things to come.

I would also hope that probable "off-the-record" or "behind-closed-doors" statements, if even only partly true, might remain that way in order to better continue what might be an improving trend in dealings between AIPA and QF.

In my observation mistrust of QF management is still very pronounced. Much more needs to be done if Joyce's tenure is to get the best from employees as opposed to the caustic propensity to denigrate staff under the previous administration. This sort of 'turn-around' might just be the first step.

I'm prepared to look for more reasons to be optimitsic. EBA8v2 will be a telling chapter. Please consider sanitizing your post.

ps, I did call B. :ok:


And What The; "3 years in the wilderness" was all ARG's fault? And here was I thinking that a whole AIPA committee felt that the AIRC/court were the only remaining options when QF unilaterally decided to vary past-precedent interpretations of "first class", allowance reviews, grievance resolution, time relief for AIPA reps etc as it flatly refused to negotiate. Odd. :hmm:

[Capt Kremin]

I didn't quote Barry and haven't talked to him about this.
But if you think this was the QF preferred outcome, sorry.

[max autobrakes]

What The ,to use an oft' used phrase "What The".
Wayne, I believe the Dixon led management team started down this road of marginalisation of all unionised workers in Qantas well before the ARG came to power.
From what I saw, the ARG were purely a manifestation of the latent frustrations rank and file pilots were feeling.
Like I said "what came first ,the chicken or the egg?"

Wouldn't be a case either, of "look ,that is what happens" if you try to rise above your position, that we in Management have ordained for you.
You pilots need to be taught your place, and then you will find life will be much easier (untill the full business plan has been unveiled?)
See how much easier life is already!
Time will tell.

[blow.n.gasket]

Any word yet on the EBA????
Bueller, Bueller?

[blow.n.gasket]

Also, any truth to the rumour that Team Bazza are now systematically sacking office staff that were seen to be aligned with the previous president?
What was all that malarky about honesty and transparency,communication and accountability, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

PS were's our pay rise please.
PPS any chance of an overall cost analysis of EBA8 vs EBA7 rollover,
I'd hate to think we were all hoodwinked by the anti WoodI team.

[Unphased]

Right on Blown

AIPA's GM has been declared redundant,
El Presidentie has been :mad: over,
Bazzy is but a talking head,
the COM has swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker,
shades of deja vu.Looks like you blokes blew the last chance you are ever going to get. If you pilots want to keep living in Australia, best you and your mates go back to school and get a trade as an engineer.:ouch:

[struggling]

Spoke with El Presidentie today and what Blown and Unphased have said is all too true.

Talk about wasted opportunity. AIPA is again back in the hands of the wets.

What a stuff up - no stress, no strain, no pain and no future.

Well done AIPA. :ugh:

[What The]

Well, there will be an EBA to vote on soon.

Let's just see if the vote goes better than 76% against.

[SkyScanner]

Looks like you blokes blew the last chance you are ever going to get. If you pilots want to keep living in Australia, best you and your mates go back to school and get a trade as an engineer.

What was so wrong with the new EBA?

Any chance of a cost analysis between EBA 8 and EBA 7 rollover?

A cost analysis on EBA 8 was never done

[Nunc]

How about enlightening us all on the contents of this new EBA. As to office staff leaving well I am sure it will not be as messy as when your ARG mates took over. It is so easy to sit on the side and s#%t stir.

The EBA is all but done by all accounts, let's just wait and see what is in it. Given the last one went down big time I doubt it will not be any worse.

[funbags]

re GM and office staff going, fantastic! :D :ok:

When the EBA comes out, I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised.

[Going Boeing]

I agree with funbags. The GM has to go as his performance is below par and he is certainly not as good as his predecessor.

The EBA7 rollover looks like a good deal with minimal offsets for a reasonable payrise. I believe that it will get up with a strong majority.

Most of the detractors of Team Bazza are obviously infatuated with his predecessor and are unwilling to let him have time to "get the runs on the board".

[Keg]

The GM 'going' may or may not be a bad thing. It depends on what the strategic plan is going to be beyond that.

Personally I was glad that AIPA started to get some strategic direction and engagement with Canberra and the wider IR movement over the last few years. I'd be bitterly disappointed if with the GM's departure that we once again became the insular, narrow minded organisation we were when we missed out in getting a seat at the table for the J* discussions.

Time will tell.

Reeltime. Start the thread and I'm sure people will comment. It ain't there at the moment.

[Capt Kremin]

Guys, the GM is going and discussing the situation on a public forum such as this is neither fair nor reasonable. No one here would like to be in that situation.

I agree; hash it out on Qrewroom.

[max autobrakes]

What next from the AIPA executive?
All we need to hear now is announcement of re-employment of THAT lawyer and to complete the full circle all that is needed is a Holt back on Com, then the Company will truely be pleased with itself by having their stooges erasing the last vestiges of resistance.
Back to the way AIPA should be ,nothing more than a sub branch of Flight Ops that only acts as an Industrial bargaing agent .
Ahh all is once again peaceful in the Qantas Flight ops world until???.:\

[blow.n.gasket]

SkyScanner Quote:

A cost analysis on EBA 8 was never done


So SkyScanner a cost analysis on EBA8 was never done.
I would have thought that the Company at least would have done costings on such an important agreement!
So you mean to tell us that nobody had any idea what EBA8 was going to cost Qantas, yet management had finished negotiating the document which allowed the vote to be taken on said agreement.
I wonder if the shareholders and ASIC for that matter would be interested in such managerial incompetence!:eek:
Can't wait to see what EBA7 rollover has to offer.
What's the bet it will be nothing more than 3%/annum compounding.
If we're lucky you clowns may have even been able to sell enough of the family silverware to gain a token % improvement for a year or two ,but I won't hold my breath.
Can't wait to hear the town crier yelling "Hear ye ,Hear ye, look what we got,ain't we good!, PROBABLY NOT!":{

[Bazzamundi]

Whatever is offered in the next EBA will be voted up due to the substantial amounts of backpay involved. Everyone will be lured by the joy of a big one off bonus payment (read 2 years + worth of 3%).

Even more importantly, the 380 gets a payrise, while I bet all offsets required will cost other fleets.

The chances of a simpler and fairer contract compared to the 60's dinosaur we currently have seem remote now. While many will be happy with this, all S/O's and F/O's should realise that we are just destroying their potential careers by not accepting change. While I voted no to the last EBA, it was in the hope that it would get improved. It seems many were of this same opinion.

[Bazzamundi]

There also seems to be a fair bit of discussion being generated in the bar with regard to LOA161. People are a bit concerned after the last insights that perhaps half the current COM support this dreadful LOA. Many of the membership really dislike this issue, and a majority are not even affected by it.

Personally, I think there is more to the vote (ie. half voted the way they did as they see a better way to resolve it). However, there seems to be a bit of angst from those who don't have the foresight to see it like this.

More communication needed AIPA.

[breakfastburrito]

A cost analysis on EBA 8 was never doneSomeone in the know recently suggested to me that the sequence of events was: Federal Election - QF desperately wanted the Libs to win as they had some alternative contract ready to go. Labor win, QF negotiators now needed to move quickly to wrap things up, essentially accepting the AIPA EBA8 proposal, whilst having it costed.
QF agree to put EBA8 to crew. Costing comes at about $80 million more than current agreement.
What to do? - use the qrewroom stooges & 400 S/O's to sink the EBA on their behalf.
I believe QF were very relieved the EBA went down.

[SkyScanner]

To clarify - AIPA never did a EBA 8 cost analysis.

Bazzamundi - wait and see the document and I bet you will be surprised how simple yet effective the rollover is

[Lusty Blows]

Yes it IS simple and effective..... because it is just a rollover. Very small changes for token pay rises.
My advice is to compare what you'd be earning under the old EBA8 to the new one. Guess what.. for 95% of pilots its LESS. The small percentage who will earn more will be A380 crews... Most of the AIPA Exec and particularly the senior A380 SO's who torpedoed the old EBA 8.
Compare a 12 year A380 SO; we will have some, and their rates compared to 12 year 767 FO's under the other system and the new rates. Very disturbing. If you want a ballpark figure, add 5% to the current 744 rates.

[WoodenEye]

IMHO, the loss of Political and Financial acumen as a result of senior AIPA people being sidelined by this week’s skulduggery has set AIPA back a decade.


Nonetheless, Pruners should expect that any LHEBA put forward by AIPA right now, will be well supported. With the world the way it is, any chickens in it, or not in it, won’t come home to roost until Qantas has repaired its brand and made peace with the Pollies, its Shareholders and its Staff.


And those who believe in time capsules should note and file the following:


· Should promotional opportunity for Mainliners to move from Qantas to Qantas Jetstar and back again not eventuate - mainline S/O’s & F/O’s will take a heavy hit in the years ahead,
· The demise of LHEBA Version 1 - means ‘whole of life real income ‘for Mainliners not yet captains, will be much less than it otherwise would have been,, and
· It is likely that Qantas will demand more flexibility from its pilots than what LHEBA 8 Version 1 offered.


Don’t worry - Be happy - Spare a thought for those who have retired and living on 50% less super. Remember also that in times like these, seniority protects next generation captains from market forces.


Long live the good ship AIPA and all those who sail with her.

[blow.n.gasket]

breakfastburrito Quote:

QF negotiators now needed to move quickly to wrap things up, essentially accepting the AIPA EBA8 proposal, whilst having it costed.
QF agree to put EBA8 to crew. Costing comes at about $80 million more than current agreement.

I believe QF were very relieved the EBA went down.

Thanx Breakfastburrito that all starts to make sense now .
This must be the first time ever that an EBA was voted down first time around and then just whimsically discarded on the pretext that it was bad because 76% ,or what ever ,voted it down.
Excuse me but didn't the ShortHaul vote get an almost identical vote.
Why wasn't IT thrown out???
I expect most guys voted no in order for the negotiators to go back to the company to further negotiation a few sore points,what the troops obviously didn't count on was the executive election that saw Barry Holt win office in the interim and toss out the EBA once he was in power and able to do the bidding of his masters. :ooh:

[funbags]

Ian,

Please don't bombard us with your rhetoric here on Pprune.

The EBA was defeated by a huge majority, not one or two people.

A broom was swept through AIPA (just like you did 3 years ago) and personnel move on.

Lets see what happens. If you throw stones from the sideline after you have had your chance, then you will be seen to be no better than the previous crowd.

Move on with your life. You tried, you didn't succeed. But thanks for your contribution.

[Nunc]

Ian, Mike, Geoff et al, thanks for your efforts over the last 3 years or so but as Funbags says a new broom is in office repairing the bridges you lot burnt and sorting out the own goals.

You should be well aware that EBA 7.5 is a filler until a new updated award is negotiated that will have the input from the membership (unlike the EBA you put up). Move on boys, at least the spin has stopped.

[blow.n.gasket]

Ah yes keep dangling the carrot, yet it never get's any closer does it.
What's the odds that there will ever be an EBA9.
Unfortunately EBA8 was not a choice (there's that catch phrase again) betwwen EBA7 and EBA8 as you lot made out. History will I believe, will prove that EBA8 was a choice between it and a contract very similar to JetStar's when the 787's arrive. The future's bright the future is ????? who knows!:confused:
PS nunc reread my previous post and answer if you can,
yes the EBA was voted down but not for the reasons you lot are hanging your hat's on ,just ask the joe average driver.
So if a negative vote of that size demands the whole EBA to get trashed ,why did the shorthaul EBA progress after an almost identically sized NO vote??
Guess what those modifications after renegotiations were enough to achieve a majority yes vote.
Don't you think similar motives were happening this time around again?
As they have for most EBA's of late.

[What The]

Who negotiated the revised EBA 8?

[Unphased]

Get a grip!

If only we all survive,
History will decide,
If WoodenEye had right on his side.

People outside the cockpit recognise that Rome took a long time to build and a lot of us in the trenches reackon that changing the AIPA team was a mistake.

By 2011 we will known if Qantas has remained Australian and will continue to have its maintenance at home.

AIPA has sure taken a lot on its shoulders.

Good luck.

[What The]

a lot of us in the trenches reackon (sic) that changing the AIPA team was a mistake

Rubbish!

The majority of Qantas Pilots IMHO saw the change of AIPA leadership as necessary.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by Lusty Blows
My advice is to compare what you'd be earning under the old EBA8 to the new one. Guess what.. for 95% of pilots its LESS.

You forgot to mention that the higher salary under the old EBA8 would have come as a result of flying more hours per annum which would have slowed down promotion for the majority of pilots which would mean that some would actually earn less because they would remain in their current rank.

The rollover deal sounds very good to me and I think that the majority of pilots will be happy with it.

[Kangaroo Court]

This stuff is better discussed where it's not being read by management.

[max autobrakes]

Where would that be Kanga?
Scawled on the walls of the non- executive dunnies?
Certainly not Qrewroom!:}

[mustafagander]

I suppose you've heard of bars, Max. I can't think of a better place to discuss these sorts of things. :ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

Only if there are girls and dancing poles involved I bet!:ok:

[Keg]

The rollover deal sounds very good to me and I think that the majority of pilots will be happy with it.

The pay rates GB? Yep, they're pretty good and I agree that they alone will ensure that the second half of your statement will hold true.

Other aspects of it like the A380 S/O rates? :eek: My feelings on that particular issue are already on record elsewhere.

[Going Boeing]

Keg, I totally agree with you. I'm in favour of fleet pay for S/O's as per your discussion on Qrewroom. It needs to be resolved with this EBA because once the A380 payrise becomes part of the award, it would be very hard to rectify any of the pay disparities and first day lottery etc.

[Capt Kremin]

Well let COM know your views then. I have.

[Keg]

Kremin's right GB. Please pass on the exact words you used to COM because the discussions I've had thus far have gone nowhere fast.

I've just finished drafting a letter to all 767 crews. It'll hit the email in the morning.

[Nunc]

While I agree with your sentiments Tony, why have you left it to the 11th hour of an EBA negotiation hour to start your publicity campaign.

[Keg]

Hey Nunc, because I didn't know until the 11th hour that it was being proposed. I hadn't heard even of the proposed rate until on a trip over the preceding weekend when a few of the guys I was discussing the matter with were quite agitated. I put it down to the normal pub scuttle butt but resolved to put the feelers out. With subsequent tours of duty and some family stuff it took until Friday arvo to confirm it with a COM member. Even then I didn't quite believe it until a different COM member didn't dispute my numbers after the initial post on Friday night.

Anyway, we're already 2 1/4 years late on the EBA. What's another month or so to iron this issue out. :E :ok:

.

[Wingspar]

If the rumours are right I think you should thank the EBA team for negotiating those rates. Use it as the new benchmark.
As for the 76, forget about it. The thing has been around for over twenty years and people are still trying to significantly improve pay and conditions. Usually it's well intentioned new crew and I applaud them for their intent but you've got to be realistic.
The a/c has a finite future and I suggest you look to the future (787). Now concentrate on that so the 76 problems don't resurface 'cause it will be doing domestos as well.
You maybe able to kill two birds with the one stone!

[Nunc]

Spot on Wingspar. For someone who is a spokesman on everything QANTAS old Keg has stayed in the dark on the EBA rollover bit like that other mouth DD. Then it is also clear that on other matters such as LOA161 he is unaware of the broader issues at hand-better call a comm member on that too (I think LOA 161 should go but it is not that simple). Fleet pay for S/O's should be looked at in the next EBA, to say it has to be part of this one is BS.

As you say Tony the EBA is 2 1/4 years old but in the current environment blind Freedy can see that it should be settled sooner that later. Interesting how you raise this Tony after you got your command not before.

[DrD]

Hi Nunc,

I am the "DD" you refer to in your post. This is my first look at and post on PPRUNE - as your post was referred to me by a mate. It will also be my last as I'd rather post under my real name on Qrewroom.

You suggest I have a mouth - I'd call it an opinion, and trying to stick up for the more junior fleets. A position I have held even when on the 744. If you can justify why a S/O on the 744/380 should earn more than an F/O on the 767 (all wide body aircraft on the same contract - so we're comparing apples with apples), then I might listen to you.

Why don't you join in the real discussion on Qrewroom. Much tougher to sit and throw stones from behind a keyboard as an anonymous contributor on PPRUNE. :rolleyes:

[Nunc]

Dave I've said nothing about the pay disparity you refer to- it is wrong but this stage of an EBA is it not the time to fix it. I have had my say on Qroom, pity you were not as vocal when you were on com but it is easier is'nt it to throw stones outside than achieve within. As to your first post on Pprune, utter bs. See ya round I'm going for a fly.

[Keg]

Keg has stayed in the dark on the EBA rollover...

Goodness knows there is SO much information out there about it! :rolleyes: :ugh: I heard about the proposed percentage pay rises the same time as I heard about proposed A380 rates. The percentage pay rises strike me as a good deal. Whether they are enough to over ride my philosophical concerns on other matters will depend on what the deal looks like in totality.

As to the timing of me raising things, the trigger for me was the voting down of EBA8 given that in terms of pay rates at least, the day 1 lottery and to a certain extent the 'value' of F/Os was addressed as part of that deal- it was probably one of the better things about EBA8. (As a side note, Dave and I disagree somewhat on that issue but that's another story). The 'rollover' document does nothing to address these issues but does exacerbate both the day 1 lottery as well as diminishing the value of 767 F/Os. Once I knew about those issues that is where I became quite focused on it. However even prior to that my feedback was to NOT engage in an rollover EBA but to get it right this time. All in all, given that I have argued against the principles behind the day 1 lottery and advocated properly recognising the 'work' done by the 767 for about a decade or so- as a search of my posts on Qrewroom will attest to- I'm not sure you can play the 'command' card in that way. In fact, it appears to be quite misleading. Perhaps a quick read through my 1000+ posts on Qrewroom over the last decade may give some idea as to when I actually became involved in these philosophical issues.

A while back someone took an shot on PPRUNE at Chuck Hennesy. I disagreed (publicly on Qrewroom) with Chuck on many issues but to target him directly on a forum such as this where he isn't known to contribute, on the basis of comments he made in another private forum, was poor form and grossly unfair. By all means debate the crux of his points but leave the personalities out- particularly when those personalities aren't even a part of the PPRUNE community.

Whilst Dave has now chosen to say his part, that same philosophy applies here with respect to Dave. He's not a PPRUNE contributor- up until his one and perhaps only post here (you'll be back Dave ;) )- and he has not made comment on PPRUNE for you to respond to. He's not a public figure in the industry like Dick Smith and nor has he sought to make comment in the wider public forum. For him to be 'named' by his initials behind his back and then knifed by anonymously by being called a 'loudmouth' is just crap. By all means attack his points- which you didn't- and attempt to tear them down to your hearts content but to just call him a loudmouth anonymously on PPRUNE is a low act.

For me on the other hand, go your hardest on PPRUNE. If you want to call me a PPRUNE loudmouth then knock yourself out. Heck, you can even call me a Qrewroom loudmouth. It adds nothing to the debate other than to show your lack of ability to discuss the merits of the issue but at least I'm a regular PPRUNE contributor and I actually have a pretty good chance of spotting the comments and responding. As a related point, whilst many people in QF know who Keg is, not many people in the wider PPRUNE community would know my personal details. I'd very much appreciate it therefore if you did not continue to utilise my christian name on this forum. Whilst it's not a secret- and I seem to recall once signing off a post with my full name on PPRUNE when someone else was playing the 'power' card that they knew who I was- I certainly don't want it 'out there' every day of the week particularly given how the media utilise this forum.

I'm certainly not aware of the all the LOA161 issues- and nor do I intend to be- but I won't go into that on here given that I've already raised my points in Qrewroom.

As to whether S/O fleet pay as part of EBA8 is BS or not, well you've read my posts on Qrewroom. I'm not going to bother repeating myself again here. If you want to have a shot, go for it on Qrewroom.

Wingspar, 'well intentioned new crew'. Does the fact that I've been on the 767 for ten of the last 12 years make me 'new'? Does the fact that I've been advocating the same principles for most of that time mean it's time to let it go? The say forget the 767 and look to the future and then you say that the 787 will be doing domestic as well. Given the 787 is about the same size then do you think that solving the issues raised on Qrewroom will actually do something about addressing the future also? Aren't you being just a tad inconsistent here? Perhaps properly recognising the value of 767 crew- particularly the F/Os of which I am not one so nothing in it there for me- ctually is all about the future.

Catch you boys (or girls) later.

(Now, where is my 'Don't feed the trolls' smiley?!?! :E )

[Wingspar]

Keg, Not talking about you specifically but historically most of these type of discussions have been promoted by 'new crew'. Yes I know you have spent some time on the a/c, so have alot of others. I for one agree totally with your arguments but to get through your ideas you have to look at the bigger picture. Have a look back at all the well intentioned 76 people over the years and see what has been actually achieved. Yeah sure 5.30 and all that is great but at the end of the day the 76 is screwed because it is a domestic a/c on the long haul award. Yep the pay disparity will be accentuated with the new rates but it is not a new problem. Enough band aids and examine cause and effect for there you will find the answer!
It's the award and people have been tickering with it and the 76 from day one. What I said is consistent because all these bandaid solutions over the years have not fixed the problem (cause and effect). The award and nothing short of a rewrite will fix it.
Sorry to digress but I have seen this all before and these discussions come about every few years.
What I will say to you personally is I wish you all the best because you do have good intentions. Even with the best intentions it is hard to think clearly with a bruised forehead!
Cheers

[jaded boiler]

EBA 8 (mark 1) would have given you the 787 at 744 rates of pay.

EBA 8 (mark 2), with the A380 pay premium, will eventually and undoubtedly give you the 787 at something resembling 767 rates, and all but kill the chance of fleet pay at the 744 rate.

EBA 7 has the 744 and A380 at the same pay rate. EBA 8 (mark 2), with an A380 pay premium, is not a "rollover". A true "rollover" EBA would have kept the 744 and A380 at the same rate, giving possible scope in the future for fleet pay at 744 rates.

Many, if not most, younger QF pilots will spend the majority of their careers flying the 787. Consider QF's projected fleet composition.

Bear in mind the effect this will have on total remuneration over a long career, and the implications this will have on defined benefit superannuation final payouts. How much more would you have earned, for example, spending 25 years of your career on 744 rates, as opposed to the now highly likely probability of spending that time on 767 rates?

[noip]

"EBA 8 (mark 1) would have given you the 787 at 744 rates of pay"

Bull****.

Under the (thankfully) trashed EBA8, a newly promoted Captain would get to fly the 787 on 767 pay rates.

(OK, after 7 years in rank he would, however the statement as presented is False).

N

[jaded boiler]

Well what do you reckon you're going to get flying the 787 if EBA 8 (mark 2) gets up?

[noip]

My only point is that what was advertised was false.

EBA 8 was an utter disaster. Even (the then) CP was of the opinion that it was. Thankfully it was voted down.

Make no mistake ... EBA 8 would have been a step backwards ... and a pay drop ...

N

[jaded boiler]

Ok, if the A380 has to have a pay premium to the 744 how about making it just 1%? Give the 767 3-4%, plus fleet pay for S/Os at current 744 rates. Adjust all these figures up by whatever fleet wide percentage pay rise is negotiated.

At least then if the 787 is considered a 767 replacement, a higher benchmark has been set.

[noip]

Despite what you may think ... I believe that the current AIPA (and past) ... are there to do good (as far as they are able).

I just get pissed off at "conspiracy theories" and "the A380 guys look after themselves" ... what complete, unintelligent crap.

:)

N

PS ... the A380 is not in my horoscope ....

[noip]

Jaded,

It takes a lot to upset me .... no rewording for me personally necessary. I'm just annoyed when people assume that because the those who are in office at AIPA are on the top aircraft that they are only concerned with themselves. My experience is that it is so far from the truth ...

My view of the current EBA proposal is that it is a bastard child that has become necessary for both sides. Yes there are some holes that need digging out of, but that is for the next round of negotiations due about 2 minutes after the interim signing.

What is ideal and what must be dealt with are sometimes two separate entities. The standard argument of "the big picture" is mostly abused (mine is a Rembrant, why is the company's from Kindergarten?) however at the moment I'm inclined to go along with Team Bazza to get things sorted at the next gate.

Above all, we just need to remember that history is composed of us blundering from one disaster to the next.


Maybe my lotto number will come up next week ....


:)


N

[blow.n.gasket]

That's of course assuming there will be a "next gate".

[Razor]

Other than rumour when did the CP say/write that EBA 8 was a disaster? Maybe a bit of group think here I reckon.

[blow.n.gasket]

I'd say the CP said it was a disaster only after Qantas got their costings back and worked out how much EBA8 mk1 was going to cost them!:}

[What The]

just over 2% p.a. is the quoted figure

[max autobrakes]

Quoted by whom?:}

[What The]

The horses mouth

[blow.n.gasket]

I think you may have confused ends with that excrement laden statement.

[What The]

Nope, that's the figure quoted by QF at the table.

[cowabunga438]

As you say Tony the EBA is 2 1/4 years old but in the current environment blind Freedy can see that it should be settled sooner that later. Interesting how you raise this Tony after you got your command not before.

What absolute bollocks. Even a short search of old threads on QREWROOM would show that Keg has said similar stuff long before he got his command.

[Captain Peacock]

The CP said to me in the lift at QCC, before the vote was taken, "If you are senior to GD you will vote yes and if you are junior to GD, read the fine print."

Other than rumour when did the CP say/write that EBA 8 was a disaster? Maybe a bit of group think here I reckon.

[Razor]

Captain Peacock - you must have multiple personalities because I have heard the same rumour from about 6 different people who said they heard it also in the same lift at the same time. Must've been pretty squeezy!

I guess this is a rumour network.

If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?

What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!

[max autobrakes]

Or voted like a lot of other EBA's in the past with an opening NO vote to give the EBA Negotiators something to go back with to fix up a few contentious sticking points and ignoring the impending economic conditions.

Then again who cares ,this is all conjecture and ancient history.
I'm sure Team Bazza will dazzle us with their brilliance.

[Captain Peacock]

Razor, when I got into the lift with the CP, nobody else could fit. With my beer gut and his big head meant there wasn't any more room to fit anybody else in.

I think you will find, that that EBA was read and dissected by more people than any other EBA gone before.

Even the new CP candidly said in a few places (various meetings I was attending) that he was surprised at the extent of changes to of our contract that was offered up by AIPA. He wasn't surprised it was voted down , but he was surprised by how much.

Yup, max autobrakes is right, it's old history now, but GD still has his nose out of joint about it and keeps crying on QR. Poor fella. He should just crawl away and let the Bazza team do their job.

Captain Peacock - you must have multiple personalities because I have heard the same rumour from about 6 different people who said they heard it also in the same lift at the same time. Must've been pretty squeezy!

I guess this is a rumour network.

If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?

What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!

[jaded boiler]

The pot of money set aside for the 5% A380 pay premium should be redistributed instead to all pilots, of all ranks on all fleets, based on the present rates in EBA 7. Keep the door open for fleet pay and a better rate for the 787. VOTE NO.

[struggling]

Money aside Jaded, I hear told that AIPA's feather duster - El Presidente is publicly stating:

·Should promotional opportunity for Mainliners to move from Qantas to Qantas Jetstar and back again not eventuate - mainline promotion will take a heavy hit in the years ahead,
·the demise of LHEBA Version 1 - means ‘whole of life real income ‘for Mainliners not yet captains, will be much less than it otherwise would have been, and
·It is likely that Qantas will demand more flexibility from its pilots than what LHEBA 8 Version 1 offered.
Tough call for the membership. But suspect history will be kinder to El Presidente than it will be to Team Bazza. :cool:

[Unphased]

Reckon yaw off track Struggling. Been told that a new LHEBA has been agreed and Team Bazaar have pulled off a miracle. :ok:

[Keg]

Miracle? No.
Good deal? No.
'Adequate' deal for pay rate rises? Yes, but only adequate.
Back pay? Ordinary to poor. Could have done much better. Much smoke and mirrors on this.
Fleet pay deal for S/Os who have no choice of fleet they go to? No.
A fair assessment of the relative value between A380 S/O and 767 F/O? No.

So whilst it will get voted up by a fair margin we're deluding ourselves if we think this is a 'good' deal let alone a 'miracle'. :eek: :rolleyes: :* It's barely even 'adequate' for most crew. For some of us it doesn't address the critical issues.

[Transition Layer]

Keg, if the money is "adequate" and we haven't lost any conditions, then surely it's not a bad deal.

The best bit about it is that once it is in place, negotiations will begin almost immediately for EBA9 (or is it still 8?) and will involve input from crew from the outset.

Surely that's not a bad outcome...then perhaps work can start on fixing things like day one lottery, F/O vs. S/O pay etc.

[justdrinkit!]

Keg,

I have to disagree with the majority of your post. Under the current economic climate and competition from other airlines and comparing T&C's I would say
miracle - yes
good deal - yes

yes there are a few things that need further work but as a whole everything considered I think AIPA have done a good job. People keep jumping up and down about s/o verse f/o pay, yet this is no different to the day one lottery. Some guys get promotion in 18 months and some after 5 years are still to junior for any slot, so why should they be punished for the lottery of their start date.. I am sure most s/o's would swap positions with a 767 f/o. Some guys are starring down the barrel as a very long time as s/o's through no fault of their own so why does everyone want to punish guys just for being s/o's...

People need to stop complaining and being greedy, stop and have look around at the real world and realize how lucky they are and how good they actually have it.....

[Keg]

TL, there is a difference between a 'barely adequate' deal and a 'bad' deal. This is not a bad deal but it's not a 'good' one either. Do the current econimic circumstances change it from adequate to good? Hard to say. I'd say that given the last two years then the deal is still barely adequate.

justdrinkit, we'll have to agree to disagree. This EBA could have been significantly better for S/Os and F/Os with only minor tweaking- but as I've said elsewhere I'm done with that.

People need to stop complaining and being greedy, stop and have look around at the real world and realize how lucky they are and how good they actually have it.....

I'd dispute that anyone is being greedy?!?! :confused: As to the rest of it, you're right. QF drivers earn heaps more than anyone else. Given how good we have it perhaps we should agree to a pay freeze for three or four years. (Note: Hyperbole added to accentuate the point).

[CaptCloudbuster]

Rumour has it that at a recent Flt Crew Briefing Capt T. informed the troops if Charlie Q doesn't make $500 mill profit then goodbye credit rating - hello higher interest payments - goodbye Big White Rat within 5 years:eek:

[Capt Kremin]

Its a rollover EBA. If you look at the pay rises they are pretty much on inflation. People seem to have forgotten that no-one has had a pay rise since the end of 2005, so the percentages look good; that is an illusion however. The average annual inflation rate between 2005 and 2008 was 3.4%. Take that out to mid 2010 when the last increment is due and compound it, I let you do the maths.
Pilots have missed out on 2 1/2 years of interest on that money and Super. (Mind you considering what super has done in the last year.....)

Its not a miracle; my view is that any judgement on this EBA depends on what the Company announces regarding the expansion of Jetstar. My guess is that will happen around one day after the EBA is ratified. Remember they did this with a deliberately "vanilla" EBA 7 in the first place.

Winners:
BLH with MGH to 160.
Anybody on the A380 particularly the S/O's when compared EBA 8 rates.
Any S/O who wins the first day lottery
Access to IRC. AIPA finally erases one of the scourges of the Holt era.

Losers:
Anybody on the 767 compared to EBA 8 rates. A330 not much far behind.
Any S/O who loses the first day lottery.
Any F/O or S/O with plans to take a promotion, as the company resolutely refuses to guarantee anything about the 787 or whatever Qantas orders from now on.

[Keg]

(Mind you considering what super has done in the last year.....)

Lol. Good point. That alone may be enough to offset the decreased back pay from the back ending of the pay rises. :} :ok:

[struggling]

Hang on Krem,

What do you mean by your statement:..company resolutely refuses to guarantee anything about the 787 or whatever Qantas orders from now on..

Hasn't Management given AIPA an assurance that mainline pilots will fly the B787 on LH terms and conditions.

[blow.n.gasket]

Re-read what was written struggling .
The company agrees to negotiate conditions etc blah,blah ,blah.
What if negotiations break down and AIPA and the Company can't come to an agreement on the 787 or whatever new type arrives to replace all the clapped out aircraft in Qantas?
Walk away!
This is nothing but a motherhood agreement that 'aint worth the paper it's printed on and I believe only included to sucker bait a few more yes votes from people who struggle to comprehend , in order to get EBA7/8/? over the line.

Once this EBA is out of the way and any possibility of lawfull retaliation ,you watch ,the real nasty news will start to come out. I wonder how long once the EBA is signed off before the company will be pushing for a pay freeze? There goes that promised pay rise I've been patiently waiting for!
No wonder the company didn't want to back pay on any payrises.

[Beer Baron]

Capt Kremin,

What is the inflation forecast for FY09/10 and FY10/11, I think it will be somewhat below 3.4%, closer to 2%. So 3% per annum and the Aug 2009 increment change should equate to a 'real' pay rise.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

FFS, re the 'robbing other people' it had never been suggested that 767 F/O's got the 5% for the from the 380 S/Os. What was suggested was that the extra money went towards 330 (twin engine S/Os) and propped their rate to 744 rates. This would then provide 'S/O fleet pay'. As the current 380 S/Os on current EBA are being paid 744 rates, they will not be 'robbed' of any money, they will stay one their current rate (with the normal % increase everyone else is getting) 330 S/Os pay comes up and the with that elimination of the day 1 lottery. (Anyone who is on an aircraft long enough to get overtime deserves it, so don't change overtime rules). The only mention of the 767 was that doing this would also mean that the strange situation of an S/O having an hourly rate higher than an F/O would be diminished.

Considering the future of the company aircraft allocation (long haul S/O types) of 20 A380s and 80 odd 787/330/350s, wouldn't it make sense to have S/O fleet pay so that every S/O on the twin aircraft has the same hourly rate as on the four engine aircraft for doing exactly the same job? What we will now have is a few people on the 380 been paid exorbitant amounts of money compared to most people on the long haul twins who will earn significantly less for the same job.

As usual greed wins again and most will lose out in the long run as common sense takes another battering.

[QFinsider]

Once out of a "protected bargaining period" the real gameplan of the
Dixon lite and his new generations of cronies will be plainly evident.........:suspect:

[blueloo]

RE 767 FOs pay - it can't be that hard. A temporary fix just add $5-10/hr to the hourly rate of each yr. It will reduce the margin between 330 FO and 767 FO and fix the disparity b/w S/O and F/O.

Its not a "be all" fix. Its a band aid. Debating the merits of S/O fleet pay can and should be done. Fixing the disparity properly should also be done - but the time involved is long and slow - and everyone has their own barrow of self interest to push. So apply the band aid - like the current EBA proposal - then do some real work to fix the "issues".

[jaded boiler]

Fine, but don't complain when you have 60 odd 787s on 767 pay.

[astroboy55]

No problems...I wont!

FWIW, if anyone is not happy on their 767 pay, I have the backseat of a 400 available for swap. :p

[Wingspar]

If you add overtime into the equation then the 767 rate wouldn't be so bad.
Really isn't the issue overtime?
I bet there would be decent amounts of overtime on the 787 when it finally gets up and going.

[blow.n.gasket]

Are you really that naive wingspar?

Try 767 hourly rate under a Shorthaul/JetStar inspired contract.
There won't be any overtime as you know it, only o'time pay at the hourly rate if you fly above, I'm assuming 75 stick hours a month.
Fantastic!:uhoh:

I can see the slogan now "All Night ,Every Night ,Average pay!":hmm:

[Wingspar]

Blow...
Who said anything about the shorthaul or JQ contract?
This is about overtime applied under the LHCA!

[blow.n.gasket]

Do you really think the 787 (in Qantas colours) will be flown under LongHaul Terms and Conditions.Take a look around and keep dreaming buddy!:eek:

[Wingspar]

Wasn't too long ago that some were saying that the A380 would come in silver and orange and flown under JQ pay and conditions!

NEWSFLASH!!!!!!!!!!

Not only is the thing operated under the LHCA, mainline crew will get paid 5% more than the current highest rate! So what makes you think anything will be different when the 787 turns up?

Sorry to burst your bubble but you brought it up!;)

[CaptCloudbuster]

Not only is the thing operated under the LHCA, mainline crew will get paid 5% more than the current highest rate! So what makes you think anything will be different when the 787 turns up?

I wonder if the top end of our current AIPA COM (mostly being Capt 5 Bars on the 'Eighty) had any influence on the collective will of the organisation to achieve this splendid result for the "membership"?

Will that collective resolve still be evident when push comes to shove regarding the T & C's of the "subordinate" ranks?

Lets see if the "new" relationship between our AIPA leaders and Charlie Q is all they proclaim when we are out of our protective bargaining period wrapped up in the gossamer shroud that is our EBA rollover.

[What The]

Why?

What could happen?

Changes have been announced today and voting on the EBA has not even commenced.

I don't see what the threat of being out of the protected bargaining period is seeing that industrial action can only be sanctioned if it is being taken in support of the log of claims.

What are you really scared of? Be more specific.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Why?

What could happen?

What a blissfully innocent question. Anyone who has worked at Charlie Q over the last decade or so should have a healthy scepticism concerning management motives whenever Boston Consulting lurks in the background.

Changes have been announced today and voting on the EBA has not even commenced.

I didn't see any Pilot redundancies announced today. Rumor has it Oldmeadow proposed some recently though...Should be more than enough apprehension generated to thoroughly ensure a 95% YES vote.


What are you really scared of? Be more specific.

I see a future where for example the B767 fleet is retired, and redundancies are not offered in reverse order, (just ask Virgin [and Kendalls before) Pilots how this works).

I am happy to stand corrected - let's look back in 12 months time and see what transpired.

[What The]

Doesn't the EBA document you are voting on state that redundancies are in reverse order of seniority?

Are you saying that one party to the document could choose to ignore the agreement on this issue?

Wouldn't there be a problem with that?

P.S. I'm not naive, I just don't jump at shadows.:cool:

[blow.n.gasket]

What The,
EBA7/&1/2 is pre WorkChoices legislation. Have a look at the Workplace Relations Act 1996 the Act which empowers this agreement. The same act that empowered the Kendalls Pilots agreement.
When Kendalls got rid of the CRJ did the junior pilots on the Saab get the axe and the more senior pilots on the CRJ get retrained onto the Saab?
Do you still feel empowered? I wonder if the company could use that court action as legal precedence when it comes time to axing the 767 and replacing it with the 787?
Is that why the 787 is being introduced into JetStars first ,in order to establish a contractual precedence? What happens to all the surplus 767 pilots axed out of seniority which apparently is legal under the Workplace Relations Act 1996 as proven with Kendalls?
The company fires and then turns around and says 'Here's a job if you want it ,and these are the terms and conditions" What's the bet they ain't offered the LHCA to fly the 787.

Wingspar I think you will find the a380 was introduced under EBA7 terms and conditions because of a contractual obligation under EBA6 ,I think it was. No such clause exists in the rollover document ,only a motherhood statement that is about as useless as the paper it's written on.
Who's bubble has sprung a leak now?

I wonder if EBA8 had of got up ,you know the one that was written to comply with post WorkChoices Legislation ,would we have beeen any safer in the event of a massive downturn when it comes to enforcing seniority.
I wonder if this had anything to do with certain company oriented individuals motives with regards to that EBA?

PS I know for a fact a mate of mine on Com has raised these questions because I put him onto it. I wonder why Team Bazza aren't interested in getting any legal opinion on this very contentious question?
Probably don't want to muddy the waters whilst the EBA vote is still open, can't afford to miss out on that 5% pay rise on the BlundaBus can we.

[Wingspar]

Blow
I agree the letter from the company regarding the 787 is worthless.
A similar clause similar to that in EBA7 is required.
My bubble's still inflated though.

[Hugh Jarse]

What the,

forget your reverse seniority scenario, as blow.n. wrote. The precedent has been set. VB are reducing crew on the Boeing only. QF will mount the same argument in the IRC as KD did almost 10 years ago, and most likely win.

Blow.n is more articulate than I. My belief is that basically the IRC will wipe your EBA like a dirty arse if the company can prove that it will suffer irreparable (financial) damage if it were forced to retrench in reverse seniority (along the lines of retraining costs, etc). God, they rejected regional pilots for years on that excuse alone!

I hope I'm wrong. History shows I probably won't be (if you guys push the point into the IRC). I hope QF has the smarts to sort it out with burning up leave etc. rather than redundancies.

Good luck.

[What The]

And 2000+ Qantas pilots are going to sit around and allow that to happen without consequences for Qantas?

If you all truely believe that to be the case then your Certified Agreement is not worth a pinch of poop to start with.

Christ, have some faith or bend over.

It is like the scenario where people agree to pay for their training in order to undercut existing crew operating a current type within the group. Those 767 crew, if cut adrift wouldn't do that.

Would they?

A380/B744 at 300k for a Capt and 200k for an FO wouldn't look to bad.

Grow some balls folks and stop behaving like friggin scared rabbits.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Grow some balls folks and stop behaving like friggin scared rabbits.

We had a union Pres who showed some kahunas and the stooges emasculated them.

Word on the street Team Bazza had to agonise over the simple issue of just saying NO to any further AIPA concessions recently regarding the cut and dried allowances issue - and that was with a UNANIMOUS COM DIRECTIVE!

Doesn't bode well for the future then.

I've been reliably informed the same stooges are itching to scratch the QANTAS SALE ACT CASE currently underway.:=

AIPA members start asking some questions from YOUR COM. The issue as explained to me shows this action is the last remaining negotiating tool remaining:{

[max autobrakes]

Hugh Jarse and Blow'n ,basically correct in your summations except for one important fact, Qantas will not be able to petition the Commissioner until your EBA has expired. Once your EBA is expired it is a fairly easy set of hurdles to cross reference petitioning changes to your contract.
Therefore I believe Qantas pilots will be OK until your next EBA!
Which is due when? 2010? Except due to this economic downturn for the possibility of retrenchments prior . What's your surplus at present 140+ ?

As Capt Cloud Buster has pointed out ,you will need as much industrial leverage as is humanly possible to bolster your position.
The Qantas Sale Act sounds like a good place to start, use it don't lose it.