QF EBA Voted Down

[Yakka]

Just Heard that the LH EBA was vote down by 76% Against, cant believe that there are still 24% that voted for it.

Good job boys

[blueloo]

I think the sky is about to fall in. Duck!


Oh wait a minute....maybe not

[blueloo]

Forgot to add: with 76% No - is it
a) a slap in the face to the company
b) a slap in the face to AIPA and those who chose not to ask the members what they wanted (some AIPA reps did not agree with whole EBA process)
c) both a and b
d) something else.....(ie a and b above is to harsh)

[Doctor Smith]

The voting for Long Haul EBA 8 has concluded and AIPA has been advised that 1661 long haul voters have returned the following result:

Yes: 398
No: 1263

Personally I find the outcome to be a surprising result and members are hereby informed that an Extraordinary Committee of Management (COM) meeting has been called for Friday, 26 September. The Extraordinary COM meeting will authorise a membership survey to determine, amongst other things, the membership resolve behind the vote and soon thereafter a Special General Meeting (SGM) will be held to help determine the best way forward.

On behalf of the membership, I wish to extend my heartfelt thanks to the Long Haul EBA 8 Negotiating Team for the many, many hours of tireless effort put in on behalf of all members.

Rest assured AIPA members will be kept informed about all consultative arrangements put in place and notified well in advance of when the SGM will be held. In the meantime, please continue to operate in the professional manner Qantas flight crew are globally renowned for.

With Regards,

xxxx

[Captain Marvel]

Now, if they only had 866 pilots on AWA's - re-vote - bingo!

[kotoyebe]

So it should only be a matter of minutes before di*kson/joyce pumps up the media campaign crying poor that AIPA have renigged on their "agreement" with the company. "Doom, gloom, oil prices, competiton, union bullies, pilots aren't thinking of our customers, end of the world etc". I can here it already.

[Doctor Smith]

pilots aren't thinking of our customers, end of the world etc


Correction: Share Holders.:ugh:

[Obie]

So, let the games begin! :D:D:D

[DutchRoll]

Admittedly, I'm very surprised at the vote.

I honestly didn't believe we mainline pilots had enough guts to reject a crap EBA. I thought a slim majority would go all wobbly at the knees with the first hint of "If you reject this you'll be struck dead by lightning and burn in hell forever.......etc, etc" coming from QCA and vote in favour.

I stand corrected. Very corrected. (I voted "No", BTW).

[max autobrakes]

Whats the bet the word will come down from the Big Office to have this EBA finalised prior to November.
Why you might ask?
The last thing the departing Qantas executives would want is the share price to dip below $3.64 prior to the maturing of their executive bonus traunch.:}

[VH-JJW]

Here we go again, a totally unrelated thread and some d!ckheads manage to turn out anti Jetstar pilot crap.

With comments like those from Mohikan and Marvel is there any wonder that most JQ pilots are somewhat 'apprehensive' about their Mainline 'brothers'.

[Sonny Hammond]

Apprehensive about their mainline brothers???????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

OMG!! Have you been on another planet?

May I remind JJW that the JQ pilots are the tools of choice for QF Group management to shaft, screw and undermine the mainline pilots.

Who is apprehensive about who?

[Clipped]

it should only be a matter of minutes before di*kson/joyce pumps up the media campaign

Well LAMEs can huff a temporary sigh of relief (our buggery campaign still continues). Some of the pressure can now be directed at you, boys and girls.

Anyhow the QF IR shafting campaign should be alot quicker and cheaper, just substitute 'Pilot' for 'LAME' on ALL documentation.

The results of the initial LAME vote surprised me but should we really be surprised that employees collectively feel like this when our Management have tried their darnest to alient every one of us?

Keep up the good fight.

[Howard Hughes]

I would like to commend the 74% of people who voted NO! I reckon I know who the 26% were, well not personally but I know the sterotype....;)

Although it is really none of my business, can I just say one thing, please don't feather your own retirement nest at the expense of new hirees!

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[blueloo]

The people who I spoke to and said they were voting yes, were incredibly pro company - (as opposed to an even balance) - generally appeared to think that voting yes was the best way of maximising their own personal financial gain irrespective of the cost - to others - and I think some hadn't thought about the lifestyle cost to themselves. As others have alluded to - the yes voters I met appear to be all of a similar character/mindset.

[HPSOV]

Forgot to add: with 76% No - is it
a) a slap in the face to the company
b) a slap in the face to AIPA and those who chose not to ask the members what they wanted (some AIPA reps did not agree with whole EBA process)



A very big (b)

[DutchRoll]

Yes I totally agree with (b).

The company I think will just shrug their shoulders and get on with renegotiating something which fits into their agenda as best as possible.

As for the AIPA leadership: Well, it appears that the position of some of them must surely be untenable now. They were elected on a "promise" and they failed to deliver anything. Then after spruiking how good "their" EBA was, they were bitch-slapped all the way into next week.

[max autobrakes]

Looks like elements of a political campaign were used during this EBA vote to discredit the present hierarchy.
I wonder what will result when the retreads from the Holt era take over?:}

[busdriver007]

Max Autobrakes,
Get a life son......Holt is long gone.....as has his mate Manning. The present Hierarchy in AIPA forgot to talk to the people who pay there dues....It's not the end of the world..cheer up.:)

[mppgf]

Mohikan

I don't know what Rick Heaton has to do with anything as the JPA/G/C has had two glorious leaders since Rick had anything to do with it.
Interestingly 24% of 2500 ? Qantas pilots adds up to more than 100% of Jetstar pilots.:eek:

[max autobrakes]

Well Bus,
Don't let me see you carry on and go looking for a shoulder to cry upon like a little girl when AIPA reinvents itself under "the fence sitter" and nothing of an industrial nature gets done.
There will be lots of feel good rhetoric but little else from a stategic point of view, just like the Holt era.:bored:

[toolish]

mppgf

You can't be serious "two glorious leaders"

[Rabbitwear]

Apparently some overseas pilots of Australian origin have spoken about contracts to fly the A380 for QF , arriving fully rated and ready to fly approximately 10 A380s that will look like QF aircraft but be wet leased by QF from a QF subsiiary yet to be named, Similar to Singapore Mauritius.
Expect a pay cut on your next EBA..............

[max autobrakes]

Is that why JetConnect has been kept on lifesupport?:bored:

[breakfastburrito]

Expect a pay cut on your next EBA.............. Think about the logic of that statement, why would anyone vote for a paycut, when current rates of pay continue in perpetuity? Scope to fly the A380 perhaps? Only a small percentatage of QF pilot will fly it at any one time, no votes there. Scope on the B787? I don't see the QF ever agreeing to that.
Until the pilots are offered a reason to vote yes, business as usual.

Under work choices, an EBA could be unilaterally terminated by the employer (resulting in the minimum pay rates), but things are changing on that front in Canberra.

[DutchRoll]

Looks like elements of a political campaign were used during this EBA vote to discredit the present hierarchy.
Actually, I pay almost no attention to hearsay other than to be mildly amused by most of it, especially when it comes from pilots - one of the most unreliable sources of information on the planet IMHO.

I didn't like the Holt-era either, and voted the "present heirarchy" in based on what they said and implied they were going to do.

My voting intentions in any election are not politically-aligned. They mostly depend on evidence: evidence of results achieved, progress being made, pursuit of constructive policies, making tangible gains, etc. Also those intentions can be affected by the way incumbent leaders or leadership groups present themselves. It didn't bode well for the Holt-era, and none of this bodes well for my next vote on the "present heirarchy" either.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

mppgf said:
Interestingly 24% of 2500 ? Qantas pilots adds up to more than 100% of Jetstar pilots.

This was the Longhaul EBA, Shorthaul pilots were not elligible to vote.

There are appoximately 1800 Longhaul pilots.

1662 voted. One vote was invalid.

398 pilots voted YES. :suspect:

1263 pilots voted NO and good on 'em! :D

[noip]

Rabbitwear ....

The pilots you talk of ( ref the A380) will be welcomed with open arms in Qf .... within the normal seniority system ....

N

[Muff Hunter]

careful, you'll have some of the no voters ringing head office and offering to sign awa's mirroring the voted down eba!!

(you all know who you are,:mad: wits)

[max autobrakes]

Fair call Dutch,
I'm actually in agreement with most of what you write.

I've heard that according to the usual mouthpieces on Qrewroom the present incumbents are totally on the nose and they haven't achieved anything.
Well do as I did, find out for yourself and ring Woodeye up and ask him what he's done for Qantas pilots.
Make sure you've got a bit of time to spare because it will be a real eye opener.
I suppose if we were to compare QANTAS IR policy to a large flowing river ,if you choose to go with the flow, so to speak, life can appear quite cosy, until you round that last bend and you are confronted with a huge waterfall. To late to do anything because you didn't notice the river has picked up speed and no matter how hard you try to swim against the current it's just flowing too fast.
On the other hand whilst the river is still flowing at a moderate speed you choose to do the hard yards and swim against the industrial current. Sure progress won't appear as fast as going with the company endorsed flow, but guess what ,at least you won't be barreling over that waterfall and you might just find those greener pastures up river.

I suppose it is also like that Japanese proverb, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down ".
The usual Qrewroom crowd carry on as though this is a crime. How dare the Union take on the company! We need to engage in more dialogue!
Talk all you like guys for unless what you want is what the Company deems, you can talk for a month of Sundays and all you will end up with is laryngitis.
I suppose that's why AIPA has taken on QANTAS with numberous court actions as a means of gaining that all important industrial leverage which is needed to swim against the Company endorsed current.

[What The]

Max,

As Kearnsy would say, "You are off with the pixies".

[Ngineer]

It will be interesting to see if AJ will support a recruitment drive for "Temp Pilots" during your campaign now that GD has almost finished, and how our new board will respond to this commonly used QF trick.

Best of luck guys, you have our full support.

[blow.n.gasket]

Is he ,What The?
Max actually makes sense to a lot of us mere mortals .
By the way wasn't Kearnsy the trail blazer of the turncoat pack?
Union President one day, management the next!
No man can serve two masters.:ok:

[CaptCloudbuster]

Kearnsey = WALLFLOWER:}

[mppgf]

Toolish,
Google it, Glorious Leader that is.

Bug Smasher Smasher,
That is still a higher number than voted yes for the Jetstar eba.:E

[apache]

ummm... can anyone please post the guts of the EBA here?
ie: %age increase,terms that changed etc.

thanks

[Tempo]

Apache.....if your an AIPA member it is all available on the website.

(hint hint)

[carro]

How long until the next version of EBA 8 comes out to vote on?

[Keg]

Membership to be surveyed.....say about a month.

Negotiators to go back to the company and put the revised demands forward....another month or so.

Costings, etc, posturing, etc, argey bargey....another month or so.

Personally I'd be astounded if we were to vote on a revised offer any time prior to the week or so before Christmas. More than likely we're looking at the new year. That's two years after EBA7 expired.

EBA7++ isn't a solution either. Even with a '5' as the '+' it's not a good solution. All it would do is ensure that we continue to remain industrially irrelevant in the long term plans for the QF group.

[What The]

EBA7++ isn't a solution either. Even with a '5' as the '+' it's not a good solution. All it would do is ensure that we continue to remain industrially irrelevant in the long term plans for the QF group.

Why?

Has this been publically stated by anyone with any real say in the business?

Not just a desperate President trying to sell a rubbish EBA which he now tries to distance himself from and some I.R. people trying to get pilots cheap.

Read the VA thread if you want to see the view of other "professionals" towards pilots. The reality is most are envious of the pilots' position in the company and the fact that they can collectively bargain.

Keg, I implore you, don't fall for the bull**** line that somehow you can overnight become irrelevant. Even if there is massive change there are still aeroplanes to be flown and pilots needed to fly them. Throwing away conditions that have been NEGOTIATED and PAID for over the years on the "promise" of a better future is akin to industrial suicide whilst the Oldmeadows of the world are paid $3m to screw every last cent out of the workers.

The aeroplanes will go where the money is made. The engineers showed that it is commercial lunacy to piss off the people who sign as it would be commercial lunacy to piss off the people who accept and fly.

[Keg]

What the, don't misunderstand my point. I'm no advocate of EBA 8 as proposed. There were some aspects of it which were quite good. There were some aspects that could have been a lot better. There was much misinformation and misunderstanding on Qrewroom and my intent there was to simply point out when people had it woefully wrong. I have indicated on Qrewroom the areas where I felt EBA8 could be tidied up for the mutual benefit of QF and us.

However, 650 pages says we're not competitive and that there is significant room for improvement. I didn't listen to Woodeye to work that out, I've believed that for the last 13 1/2 years and I've got a pretty big network of contacts who fly in lots of different places around the world (and most of them on pretty good coin) and the deals they're on also indicate we're not competitive. I'm certainly not advocating selling the farm for peanuts which IS ultimately what EBA8 tried to do. What I suggest is that we find the ways to become more efficient and with those efficiencies and simplification should come commensurate pay rises and guarantees about career progress onto future replacement and expansion aircraft types.

Many of those advocating EBA7++ have never mentioned the long term important things and I'd be appalled if we took the short sighted view that a couple of 5% pay rises would do OK without getting the long term career issues sorted out.

PS: If you've read this evening's AIPA insights then what is needed is definitely option B.

[What The]

Keg,

a) is achievable whilst b) is a pipedream. EBA 8 as presented is dead. 76% of the pilot body said so.

What do you drop out of the Woods/Duggan proposal to pay for a better combination of terms and conditions, remuneration and career progress.

It was already rejected because it was selling the farm for peanuts....

The amount of tweaking required would make the Magna Carta look like Bananas in Pyjamas.

Any talk of the Woods/Duggan proposal remaining alive is just political spin.

Tie up the last two years of back pay. That gets the money hungry happy as the last two years are in their pocket. So EBA 7 ++.

Now focus on what is acceptable to the pilots and what is sustainable (there's that word) not just what Woods/Duggan think is a fair trade (uncosted) and what Oldmeadow/QF I.R. think they can screw the pilots for.

Work on a mutually agreeable deal (even COM didn't endorse this one, although Woods tells them they did) with real benefits to both parties. If this takes 12 months then who cares (already been back paid for the last two years and on the higher hourly rates now)

I disagree with you. Option B would require so many offsets that it would in no way resemble what was previously tabled and all of the offsets would disadvantage further the pilot group. That's why it's called an offset.

Funny part is that I think this vote became a Money vs Lifestyle choice and would you believe it, the bloody pilots choose lifestyle. Who would have thought?:)

[SkyScanner]

However, 650 pages says we're not competitive

Is this the same 650 page document that contributed to the $1.4 Billion profit last year?

[ligerlover]

Membership to be surveyed.....say about a month.

Negotiators to go back to the company and put the revised demands forward....another month or so.

Costings, etc, posturing, etc, argey bargey....another month or so.

Personally I'd be astounded if we were to vote on a revised offer any time prior to the week or so before Christmas. More than likely we're looking at the new year. That's two years after EBA7 expired.



Member survey? Spare me the pain. I want something done now not a damn survey that will only demonstrate the bleeding obvious. What are the com waiting for haven't they learnt anything from the gingerbeers?

[blow.n.gasket]

Why not try to get a log of claims or such like going prior to the November board meeting.
All those long term vested shares mature then don't they.
Get the share price below the vested cutoff price, wouldn't that be a spiffing parting gift for Geoff from the Qantas pilot body!
I wonder what Geoff would pay to get the EBA signed off in order to keep his million$?
I wonder if management has considered this?:}

[Capt Kremin]

A motion was put to the last COM meeting to start a log of claims and a protected bargaining period, which was rejected by the brave new world of the alternate president and his supporters. Go figure....

[The Mr Fixit]

Is this the same guy that supported the selling off of QF to the equity groups ? and now he's leading an alternative group ? Who supports this path of stupidity ?

Guys and Gals of AIPA, Lodge now for PIA, Send a message home to the company and a shudder down their spine there is no way they will want to enter a second industrial dispute this year as the last one almost killed em

GO FOR IT THE WORLD IS YOUR QYSTER oooops :E OYSTER

[Gingerbread]

Dear Mr Fixit,
Based on the info below which comes from the techies own chat room, it doesn't look like AIPA is planning on going down the path of PIA just yet. Looks to me as if Woodsy is content to keep battling. Do you think his political opponent has got any more balls?
Rgds
Ginger


AIPA Committee of Management Meeting - 26 September 2008

BE IT RESOLVED that the President is directed to propose to Qantas senior management Qantas’ agreeing, inter alia, pay rises nominally effective 31 December 2006/7, and instituting correctly indexed meal allowances effective the annual review date whilst AIPA determines how best to progress a new collective agreement acceptable to AIPA and to Qantas long haul pilots.

For: 16
Against: 18
Abstain: 0

BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Managementdirects the President not to have any discussion with the Company regarding the EBA until the outcome of the Office Bearers Election result is known at the end of October.

For: 10
Against: 17
Abstain: 2

BE IT RESOLVED that the President formulate with Committee of Management approval, a series of questions to be put to the membership and presented by an independent market research company.

For: 29
Against: 0
Abstain: 0

BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Management hereby authorises the establishment of a log of claims to substantiate the filing of a notice of a bargaining period in relation to the current LH EBA negotiations.

For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0

[ligerlover]

Well this is the obvious step.


BE IT RESOLVED that the Committee of Management hereby authorises the establishment of a log of claims to substantiate the filing of a notice of a bargaining period in relation to the current LH EBA negotiations.

For: 12
Against: 20
Abstain: 0



Do the com think that Qantas are just going to walk in and up the offer without us at least pretending to be some sort of a threat? It would be nice to know where the 20 against came from. I thought we removed the airline component from the com a few years back.

[Capt Kremin]

Apparently the alternate President now thinks a notification of a bargaining period is a good idea. Pity he voted against it five days ago.:confused:

[ligerlover]

Who is the alternative President? I thought we had a President. :bored:

[Beer Baron]

Could someone explain what "the filing of a notice of a bargaining period" means? I would have thought that given EBA7 expired nearly 2 years ago and we have been negotiating EBA8 since then that we must already be in a "bargining period". As such I thought we would already be covered by the PIA rules, not that I believe it is at all necessary at this stage.

[Capt Kremin]

No we are not. A bargaining period must be formally filed after a log of claims is submitted. Neither has been formally done.

[busdriver007]

Capt Kremin,
It seems maybe you should have started thinking strategically 2 years ago instead of fart arsing around. We now have to rescue what is a deplorable position. Maybe you should ask your current President the truth about his KB meeting. Truth is hard to come by of late....

[blueloo]

Is there any way via SGM we can vote "el presidentay" off the island?

Given his procrastination and best diversionary tactics displayed at last SGM, surely a well worded motion directing the com to take some sort of action - be it directly or via a little lateral thinking..... can be put together.

[The Mr Fixit]

Guys, each union/association has its own way of dealing with adverse situations, as a participant in the LAMEs struggle I pass on what seemed to work for us.
By the stuff you posted GB it seems as if your present President is trying to instigate a bargaining period for PIA but is being prevented from doing so by your committee of management or a majority of it, is that a reasonable call ?

There is often nothing to fear, except fear itself
Believe in yourselves you can be strong

[ligerlover]

Thank you for the PM and background to the politics within AIPA but I need this answered if anyone can. Who TF stopped the initiation of a bargaining period was it Woods/Duggan or the alternative Jackson/Susz team?

I don't care who wants to be President as long as it isn't the peanut who voted down this resolution to formally notify Qantas that we are serious about resolving our EBA and the current offer just doesn't make the grade. :=

[Gingerbread]

Hard to say Fixit.

Just before Woodsy became "el presidentay" he wrote to all of us saying EBA 7 wasn't good enough but the troops voted for it anyway. This time round he said EBA 8 was OK and the troops voted in down.

Hard to tell if he has lost his balls or his opponents have done a good job castrating him.

Mind you he's crafty and while it looks like he prefers applying the pressure using non industrial tactics, he has a record of taking Qantas head on when it matters.

If it comes to war, he's the only AIPA General I'd ever line up behind but let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Rgds
Ginger

[Capt Kremin]

LL. It was the second team you mentioned that voted the bargaining period down.

[CaptCloudbuster]

I reckon the big boys on the A380 who missed out on their 6% for the good of the majority are the ones now stirring all the $hit.

Wake up everyone and see what's happening...they don't want to return to the bargaining table based on EBA8 style out of pure greed!!

[mustafagander]

"Mind you he's crafty and while it looks like he prefers applying the pressure using non industrial tactics, he has a record of taking Qantas head on when it matters." quote

Gingerbread,

I realise that this is, perhaps, an inappropriate forum to air AIPA's dirty laundry, but in what has Wood-I taken on Charlie Q and won? In fact, when has he seriously taken Charlie Q on?

The now notorious court cases at once spring to mind. You've got to admit that the company was savagely flogged with several limp celery sticks.

[max autobrakes]

LOL wrote:
"Thank you for the PM and background to the politics within AIPA but I need this answered if anyone can. Who TF stopped the initiation of a bargaining period was it Woods/Duggan or the alternative Jackson/Susz team?
I don't care who wants to be President as long as it isn't the peanut who voted down this resolution to formally notify Qantas that we are serious about resolving our EBA and the current offer just doesn't make the grade. ":=


I see your question has been answered LL, yes it's Capt Labrador and F/O Corridor Crawler backed by the company Lap Dogs on Com!

A mate of mine came up with the following thoughts about the coincidence of why the Lap Dogs obviously at the companys beck and call so vehemently wanted anything to do with EBA8 dead and buried and never to be resurrected!
What if due to economic circumstances the company is now strategically planning for a big worldwide economic slow down.
Killing off EBA8 would achieve a two fold aim ,firstly help with Capt Labradors aspirations to become the next company puppet president and secondly by killing off EBA 8 (which was mostly negotiated at a time when pilots had more leverage) the Company gets rid of a massive cost impost.

What do you think the difference in monetry terms of Minimum guarantee of EBA 8 stacked up against the Min guarantee under EBA7 would work out to be if the Company decides to park say 1/4 or so of the fleet?:eek:

[blow.n.gasket]

Mustavagander:
I realise that this is, perhaps, an inappropriate forum to air AIPA's dirty laundry, but in what has Wood-I taken on Charlie Q and won? In fact, when has he seriously taken Charlie Q on?

The now notorious court cases at once spring to mind. You've got to admit that the company was savagely flogged with several limp celery sticks.

Well Musta ,off the top of my head, I'd say the Senate inquiry into Casa would be a good start, the subsequent Casa audit into Qantas that couldn't be white washed becase of the Senate spot light ,ruffled a few Qantas feathers.

Then you have the Cabin Air Quality panel upon which AIPA has a seat, I notice Qantas doesn't.

Then you hear rumours of the role WoodI played in the APA demise, I'd say a lame duck president would have done nothing.

As a result of one of those "notorious " court cases as you called them,AIPA now has the right to represent Qantas Group pilots, this is after Holt ,the last puppet president we had ,and the worlds best Aviation Lawer in Australia botched the original application.

AIPA is the only pilots Union I hear about actually trying to progress an AusALPA combined/unified pilots union.

WoodI has been strategic enough to actually rebuild AIPA from being just a plain old Bargaining Agent and turned it into an industrial body like most other Professional Unions .
Yes for the first time AIPA and that also means pilots in Australia now have an important voice in Canberra that has enabled them to influence legislation prior to it becoming Law, a massive stategic move.
AIPA is now a prolific writer of papers for government submissions. AIPA is now putting an alternative view to Ministers, where once the only opinion they got was QANTAS'
AIPA now goes to Canberra and no longer do our reps get the old ,"AIPA you're that pensioner insurance mob", what interest do you have in aviation.

This is all just off the top of my head .
I'm sure WoodI or someone closer to the executive could add a lot more.

[mustafagander]

gasket baby,

You DO live on this earth I assume.

WTF???

Wood-I and APA demise? Nothing to do with it.

Tell me about the court case re relief from flying for AIPA executive.

Tell me how many "Qantas group pilots" have signed up to AIPA.

Tell me when AusALPA came into being.

I won't bother to delve further into your "reply". IMHO it falls from the southern end of a north bound horse.

[blow.n.gasket]

mustafagander,
I'd suggest that there was a lot more to the APA deal falling over than just the accepted notion of a missed fax.
Do some digging and find the correlation between the faxer who was late and Merrill Lynch. Right WoodI had nothing to do with it! You obviously know more than me! I'll leave it there for good reason.

Time relief, I'd suggest you talk to AIPA legal as to the reasoning behind that one. My take on it is, a one off win was all that would have been achieved when it was won and I believe the strategic worth of winning back independent arbitration would be worth a hell of a lot more than the one off monetary payment ,therefore worth the horse trade.

Why did we lose Arbitration in the first place Mustafagander?
Answer me that!
Still waiting for Holts excuse as to why he either wittingly or unwittingly signed that one away.
That's the reason behind all the so call expensive court action!

As to signing up members,well, build the field and they will come!
Yet the last puppet and his overpaid lawer couldn't even get that one right.
How much money would have been wasted if WoodI and his team hadn't picked up the original application error on the Coverage case?

AusAlpa , I'm well aware of the genisis of AusAlpa. How many other previous Presidents have done anything to get it up and running proper?.
Diddly squat!
How many hours ,days, weeks, months has WoodI and his team spent progressing this issue, yet always it's the same group how oppose such an important concept.Guess who leads that group? Yep, the very bloke who has vowed to overthrow WoodI and lead AIPA into a progressive dialogue filled cosy QANTAS/AIPA nirvana. Guess if he wins AusAlpa will remain as it is ,an unrealised concept !

As to your parting shot ,well from those very droppings can grow wonderous things!
Nice talking with you Mustafa.

[ligerlover]

LL. It was the second team you mentioned that voted the bargaining period down.

Thank you. I know I am new on here but if you don't mind I'd like to say a few things that can't really be discussed on crewroom. WTF are Jackson and Susz doing by putting barriers between us and the resolution of this round of negotiations? We knocked back the offer for varied reasons and clearly the company need to make some improvements. They aren't going to just walk in and give us more because they want to. It will only happen if they need to and the need will not be there until we at least pretend to be making moves towards an industrial showdown. The Lames have touched them up and the last thing they will want is another feathering.

Jackson/Susz step aside and let the men do their thing. We did our time in pergatory for 89 with years of muppet leadership until 2 years ago. The last thing we need is another pretender leading us. Just get on with it.

[What The]

Dumb and Dumber right there!

[busdriver007]

The company are laughing at this circus and Woods is Bozo the clown. The court cases are still there by pure arse , if the EBA was voted up these would been given away (over 1million dollars almost down the drain). AIPA is a joke and if it doesn't sort itself out soon then many members will leave. Woods is still suing COM members and he continues to lie about his involvement in financial sideshows. Talk about dumb and dumber these guys take the cake. I believe many proposals were put to Woods to get on with it but Woods continues to vacillate.
AUS ALPA continues to be mismanaged by Woods/Somerville being deceitful. Who supports VIPA and their bid for registration? Both lawyers do work for AIPA. Really going to help build the trust. Driving a wedge between AIPA and AFAP. Let Woods run AIPA for 2 more years and you will really see anarchy. Well good luck guys, run with it and you will regret it. :ugh:

[ligerlover]

Let Woods run AIPA for 2 more years and you will really see anarchy.

Are we going to see genuine anarchy or is it just that Jackson and Susz are creating anarchy in order to make the current President look bad? I can't think of a more untimely act of sabotage than talking down an EBA offer and then rejecting the motion to even lodge for a bargining period. Talk about kicking an own goal.

I believe many proposals were put to Woods to get on with it but Woods continues to vacillate.

Proposals are no good if the motions to support them are rejected. Dumb and dumber have a lot to answer for and god help us if they have anything to do with the EBA.

[What The]

You misinterpret who dumb and dumber are liger.

In order to lodge a notice of bargaining period one must have compiled a final log of claims.

Is it not AIPA's intent to survey the membership in order to find out what they want? How then can you have a log of claims if you don't know what the members want?

Was there a push by some to use the Woods \ Duggan resoundingly rejected document to create a log of claims and lodge with the commission? Sound like putting the horse before the cart.

Someone could \ should dig a bit deeper into the company being used for the survey by Woods and they would find some interesting links to the ALP and the books of AIPA may show a retainer. :=

[ligerlover]

Is it not AIPA's intent to survey the membership in order to find out what they want? How then can you have a log of claims if you don't know what the members want?


I may be a tad green at this but wouldn't you think that our EBA committee who have been negotiating for 2 years would know what we want? We've all had ample opportunity to provide ideas and feedback to the COM and now you are telling me that we got to a position in negotiation where an in principle agreement was made and our committee had no idea what we are seeking. Cmon give us a break. I want a payrise. It doesn't get easier than that and yes I voted no because I wasn't going to pay for it with such a radical change to what I have become accustomed to. I don't blame anyone for putting an offer in front of us, after all it was an offer. What I do object to is part of our COM (Jackson and Susz) then putting barriers between us and the finish line because they may want to climb that ladder a little bit higher and use AIPA as a stepping stone at our expense. :=

[Beer Baron]

"I may be a tad green at this but wouldn't you think that our EBA committee who have been negotiating for 2 years would know what we want?"

Well given the deal that they put together and wholeheartedly endorsed was voted down by an overwhelming majority, I think the answer to that question would have to be NO!

[What The]

Grow up.

The argument that Woods is being challenged by 2 people intent on furthering their careers at our expense is immature and absurd.

The counter could be that Woods and Somerville are using AIPA funds and time to further their political aspirations and ties within the ALP but that would be just as silly now wouldn’t it?

[The Mr Fixit]

quit the semantics

Put a motion to your executive from the floor or if you're really fair dinkum create a petition, if so many of you guys didn't like the company's offer put your money where your mouth or in this case vote is

"Lodge for PIA now in pursuit of our ORIGINAL log of claims"

See who knocks it back and you'll have most of your answers

Keep in mind that the support you gave the us, the engineers, on the ground will be reciprocated when required, because of our dispute we are no longer afraid to stand up

[ligerlover]

The argument that Woods is being challenged by 2 people intent on furthering their careers at our expense is immature and absurd.


Because we have never seen this before now have we.

[blow.n.gasket]

What's that Liger ?
dUMB AND dUMBER?
For a minute there I thought you were talking about the last Muppet
President and his brother "the village idot " who I think everyone referred to him as.

[What The]

Both have done more for pilots than either of you have ever achieved, but that would be lost on you both.

[ligerlover]

Your right there. Completely lost on me.

Maybe you can explain for us all what it is that muppet1 and muppet2 have done for us pilots.

[What The]

Who is us all?

Do you think that people share your bitter views?

You are an immature and ignorant fool.

BTW it's YOU'RE not YOUR.

And yes, spelling and comprehension do form part of an educated and civilised society. You, however, are just a whinger who thinks they know something but in reality just believe the lies you are fed.

Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy.

[Gingerbread]

The silence is deafening!

1661 people vote No to an EBA and their reps fade to grey at the first sign they might actually be asked to do more than just whinge. The would be president does his best to noble "el presidentay" and his supporters sink AIPA’s notice of bargaining proposal on the basis that new Qantas will be kind to pilots.

Unbelievable

Long live the :mad:

[ligerlover]

BTW it's YOU'RE not YOUR.

That's it you win. I can't spell or get my grammar right so I must agree that you're much smarter than me.


Maybe when you are President you can put out a nice notice with no spelling mistakes explaining to the members why you voted against a bargaining period. Then explain how, without even the hint or possibility of any industrial pressure, we can get an improvement on the offer that an overwhellming majority have said was not good enough.

Come in Jacko.

[blow.n.gasket]

Liger,
Would this be the same fellow who as a Vice President under Holt allowed that abomination called LOA161 to get through.
Now a mate of mine on Com at the time told me the LOA was voted down by the thinking element of Comm and Holt couldn't believe it, turns out he had already signed off on it with Manning.
When Comm finally came to a comprimise,LOA 161A ,the filibusters came out in order to delay.
Guess what ,the original LOA161 which Holt tabled, yes the very one voted down by Comm was slipped into the EBA 7 documents.
Remember that 7 inch thick bundle that was delivered to the membership only mere days prior to the vote. Wouldn't want too much scrutiny now ,would we ,before an EBA vote! When asked about where the information package would be delivered at Comm the reply was always , oh, there is a problem with the printers. What ,did they use Offset Alpine did they.
So here we have a guy who appears comfortable doing the very things he is accusing WoodI of.
The pot calling the kettle black I would say.

Then you get the classic line from these guys, New CEO, new Chief pilot , it's time for a change.
Didn't the new CEO state, "The only difference between me and Geoff you will notice is the accent"
Sounds suspiciously like more of the same old Dixon plan of give 'em nothing and screw 'em into the ground to me.
This whole campaign of Bazza's has the same ring to it that Whitlam's "Time for a change" campaign had. Look what happened under him, song and dance routine to dazzle the proletariat with, but behind the razzle dazzle no real plan ,except to get into power .Once there the company will dictate the way backwards ,I'd say.

Then you have at least 4 guys associated with the "ticket" that are singing the praises of "Team Bazza" who are on the A380. All mighty pleased EBA8 got shot down because they want the 7-8% pay rise they believe the MegaBlunberBus deserves.
I'd ask the question "how are you going to pay for it boys"?
PS didn't you guys castigate WoodI for running a Ticket campaign?

767 pilots prepare as you have in the past for another rogering by the senior boys to pay for their pay rise!

The more things change the more they stay the same!

At least the present guys are standing up to the management bullies,
none of them have management aspirations ,so I would hazard a guess are not comprimised by Management and at least have attempted an EBA that was as fair as it could be to all pilots under the present Industrial climate.

[Capt Kremin]

One of the alternative ticket VP's wannabees distinguished himself recently by open admitting he hadn't read any of the COM emails for the last three years. Now he wants to be a VP?
The other one lives in Melbourne. How the hell is he going to be an effective VP living there?

[busdriver007]

I would say more effective than the current ones......:ok:

[ligerlover]

Then you have at least 4 guys associated with the "ticket" that are singing the praises of "Team Bazza" who are on the A380. All mighty pleased EBA8 got shot down because they want the 7-8% pay rise they believe the MegaBlunberBus deserves.


This says it all. Maybe we should all take a wage cut to sponsor our heroes.

[Capt Kremin]

Part of the VP's job is filling in for the Pres when he is not available. One of the current VP's used to live in Melbourne and was never able to fulfill that function. I believe he has now moved back to Sydney, and is on the alternative ticket. He will probably do a good job.You cannot be effective living away from the AIPA office. The third guy doesn't even lower himself to read COM emails and is proud of the fact. Great ticket there!

[Gingerbread]

Qantas chairman slams unions

Qantas Airways chairman Leigh Clifford has reignited the carrier's verbal quarrel with labour unions, accusing them of failing to recognise the pressures impacting on the airline industry.
Speaking to The Australian Financial Review, Mr Clifford also said the company's shift towards offshore aircraft maintenance would not compromise safety.
"This sort of view that somehow or other if a plane is maintained outside of Australia it's not done as well is insulting," Mr Clifford told the newspaper.
He argued that Australians regularly fly on carriers like Emirates Airlines, Singapore Airlines and Lufthansa, which perform maintenance in countries that Qantas is leaning towards.
The airline industry is currently grappling with falling demand and rising fuel costs, and Mr Clifford said that some union officials were not "as alert to the dynamics of the industry as they need to be".
"I think union leadership doesn't seem to have a thorough grasp of the challenges that our employees and the company faces," he said.
Federal secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, Steve Purvinas told the AFR the union was disappointed by Mr Clifford's comments.
This year Qantas has slashed 1,500 jobs, shifted maintenance offshore and campaigned aggressively against unions to keep pay rises to a minimum in a bid to maintain profits as the industry becomes more challenging.


Doesn't sound like Bazz and the boys are going to have an easy time getting +9% for the MegaBus does it.:*

[kotoyebe]

Oh dear. I was worried we'd get more of the same over the next few years with the changing of the guards. I was tempted to give them a chance to show us different, but the last couple of releases from Le Chairman has confirmed not much is going to change. A union head kicker who knows how to dig dirt out of the ground. Yep! He's perfect to be the chairman of an airline.

There's nothing wrong with overseas maintainence, and I'm sorry that they are insulted, Mr C, but exactly how long was the last 737-400 offline after it came back from one of those overseas MROs?

I wonder how long before QF management will be calling for no wage increase, or even a drop in pay at an EBA? It's happened in the US, so why not here?

[max autobrakes]

How much do those other airlines pay for a check?
More than Qantas is willing to pay I'd hazard a guess.
"You get what you bargain for", says Geoff.
Haggle them into the ground then scratch your head wondering why you don't get top shelf.:uhoh:

[waren9]

I wonder how long before QF management will be calling for no wage increase, or even a drop in pay at an EBA? It's happened in the US, so why not here?

Not for a while yet, mate. Not after pocketing nearly a cool billion last year. They'd need to clock a couple of years with losses and burn up the cash reserves first. By then the economic picture will be alllllll different.

[blow.n.gasket]

You recon Wazza.
How about that EBA under Manning ,the one with the pay freeze . I'm fairly certain no loss was posted that year!
Amazing what you can achieve when you can yank the President's strings!:ooh:

[Capt Kremin]

Here we are, six weeks after the EBA was voted down and I am wondering if any of the naysayers are questioning the wisdom of their action.

EBA 7 redundancy provisions-No guarantee of re-employment
EBA 8 Guaranteed re-employment.

EBA 7 Min Guarantee- 151 hours on a reserve line
EBA 8 Min Guarantee- 165 hours reducing to 160 hours after three consecutive bid periods at 165, if required.

How things change in just a few weeks.

Ask any S/O how they voted and most will tell you they voted no.

In related news AIPA COM has to be very careful what payrise it goes after for the A380 lest it starts a revolt from the 767 guys. The following pay rates speak for themselves.

A380 SO (-400 SO plus 3%+3% backpay plus 6% A380 rate rise) compared to B767 FO (3% + 3% backpay)

A380 SO B767 FO
Yr2 $94.94 $105.93
Yr3 $99.96 $110.93
Yr4 $102.88 $113.00
Yr5 $108.12 $117.47
Yr6 $111.10 $120.33
Yr7 $113.86 $122.90
YR8 $119.43 $125.44
YR9 $120.98 $126.85
YR10 $122.67 $128.23
YR11 $124.32 $129.47

YR12 $125.97. $130.88

Yes thats right. A year 12 767 FO would be on 5 bucks an hour more than a year 12 A380 SO.
Solution? A380 SO's on 744 rates and pass the savings on to other ranks and fleets. This cannot be allowed to happen.

[Gingerbread]

Some types of people are good at manipulating, some at negotiating and others at predicting.

Seems that Woodeye and GD covered off the vision thing and the negotiating bit to get up an EBA based on how they saw the future. But the dopes didn’t pay enough attention to protecting their flanks from the manipulators pulling the rug from under them while they were busy working, did they.

How stupid some people can be.

Hope that the Qantas pilots’ decision to reject their EBA doesn’t turn out to be the biggest folly in aviation since 1989 and rumours that all future EBA's will require flexibility for free are rubbish. :ooh:

[busdriver007]

Hey Ginger,
My guess is all the blocking will fade as "Madman" Woods is dealt with by his committee. EBA 8 had some great ideas and some not so great ideas. Read the scoreboard, not even close was it. Interim EBA and maybe asking the troops might help. The company has until the 20/1 before the "Blunderbus" is grounded. The problem as always with pilots is lack of ticker. Are you going to jump the fence? Normally the noisy majority are the first to sign. Woodeye's vision is no more than fantasy, he is living in another world, devoid of reality.
Time will tell....

[Keg]

I must say that I never fully understood the theory behind 'protecting' S/O pay rates beyond about year 9 pay considering that the overwhelming majority of current F/Os and Captains took promotion to F/O within that time frame. Better to increase the F/O rate given that more people will take advantage of that!

[vigi-one]

Crikey Capt Kremin

What are you complaining about? A380 SO's are paid more than 10 year Dash skippers. Oh thats right we're not good enough to fly jets. Sorry/

[Gingerbread]

Hang on 007, I agree that there is a fine line between insanity and brilliance but to suggest woodeye is a madman is a big stretch.

Many wouldn’t agree with your view that his 'vision is no more than fantasy'.

He is where he is, because the pilots know he identified the super surcharge as a f*@# up and also helped save them from the pillaging they would have got had the APA bid got up.

If the manipulators have successfully pulled the rug from under him, expect he will leave it to them to come up with a new plan. Only hope for their sake that they've got one.

But I do agree 007 that time will soon tell if rejecting EBA 8 will be biggest pilot folly since 89. :sad:

[What The]

Now there's a desperate trying to rewrite history.

Sunk super surcharge?

Sunk APA bid?

In your dreams. Still believe in Santa?

[blow.n.gasket]

It's up there with believing Bazza's going to save the day!:ok:

[Ken Borough]

It is going to be kind of embarrassing when this stuff gets picked up by a right-wing journo in the midst of an economic slump,

Why worry about an economic slump? I would have thought that it would be embarrassing at any time. You blokes have too much money and too much time on your hands - get something real to worry about.

Are you suffering a life-threatening illness? Are you so badly off that your mortgages are to be fore-closed as a result of your default? Are you living a hand-to-mouth existence and can't afford new clothes for the kids ot to even send them to school?

Most Australians would kill for your terms and conditions so pulleeeeze get a grip on reality and pull your wingeing whining heads in. The sooner you are exposed the better. :mad::mad:

[blow.n.gasket]

If the company's Industrial agenda keeps heading in the same direction Mr Borough then there will be Mortgage foreclosures ,kids yanked out of schools,etc, so pull your head in please.
Just because Qantas pilots are the last remaining half decently paid pilots left in Australia doesn't give you any rights to parade your envy.
Bye the way the average wage for a Qantas Mainline pilot is only about $145K.
Train drivers in some WA mines earn more than $210K and they are having an industrial spat with their employer at present .
Care to cast some disparaging remarks their way because they dare to earn more than Joe the plumber?:=

[Obie]

"by the way the average pay for a Qantas mainline pilot is only about $145K"...

say's it all really, doesn't it?...

some people have no idea about the real world!

Perhaps we should all send "food parcels" to the underpaid Qantas pilots!!??

[max1]

Ken B,
Your type is the most perplexing type of creature one encounters on these forums.

You seem to be all to ready to rip into those who actually are on the front line when it comes to delivering revenue to a company , and are integral to delivering those revenues (note I did not say profits).

Yet remain silent on executive remuneration.

Having been involved in a management position in business it became obvious that whilst the wages bill was a large and vitally important part of costs, that decisions taken by management were an even more expensive proposition.

If EVERY decision made by the management of Qantas added to the bottom line you couldn't begrudge the remuneration. Whoever worked out the fuel hedging position of the last 12-18 months deserves whatever they got. But what about those who picked the routes, planned the fleet, worked out the seat configuration,orchestrated the industrial plans,promoted the Allco bid, etc etc.

All those decisions have impacted negatively on the bottom line, yet you don't question whether these individuals are worth the millions they are pulling out of the bottom line because the airline in-toto delivered a billion dollar result.

What would it have been if the management had actually made every decision correctly?
Okay, nobody could have picked everything correctly without a crystal ball. But why do the management continue to recompense themselves as though they had?

[Ken Borough]

drag everybody down to your level cause you've not got a hope of attaining what they've worked for

Not at all. I am financially better off than most QF pilots and derive it where honesty and integrity are more important than the size of one's watch.

parade your envy

Now, who would in their right mind bear envy toward any pilot? we have better things to think about.

max1, this discussion is not about executive remuneration. It's about the failure of AIPA membership to agree to a new EBA! Don't get me started on executive pay at Qantas, especially at the top levels. At the working levels, most staff put in very long hours and are not that highly rewarded. There are some d!ckheads as you would find in any company but from what I know of them, you would not find a more dedicated and professional group of people. I am always fascinated by aircrew who think they know better than the experts and specialists in the back offices - on the other side of the Pacific they would be known as "Monday morning quarter-backs".

Now, get back to the EBA. :ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

I'm sure AIPA will resume EBA negotiations once the "Role over King" is ensconced and the Company tells him what they want!:ok:

[kotoyebe]

As of 0245Z today, you each just copped yourself a lawsuit for libel, and pending caveats on your selling any of your property!!!!

Gee, I wish I could get my solicitor to work that quick. So now they put a caveat on someones house when an allegation is made? Wow! And you haven't even got their real names yet? What's the name of your solicitor...I gotta get him next time I need one.

[Nunc]

Not a fan of Bazza's eh blown.n

[Razor]

I would like the "holes" that were identified in EBA8 tided up. It is a step forward - a challenging step but a necessary one I believe. To go back to EBA7++ would just cement in the mind of management how much a bunch of dinosaurs we are. It would give them an excuse to go elsewhere for their pilots.
The "guarantee" of B787 flying that some wanted was fantasy land - at least the statement that if flown in QF livery it would be flown by LH pilots was as good as you would get and could expect. We are going to have to offset a lot more in any future negotiation to get at least this statement back. We have to remain competitive.
Fix EBA8, create incentive to promote and make us relevant to the future of this company.

Time will tell if the 24% that voted yes may have got it right or not. Reminds me of all of those Yes voters for the APA bid that, if it wasn't saved by an error, would now be looking at the ashes of this once proud company.:(

[Tempo]

Obie, Ken Borough,

So what in your world do you think the average pilot in Qantas should earn? Is 50K too much? Tell me...do you really think earning $145K as an F/O and spending half your nights every year away from home in hotel rooms too much? What price do you think this is worth? I am not complaining-I love my job but I am definately not overpaid. Do you have the same point of view for other industries? Someone raised the point about guys driving trucks at the mine earning the same if not more. What are your thoughts on that??

Cmon....enlighten me to the 'real world' because obviously all my GA time was spent with my head up my arse if I think that I am not overpaid.

Oh and btw Ken.....I dont even wear a watch

[Sprite]

Ken

Not at all. I am financially better off than most QF pilots and derive it where honesty and integrity are more important than the size of one's watch

I am always fascinated by aircrew who think they know better than the experts and specialists in the back offices - on the other side of the Pacific they would be known as "Monday morning quarter-backs".

It doesn't just apply to the back office 'Ken'. You have just admitted you are not a QF pilot, and seem to imply you are not a pilot at all. Therefore what you are doing by commenting on this thread is being a "monday morning quarter-back" and commenting officiously on something about which you have no true understanding. Next you'll be finding an orthopaedic surgeon and telling them they're just overpaid underworked carpenters.

Hypocrite.

[Obie]

You need to read gaskets post again Tempo.
He said "the average wage of a Qantas mainline pilot is only about $145K".
And an average is similar to a median, which means salaries are being earned far in excess of that figure! I don't have a problem with that at all. I also don't have a problem with you earning that average salary at this point in your career because I believe you deserve it. You also deserve the 200 to 300k that you'll be earning down the track and I wish you well.

But please, don't cry poor! :ok:

[Tempo]

I am still waiting to hear about the 'real world'.......

[Ken Borough]

Obie - very well put. Some people just can't be objective but instead insist on attacking the individual rather than his or her message. I guess it is much easier to mount a personal attack than sensibly attack the argument. Some things never change.....


As for Tempo saying ' I am still waiting to hear about the 'real world'.......', it perfectly sums up the isolated view of the world that is expressed by many of the higher paid in our midst.

[Wingspar]

it perfectly sums up the isolated view of the world that is expressed by many of the higher paid in our midst.

Now that's objective!

[Obie]

Going by your last post Tempo, your attitude indicates to me that you may also be waiting a long time to be addressed as Captain! :=

[dragon man]

It will be all different tomorrow with a new AIPA president to be officially announced.

[ligerlover]

It will be all different tomorrow with a new AIPA president to be officially announced.

Ah that would be a good move. We can all forego a wage rise so Barry and his 380 mates can get that massive jump they all deserve.

[Daniel Bernoulli]

liger,

You've picked it like a nose.

Unfortunately, that is exactly the agenda of the BJ push.
Goodbye fleet pay. Goodbye modernising the contract to make us relevant in this century.

Welcome back the senior filth with their snouts in the trough and self-interest their only interest.

IW may not have been perfect, but was at least forward looking and altruistic.

[dragon man]

Forward looking, pigs bottom. Treat them like mushrooms (in the dark, feed them on manure). Who asked the pilots if they wanted fleet pay (no one). A modern contract (crap) a document that was so badly written QF could have driven a truck through it. Whats wrong with the seniority based system, 76% of those that voted on the EBA voted to keep it. Some ones out of step here and i dont think its me.

[blow.n.gasket]

Come on Dave don't gloat so much ,it's unbecoming.
As my old Grandpappy once said "carefull what you wish for"
Time will tell if this was a wise move considering the present circumstances .
Congratulations or should that be condolences,( depending on your outlook ) to Barry and his band of merry company men considering the looming finacial tsunami about to hit us.

[noip]

well ........ I hardly think they are "merry company men" .... certainly not from my interactions with them.

N

[Going Boeing]

liger, Daniel & Blow.n. It sounds like you don't know the new AIPA executive members very well. These guys will negotiate with QF management just as aggressively as IW's team but will have a much more structured approach. These guys are there for bettering members conditions - not for their own personal gains.

[blow.n.gasket]

Hope you're right Boeing
'cos it's our collective futures at stake!
However ,I do know these guys well, that's what worries me!
Time will tell I guess.

[noip]

Boeing

Agree

[Tempo]

Obie,

Nice work.......when all else fails go for the personal attack.

[Obie]

More a statement based on years of experience, son!

[The Mr Fixit]

IMHO

Within six months you will regret this impulsive decision then you will be in for 18 months of pain.

I really feel sorry for you guys (and gals) you have cut off your nose to spite your face and you will pay heavily for your stupidity.

[What The]

Why? Tell us more.

[mmmbop]

Dragon Man,

It appears your head is firmly up your own .....

I voted 'no'. Not to keep a ridiculously out of date and dinosaur making document, but so that EBA 8 could have the problems with it corrected. If trucks could be driven through it, then so can our current document. Not one of those who made fools of themselves on Qrewroom by showing your complete ignorance to our current EBA when posting about clauses in EBA8 were you?

EBA8 has the potential to be a fantastic document. It just needs some modifications. EBA 7 +++ is a completely stupid and out of step way to go. I KNOW that I am not the only one who thinks this way.

M

[Tempo]

Thanks for your wisdom and 'experience' Dad

[Keg]

Whats wrong with the seniority based system, 76% of those that voted on the EBA voted to keep it.

I voted 'no' partly because EBA8 didn't do enough to work some more equity into the bidding system. Voting 'no' to EBA8 does not imply agreement with EBA7++. Personally I don't reckon that we can justify a pay rise for the A380....particularly the S/Os. I reckon the amount paid to 744 drivers is 'enough' for an aircraft that size. I'd like to see any 'premium' destined for the A380 utilised to beef up A330/787/777/A350/767 (and replacement) pay rates. (I'll declare my self interest that as a 767 I do well out of that).

Fleet pay is a great idea. CAO48 exemption is a great idea when it has sound barriers around the sectors we utilise it on. A bonus bank is a great idea. What did EBA8 in wasn't the philosophy of it, it was the pure numbers.

[ligerlover]

I voted no because I have just won command of a nice new airbus with two decks and think this entitles me to double the wage of others. I am better, I am smarter and I am your new leader. In future I would like to known as Captain President. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[CaptCloudbuster]

I'd like to see any 'premium' destined for the A380 utilised to beef up A330/787/777/A350/767

Keg

You're dream is now dead. The new team is on record as saying 10 - 15% as an interim solution for A380. They are on record as believing the NO vote was all the proof needed that the membership rejected any notion of Fleet Pay paid for by spreading the wealth around.

President, VP and VP A380 Capts - what do we expect..

[Wingspar]

You've seen Dixon Pty Ltd hit costs when things have been going well. Well just wait and see their determination next year when I dare say planes will be parked!
10-15% above 400 rates is a futile dream.
Good luck!

By the way can anyone post the % difference EK and SQ pay above existing type rates? That will be the only ammo AIPA could use in such a claim.

[Tankengine]

7% for SQ, don't know re EK.

[Angle of Attack]

Personally I don't reckon that we can justify a pay rise for the A380....particularly the S/Os.

Wow already a crusty old captain by the sound of it!

Enough said...literally! :)

[Keg]

Lol. That took a lot longer than I expected! :E :ok: :}

[teresa green]

Stick it to them lads, but just make sure you don't end up with to many line blokes who become "Seagulls". (You have to throw rocks at em to make them fly) they are after a nice cushy job, with a little office girl to make their tea, and home for a game of golf. They have appeared in every generation of pilots, in every airline. I have seen it all.:=

[newsensation]

There is a problem with the Qantas System when a second officer gets paid more than a DASH 8 Captain.....:ugh:

[max autobrakes]

Not to mention that a State transit bus driver earns more to boot!:uhoh:

[OhSpareMe]

There is a problem with the Qantas System when a second officer gets paid more than a DASH 8 Captain.....


Oh really? Second Officers deserve every cent they earn. The jet can't go without them and their pay is well justified.


But what I really want to know is whether you are a Second Officer or a Dash 8 Captain?

[Jetsbest]

Shouldn't that be "There is a problem with the Qantas System when a DASH 8 Captain gets paid less than a second officer."?

It's easy to sound jealous with ill-considered outbursts. Try not to blame the S/Os; their pay is merely a percentage of the Captain's pay on the aircraft type they fly. Most S/Os (yes, even the ex-Dash-8-captain ones) would be direct F/Os in many reputable companies. Many S/Os have thousands of hours in command when they join QF, electing to accept the discounted conditions of S/O pay, slow promotion, and jetlag for the 'stay in Oz' employment opportunity.

Lighten up and direct your ire in the right direction! :ok:

[Obie]

Hey!...that could be considered a good point!...

but it isn't!

ANY Commander and ANY F/o is worth more than ANY S/o who just sits on a jump seat!!

QED!

[Poto]

Hey!...that could be considered a good point!...

but it isn't!

ANY Commander and ANY F/o is worth more than ANY S/o who just sits on a jump seat!!

QED!
Today 19:44

Sorry champ but Dash f/o's and Skippers are grossly underpaid and S/O are merely under paid.

Jet best has summed it succinctly. The fact that Dash crew are not fed into the big brother is the reason the inconsistencies exist.

[152passenger]

Bit of a side track but if the dash * skipper wants better pay then he could be a S/O in QF provided he jumps through the hoops like everyone else. A persons worth to a company is dependent on a number of factors and an S/O, whilst not ultimately having the same responsibility as captain on any type his responsibility is still substatial.
I dont hear any arguments that A single pilot IFR charter pilot is earning less than a dash 8 F/O. While most would agree that he ultimately has more responsibility than a Dash 8 F/O he is paid less in most cases.
Another example of this would be an accountant for Ernst and Young. I'm sure a lower ranking employee would be earning more than a top ranked one in a mid sized company.

Everyone, at the end of the day is out to get the best they can for their given situation in a competitive world, weather this is trough remuneration lifestyle or whatever else is valuable to to each person or a group of people and this is why an eba negotiation will always be a highly emotive issue

[DutchRoll]

I can't think of anything worse, teresa green, than taking up a job in the management office.

It is abundantly clear that line guys going to the office undergo a major operation which removes both the hippocampus and amygdala, as well as a substantial proportion of the pre-frontal cortex: all the major areas of the brain involved in forming long and short term memories.

There must surely be risks of post-operative complications in that?

[max autobrakes]

What part of the brain controls morality?
'cos that part must be defective or missing with most of the lanyard wearing corridor crawlers I see in management.:eek:

[golfjet744]

ANY Commander and ANY F/o is worth more than ANY S/o who just sits on a jump seat!!

QED!

Not according to the every airline in the world.

I am worth more than you cos i work harder than you. :ugh: What a croc. Your salary has nothing to do with trying to make life fair.

The only time the argument has even the smallest amount of credibility is when it is made comparing the salary of a 767 FO and a 744 SO. This is because they are both covered by the same contract albeit working on completely different operations.

Lifes not fair so negotiate the best contract you can. If you can get 2 million with a 2 million performance bonus for being a Dash Capt then go get it. :ok: You won't hear me complaining that you are overpaid. But i'd certainly have my application in the be a Dash Capt.

Ps. being an SO sucks. thats why so many are willing to do themselves out of cash and go fly the maggot.

[teresa green]

You want to believe it Dutch Roll, more time on the golf course, at the girlfriends, sleep in your own bed, and picking up more money than you. All those extra little attractions, to a bloke who is a little weary, why would you knock it back. There used to be a line of them waiting at TN and QF.

[Obie]

...but not at Ansett!...

the big difference TG, between your lot and our lot! :ok:

[teresa green]

yeah, but Obie, look what happened to your motley mob. All jokes aside the more imput from Pilots and Engineers (as is used to be) into the running of a company, and less from bean counters, even if means some techies, and engineers become part time paper shufflers, providing they are there for the right reasons, not just a bludge, could serve the airlines well, (they couldn't do any worse then trying to flog the whole box and dice to Allco).