Atlas Polar

[joetommy]

I don't understand the argument. Let's get a new contract where everyone is equal. Ask the Atlas guys what I mean. The senior guys work under one plan. The junior guys under another plan. Not everyone has the same work rules. Let's make it all for one and one for all.

THANKS

[Fr8Dog]

J.T.

W.T.F. are you talking about? There is only 1 base plan at Atlas. Now if you are talking about first year pay, that is another story.

[whaledriver101]

I think what your Atlas comrade is saying Fr8dog is that he's probably a little tired of the senior guys getting the "gravey" schedules without being extended. And the junior guys getting the shaft and always getting extended(I guess JT is not very senior and tired of working 3 weeks out of the month).

[dumbdumb]

It seems as what some people aren't understanding is that each year that goes by is another year that management reaps the benefits of cheap labor. They're laughing all the way to the bank. They don't care how long it takes for joint negotiations, Teamsters vote, etc. That's the BIG picture. Projected profit over 185 million for 2009. Ohh no wonder the stock is doing very well and they're keeping their nose out of the merger situation.

Even if/when Teamsters is voted in how long do you think it will take to get a contract????? And while on this subject . . . do you really think it's a good idea to go after an ABX style contract? I hardly think not. What good is that contract when you're on the street?

So come on guys/gals it's time to pull together and get this crap behind us. Again, every day without a current contract is a day that we are losing out. WAKE UP!!!

[Fr8Dog]

Oh, now I understand, let's see at Fedex, UPS, United etc the senior guys don't get the better lines? They don't get the first shot at the prime vacation slots? Time to wake-up and smell the cappuccino, this is about the only benefit of having spent more time here.:ugh:

[whaledriver101]

Fr8dog

The senior guys get the best schedules everywhere you go. And they should. Nobody is argueing that. Again,, like I said in my last post,, JT must not be very senior and is probably getting a little tired of 3 week "bits" at a time. And he's probably been doing that for awhile. He probably wasnt with Atlas at the time you guys agreed to one of the lousiest contracts in aviation history(thats fact). Even junior guys at crappy companies like United are not gone 3 weeks at a time. Thats a little to much. You'd agree with that right????

[nitty-gritty]

Even if/when Teamsters is voted in how long do you think it will take to get a contract????? And while on this subject . . . do you really think it's a good idea to go after an ABX style contract? I hardly think not. What good is that contract when you're on the street?

So come on guys/gals it's time to pull together and get this crap behind us. Again, every day without a current contract is a day that we are losing out. WAKE UP!!!

It would be great to have had this merger done a long time ago as it should have been done and us under a new merged contract. One side did everything it could to log jamb the merger for years and thus halting negotiations for a new contract. Only recently started again due to the decertification vote of ALPA thanks to http://atlasforteamsters.com. ALPA woke up to the fact that they would be loosing 900 dues paying guys versus supporting the 170 minority wants and desires. ALPA support lasts only as long as it pays. Atlas three years out of amendable date and Polar approaching two years on our contracts. If the decertification vote goes in favor of ALPA, you can FULLY expect another log jamb initiated by ALPA (advized by some in Herndon) of the merger for their favored sons (170) on one side of this equation with a "sue us if you don't like it" approach from ALPA further chewing up more of our time and money to getting contracts for both sides combined or separated.

As to the ABX style of contract. I don't think anyone is looking to do one company style or another. I think it is going to be "our" style stealing as many examples from other contracts to help us out. Why reinvent the wheel so to speak. As to ABX, they are unfortnate as Astar to have their major customer DHL (only customer of Astar) cut them loose. ABX does have a upper hand due to the fact they have another customer in Japan flying about 6 767's. So they will probably survive though in very small numbers. Astar on the other hand, while getting much fan faired support from ALPA, will probably fall to the way side. Maybe with some "keep out of court severance pay" to the crews.

This is unfortunately what can happen when you are a ACMI company. You loose customers to others or to the original customer. That's why you need a broad customer base.

In all the cases above, when you have lawyers on staff such as ALPA, court costs don't mean much. Makes for good PR also.

I agree a contract is over due and the company is getting a great windfall out of this.

[Heilhaavir]

Heard from someone over at Spirit that their DO, JC (hmmm... another one :)) has just resigned and is heading over to Atlas. Any one heard anything about that or what position he'd be filling?

[Miami Freight]

This is unfortunately what can happen when you are a ACMI company. You loose customers to others or to the original customer. That's why you need a broad customer base.


No, that is why you need strong scope lanuage.

[WhaleDriver]

No, that is why you need strong scope lanuage.

So ask Astar what their scope lanuage is doing for them now. Scope is usless if you don't have any business..........

[hvydriver]

I would have to agree with that. Scope as an ACMI carrier is virtually useless.

[nitty-gritty]

Looking at the ALPA site, it does not seem to work very well at the Scheduled Carriers either.

[layinlow]

Polar being a perfect example. I agree with nitty. too many ways to get around it.

[clyde87]

I just got done reading the closed thread, and now this one.

Somethings I missed reading atlasforteamsters

1) Where is the proprosed budget of the local, which should include the following itemizations: total income as of today's membership, total dollar amount and percent of local monies to int'l, total dollar amount and percent of monies to lawyer (as a proposed standalone local one would assume they want their own full-time lawyer),

2) exact plans for loss of license/aeromedical team/aviation legal. I mean, God forbid, if I get hurt or violated, what EXACTLY will the teamsters do?

3) exact structure of MEC and organized committees

4) exact outline of what services are provided by the int'l for the dues money flowed uphill

5) names/resumes of all involved in proposed local, and each individual directly above, all the way to Hoffa

6) what about www.irbcases.org (http://www.irbcases.org)?

7) What exact services from, and what monetary contribution to, Local 1224. Which I expect has their handsful with the great furloughs at that airline, and can they be expected to fulfill their obligation to us with such dire probelms at home? If so, are they foregoing their fudiciary responsibilities to their membership if they don't focus 100% of their effort during this time of intense hardship at their own airline?

8) Why did NetJets leave teamsters(was the largest memebership in the airline division)? Why is there an uprising against IBT at RAH (2nd largest group in terms of memebership)?

9) Why would our local recieve professional negotiators when none of the local 747 airlines did?

10) Most importantly, does the magazine subscription fulfill my montly mustache porn quota?

[nitty-gritty]

Polar being a perfect example. I agree with nitty. too many ways to get around it.

I agree. As much work and aircraft that was removed from Atlas to Polar and then returned back to Atlas depending on who was in negotiations, I do have to agree with layinlow.

At some point, we may mutually agree to merge to help stop one more way management works around us in particular.

[rob rilly]

Clyde, Nitty can't seem to answer you or is just ignoring you. But boy, he is all for the Teamsters ! Go figure....

[Intruder]

Somethings I missed reading atlasforteamsters
Can you direct us to the analogous pages on the PUBLIC portion of the ALPA web site? If not, then there is no reason for that information to be on a PUBLIC atlasforteamsters site...

[742]

clyde87

posts: 1

Here we go again...

[nitty-gritty]

I was actually going to respond and then thought better of it after noting that I was going to the http://www.atlasforteamsters.com site under Q's and A's, The Facts, Administrative, and Documents to get the answers to many of your questions.

I would think a more informed answer to your questions not address by those pages can be made to their questions email address on the Q's and A's page if it does not involve them repeating themselves.

As to Netjets, you will have to ask them why they left. Just like you would have to ask why USAir left ALPA recently. Forgot how many thousands that was.

Irbcases.org - don't know how to address that one just like I don't know how to address the past Federal investigation of ALPA President Prater for misuse of union funds for flight pay loss payments to some of his council members at pay rates in A/C they were not in and also their working on his election while being paid by the union under flight pay loss. I believe that is a no-no along with a few others things investigated. I don't know if that got dropped or just put on the back burner by the Feds.

Some of what you asked administratively has not been done yet, let alone the fact that ALPA has not been decertified yet. One has to happen before the other can be completed. I believe it states local 1224 would carry out those admin functions until we are up and running. Elections determine some of the infrastructure you are asking about. Positions are similar to the ALPA structure but are not exactly the same. The Administrative Documents link can give you more on that in the bylaws and such.

Financial's I can't comment on to much. I can't even get that out of an established ALPA council and national without jumping through a bunch of hoops. I do understand ALPA is in the red though. Judging from all the new ways they are trying to increase dues i.e. the recent attempt to enforce paying dues on your 401k and the selective council to council funding cuts to the bone seem to reflect that. Let alone the ALPA staffing cuts over the last year.



clyde87

posts: 1

Here we go again...

I know what you mean.

[clyde87]

If I had one post or 1000, would the validity of the questions change? I think not.

I don't see how the number of times I post directly correlates to my aviation experience. Seeing as how the same people argue the same point or 2 points, and neither side budges at all, I could post a million times and it wouldn't matter.

I had concerns, I brought them up. I had a summarily dismissive answer from 742 and a vague/insulting answer from nitty. Why post if genuine concerns are summarily dimissed because I'm not a believer?

I know ALPA has many, many faults. However, it is the known devil. To me, a former IBT airline division memeber, I'm also aware of the enormous faults of the IBT. There will be posts that insult me because I wasn't IBT enough, or I don't hate ALPA enough, or whatever. That's unimportant.

Getting REAL information to sort through instead of topical propaganda prior to changing representation is important. If we choose wrong, we will never be home, we will have no leverage against the company. There are facts that your blessed site omits, ignores or distorts nitty. It's a fact, and I can say so because I WAS an Airline Division Teamster.

But what do I know? I only have 2 posts on pprune.

[clyde87]

I was actually going to respond and then thought better of it after noting that I was going to the http://www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/) site under Q's and A's, The Facts, Administrative, and Documents to get the answers to many of your questions.

If you mean the part that I read with all the vague answers with, what seemed the credibility of the "Rumor Board", then I've already read it. The questions asked were not answered.

I would think a more informed answer to your questions not address by those pages can be made to their questions email address on the Q's and A's page if it does not involve them repeating themselves.

Cool, the teamsters answer questions if it's not inconvenient for them. Just like I remember.

As to Netjets, you will have to ask them why they left. Just like you would have to ask why USAir left ALPA recently. Forgot how many thousands that was.

Good no call, followed by a distractor. I know being now 3 posts in, I'm either 1) up to no good and want to start an argument or 2) I'm a moron in your eyes, and that's fine, but let's have some real answers about your cause.

Like everyone else in the industry, I have friends that worked there. They left the IBT because the represenation level was not there, and they had no professional negotiator helping them during the last contract cycle. It is FAR more significant because that SINGLE company was the MAJORITY of the IBT Airline division membership.

Irbcases.org - don't know how to address that one just like I don't know how to address the past Federal investigation of ALPA President Prater for misuse of union funds for flight pay loss payments to some of his council members at pay rates in A/C they were not in and also their working on his election while being paid by the union under flight pay loss. I believe that is a no-no along with a few others things investigated. I don't know if that got dropped or just put on the back burner by the Feds.

I think a settlement, that even though it's not an admission of guilt, but looks alot like one, is lightyears different than an investigation. I'll even bet if the Prater investigation goes somewhere, I doubt there will be an independent review board required, or memebers permanently banned.

Some of what you asked administratively has not been done yet, let alone the fact that ALPA has not been decertified yet. One has to happen before the other can be completed. I believe it states local 1224 would carry out those admin functions until we are up and running. Elections determine some of the infrastructure you are asking about. Positions are similar to the ALPA structure but are not exactly the same. The Administrative Documents link can give you more on that in the bylaws and such.

See, such a vague answer does none of us any good. I'd figure if you want to organize, and vote in a new representation, as an established company that's been represented for years, you'd want to get your crap together right quick. Again, no worthwhile information was provided by the website or your answer.

Financial's I can't comment on to much. I can't even get that out of an established ALPA council and national without jumping through a bunch of hoops. I do understand ALPA is in the red though. Judging from all the new ways they are trying to increase dues i.e. the recent attempt to enforce paying dues on your 401k and the selective council to council funding cuts to the bone seem to reflect that. Let alone the ALPA staffing cuts over the last year.

Nothing wrong with jumping through hoops for an established system. I have no problem with that. Those are actual numbers. I'd expect the same should representation change. However, pointing out ALPA's glaring deficits in areas we all see everyday is just insulting. I am a member of ALPA. I understand the weaknesses. From my experience at both unions, the ALPA cuts in funding and staffing still have them ahead from the IBT airline division.

And of that 22% "gratuity" we send from the local to the int'l, about .0001% will come back in the form of the Trucker magazine. That's all we'll see from the Int'l.

I've lived through both systems. I can say with 100% certainty that alot of the "promises" will not come true. Until more questions are asked, and honest answers returned, I will refuse to change my stance.

Based on the closed thread that I read, prompting me to post my first post, and my actual experience with the IBT, I asked some questions.

Nitty, have you been an Airline Division Teamster? Have you ever filed a grievance as an Airline Division Teamster? Ever been through a contract negotiation process as an Airline Division Teamster? Ever had to fight a legal or medical issue as an Airline Division Teamster?

I have, or have had close friends who have, done all of those. I can tell you the "resources" were far less than promised. Go to www.republicpilots.org (http://www.republicpilots.org) and ask some questions about legal representation. Big hornet's nest about that right now.

[nitty-gritty]

You seem pretty thin skinned for an ex IBT Airline Division member. I believe I answered in the same manner as how the questions were asked. Even made reference to whom you could get more detailed answers from. Usually I try to go to the source for answers to most things important. I might ask someone's opinion to get ideas from like on these boards, but I would not take it as law until proven out from a reliable source. I suggest everyone else do the same. Especially with the FAR's.

Your questions followed much of what the "August 21 Prater Letter to the Atlas / Polar groups" which contains a number of redirections to selective self serving responses to the Teamsters movement which just makes me suspicious of your intent. You being an ex IBT Airline Division member, you should already know the answer to a number of your questions since they deal with IBT hierarchy and administration. That just reinforces my suspicions of your intent here.

[Best Angle]

Now that I see how supicious you are of an ex Teamster, it makes me a bit suspicious of your intentions. I thought we were all in this together.

[clyde87]

You seem pretty thin skinned for an ex IBT Airline Division member.

If by "thin skinned", you mean not willing to listen to the propaganda machine, and actually ask questions with substance, then yes, I must admit I'm guilty.

I believe I answered in the same manner as how the questions were asked.

Specific questions and vague answers....the formula for bamboozling....


Even made reference to whom you could get more detailed answers from. Usually I try to go to the source for answers to most things important. I might ask someone's opinion to get ideas from like on these boards, but I would not take it as law until proven out from a reliable source. I suggest everyone else do the same. Especially with the FAR's.

The FAR reference is great. I really never thought of reading the book to get answers. Usually I just ask what certain FARs pertain to my job and use the pprune answers as gospel. The insult of acting like I don't know where to get answers is an awesome way to discredit my post. I could email them, but how could the answers be vetted. The website is a sales pitch. Actual 3rd party answers would probably be your best source.

Your questions followed much of what the "August 21 Prater Letter to the Atlas / Polar groups" which contains a number of redirections to selective self serving responses to the Teamsters movement which just makes me suspicious of your intent.

Just so you don't mix my words, I don't like ALPA. I just happen to think Teamsters are worse. My questions came directly from reading atlasforteamsters and things like the "factsheet" and "Q & A" areas.

I'm definately no ALPA fan. But if you think it's bad now, rue the day you become a Teamster Airline Division.

You being an ex IBT Airline Division member, you should already know the answer to a number of your questions since they deal with IBT hierarchy and administration. That just reinforces my suspicions of your intent here.

Me being an ex-IBT Airline Division member somehow reinforces your suspicions of my intent? My intent is to ensure that people who are voting have the real picture of life. Not a "grass is greener" version. BTW, that "greener grass" you're looking at is AstroTurf.

Suffice it to say here's my entire MO for my post: Yes, I'll agree with atlasforteamsters in that ALPA has serious flaws. That being said, atlasforteamsters does not represent a complete and true picture of the life I experienced under the IBT Airline division. Every single flaw ALPA has is magnified at IBT Airline Division.

Oh, nitty, how long were you an IBT Airline Division memeber? Thanks

[layinlow]

There are a lot of changes at Polar/Atlas and some pretty contentious negotiations, mergers, contracts, arbitration decisions, etc. Do you really want to change horses in the middle of the stream?

[Beaver_Driver]

There are a lot of changes at Polar/Atlas and some pretty contentious negotiations, mergers, contracts, arbitration decisions, etc. Do you really want to change horses in the middle of the stream?

WT. Why do you care?
Yes - our riderless horse is drowning.

[nitty-gritty]

Looks like we started writing at the same time. Noted you were online when I was writing last and didn't see that you got another post up after hitting the submit on mine.

Oh, nitty, how long were you an IBT Airline Division memeber?

6 years with IBT at two different carriers.

I have been directly active in ALPA on a number of levels for the last 9 years. More than long enough to know how we are being treated on a council to council level within ALPA.

======================================

It appears you are not looking for answers but more of a stage to broadcast your agenda. Knock yourself out. If you were looking for the answers, you would have communicated with the source (which obviously didn't happen considering your time between responses) instead of ranting here. Especially after being given the direction to go look for them from a live person(s) instead of a web site.

Now that I see how supicious you are of an ex Teamster, it makes me a bit suspicious of your intentions. I thought we were all in this together.
Suspicious of his ultimate agenda and how it is being done under the guise of questions that he does not seem to follow up on to get the answers after being directed on how to. We have had on the Atlas side one guy that was being used as a tool for National cutting and pasting a number of unusually specific questions into his web board postings that were obviously given him to ask. Probably by National lawyers which didn't fit his style of writing and the cutting and pasting gave it away due to the font changes and inconsistent writing style in his posts. Everyone caught on to that.

I have not been hiding I'm pro Teamsters after spending a number of years attempting to work inside of the ALPA system to fix how we are treated. That didn't work along with a number of other guys doing the same and here we are moving on to the next step in life. Not too unlike a failed marriage. There is a point at which moving on is the only reasonable step.

Yes, we are all in this together and that will be reinforced when the single carrier determination comes out from the NMB.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/tls/logs.pl

[atlast]

On the money Nitty. We are simply moving on!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Ball park figures but close enough to help clarify a few things. Everything is my opinion alone and may contain errors since this is mostly from memory.


1) Where is the proprosed budget of the local, which should include the following itemizations: total income as of today's membership, total dollar amount and percent of local monies to int'l, total dollar amount and percent of monies to lawyer (as a proposed standalone local one would assume they want their own full-time lawyer),

-Total income for the Atlas Local approx 1.4M to 1.6M per year.
-100% is payed directly to the local, ie 100% control of all funds.
-Approx 20% is payed to IBT.
-1.2M annually remains to fund the local.
-Staff will include Full time attoney, Negotiator, office staff operating in a dedicated place of business ("Local" office).
-All matters will be handled by the attorney, in other words if you have a problem each crewmember will work with a real attorney who will in turn handle the matter with a company representative.
-Balance of budget will go into a fund/reserve/war chest.

2) exact plans for loss of license/aeromedical team/aviation legal. I mean, God forbid, if I get hurt or violated, what EXACTLY will the teamsters do?

Those services are currently provided by an outside contractor who also provides the same exact services to Southwest Airlines. The same Loss of License, Aeromedical, Aviation legal can be had for approx $6.00 per crewmember per month... However, there are other providers which may be able to tailor a benefit package more in line with the scope of our international operations with greater coverage using existing recognized legal/insurance agencies that work on a contract basis for ALPA.

In a nut Shell, Teamsters will not provide these services just like ALPA does not provide these services. These services are provided by OUR local to OUR crewmembers with specific beneifts that match our specific needs.

3) exact structure of MEC and organized committees
-Board of directors (7 total, 6 voting, 1 tie-breaker).
-Committee structure is left to each local, more than likely there will be no change or modification other than incorporating new faces to represent both the ACMI and Scheduled aspects of our combined operation.

4) exact outline of what services are provided by the int'l for the dues money flowed uphill
-Access to the Western States Pension plan
-Access to additional legal staff to supplement the locals.
-Access to IBT resources in the event of a strike.
-A Union with a "Cargo Focus"
-A Union that will include non flight deck personal, Dispatchers, Mechanics, Loadmasters...Think big picture here.
-New resources will be announced which will cement the cargo industry and bolster the need for a cargo focused union.

5) names/resumes of all involved in proposed local, and each individual directly above, all the way to Hoffa
Does this mean you are throwing your name in the hat to run?

6) what about www.irbcases.org? (http://www.irbcases.org?)
what about it? ALPA has a bunch of skeletons in their closet perhaps more than the IBT ever has. The difference is the IBT is working to clean house and fully supporting the move to build the Airline division into a major player in the industry.

7) What exact services from, and what monetary contribution to, Local 1224. Which I expect has their handsful with the great furloughs at that airline, and can they be expected to fulfill their obligation to us with such dire probelms at home? If so, are they foregoing their fudiciary responsibilities to their membership if they don't focus 100% of their effort during this time of intense hardship at their own airline?

Very good question!
-First we wait for the NMB.
-Once the NMB rules, that will determine the direction we proceed (single carrier status or not).
-Vote, IF IBT is selected then 1224 has promised to assist us in the transition to our own local.
-1224 is fully funded, they have cash reserves, Attorney's on staff and office staff able to handle the additional load during a 10-12 month transition to an independent local.
-The Legal/office staff are getting paid regardless so the only aspect we will need to pay for is the "consumables, phone, fax etc" aspects during the transition.
-As soon as the vote for IBT occurs we will be free to hire legal staff and office staff to assist in the transition until permanent staffing decisions can be made by the elected board of directors.

8) Why did NetJets leave teamsters(was the largest memebership in the airline division)? Why is there an uprising against IBT at RAH (2nd largest group in terms of memebership)?

NetJets made a decision to go independant, IBT did not fight it. They have the mass to run their own union, we don't. A lot was learned from how the NJ guys were treated, those issues if not already addressed will be addressed prior to our transition.

9) Why would our local recieve professional negotiators when none of the local 747 airlines did?
-Local 747 does however the issues has become a mini-ALPA. The staff is working for multiple carriers. When was the last time an ALPA negotiator sat in on a Polar or Atlas LOA negotiation to protect the CBA intent if ever?
-Under our Atlas/Polar local, we will hire and retain dedicated legal staff and negotiating staff to oversee and maintain the "directed focus" of our committees and leadership.

10) Most importantly, does the magazine subscription fulfill my montly mustache porn quota?

Does this mean you would be willing to step up and write a monthly pub for mailing to the crews?

DBW

[clyde87]

DBW,

Thank you for the time you took for thoughtful responses.

I was a ground-pounder IBT member prior to being an "Airline Division" member. If I didn't fly planes for a living, IBT is the way to go.

Like I've noted, and not to beat a dead horse, I was way less than pleased with the IBT. And I strongly feel if the main motivator is change for the sake of it, there are better ways to serve it.

Again...Thanks for a thoughtful and informational post.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

I still have my IBT pin from a few carriers ago. The IBT "fits" much better than does ALPA.

I completely understand the aprehension some folks may have with the IBT and the stories from the former Kalitta guys.

The one point that needs to be hammered home is that we are NOT going to be under 747. We are going to be under a clean slate Local, WE (Polar/Atlas) will have control over the direction of our representation which is 180 out from what we get today.

We will no longer have to beg for OUR money back from ALPA (much less borrow money or be directed on how to spend it). We approve our finances and determine how those resources are best applied. Think back to the reasons for the Boston Tea party. ALPA is King, didn't we do this before?

In fairness, ALPA does not nor have they ever understood this segment of our industry and yet they represent us...or do they even? All you have to do is read the Prater propoganda and you get the impression that Prater is being spoon fed what to say without a clue as to what the ramblings are about. Prater would not dare step into a room with our crews present and take questions about our situation. Im sure that unless he is reminded he wouldn't know who Polar or Atlas are.

What our crews need to understand is that if something isn't working "WE" will have the power to fix it. If we have an issue with one of our Aeromedical providers we have the power to switch providers. Don't like the legal advice, seek a new attorney or place one with specific experience needed for the situation on retainer etc.

Safety and engineering. Again just like Aeromedical and legal this too can be sourced out or placed on retainer. Many firms provide these services to members of the "ATA" and other partys with aviation related interests. When was the last time an airline failed to have top tier engineering support or specific proffessional advice during an investigation despite not being a member of "ALPA". ALPA just wants you to think they are the only game in town, YOUR dues money paid to them depends on that perception! And to clarify, several companies are already on retainer thru the IBT and are immediately available. We have the freedom to expand on those relationships as we see fit or circumstances dictate.

We also need to realize that every crewmember will have REAL legal representation in company matters. Imagine picking up the phone and speaking to a REAL attorney and getting REAL legal advice on company issues or conflicts. When was the last time a crewmember had ALPA legal go to bat for them much less call the company due to a contractual dispute or a chief pilot's interpretation gone bad?

The fact is this is going to happen. We want anybody that is willing to participate at any level to contact the organizers at www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com) Make sure you mention what area of expertise you may have, your willingness to particiate in our future is the key to our collective success.

DBW

[Furloughed]

Here's to hoping the ALPA logjam continues to stop the merger. Stripping pilots from their respective 121 certificates bodes ominously for the rest of us. As with American and the "B" scale - I'd hate to see what gets started at Atlas spread like a virus through the rest of the industry.

[dumbdumb]

Are you Nucking Futs???? Let the logjam continue????? You're crazy!!! There's absolutely nothing being resolved -- NOTHING!

Pay is way behind the curve so any raise we get will not even offset inflation. Let alone that negotiations are not even being done the way they should be. Yeah, talk for a few days have coffee and see you next month then have more coffee and see you later. Oh, the Holidays are here so let's postpone 'till after. It's time to start the bus -- even if it is the short one -- and get going enough is enough.

Polar crews getting ready to set up shop in ANC when more than likely there are enough combined crew members that live in ANC to support it.

And these are just two of the easy topics.

Last but not least . . . safety in numbers. The only thing I would like to see is if the Atlas certificate is sold then Atlas crews get first dibs on going if there's a choice and vice a versa for the Polar crews.

[L-38]

. . . safety in numbers. The only thing I would like to see is if the Atlas certificate is sold then Atlas crews get first dibs on going if there's a choice and vice a versa for the Polar crews.

Now here's a creative idea . .two separate but identical contracts, with two separate but combined seniority lists. We will call this a "bridged" contract. . .tied at the hip for labor clout and operating efficiency's, but with individual reversion rights for job protection!

This idea is outside the box, but so is management's convoluted proposal of one airline masquerading as two . . Fight fire with fire is the answer!

[nitty-gritty]

I remember something similar proposed union to union wise when the company was moving work back and fourth depending on who was in negotiations. A deal for guys being able to move from one side to the other with their seniority intact when the company moved the A/C and work.

I believe both times, it was shot down and/or altered after initial agreement due to one side saying "sure - only if you come over at the bottom of our list" after all the talking was done. So I doubt that any of it would be workable. I think some of that was in the transcripts that were posted some time back during the seniority merger arbitrations (HERE 1.8MB (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=43764)).

I'm curious how the Polar side thinks that the multi-certificate single pilot scoped group is any more or less secure than the current situation. I guess that is being referred to as being "stripped" from the certificate on one side here. We both have sooo many ways to have work moved at any given moment if current life has not been a indicator on both sides. I remember another guy showing off the Republic contract and their scope that kept the flying to them under the whole umbrella of companies under the holding company. Not having that on both Atlas and Polar sides is our big downfall on both the Atlas and Polar contracts. The Republic scope would probably be a better choice.

[L-38]

I believe . . it was shot down. . . due to one side saying "sure - only if you come over at the bottom. . "
A non-issue today, as a viable "like it or not" combined seniority list has since been begrudgingly agreed upon and/or will be enforced.

I'm curious how the Polar side thinks that the multi-certificate single pilot scoped group is any more or less secure than the current situation
Polar's perceived security in scope has yet to be proven worthless. . . If it does, then all Polar resistance is unnecessary, however if it does not . . . then this may be an answer.

[nitty-gritty]

I see the official word is out now that Jeff Carlson (formerly Spirit and NWA) is the VP of Flight Operations now replacing Mr. Cato.

Also noted was the official announcement that Polar will now only have ANC as base beginning Nov 1st. The remaining -200 will remain until the last part of Oct., then it will be gone along with the FE's being furloughed.

[Heilhaavir]

Thks nitty, any word on who will be the VP of Labor then, since the other JC was filling both positions?

[nitty-gritty]

Don't know yet. Waiting on pins and needles.

Not sure if they are going to step up from the ex lorenzo lieutenants like JC very much or just combine the positions of VP of Ops and HR as before.

[dumbdumb]

No update on the teamsters website but got a memo from the Polar MEC stating that the NMB decision should be out soon and which way they want us to vote.

Bueller? Any info?

[Deltabravowhiskey]

No update on the teamsters website but got a memo from the Polar MEC stating that the NMB decision should be out soon and which way they want us to vote.

Bueller? Any info?

That’s called a "wild guess". First, it's no secret that the NMB ruling is coming "at any time". The NMB makes rulings on their schedule alone (preferably sooner rather than later). Once a decision is tendered, everybody will hear about it as soon as it is released.

The bottom line is that the Polar MEC has no inside poop on the situation in regards to when a decision is going to be released. If anything the Polar MEC is the furthest removed from the situation which is why there is a push to get Polar crews involved to prevent mis/incorrect information from circulating.

ALPA/Teamsters and the MEC's are locked out of the (NMB ruling) process since this is a decertification movement of one agent for another. In other words the NMB will not leak information in this matter until a decision is made. Despite the Teamsters having in excess of 1.6 million members you would think that this holds a bit more clout with the NMB than ALPA with 50 thousand, yet nothing is being shared with any party until an official decision is rendered.

The ALPA MEC's (Atlas/Polar) MUST support ALPA or they WILL BE REMOVED from office by ALPA.

Regardless of what the MEC thinks they are not permitted to support anything outside the will of ALPA, ALPA by directive must come first, representing the needs and wants of crewmembers always comes second. Failure to tow that line will get your MEC ousted by ALPA national.

For information regarding the decertification of ALPA go to: www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/) which will be the primary source for any Teamsters information.


Every labor area has laws that govern the “game.” The NMB has established a set of rules. To change your union representation the following is the procedure.

50% +1 member must indicate to the NMB that they want to decertify their current representation. This is done by filling out, signing the attached card, and mailing it to the address on the card.
The NMB will then make sure that the members are employed by the Company and set an election. They also do a final determination as to who can vote.
The NMB will declare an election, stating how and when the election will be run.
Once a vote is cast, it cannot be changed.
New hires can vote.
The NMB will decide whether members on furlough may vote.
The election generally runs for 30 days.
50% + 1 member must vote for a union (any union) for there to be union representation.
A no vote or a vote not received will be counted as a vote for no union representation.
The union who gains a majority wins the election.It is imperative that everyone vote for the union of their choice. Not voting risks becoming at will employees.



DBW

[BELOWMINS]

DBW
While on the subject of a "wild guess", a quote from the AtlasforTeamsters message of August 10th, 2008.

"Our best guess for when the NMB will rule on the single carrier status issue is around Labor Day".

[dumbdumb]

DBW,

Yeah, I understand that the MEC's have to support National.

With the recent announcement of basing in ANC and me being spoiled by the teamsters web site with prompt updates, I was only curious.

Again, great information and from what I see, we can have the same insurance benefits, loss of license, etc. through teamsters. Is this correct? Again, only trying to get CORRECT information and not propaganda so that I and others may make a decsion based on facts.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

"We have already made arrangements through another insurance carrier to provide the same level of insurance at the same or less cost and all members will have access to aeromedical services as well."

Thus far we have been provided and have posted letters of insurability to provide a no lapse in coverage during any transition without exclusions or changes to existing policy's.

My suggestion is to contact the Atlas For Teamsters organizers www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com) and get any of the specifics you may require. The Insurance group that is putting together the packages are doing a great job to make sure we have everything our group(s) require.

DBW

[Beaver_Driver]

Just for info, one of the key players at the NMB has been out of the office for quite a while. He gets back this coming Wed. Regardless, nothing happens at the NMB with any great speed. The AtlasforTeamsters guys were making an educated guess on single carrier status based on the speed at which the NMB granted same to US Air/America West. They probably didn't know or count on the head guy being on vacation or gone.

[nitty-gritty]

The http://atlasforteamsters.com is up with their 20th message. Here is the flash audio page to listen Flash Audio (http://atlasforteamsters.com/audio/audioplayer.html) or go to the home page. Still waiting on the NMB. Just like the DMV, they don't get in a hurry for others.

Here is the document on commitment of insurance transferability IN PDF (http://atlasforteamsters.com/docs/atlaslolcommitment.pdf).

They got a lot of stuff on the site. Just takes some time to go through it.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/tls/logs.pl

[Drzito]

Question for Atlas/Polar pilots. Are they still hiring for STN with the european contract? I heard that the contract is much better, and since I live in Europe it makes sense to get paid euro/pounds. Do I need FAA rating, and what are my chances with 3100 hrs?
thanks for help
Drzito

[WhaleDriver]

No, everyone hired is now part of ALPA under the ALPA contract. AABO, as their are now known, is slowly shrinking as guys leave.

[anothercargopilot]

There has not been any hiring recently (for many years) at AABO nor will there be in the future. All Atlas hiring is for pilots on the ALPA contract and list. Currently STN is the most junior base for ATLAS F/O's and you can get paid in pounds if you'd like. Atlas STN trips originate in FRA, AMS, HHN, LUX, DXB and other cities as contracts shift. On PAPER they show deadheading from STN to first flight and back to STN after trip completion. As funny as this sounds, most STN based pilots have never operated out of or ever been to STN.

If you live near or can commute to STN there is GSS which is a separate operation that is 49% owned by Atlas. GSS does it's own hiring and there are many threads here regarding that operation and the hiring process there.

Cheers

[mustangsally]

Atlas is hiring from a pool of interviewed pilots. I'm confindent that there will be more interviewing and hiring by the second quarter of next year, 09. Yes, an FAA ticket is required, ATP, First Class medical. And you must have a minimum of 2000 hours in turbine aircraft. Turboprop, does not count. STN is the junior base. As a new hire you would be paided in US dollars.

Good luck

[Drzito]

Thanks for your help.

I guess i was misinformed by a stn pilot. He said it was better to get hired thru Atlas europe because he made a lot more than US based pilots, had better working rules, and did not belong to a union! Could this be possible? or was he lying to me?


I will also look into GSS.

Thanks, again

[flite idol]

He was not lying, but no one can be hired under those terms and conditions any longer.

[nitty-gritty]

The NMB has come out with there determination that Atlas/Polar are operating as a single carrier. They have it up on the http://www.atlasforteamsters.com site.

Looks like Polar will be involved whether they like it or not in the upcoming vote on decertifying ALPA.

[dumbdumb]

Guess it's time to turn this forum into an informational one so we can weigh the pros and cons of decertification. Keep the opinions out and factual information in and it should be OK. Although Polar is outnumbered when it comes to the 50% plus one vote to the "Yes." So we'll see. . .

[Beaver_Driver]

You are right although it should not be an us vs. them thing. It should be an intelligent choice for either Teamsters or ALPA based on the merits of either group, not on past animosity between the two pilot groups.

[nitty-gritty]

Considering that a lot of the animosity was driven by the current union playing "who is our favorite red headed step child today" between the two memberships will probably be the biggest determining factor.

[free at last]

Looks like those two groups are going to do. Very Happy for them.:):)

[zerozero]

Amen brother.

The whipsaw is almost gone from the management tool shed.

Next, we'll bury the hatchet.

It's time to look towards the future--and in this difficult economy there's safety and STRENGTH in numbers.

To hell with anyone that exploits division and fear.

:cool:

[L-38]

I suppose that this ruling now makes the nominations for Polar's next generation MEC to be moot. In fact, preliminary preparations should soon begin as to who will be involved with the new soon-to-be single MEC, be it ALPA or Teamsters.

Also, could this ruling have interpretive effect on the awaited Bloch decision (pre-mature furlough / dismissal of Polar's 50+ flight engineer crewmembers)?

[cruiserman]

AAWH wants you to vote the Teamsters in, they hate spending good money and getting no results. JC1 started this movement and I suppose JC2 will continue the push. What better way to go around contractual commitments, than to just write your own labor contract and have your boys push it.

20 Years ALPA, Never be a Teamster

[atlast]

Yup, Moving on...

[nitty-gritty]

Here is a letter from the Local 1224 President Dave Ross to the Atlas and Polar crewmembers on the recent NMB decision.

Also, he corrects some statements made in an earlier letter sent by ALPA President Prater.

http://atlasforteamsters.com/docs/Local_1224_letter.pdf

[Deltabravowhiskey]

AAWH wants you to vote the Teamsters in, they hate spending good money and getting no results. JC1 started this movement and I suppose JC2 will continue the push. What better way to go around contractual commitments, than to just write your own labor contract and have your boys push it.

20 Years ALPA, Never be a Teamster

You only prove one thing with your statement, that is emotion steers your judgment rather than logic.

93+% of Atlas crewmembers say otherwise and are fed up with our level of representation under ALPA.

I would caution you in using the term "never", As they say never say never especially in this industry. By all accounts you have 90 days to come to grips with this transition or you will be free to live up to your promise of "never" being a Teamster.

I have personally been steam rolled by ALPA (twice I might add), I won't say never instead I will CHOOSE by my vote for IBT to not allow it again.

I want to address the topic of who Atlas would prefer to negotiate with in respect to representation issues?

Option A: Pilots who have attended a 2 week negotiating course with no formal education in legal matters? Pilots who have no formal education in/or experience arguing or pleading real legal cases? Pilots that allow ego to drive them to sit across the table from real attorneys as they attempt to negotiate with them matters that pertain to “our” livelihood? Would the company not want Pilots to attempt to debate subject matter beyond the scope of their formal profession i.e. flying airplanes literally outside the scope of their expertise and practice.

Option B: A hired professional negotiator and full-time staff attorney(s) with the support of dedicated office staff all backed by years of practice in aviation law and labor relations? Your/Our professional Negotiator, Attorney(s) and legal teams (provided by IBT) will be backed by formal negotiating experience in addition to being members of the bar. These same professionals will be steered by a pilot committee comprised of "subject matter experts" who provide the required insight into our day to day operations and it's specific details to insure proper language is included in any CBA or LOA. In addition the company would have to deal with any issues in respect to contractual or legal matters with these same individuals for the life of the contract/CBA or LOA in addition to representing all crewmembers in all matters as they relate to the company and governing entities?

http://www.lot49.com/images/lot49/googlecase.jpg

Anyone who suggests that our interest are best left to Pilots negotiating with attorney's needs to read the following:


There is the old adage in criminal trials that describes a person who represents himself at trial: "He has a fool for a client."
Accordingly, attorneys maintain that they should handle all legal matters for their clients and that clients should not attempt to discharge legal matters on their own, no matter how simple. However, attorneys often do not heed their own advice. They will at times attempt to handle their own personal legal matters, which can result in some of the same problems confronted by non-professionals.
Competency

Often attorneys who represent themselves lack competency in the practice area.
Over the past 50 years, the practice of law has become exceedingly more complicated. Early in the 20th century, trial lawyers were capable of handling all litigation matters, whether they be criminal or civil. Many of the members of the Bar were sole practitioners in small law practices who handled all legal matters, from wills to criminal proceedings.
However, with the dawn of specialty litigation practices, such as anti-trust, securities and environmental, the generalist trial lawyer has been replaced by the specialist. Therefore, most practitioners when confronted by problems in their individual lives that are outside their practice area would be well served to engage an expert. For example, it is generally the case that an attorney engaged in a specialized practice such as employment law would be a poor family lawyer representing himself in his own divorce.
Similarly, while transactional matters were simple at one time, changes in the law, the enactment of voluminous regulations and the propagation of federal statutes that govern virtually every business or commercial transaction have made these matters the realm of experts.
Thus, even transactional lawyers, when handling a matter on their own behalf or for a partnership or business entity in which they're a stakeholder or member, should engage specialized assistance. Because of the specialized nature of most of their practices, transactional attorneys often do not have the experience necessary to represent themselves in matters outside their specialty areas.
For example, a securities attorney should probably not handle the legal documentation involved in the sale of his home. Perhaps, he would not understand the important distinctions between a general warranty deed and a special warranty deed or complex title issues. He could very easily make errors in the transaction adversely affecting him and his other partners.
Conflicts of interest

Issues involving conflicts of interest can become especially acute when an attorney represents a business entity in which he is also an investor.
Attorneys are routinely participants in investment partnerships, private businesses, banks, hospital districts and any number of commercial and not-for-profit businesses.
In instances in which these businesses or ventures may have multiple investors, lawyers should refrain from acting in a dual capacity as counsel as well as an investor. In many cases, professional liability insurance will exclude coverage for advice given by an attorney if he is acting in any role other than as a provider of legal advice.
Furthermore, many private company matters involving an attorney's advice to the board of directors or the attorney's partners may involve mixed issues of law and fact that would give the liability insurance company a basis for excluding coverage of any claims that arose out of that relationship on the theory that the attorney provided business advice not legal counsel.
In addition, the attorney's partners would be concerned when they approach the attorney for legal advice in a matter in which he is also involved as an investor. Are they truly getting the objective, disinterested advice of a legal adviser, or is the advice tempered by the fact the attorney has a commercial stake in the venture?
Consider the situation in which the attorney is giving advice to his partners in an insolvent business. Normally, in a situation involving the insolvency of a company, the legal adviser would advise the members of the board of directors that their duty has shifted from representing the interests of the stockholders to the creditors and that they risk personal liability if they ignore their responsibility to the creditors of the business. However, if the attorney is an equity holder in this business, he might not give strong advice to the board to consider liquidating the company to pay creditors because of a wish to preserve his investment in the enterprise.
Market terms

An attorney practicing outside his area of specialty is much less likely to understand the market in which he is operating and, consequently, is much more likely to misjudge what is acceptable in that market.
Practicing attorneys in a field, beyond the technical nuts and bolts of practicing law, develop expertise as to the customary and appropriate terms for a matter in a given instance, that is, what the particular market will allow.
Thus, an attorney who attempted to represent himself in a divorce might not understand the typical terms that a judge might accept in arrangements regarding custody of the couple's children. Or, if a wealthy plaintiff's lawyer became involved in a corporate transaction involving a preferred stock investment in a company, he would not understand the current reasonable and customary terms of the venture capital market (appropriate protection provisions, dividends that could be expected, and liquidation rights).
This knowledge beyond the four corners of the law would largely escape the attorney practicing outside his area of specialty.
Contacts

An attorney practicing outside his field would likely lack the contacts necessary to facilitate the swift, satisfactory completion of the matter. For instance, most commercial transactions involve the participation of third parties. Thus, an attorney trying to capitalize on a business idea that he may have identified should seek to engage attorneys that are familiar with the venture capital market place.
Access to the adviser's Rolodex would provide introduction to venture capital firms and financing firms that might not otherwise be available. Also, participation of attorneys who are experts and conversant in the area will expedite and comfort third party participants that the transaction has a valid base and has counsel competent in the particular area.



Charles D. Powell is a partner at Haynes and Boone LLP

I choose to have hired proffesionals represent and negotiate for me, 100% IBT!

DBW

[FirstStep]

It won't be long now before The IBT is voted in. I'm sure of that. There is no apathy amongst the Atlas crews, only the desire to right a wrong, and not let history repeat itself.
The REAL work will be in electing the right guys( or gals ) to represent us. Then, we have to learn to trust our leaders again.
I believe that what the IBT will be, is what we collectively make of it. We will not be a little wheel in a big cog, thats hampered by rot. We have the unique opportunity to make a new beginning. We are going to need enthusiasm, volunteers, and most importantly, the desire to work together ( Atlas and Polar ).

[Best Angle]

These are the same low lifes that represented Kitty Hawk crewmembers when we were teamsters. We were royally screwed by them. It was like negative representation. Lawyers, no matter what union or organization they say they represent, are still lawyers. Most of them are not worth the ammo....

[nitty-gritty]

I think you are talking about AIA being Teamsters. Kitty Hawk bought them and were non-Union and later during one of the downturns Connie bought them back or something like that a few years later with their Teamsters contract. More years later, the lone Kitty Hawk went ALPA and are belly up again. This time for good it looks like.

All that aside, lawyers are lawyers and you have to keep a tight reign on them. That is were your local leadership directs them and keeps a fire under their feet. Electing a solid leadership is a big player here. They seemed to have worked out for ABX looking at their contract on the "education" section of the http://atlasforteamsters.com site.

[Drzito]

Atlas-Polar

Alpa, or Teamsters? it does not matter who represents you! What it REALLY matters is the PEOPLE that represent you. What if Teamsters had your current MEC working for you? things would be exactly the same under a different name.
As an example who represents the Alas Europe pilots? NO ONE!, and yet they have better working conditions, better pay, no furloughs, downgrades etc at least that is was what I am gathering from reading this thread.

Make the right choice:ugh:

[free at last]

Have you ever heard of Socialism!:}

[MarkerInbound]

Haynes & Boone was the law firm that handled Kitty Hawk's first bankruptcy around 2000. They didn't represent the crewmembers. The crewmwmbers were trying to get ALPA on property, IBT tried to get their uninvited foot in the door, KH pilots had to form a non AFL-CIO inhouse union to call an election and then merged it with ALPA after a year.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Rather than start a seperate topic, I thought I might include this in the general Atlas/Polar thread(please forgive the intrustion if not correct): Noticed there is a classified ad showing a
Station Manager for hire at Wilimington, OH. I have seen the ad under both Atlas and Polar. As ILN is the DHL hub, I assume thats where the flying will
come from, but the question is, who is operating the flights on behalf of DHL, Polar or Atlas??

[WhaleDriver]

Today, it's Atlas. Starting the end of October, Polar's entire fleet will be doing DHL, with two Atlas planes continuing DHL service. Noone knows who will be doing the ILN runs.

[nitty-gritty]

Noticed that atlasforteamsters.com (http://atlasforteamsters.com) has a video on their site now from Local 1224 President Dave Ross at mms://208.9.199.45/ross_atlas_polar_2.wmv now. Their is also a letter at http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/docs/Local_1224_letter.pdf .

[dumbdumb]

Since a few of you seem to be in the loop thought I might get some answers here:

1) If Teamsters is voted in, what is the timeline for negotiations? Is there anything in the works referencing a CBA or do we just continue business as usual with delay after delay?

2) How are you as potential Teamsters addressing the real concern of the dry lease company that has been formed?

3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money.

To vote in Teamsters 'cause I'm mad at ALPA doesn't seem the road to go. I would like to get some insight from those that know. I see it as disaster to delay -- yet again -- a contract that is long overdue.

Facts only please when addressing the questions if you answer them.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Rumor on A.net has the UPS/DHL deal now collapsing, with the ILN
hub being closed and moved back to the old DHL hub at CVG. Have any
of you received crew bid sheets now for CVG instead of ILN????

[WhaleDriver]

1) If Teamsters is voted in, what is the timeline for negotiations? Is there anything in the works referencing a CBA or do we just continue business as usual with delay after delay?

There are provisions with the company to pick up where ALPA leaves off. Not that anything has been agreed to. Polar still hasn't agreed to protocols on how to move forward.

3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money.

I don't know where you think things are moving forward. NOTHING has been agreed to and one meeting a month ain't gonna get it done by this time next year. ALPA is already MONTHS behind their timeline. We have nothing to lose by going to Teamsters in this regard.

[dumbdumb]

Whaledriver -- thanks for the reply.

From what I've been told -- and this if directly from one of the negotiating team members -- the nine month clock to arbitration started when the seniority list was handed over. Therefore, if nothing is agreed to then it goes to arbitration on the joint CBA.

I dislike using the word "source" when giving information but that's what I have to do when he didn't give me permission to use his name.

I totally agree that these little meetings once a month aren't getting anywhere but again, I was told by a negotiating chairman that it's not going to matter -- unless of course Teamsters is voted in. He told me that they are counting on every Polar pilot voting no (which I don't see happening) and some of the Atlas pilots not backing up their change of representation. Thus, the failure of the 50% plus one vote needed to change.

I'm with Polar and still undecided . . .but leaning more and more towards Teamsters. And now with the rumor, which I hope is true, of the DHL/UPS deal being shot down there might be some light at the end of the tunnel that's not the damn train.

[geardownflaps20]

Quote:
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money. end quote
---
For 9 years Atlas pilots have been paying 2% for help in finding fair and adequate pilot representation. They have never recieved fair and adequate representation. Also, in every ALPA-influenced decision between Atlas and Polar, the Atlas pilots lost, like a red-haired stepchild. Although ALPA is capable of great things for pilots when facing the non-pilot world, ALPA does, and continues to, get an "F" grade for fairly settling in-house matters, and has put the ALPA stamp of approval on possibly the worst labor contract that has ever been foisted on a bunch of trusting, naive pilots.

The years of unfair or ambivalent ALPA has left Atlas pilots with a complete unwillingness to continue paying 2% tribute to ALPA. It is not that the Teamsters are so good, it is only that ALPA has burned a bridge, poisioned the well, and smells like a a rotting, fetid sheep carcass in the Utah desert. "Anything but ALPA" is a strong feeling in the Atlas ranks; Atlas pilots have never agreed on anything, and to get 90% approval (just getting more than 50% to even vote) is remarkable. So Atlas pilots voting for ALPA is like Nelson R. Mandella voting for a blond president of SA; not likely this decade.

[FirstStep]

GearDownFlaps20... you hit the nail on the head.

Insanity is often described as "trying the same damm thing, and expecting a different result". :ugh: Well, ALPA has let us down, time and time again. I feel like Charlie Brown in A Peanuts Comic, with Lucy always pulling the football away at the last minute....Always promising not to. And Charlie is such a looser for believing she has changed.
Teamsters is a viable alternative. And before you can say, "They changed"[ALPA], ask yourself what their motive is... (A) Loss of dues?, or (B)Loss of face possibly?, or (C) Are they now trying to Right A Wrong?. Hmmm... I am going with A&B. Thats my guy feeling, and it is about time I began listening to it.
If I were a betting man, I would guess 95% of Atlas would vote IBT. I personally know of 2 who won't. Mabye there is hope for their lost souls...

[nitty-gritty]

Looks like there is going to be an open meeting in MIA on the 15 for Atlas and Polar alike. Info is on the 10-10-2008 message at http://atlasforteamsters.com. While I have noted that the Polar MEC prefers to crash other's meetings, every AAWW Holdings guy including the Polar membership is invited in this AAWW combined crew meeting for Teamsters.

[BrowntailWhale]

With regards to the DHL/UPS deal, the latest info is that DHL is in much direr straits than originally thought. Therefore, UPS will also be doing DHL's international airlift to/from the US. UPS is going to accomplish this by purchasing the six 747-400s from Polar with the approval of DHL since they own 49% of Polar.

[Beaver_Driver]

ahhahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahahahaahahaha.

[Po Boy]

As the Human Torch from the Fantastic 4 would say " Flame On" :}

[WhaleDriver]

And DHL is going to do this with their 25% voting rights....rrrrrrrighttttt.

[dumbdumb]

Well, they could . . . everything is for sale for the right price!

Back to the thread:

If I'm overseas and thrown in jail -- what is Teamsters position on this. Can I call an attorney and have them represent me? What about accidents in another country? Are we covered??

For those of you that used to be Teamsters tell us why you decided to go to other avenues.

From what I've gathered thus far the only thing I see is lower dues and disgruntlement towards ALPA. I can't see jumping ship just because I'm mad at "Dad." I see this as only delaying a contract that is way over due.

[elevenkilo]

The delay in our contract negotiations was caused by ALPA.......

The 270 day clock is running and doesn't matter if we are ALPA or IBT. Changing unions is not going to change the time clock. We are stuck negotiating in a recession because of ALPA's inability to do the right thing for all it's members.

[Beaver_Driver]

If I'm overseas and thrown in jail -- what is Teamsters position on this. Can I call an attorney and have them represent me? What about accidents in another country? Are we covered??
Here is a direct quote from Dave Bourne on some comments about the Kalitta accident in Columbia

"....I wanted everyone to know that as the new Director,,,it will not be business as usual. We have a problem, WE WILL BE THERE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD,,,that is what being in a union means to me and should mean to everyone else."

[nitty-gritty]

As to the ALPA's legal help after an incident, we at Atlas have first hand knowledge after the DUS incident which later turned out to be the fault of the airport for reporting incorrect braking action reports. They ended up buying the A/C.

The captain called ALPA legal at the airport after the incident and then got a 15 minute dissertation on what ALPA legal lawyer couldn't do and no advice. Not particularly helpfull at all. Luckily the captain was ex FAA and initiated getting the evidence with the local CAA that resulted in the finding of the airport being at fault for the incorrect braking action reports.

ALPA legal might be helpfull in the US, but internationally they suck.

As to the Teamsters, the local has a lawyer on staff who also has access to other lawyers in specific disciplines when needed.

[Best Angle]

Nitty,

Don't believe there is a loss of license package with the Teamsters that we enjoy with ALPA. ALPA has always had a top notch aero medical dept. as well.

Also, what is the Teamsters position on crew leasing?

[v1andgo]

Why don't you tell us a bit more about crew leasing.
If that happens it is all over regardless of what Union we belong to.
But if you could enlighten us on how this works for an Airline operating under 121 I am ready to learn.

[WhaleFR8]

Why don't you tell us a bit more about crew leasing.
If that happens it is all over regardless of what Union we belong to.
But if you could enlighten us on how this works for an Airline operating under 121 I am ready to learn.

.......huh?

[Best Angle]

Here you go...

"At such time as a single collective bargaining agreement covering ATLAS and theretofore COMPANY Flight Crewmembers (the “SCBA”) is negotiated and takes effect (the “SCBA Date”), all COMPANY Flight Crewmembers, with the exception of those retained by COMPANY in managerial positions, such as directors of operations, maintenance, safety and quality assurance, and chief pilot, shall be transferred to ATLAS and become ATLAS employees, and ATLAS shall thereafter provide qualified Flight Crewmembers to COMPANY in sufficient numbers and of sufficient qualifications to operate the Aircraft. Each Flight Crewmember assigned by ATLAS from and after the SCBA Date pursuant to this Agreement shall be referred to as an “Assigned Crewmember” and a crew complement adequate to operate an Aircraft from and after the SCBA Date shall be referred to as an “Assigned Crew.” The term “Assigned Crewmember” shall be deemed a subset of the term “Flight Crewmember” and the term “Assigned Crew” shall be deemed a subset of the term “Flight Crew.”

[WhaleFR8]

Don't believe there is a loss of license package with the Teamsters that we enjoy with ALPA. ALPA has always had a top notch aero medical dept. as well. ALPA aeromedical is contracted out. The same "contractor" is available to anyone. Same with LOL insurance - except in the Teamster case you will not have to pay the 5% premium that ALPA tacks on top of the cost. All of these questions have been answered on the atlasforteamsters.org site.

[WhaleFR8]

Here you go...

"At such time as a single collective bargaining agreement covering ATLAS and theretofore COMPANY Flight Crewmembers (the “SCBA”) is negotiated and takes effect (the “SCBA Date”), all COMPANY Flight Crewmembers, with the exception of those retained by COMPANY in managerial positions, such as directors of operations, maintenance, safety and quality assurance, and chief pilot, shall be transferred to ATLAS and become ATLAS employees, and ATLAS shall thereafter provide qualified Flight Crewmembers to COMPANY in sufficient numbers and of sufficient qualifications to operate the Aircraft. Each Flight Crewmember assigned by ATLAS from and after the SCBA Date pursuant to this Agreement shall be referred to as an “Assigned Crewmember” and a crew complement adequate to operate an Aircraft from and after the SCBA Date shall be referred to as an “Assigned Crew.” The term “Assigned Crewmember” shall be deemed a subset of the term “Flight Crewmember” and the term “Assigned Crew” shall be deemed a subset of the term “Flight Crew.”

I am not sure where that comes from, but it sounds like AACS (which has since turned into AABO) contract language which has been negated by the LOA that says that Atlas will no longer hire for that entity.

[Best Angle]

Whale...

It comes from AAWH "Flight Services" agreement between Atlas and Polar. They plan to lease crews to Polar after the merger. It is all about certificate seperation.

FLIGHT SERVICES AGREEMENT
Between
Atlas Air, Inc.
and
Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc.
DATED JUNE 28, 2007
FLIGHT SERVICES AGREEMENT
THIS FLIGHT SERVICES AGREEMENT (the/this “Agreement”), made and entered into this 28th day of June, 2007 (the “Effective Date”), between ATLAS AIR, INC., a Delaware Corporation, having its principal operating office at 2000 Westchester Avenue, Purchase, New York 10577, USA (“ATLAS”) and POLAR AIR CARGO WORLDWIDE, INC., a Delaware Corporation having its principal place of business at 2000 Westchester Avenue, Purchase, NY 10577, USA (“COMPANY”) (each, a “Party”; collectively, the “Parties”).

[Best Angle]

Whale, you are right on.... It does sound like AACS.....

[nitty-gritty]

Sounds like we need scope similar to Republics contract in the new merged CBA (SCBA). BTW they are Teamsters.

The problem is that you are arguing a point that is in motion that you cannot change. Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. was the entity created and to sell DHL a 49 percent portion of Polar Air Cargo, inc for the block space - ACMI agreement that included Atlas services under ACMI. It is why Atlas is flying under it now. The merger is in motion and PID set and awaiting a final CBA. Whether we are ALPA or Teamsters it will go forward and you will not be able to STRIKE as many Polar crewmembers seem to think. It will be an agreed to merged contract by all or an arbitrated merged contract. The holding out of the Polar contingent that Prater will pull the circuit breaker on the merger if ALPA is kept in place after the upcoming representation vote may be a hope for your group since he obviously prefers to represent Polar vs Atlas, but the ALPA bylaws say he can't do it along with the ALPA legal department. I wouldn't doubt him saying "sue me if you don't like it" to the Atlas crewmembers with all the resources (our collective dues) at his disposal.

As to Loss of License in your earlier post, there is a commitment letter from a vendor already. Medical services and legal services available also.

You can buy services as above, but you can't buy representation. ALPA chose not to represent Atlas along with a number of other "B" carriers, particularly during the Prater term, and here we are with a number of councils initiating decertifications. Heard Midwest Express is doing it now.

[L-38]

Nitty - Is this how you see AAWH's organization tree ?

.................................................... AAWH ...............................
.......................................................... I ...................................
.......................................................... I ..................................
.......................................................... I ...................................
Polar Air Cargo WorldWide ................. .Atlas Air Inc ...
........................ I ................................................... I ................
........................ I ................................................... I .................
........................ I ................................................... I..................
...... Polar Air Cargo (51%) ............................ AABO ............
............................................................ ......................................
............................................................ .....................................

[Intruder]

AACS (or AABO now) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Atlas Air, Inc, not AAWH.

[L-38]

Thank's - The chart is corrected.

[Beaver_Driver]

hmmmm.....

I don't see ANY mention of "Polar Air Cargo" on the company web-site anymore so I think your model is wrong..

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc., a leading provider of global air cargo services, is the parent company of Atlas Air, Inc. (http://www.atlasair.com/aa/default.asp) and majority owner of Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (http://www.polaraircargo.com/) Trading symbol is: Nasdaq: AAWW

and

Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar) is a global leader in the international air cargo market, specializing in time-definite, airport-to-airport scheduled freight service. The Company provides a critical link in the international logistics chain by connecting major cargo markets in the Americas, Asia, Europe and the Far East via frequent Boeing 747 freighter service. Polar also promises a strong express network through its partnership with DHL Express, which owns a 49% stake in Polar. Polar is 51% owned by Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (AAWW) (http://www.atlasair.com/), and is based in Purchase, N.Y.

I think "Polar" as we all knew it - is gone.

[Intruder]

I believe you're right. PACW is "Polar"; there is no "Polar Air Cargo" below it.

DHL and AAWH both own pieces of PACW.

AAI is wholly owned by AAWH.

AABO is wholly owned by AAI.

[L-38]

Then this must be the true sight picture ... simple name change with "Worldwide" added, and no change in structure (except considering DHL's investment).

............................................................ .............. AAWH ............................................................ ..........
............................................................ .................. I ............................................................ ................
............................................................ .................. I ............................................................ ................
............................................................ .................. I ............................................................ ................
.................................PACW - (Polar) - 51% .............. .Atlas Air Inc ..............................................
............................................................ .................................. . I ..........................................................
............................................................ .................................. . I ..........................................................
............................................................ .................................. . I...........................................................
............................................................ ............................... AABO .....................................................
.................................................. ............................................................ ..............................................
.................................................. ............................................................ ..............................................

[Intruder]

Just put DHL on the same line with AAWH, with its 49% line pointed at PACW, and you have a more complete picture. Of course, then you might get into Astar, Airborne, etc, and it would get REALLY messy...

[L-38]

Ta Da!

...............................DHL (et all)........................ AAWH .................................................. ....................
.........................................I........ ............................ I .................................................. ..........................
.........................................I......... ........................... I .................................................. ..........................
.........................................I....... ............................. I .................................................. ..........................
.................................PACW - (Polar) - 51% .............. .Atlas Air Inc ...............................................
.................................................. ............................................ . I .................................................. ........
.................................................. ............................................ . I .................................................. ........
.................................................. ............................................ . I................................................... ........
............................................................ ................................. AABO ......................................................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......

[Best Angle]

Thought AABO was under AAWH, but hadn't kept up... Did AABO crews finally join ALPA?

[nitty-gritty]

NO. AABO part never did and the RLA wouldn't allow them to be incorporated within our Atlas ALPA group. Exactly why Atlas management created it offshore prior to an Atlas ALPA contract. There are 50-60 replacement pilots remaining at this time at AABO. I believe they reached an all time high of around 180-200 non-union replacement pilots while concurrently furloughing the same amount of ALPA Atlas guys prior to our contract.

Also, about 150 at Atlas were furloughed along the same time line as Atlas management moved Atlas A/C and flying to Polar. All while Polar hired the same number off the street when we first unionized and in the years of negotiations for our first contract. We had no protections under title 6 "status quo" of the RLA as Polar enjoyed after their being acquired by Atlas. They were already unionize and had a contract at that time which entitled them certain protections that Atlas crewmembers did not have available to them under the RLA (Railway Labor Act). Resulting in those "lorenzo" tactics against Atlas crews.

How quickly history is forgotten. Then again, who cares when you are reaping the benefits of others problems.

[Furloughed]

How quickly history is forgotten. Then again, who cares when you are reaping the benefits of others problems.


I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here.

Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman

[layinlow]

You hit the nail on the head. I finally got my furlough notice. Can I call myself furlough 2?

[Furloughed]

Sorry to hear that.

I was having so much fun I thought I'd post some more ( I've edited out some excess text but if Nitty asks - I'll post the whole thing again unedited):

Opinion Concerning Remedy
I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here

“… the record did show that there was a decline in 2006 of AMC and ACMI flying. Both types of flying ... are flying principally done by Atlas, not by Polar; yet, it was Polar rather than Atlas that remarkably suffered the furloughs and reductions in status.” .. the decline in Polar flying was not found to be for economic reasons

Polar’s financial data revealed that the operating revenues for scheduled service increased in 2006 over 2005 for the time period shown ...the operating revenues for ACMI service declined in the same time period ..despite th(is) trend .. Atlas’ flying for Polar in the same time period spiked sharply upward .. resulting in furloughs and downgrades at Polar

In sum, then, I conclude that there is a direct causal relationship between Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business under the Alliance Agreement and the Polar furloughs and reductions in status

[PCLoadLetter]

Surely you understand that arbitrators' findings are bogus unless they go in favor of the Atlas pilots.... :=

[nitty-gritty]

Surely you understand that arbitrators' findings are bogus unless they go in favor of the Atlas pilots.... :=

Surely you understand that it is OK to take Atlas jobs (long before the referred to arbitration could have even exist and how you probably got hired originally) if Polar benefits from it.

If you are looking for sympathy, your looking in the wrong place.

It's like having sympathy for the pet cat that choked to death on the pet bird.

[nitty-gritty]

http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/img/atlasworldwide.jpg
An Email Message: Oct 21, 2008

PDF link to NMB Dispute Letter (http://click.icptrack.com/icp/relay.php?r=12823744&msgid=226235&act=PR5Q&c=245448&admin=0&destination=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasforteamsters.com%2Fdocs%2F Disputeltr10-21-08.pdf)


Atlas Worldwide Crewmembers,
The NMB has just announced that we have sufficient authorization cards; thus the NMB is holding an election to resolve the dispute as to which organization shall represent the crewmembers of Atlas Worldwide Holdings. The Company now has five days to supply everyone's address on labels so that the balloting materials can be mailed out. The voting will be by internet and telephone. We have requested that the NMB election period remain open for 30 days in order to allow everyone a chance to vote. It is very important that everyone vote so that each crewmember is counted, so that every voice is heard in favor of representation.
ALPA is desperate to keep its dues base. You can expect to hear them attack the Teamsters and beg for another chance. Again, this election is about dedicated representation. ALPA has neither the structure nor the history to provide representation for small carriers. The Teamsters do.
Attached is the NMB finding.

ALPA cannot be fixed. I am ready to remove ALPA by

Voting for Teamsters
I invite you to join me and form a true trade union.
Dave Allen, Chairman

Looks like it's coming to a conclusion.

[layinlow]

Furlough, how much do you think we will get out of this? I hope we hurt them bad. And when the cards come for representation, ALPA, period!!
And you do know that this ruling opens a whole new chapter in the last arbitrtion ruling when the arbitor deferred the question of Atlas flying Polar to this ruling? This ought to be interesting to say the least.

[Fr8Dog]

"Furlough, how much do you think we will get out of this? I hope we hurt them bad. And when the cards come for representation, ALPA, period!!
And you do know that this ruling opens a whole new chapter in the last arbitrtion (sp) ruling when the arbitor(sp) deferred the question of Atlas flying Polar to this ruling? This ought to be interesting to say the least".


Layinlow, Please explain to me how your 120 + or - are going to have that much impact on the Atlas 700 +. The math does not work out from the way I look at it. But then again most of what you usually post doesn't either! :ugh:

[Beaver_Driver]

Fr8
Layinlow is a Polar FE who took a leave several years ago to work for FedEx. He just can't seem to let go and I really think he enjoys stirring the pot. I suggest you ignore him. He has a better job than most of us. One has to wonder about the mental health of someone who keeps coming back to this. Perhaps we should just call him Fonzy.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

For Immediate Release Contact:
October 22, 2008 Leslie Miller (202) 624-8734
[email protected]
NMB SETS REPRESENTATION ELECTION
FOR ATLAS, POLAR FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS

National Mediation Board Schedules Voting For Nov. 19 Through Dec. 19
(Washington, D.C.) – The National Mediation Board (NMB) today authorized an election at
Atlas Air, Inc. and Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, with voting set for November 19 through
December 19, 2008, Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa announced today.
“We are looking forward to welcoming the Atlas and Polar flight crewmembers to the
Teamsters soon,” Hoffa said. “After the flight crewmembers vote to join the Teamsters, we will
negotiate a strong contract that will address their concerns and protect their interests. The
Teamsters are a strong aviation union that will also provide accountable representation. The
flight crewmembers will have an independent local union backed by the 1.4 million member
Teamsters with the necessary resources to help them win a more secure future.”
The Atlas and Polar crewmembers are currently represented by an association, the Air Line
Pilots Association (ALPA), but the association does not have the focus, strength and cargo
experience of the Teamsters to represent their interests. The Teamsters will also allow the
crewmembers more decision-making power through their Teamster local union for the issues
that matter most to them.
A total of nearly 900 Atlas and Polar flight crewmembers are eligible to join the Teamsters.
Founded in 1903, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents 1.4 million
hardworking men and women in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.

[Best Angle]

Nitty & DBW...

What is the Teamsters position on crew leasing??

[nitty-gritty]

Here is a thought and a point of contribution well over due by the Polar contingent.

Why don't you tell us how ALPA and Polar are going to fix the past that they willingly allowed to happen among our mutual councils and how ALPA plans to finally start representing the Atlas crews interests. It took a decertification vote to get their notice to initiate a merger they promised years ago.

I think it is time the Polar side contributes something of substance on these boards judging from the lack there of over the years. By that, I mean something of substance instead of the typical one liners. Judging from history, it will probably circle around your councils sole self interests as it always has.

Having said all of that, what is your plan (ALPA) on crew leasing in this case? Stalling a merger for the how many years? Yep, that ought to work.:cool:

[Deltabravowhiskey]

An official "Position" will NEVER be discussed in an open forum like this.

It is safe to say that any business opportunity that increases the staffing requirement is a good thing for the entire crew force.

I recently heard some disturbing news from one of our Polar brothers. He was under the impression based on what he had been told within the Polar side of the house that Protocols and section's of the new CBA had been "TA'd" I told him he had been lied to.

Nothing has been agreed to much less signed or TA'd.

www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com) is at this time the only source of official information. Even ALPA has not set up any website or single source of information in order for "our" crews to go to to find factual documents or information pertaining to the upcoming vote for representation.

I strongly suggest that everybody (Polar and Atlas) sign up for blast mail. You will recieve information as it becomes available and also be directed to source documents which have been posted on the www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com) website.

DBW

[WhaleDriver]

I just spoke to the Atlas Chief pilot. No protocols or sections agreed to. He is sitting around in Washington waiting for ALPA to get their $hit together.

We are more that four months behind with ALPA in charge, and that is their timeline that they invented to motivate Atlas guys to stick with them? A two to three month delay for Teamsters to get it up and running is nothing to worry about. We're talking Sep '09 at best or worst, depending on how you see what these delays have led us to.

[layinlow]

Beaver..you are s-o-o-o-o-o wrong and way behind. I am not wanting to stir the pot as you say but get what is due. Trust me, when this is arbitration is over the day I am off the forum at out of Atlas's life. Unless I get lucky enough (sic) to do an SAI in Purchase.

[Best Angle]

Nitty & DBW..

I would think that the Teamsters position would be the same as ALPA's. Representing a crew force from a crew leasing company with a contract that is not attached to any airline by scope would not be desirable. The contract is pretty much worthless without it.

I would also think that the Atlas crewmembers would want to get the best contract possible from this merger. By changing to the Teamster's representation for the merger, I believe we have played into the company's hands.

IMHO, I don't have big problems with being represented by IBT, as I already have been for about 15 years. They were mostly interested in collecting our dues, though. We have been better off with ALPA.

I know that the Atlas crews think they got a bad deal with ALPA. I don't think it was anything personal, ALPA just knew where this was all headed.

The best path for all of us is to merge under ALPA, then lets talk about changing to IBT at a later time. Cato is gone now. We don't have to do it his way.

[WhaleDriver]

BA,
I know you won't believe this because you've been told otherwise, but CATO HAD NOTHING to do with the Teamster's movement. In fact, when he found out, he called the Atlas MEC and asked what the heck was going on.

He knew ALPA, and had little or no experience dealing with Teamsters. He knew he could out do Pilot negotiators, but not the pro's that Teamsters will pay for.

Bottom line, Cato being gone changes nothing! Sorry.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Best Angle, first off I am a pilot nothing more nothing less. I will not nor will I ever claim to have the experience or the background to negotiate, that I will leave to a Proffessional Negotiator, Attorney and staff to determine the best way to position our group in contractual matters.

Much has been discussed but to what extent and the plan well that shall remain behind closed doors.

By the way those doors are open only to Atlas AND Polar crews who choose to be part of this solution...Interested?

Any Polar crewmember who wants to be involved is STRONGLY urged to contact the staff at www.atlasforteamsters.com (http://www.atlasforteamsters.com) and get in on YOUR future.

DBW

[WhaleDriver]

BA,

Here's another issue to consider. The word is out than your MEC is implying that if Polaroids vote ALPA and ALPA wins, he'll push to get an Polar LEC. Just what we need, more divisiveness. We would just get more of the fighting we've had since 2001. Good for management, bad for pilots.

I don't think most of us, Polar or Atlas would want to deal with that crap anymore. It's time to move on and join forces, in spite of the pi$$ poor timing.

[PCLoadLetter]

If you are looking for sympathy, your looking in the wrong place.
"Sympathy"? Hardly. I'm just tired of your incessant "Everything Polar Bad, Everything Atlas Good" rhetoric. I don't feel like investing the time to go at it with you for REAL (I might as well try to turn you on your choice of Presidential candidate, religion, or abortion), so I appreciate it when someone else does. I'm shocked by anyone on EITHER side who can't EVER recognize that "the other guy" might even occasionally have a point, so you can shut your yap before you try to make the predictable non-point that I myself don't recognize that. Some people I've worked with at Polar are just as tiresome as reading YOUR tirades... I look forward to working with them again just about as much as I look forward to working with the likes of YOU.

[BELOWMINS]

Whale...
Since the company has decided to model their operation using Continental/Continental Air Micronesia as a template why shouldn't the union representation do the same?

[Best Angle]

Belowmins..

The company is saying that the model will look like CO/AM, but thier intentions are clearly different. Continental does not LEASE crewmembers to Air Mike. Read the crew services agreement once again. Atlas intends to LEASE crews to the Polar certificate, post merger. The implications of this scam are huge.

[Best Angle]

quote:

"We would just get more of the fighting we've had since 2001. Good for management, bad for pilots.

I don't think most of us, Polar or Atlas would want to deal with that crap anymore. It's time to move on and join forces, in spite of the pi$$ poor timing."

Whale... we have not been fighting with you. A common misconception on this forum. And you are right, we don't want to put up with this crap, we have been forced into it.

[BELOWMINS]

Best Angle
Agree with you completely as to this being a scam. Since the company has publicly stated their intentention to use CO/AM as a model for their operation then the pilots should insist on a CO/AM type coverage in any SCBA. The scope, sucessorship and movement of pilots from certificate to certificate should follow at least the outline of CO/AM. The CO/AM model was not the pilots choice but the companys choice. We are going into this SCBA negotiations with no real idea of the companys intentions and no requirement they follow even their very vague stated intentions. It is sort of like buying a house and seeing it for the first time after you' ve signed all the papers.
Just sign on the dotted line and we'll work out the details later.

[Furloughed]

Furlough, how much do you think we will get out of this?

I hope some consideration can be made for those of us who were directly harmed: not some 6 month newbie getting a leg up while we got the boot.

[CargoMatatu]

:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::{:yuk:

[nitty-gritty]

Noted that ALPA National forced a signing of negotiation protocols for Polar. Circumventing your MEC. How is your group feeling about that?

How is commuting to your only base (ANC) looking like for your guys in November and the bid lines up there? It has been tough for Atlas guys with gateway airline tickets to get there, especially during the summer months. How many days off do you plan on having to burn per month commuting for your guys let alone hotels costs?

Anyhow, http://atlasforteamsters.com has a new message out.

[BELOWMINS]

Nitty
You enjoy other peoples pain way too much but then again it's Polar pain so they deserve it.

[L-38]

so they deserve it
That was a below min's comment for airmen speak, Belowmins

[nitty-gritty]

As they say, "you reap what you sow" and Polar has planted plenty of pain. You just have a short and selective memory of it all and how it was used.

Anyhow, any answers? Any game plan other than the continued stalling?

Here was the Council 072 VARS Atlas Oct 26,2008 (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=44032)

[Furloughed]

Noted that ALPA National forced a signing of negotiation protocols for Polar. Circumventing your MEC. How is your group feeling about that?

These protocols: Polar was keeping the strike option open but has now been forced by Atlas to accept binding arbitration over any open contractual items with the company. Do I understand this correctly?

[CR2]

N516MC went to its final resting place in Roswell today...

[WhaleDriver]

CR2, it's not final, just being parked until the Polar/Atlas merger is settled, one way or the other. Or until it is needed and Atlas is willing to deal with more arbitrations.

[Beaver_Driver]

It will be going back to Atlas before too long. The merger is settled and there will be no more arbitrations.

[CR2]

This thread and its predecessors have always baffled me. I joined Atlas not so long ago, working in Purchase (one of the reasons why I stopped moderating, became a conflict of interest). Wouldn't it be better if the hatchet could finally be buried? Just get on with making loadsamoney and burying the opposition? And getting more in our pockets in the process?

I remember the fighting about using an Atlas a/c for a Polar flight and vice-versa.... it still happens. And why not. Does PO simply not operate a flight because there is no a/c available that has PO painted on the side? Does Atlas not accept a lucrative charter because no suitably painted aircraft is free?
Do we ferry a GT -200 from the US to Europe when we could put a PO load on it and release the PO aircraft to do something else?

Am I making sense here? I know I make sense to myself :}

[Furloughed]

Does PO simply not operate a flight because there is no a/c available that has PO painted on the side? Does Atlas not accept a lucrative charter because no suitably painted aircraft is free?
Do we ferry a GT -200 from the US to Europe when we could put a PO load on it and release the PO aircraft to do something else?

Nobody has a problem with that arrangement. When it becomes morphed into a transfer of Polar flying to Atlas causing 60% of the Polar crews to end up in the unemployment line, why, people can become upset with that.

[CR2]

I really don't want to open old wounds, just wanted to get that off my chest :8

[L-38]

.Does PO simply not operate a flight because there is no a/c available. . ?With Polar's fleet so drastically cut that there will be no aircraft available, you have re-surfaced a sticky wicket here Mr. moderator. What's wrong with someone sitting in your chair while eating your breakfast? After all, they are hungry too . . . no need to answer, the arbitrator will speak next.
morphed into a transfer of Polar flying . . .. 60% of the Polar crews . . end up in the unemployment line

[layinlow]

Forgive me L-38 but I thought the arbitrator did speak and it is just a matter of what he will do about it. Am I wrong?

[nitty-gritty]

Nobody has a problem with that arrangement. When it becomes morphed into a transfer of Polar flying to Atlas causing 60% of the Polar crews to end up in the unemployment line, why, people can become upset with that.

So it's OK to furlough Atlas crews as it was done in the past to Polar's favor and now forgotten about how Polar got those gains and expansion at Atlas crew expense, but not OK to do it to Polar crews?

Sounds like typical ALPA mentality, "I've got mine, pull up the rope."

[anothercargopilot]

good grief........here we go again......:ugh:

[CR2]

Should have kept my bloody mouth shut shouldn't I???

Ignore that it says Moderator next to my name, it hasn't been fixed yet. Burocracy takes its time....

[742]

Should have kept my bloody mouth shut shouldn't I???



A feeling shared by many of us from time to time.

This merger should have been done years ago. May a curse be on both the union "leadership" and the managment "leadership" that have not only let it fester, but played it like some kind of game.

[dumbdumb]

What a joke . . .sometimes I think this board is built and ran by kindergartners. The my daddy is bigger than your daddy mentality. Let the SH$t go, man! Bunch of crybabies! Probably the same type that can't sit on a layover and talk about other things besides work. MOVE ON!

Sorry . . .figure if we're going to have kids here someone needs to step up and be the "dad" and say knock it off.

Now Nitty -- you're next: A lot of information here about the vote. BUT care to divuldge where your MEC and you decide to say that the Polar MEC was forced to sign some protocol aggreements when NOTHING was signed? My source is our MEC attorneys.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

At the meeting of the ALPA Executive Council in September, I had agreed with ALPA President John Prater that negotiations could not continue until Protocols existed with all parties. Monday when out team and the company met, only one member from the Polar Negotiating team showed up with instructions from his MEC that he was not to "negotiate anything". At this point our negotiating team took a caucus while Tom Low and I appealed to ALPA President John Prater and the Executive Council to intervene on our behalf. That intervention came late Thursday afternoon when an agreement was reached with ALPA National and the Polar MEC regarding Protocols. This has long been a contentious issue that has stymied the negotiations process needlessly. I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank Captain John Prater and all of the members of the Executive Council for their patience and determination to see this major obstacle overcome.

Now Nitty -- you're next: A lot of information here about the vote. BUT care to divuldge where your MEC and you decide to say that the Polar MEC was forced to sign some protocol aggreements when NOTHING was signed? My source is our MEC attorneys.

You need to take your blinders off...

First off your MEC does not have an attorney, the attorney works for ALPA not your MEC. The Attorney does not have to provide any information to you since they only have allegiance and a responsibility to ALPA the association, They are in place to protect ALPA not the Polar crews.

The representatives on the Polar MEC aren't exactly telling you the whole truth. They are correct they never signed anything...the protocols were forced on you by Capt. Prater and ALPA. Like it or not there are in fact protocols in place forced by ALPA the association and despite your MEC's best efforts to subvert the process.

In a few days ALPA will be posting the notes and resolution under the BOD link on the ALPA page at which time you can pull up all the references for the protocols which are now officially in place.

DBW

[Beaver_Driver]

Yup did it have to be signed by their MEC? Almighty ALPA did it for them. And yet there is a move afoot among the Polar guys to vote to support ALPA??? WHY?

But the Polar MEC does have an attorney. Dan Katz who is an outside attorney paid for by Atlas Pilots ALPA dues, to support all the grievances which could result in many of the same Atlas pilot losing their jobs. Not really Polar's fault but certainly fodder for a "duty of fair representation" law suit against ALPA.

[dumbdumb]

So now it's a pee contest. No blinders here. Nothing wrong with asking a question and getting an answer -- and I got one. Don't shoot the messenger when I'm only putting on paper what I read. The statement was made that the MEC signed something, I asked, they said no. End of story.

So if Teamsters comes in what happens to all of the grievances? Are they just washed away? I'm sure it's been answered but sure would like to hear it again. This Holden decision is a big one.

[nitty-gritty]

I believe it has been stated that the arbitrations and awards of days gone by will not be affected by the http://atlasforteamsters.com movement. It is on their web site.

Now, if we could only get the Polar contingent to honor the awards made by ALPA National on the various things in the past that favored the Atlas contingent. Judging from past Polar conversations, that is not likely. Just like who had what route authorities/aircraft and when.

[Beaver_Driver]

Actually all current arbitration should have been nullified when a "single carrier" status was declared. Any arbitration award now has a chance of harming either group - or both. Kind of like filing a lawsuit against yourself.

[WhaleDriver]

BD,
The key is, the Polar MEC filed against Polar Air, so the collateral damage is not considered. If they had filed against the Atlas MEC, your statement might be correct.

Another consideration, is the need to make right past deeds by management. Just because the Atlas MEC put up with the furloughs out of order and other games, doesn't make the filings by the Polar MEC wrong. Misguided in some cases, but heck, it was already paid for, why not see what sticks.

[Beaver_Driver]

That is my point. Since we are a single carrier is it still filed against PAC? Also, and unfortunately, the resolutions crafted by Robin and Bobb (and one assumes the attorney) would, if implemented by the arbitrator, harm the Atlas pilots greatly. So we have to ask, now that there are no Atlas or Polar pilots; now that we are a single carrier with a merged, but not yet implemented list; would the furloughs that result from an arbitrators award be borne just by the Atlas pilots or the whole list? Alternatively, if we are one combined single carrier status then why are any of the grievances even germane. Seems to me to be a waste of scarce resources.

And if you want to continue to delve into the past to make the Atlas management pay for their deeds then you need to go all the way back to the purchase of Polar. Using the Atlas pilots profit sharing to upstream the money to AAWWH to buy Polar. Furloughing at Atlas while transferring assets to Polar and hiring at Polar - which is why you even had the number of aircraft and Pilots that you did. This has all been hashed out here ad naseum, and I know everyone who might still read this thread is aware of the total history. Just know that no Atlas pilot will ever forget the history and the injustice done to us - not by management but by another MEC and supported by ALPA. We will of course forgive, and I think we are all willing to move forward.

Perhaps you all should do the same.

[L-38]

Alternatively, if we are one combined single carrier status then why are any of the grievances even germane. Seems to me to be a waste of scarce resources
The many furloughed, street pounding Polaroid's, some many years more senior than those on the combined list that are working today, must be addressed.
Even if the "shoe was on the other foot", an out of seniority furlough issue must be resolved!

[Beaver_Driver]

you are talking about the engineers and are comparing Apples to oranges. You are comparing the Polar PFEs to the Atlas/Polar FOs.

The Atlas PFEs that are working are for the most part a pretty senior group. Most have been here since the inception of Atlas - compare the Polar PFEs on the street with the Atlas PFEs working if you are going to make a statement like that. If a guy is not qualified to hold a front seat should he still be kept on the payroll? We all know that classics are going away. The FE job is going with them.

And I do believe the remaining 8 (Bobb says9) Polar PFEs were given some options that would have kept them employed until the merger took effect when they would then take their place on the arbitrated list. Is that not true?

[L-38]

The remaining 8/9 have now joined Polar's other furloughed FE's, and are now filling for unemployment. How they will factor in with the no bump / no flush clause of AAWH's combined FE list is yet to be determined (all were hired in July/ August/ September 1994).

The irony here, is that although now a furloughed Polar FE, I had actually operated Atlas's first after inaugural flight, when working for Tower Air back in February of 1993.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

The remaining 8/9 have now joined Polar's other furloughed FE's, and are now filling for unemployment. How they will factor in with the no bump / no flush clause of AAWH's combined FE list is yet to be determined (all were hired in July/ August/ September 1994).

The irony here, is that although now a furloughed Polar FE, I had actually operated Atlas's first after inaugural flight, when working for Tower Air back in February of 1993.

And the Polar MEC was presented with the option to prevent those 8/9 from going to the street by allowing them to slide over to fill seats which needed to be filled at the time. The Atlas MEC was ready to agree to a temporary limited agreement in which those PFE's could have remained employed and on the property.

Regardless of the temporary conditions in that agreement until such time that a merged contract exists, the Polar MEC chose to put those PFE's on the street, why?

DBW

[dumbdumb]

Because that would have sold the other engineers down the river. So just as your supposedly MEC looks after the WHOLE group, so did ours.

Just like the B.S. about putting Polar F.O.'s on the Atlas side until the merged seniority list came into effect. It would have sold out some of the others.

Why those of you at Atlas have a problem with our MEC looking after the WHOLE group is incredible. It's not a sell your buddy down the street for short term gain. This arbitration is big and I'm on the position of believing that management lost. Otherwise, there would have been a simple letter stating the reasons why it was not ruled in the MEC's favor.

Well, I've given pprune a shot and now it's done. I got the information I needed for my vote and if you think I'm going to vote for leadership that will sell their workers for other gain you're mistaken. Seems to me some of you on the Atlas side better think about that as well.

So, thanks for the information and all the "finger pointing" but there's reasons Polar MEC has stood by themselves and taken heat. It's because they represent the WHOLE list and not just a "what can I get out this" mentality.

VOTE ALPA!!!!!!!!!!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Because that would have sold the other engineers down the river. So just as your supposedly MEC looks after the WHOLE group, so did ours.

Say what? The engineers it would have retained were the most senior engineers. How would this have sold any of the junior engineers down the river, if anything it would have opened the door to possibly bringing other (junior) engineers off the street and back into a seat?

Instead your MEC fealt it was better to furlough everybody and hinge all the engineers future employment at Atlas on a single arbitration case that may or may not be heard or even ruled on?

A bird in hand...

DBW

[layinlow]

You have to remember that the reason the FEs are on the street is because Atlas is flying Polar flights. That is what the arbitrator has determined. Where it goes nobody knows. But there will be a very large monetary settlement into several millions of dollars. You also have to remember that the previous arbitration assumption was the company was correct in their position that they were not taking Polar flights, but, it depended upon this arbitration. We now know that the company was wrong. That may cause a lot more money to the company not to mention probably a longer time to settlement.
Until then it is all speculation what will happen down the road. I think much of this thread is ca-ca until we hear the final settlement and verdict. My personal opinion: The FEs will probably not come back, or at least a large portion of them. There are though, a lot of FEs senior to me and I am in the upper half of the merged seniority list so it might not be as many as you might think. Then there is the question of the Captain downgrades, those will have to be resolved. So there is a lot a water yet to go under the bridge before anyone can move on, as you say.

[nitty-gritty]

In any case, judging from your scope clause this all hangs from and current arbitrated interpretation and ruling. Polar will not be growing. The company will pay the judgment if it falls in the Polar crews favor. To the point of even hiring back some FE's if so called for in the interim, which I doubt that will happen.

Then the company will allow attrition to shrink Polar. Reassigning A/C dry leases to Atlas when staffing falls below manning ability by not hiring replacements at Polar. Then Atlas will fly those A/C under the PACW - DHL agreement. Bye-bye upgrades at Polar.

Don't forget that Atlas spent over 14 million just to create a non-union pilot replacement group (AACS now AABO) in STN and bought an almost bankrupt scheduled carrier (Polar) for about 25 million to siphon Atlas A/C and routes away from Atlas crews to bust the Atlas Pilots Union. Yep, you forgot were a number of those routes Polar flies came from didn't you. Another inconvient truth forgotten.

Your arbitration award costs may well just be peanuts in comparison.

Quite the Pyrrhic victory for you guys.

I think you should drag this out as much as you can. Fewer Polar guys to be incorporated that way. Especially with the "No Bump and Flush" decided upon already by the arbiter. That is turning out to be one of the few things Atlas crews got out of all of this. Keep up the great work. We are counting on it over here.

[Best Angle]

Nitty...

What routes exactly was Atlas flying that Polar stole? Please give details. I honestly don't remember this happening.

[layinlow]

Nitty

Here's the thing. Assuming you are correct, and I am sure you probably are to a point; the Polar FE's may not return. However, as long as Atlas is flying the Polar flights, the FE's would be drawing a salary for sitting at home, and the Captain downgrades would be paid a Captain's salary while sitting in the right seat (according to the CBA). So it isn't a one shot deal. I am sure the slugs at AAWWH will not stand for that. Like I said, ponificate all you want but would not it be better to see what the arbitrator decides and the AAWWH counter offer to the union? Speculation for speculation's sake ony fans the fires of discontent.

[nitty-gritty]

Did I say "stole"? No, I didn't. I said "siphoned." I'm not so stupid to think that the pilot groups can whole heartedly control who gets what in the corporate shell games we are living out. I'm just tired of one group here thinking they are magnanimous in this when they are not. Selectively forgetting past events and choosing to act as the only ones harmed.

One would have to be incredibly naive to think that the ongoing Atlas labor negotiations at that time had nothing to do with the A/C and route transfers to Polar. Then again, that is easy to do when it is to your advantage. Maybe you should ask the same of the DHL flying that you are now performing that Northwest and ABX was doing. I'm sure that Polar will eventually claim that, as always, having been Polar's as all the other flying from the past such as ANZ and Qantas flying that I did back in 93 at Evergreen as you did with Atlas flying the same during your last strike.

Since you seem to admit the A/C transfers, I'll just mention the Atlas South American routes authorities that were flown by Polar as a starting point then later claimed as Polar's since the earth was formed despite the authority hardcopy I'm looking at now.

I guess this opens up of the floor again to the usual who has what despite my only desire to show that there is no one group innocent in this corporate shuffling to keep labor at bay.

[L-38]

That was one hell of a gripe, Nitty. To think that after all of these years you actually work for such a comingled company . . but you are working!

For years before the acquisition, I had operated Polar flights in and out of RMS on AMC charters along side with Atlas. But not today. Today Atlas fly's both - some on my be halve with Polar call signs.

[Best Angle]

OK, Nitty, "siphoned"

The only flight that I know of that Polar operated under Atlas authority was the South American stuff. When the Polar purchase happened, both Polar and Atlas had South American route authority. One had to be given up, so, of course, Cato gave up Polar's. When Atlas screwed up the sked, the customers wanted Polar back on it. We had to operate under Atlas authority because ours was cancelled.

So, I ask once again. Besides the South America case, what Atlas flying was "siphoned" to Polar?

[BillyBob521]

Best, don't confuse anybody with facts, Nitty and Dave have big plans, let both groups fall in line, besides it will take both groups dues just to feed fat bastard! If the Atlas guys want to see where there dues went no secret there!

[nitty-gritty]

Figured it would come back to this typical BS and the "yea but" with the same crowd.

So continuing onto another front for the less brainwashed.

ALPA National had a conference call with the Atlas guys on the decertification. They spent a lot of time tap dancing around crewmember questions and not answering almost all of them in any convincing manner. Looks like Atlas for Teamsters info on their site must have been right. I would like to thank those crewmembers that participated and allowed National in their own words prove exactly what they have been doing to us. Resulting in this push for Atlas For Teamsters (http://atlasforteamsters.com). I also found that they put most of the blame for the problems on Polar on that call. I'm certain if or when they have a conference call with the Polar membership that they will blame all the Atlas crews for all the problems in front of that audience.

Also of note:

The earlier Atlas VARS messages about protocols and National's promises that they will be done or forced have come to a lack of fruition. Not too unusual. National has rarely lived up to their promises to the Atlas council.

Some interesting reading for you.



November 5, 2008

Captain John Prater
Air Line Pilots Association
1625 Massachusetts Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036

Dear Captain Prater,

I am in receipt of your letter dated November 4, 2008 regarding the ongoing Atlas/Polar Single Contract Negotiations now taking place as earlier directed by the Association’s Executive Council, and more specifically the negotiations that were to have been completed in October regarding "protocols". Needless to say, the Atlas MEC is very disappointed that your office has again declined to direct the Polar Master Executive Council to engage in good faith negotiations regarding protocols, not withstanding the Executive Council's directive to do so as issued in September.

You will recall that following a meeting held on September 10, 2008 in Reston, VA the Association, the Polar MEC and the Atlas MEC agreed that during the October negotiations with the Company the Joint Negotiations Committee (JNC) would strive to complete the protocols as a prerequisite to continued negotiations toward the single collective bargaining agreement (SCBA). Additionally, as directed by the Executive Council, that protocol agreement would include provisions for binding interest arbitration. You further assured the Atlas MEC that if the Polar MEC did not comply you would take the necessary action to compel them to do so.

While the Atlas MEC's representatives to the JNC did meet with the Company in October to complete a protocol agreement, the Polar MEC Chairman directed that his representatives engage in no protocol discussions, in direct contravention of the Executive Council's and your directives.

Your letter of November 4th does nothing to remedy this situation. In fact, while it requests that the Atlas representatives continue protocol discussions with the Company, it does nothing to compel the Polar MEC's compliance. The Atlas representatives have no authority to bind the Polar representatives to any agreement that may be reached. And notwithstanding your very vague statement to the effect that you may or may not even sign such an agreement, even if you did, such an executed protocol agreement would have no binding affect on the Polar MEC.

The Atlas MEC and the Crewmembers we represent are committed to completing this merger. The infighting between these two crew forces has already been allowed to go on far too long. We have stood very patiently while the Polar MEC Chairman has done everything he could to prevent it, even while his own fleet and crew force were suffering the direct consequences of a shrinking airline, and even while he has attempted to move flying legitimately at Atlas to Polar to make up for his losses. It was our hope that after the Executive Council finally directed that the merged seniority list be presented to management last May (a full 18 months after Arbitrator Harris issued his decision), the last step of the process, negotiations for a single CBA could finally be completed. That, clearly, has turned out not to be the case.

Based on these circumstances and consistent with what I advised both you and the Executive Council on September 10, 2008, we do not believe that any further negotiations with the Company, either on protocols or the single CBA, are appropriate. This will remain our position until such time as either the Polar MEC agrees in writing to fully comply with the directives of the Executive Council to complete the merger, including agreement to interest arbitration should direct negotiations not result in a SCBA with the Company, or the Association directs them to do so.

Our patience has finally been exhausted.

Respectfully,


Royce W Setzer
AAI MEC Chairman


Cc:
AAI MEC
Bobb Henderson
Teresa Dodson
Bob Hester
ALPA Executive Council
Bruce York


I hope that the Polar guys let alone the Atlas guys that are getting tired of not getting anywhere remember that they can make a difference by voting Teamsters and Moving ON.

[CR2]

GT does not operate into RMS with PO call signs. If they are not GT then they're RCH.

[Beaver_Driver]

The Polar guys feel that if they have operated into ANY airport at ANY time and Atlas is now doing it, then it is THEIR flying regardless of the call sign.

[CR2]

Did have a PO -400 operating under GT call sign a couple of weeks ago. Bagram-Diego Garcia-Singapore.

Its what I alluded to earlier on... put the load on an aircraft that makes sense to put it on, never mind its paint job.

[Beaver_Driver]

Oh great. Now the Atlas guys will never be able to go into Bagram again without the Polar guys complaining that we are taking their flying away.

[Drzito]

If and when Teamsters is voted in, how does Teamsters feel about the aacs pilots? will they be integrated? can they even be part of Teamsters? how will they be integrated? I know some of them are interested as long as they can keep their seats, and pay which could undermine affiliation to a union. The way I see it Titan could be gearing up to be the next aacs! any comments?

[Beaver_Driver]

Titan is an airplane leasing company. Atlas has always had affiliations such as this. Atlas Leasing I, II, and III and some others. I doubt it will morph into a crew leasing company.

Atlas' position has always been that AACS/AABO are contract employees (they have their own separate contract) and any discussion about putting them on the merged list was improper. I have always been surprised that the militant Polar negotiating committee was not even interested in fighting the company on that one issue. Oh well - more water over the dam.

As far as AACS/AABO and the Teamsters goes, you would have to ask the teamsters folks. During the start of AACS, Bob Weatherly (VP ops Atlas) told us that EU law precluded the AACS crewmembers from being in an American Union. We were pretty sure at the time that this was BS but who knows.


www.atlasforteamsters.com

[dumbdumb]

Saying you doubt that Titan won't evolve into anything isn't good enough. It needs to be addressed in Scope -- regardless of what union we end up with. This is VERY serious stuff, gang.

[Intruder]

During the start of AACS, Bob Weatherly (VP ops Atlas) told us that EU law precluded the AACS crewmembers from being in an American Union. We were pretty sure at the time that this was BS but who knows.
Even if it wasn't BS at the time, it is now. AACS has devolved into AABO -- "Atlas Air Branch Office." As far as I can tell, they are no longer a UK company...

[Heilhaavir]

<<Oh great. Now the Atlas guys will never be able to go into Bagram again without the Polar guys complaining that we are taking their flying away.>>

LOL!

[742]

Saying you doubt that Titan won't evolve into anything isn't good enough. It needs to be addressed in Scope -- regardless of what union we end up with. This is VERY serious stuff, gang.


It is not unusual for airline holding companies to have leasing subsidiaries. A quick google finds USAirways leasing, AMR leasing and UAL leasing subsidiaries. There was a bit of an internal squabble at USAir “back in the day” when marketing found themselves working against Value Jet, to whom USAir Leasing had provided -9s. So sometimes these things bite management.

You and I may not like it, but it is the normal way of structuring airlines these days. And ALPA does not seem to object (which, to be fair to ALPA, would probably be a waste of time).

[dumbdumb]

Excellent points, and well taken. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be nipped in the bud. For a "professionial" negotiating comittee it needs to be addressed. No if ands or butts. To let it slide and trust the management side is hogwash . . .otherwise there would be no fuss about being union. See what I mean? It's a check and balance sort of thing and I'm telling you now, that this needs to be nipped in the bud. And a hardline drawn.

As you can see by your own statement management can get in the way of themselves. Well, why let that happen? Make sure that opportunity isn't there. End of story. I've been on too many unemployment lines by no fault of my own to let something like this take us out as well. I've seen it written in contracts and we better hit it here and now. It should be a "hardliner."

[742]

dumbdumb: Fair enough. To add to this, and a lot more, yesterday’s analyst conference call is well worth listening too. It should be on the public company site, it certainly is available via the usual financial web sites.

[Drzito]

Serious is besides the point, the fact is that aacs/aabo have ripped the benefits of Atlas, enjoying higher salaries, no pilot furloughs, jumpseats,etc.
While Atlas-Polar keep staffing levels between CA-FO proportionate to aircrafts, aabo-aacs is comprised of mostly captains with Zero airplanes to their name.

This is a serious issue that affects Polar, and Atlas pilot's careers significantly. It is up to the next leadership to be appointed to address this issue, and hopefully put and end to it.:ok:

[dumbdumb]

742: Excellent advise on listening to the conference call. I think it's interesting that the company is always shifting flying. Et Al: The two DHL planes are going to another customer. Hmmm . . seems to me that lift is being supported through ANC via Polar BSA and it was a "startup" to get the line of supply going. We all know that customers aren't lined up overnight.

Well, don't let this die as it was also addressed: Titan Leasing Scope, Scope, Scope!!

[layinlow]

As much as some dislike the Polar MEC, I have to take note that this was predicted by our council over a year ago and the single most concern for the future and the reason for most of the actions taken hence.

[Best Angle]

Layinlow... you are right on the money... Our MEC has predicted many of these things, including Cato's demise. One of our other utmost concerns, that for some puzzling unknown reason, the Atlas guys don't seem to understand or care about is the crew leasing issue. Atlas is a leasing company, not an airline. Setting up these aircraft leasing companies, crew leasing companies, and crew leasing agreements is showing us their direction. These issues are of the utmost importance to be addressed in any scope and protocalls, whether merged or alone. We could merge ourselves right out of a job if this is done incorrectly.

[nitty-gritty]

Atlas is a leasing company, not an airline. .It appears your MEC's clairvoyance has not done much to keep your guys employed but it has done a great job a alienating/insulting the Atlas, ABX, Astar along with a few other groups with your council's elitist attitude past and present of who is a "real airline." All done while demanding everyone elses help or jobs.

The Polar MEC and your groups interpretation seems to be lacking also. This is more of an obtuse excuse to lock things up and keep you rallying on his interpretation in lieu of the true facts. It is not a secret that Polar never wanted to merge. You are a "real airline" unlike Atlas, ABX, Astar and others per your description. We at Atlas prefer not to merge also, but understand that we will be used against each other again at the next independent section 6 negotiation if we remain separated.

Having said all of that. When we merge, we will need an airtight scope clause as we can get. There are a few good ones out there now with a few mods to steal from for our combined purposes.

[Beaver_Driver]

Didn't Polar originate from "Polaris Leasing" owned by GE and turned into a revenue (not necessarily profit) generating center by Jack Welch. Seems I read something about that in Welch's book.

OTOH I think your MEC was warned about the whole ANC thing almost three years ago now. The Polar guys are now in a position that the company can cause all the attrition they want just by adjusting the lines. It is pretty hard to JS home when you only have two days off between flights.

But there is enough "told you so" to go around without any of us, or FedEx QA, saying so. (Time to MOVE ON Bill! No one, including your own "friends" at Polar wants you to continue to prod.). It is also time to get together, under one union, with a profession negotiator, who does not have a dog in the fight; and get a contract with good scope. We will never get that with a negotiator from either side. We must have a professional negotiator. And that is something that ALPA will never allow because it opens the doors for the other carriers.

Too much water under the bridge and too much politics at ALPA with Atlas/Polar. United under one banner is the only solution thru this mess.

[Best Angle]

Nitty... I was talking about AAWH.....Like I said before; the fight is not with you. BTW Polar was operating the South PAC route structure long before AAWH thought of acquiring Polar. You still have not gave me any siphoning examples.

Beav... You are partially correct, Polaris leasing was set up to lease the aircraft to Polar. Polar was not originally owned by GE. Ned only owned 921 at the time.

[Beaver_Driver]

Mark,
nope - Polar was formed in 1993 as a joint venture between Southern Air Transport and GE Capital Aviation Services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Commercial_Aviation_Services) (GECAS) as well as NedMark. It started operations in June 1993 and began with charter flights, later adding scheduled services. Polaris leasing was the arm of GECAS that originally leased planes to PanAm and also, I believe, Flying Tigers


From Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/ge-capital-aviation-services) ... in September 1993, GE Capital announced plans to create a new subsidiary, GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS), to manage GPA's assets. It also bought 44 of GPA's 464 aircraft outright for US$1.4 billion (IR £920 million). GECAS had the option to buy a nearly two-thirds stake in GPA by March 1998. GPA agreed not to use the names GPA or Guinness Peat Aviation after 2001.
GECAS was staffed by 160 GPA employees (25 remained with GPA) and based at Shannon. The virtual merger was complex and difficult, its structure devised to prevent GE Capital from assuming GPA's liabilities. GPA essentially was divided into two companies, only the namesake being responsible for the $5 billion debt. GECAS was formally established in November 1993. GE Capital's own San Francisco-based Polaris Aircraft Leasing, based in California, was incorporated into it.Also from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/polar-air-cargo)Polar Air Cargo, L.P. was formed in January 1993 as a partnership between Polaris Holding Company, Southern Air Transport, Inc., and NedMark Transportation Services Inc. Southern Air, a major unscheduled (http://www.answers.com/topic/unscheduled) cargo airline based in Miami, operated the planes, which were owned by Polaris Holding of San Francisco, a subsidiary of General Electric Capital Services; the three Boeing 747 freighters had formerly carried passengers for Pan American.Jack Welch decided he needed to get some revenue out of the planes he had sitting around so he formed Polar Air Cargo as a partnership with Polaris (GECAS) SAT and NedMark..

Your Oz/NZ routes were code shares, which is way different than the ACMI being flown now by Atlas. So for you or your MEC to say that the Atlas pilots "stole" or even had anything to do with siphoning your flying is beyond ludicrous. The simple fact is that as a non-integrated carrier, the Polar scheduled routes to SYD and NZ were doomed to failure.

[nitty-gritty]

Nitty... I was talking about AAWH.....Like I said before; the fight is not with you. BTW Polar was operating the South PAC route structure long before AAWH thought of acquiring Polar. You still have not gave me any siphoning examples.I did give example followed by CR2 with another and you choose to ignore them. Big surprise there. I flew what you refer to as the South PAC for ANZ and Qantas when Polar was still a wet dream at another company, but we should ignore that I guess. Why waste more time and writing for something no Polar person will admit?

As to the Polar elitist attitude of who is a "real airline." It has repeated here, on the line, and on your web boards for some time. I only assumed you were perpetuating it again. Judging from history of the Polar group, I still think you might have at best made a Freudian slip.

http://www.atlasmergerfacts.com/img/cocksuckers/theadmiral.jpg

[nitty-gritty]

That's some goof at Polar (M.P.).

My ribbons came at the cost of others and my blood. His are probably a relatives or from the local Army-Navy store.

Looks like Army ribbons (two that I can remember from what my weak eyes can pick out of the picture).

[BrowntailWhale]

Hey Polar guys. Here's what one of your guys said on APC. What's your take on his comments?


"DHL BSA (block space agreement) is only set at the six aircraft at Polar. Well, we are fully staffed. The two airplanes on the Atlas side have recently been reallocated to another customer. As far as effective date, I don't know.

Here's the kicker. Careful what you wish for. Go to Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings (http://www.atlasair.com) and listen to the earnigs report. There's a VERY scary message hidden within. In fact, it has me dusting off my resume. The twenty year DHL deal is ammendable every five years. Having said that, if they decide to terminate the aggreement, (not sure on the particulars) they have to take the airplanes with them. Not sure of the timeline as I haven't looked into specifics. So here's the scenario: Anyone remember the DHL/UPS deal in the works? Yep. That's my theory. They take the airplanes -- NO CREWS -- because of the F'd up scope clause that no one seems to monitor and we're gone. TAAA DAAAA!!!! BAM! All of sudden DHL has six 400's to lease to whomever (UPS) and furloughs run amuck. Yeah, this is all theory but I don't trust anyone after all the B.S. I've been through with other airlines."

[anothercargopilot]

Browntailwhale,

I have a few comments about your post...lets assume DHL cancels their agreement in FIVE years as you state and Polar aircraft go with:

1) I would guess DHL would forfeit all the millions of dollars they have paid for Polar and the block space agreement in the first place. How much is that total? A few hundred million I think. (Although it wouldn't be the first time DHL has walked away from a major investment - ABX/ASTAR - US flight operations)

2) What about the 51% of Polar Air Cargo that AAWH owns. Would UPS have to buy that too? I would think at 51% AAWH has the ultimate decision to sell out the certificate and/or aircraft or permit these to be used by UPS with or without crew.

3) I would speculate a complete sale of Polar Air Cargo would result in the landing rights going away IF the buyer was UPS (or lets say FEDEX) since they already have an abundance of rights already (monopoly/duopoly). One could probably argue that UPS wouldn't want them anyway....maybe just the lift of the 6 -400's.

4) If UPS or anyone else really wants 747's, they can just buy them from Atlas Air Cargo or through Titan the dry leasing company. Remember, Atlas Air Cargo has NO SCOPE, no protection. Titan is a shell company. And when I say 747's I mean the -800's too. It's all on the table and I'm sure ANYTHING can be bought for a price. So why screw around with the Polar workforce and their scope? Walk to the next cubicle and get from Atlas.

At the end of the day without a very tight scope clause and other protections this merged pilot group (Polar and Atlas) is in danger. At the moment, the Atlas pilots are working under a weak first union contract (ALPA) that was amenable a long time ago. The Atlas pilots are long overdue for a better contract (not just an hourly pay raise) and much better working conditions.

Scope MUST be at the top of the list.

Like it our not, it will be a Teamsters led negotiated contract for a combined Polar/Atlas workforce. They better get it right.

[nitty-gritty]

Sad thing is that the company was open to new negotiated scope for the merged Atlas-Polar group during the initial part of this to get the PACW-DHL deal closed early on.

Unfortunately, the agenda on one side of this three way equation was to stop the merger irrespective of that and still is to this day.

Don't know if that will remain on the table in the current environment.

[WhaleDriver]

Excellent advise on listening to the conference call. I think it's interesting that the company is always shifting flying. Et Al: The two DHL planes are going to another customer. Hmmm . . seems to me that lift is being supported through ANC via Polar BSA and it was a "startup" to get the line of supply going. We all know that customers aren't lined up overnight.

Shifting of flying is part of staying in business. You have to change as market conditions change. I believe DHL thought there would be a need for more lift and with the world slowdown, it didn't happen.

The new customer has been waiting for Atlas to find two -400's for them. The two from DHL became available and they signed a letter of intent. My bet is an Asian carrier that operates out of Japan.

[dumbdumb]

Whaledriver:

I agree with your speculation on an Asian carrier. ANA is going through the audit process as we speak. So maybe that's the airline.

[Tiger Guy]

Nitty. For your information the Polar pilot goofing around is a Marine. I served with him. So no need for cheap shots

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. 3Q08 Pretax Income Totals $10.1 Million; Net Income $5.2 Million, $0.24 per Share - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Atlas-Air-Worldwide-Holdings-Inc/story.aspx?guid=%7BD757F661-FF62-4C43-9BC2-4773DB61B9E3%7D)

Here is the link to the article in question. Makes for interesting reading.

[nitty-gritty]

Nitty. For your information the Polar pilot goofing around is a Marine. I served with him. So no need for cheap shots

If you think about it, that makes it worse than if he was only a civi.

[free at last]

What an embarsment

[L-38]

Ya Goofy - like wearing rank epaulets on a leather jacket

[dumbdumb]

I personally know the Marine in the picture and I'll explain it for you as Nitty's immaturity -- and vote swaying -- is coming through.

The picture was taken after his upgrade a few years ago and his wife had put the uniform together and wanted a picture. I know it's hard for some of you to believe it's not OK to have fun at work but personal attacks on someone when you don't even know the person is showing your real ways of doing business. Again, if you think I want clowns like you representing me at Teamsters you're wrong. Go pound sand!

Try it sometime . . . it is OK to have fun and laugh and not be serious all of the time -- regardless of where you're having fun. Work or home. Not everything evolves around egotistical, overbearing, anal retentive ba$tards.

And for the Marines that read this board: Semper Fi! I hope you celebrated our Birthday.

[layinlow]

On a more serious note, I see that AAWWH pulled Cato out from under his rock to settle this arbitration. Just what we needed, more slime.

[PCLoadLetter]

Goofy Marine What an embarsment
Not nearly as 'embarsing' as your spelling.

Lighten up, Francis... As 'dumbdumb' pointed out, more than likely to deaf ears (eyes?), people ARE allowed to have 'fun' at work.

[WhaleDriver]

Actually, many more wear epaulets on the jackets, than don't. I was DHing on Polar and have to ask who was in charge.

[BELOWMINS]

Whale
The guy in the left seat at the very front of the airplane.

[WhaleDriver]

They were standing in the ICN terminal, no seats..........

[free at last]

A bit of Jet lag!:)

[captseth]

Hey! I wear my epaulets on my leather jacket! Or, at least I did - when I used to have a job...

[nitty-gritty]

Try it sometime . . . it is OK to have fun and laugh and not be serious all of the time -- regardless of where you're having fun. Work or home. Not everything evolves around egotistical, overbearing, anal retentive ba$tards.

Having fun is great. Preferably not at the expense of the dead and wounded of battles gone by.

You just need to remember a number of us that had to spill and get our blood spilled might not appreciate it. We always get to remember the past, even if we don't want to. Demeaning what little recognition given to those is a little insulting.

Much like most of your post.

Judging from some of your Polar cohorts, you seem to think alike:

PM

Never critize someone's service, you PUKE. I'll see you on the Flight Deck !

Such harsh threats really scare me (not) and are contradictory at the same time. AOL is such a great host to have such patronage (not). Little does he know what others have done for the country he lives in. Judging from his previous posts, he is not someone to be proud of in your camp. Some year, he may sober up and get into HIMMS.

[nitty-gritty]

Onto something more germane to the thread.

On a more serious note, I see that AAWWH pulled Cato out from under his rock to settle this arbitration. Just what we needed, more slime.

My guess is that the arbiter has requested them back to address some questions that might have been raised with the final briefs filed by both sides. I'm sure Cato was required to come back as part of his severance package if needed for outstanding arbitrations for the company.

Since all the parties were scheduled to meet on Thursday and it was continued unscheduled through Friday, makes me think more input was needed before a decision instead of an expected verbal briefing of the arbiter's findings to both parties.

[dumbdumb]

At Cato's time of recognition it was made that he would be held on as an advisor -- I think. I would have to pull up the company letter. But I do know that he was held for some sort of position.

As far as the comment on sacrafices made for the country: I did, too and will respect your views on why you may find the picture offensive. Yet another reason to live in this great country. We get to think for ourselves and have opposing views.

[Fr8Dog]

recognition or resignation? I heard it was TERMINATION!

[L-38]

The rumor of J Cato's termination may only have been rooted in wishful thinking. If so, his brief return does not check. As it was never clearly established on why he left, where did he go?. . Was he actually booted? . . Did he jump to a better opportunity? . . Did he acquire a sudden disease? At approximately 56yrs in age and well paid, he was far to young to retire, and probably had too much pleasure in becoming AAWH's pain in the ass to it's labor force.

[BillyBob521]

Hopefully dispite all the bad rumors if the Polar folks win this one; think the Nitty folks have hung their hopes on that not happening, but fact is a win at Polar is a win for Labor a loss is a loss. Good luck to all of you! Teamsters sucks!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

The NMB already ruled in favor of "Single Carrier Status" that should tell you how the NMB will rule in regards to the pending award. Polar will lose, Atlas will win and the Engineers will be sent on their way and wished the best.

The NMB will not rule against itself, that is declaring single carrier status and then coming back and singling out certain individuals of that single entity and giving them an elevated status. Thats just the hard simple truth of the matter.

The other point worth noting is that ALPA agreed with the NMB, thats is we are a single carrier and preventing any further rulings from coming down and splitting the combined group. The only difference is that the Seniority will be implemented as agreed upon conclusion of negotiations.

Since Polar refuses to negotiate, Teamsters will take over and move the process forward and eliminate the stumbling blocks which we now call "Polar" and "ALPA".

If you want a contract and want this whole saga brought to an end there is only one choice, TEAMSTERS!

We're movin on like it or not.

DBW

[L-38]

The NMB already ruled in favor of "Single Carrier Status" that should tell you how the NMB will rule . . . Polar will lose

Must be more to it, else why would it take 18 months and many meetings for such a logical conclusion?

[BELOWMINS]

DBW
The simple hard truth is that this is not an NMB proceeding. It is a greivance which has gone to the System Board of Adjustment consisting of a neutral arbitrator, a compny representative and a union representative. The NMB makes no ruling.

[WhaleDriver]

I have to agree. NMB is not a part of this and this is for past actions of Polar Air Cargo, not future. The "Single carrier" status is a present and future look, where Polar CM's are trying to be made whole on violations of their contract years ago.

All I've heard, rumor wise is, Polaroids wondering how much their going to get, and some others pointing out that the foundation of the Polar complaint is the fact that Polar and Atlas are not merging. This is where the NMB ruling may be coming in.

Some felt the Arbitrator was waiting for "Single Carrier" status to be ruled on to make his decision. Since the Polar MEC made clear that there was no merger in the hearings, Bloc is giving them a chance to adjust to reality.

[Beaver_Driver]

The simple hard truth is that this is not an NMB proceeding. It is a greivance which has gone to the System Board of Adjustment consisting of a neutral arbitrator, a compny representative and a union representative. The NMB makes no ruling.

I have to agree. NMB is not a part of this

Interesting then that the names of the arbitrators are on a list maintained by the NMB located Here (http://www.nmb.gov/directory/dirarb.html). Who does the arbitrator work for if not for the National Mediation Board?

I have to disagree with you both. The NMB is intimately involved in this dispute and the single carrier status, which should have nullified the continuation of this grievance, will have significant impact on the decision. In any case I have heard it is already done.

[WhaleDriver]

BD,
I've been wrong before, but I thought the NMB provided names of arbitrations simply as a facilitator to the process. I didn't think the NMB was involved beyond that.

[layinlow]

The question is not of what is happening now, but what happened looking back. If the ruling is against the company, which I hope, then the company will have to pay out a lot of money. It won't kill them but it might hurt a little. As for the future, the single carrier status if resolved may play a part of it. But like it was said, the decision probably has already been made and tehre is no use in speculating when the ruling will be out in a few days.

[L-38]

For info, at least two furloughed Polar FE's (each who have not worked in over two years) received their new Polar ID's yesterday via FedEx . . . . Either a mistake or something is up!

[Beaver_Driver]

ARBITRATION

NMB Responsibilities and Activities

Under the Railway Labor Act, employee grievances arising under the terms of collective bargaining agreements (i.e., minor disputes) are subject to compulsory arbitration. Effective arbitration processes are therefore necessary to resolve such disputes.
The NMB administers the processes available to the parties for resolving railroad grievances. They include:
Public Law Boards
Special Boards of Adjustment
National Railroad Adjustment BoardThe NMB certifies appointments of arbitrators to serve as neutrals on these labor/management boards in the railroad industry. To be admitted to NMB's roster of arbitrators, an applicant must be eligible under the "Uniform Guidelines for Placement on NMB's Roster of Arbitrators". The "Guidelines" and relevant Application Form are available in this web site. Each applicant is notified in writing as to whether or not admittance is approved.
The NMB is also frequently asked to furnish panels of arbitrators from which the airline parties select a neutral for airline System Boards of Adjustment. Click here for on-line access to the form for Requesting an Arbitration Panel.

[742]

For info, at least two furloughed Polar FE's (each who have not worked in over two years) received their new Polar ID's yesterday via FedEx . . . . Either a mistake or something is up!


I don’t take any satisfaction in telling you this; but I also got a new ID – and for no good reason. They recently moved this function to the IT department, and I suspect that there is a bit of confusion.

[TheMessenger]

If you look at the stock price, you will see that Polar and atlas are about to blink out of existence.

[nitty-gritty]

I looked at United (10.99) and American Airlines AMR (7.99) each. Around the Atlas price of (10.92).

What's your point?

[layinlow]

Messenger..Don't be too quick to count them out yet. The stock has been as low as a dollar. Generally the stock market is based on what will happen in the future and 10 bucks isn't that bad a deal.

[WhaleDriver]

The stock market is simple supply and demand. No one wants stocks right now, so very little buying, and only selling if you have to.

Look at ATSG, the new ABX (Airborne Express). Market cap, $12M, less than the cost of one of their 767's, and ATSG includes two other money making company's, ATI and Capital. Makes no sense.

[habibib]

Scope Scope Scope

I believe that Titan, while a real entity, is also intended to distract the pilot group in negotiations. I believe that scope is extremely important, and one of the few job securities left in this industry. This tactic of creating an alter-ego has been used at the regional carrier level for quite some time, especially prior to negotiations.

This has been used successfully at Mesa, Messaba, Chautauqua, and Trans States to name a few in recent memory, all before contract negotiations.

[Beaver_Driver]

From the WSJ (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Atlas-Air-Polar-Air-Cargo/story.aspx?guid=%7B44BA44D7-E051-42FB-A175-FCA25388111C%7D)


Dispatchers for Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo are seeking to be represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, the union announced today.

[L-38]

Arbitrator Bloch's decision and award has been released -

"The grievance is granted in part and denied in part . . ."

[Beaver_Driver]

Typical that you would not post the whole thing. The Company won the alliance flying argument so Polar has no quarrel with interline flying anymore. This also most likely means the death of the Polar DHL express flying grievance. Polar did win the argument over the furlough of the 35 crewmembers so Company will have to pay severance. The only light at the end of the tunnel begins with the election of IBT as our single bargaining unit. Together we CAN negotiate a decent scope section. Apart we will be forced into situations that will keep us fighting each other instead of standing strong - along with 1.4 million other teamsters - to get a great contract. God help us all in this economy.

[L-38]

Polar did win the argument over the furlough of the 35 crewmembers so Company will have to pay severance

Severance my ass . . Polar's FE's are "to be restored to the active seniority list and made whole for losses incurred" . . probably also means that the "no bump/no flush" clause will not soon be applicable for them.

AAWW management should now be more eager to implement a single CBA, so as to unburden themselves of the excess payroll. . . . something for everybody!


(Sorry Beav, seem to be unable to attach the award)

[Tiger Guy]

Had a call from a Polar F/E friend and what I understand they are back on the payroll with benefits as of July 1 2007. He sent me a copy of the Bloch award it is 21 or 22 pages long. They can thank their ALPA Scope, Capt. Robin Hair and their lawyers.
I can guarantee that you would not have got that service out of IBT.
Sit back guys collect your pay, wait for the merger.
I'm happy for you guys. :D:ok:

[nitty-gritty]

Here is the award in PDF.

IN PDF (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=44191)

[layinlow]

Habibib you are correct, Scope, Scope Scope. The arbitration just awarded is a perfect example. Thanks to the people who negotiated the Polar scope clause, the Polar MEC for not backing down to the company over the scope clause and ALPA who stuck with us, I am sure there will be 35 more votes for ALPA. But you must remember, with this group of yoyo's at Purchase, you may win a battle but you can lose the war. Don't get too cocky until the far lady sings.

[WhaleDriver]

Habibib you are correct, Scope, Scope Scope. The arbitration just awarded is a perfect example. Thanks to the people who negotiated the Polar scope clause, the Polar MEC for not backing down to the company over the scope clause and ALPA who stuck with us, I am sure there will be 35 more votes for ALPA. But you must remember, with this group of yoyo's at Purchase, you may win a battle but you can lose the war. Don't get too cocky until the far lady sings.

Layin,
You need to actually read the findings, not listen to Bobb and Robin. The company won the scope part of this arbitration. I quote "Management did not violate Section 1.E.8 of the Labor agreement." If you take a moment and look, section 1 is your scope clause.

The winners were the FE's because of a combined seniority list. Nothing to do with SCOPE. The company violated section 22.A.1, which if you look, is Seniority. They violated section 22 by furloughing your Engineers out of seniority order, period.

In fact, this is exactly the opposite of your statement. It is a major loss for your scope provisions. Because of wording, about alliance flying, or whatever you wish to call it, Bloc was not convinced that some of the flying Atlas is doing, belongs to Polar. Bottom line, Bobb and gang failed to convince....period! The company dodged a major bullet.

[Beaver_Driver]

Actually 1E8 is not scope either. It is the "subcontracting" section of chapter one which, granted, is generally lumped in with scope. Remember too, section G, which is also lumped in with scope. It gives management the right to operate its business "including, without limitation, the right to: direct all employees; determine the appropriate number of employees; hire, promote and discharge; establish and enforce rules of conduct; maintain discipline and efficiency; introduce new equipment; determine the location(s) of the work force, operations and facilities; plan, direct and control operations; expand, limit or curtail operations when deemed advisable to do so; sell all or part of the business; sell or lease aircraft or facilities;…."

One has to wonder what will happen to the 37 FEs now that there are no airplanes for them to crew; and if the rest of the Polar crowd will be so happy with this award and the possible unintended consequences. Time will tell I guess.

[v1andgo]

Just think about it. The company subcontracts all Polar Flying to Atlas in order to furlough the entire seniority list.

[L-38]

One has to wonder what will happen to the 37 FEs now that there are no airplanes for them to crew

Maybe they will become cruise pilots on the -400.

[Beaver_Driver]

Hard to do that when you are based in NZIR with no gateway and no -400s to fly.

[Tiger Guy]

When we read Beaver and V1andgo posts, this what is refered to as
"The Brotherhood of Pilots" Atlas style . :mad:

[L-38]

Polar FE's becoming cruise pilots is not an original idea . . . During Polar's initial fabrication of it's CBA when it was first discussed back in 98' and 99', the Polar FE's were considered as possible -400 cruise pilots with the coming of Polar's -400's, then projected to be far off into the future.

With hazy recall, this was an additional reason as to why Polar's CBA designers had created Polar's "one" seniority list - that list was designed to save jobs . . . . and it did!

McMurdo would be a great place for a cold beer!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

AWARD

The grievance is granted in part and denied in part. Management

did not violate Section 1.E.8 of the Labro Agreement. Management
violated Section 22.A.1 and related sections of the Labor agreement by

furloughing Flight Engineers while retaining junior pilots. The F.E.'s

furloughed on July 1, 2007 are to be restored to the active seniority list
and made whole for losses incurred. The question of the appropriate
remedy for the individual F.E.'s is remanded to the parties for resolution.






My best guess...


The remedy since no seats exist for the FE's who are not making a move to a Pilot seat is a settlement that will end their employment with Atlas and Polar resulting in elimination of their positions on the seniority list.

The irony is that since the merger has not been consummated, they (the PO FE's) have no claim on the merged list since they will be terminated prior to a first copmbined contract.

DBW

[L-38]

What tree have you been sleeping under DBW? The company has attempted just that over the past few years (to eliminate Polar's FEs), but with disastrous results (for the company that is).

Polar's FEs were already listed on the merged seniority list (merged FE list), but they were listed as furloughed thus unable to bump and flush - however today the award says that they were furloughed in error.

As recent history has proven, these FE's will most likely be paid $$ to sit at home while awaiting the merger. At that time, AAWW may legitimately furlough - but within the constraint of the merged FE list, inclusive of the Atlas FE's.

. . . Or for a considerale $$ savings, Polar can make these senior airmen cruise pilots, thus being free today to furlough 30 of it's most junior FO's. This option may be most favored by the Altas group, as it would most likely ensure that no Atlas FE be otherwise displaced by a Polaroid.

[v1andgo]

Listen the PAC MEC flushed the brotherhood concept done the toilet year ago.