Epic Aviation Flight School Florida - good choice?

[Tomcio0991]

Hi Everyone

I would like to go to the USA to continue my flight trainig to ATPL Licence. I really like the offer of Epic Aviation Flight School located on Florida. The main thing is HAVE ANYONE TRAINED IN THAT SCHOOL and if had how he\she finds it now? Please give any information.

[Fitnesspilot737]

Im starting there on Oct 27th to do my CPL from zero. Seems friendly and a nice area!! Good fleet of cessnas and from what I hear they are relatively new also. Accomodation etc looks good also. I have had very little feedback on this site of people that have actually studied there though as my threads have received no replies

[civil aviation]

No replies is a worrying clue, despite your positive impressions.
However might simply be because it's FAA with American clients when this is mainly JAA/Euro site.
BTW Why did you reject the obvious JAA Florida choices such as NAC and Ormond Beach Aviation?

[ChrisLKKB]

They certainly have a nice website and if it's to be believed they have some good facilities. It looks very much geared to US students and this quote on their website would have me asking questions...
JAA Conversion:
Epic Aviation has an agreement with a flight academy in Europe to conduct your JAA Conversion. This will include your Frozen ATPL Written Exam, and CPL Check ride. Study Materials will be issued while at Epic.
What 'flight academy' and where in Europe ? How much will this cost? Will the conversion be at a fixed cost? What makes them different from any other flight school who are doing FAA CPL courses? What exactly is this 'agreement' ? Who writes the JAA exam study material? Do the CAA haver any further requirements before they will issue you with an fATPLto work in the UK?

It sounds little more than a part 141 FAA ME CPL course and they've just made a phone call or two and found out where you can do your conversion in Europe. I'm sure they'd be pushing their links and name the flight academy concerned if they had any solid links with a particularly reputable flight school, they don't even publish a website for them.

You should receive a reasonable quality of trainning being a part 141 school but you can do an FAA ME CPL then book yourself a groundschool course and arrange a conversion yourself at a school in the UK quite easily so make sure you aren't paying significantly more than any other FAA CPL course, either part 141 (FAA approved) and part 61 (FAA non approved) before signing up bearing in mind you'd be getting more flight hours at a part 61 school.

Other large approved US flight schools are Flight Safety, American Flyers and ATP flight school with locations across the US, (some locations having larger facilities than others).

[Fitnesspilot737]

The conversion is done with Bristol Ground School at an extra cost of $8000. Do you think this is a bad decision??

[ChrisLKKB]

Bristol are a very good ground school although iirc they only charge £2100 for the groundschool so i'd try and find out exactly what you get for your $8000 (£4500).

If you end up with an FAA CPL then this will also have to be converted, someone has covered the exact requirements recently here but you will have to do a certain number of flying hours and the GFT and IR flight test. If this is covered by the £4500 then make sure you are getting a Multi Engine IR.

[Fitnesspilot737]

This was sent to me via email:

First, Epic Aviation is a top rated International Cessna Pilot Center, with over 40 brand new training aircraft. Of these you will find Garmin G-1000 glass cockpit, onboard traffic avoidance, weather radar, and autopilot. We have 43 flight instructors on staff, and our training facility has its own airport. Free from delays or taxes. Florida has year round beautiful weather that is unmatched world wide. We have over 325 beautiful weather days in Florida. Epic Aviation is located just 30 miles north of Kennedy Space Center where NASA choose to launch the space shuttle. They too need absolutely clear weather to launch.

Additionally, flight training in the US can save you an immense about of money. Currently flight schools in Europe are charging in excess of 100,000 Euros (This is approximately $160,000 USD). Where our fixed price course in the US is $57,990 USD. With this program you will complete your FAA PPL, Instrument, CPL Single and CPL Multi. The prospectus is attached. All aspects of the training are included in the cost. There are no additional taxes, landing fees, fuel surcharges. Transportation and Accommodation are included for your duration also.
The next step will be to convert your license back to JAA, and this can be done one of two ways. The first option is by using a distant learning program (CBT - Computer Based Training), you will study 14 modules for Frozen ATPL. Then you are required to take 14 exams and a check ride. So you study while you are here in the US and return to Europe and take the 14 exams and check ride in a few weeks at any flight school. The cost for this is $8000.
The other option is to train in the US and then simply return and attend a school in Europe for ground studies and take the exams there and your check ride. The price varies by school but is usually about the same price. But will take a few months.
The best part of this is the cost. If you take $57,990 + $8000 = $65,990 USD This is almost $100,000 USD savings from flying in Europe. And the best part you will graduate with both FAA and JAA, which will further open up your opportunities world wide.

[ChrisLKKB]

I think a phone call to Bristol might be advisable to find out what they know about Epic and if they know what exactly is involved in conversion but i'm pretty sure you are going to have to do a CPL GFT on a single engine complex aircraft followed by an instrument rating skills test usually done a multi engine aircraft. (I believe an additional 15hrs training is required before taking the IR, some of which can be done in the sim, you will need to put a few hours in before the GFT also).

With the additional trainning, the cost of the written exams and flight tests, as well as the cost of the ground school, an additional £4500 sounds a little cheap.

I would find out the exact trainning requirements for conversion and get Bristol to independantly quote you for the flight trainning, flight tests, ground school and exam costs. If there is a large discrepancy then i'd be sceptical about the $8000 dollar figure. It's no bad thing to end up with an FAA CPL ME IR as well as a JAA frozen ATPL though, just nail the costs before making a descision and accept that you may have to spend over and above the minimum requirements, I doubt Bristol offer the same fixed cost promise. (you might also want to get an estimate from Bristol on the amount of study required for the 14 exams, it's not inconsiderable).

You should be aware that as nice and as shiney as those glass cockpit GPS equipped aircraft are, I doubt Bristols aircraft have glass panels and they aren't going be any help over here as you don't do GPS approaches for the CAA skills test.

[eikido]

I know for sure that only converting JAA IR costs around $8000. Then you need a couple of CPL ME hours before the CPL checkride. And ofcours the ATPL theory course.

Is part 61 ICAO compliant? Because i'm thinking of doing part 61 and then convert to JAA. ChrisLKKB what do you mean that Part 61 is non FAA approved? Is Part 141 better than 61? I want to do Part 61 because you get more hours.

Eikido

[ChrisLKKB]

Is part 61 ICAO compliant? Because i'm thinking of doing part 61 and then convert to JAA. ChrisLKKB what do you mean that Part 61 is non FAA approved? Is Part 141 better than 61? I want to do Part 61 because you get more hours.(FAR refers for the federal aviation regulations, part XX refers to the section in the FAR/AIM book)

It's been a while since I did any training in the US but as I recall, schools which opperate under FAR part 141 have an FAA approved, standardised syllabus for flight training and ground school. After every lesson the instructor will fill in paperwork which is kept in your trainning records.(In theory, one FAR part 141 school will conduct training in much the same way as the next).

Schools certified under part 61 offer a much more flexible trainning program which can be structured to the students requirements or as the intructor deems necessary. Exams are done on a self study basis and it's advisable for students to keep a diary of their training although a busy instructor will probably keep his/her own also notes.

There's nothing to stop a part 61 school opperating like a part 141 school (ie a standardised program, record keeping and ground school) but a part 141 school can't opperate like a part 61 school.

The FAA minimum required hours to take your flight test when training at a part 141 school is 35 hours where as it's 40 hours for a part 61 school although that's pretty much irrelevant as the average requirement to meet the standard required for the ppl check ride is (or was) around 65 hours (i'm not sure about the hours required for an IR, ME or CPL).

There is no difference in the quality of training between the 2 types of school, that is down to the school opperator and the quality of instructors. There are some excellent instructors at part 61 schools and some bad ones at part 141 and vice verca.

I don't know how FAR part 61 fits in with ICAO part 61, if they are the same thing then an ICAO part 61 compliant school would just mean that it is a certified school opperating under FAR part 61. The licence you get at the end of it is exactly the same and will need to be converted to a JAA licence to use it in Europe as per the requirements of the governing body of the country in question.

[Fitnesspilot737]

Well... I think im happy enough gaining my FAA CPL here but is it worth $58,000 (all inclusive)? I dont mind paying the extra to do the conversion to JAA as I have a good contact here in Ireland who can set me up with an airline interview after I complete. Saying all this,...im still only a wannabe at this point and have no past experience

[Alex Whittingham]

We will supply a 'standard' distance learning course so the students complete the distance learning phase in the US and return to us for crammer courses and exams. The only difference is that, normally, a student would come straight to us and, in this case, they buy our course as part of the Epic package. Its just like MultiFlight's 0 to ATPL course. I don't know where Epic send their students for JAA CPL/IR training and flight tests.

[ChrisLKKB]

Well... I think im happy enough gaining my FAA CPL here but is it worth $58,000 (all inclusive)? I dont mind paying the extra to do the conversion to JAA as I have a good contact here in Ireland who can set me up with an airline interview after I complete. Saying all this,...im still only a wannabe at this point and have no past experience

Well you know the groundschool will be good but i'm assuming form Alex's response that the trainning and flight tests don't take place at Bristol, i'd want to confirm where it is going to take place and whether the package covers all aspects of conversion. Don't forget you will have to study for your FAA PPL + ME +IR + CPL written and oral examinations while over in the US as well as the JAA syllabus, that's a lot of work, it's hard enough to study for them seperately.

[blueskybird]

Today is the first time I have heard of this school and it would be great to hear from any current/previous students who've done the ab-initio course with Epic.

It all looks quite good, obviously the fact that you have to learn the FAA & JAA syllabus could be very demanding???

But nevertheless, I am seriously considering them. Will have approx £45,000 by next year, so I am hoping this will be enough to include the course and all the conversions when back in the UK for the IR etc.

Any info and advice on EPIC would be GREAT :ok::ok::ok:

[Fitnesspilot737]

I think ill put a few more questions together for them regarding this then ill post any further info I may gain on this thread

[Fitnesspilot737]

Here is a break down of how it works. You are attending Epic for FAA CPL which costs $57,990. While attending Epic, you will be studying at the same time the computer based training ground school for your JAA through Bristol. This cost on top of the $57,990 will be around $3,700 (2,100 pounds). The $3700 (2,100 pounds) estimate is just for the Bristol CBT JAA ground training course. Once you are done with our FAA CPL training and the Bristol JAA CBT training in the 6 to 8 months, you will be attending the remainder of the Bristol course in the UK. Then you will sit in on the 14 test. This is included in the estimate of (2,100 pounds) $3700 dollars. When you are done with all test in the UK, you will have to fly in England to do the check rides and the remainder of time. There is very little flight time needed to fly in the UK to do the conversion so that is where the other $4,000 estimate comes from. It could be cheaper it all depends which schools you attend in the UK to finish it off and your proficiency. We will give you a list of Schools in the UK to finish this off that portion.

[ChrisLKKB]

Well Bristol quote £2100 for their ground school which as I understand it from their website includes their notes, CBT disc and brush up courses, one course for each module. It doesn't include the cost of the exams which is directly payable to the CAA and I believe at the moment they are £80 for each of the 14 exams.

As for the cost of preparing for the GFT (CPL checkride) you will need to do a 170a which is basically a mock test with the flight school to prove you aren't going to be wasting the CAA examiners time and i'd imagine you'll need to do a couple of flights at the least to prepare for the 170a as the GFT is quite different to the FAA checkride (as is flying in UK airspace compared to US airspace).

For the IR i'm almost certain you are required to do 15 hours trainning (some can be done in the sim) and a 170a, i'm not sure if the 170 is included in the 15hrs.

I reckon it will cost you at least....
CPL; 3 hrs (min) to prep for the 170a @ £260 per hr = £780
CPL 170a; 1.5hrs @ £260 per hr £390
Test 1.5hrs @ £260 per hr £390 (excluding test fee)
IR; say 7 hrs sim @ £151 per hr £1057
IR; 8 hrs multi @ £341 per hr £2728
IR 170a 1.5hrs @ £341 per hr £511
IR skills test 1.5hrs @ £341 per hr £511 (excluding test fee)

Total; ~ £6400 plus test fees, landing fees and approach fees. Thats got to be around $11500.

I could be wrong about the 15hrs required for the IR but you will need some prep and you will need to do a 170a

[itsbrokenagain]

Speaking from experience in this type of conversion from Florida students, BE REALISTIC PEOPLE ABOUT THE FLYING.

ChrisLKKB started the math and has done a great job! But think about it.... you are a newbie pilot who learnt to fly in the USA, and in Florida, you will be going back to the UK and flying in weather, real weather, with real icing.

The only thing that will or might hit you is in going back to the UK for this training, you are going to suddenly be faced with a real flight instructor, and a very professional one, dont be scared, they are there to help you, so use them and their knowledge. (normally people at this stage go holy crap, what have I done...., and what dont I know or havent been taught by my 200hr flight instructor in florida!)

But lets get back to reality with this flying thing... the closest thing you have seen to icing in your flight training to date is the cold air coming out of a aircon unit. You havent flown at this stage in real solid vertigo inducing cloud (dont worry we all get it).(trust me florida and UK weather are way way far apart....) in practical terms you are going to be way behind the power curve when returning to the UK for this training, so get your wallet prepared .

Here have a look at the weather for Titusville airport, you will get the jist of my weather are of the post (on the left there is a link to link at years of history) Titusville, Florida (32780) Conditions & Forecast : Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/US/FL/Titusville.html)

My suggestion is if you are going to the USA for training, stick to a JAA approved school, sure they are a little more, but at least you can get the UK CPL done here, the FAA CPL is going to just cause headaches, and heartache and lots of worry for you during your training in the conversion phase.

Happy flying

[nh2301]

no offense, but that's some really bad advice. I know nothing about Epic, but in general the JAA approved schools in florida are overpriced, and generally have worse standards of training than the average FAA school. You only have to look at this forum for the myriad negative experiences of people attending these schools. An FAA school may be hit or miss, but it will certainly be cheaper!

[eikido]

no offense, but that's some really bad advice. I know nothing about Epic, but in general the JAA approved schools in florida are overpriced, and generally have worse standards of training than the average FAA school. You only have to look at this forum for the myriad negative experiences of people attending these schools. An FAA school may be hit or miss, but it will certainly be cheaper!


Totally agree.
I've found JAA schools in Florida overpriced with low standard.
I'm thinking about doing FAA and then convert on my own.
The only problem (?) is i don't want to read CPL (ATPL) theory twice. Because you have to do FAA CPL theory first and then read JAA ATPL theory.

Eikido

[ChrisLKKB]

I think what this demonstrates is what I have already said, that there are good part 141 and 61 schools and bad ones and you can add JAA schools to that list. The lack of JAA schools over there limits your choice so the odds are you will be able to find a better FAA school due to choice available but what it really boils down to is individual instructor.

Most of the guys I flew with over there had come through an academy zero to hero type school which gave them 750hrs+ by taking them through ppl to cfii then building hours by teaching new ppls starting the cycle again.

At 750+ hrs these guys were excellent instructors, at 250hrs they may not have been quite so good, this is where being a local would help as you could pop in and find out how the school opperates, speak to the students and find out what their sucsess rate is like etc, otherwise you are going to have to take a chance. In my experience though the higher hour instructors tend to be teaching at the smaller schools after leaving the academy type school continuing to build hours while they look for their first break with the regionals.

Choosing a JAA school should at least ensure a reasonable level of instruction by the time you reach cpl, and you will be taught to pass the CAA GFT which is quite different to the FAA CPL. In some cases you will be taught by JAA FIs over from the UK and of course you wont have to convert or study for 2 sets of exams.

Weather in FL may not be great all the time but it is certainly better than the UK, I found late winter through to early summer to produce many great flying days.

If you are going to choose the FAA/conversion route I would budget for a lot more than you have been quoted, indeed even more than I have suggested to honest.