Warning About Beijing PanAm

[Rodney Gentry]

This post is a warning to all past, current, and potential future pilots for Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy (BPIAA). If you want to work as a pilot in China or utilize your Chinese issued licenses after being employed at BPIAA, my situation will be of interest to you.

I came to China in February 2006 to be employed as a flight instructor with BPIAA. I obtained my Chinese commercial pilot license through BPIAA, which was needed to legally flight instruct in China. This is a process that all the foreign flight instructors went through. I completed one fourteen-month standard contract, and left the company on good terms.

After leaving BPIAA, I taught English in a middle school so that my family and I could remain in China. During that time I decided to return to flight instructing, and obtained my current position with another Chinese flight training academy. Currently I am in the process of obtaining my Chinese flight instructor license (which is a relatively new requirement in China), and my company needs my Chinese commercial pilot license transferred from BPIAA. The problem is that BPIAA won’t release my Chinese license.

I have been informed that BPIAA delayed the issue for two weeks, and then demanded money for the license transfer. In addition, BPIAA caused another two week delay by waiting that long to fax the amount they want to be paid. They claim the money is compensation for the costs they incurred to train and license me. The amount BPIAA wants is RMB115,800 (over $16,000 US).

My understanding is that Beijing PanAm does not own my Chinese pilot license, it belongs to the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Therefore, it is illegal for Beijing PanAm to hold my license.

Here are some additional facts:

1. The contract I signed never had any clause or stipulation stating that BPIAA could hold my Chinese license. Nor was there anything in the contract about compensating BPIAA for flight training or Chinese licensing.
2. I fulfilled my contract and honored my agreement with BPIAA. I even received a contract completion bonus and was later invited to return to work for BPIAA.
3. There have been at least four former BPIAA foreign flight instructors that have come to my company to instruct, and not one of them had to pay to have their Chinese licenses transferred. I am the first one to have this problem.

This is shameful behavior when a company hinders the careers of their former employees who honor their agreements. If they are doing it to me, there is a good chance they will be doing it to others. Beware, or you may find yourself in the same situation.

[Laden]

I am sure this serve as a 'wake up call' for all Pan Am instructors that are still there. Have you consider taking legal action against him? I am pretty sure you have a case. Don't let him sh:mad:it all over your family and you. He is getting that money to pay himself salary for one month for doing nothing. :ok:

[Rodney Gentry]

I am contacting various authorities and influential people that might be able to help. If nothing else, more light will be shed on what is going on at PanAm. I am keeping my options open though.

[Jbroey3]

Rodney, don't let Mr. Ding and Mr. Zhu or Lilly, or others over there pull your chain man.

What happened to you -=has=- happened to other instructors from Pan Am that went over to Kunpeng.

The only difference is that back then, they (Kunpeng) had no instructor team (it was only about 3 guys) and therefore, they (Kunpeng) would allow people to work there without proper CAAC "release" from Pan Am -=and / or=- deals were made behind the scenes to allow for license transfer / under the table payment / employment.

Now being that they have former Pan Am ((Chinese Instructors)) and the few foreign instructors (J.O, B, L, L, R, etc) they most likely won't lift a finger to help you. Either way, Pan Am in general most likely doesn't even have your information at this point, it's most likely just resting in the CAAC's hands.

Which of course means that they will then need to refer to some former contract of sorts that shows that you have been released from Pan Am, (three letters "Dismissal Letter, No accident / violation report, Earnings Statement, and your contract that should specifically -=not=- have any clause that states you may -=not=- work for another flight school after completion of the contract etc.

Even if you have all of that AND a contract that verifies that you may work at another Flight School in China, Kunpeng will most likely not be able to sway the northern CAAC administration.

What you should do is try to release ALL of your former licenses (forfeit them) then re-do all testing (4 writtens, (commercial, instrument, FOI, english / ICAO test) Then re-take your commercials (single + multi) license training, instrument add-on, both multi and single instructor in shanghai, or in guangzhou.

Of course this is an option, but I highly doubt that the Mr. Ding and his two "Lee's" at Kunpeng in Wuzhou will afford that option to you. If they did, you can be rest assured that you will need to "pay" for it in some sort.

Again, good luck and don't let people continuously pull your chain and lie to you. There -=are=- many options in the world in and out of China that are far better for you and your family.

-Joe

[Mario Brothers]

Rodney,

Why are you wanting to go work for those idiots anyway? I remember quite well that is was Ding that wanted you and F.B. ousted from Bautou as an excuse for Class II not graduating!!! You're better than lowering yourself to work at that place, especially considering what Ding did to you. He could be the new "two-face" in the next Batman movie!!!

Sue PanAm for your certificate. There ARE legal ways to do things in China, regardless what SOME say on this thread. Call their bluff and see what happens. Contact the CAAC....they hate bad publicity.

C'mon Joe; forfeit his certificates? That is total BS. That certificate belongs to the CAAC; NOT PanAm. If he pushes the issue, he can get that certificate. My contract never stated I had to FORFEIT my certificates!! He completed his contract and then some!!

Get real, Joe!!

Good luck, Rod.

MB

[Jbroey3]

The only reason a forfeiture of certificates was / is even mentioned as an option is because of the fact that Pan Am personnel either do not have the certification / documentation to give or even if they did, they won't give it.

Rodney's information is now a figment of "Teddy Wang's" imagination, ie, lost, non-existent, etc etc.

Additionally, and as sad as it is, the CAAC could care less about the outcome of Rodney and his family's fate. They (the CAAC) will act only on what a contractual agreement says, and even then, choose to act with in-action if it involves paper work or loss of face.

But sure, I do hope that Rodney tries to use a lawyer to fight for what is rightfully his. Meanwhile, Mr. Ding, and those in charge over at Kunpeng are going to sit idle and waste time, time that Rodney is running out of, and they know it.

I also suppose that Kunpeng is extremely eager to help out a fellow foreign instructor considering that they are in a state of not needing foreign instructors. The 30+/- that are sitting / flying now in Wuzhou plus the tens of other Chinese instructors from Pan Am are going to be happy at their new home in Wuzhou and future bases; why put all the effort for Rodney?

The forfeiture of certificates "could" be the only option after the in-action of the CAAC to either get involved or make a decision to help / rectify Rod's situation. If you notice, I'm not saying that is what I agree with, but simply what an OPTION could be (regardless of how "BS" it is.)

By doing all the testing over again, he would be in essence starting over and doing so with Kunpeng as the sponsor of all the certification (which would essentially dig Rodney an even deeper hole with Kunpeng and lead to other troubles in the future if he ever wanted to leave for the next job, etc) yet, it would allow him the option of possibly staying with them if successful.

Again, the northern CAAC seem to be the "ruling" bureau. So he could be just SOL because there may be no chance actually given to re-take all the certifcations / tests via Kunpeng Sponsorship, but that all comes down to Kunpeng and the lengths to which they feel willing to help Rodney.

I've seen the past two Chief pilots get screwed over by Kunpeng personally, directly, and have been there myself to see the idiocy of it all. For Rodney to fight all this, it is ultimately going to be a burden on Kunpeng, which at this point in time is most likely just looking to get rid of him (as unfortunate / sickening as it sounds)

By the way, Speaking of getting "real", who are you? You seem to know who I am but who is the mysterious Mario Brothers?
You seem to think that I know absolutely nothing about the ways in which these people work which is perplexing considering that I've had affiliation directly with them in Shenzhen, Wuzhou, Baotou, Wuhai, Handan, Shijiazhuang, and Beijing (Kunpeng and Pan Am). So please enlighten the readers of this thread to who you are so we can all understand where you speak from. I'd love to see words from you that "get real" as you have so stated repeatedly in this thread and in others.

-Joe

[Rodney Gentry]

Thanks for the support and advice Joe and MB, I've been receiving helpful information from many people through various channels. Some avenues of assistance are looking promising at this point, so we'll see what happens. I'm still busy contacting people that might be able to help.

I know it looks crazy to some that I would go to work for my current company, but I have my reasons. We all have to make our personal choices, and live with the outcome. I came in with my eyes open, but there are always some surprises.

I'll do my best to keep people informed of the final outcome.

[Mario Brothers]

First of all, Joe, it is of little or no importance who I am. I speak my mind and my opinions like everyone else on here. I know you quite well, a pretty good chap from all accounts, and that's all I have to say about it. You spoke your mind, which is more than I can say for the rest of us, and that's an honorable thing. I'll tip my hat to you on that.

But, you're not the Oracle Of All Knowledge when it comes to the Chinese way, Joe. Many of us know quite well how the business end of PanAm and Kunpeng works. I've been to Kunpeng myself, saw the "BS", and decided PanAm was the lesser of two evils, especially since Ding was involved.

We can sit and argue about this licensing issue all day long, but that fact is that certificate belongs to Rodney.

MB

[CorsairDB1]

I'm sure I don't completely understand the situation but when I discussed a similar matter with a CAAC guy during that 141 recertification back in December it was my understanding that all PanAm has to do is send the CAAC a note saying that Rodney doesn't work there anymore and PamAm no longer needs his licence (which, of course, they have no right to anyhow). I don't think PamAm needs to have any documents either way.

Getting someone to write that little memo though is another thing entirely...

Rodney, have you gotten a straight answer from the CAAC as to exactly what they need?

How did this get resolved when Terry and Tom changed companies? I seem to recall them facing an almost identical situation.

Hope those email addresses helped,
Derek

[EX-FED]

Hi Rodney,

Hope you and your family are doing well.

I did some checking after your email, but instead of writing you personally, I will post on here so all can somewhat understand this dilema you're in. Derek's view is very similar to what I found out.

1. It is a fact that the CAAC issues the certificates, and they are the only one's with the ability to revoke or suspend. This does not fall into the jurisdiction of Beijing Panam.

2. However, I was informed that in order for a foreign pilot to hold a CAAC certificate, that pilot must be sponsored by an operator under CAAC jurisdiction. This is exactly what Derek is saying in his post. Now this is what I was told. It does not mean that it's true or accurate information, but it's something you should verify yourself with the CAAC directly.

3. Now, this is strange, because several pilots have left Beijing Panam with their CAAC certificates intact, and they are not working for an operator under CAAC jurisdiction. The possibilities are endless as to why, but I would gamble to say that Beijing Panam just didn't report it to the CAAC, and they think the pilots are still employed there.

If I were you, I would hire an attorney and go at it through a court of law based on your completion of your contract. Beijing Panam will have to explain why you are being discriminated against while others have left the company with their certificates, some of which never finished the contract.

Regardless what anyone says, China does have it's legal avenues to fight this type of activity.

Good luck.

Howard

[Rodney Gentry]

Derek, from what I understand you are correct. What is needed from PanAm is very simple. They contact the CAAC and "release" me/my license/whatever you want to call it. I've been told a phone call will suffice. One day I might find the proverbial "horse" and get it from his mouth.

You are also correct in that convincing PanAm to do this is the trick. Everybody has to choose how much time/effort/money they want to put into a fight like this.

As to Tom & Terry, I never kept up on their story and how it ended. I left PanAm in the midst of it. Maybe somebody reading this can shed some light on the subject.

[Rodney Gentry]

Hi Howard,

Thanks for the research and sharing it with us, I appreciate it. Your post got in while I was typing up my response to Derek, so if things look out of order you know why.

I get to learn about this issue of CAAC licenses more and more. I had no idea until I came to my current company. I have run into instructors leaving for another flight job and if they wanted to use their CAAC license, they needed to obtain a "release". It seems some people don't learn about this until they want to use their CAAC license at another company.

[CorsairDB1]

Did you get a letter at the end of your contract stating that you had honorably completed your obligation? I got one when I left (after having to make a stink about it but then lets face it, I did that a lot...). They are legally obligated to give you this and one would think showing that to the CAAC would suffice. Of course, if you had it and it was sufficient I guess we wouldn't be discussing this.
I'd suspect that they have a lot of instructors on the books with them at the CAAC that are no longer there, particularly after hemoraging instuctors over this last year. I'd suspect this is a combination of extortion oppertunity and not wanting to raise any more eyebrows with CAAC over why so many leave. They are required to keep a certain amount of instructors in order to keep their 141 certification (though I believe the minimum is 15 in PanAm's case).

I spoke to someone in Baotou who told me they see this as compensation to PanAm for all of that high dollar training you recieved there. Assuming you had 10 hours of flying with Standards that comes out to around $1,600 an hour. I know gas prices are high but that's a tad unreasonable. Especially since most of us had flown an airplane once or twice before we got there.

I think Howard's right. If you go to the CAAC and stir up the nest I think you can make this happen. Might take a trip to Beijing to do it though...

[Newark Newbie]

An average of 5 months at 2000$: 10000$
An average of 5 months hotel: 2500$
Written test, flight test fees: 2000$
8 hours DA40: 1500$
Transportation, bribe... unknown
Plus the invaluable fact that they sponsor you. Without sponsor, no licence.

Thats how much it would cost you on your own. That' s how much they spent on you. Thats not included the DA42. But you havent flown it if I remember well.



Inaspinorspiraldive,

They spent this on everyone. What is your point? Others left, including myself, with the CAAC certificate. Read a little more closely. Rodney completed his contract.

Blue Skies:ok:

[Laden]

Are you the that 'toy boy' of Pan Am HR? Who did you hear all these from? You even have the figure broken down? :ok: Well done! So much for banging HR. Are you going to be doing your 42 soon? :D

[Rodney Gentry]

I want to begin by addressing the issue of BPIAA wanting compensation for the costs they incurred to train and license me. I was not advised of being indebted or bonded to them in any way, nor did I agree to any such thing by any means. My contract had no mention of this whatsoever, nor did my contract have the “anti-competition” clause in it that was added to other people’s contracts later on. This whole issue of needing a CAAC release from your former company is something I was not aware of until coming to my new job. It is unethical, illegal, and shameful that they would do this to me or any other instructor in my position. The fact that I honored my agreement with BPIAA by completing my contract is the compensation. If anything else was required, then it needed to be negotiated and agreed to by both parties in the contract.

I have the fax BPIAA sent to my company. It’s short and states the total amount they want without any itemization as to how they came up with this number. It also has the official stamp of BPIAA. If it has the stamp, then it represents the company.

Since it has been mentioned a few times in this thread, I do have all the needed documentation to prove that I can work for my current company. I have my letter of dismissal, accident/incident report, and contract. They all substantiate every claim I have made in this thread.

On a side note, my difficulties with BPIAA began during my paperwork gathering to obtain my current flight instructor position. It wasn’t easy to obtain my “no accident/incident” report from BPIAA. They gave me the runaround until they stopped replying to my e-mails. Later on, I tried to e-mail a certain individual at BPIAA about my old written test reports only to have no response (I needed to see if I could use them for my upcoming CAAC flight instructor checkrides). So when I sent an e-mail to the current leader of BPIAA recently, I wasn’t surprised when he didn’t respond to it either. I have a good idea of how they feel about me working for my current employer based on their actions and the feedback I receive from others.

[Always Moving]

Rodney! There is no horse,
You guys have been in China long enough to now that! and to know that the Chinese will extort any money they can (specially if the can pocket it, falsification is easy) and they will give you the run around...

Ok now on the helpful side. I told everyone long time ago that before you leave you should get letter of dismissal, your Brown medical and your blue license, besides the told you so...

Did you talk with the Shanghai FSDO could be another angle?
Did you ask Beijing (central or what ever they call it, not the norther FSDO in Beijing) for your records?

[Jbird08]

Hello Everyone. Rodney guided me to the site from Willflyfor food, thanks.

Ok here is my story - I have been working with Wasinc to get a position with Kunpeng - however it appears Kunpeng is advertising positions on Climbto350 directly, as well it appears also thru Huaxon-HK (pardon the spelling). Anyway, I sent the requested documents thru Wasinc to Kunpeng and Lily. I was told everything was on hold do to the olympics, but then got an e-mail from my Wasinc contact saying I am approved thru the CAAC. Then I get an e-mail stating the necessary documents and paperwork still needed and what my salary will be. Then an e-mail saying things are on hold and to wait; this is followed by a call yesterday saying things are on hold and there is a question about hour requirements for the position. I told my Wasinc contact to figure it out and get back with me, and that my resaerch here and at Willfly was now a concern.

Any Advice?

Next, what does anyone know about Jiutian-Spartan Academy and Kathy there? I have been dealing with them direct and they sent a contract. I can't get straight answers out of kathy about flight hours and salary. Every e-mail she says if contract is accepted, she will provide more info. Again any advice?

My primary concerns are:
How many hours does an instructor fly each month?
What are the salaries? - I was told $2500 to $3500 monthly
How is living in China? - They claim they provide housing or pay for it
Are the students capable? - Flying ability and english
How are the aircraft and conditions?
Is it worth it?

Thanks for any insight and advice

[Rodney Gentry]

Hi Jbird, you might want to think about making your post a separate thread. That way more people will see it, and you will get more responses. Glad you found your way here.

[Rodney Gentry]

For those interested in my situation, I have some good news to report. My commercial CAAC license has now been transferred from Beijing PanAm to my current company, and no money was paid. I have the lady who coordinates the CAAC licenses at my company to thank for this. She was persistent and managed to get in contact with the right person at the CAAC. The officer reviewed my case, decided I shouldn’t have to pay, and transferred my license.

For all of you that provided support, thank you very much. It is greatly appreciated. For those that want more details, contact me privately.

[Albatross01]

Firstly, that's the best news I've heard all year.
Great stuff Rod.
Secondly, is the CAAC going to adopt the view that this was attempted extortion by the CEO of Panam. If so the CAAC could have grounds to remove Brian Butt from the "Senior Persons" list on Panam's 141 certificate as he would be deemed not a "fit and proper person" as required for his post. Even in China there must be a way for the truth to be brought to bare on this man.
I'll drop you a line privately for the details.:ok:

[sweet flyer]

So, has Butt Head gone yet?

[Hudson_Hawk]

definitely gone. verified info.