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Richard Taylor
7th Sep 2008, 10:28
Have Jetblasters discussed this yet?

This week is the week that boffins in Switzerland try to recreate what happened in the immediate aftermath of the "Big Bang" (although if they looked at Katie Price, they might get an idea...:} )

Seems the experiment involves trying to create tiny black holes....the same ones that have a tendancy in space to hoover up everything in sight.

But don't worry - the extra-strong VAULT will save us. :eek:

So are we doomed...are the boffins crazy, or are they right to try & extend the boundaries of knowledge?

Personally I couldn't care less HOW the world was created...but WHY do we need to know? :confused:

corsair
7th Sep 2008, 10:32
As individuals we are doomed anyway in our own unique way. So why not go out with a 'big bang'. (Sorry couldn't resist it).:suspect::hmm:

I wouldn't worry too much. In all probability only Switzerland will disappear. It won't be missed much. Their watches are overrated and I never liked their chocolate.

Dan D'air
7th Sep 2008, 10:36
But to where are we to remove all of out loot from it's Swiss hiding place??

Beatriz Fontana
7th Sep 2008, 11:05
Quick! Move the loot to Panama...

Apparently, CERN will be webcasting (http://webcast.cern.ch/) from 0830 BST and the LHC beams will be hourly... So girls, if the boys start saying 'quick one before the end of the world', the end of the world could be on the hour, every hour, from 0800 to about 1500 BST :}

On the other hand, was the end of the world line spouted by US scientists because they were miffed that the Europeans got there before them?

Lasiorhinus
7th Sep 2008, 11:07
Notice how every "expert" who has suggested the world might end, actually has nothing to do with the actual project...

ORAC
7th Sep 2008, 11:18
The search function is your friend: Black Holes & Litigations. (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/320581-black-holes-litigations.html)

BlueWolf
7th Sep 2008, 11:42
After AIDS, and SARS, and Y2K, and Bird Flu, and Nuclear War, and Peak Oil, and the Gobal Warming nonsense, and the manufactured credit crisis, and fluoride, and aspartame, and mercury fillings, and salmonella, and algal bloom, and Terrorists, and werewolves and witches and vapmires and the Devil, and lead in paint, and lead in petrol, and holes in the ozone, and genetically modified corn, and everything else which has supposedly been going to kill us all and none of them ever have, I'm suprised we've even got this far.

...so put me in the "no, we'll be just fine" camp.

And if I'm wrong, I'll see you in the ether, for a few double neutrinos at the Molecule Bar, and we can larf about it all.

Richard Taylor
7th Sep 2008, 11:46
AAH Cheers Orac. I did search under "BIG BANG" but nothing came up :}...must have disppeared in a black hole when I looked! ;)

Dan D'air
7th Sep 2008, 11:47
I'll see you in the ether, for a few neutrinos at the Molecule Bar

Are you positive that you will be there??

BlueWolf
7th Sep 2008, 11:50
Are you positive that you will be there??

Even if it means missing Mass. ;)

BlueDiamond
7th Sep 2008, 11:53
If Wolfie says he'll be there, then you may be sure he will discharge his duty in that regard, Dan. Not to make light of the matter (one is strictly neutral), I expect this topic to generate a lot of interest before we all go ohm.

Avitor
7th Sep 2008, 11:53
So what's with a credit crunch?

frostbite
7th Sep 2008, 13:08
Haven't Health & Safety got anything to say about it?

PilotsOfTheCaribbean
7th Sep 2008, 13:22
Seems the experiment involves trying to create tiny black holes....the same ones that have a tendancy in space to hoover up everything in sight.



And this differs from a teenager how ?


So what's with a credit crunch?


On both counts the time to really worry is when the DFS sale actually does come to an end !

Gainesy
7th Sep 2008, 13:31
Dunno why they're bothering, its all been done before, thousands of times. You see those things we call stars?:uhoh:

To be on the canny side, I'll not pay my lectric bill till after they switch the thing on.

stagger
7th Sep 2008, 15:08
The one thing that I find slightly worrying is that many of CERN's reassurances about the safety of the LHC...

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html

...are based around the idea that...

Whatever the LHC will do, Nature has already done many times over during the lifetime of the Earth and other astronomical bodies.

Given that the universe is full of nasty stuff like black holes, this is not particularly reassuring.

It's a bit like a biological scientist saying "don't worry about me messing around creating new viruses - nature does this sort of thing all the time". Nature also kills lots of people and makes species go extinct.

Nature does nuclear fusion (in the sun). That doesn't mean it's safe to do it in my kitchen.

Beatriz Fontana
7th Sep 2008, 15:16
Great piece in the Sunday Times today from their editorial.

"The end is not nigh, just yet... What would the implications of the end of the world be? The good news is: it will finally stop raining.. the bad news? Brace yourself, because as we all disappear down the celestial plughole, the last thing we will hear is Gordon Brown assuring us that this is a universe-wide problem and nothing to worry about."

There, two threads in one!

Loose rivets
7th Sep 2008, 17:08
One will be waiting with baited breath. I have to know...even if it's the spark of knowledge that dies with me as I'm distorted to the proportions of spaghetti.

It's a bit long in the tooth now, but for those interested, Leon Lederman's 'The God Particle' is a super read, taking us to the time when the Super Collider in NW Texas was canceled.

On the other hand, was the end of the world line spouted by US scientists because they were miffed that the Europeans got there before them?

I think you'll find quite a few Americans at CERN However, the ones that represent the magnet manufacturers might be hiding.:\

There is little point in doing a 1,000 years of science, only to stop at the door of God. C'mon, let's have the courage to ring the bell.

CATIII-NDB
7th Sep 2008, 17:12
Heilsenberg's uncertaincy principle applies here. and there are lots of conjugate variables involved - My totally uneducated instinct at the moment its switched on is to face East, outside , with a glass of Chateau Netto and hope that the initial high energy Neutron flux from the " unexpected" runaway thermonuclear chain fusion reaction evicerates me pronto. Only kidding I'm off to re open the Nuclear Shelter at the bottom of the road. Anyone for a Tin Hat.

CAT III

ThreadBaron
7th Sep 2008, 17:21
even if it's the spark of knowledge that dies with me as I'm distorted to the proportions of spaghetti.
"From spaghetti you came and to spaghetti you shall return." Or am I misquoting?

Anyone for a Tin Hat.
Only if I can keep my foil one on as well.

xetroV
7th Sep 2008, 17:22
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/55419/freemanae8.jpg

Other than that we'll be fine. :)

Old Grey
7th Sep 2008, 17:39
Yes, we are doomed. :ooh:

Every man Jack (and girl Jill) of us is certain to die.

How much more doomed would you like to be?

Loose rivets
7th Sep 2008, 18:05
Mmmm...The saying that None of us get out of here alive, is okay except for Jesus. He did.

Here's a good'un.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7543089.stm

mr fish
7th Sep 2008, 18:10
if thats MARK E SMITH on the far left of pic, yes, we are doomed.
payback for not buying THE FALLs last album i guess!!!:}

frostbite
7th Sep 2008, 18:16
It's OK - he's using a torque wrench.

SpringHeeledJack
7th Sep 2008, 18:58
From the photo, that old fella front left looks like Johnny Ball, father of Zoe Ball, the old fella lurking at the back looks like Gay Byrne, Irish ex-presenter of the longest running talk show in the world, and that chap with the glasses looks pretty much like David whatshisname from the x-files......obviously the story about him going into therapy for sex-adicksion was just a cover...:}

From molecules and their smaller constituents I know little, but it would seem that such projects are like catnip to scientists and in the pursuit of glory (amongst their peers in the academic world) and there have been various misjudgements and fatal errors over the years with projects that were lacking in redundancy, although one cannot recall any at this time due to temporary amnesia-totalis :)

Assuming that there has been an extensive risk-assessment analysis for ALL outcomes and things have been thought through with wisdom :rolleyes: then we can sit back and enjoy the show. However, as there would seem to be an unknown element of risk due to the thus far known action of black matter, then perhaps it would be better to postpone the bang and think things through, putting the needs of the many before the ego-driven needs of the academics. Personally, one would be disappointed if the world were to implode next wednesday as one wishes to live long and prosper.


Regards


SHJ

Beatriz Fontana
7th Sep 2008, 19:27
I would hate to be the Health and Safety officer on the project...

Richard Taylor
7th Sep 2008, 19:32
Besides I am on holiday the next fortnight...bit of a bugger if the world ends midweek...

tony draper
7th Sep 2008, 19:42
Typical of government work though,one man on the tools whilst six paper shufflers wi clipboards look on.
:rolleyes:

AMF
7th Sep 2008, 20:01
I hope they're all wearing those little hardhats because they did their Euro Greenie-Weenie duty and rode their bikes to work, and not because they think they need them working with a Supercolliding Atomic Particle Accelerator used to create Black Holes in the Universe.

con-pilot
7th Sep 2008, 21:08
Will someone please let me know when it is time to have my last Scotch? You know, maybe a ten, fifteen minute warning.

tony draper
7th Sep 2008, 21:33
Any black hole would immediately fall through the Earth and be absorbed by the black hole that exists at the center of the Earth,there is no Nickel Iron core there you know, just a rotating black hole.
:)

CATIII-NDB
7th Sep 2008, 22:21
Is there any chance of locating the whole of the present cabenet and a few Tory entities at the point in the collider where the countra rotating streams of particles meet ? that will almost certainly create a "Hole" even bigger than the Economic one that we are currently in - and It will almost certainly be black. Come on Werner uncertainty rules OK. PS the chap in the right of the photo looks just like my old boss. Be afraid , very afraid.

Lets all sing from the same Hymn sheet starting with "Abide with me."

CAT III

PS: Four types of Matter - Matter, Anti matter , Dark Matter and finally the above Don't Matter - Don't matter forms in large clumps in the presence of large amounts of cash/Benefits. No chance of Quantium field purtubation theory needed - just the smell of newly minted/printed cash.

S'land
7th Sep 2008, 22:32
Besides I am on holiday the next fortnight...bit of a bugger if the world ends midweek...

Would that be so bad? After all, you would not have to go back to work.

Dan D'air
7th Sep 2008, 23:03
Why is Ali G on top of the big blue thing?

CATIII-NDB
8th Sep 2008, 10:16
"Shit, Its biggest can of beans that I have ever had to open !"

CATIII.

Richard Taylor
8th Sep 2008, 10:48
"Ali G In Da Vault"

Beatriz Fontana
8th Sep 2008, 12:30
Johnny Ball is saying to a journo off camera. "I know it's a real faff but the boss was so twitched that the black hole would escape that he insisted on doing up all the nuts himself. All 4 million of them."

Flash2001
8th Sep 2008, 19:38
Perhaps we are doomed.

The label says "last bolt tightening" when it seems to be a nut.

Torque wrenches (or spanners for the UK) should be used with the arm at right angles to the tool.

I hate to think that this rather large and complicated device was built by people that couldn't tell the difference between a bolt and a nut and didn't know how to use a torque wrench.

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

dead_pan
8th Sep 2008, 20:42
I hate to think that this rather large and complicated device was built by people that couldn't tell the difference between a bolt and a nut and didn't know how to use a torque wrench.

Why has someone stuck a sign to the 'device' with what looks like masking tape with arrows indicating where the tape should be applied? Do they not know how to apply tape to a sign? Also, why has someone then stuck a sign over the top of this one with a big f**k-off arrow pointing to the nut/bolt the lead boffin is tightening/loosening? I think we should be told.

Its also evident that the boffs have prepared themselves in the event of an anomaly - they've obviously calculated they'll be transported back to the 1950s given their attire...

tony draper
8th Sep 2008, 21:22
One suspects the people who actually built it are long gone, when it's all finished and all the problems are solved, the bits that didn't fit made to fit all the balls ups from head office put right, that's when the feckin suits appear.
:suspect:

dead_pan
8th Sep 2008, 22:13
Odds on LHC creating a black hole ~ 50 million to 1 according to a CERN scientist. Odds on winning the Eurolottery jackpot = 76 million to 1.

Saw an ad for the latter last week, curiously no parallel state-sponsored adverts suggesting I get my affairs in order (cancelling the milk, returning library books etc) in the more likely event of the end of the world.

Flash2001
8th Sep 2008, 22:25
Thats scary 'cause someone is going to win the jackpot!

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

frostbite
8th Sep 2008, 22:41
I normally do my weekly shopping on Tuesdays.......

Maybe I will leave it until Wednesday - don't want to waste money.

gibbs
9th Sep 2008, 12:24
More to the point here, for years the swiss have maintained their neutrality, avoiding wars fooling us with cuckoo clocks, numbered bank accounts, nice chocolate and that fountain thing in Geneva. But in fact all along, they have been plotting to end the world, slowly, surely. By the way have the UN sent a team in cos' this could the the Mother of all WMD.:eek:

brockenspectre
9th Sep 2008, 12:50
Although the sound of Frazer from Dad's Army uttering " weee're aaaaaaaall doooooooomed" is sort of in my head, the rational bit of me has been browsing the CERN website and there will be all-day coverage on the Beeb etc tomorrow.

The full schedule is available here (pdf format)

http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-first-beam/documents/CERN_LHC_first_beam_day.pdf

and the main website for the event is:

CERN | LHC First Beam (http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-first-beam/Welcome.html)

:ok:

13thDuke
9th Sep 2008, 12:58
Apparently if microscopic black holes are produced and they emit any radiation before they disintegrate, then that's a nailed on Nobel prize for Stephen Hawking.

I have absolutely no idea what any of that means.

lewismansell
9th Sep 2008, 13:06
Apparently if microscopic black holes are produced and they emit any radiation before they disintegrate, then that's a nailed on Nobel prize for Stephen Hawking.

He has $100 on it not working...

BBC - Today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7598000/7598686.stm)

CATIII-NDB
9th Sep 2008, 13:14
Its only being run to enable a proton beams to travel the full circumference of the collider on the 10/09/08 - not to full power - avoid the hype its nonsence. view via the web cast and not the non scintific media - And YES its exciting - Watch and enjoy

cat III

sitigeltfel
9th Sep 2008, 13:22
A letter in todays Telegraph surmises that the reason we have been unable to detect any advanced civilisations in outer space is that they have all beaten us to it with this experiment :eek:

Windy Militant
9th Sep 2008, 13:29
DON'T PANIC!
Nothing is going to happen tomorrow. As with most projects like this some big wig will push a button and a few lights will flash. Now in about six months time when they've finished sorting out the c*ckups and removed all the Heineken bottles from the vacuum pipes........;)

angels
9th Sep 2008, 13:31
This thread displays everything that is wonderful about JB!

An absolute belter!

CATIII-NDB
9th Sep 2008, 14:05
.........and what ever you do - no-one even think of saying Angels 15 -- I'm going to Panic any way -

CAT III

sitigeltfel
9th Sep 2008, 14:12
Would it be any great loss to the planet if Geneva disappeared off the face of the earth?

It might make it a bit inconvenient to get to some of the ski resorts, but that may be about it :p

Beatriz Fontana
9th Sep 2008, 14:29
We'll be fine as long as our dear leader Gordon Brown doesn't wish CERN luck (http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/jonah-put-his-curse-in-writing.html)....

Mr Grimsdale
9th Sep 2008, 15:21
Quote:
Whatever the LHC will do, Nature has already done many times over during the lifetime of the Earth and other astronomical bodies.
Nature does nuclear fusion (in the sun). That doesn't mean it's safe to do it in my kitchen.

Quote:
On the other hand, was the end of the world line spouted by US scientists because they were miffed that the Europeans got there before them?


When the ITER Fusion reactor in France gets switched on in about 2035 these arguments could get a whole new lease of life!
http://www.iter.org/ (http://www.iter.org/)

G-CPTN
9th Sep 2008, 15:37
Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://wikimapia.org/#lat=62.5288728&lon=113.9931107&z=15&l=0&m=a&v=1)

Tyres O'Flaherty
9th Sep 2008, 17:02
heard Mr Hawking on the radio in that comedy voice last night. He reckoned there was about a 1% chance that the LHC would have sufficient energy to produce a black hole

dazdaz
9th Sep 2008, 17:53
YouTube - Dr. Strangelove Final Scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU&feature=related)

Daz

Firestorm
9th Sep 2008, 18:59
I shall be wearing tweed for protection, just in case. I've never heard of tweed being destroyed by anything, let alone a theoretical particle.

dead_pan
9th Sep 2008, 20:27
Further idea for a caption to the photo posted previously:

Man leaning on LHC to chap with tool: "Shae cannae take it Jim!!!"
Man with tool: "Don't be ridiculous Scotty - this torque wrench is rated to 300 lb ft!"

Or "My God Jim, the Higgs Bosons are multiplying like Tribbles!"

Suggestions for what is written on the side of the LHC: "Caution: Event Horizon - No Smoking" or "Save Energy - Please Turn Off The Lights"

antic81
9th Sep 2008, 22:47
I have a question if I may.

Why is the chap who's telling me I have got nothing to worry about wearing a hard hat???:E

G-CPTN
9th Sep 2008, 22:54
Bring it on!

BlueWolf
9th Sep 2008, 23:02
view via the web cast and not the non scintific media

I shall be watching from a safe distance, through my collider-scope :}

ShyTorque
9th Sep 2008, 23:42
Typical engineers, they've made a huge cock-up already by taking so long to get it built.

They'll never get a Proton in there in the first place.

They've got bigger over the last twenty years and now the tube's too small, especially for those people carriers.

Anyway, why bother? They already crash tested them.

Cron
10th Sep 2008, 00:20
Strikes me as a ready coincidence that Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee worked at CERN and put together that planet destroying medium called the WWW in his spare time and now they are following up with the Hardware equivalent.

Shy - it's not that kind of Proton - honest.

Regards

Cron

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 07:30
Weather not too bad here for the End of The World as we know it. And I feel fine...

one post only!
10th Sep 2008, 07:59
I really hope the world doesn't end today....I am on holiday next week. Rather die on a warm beach with a drink in my hand than sat on the jet trying to achieve a 25 min turn-around with no ambilift and no dispatcher.

Hang on talking about turn-arounds, I am flying to GVA later! Anyone know the delay code for "pax delayed due to being sucked into spontaneous black hole???" Wow now that could really make for a bad day out!!!

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 08:04
"The emergency exits are HERE, HERE & HERE..."

(Wonder if they have THOSE in the vault...:})

T -30mins...:uhoh:;)

helimutt
10th Sep 2008, 08:12
is that 08.30 utc or BST? Just want to get some cleaning and washing done before the end of the world. Wife won't be happy coming in from work if she finds the world gone ..AND.. i've not done the washing!
Gulp.

:ok:

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 08:30
*BANG*

Umm....err....feel the same....

one post only!
10th Sep 2008, 08:34
Well 0730 (UTC) has passed and I don't think I have been sucked into a black hole. Never having been through one before not sure but I am fairly certain I am still alive at home.

Oh well, another pointless rumour. Bit like the EZY big announcement that was doing the rounds. Back to work then i guess.

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 08:36
IT'S GETTING DARK!!!!! :eek:

Oh hang on, that just clouds...:rolleyes:

Beatriz Fontana
10th Sep 2008, 08:39
Well, still here.... beam's gone round. Ooh, the sun's come out...!

ORAC
10th Sep 2008, 08:41
The only bit switched on today was the little accelerator on the surface which gets things up to about 99.98% light speed. Once that's checked out OK they go onto the intermediate one which gets them up to about 99.9998%, then it's time to go onto the last one which gets them up about 99.99999%. But that will involve a lot of fine tuning of the beams using the magnets etc. That'll take a couple of months.

So you still have time to take a holiday.......

MagnusP
10th Sep 2008, 08:59
I still cringe at the thought of the typographical error in New Scientist
20-odd years ago, when it referred to the Large Hardon Collier. Ouch.

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 09:01
Well what an anti-climax! (as it were...:hmm:)

The world hasn't ended...we aren't about to disap

rhythm method
10th Sep 2008, 09:02
Bugger! I maxed out my credit cards thinking I wouldn't have to pay them! :}

(But I think one of those black holes may soon appear in my bank account!)

1DC
10th Sep 2008, 09:16
Why do they build these things underground, instead of on the surface?
Apparantly we have one in the UK that only cost 2 mill and that is located deep in a salt mine.
If it is safe why bother to go down below??

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 09:35
So we gotta wait another 2mths before they fire a beam of particles in the opposite direction...THEN stand back...:rolleyes:

Well done ORAC!:ok:

dead_pan
10th Sep 2008, 09:36
Its all well and good making fun of the situation but we literally will all be laughing on the other side of our faces if it all goes wrong...

Squeegee Longtail
10th Sep 2008, 09:46
...and if it doesn't work, will the guys who spent the guzillian dollars on a useless tunnel disappear up their own black holes?

NIGELINOZ
10th Sep 2008, 10:14
and if it doesn't work, will the guys who spent the guzillian dollars on a useless tunnel disappear up their own black holes?

How do you define "doesn't work"?
The science behind this experiment is fascinating,and the potential benefits incredible to behold,for example,if the technology behaves as predicted it could be used to rid the world of some nuclear waste and provide us with a better understanding of how the world was created which can only be a good thing.
As for the costs involved the average cost to a UK taxpayer is 50p a year which is a lot less than what you pay for the TV licence fee.

Re-entry
10th Sep 2008, 10:14
Why do they build these things underground, instead of on the surface?

Cuz if they put the world's largest fridge on the surface it would counteract global warming, then all their climate change buddies would be out of a job.

Actually it's cuz accelerating charged particles in a curved path produces harmful synchrotron radiation, which a few feet of rock and soil absorb. Also to prevent sabotage.

NIGELINOZ
10th Sep 2008, 10:23
And it was a scientist at CERN,Tim Berners-Lee who came up with the idea for the world wide web,where would PPRuNE be without him?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

Re-entry
10th Sep 2008, 10:57
No matter how they spin it with this media charm offensive, the fundamental fact remains that the nature of the predictions is relativistically uncertain.

Coupling this with the reaction of the wider scientific community, I charge that it may be a total waste of energy.

Perhaps I just don't appreciate the gravity of what they are doing, so I shall remain neutrino for now.

dead_pan
10th Sep 2008, 11:00
The science behind this experiment is fascinating,and the potential benefits incredible to behold,for example,if the technology behaves as predicted it could be used to rid the world of some nuclear waste

Hmm - this argument is usually wheeled out to justify some hugely expensive scientific endeavour. From long personal experience in this field I can assure you that these 'spin-offs' are few and far between. I remember going to Houston in the late 90s and being given the third degree from NASA about the spin-off benefits of the International Space Station. What has happened since to this venture? Little or no spin-off (or science for that matter) of value. From recent press reports the entire project is in jeopardy given the dire state of relations between the US and Russia.

I'm sure our knowledge of particle physics will be greatly extended by this project however one does have to question whether this money could have been better spent elsewhere. Personally I'm hoping that this will be the physic's community last hurrah.

helimutt
10th Sep 2008, 11:06
I watched them all cheering when a momentary blip appeared on the screen. How can you count down in french, then have something happen at light speed? Does this mean my degree in physics is now old hat and I have to re-learn all that guff again? LOL:{

The most complex scientific device ever built, and no-one saw a thing! LMAO

BlueWolf
10th Sep 2008, 11:08
So where are they getting these "particles" from, is what I want to know; who's supplying them, from what base material are they maufactured, can we be sure that they're GE-free, and how, can someone tell me, are they going to insert them into the accelerator-tube thingy, if it's supposed to be SEALED? Eh? Hmm?

Plenty of questions still to be answered here, methinks. :suspect:

Also, do we get to "ride the lightning", as it were, via way of some sort of "particle-cam"? They can make those things pretty small these days, as I understand.

We need answers.

angels
10th Sep 2008, 11:14
Wait folks, its already affecting Pprune.

Try posting on the Kim Jong Ill thread and you will go back (or forward) in time. It must the Swiss!

dead_pan
10th Sep 2008, 11:16
Was lying in bed this morning contemplating the end of the world, thinking about how all of life on Earth would be extinguished with no trace being left, how all of man's endavours will be for nowt etc. Then I got up, the lights blew in the bathroom, the kids were bickering downstairs, the missus moaning that I hadn't put the bins out and I thought - actually, it wouldn't be so bad...

Anyway, given we are still here I thought an appropriate song for the moment would be 'Not Yet Dead' from Monty Python's Spamalot stage show - all together now!

BlueWolf
10th Sep 2008, 11:17
How can you count down in french, then have something happen at light speed?

...get 'em to surrender after the count of ten. :E

Standard Noise
10th Sep 2008, 11:19
If it all goes tits up will I have time to stick on a classical CD and light up a Hamlet before I disappear?:uhoh:

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 11:35
Is it true all the Swiss chocolate has melted? :uhoh:

the_hawk
10th Sep 2008, 12:13
first high-energy collisions are planned to take place after the LHC is officially unveiled on 21 October 2008

you may wait with your last cigar and Swiss chocolate jokes until then ;)

@SN: no time at all, that's the funny thing, if it goes wrong, nobody will know (or be)

incidentally, the penalty for 6.5billionfold involuntary manslaughter (or whatever prevailing case law calls it) is capital punishment, no trial, no verdict, immediately executed...

billa
10th Sep 2008, 12:16
Fearing end of world, girl commits suicide in Madhya Pradesh
10 Sep 2008, 1607 hrs IST,PTI

INDORE: A 16-year-old girl in Madhya Pradesh allegedly committed suicide after watching news on channels about possibility of the end of earth following the atom-smasher experiment in Geneva that began on Wednesday.

Chhaya, a resident of Sarangpur town in Rajgarh district, consumed sulphos tablets (an insecticide) yesterday, her parents said.

The girl was rushed to Indore's MY Hospital where she succumbed on Wednesday.

Her parents told reporters she was watching about the world's biggest atom-smasher experiment in Geneva on news channels since the last two days following which she got restless and ended her life.

Police have registered a case in this regard and further probe was on.

The experiment is being carried out to recreate the birth of universe and unlock its secrets. Scientists have rubbished reports of threat to the planet due to the experiment.

Fearing end of world, girl commits suicide in Madhya Pradesh-India-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Fearing_end_of_world_girl_commits_suicide_in_Madhya_Pradesh/articleshow/3467519.cms)

the_hawk
10th Sep 2008, 12:21
so you are from darwen? award!

denis555
10th Sep 2008, 12:22
Just gone out to check that the water still swirls round the right way for the Northern Hemisphere - it does *phew*:ok:

the_hawk
10th Sep 2008, 12:31
May I suggest making a collect call to Australia to check if it is swirling the right (left?) way there, too. And don't be surprised if the guy there has to ask his neighbor first, just don't hang up the phone, eventually he'll answer around midnight.

MadsDad
10th Sep 2008, 12:58
So we gotta wait another 2mths before they fire a beam of particles in the opposite direction...


According to the news everything is going so well they're thinking about firing a beam the opposite way this afternoon.

And remember '..whatever happens DON'T LET THE BEAMS CROSS'. Otherwise you get nasty monsters in your fridge.

xetroV
10th Sep 2008, 14:13
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com (http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/) :)

ORAC
10th Sep 2008, 15:33
LHC Beam Commissioning (http://lhc-commissioning.web.cern.ch/lhc-commissioning/)

....10th September: First attempt to bring protons around the full circumference, and the full commissioning with beams will start. It is expected that it will take about 6 - 8 weeks to have first collisions at 10 TeV centre of mass energy.

Beatriz Fontana
10th Sep 2008, 15:38
An old rule of PR has sprung to mind. If you want to get attention, add a touch of fear...

So, lots of scientists larging it in Switzerland. Need a bit of publicity for something that has been running for years and will go on running for a few months more. Boring, say the media. Ah, say the scientists, there's the slightest possibility it could cause the end of the world. Now you're talking, say the media....

frostbite
10th Sep 2008, 15:39
From what I've seen of it so far, it looks like it was made by the ACME Manufacturing Co. for Wile E. Coyote.

denis555
10th Sep 2008, 15:55
From what I've seen of it so far, it looks like it was made by the ACME Manufacturing Co. for Wile E. Coyote.


:ok:

A rumour has gone round my child's school that September 10th 2008 is the end of the Mayan Calender = End of The World... luckly I've got xetroV's URL to prove them wrong.

Re-entry
10th Sep 2008, 16:07
It is my sad duty to inform all readers that it did finally occur on 09 OCT 2008.

I am now returning to bethlehem to re-visit events there to effect a more advantageous outcome.

G-CPTN
10th Sep 2008, 16:25
Just heard that they're getting cocky and anticipating a collision sometime later this evening.
Can they work properly in the dark?

Beatriz Fontana
10th Sep 2008, 16:27
They've been drinking champagne all day, too... hope it's not going to their heads....

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 16:42
With all the hype I wonder if the boffins will secretly bring forward the "collision" date?

HAH! We fooled you !!!

denis555
10th Sep 2008, 16:56
I have just looked out og the wndow and I hate to tell you but............

.........TRAFFIC WARDENS STILL EXIST!.....

The world can't gave changed much then.

obgraham
10th Sep 2008, 17:24
Your relief may be premature. The way I read it, these "black holes" are "mini black holes", and have just gotten started. They'll take a while to expand and consume the earth. Stray bits of light will emerge from, say, the Indian Ocean. Perhaps a year or two till the whole earth vanishes. 2012. The Mayans were right.

frostbite
10th Sep 2008, 18:04
That's handy - save us the bother of the Olympics then.

Krystal n chips
10th Sep 2008, 19:12
And for all those who may have decided to engage in, ahem, one last carnal pursuit with others than their usual participant.....due to the imminent implosion of Earth.....now is the time for some "expedient talking".....:E

Phil1980's
10th Sep 2008, 19:17
All this horrible media on ITV GMTV about it being the end of the world...Their scary faces looking at us through the T.V yet 1 minute later they go.....
Right then here's todays competition phone in:
Which TV show is spanish?
The Bill
Emmerdale
Or Benidorm
I mean WTF! yeah talk serious and put on serious videos and tell us that we should fear about the end of earth and then a stupid competition...I mean they just seem to enjoy scaring people...and the didnt do it in a joking way...yet they really knew it wasnt much about anything...I got more relief listening to the BBC presenters than those GMTV'ers
Anyway All this about it being today...How can it be today because the two beams havent collided yet! Or were they thinking just one beam was going to cause the black hole...You see they don't explain it clearly the news!

MadsDad
10th Sep 2008, 19:40
"What would you do if you knew the World was about to end?"
"Shag anything that moved. What would you do?"
"Stand very, very still"

621andy
10th Sep 2008, 20:26
Well I'm sat here not a million miles from Geneva and we haven't disappeared up our own hindsights yet;)

Heard on cuckooclocklandradio earlier that they'd wobbled the jobby clockwise round the track 2 hours after start up and they'd later done it t'other way round. Next attempt was to wop them both round together but no time scale mentioned...waaah, why's the world gone blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....

G-CPTN
10th Sep 2008, 20:36
It is, of course, feasible that the first collision was (very) closely followed by a second collision.
The second reversed the annihilation of the first and recreated 'the World' again. Because the separation between the two events was so small, persistence of image permitted things to appear unchanged.
Of course, we won't know for some time exactly what might have 'fallen through the gap', so if you discover that your bank account has been reset to zero or you have lost something . . . http://209.85.48.8/1889/52/emo/ermthink.gif

dead_pan
10th Sep 2008, 20:40
The people who'd predicted the world would end today were obviously the same ones who'd predicted we'd reach 200USD a barrel by the end of the year and look where they are now - err, hold on, you say the oil price is going back up again? Uh oh :eek:

G-CPTN
10th Sep 2008, 20:48
If the primary stream of protons is travelling at almost the speed of light . . .


. . . and the secondary stream of protons is travelling in the opposite direction at almost the speed of light . . .


What is the speed of any collision?

I think we should be told.

Richard Taylor
10th Sep 2008, 20:59
If I see a T.Rex marauding the streets, I'll know who to blame! :eek:

con-pilot
10th Sep 2008, 21:00
If the primary stream of protons is travelling at almost the speed of light . . .


. . . and the secondary stream of protons is travelling in the opposite direction at almost the speed of light . . .


What is the speed of any collision?

I think we should be told.

Well, logically at almost at twice the speed of light. But wait, it can't exceed the speed of light, but 2x2=, err, 1 1/2, no, that would be,,2? Hum, can't be..................................


Why did you ask that question? :{

dazdaz
10th Sep 2008, 21:05
I've reduced and made simple for non physicists to understand. It's quite simple, honest....
Writing the Lorentz transformation and its inverse in terms of coordinate differences we get
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/4/9/3491a6c9567162e3c7b087b89afb1cfd.png and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/e/b/2eb931bf3d165b17113d841d8c0ccd33.png

Daz.....Clever Bast:mad:d

con-pilot
10th Sep 2008, 21:08
Oh, sure, now that I can understand, rather simple really. Don't I feel the fool.



;)

Old Hairy
10th Sep 2008, 21:09
G-CPTN.
that your bank account has been reset to zero or you have lost something .

Not zero....but there was a bloody great black hole in mine this afternoon!!

tony draper
10th Sep 2008, 21:11
The impact speed of course will be almost the speed of light,however because both are traveling at almost the speed of light obviously their mass will have increased greatly ergo the impact will be all the more violent,ie the energy will be greater than if a stationary proton was struck by one traveling at almost the speed of light,
This is simple nursery school physics up here in Geordieland :rolleyes:

G-CPTN
10th Sep 2008, 21:16
On a simpler level, the linear speed of the particle can never reach the speed of light, as it is vectored to follow the curve of the circular tract - I think . . .

(Or, because the resultant velocity would be the hypotenuse of the vector triangle, could it raise the linear velocity?)

My head bone is starting to hurt.

obgraham
10th Sep 2008, 21:19
Wouldn't it have been a lot simpler to just aim a couple of flashlights at each other and check to see what happens when they meet?

I'll go downstairs and give it a go, and get back to you all.

dazdaz
10th Sep 2008, 21:20
It is a delight Mr. Draper you have comprehended my #121 post.

Daz

tony draper
10th Sep 2008, 21:21
No the proton can never achieve the speed of light because it has mass, the entire energy output of the universe for a billion years could not persuade said proton to the speed of light not matter how big a tin tunnel they dug forrit. :uhoh:

Um... lifting...
10th Sep 2008, 22:10
...alright... but if you accelerate say... a couple of drams of Scotch in opposite directions to say... just short of the speed of light and have them do an unholy smash... don't you end up with more Scotch? And if so, how do you access it? And can you cobble together one of these tunnels from some galvanized sheet metal, an old electric motor, and a gross of duct tape?

(con-pilot really wanted to know this one)

If you take Gordon Brown and put him in one of these tiny black holes... would anyone notice?

aviate1138
10th Sep 2008, 22:33
One of the scientists when interviewed, explained in simple [ ie my] terms the near impossibility of any black hole eating the earth up.

"Think [he said] of two small mosquito like bugs colliding and that is the sort of order we are talking about."

Is it just me or too many people being duped into believing anything however implausible,
simply because it is said on television.

X-Files, Spooks etc are not reality, merely hyped up entertainment for the masses. But in the UK some people actually believe them to be true.

tony draper
10th Sep 2008, 22:55
Amusing to watch the various news meeja folks groping for a understandable analogy to explain what would occur in the LHC,the best one involved chocolate biscuits.
:rolleyes:

dead_pan
10th Sep 2008, 23:03
Hold on though, according to my bluffers guide to relativity, a particle travelling at almost the speed of light will have almost infinite mass. If this is the case, surely they'll get wedged in the pipe the instant before they collide?

Incidentally, did anyone notice the sound effect CERN had used on their computer animation of the collision? It sounded just like a Metropolitan Line underground train. Does lead me to an interesting proposition - could CERN have used the Circle Line for this experiment? After all, it must be around the right length and is more-or-less circular. We could have used the 5 gazillion quid to build ourselves a shiny new underground system.

G-CPTN
10th Sep 2008, 23:45
So are you suggesting that two Circle Line trains should travel in opposite directions until they reach (almost) the speed of light, before being directed onto a collision course?

BombayDuck
11th Sep 2008, 06:54
Has anyone realized that obgraham hasn't returned? :bored: :uhoh: :ooh:

Buster Hyman
11th Sep 2008, 06:59
Well, I’ve had a quick look around here on the opposite side of the planet and everything appears to be normal!

ORAC
11th Sep 2008, 07:09
Quote:
If the primary stream of protons is travelling at almost the speed of light . . .
. . . and the secondary stream of protons is travelling in the opposite direction at almost the speed of light . . .

What is the speed of any collision? I think we should be told.

Just under the speed of light.

Don't blame me, blame that Einstein bloke.

Loose rivets
11th Sep 2008, 07:37
The torque wrench was given an extra click or two to make sure, that in the event of an emergency, the conveyor belt would not burst out.

Phil1980's
11th Sep 2008, 08:08
Buster? Do I have to change the font to translate your encryption :D

BlueWolf
11th Sep 2008, 08:20
So are you suggesting that two Circle Line trains should travel in opposite directions until they reach (almost) the speed of light, before being directed onto a collision course?

You'd have to do it at the weekend then, too many stops in The City during the week to build up any momentum, or at least there always were in the Old Days when we were attempting the Pub Crawl of the same name.


If the primary stream of protons is travelling at almost the speed of light . . .


. . . and the secondary stream of protons is travelling in the opposite direction at almost the speed of light . . .


What is the speed of any collision?

Ooooh. :ooh: Now we're fecked....:p:D:ok: but actually, from the point of collision, speed or velocity is diminishing rapidly, and neither party was actually going at faster than the speed of light, so collision velocity is a bit of a red herring; I think. Not sure if such applies to antimatter.

ORAC
11th Sep 2008, 08:43
Not sure if such applies to antimatter. Well you get positrons spun off going at a fair lick.

Course, Mr D will tell you they're just his, or Mr Feynmann's, single electron bouncing back and forth in time.

What we really need isn't a Large Hadron Accelerator, but a tachyon decelerator........ :p

tony draper
11th Sep 2008, 08:50
What is predictable is said Hadron kit will raise more questions than answers and boffins will say "We need a bigger collider to answer these new questions"
One has a propriety interest, me late Uncle Les make lots of bits for the first CERN thingy, he used to make our buckets of sunshine,but had to seek different employment when the feckin fluffies said we must not make buckets of sunshine as they upset people.
:)
A good way for these civilians to learn of yer mysterious Tachyons Mr ORAC is to read a short Sci Fi story called The Ophiocus Hotline
:ok:

iws
11th Sep 2008, 12:52
Quote:
If the primary stream of protons is travelling at almost the speed of light . . .
. . . and the secondary stream of protons is travelling in the opposite direction at almost the speed of light . . .

What is the speed of any collision? I think we should be told.
AS Orac said:

Just under the speed of light.

Because time slows down and space shrinks for the protons.

shedhead
11th Sep 2008, 13:05
part of the experiment is to find the Higgs boson which will provide the explanation of why particles have mass this will then confirm the theory of gravity and the fact that yes the universe sucks

CATIII-NDB
11th Sep 2008, 13:21
OK DazDaz - Are those the langrainian form of the Shrodinger wave functions for the classes of sub atomic Wavicles - See not all SLF are Stupid (Cannot Spell though). Easy - Bollaux

CAT III.

dazdaz
11th Sep 2008, 17:07
CATTIII
What are "Wavicles"? Are they some sub atomic in the field of quark research? If so I have a paper you might enjoy reading, published in 'Physics Today' 28/7/08 It mainly deals/pontificates as to the similarity between the xy quark when bombarded (original experiment and credit to Dr.Augustas Balls of Vienna 1926) as to the outcome of sub atomic collisions less than the speed of light.

Daz

Jimmy Macintosh
11th Sep 2008, 18:57
I found this video excellent to get the salient points across...

CERN rap video about the Large Hadron Collider creates a black hole of awesomeness - Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/08/cern-rap-video-about-the-large-hadron-collider-creates-a-black-h/)

Click on the picture.

Loose rivets
11th Sep 2008, 20:36
We had a thread many moons ago, in which I put forward the notion that bumping into a like mass at equal and opposite velocity, was the same as bumping into an immovable object. Two cars in space, each at 30mph, would experience a dead stop equivalent to 30 each at the point(s) of contact -- providing nothing slewed orf to one side. So it is with a proton.

The thing is that the proton doesn't care where it is...well, until one comes the other way and knocks the stuffing out of it. So all it knows is that it can't get past that point in space, so it thinks, BoIIox! If that's the case, I'm going to disperse myself by changing into me fundamentals...little knowing that its parts are going to be curved, swallowed and transformed by mankind's attempts to read the mind of God.

What in this universe, has radiation and even smaller bits, got to do with God's mind?

tony draper
11th Sep 2008, 22:24
Anyway I would not worry, for every particle that results from such a collision a anti particle is produced simultaneously, ergo the black hole and the anti black hole will annhialate each other instantly.
I dunno how to spell anhialate so I just took a shot.
:uhoh:

mercurydancer
11th Sep 2008, 22:49
Its simple really this CERN stuff

The proton pulse going around one way causes the Big Bang and the one going the other way causes the gnaB giB thus making sure the planet is safe

CATIII-NDB
11th Sep 2008, 23:11
Thanks Dazdaz - Re your request - I will literally have to look up a ref - Re Bucher 1 st Edition - You will let you know AM tomorrow.

Wavicles - Particles/Waves in a packet - Spatial fuzziness - I bet you are an engineer.

This means WAR ( I have a Physics A ' Level )

CAT III.

Arm out the window
11th Sep 2008, 23:17
You can't put too much store in the findings of Dr Augustas Balls - everyone used to say he was nuts.

Richard Taylor
12th Sep 2008, 08:10
Or a load of Balls.

Buster Hyman
12th Sep 2008, 11:10
What a funny ol' scrote was Augustus....

BAMRA wake up
12th Sep 2008, 11:26
There is a competition running now for a funkier name for the experiment.

The NY Times, no less, got the unfamiliar wording wrong. Quote:

'Large hardon collider'

Ozzy
12th Sep 2008, 16:05
The guys at CERN have put up a couple of web cams. One of the collider and the other of the parking lot. See them here (http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html).

Ozzy

Richard Taylor
12th Sep 2008, 16:49
"They paved Paradise...put up a...Hardon Collider" :eek:

Halfbaked_Boy
12th Sep 2008, 17:39
Loose Rivets - would I be right in thinking that the one difference would be the damage caused to the vehicles in such an analogy? Whilst the dead stop equivilant makes sense to me as of course the two objects are each exerting an equal force on one another (hence ultimate v = 0), but the initial difference in speed in your example is 60 mph as opposed to 30 mph when striking a stationary, unmoveable object? I love considering things like this, but they don't half hurt the noggin :ugh:

Jack

Loose rivets
12th Sep 2008, 19:44
Hard to imagine with a car. Every fragment of glass would have to hit its counterpart square on. Better think of two cubes of iron.

Place a membrane in space and call that speed zero. Each block travels towards the other at 30 mph relative to that membrane. The experiment has been contrived to allow the blocks to arrive either side of the membrane at exactly the same instant.

While the sum of the velocities is indeed 60 mph, each block experiences a deceleration from 30, to the datum zero. The fact that the breaking is done by a similar block is irrelevant, all it has to be is something that will stop the other block.

Providing the membrane does not move, what's on the other side of it can remain a mystery. The block stops from 30.

BlueWolf
12th Sep 2008, 22:54
Thought for the day; this whole collider business is exactly the same thing as a bunch of small boys throwing rocks at other rocks in an attempt to break them open and see what's inside. The only real differences are that the boys are bigger and the rocks are smaller.

Neither of them has any idea of what may or may not be inside, or what purpose may be served by finding out, and it's all good fun till someone loses an eye or gets their finger in the way of a rock....:p

rodthesod
13th Sep 2008, 10:48
Loose Rivets

I clicked your link and went to the CMS (Search for God experiment) - clicked on the video run button and got the message 'This does not seem to be working - try again later'. So I reckon we're up there without a paddle. 'Whyfore hath thou forsaken me?'

rts

Binoculars
13th Sep 2008, 13:53
Loose Rivets, it's possible I started that thread, not because I have any understanding whatever of particle physics, or even electricity, but because a friend of mine who majored in pure mathematics (and was as mad as a cut snake) tried to explain it to me one night in a very drunken state. I was utterly unable to comprehend.

I understood the basic principle that you have just explained so well about the reduction from 30 to zero, but my simple mind kept coming back to earthly criteria. Are you trying to tell me, said I, that two cars having a head on collision while each travelling at X mph would suffer only the same damage as one travelling at X mph and hitting the well-known immovable object? Yes, quoth he. My cerebral limitations were suddenly and clearly exposed to me and I wept copiously, suddenly understanding why my father had written me off as a clueless jerk. There are many others on this forum who still share that opinion.

I'm glad you have come up with the simile regarding the two blocks of iron and the comment about every piece of each car having to strike at the same angle. I think I finally understand. Thank you.

I'm too lazy to do a search, but if i were to search my posts for "neither created nor destroyed" I'm sure there would be only one possible match.

BRL
13th Sep 2008, 15:33
Eight webcams are online now.

Click Here.......... (http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html)

cockney steve
13th Sep 2008, 15:58
So, try getting your head round:-
the speed of the particles is 99.9% speed of light
when you change the direction of a moving object in a collision, it speeds up
(ricochet (sp?) , principle of cyclone, snooker ball collisions )
The particles collide...bits fly off, THEORETICALLY they go faster!( thus exceeding the speed of light)
Discounting the latter, ...how the Fxxx can the electronics, which are constrained by the speed of electricity in copper wire, capture the event??

trick question!








they don't, but apparently they record the effects of the passage of those particles.

Why build underground?- Isolation from cosmic radiation.
Hydrogen gas is admitted , electrons stripped and protons moved on "down the runway"...tunnel/chambers are sealed and AFAIK evacuated.

My daughter did her PhD working on the Atlas trigger and had several good jollies at CERN :) She's happily employed and has no wish to be terminated in a hurry, As this collider has been in development for a number of years, many, many extremely bright people have passed through CERN's doors most of them are out and about near YOU.....if there was a risk, she'd have 'fessed up to dad so he could spend all his dosh first :} (or one of them would have bubbled!

Regarding the "closing speed "conundrum-in the motor trade, we chewed this one over and concluded that if you dropped a sheet of "unobtanium" paper between the vehicles at the moment of impact, the paper wouldn't move but each vehicle would act as if it had hit an immovable object.
After you've seen "a few" bumped vehicles,it confirms as true.

CATIII-NDB
13th Sep 2008, 16:24
Thought Experiment: Imagine we are watching one of the proton beams and riding along with it.

Your analogy of the membrane betewwn the proton beams at the instant of collision is a nice way of explaining the relativistic properties of the collision - Each proton does not "see" the other proton coomming the otherway at 1.99 times the speed of light c - As I partly understand that Mass & Energy are conserved in the colision. So its the apparent mass of the on comming proton rushing up to meet its counterpart at 0.99c that increases as "seen" from the "inertal frame of reference" i.e our membraine of the proton in our frame of reference. I hope this helps people understand a little bit of what is happening in the instant of the proton - proton collision. Its the Mass/Energy of the collision that creates for a tiny instant the "soup of particles" close to the universe at the start of the big bang.

CAT III

Arm out the window
14th Sep 2008, 00:34
So, try getting your head round:-
the speed of the particles is 99.9% speed of light
when you change the direction of a moving object in a collision, it speeds up
(ricochet (sp?) , principle of cyclone, snooker ball collisions )

I'm not sure about this bit. For an object to change direction it must undergo an acceleration, but that's not necessarily speeding up - just its velocity vector pointing in a different direction.
Depending on the relative masses, velocities and approach angles of things in a collision, they may bounce off at greater or lesser speeds than they had before, but it doesn't follow that they will speed up.

Loose rivets
14th Sep 2008, 19:08
Mmmm...post removed, cos I read it having sobered up.:uhoh: << me, this morning.

tony draper
14th Sep 2008, 21:25
:uhoh:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a194/Deaddogbay/largehadroncollidertp3.jpg

Richard Taylor
14th Sep 2008, 21:51
Switzerland hasn't changed a bit! :E