PDA

View Full Version : More Jetstar Trips


Qanchor
5th Sep 2008, 03:01
The press release said, "Jetstar this week began operating direct services from Darwin to Sydney and Ho Chi Minh City".

What has really happened is that due to incredibly poor loads, (on one flight 14 pax), J* has abandoned it's A330 service SYD-TSN, and will now operate an A321 SYD-DRW-TSN.

Is J*Int becoming the proverbial millstone?

Ken Borough
5th Sep 2008, 04:34
It's called "spin". Nothing like trying to create something new out of failure.

But...how long before we see Jetstar totally out of the Vietnam market, especially as the Jetstar parent offers non-stop services (code-ahare with Vietnam Airlines) from Sydney and Melbourne to Saigon for not that many more dollars than Jetstar charge for a two-stop narrow body ordeal. The punters will surely vote with their feet.

moa999
5th Sep 2008, 04:43
I somewhat disagree.

Given the Jetstar investment in Jetstar Pacific (BL), I think they will try and support the SGN routes to put in feeder traffic, particularly if BL is able to get international routes out of SGN

Jet Jockey
5th Sep 2008, 05:48
From management. The reason J* 330s were taken away from SGN and indeed KUL was the aircraft were needed to take over the Q slots left behind by the red rat exiting NRT in Japan. The reasoning Q made a lot of money 10 years ago out of Japan and did not want to lose the slots. May be very hard if not impssible to get back in the future. J* had spare capacity with 320s to hub from Darwin. A descision a lot of staff find hard to swallow since SGN was so popular with consistent big loads. Q management pull most of the J* strings in case you had noy guessed.

captaintunedog777
5th Sep 2008, 05:54
Fantastic hey Qanchor. Great news. Now if you are just able to think laterally on this one. Who knows you might be Captain material one day.

Now could it be just possible, the whole intention of the route is not Sydney and everyone then goes on to Vietnam. JUst maybe it's a flight to Darwin with the a/c arriving from Mel, Adelaide, Perth, Cairns and maybe other ports around the same time. There a choice of Singa, Bali, Vietnam, Phlilpines and other S.E destinations is available. The a/c the then goes onto Vietnam. Hence that flight to Vietnam might be 20% from Syd, 20% Adelaide, 20% Cairns and the balance from Darwin.

What do ya reckon??? Maybe they do know what their doing.

But the great Aussie way now is to shoot anyone down prepared to give it a shot.

apacau
5th Sep 2008, 06:32
Minor point, but the service is 320 not 321 operated.

As for the reasons for it, I think it's a mix of all the above:
1) Yes, QF wanted the 330s for Japan and there was no spare capacity
2) Yes, there was extra narrowbody capacity available
3) Yes QF pull many of Jetstar's strings (another example is Jetstar not being 'allowed' to operate to Canberra)
4) Yes, the hub strategy is part of it, and finally
5) Sydney is NOT the centre of the universe

Qanchor
5th Sep 2008, 07:19
Good thought Capt777, but if the service was such a winner surely it would fill a 330 ex DRW. Sadly not the case.
Putting more J* 330's into Japan, could be a case of putting good money after bad, since the brand has already proved to be a failure there. Maybe there's an underlying reason for doing this. Gee, is that lateral thinking??
On the subject of lateral thinking, thanks for pointing out another missing component from my skillset. When my command opportunity does come up one day, maybe I'll know how not to react to news I don't want to hear.
As an (off thread) addendum, if all was good in J*I, why then at a recent T&C meeting was it mooted that pay cuts may be on the way.

Muff Hunter
5th Sep 2008, 07:46
not another qf driver slagging of JQ, you guys are really getting quite boring...

Q(W)anker JQ is here to stay...get over it..it will continue to grow internationally at your expense..

for your info, the loads out of drw to singers have been quite good, and i'd expect the same to HCM and other asian destinations...

"pay cuts on the way" your a dhead mate, go away..

Jetbest
5th Sep 2008, 08:01
Average load factor on A330 80% each way last 12 months.Freight uplift average 10tons ex Syd and 20 Tons Ex VVTS.Freight often sacraficed due high pax Nos IE MLW limited 180tons.
QF want the A330 for Japan and have taken them of other FLTs as they did originally from Australian ex CNS.Also one aircraft less[5] due to C checks for next 5 months.Do not know why but do know that will run at a loss but not as much as QF.
QF A330 at present are costing 10million more to operate per annum that JQ A330.This is the first time identical aircraft can be compared in the group.This is not subsidised figures as some like to pontificate on this forum but real hard cash.Joyce was not made CEO of the QF group with unreal costs and fake figures.Some reasons for this saving.
1.No load control.Jq pilots do there own.QF have over 200 people in load control.
2.JQ use mostly Flap 1 takeoffs.QF always use flap2.Airbus state that Flap 1 uses up to 600kg less on takeoff and can be higher saving depending on flap retraction timing.
3.JQ tailor flap and Flex.At present JQ are using up to 5degress better flex at same weights and R/W.Each 1degree is $100,000 saving PA.

This list is by no means exhaustive but hopefully will show to some people it is not our EBA of 44 Pages and pay rates that deliver real cost savings to the group and hopefully keep us all employed.


Having read EBA 8 and the comments against it [I doubt it will get up] the QF guys are still on a deal either way which is still the best pay with conditions in the world.I hope the group remains profitable enough to support either EBA!!!.

neville_nobody
5th Sep 2008, 08:46
This is not subsidised figures as some like to pontificate on this forum but real hard cash

No not at all :rolleyes:
What value would you put the use of QF lounges at?
What about the QF FF program?
What exactly was the price paid for the A330?
Not to mention the "Qantas Group" slogan that gets pulled out whenever Jetstar stuff up. etc etc

Jetstar is a separate entity when it suits Qantas and it is 'Qantas Group' when it suits Qantas.

Leaves begging the question what is Jetstar really?

Lookleft
5th Sep 2008, 09:56
Leaves begging the question what is Jetstar really?

Here to stay whether you like it or not.

moa999
5th Sep 2008, 10:52
What value would you put the use of QF lounges at?
What about the QF FF program?
What exactly was the price paid for the A330?


The only JQ passengers who get QF lounges are high-tier QFF passengers. Certainly the First lounge is operated on an outsourced basis (Sofitel) so would assume that JQ pays here.

QF program - has been financially separated from main airline and JQ for over 12 months in lead up to potential float. Arms length transactions where QF and JQ effectively buy points that are accounting classified as deferred revenue for QF Group

The same as what QF mainline would pay for the A330

RAD_ALT_ALIVE
5th Sep 2008, 12:01
I really hate to enter the fray with facts, when conjecture obviously is the communique of preference here.

The only reason the widebody flying was cut back (not now referring to the change from KIX/NGO to NRT/KIX), was because of one simple little fact; EBA to EBD are scheduled to rotate through MNL for their 'C' checks (and other stuff). The result is that JQ is now working on the premise that it will be one widebody aircraft short until Feb, 09.

So the bean-counters had to sit and decide which of our destinations to cutback (more than likely, temporarily) until we're back to full strength.

Yields, load factors, costs and ultimately profits were all examined before the final mix of 'reduced' services was decided.

My guess is that the A330 will go back to one, if not both, axed destinations (KUL/SGN) once all puppies are back in the dog house.

Now back to rumour and gossip...

Oh, BTW Qanchor, where in the IATA world is TSN? I'm pretty sure that wherever it is, JQ don't go there - yet.:confused:

What The
5th Sep 2008, 12:14
ton son nuet

And yes you do fly there.

Transition Layer
5th Sep 2008, 12:58
The only JQ passengers who get QF lounges are high-tier QFF passengers.

Wrong moa999...from the Jetscab website:

All StarClass passengers will have access to the Qantas Club, where one is available at the airport from which they are departing

The continual defensive behaviour from (presumably) Jetscar pilots is getting a bit repetitive. Let's face it, the JQ International model does not work!!! The real numbers will come out once Clifford gets his hand on the books. The 330's should be back in Qantas service making real money on Sydney/Melbourne-Perth and being flown by pilots on first world wages.

dodgybrothers
5th Sep 2008, 13:38
whenever jetstar stuffup eh? Methinks qantas is doing a good job of that by themselves.

I thankyou.....

Douglas Mcdonnell
5th Sep 2008, 13:55
Transition layer, are you still a closet private school stripey jacket/ straw hat wearing wannabe. Christ, age 27 and nearly 800 posts? Shouldn't you be out chasing girls and or hanging out with your mates instead of randomly slagging off at others?.

Didn't they teach you anything in cadet or should I call it, deep voice school.

Your posts indicate that you could have an undiagnosed syndrome. You should get it checked out!!

Doug

mmmbop
5th Sep 2008, 21:22
Here to stay whether you like it or not.

One* Domestic - yes.

One* Intl - Hmmmmmm............

M

Transition Layer
5th Sep 2008, 23:24
Douglas McDonnell,

Christ, age 27 and nearly 800 posts? Shouldn't you be out chasing girls and or hanging out with your mates instead of randomly slagging off at others?.

Nearly 800 posts in 7 years, works out at about 1 every 3 or 4 days. Still leaves plenty of time for the activities you mentioned I would have thought.

As for cadet and private school - wrong on both counts buddy. Try again...

Captain Sherm
5th Sep 2008, 23:57
Transition Layer.....

You are probably young, and hence...at least from your posts, overly full of pre-conceived ideas. And you will have never had the experience of seeing inflexible management preside over the demise of an airline because they wouldn't re-deploy assets, never tried anything new, were afraid to reverse decisions, couldn't adapt to a changing world, wouldn't meet the competition head on etc etc.

But it seems to me from the outside that the Qantas group.....(which, FYI is not Mainline Pilots plus a lot of little ugly step-brothers and sisters....)....is at least getting a fair chunk of it right. Yet you constantly refer in cruel terms to Jetstar as though it was some deformed malignant growth.

Take a step back and think through this stuff. Read some airline history. Qantas without it's group capabilities (which includes the vast 320, 737, 380 and 787 orders ahead, QantasLink, JQ and all the associated group capabilities....would be a very rapidly dying museum flight of big fuel hungry jets carrying an ever diminishing number of beautifully preserved High Yield Passengers.

When and if you get your jet command...you will see as though with newly opened eyes, that the world is a big place, full of airlines and strategies you never heard of before. Under the new CEO, Qantas as a group has the best chance it could ever have of a good future. He won't be perfect, few of us are. But he'll give it his best shot. Be thankful he's doing that.

And finally....hatred has no place in a pilot's lexicon, in or out of the cockpit. Life is short and God meant it to be sweet. If to get that you need to leave flying and find a world where you are happy....I wish you well on that journey. Just don't pollute this world, the one many of us love....with venom and spleen.

Safe flying

captaintunedog777
6th Sep 2008, 02:17
ditto................

Transition Layer
6th Sep 2008, 03:24
You guys just don't get it. The sheer frustration of watching Qantas aircraft and the many subsequent promotions go to Jetstar to be flown by pilots on seriously lower wages forces me to vent my spleen on Pprune.

I don't apologise for that...and I know I'm not the only one in Qantas who thinks that way.

Despite earlier misgivings I am willing to sit back and give Alan Joyce a fair go. I didn't say anywhere in my post anything to the contrary.

Cheers

P.S. tunedog, thanks for your usual brilliant insight.

speedbirdhouse
6th Sep 2008, 03:37
Ah.............

That would be "Captain" tunedog :eek:

Captain Marvel
6th Sep 2008, 03:51
Jetbest,

1.No load control.Jq pilots do there own.QF have over 200 people in load control.
2.JQ use mostly Flap 1 takeoffs.QF always use flap2.Airbus state that Flap 1 uses up to 600kg less on takeoff and can be higher saving depending on flap retraction timing.
3.JQ tailor flap and Flex.At present JQ are using up to 5degress better flex at same weights and R/W.Each 1degree is $100,000 saving PA.


Not wanting to get into a JQ, QF bash as I think both outfits have a place and opportunity to be very successful. But, I question your figures.

I don't know where you get your figures from, but suggest you read "Getting to grips with Fuel Economy" by Airbus.

1. Using Config 2 rather than Config 1+F uses 12kg more fuel for the A330 during a full thrust take-off, the penalty increases with flex a bit. Where did you get the 600kg from?

2. Higher flex will actually cost more in fuel due to longer time at lower altitude. The savings come in reduced engine wear. $100k per 1 degree figure seems a lot, can you provide a reference? Considering the engines are leased.

3. QF operate the A330-300's that have an increased risk of tailstrike over the 200, Config 2 might just be a conservative bit of insurance for them. Also, runway surfaces in places like VVTS and WADD are quite rough, so getting off sooner with Config 2 may not be such a bad idea. Could there be a long term cost in gear maintenance? I don't know.

4. How many delays are due to the JQ self load control system. Put a price on it?

5. As I understand it, JQ fuel policy is a lot more conservative than QF with alternate requirements etc. How much is it costing to carry this "extra" fuel.

$10m per year. Sure this isn't just management spin? No doubt crew costs are cheaper for JQ than QF and there are savings in ancillary items like catering etc, but all this other stuff you think about operating efficiencies is pure swings and roundabouts, tit for tat. Don't fall for it.

Again, I would like to see both JQ and QF grow and prosper, so don't take this as anti-anything, except management spin that is.

captaintunedog777
6th Sep 2008, 04:13
Transition

Son I believe Q offer psychiatrichelp at no cost. Otherwise go somewhere private and scream I hate Jetstar a couple of times a day. It should do wonders for you and stop making us read ya crap. But then again if you have any balls go onto Qrewroom and vent there with ya name present for all of Q and Jetstar to read.:ugh:

Lookleft
6th Sep 2008, 06:09
TL- Your frustration is understandable but don't make it personal. No one is forcing you to do anything. For a lot of pilot's in Jetstar this is the first airline they have been in where this pace of promotion and expansion has been so rapid. It took me fifteen years to get a "rapid" command. If you are unhappy in Qantas then look at alternatives but if you are happy to stay don't worry about the things that you have no control of. At least you know that in Qantas eventually the career treadmill will get you a command-just longer than it would have taken if you had gone to Jetstar.

Wingspar
6th Sep 2008, 06:42
Good advice

Jetbest
6th Sep 2008, 08:03
Captain Marvel.
1. Using Config 2 rather than Config 1+F uses 12kg more fuel for the A330 during a full thrust take-off, the penalty increases with flex a bit. Where did you get the 600kg from?

2. Higher flex will actually cost more in fuel due to longer time at lower altitude. The savings come in reduced engine wear. $100k per 1 degree figure seems a lot, can you provide a reference? Considering the engines are leased.

3. QF operate the A330-300's that have an increased risk of tailstrike over the 200, Config 2 might just be a conservative bit of insurance for them. Also, runway surfaces in places like VVTS and WADD are quite rough, so getting off sooner with Config 2 may not be such a bad idea. Could there be a long term cost in gear maintenance? I don't know.

4. How many delays are due to the JQ self load control system. Put a price on it?

5. As I understand it, JQ fuel policy is a lot more conservative than QF with alternate requirements etc. How much is it costing to carry this "extra" fuel.

1.The operative word here is full thrust takeoff.The 12kg you mention is on the takeoff roll not once airborne.Flap 2 with NADP 1 uses up to 600kg more fuel.Try it in the SIM!!!
2.You are correct re engines being leased.Talk to QF engineering.My figures re flex tkoffs are correct in dollar savings re the lease agreement.It is the same reason we do not use derated climb figures as this wud cost us money,again the lease agreement!!!
3.Flap 2 does give better tailstrike protection.However as profesional pilots i think we shud all know how to avoid one.To get a tailstrike requires some serious mishandling.Again try it in the sim.Hardly a reason to burn more fuel.
4.The delays re our load system only occurr in OZ.QF cannot get the paperwork to us till all holds closed,there rule not ours!!!!This does no occur with other ground handlers in other countries.
5.The JQ fuel policy is conservative but a total rewrite is now under way.We do not require alternates into OZ.Most excess fuel is to cover ETOPS regs but do agree needs a rework.
P.S.A QF 767 had a unsceduled landing at WADD last week.The WIII bound aircraft decided that the WX in WIII was not good so diverted to take on fuel.TAF and MEtAR had 4000m vis[do not know QF policy].Due to your work rules the only reason the aircraft was not stranded was the fact that a check Capt was onboard and used 3 crew ops.We do not have such problems with CAO 48 exeption and work rules.I can see the bad press now for all of us if the aircraft was stranded.

My point here that by working smarter and better we will all have a future in the QF group and in aviation in general..The rubbish i read on Qroom re EBA 8,even though you will still have incredible conditions and pay[767 pilots on 747-400 pay] does not bode well for our future survival.Only time will tell.

What The
6th Sep 2008, 08:38
The rubbish i read on Qroom re EBA 8,even though you will still have incredible conditions and pay[767 pilots on 747-400 pay] does not bode well for our future survival

Could you be a bit more specific?

What do you deem rubbish?

TMAK
6th Sep 2008, 21:39
The delays re our load system only occurr in OZ.QF cannot get the paperwork to us till all holds closed,there rule not ours!!!!This does no occur with other ground handlers in other countries.
------------------

This is actually group policy, not just QF. Mandated by CASA after a serious of problems a couple of years back. Final LIR being presented overseas much earlier (before loading complete), by supposed organised ground handlers, can lead to a whole host of concerns much worse than a few delays! Depends on full circumstances of course and cannot be taken on its own.

The answer is pobably in a balance of the two scenarios and getting flights loaded on time, or a sensible load control option for JQ.

breakfastburrito
6th Sep 2008, 23:07
]P.S.A QF 767 had a unsceduled landing at WADD last week.The WIII bound aircraft decided that the WX in WIII was not good so diverted to take on fuel.TAF and MEtAR had 4000m vis[do not know QF policy].I call your bluff.
Was the WIII forecast endorsed TS for the arrival period, yes or no?

blow.n.gasket
6th Sep 2008, 23:21
Ah the Qantas fuel saving policy.
I thought only idiots and management wannabe's carried min op on short/medium haul flights!:}

Transition Layer
7th Sep 2008, 08:29
Why the hell was this moved to Jet Blast?

The thread is mainly about Fuel policy, aircraft performance, SOPs and pilot wages.

Mmmm...weird.

max autobrakes
13th Sep 2008, 06:21
Captaintunedogs reply to Transition:
Son I believe Q offer psychiatrichelp at no cost. Otherwise go somewhere private and scream I hate Jetstar a couple of times a day. It should do wonders for you and stop making us read ya crap. But then again if you have any balls go onto Qrewroom and vent there with ya name present for all of Q and Jetstar to read.:ugh:
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4376368) http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4376368&noquote=1)


Tunedog when will Qantas crew get access to read the JetStar chatroom??

I'm sure if they could there would be a lot less dribble posted there too!

AAA578
9th Oct 2008, 02:38
Although, i cant find a public announcement on this in the news, but if you look at Jeststar's route pages you will see, and i thought it relevent here because every one is slaging off JST.

Jetsrar are expanding their Perth operations to include a international servce with 3 return trips to Bali starting Monday 27th of October, and 3 return trips to Jakata, starting 28th October

Then in December, to Singapore from perth

Skystar will be handeling their groud operations at Perth

Oh how i know this, is because if it was not tru i wouldnt have a job starting on the 27th of october

Ken Borough
9th Oct 2008, 04:26
Jetsrar are expanding their Perth operations to include a international servce with 3 return trips to Bali starting Monday 27th of October, and 3 return trips to Jakata, starting 28th October

Jetstar expanding? Well, that's just a novel way of saying that Qantas Mainline is contracting. What a mob of spinning parasites this mob is!

AAA578
9th Oct 2008, 04:50
What??

That was my own words, what else are they doing if not expanding?

Ken Borough
13th Jan 2009, 23:36
Bringing this back to the top with the original comment

The press release said, "Jetstar this week began operating direct services from Darwin to Sydney and Ho Chi Minh City".

What has really happened is that due to incredibly poor loads, (on one flight 14 pax), J* has abandoned it's A330 service SYD-TSN, and will now operate an A321 SYD-DRW-TSN.

Is J*Int becoming the proverbial millstone?The answer would appear to be 'yes'. The numbers are now in with respect to traffic carried in the first two months of the Darwin hub option: September saw Jet* total Vietnam traffic fall 20.6% while October improved marginally with a fall of just 19.5%, both compared with the same months in 2007.

Is it any wonder that the punters are deserting them on this route in droves? As their scheduling is woeful with extended transits in Darwin in each direction, why would anyone but a masochist or scrooge want to fly in an A320 from Sydney or Melbourne when they have the option of a full service carrier offering non-stop flights from each main southern city with modern wide-bodied equipment?

Northbound from Sydney, a punter has to endure 2 hours in Darwin while coming home, he spends two and a half hours there. To help pass the time, are the punters required to collect their baggage and check-in again for the second sector.

If this is a sample of Jetstar's concept of a hub, then it won't last all that long. Are they scheduling to suit themselves or to serve the market? It's about time one of the smarter journos picked up on things like this and exposed Jetstar for what they are.:mad::mad::mad:

Mods: isn't the appropriate forum for this thread D&G Reporting Points?

blow.n.gasket
14th Jan 2009, 08:27
Wouldn't have anything to do with the NT Gov $5 million business grant would it?
What was it 3 aircraft or something to be based in Darwin?
JetStar wouldn't be doing a fudge here would they?:eek: