DHL UK changes [Archive]

birdstrike

23rd Dec 2001, 20:25

Yarpy

The current roster on the Air Contractors A300 is 8 on 6 off, starting on either a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. The 8 days must include a 'legal rest day' which for the purpose of this roster only is a minimum of 24 hours off (and is not the same as a day off which must include 2 local nights). The duty week starts at 0001 on Monday morning. Under IAA regs we can do 12 duty hours on a 3 - sector night, or 11hrs30mins on a 4 - sector night. The maximum allowed on any 8 day period is 65 rostered hours. The company can ask you to operate into a 9th day but this happens only rarely (twice in the last year for me) and is usually used to cope with last minute changes imposed by DHL.
The roster works very well despite a few initial misgivings and the opposition of a few within ACL.
The 727 work pattern is considerably worse, offers no roster stability, and is a good reason why we should ALL try ensure that the 8 and 6 continues. Unfortunately there is a train of thought within ACL that rather than try to improve conditions for everyone, it would be easier to put everyone on a 727-type roster i.e. equal misery for all. Not very enlightened thinking I fear!
Hope this os of use to you.

millionAIR

23rd Dec 2001, 20:52

Neil i think you should go too flightwatch in Brusells and read the bulletons on the noticeboard.Yes ACL have the postal contract in France but all the airbus's that belong to E.A.T that ACL operate will be going back to Belgium by the end of 2002.

neil armstrong

23rd Dec 2001, 22:33

Yes Millair ,i just did that.
Your right, but i think some of the A300 might go to DHL Air UK.
Lets see what the next notice will say.

Neil

AIRHEAD2B

26th Dec 2001, 21:26

ANY OF YOU UK GUYS HERE ANY NEWS ABOUT DHL (US) AIRWAYS GETTING SOME OF YOUR 727 OR BUYING ABX?

Second Segment

27th Dec 2001, 15:04

Sorry, I am not sure I have grasped the thread of this posting. Is DHL Air (UK) to be folded into the ACL Aoc, and the aircraft operated on the Irish reg, because I can't see how they can operate on a UK Aoc and then use Irish FTL.
Regards to all.

S.S.

rockon tommy

27th Dec 2001, 15:27

Reading this thread,it suggests that Safair/Aircontractors are manageing an operation for DHL/Uk at EMA,but surely the crews would need
a 'proper'CAA uk Licence before they could transfer themself to the G-Reg.Do they have these licences or is it going to be new recruitment.

alapt

28th Dec 2001, 03:51

Merry X-mas to all. If this is an Irish operation, what are the requirements concerning licenses? Would they give validations for one year?
Good luck to all, Regards

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: alapt ]

Georgeablelovehowindia

30th Dec 2001, 15:50

OK, it's time for a reality check.
ONE: DHL Air is fully owned by DHL. DHL Air has a UK Air Ops Certificate with all the implications of UK FTL, etc. Twenty three 757s are planned to be operated, all on the DHL Air fleet, on the UK register. Current plans envisage six in operation by end March 2002. The first (CATIII and MNPS approved) 757 renders good service. The second is in the paint shop at Southend, having been delivered there from TLV two weeks ago. All management and technical positions within DHL Air are currently filled. However, more will become available as the airline expands. All, repeat ALL, pilot applicants will be required to have the appropriate UK CAA/JAA licences and will be required to undertake and pass the selection procedure. As always, a 757 type rating would be advantageous.
TWO: SAFAIR, the parent company of ACL is involved in a deal which will lead to the transfer of the A300s to EAT in Brussels. Crews currently on the A300 will have the opportunity to transfer to EAT, in Brussels, on EAT terms and conditions.
THREE: The 727 fleet will gradually be phased out. This will leave ACL operating the Aeropostal contract with five or less aircraft.
FOUR: Mr. Hugh Flynn is replacing Mr. Trevor Jones as Managing Director of DHL Air. Mr. Jones is returning to his position within DHL.
FIVE: That's it. Do we all get the picture now?

B727

31st Dec 2001, 04:46

& SIX : ACL/Safair are to BUY the complete package of EAT's A300's & the 75's & lease them back to DHL-BRU / DHL-UK. Only 2 x 72's will be kept from ACL's 72 fleet & at present ACL owen 2 x A300's DHL & SAF - they will also be leased to DHL. As for the rest Aero Postal will be operated by their own a/c, completely managed by ACL. 2 x C130's are heading for the 'EI' reg the rest, heavens knows (wait for the next announcement). & Finally:
Seven: Most of ACL's UK Management which are based in 'EI' are heading to EMA to run ACL-UK (sorry) DHL-UK,
Who's gonna add Eight ?

HUDINIMC

2nd Jan 2002, 15:01

Eight.
Suggest to the "tourists" heading to EMA from "EI" that they should have with them a return ticket.

RampTramp

2nd Jan 2002, 20:03

GALHI has it about right. The A300s currently owned by EAT will transfer to the OO reg. & the 2 ACL owned units will be dry leased to EAT. The Aeropostal contract will be a dry lease/management contract on Aeropostal owned aircraft. The B727s will be phased out of the DHL network but some (2?) will remain & be operated ad hoc on the EI reg. & the ACL AOC will remain. DHL Air will remain a G- reg. operator and, as far as I know, will not operate either B727s or A300s. There is some confusion as to exactly what where & how regarding ACL & DHL Air, not helped by conflicting memos issued by each side, however the obvious rationalisation of the control & management of the DHL fleet can only increase the effectiveness & guarantee jobs for the ACL guys.

I'm sure that those higher up the food chain know exactly what's happening & we minions will find out in due time. It will be an interesting year but it has in my humble opinion, started on the right note.

myrddin

8th Jan 2002, 20:16

Assumptions:
1) ACL is history and Key managers are bailing out
2) A300 future is limited and the key managers know this
3) Nepotism will be the criteria for transfer of the few from ACL to EMA
4) We're all doomed I tell ya!

RampTramp

8th Jan 2002, 21:02

Myrddin,

I do hope that was tounge in cheek, either that or you have a selective reading problem. The deal ensures that ACL retains it's AOC in Ireland and continues to operate, there are jobs available & nobody looses out. Keep the faith!

ClearReverse

8th Jan 2002, 23:43

This is all very interesting, but you mention some Lockheed L382's how are they going to be operated on a british AOC when there none on the register and no one with CAA type rates <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

myrddin

9th Jan 2002, 01:17

Ramp....The question we need to ask ourselves is, is the IAOC of any use? Look at the facts carefully, the 727's are soon to accumulate sand in the desert and the A300's are worth more than cans than they are as aircraft. Most of the comments on this forum simply don't add up..serendipity springs to mind as does the feathering of nests for some. Post christmas is the tradional time for management to hand out dissappointments. I'm preparing, are you? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Ivan aromer

9th Jan 2002, 02:03

Many years ago I was given a piece of advice by my Navigator (Ex WW2 Wellingtons)
"Co. Be a good bar listener not a good bar talker"
I pass this on only to stop this pure BE

RampTramp

10th Jan 2002, 14:40

myrddin, OK, I'll rise to the bait! My understanding is that not all the B727s will accumulate dust as soon as originally planned & 1 or 2 will remain on the IAOC for ad hoc work. Add the Hercs & the management contract for the Aeropostal A300s & I reckon the IAOC will be reasonably well used. As for your comments regarding the A300s, I guess you're a Boeing fan 'cos the Busses will soldier on with the likes of DHL for quite a few years yet.

The more I look at it, the more it seems that the management of both companies are trying their best to ensure a viable future for everybody involved. Makes a change these days! Then again, I'm a cynical optimist(?).

myrddin

11th Jan 2002, 01:12

Ramp, there's no need to rise to any bait, there's nothing fishy about my concerns. Can you tell which part of the planet are B727 able to fly with any commercial viability and where we ourselves would want to be with them? Also what makes you think that the volume that the A300 has on offer is desirable to DHL given its current ratio of wide body to narrow body and its future plans to acquire 34 narrow body aircraft with an option on another 10? Is an ageing wide bodied aircraft with an over populated flight deck with the ability to carry 30 tonnes short haul but not medium haul, really going to fit in with DHL's near term plans? I wonder! I don't wish to sound like the harbinger of gloom, should I/we be looking else where? Will this posting be the catylst that sparks a deluge of facts. Your not old you were just born too early, so given your extra experience; whats going on? Who d'ya Know?

Ivan aromer

11th Jan 2002, 02:28

I suppose it all depends on your opinion, which to me seems a little blinkered. The A300 offers 45 tonnes short haul and Channel used there aircraft on the route from Germany to Sharjah.Is that no medium enough?

myrddin

11th Jan 2002, 02:35

Ivan....are you talking about the same type of A300? By the way it's their not there

Sir_Fly-a-Lot

11th Jan 2002, 04:45

Ivan is right though, the Airbus A300B4 does have the range to fly from Northern Europe to the Middle East with a full payload (45000KG).Tel Aviv can be easily reached, and even Dubai is possible, but not always ! You need some help from mother nature, and you need to have an enroute alternate, since you will most definetely be low on fuel once you get there.

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Sir_Fly-a-Lot ]

RampTramp

11th Jan 2002, 13:24

myrddin, it looks like you've got part of the answer already from Ivan & SFAL. The A300B4 will uplift 45 tons on the short-medium routes with plenty of volume. It's ideal for the main hub to hub & other high volume routes & DHL, among others, have no plans to replace them in the short to medium term, there's at least 5 - 8 more years in them yet. There is no viable replacement available in the weight/price range right now & if they're that bad, why would UPS order 60 new build -600s & FedEx is buying up A300s & A310s for conversion? OK, so the B4 is old but the ecomomics of the operation have to be weighed against the low purchase price right now bringing the hourly cost of operation, especially the ton/kilometer rate down to acceptable levels. As a pure cargo aircraft they do leave something to be desired but it's 'horses for courses' & right now the A300-B4 is the right steed for the integrators.

The 34 B757s will replace the B727s on night operations as it is night bans that are killing the 72 in integrator service. The whole idea is to leave as late as possible, hub during the night & arrive back at destination as early as possible, thus putting them in the middle of the most sensitive period. There are, however, still airports in Europe that will accept them during the day which will allow ad hoc operations plus the rest of the world, Africa, Middle East, Far East & even the USA, which are nowhere near as restrictive. The 72 is not dead yet just, like me, getting old & can't stand the late nights anymore.

To get back to the main point of the thread, the changes that are taking place have got to be preferable to any of the alternatives. I'm not pretending to be that far up the food chain that I have all the answers but I've got enough 'gen' to make a reasoned guess at what's going on & feel that, with all the gloom & doom thats being spread in other parts of these forums, this still looks like a light at the end of the tunnel & it ain't the train coming the other way! That's still only my considered opinion, however. What about the rest of you guys???

(edited for bad spelling!)

[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: RampTramp ]

Flip Flop Flyer

11th Jan 2002, 13:40

DHL regularly operated the A300 on routes from BRU to LOS and BAH; to BAH with the odd fuel stop in LCA but capable of non-stop with reduced payload.
Although the max payload on the A300 is above 40 tons, DHL rarely utilies this as they aircraft are full by volume around 35 tons.

The A300 was brought in as the replacement for the long diesel 8s, and offered more payload, much more volume and considerable operational savings. Yes it's a 3 crew kite, but the alternative would have been the A300-600, which are much more expensive and not readily available second hand in the sme numbers as the B4-200. DHL does not buy new. In short, the A300s offered DHL the only viable growth potential, and continues to provide excellent service.

The B757SF and A300 uses the same ULD types and therefore compatibility from a cargo point of view is not a problem. Obviously the 757s won't accept the widebody lowerdeck ULDs. And as with the A300 DHL will normally not be utilising the full 28 tons capability of the B757SF, but will top out on volume around 23 tons.

So Myrr, we're happy with both the A300 and B757.

flying headbutt

11th Jan 2002, 14:35

EAT are running a course for three A300 crews at the moment and for another three crews next month (taken from EAT noticeboard). Are these crews gonna operate the ACL A300s when they come across and if so what happens to the ACL guys?

Sir_Fly-a-Lot

11th Jan 2002, 15:17

I was told yesterday that ACL is taking on two more Shreiner A300 crews on a two year contract. So it looks like they won't be converting any 727 crews soon. Thus the 727's will we around for quite some time. Could be wrong though...

Chris cargo

12th Jan 2002, 14:13

It seems to me the B727 ACL guys are either being saved for 757 conversion or they are down the road. What about the B727 F/Es? They do not seem to fit in anywhere in the new plan. All seems good news for management bad news for crew. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

rockon tommy

12th Jan 2002, 18:12

I have been reading the comments by Ramp Tramp and Chris cargo. On this subject surely if the A300 of EAT are returned from ACL,and the two A300 you say are owned by ACL are to be dry leased, and the Air Postal contract of ACL is dry lease and ACL are getting shot of say 4 B727. You dont need an A in maths to see that ACL is going to have surplus of pilots and flight engineers.Whats ACL like when it comes to spending money retraining crews?

myrddin

12th Jan 2002, 19:08

At last the penny drops. You guys, especially Ramp tramp have been clutching at straws. Not only are we surplus to requirements but will not be transfered to DHL Air because we are not type rated. Furthermore I overheard in BRU the other night that DHL are downsizing the Euro network the first casualties of which will be the A300's. Now does it all fit. We've been duped by Hugh Flynn. He's alright we're all screwed. I'm outta here

millionAIR

12th Jan 2002, 19:41

I heard that the ACL crews from the A300's will be offered the chance to go across to E.A.T on a belgian contract. <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

neil armstrong

12th Jan 2002, 22:51

Good to see that everybody is so positive .
In my opinion it will all work out in the long run(but that who am I).

Neil

myrddin

12th Jan 2002, 23:26

One other thing I've noticed. Can Hugh Flynn become an accountable manager of DHL Air. I confess that my knowledge of the regulations here is not too good, can somebody help me out here? As I understand it, non EU nationals are precluded from becoming post holders in a UK registered airline. If the CAA reject him as a post holder he hasn't much of a leg to stand on. Am I a right here? Can someone clarify this please

Chris cargo

13th Jan 2002, 11:34

Millair
ACL A300 crews to work for EAT. Sounds great until the Belgium goverment insist that EAT give the jobs to all the Sabena crews out of work.Things are not looking good.
Neil
Full marks for looking on the bright side, but if I were you get in your spacecraft and go back to planet Zog.!
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

rockon tommy

13th Jan 2002, 14:12

Butting in again, I agree with Chris Cargo EAT are taking ex Sabena crews and retraining 727 crews, if you add the A300 crews from ACL it looks like a surplus.Not sure who going to take the long walk.

The Reds

13th Jan 2002, 15:42

There are sure some Big egos around look what happened to Sabena.I don't think DHL are that naive. History will tell, another thing Who will actually own the aircraft?

Banzai Chap

14th Jan 2002, 13:50

I M Sparticus

ACL 727 Pilots will be offered jobs at DHL Air once they pass the selection criteria, sim assessment etc. This has been made known to DHL Air and is a valid attempt to provide jobs to ACL Pilots by DHL

Not sure about ACL A300 crews being offered job at DHL Air if they are also offered an EAT job. On the lines of previous threads - possibility of ACL A300 Pilot to DHL Air, thus releasing a A300 job to a Belgian?.
Bit expensive though..
DHL Air would welcome any ACL Crews as they are freight minded and won't foxtrot oscar when any up turn in the pax market arrives. The ACL A300 crews might prefer EAT anyway given their days off patterns.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

sapco2

14th Jan 2002, 14:08

As an outsider, these were my thoughts exactly, it makes sound economic sense and if true - good on yer DHL!

RampTramp

14th Jan 2002, 17:16

I would just ask the knockers to consider the alternatives! DHL could bring all the owned A300's onto the Belgian register & just terminate the contract with ACL once the 72s die in the night network. The aircraft have been operated on a contract basis so DHL have no obligation to provide alternative employment for any of the staff. It still seems to me that ACL & DHL are working together to minimise any job losses & rationalise the whole operation. If you guys want to take the negative approach, thats your perogative and you don't have to come to the party.

I M Spartacus - you have a point but the regulations are a bit 'grey'. There are precedents already, BA - Aussie CEO, easyJet (Greek) & Go (Yank) so I feel that DHL & ACL would not have made the announcement without being reasonably certain that the blessing with holy water is coming.

And before it starts, it's been obvious from my posts that I do work for one of the parties but not far enough up the food chain to to influence decisions & I'll be the first to critisize if I think 'Management' have got it wrong. I have also, in the past, lost my job & spent time with an uncertain future so don't think I'm unsympathetic.

Time will tell & I'm sure that opinions will still be polarised even after the dust has settled. Over to you guys again.

millionAIR

14th Jan 2002, 23:32

DHL and ACL are and will remain very close but watch this space after the A300's go back over too E.A.T ACL will venture out and buy bigger aircraft ie DC-10 or 747's so maybe no job losses after-all.

myrddin

14th Jan 2002, 23:52

Planet Zog calling Earth .....is there intelligent life out there. Come on chaps reality is passing you by. The 727 is history and sudenly our management is going to replace them with desert loads of wide bodies, yeah right. So back here on planet earth where do the drivers fit in. Well according to some, jobs are secure at DHL Air. Pause for thought here Banzai, there's more 757/767 pilots floating around than there is plancton in the Irish sea, so why would DHL Air want to shell out the hard earned for the conversion eh? When we wake up, which beach will we find ourselves washed up on. Fortunately I've booked my passage for fairer seas. ...Gosh I've gone all nautical.

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: I.M. Spartacus ]

rockon tommy

15th Jan 2002, 03:18

Mill Air, Sorry but you must be dreaming if you think ACL are going to turn up with B747 or DC10s.Anyway if they did they would use ready rated crews to operate them, the same as I believe they are doing on the french postal contract.....and thats A300s!!!

rockon tommy

15th Jan 2002, 03:28

On the subject of DHL Uk, I expect the selection criteria to be, X-thousand hours, on jets with 100 or more pax, and the G reg on the tail.

millionAIR

15th Jan 2002, 04:10

Rockon Tommy, ACL plan to use three of their own A300's for the postal contract and the word on the grape vine is ACL will buy larger aircraft?? <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Banzai Chap

15th Jan 2002, 12:50

I M Spart

If ACL make their drivers redundant how much would it cost them vv a conversion?. Do any of their Pilots have length of service carried over from Hunting?. How many do you think would come to Air given the choice?

Yes there are plenty of 757 drivers out there, who's to say they are the right folk anyway, most of them wouldn't have applied until after the tragic 11th of Sept and there's been plenty of previous comments about the "package".

If DHL want to be loyal to a good bunch of Pilots then good on them. Either way there are employment
issues here as previously mentioned. If Air are told to look at applicants from ACL favourably then i'd support that view. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

RampTramp

15th Jan 2002, 14:26

Sick, I dunno where you're coming from if you think DHL have any obligations to ACL beyond the legal ones in the contracts that, as far as I am aware, gives a 90 day termination clause on the use of the aircraft. I don't know the details of the Management contract for the EAT owned A300's but I would guess that they also have a similar 'get out' clause.

Where you get the idea that there is any legal obligation to the ACL employees I have no idea although I will readily admit that my knowledge of Irish, or even EU, law is far from complete.

mikado

15th Jan 2002, 16:28

I am a firm believer in the advice from Corporal Jones - "Don't Panic".

DHL Air had already taken non-type rated pilots although it is true that 757 rated guys and gals are plentiful post 11/9 and the current hirings appear all to be type rated.

If the 727s are to be phased out by the end of 2002 and their work taken on by 757s there should be opportunities for the 727 guys from Air Contractors. The DHL order for 757s ex-BA puts 11 in Brussels with EAT and 23 at EMA with DHL Air. Only about half of those aircraft will be in service by the end of 2002 so there will be job opportunities right through 2003 to match further deliveries which should suit the timings for ACL pilots who remain on the 727 to the end of this year. By the end of this year, who knows what the job market will be or how many 757 rated pilots will return to passenger work when the charter companies realise they have cut back too much.

Hopefully, the management of all the 'interested' parties will be putting their heads together soon and should be able to give out some more information on their plans. I am sure that DHL do not want a disgruntled, unco-operative set of crews at ACL as we move towards the end of the year. It's in everybody's interest to keep the workforce informed and happy and the current information vacuum and contradictory notices are not helping.

This particular vacuum is filling with rumour and speculation. It is less than a month since the changes were announced, so a little more patience is probably in order.

The question of Flight Engineers' futures must be exercising their minds.

I am a new boy to freight, working for DHL Air at EMA. The ACL crews I have met are great guys and very professional in their operation. In effect, we work together now. I hope we can all work together in the future.

myrddin

16th Jan 2002, 01:11

So there you have it. Mikado has spoken and we should all be assured. Or should we? Consider Mikado the opera, allow me to summarise the plot.

A year before the action of this opera begins, Nanki-Poo, son of the Mikado of Japan, fled his father's imperial court to escape marriage with Katisha, an elderly lady. Disguised as a traveling musician, he met and fell in love with Yum-Yum, the young ward of Ko-Ko, a cheap tailor in the town of Titipu. Yum-Yum, however, was already betrothed to her guardian, and Nanki-Poo left Titipu in despair.

So the Mikado is a tale of those who were desparate to mislead in order to satisfy their own selfish desires and everybody ends up miserable. So no change there then (Have I got news for you)......

STAGE COACH DRIVER

16th Jan 2002, 01:58

I don't think EAT are really interested in Brits working for them.If you look on DHL.be web site under jobs you will find an EAT advert for A300 crews it's in flemish.Have you seen it anywhere else in English ?

neil armstrong

16th Jan 2002, 02:39

Yes
all there jobs are advertised in Flemish and English in the crewroom in BRU but in not sure or this is only for internal applications.

Neil

myrddin

17th Jan 2002, 00:30

Mr Sick,
What obligations do DHL have towards ACL employees. Please advise.

The Reds

17th Jan 2002, 03:07

DHL, Probably has the same obligation to EAT as ACL employees, It's the timescale that matters. DHLAir uk though as in "DHL" probably exempt.

myrddin

19th Jan 2002, 02:07

Rumours abound and this thread has gone quite. So Whats happening? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

happy-cappy

19th Jan 2002, 20:20

Thats because we are all very very happy..Spartacus.

But alas we will be happier when our "bonus" cheques arrive! Just like our xmas bonus when we had some alloances deducted from our expenses because we didnt apply the rules.

But we will have the last laufgh when we abide by the rules!
No worked days off
No extension or reduction of rest
No reroutes
No carrying the a/c via the mel
no and i could go on but ive a pain in my rear exit with all this stuff.

Happy Drinking.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: happy-cappy ]

myrddin

19th Jan 2002, 21:04

I was looking for some sober reflection!So what the ULD is going on?
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

happy-cappy

19th Jan 2002, 21:24

Im not really sure Spartacus, but im not looking forward to a lot of change because of my settled state.

Depends on what seat you sit in and on what fleet i suppose.

Im left seat and work ex ema you?

But as i love my family, im quite happy.

Every now and again the company tears me reluctlantly away from my family and send me home to my wife!!!

Keep taking the Pills!!

Cheers Spartacus, well meet soon and fix the wrongs!(probably in ze franklin)

happy-cappy

19th Jan 2002, 21:42

In fact guys, realing thinking about the changes to be, and as its really out of our control, theres no point worrying about it.

Personnally i dont think we have anything to worry about jobwise (except the f/e), which i hope is being addressed within the company.

The only reservation i have is that were not being told things in order keep us here until its too late! but i have to trust in what im being told??????

I hope!

flying headbutt

19th Jan 2002, 22:19

or...... what do you say to an ACL pilot in uniform?

_Big Mac & Fries please

HUDINIMC

20th Jan 2002, 12:10

Rumour has it that the UK CAA has rejected Hugh Flynn, following a meeting sometime last week, as MD and Accountable Manager for DHL Air.
Futher rumours overheard in the crew room suggested this had nothing to do with nationality and implied it was more to do with his qualifications or experience.
If this is true,with EAT apparently training A300 crews and an abundance of B757 crews standing around where does this leave the plan now with regard to the expectations within ACL?