B1900 missing in the congo?

[reinbobber]

any news on this one?

[Lajka]

Congo or DRC? We have 2 a/c in DRC, if anyone has any news, please post!

[BUSHJEPPY]

AirServ, CEMAIR aircraft ? Sorry my french:

RDC: un avion porté disparu
Un avion d'une compagnie internationale affrétant des vols humanitaires, qui était attendu lundi soir à Bukavu, dans l'est de la RDC, est porté disparu, a-t-on appris de sources onusiennes. L'appareil avait décollé de Kinshasa.

On ignorait dans l'immédiat combien de personnes se trouvaient à bord de l'avion. L'appareil est d'une capacité de transport de 19 passagers.

Certains des passagers embarqués seraient des membres des Nations unies en République démocratique du Congo (RDC). La mission de l'ONU en RDC (Monuc) compte 19 000 personnes, et beaucoup d'agences des Nations unies sont également présentes.

Les accidents d'avion sont fréquents en RDC. Le 15 avril 2008, un DC9 de la compagnie privée congolaise Hewa Bora s'était écrasé sur Goma (est), faisant au moins 47 morts et plus d'une centaine de blessés.

(ats / 02 septembre 2008 05:20)

[BUSHJEPPY]

KINSHASA (Reuters) - A humanitarian plane went missing during a storm in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo on Monday, U.N. humanitarian coordinator OCHA said.

"We have a missing plane. We don't know if it's landed or crashed," Christophe Illemassene, spokesman in Congo for the U.N. Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) told Reuters.

"We don't have the manifest so we don't really know how many people were on board," he said.

The plane was on its way from the city of Kisangani to the town of Bukavu, on Congo's eastern border with Rwanda, when it lost contact with ground control.

"The last contact that we had was as they were approaching Bukavu ... Apparently the weather was pretty nasty in Bukavu," Illemassene said.


He said the 19-seat Beechcraft was operated by Air Serv International, a not-for-profit organization which provides air transport services to humanitarian operations around the world.

"We know it didn't land at any other airport in the area," he said. "There is not really much we can do right now. There will be a search at dawn."

Air Serv is one of several entities and private contractors which service Congo's large community of humanitarian workers.

Most humanitarian organizations operating in the country restrict travel by their personnel on commercial flights in Congo due to local airlines' abysmal safety record and frequent crashes.

[Safetyman]

Apparently the wreckage was just found close to Bukavu..

[pointer41]

Let us still hope for the best!!

[Propellerpilot]

Confirmed: No survivors. :sad: R.I.P. ZS-OLD

[LittleMo]

Any news on who the crew was? Take it they were SA guys or gals...:(

[amishpilot]

I'd also be interested to know who the crew were, worked for ASI for a few years in DRC and still know a lot of people there...

[Contract Dog]

Sad news

Condolences to all involved.

Dog

[south coast]

Indeed a sad loss for all those and their families.

However, having had flown in that part of the world for a few years and even after leaving that kind of flying behind, I still am interested to read the Africa Forum, I find it alarming the number of crashes that occur in the DRC, and more so by the number of ZS registered planes involved, which are well maintained and crewed by well trained pilots.

Without wanting to hi-jack this topic, perhaps it would be better to start a new thread, but I would like to pose the question.

Is the pressure that bad on crews from their operators to get into airfields with limited approaches/approach aids and in marginal weather, and especially considering the UN and all these organisations have 'unlimited' funds and could happily pay for another flight the following day.

I am baffled that anyone would put their life on the line going into such places in bad weather.

[johnnybgoode]

My condolences go out to the families of all those aboard the flight. It is not the first time ZS a/c have gone down in these hills. :(

[Gooneybird]

Condolences to families of all on board.

Let's wait for more details before second guessing the decisions made by the pilots preceding this tragedy.

[south coast]

It was not second guessing anyone's decision, it was just a question regarding if there is pressure to get into places.

Facts are facts, several planes have crashed in this part of the DRC which as you know is very mountainous with limited nad aids and where the weather can be terrible.

Also, there never seems to be any accident reports published, or none that ever make their way onto here after a plane crashes in the DRC, so to say, lets wait for the facts is like saying 'I worked really hard to get my DRC ATPL'.

[Goffel]

Bad one this.

Apparently it was CFIT.......Gear was apparently down and hit terrain on the descent.(8 nm's from touchdown).

Captain had approx 1000 hrs on 1900's and co-pilot had experience on 1900's.

For them both, it was their 3 tour for Airserve in the same area.

Weather was bad.

RIP both of you, your passion for flying and smiling faces will be remembered.

(Sorry, cannot post names for obvious reasons).
Goffel.

[dynamite dean]

Terrible stuff, fly safely everyone.

[MungoP]

Is the pressure that bad on crews from their operators to get into airfields with limited approaches/approach aids and in marginal weather, and especially considering the UN and all these organisations have 'unlimited' funds and could happily pay for another flight the following day.

If you've flown there then you know that the Wx systems there can be huge... if you were determined never to encounter one you'd never get airborne. I once took off from a dirt strip to fly a 35 min leg to another dirt strip and got totally cut off (B200) by a system that must have covered around 6000 sq miles... we were looking seriously at 'landing' on a mud-spit on the Ubenge river when a small gap allowed us to squeeze through to a hairy landing with just 12 min fuel remaining after a 2hr:30min flight !

Goffel... Would appreciate a pm regarding the crew... The guy with me in the cockpit that day is still flying with Airserv on the 1900 and as yet I've not had a response to an e-mail... many thanks.

[curiousgeorge]

Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of the passengers and crew, may you find strength to endure through this extremly difficult time.

[Safetyman]

Of course, have a look who the aircraft belongs to and look who lurks there in the background.. (Lots of blood on his hands already)

[warloc67]

Safetyman,

Same thought crossed my mind, amazing how the devil looks after his own. Wonder how he could get in with an outfit like Air Serv with his reputation?

Condolences to the families.

[Ladyloo]

Knew the co-pilot very well..he was an amazing friend and an excellent pilot! He will be sorely missed by all..love and miss you my friend! May you forever fly with the angels..

[SafeTBee]

RIP to all, especially to my dear friend, the co-pilot on board. He was an honest and kind soul and a fantastic hands on pilot. You will be sorely missed by all who's lives you touched. My condolences and prayers go out to your family and the families of all others on board.:sad:

[maxrated]

Sad news indeed, condolences to all.
I flew that same aerie all over west africa in the Rossair days, could anyone PM with names of the crew.

[south coast]

So long as the families have been informed first, I dont see why the names cannot be posted so we can all know if it is someone we know.

[I.R.PIRATE]

SA pilot killed in DRC crash
02/09/2008 14:25 - (SA)


Kinshasa - The pilot of a plane that crashed during a storm in the Democratic Republic of Congo on Monday was a South African man, a family member has confirmed.

The Beechcraft carrying 17 passengers and crew crashed into a ridge in the eastern part of the country. The US based group that operated the route told AP that there appeared to be no survivors.

Rudi Knoetze, the 24-year-old pilot, was born in Port Elizabeth but was living in Johannesburg, the family member, who requested anonymity, told News24 on Tuesday.

"His parents are distraught. Their lives revolved around him," the family member said.

She pointed out that a radio report about the accident stating that Knoetze's mother was on holiday in PE was incorrect. "His grandparents live in PE and will be flying to Johannesburg tonight to support his parents in this difficult time."

"His father was always so proud of him," she said.

Bad weather

The plane went missing in bad weather late on Monday, a spokesperson for the UN office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs told AP.

The plane was on its way from the city of Kisangani to the town of Bukavu, on the DRC's eastern border with Rwanda, when it lost contact with ground control.

Rescuers spotted the wreckage of the Beechcraft aircraft on Tuesday about 15km northwest of the town of Bukavu, on the border with Rwanda.

Air Serv International, a Warrenton, Virginia-based group, runs the twice-weekly aid delivery flight between Kisangani and Bukavu.

"Search and rescue efforts were initiated early this morning and visual confirmation of the downed aircraft was made," a company statement said.

The location was on steep ridge, it said.

South African commercial company

Air Serv International describes itself as a not-for-profit aviation organisation that supports humanitarian programmes worldwide.

No Air Serv personnel were involved in the crash, group spokesperson Suzanne Musgrave told AP by telephone from Warrenton.

She said the plane was being flown by a South African commercial company, Cem Air.

A senior official with the South African company confirmed that the plane used for the flight was owned by Cem Air, and that two of its crew were flying the aircraft.

"I'm in contact with the South African Air Force base there, and they haven't given me any information about any survivors," Cem Air's chief pilot MJ Booysen said.

"The airplane at this point is missing, but we are on standby for further information," he said. - News24-AP

[Nickerbal]

Condolences to all

Rudi you were a very good guy & hard worker; take care all

[south coast]

Thanks I.R.Pirate

[alpha-b]

I knew Rudi very well while i was still doing my comm in FAGC he was already instructing at Babcock,he was a very good guy very friendly and we really got along,it is a very sad moment.Rudi you'll be dearly missed and remembered.May his soul and the rest of the casualties rest in peace

[maxrated]

Rudi you were always a pleasure to fly with, as well as being an officer and gentleman. Fly high and fast !

Any news on who the skipper was ?

[Propellerpilot]

The skippers family has not been informed as of yet - so it should not be published here until this has been done. Please respect this.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

I am so sad to hear about this accident - my thoughts, heartache and condolences are with the family and friends of both pilots and everyone else who is affected by this tragedy. RIP guys, you will be sorely missed.

[V1... Ooops]

Very sorry to hear about this, condolences to the families of the crew and passengers.

Was that the aircraft that AirServ sold the seats on, Cemair leased in and crewed, and Star Air Cargo provided the AOC for?

[Heli-Jet]

What is the grid Mora over Bukavu.
What approach were they using into Bukavu???

[dwade]

yes that is the A/C

[Ajax 28]

my thoughts as well heli-jet..

If it was their 3rd tour in the area then they must have know/seen that mountain range before... Last time i checked, there were no approaches for Bukava, only visual one's or self made GPS letdows (practiced alot in VMC)..

If i remember correctly, the mountains were about 8000-9000ft there..

[Solid Rust Twotter]

13000' Grid MORA as I recall.

[CALCULATOR]

Mr M v M-N you again have blood on your hands!
Get out of aviation and STAY out.
Cemair have had about 5 serious incidents in the past year or 2.
No wonder CAA would not allow you AOC.

Coming from a Ex Cemair crew member, no Jepp charts provided, no EN-Route maps given- you had to make do with what you could.

Its time this person in charge gets OUT. :*

[johnnybgoode]

It is so sad to see DRC claim yet another ZS aircraft. Those Rwenzori mountains are no joke. I lost a good friend a little over two years ago who also had a CFIT just north of Goma and have never seen the final report on that accident. Do the CAA or local authorities ever do investigations into these accidents, or will they forever be shrouded in mystery?
JBG

[rags]

Bukavu in the nastiest places in the DRC to operate to and from. Nasty mountains rings the western side, the side this flight approached from. (The last of the high mountains of the rift valley) Scared the hell out of me on a couple of occasions and if you not careful the can bite. In bad weather a CFIT in that area is a good possibility. There is no approach into Bukavu and no beacons.

RIP and condolences to all family members and friends

Lets keep this treat factual please and not speculate on whats right or wrong.

[Ajax 28]

johhnybgoode, was your friend in the c208 that crashed into the mountain?

[Propellerpilot]

Those of you blaming the person running the company in Joburg are doing so unjustly and it is totally disappropriate at this time. He might of had his share in the past, however this does not automatically mean anything to what happened now - he has absolutly no control for an aeroplane flying into terrain - he did not force them to fly and he trusts crew to make their own deceisions as that is what they are getting paid for.

This crew was by no means incompetant, especially the skipper would take no cr:mad:p from anyone - not even his boss. He was respected greatly by everyone in the company and was most probably the most senior captain of all.

Something terrible has happened here, nobody knows why or what had happened so stop writing such far fetched bullsh:mad: This did not happen because the crew did not have Jeppcharts etc. or was not equipped with essentials or experience. Until we do not know what or who is to blame, we should not accuse anyone in public until proven guilty.

[Gooneybird]

Propellerpilot The skippers family has not been informed as of yet - so it should not be published here until this has been done. Please respect this.

I'm sure this will be respected.

The skipper was a friend of mine and I was only asking about him the other day. Rest well in heaven.

[popobawa]

Unfortunately some operators send crews with little or no experience of flying in DRC.
The eastern part of the DRC is a very tricky to fly ,no only because of terrain but nasty weather and poor ATC.

I personaly think that sending inexperienced pilots there is just no the right thing to do.
Many experience pilots flying in DRC still respect the weather and the terrain .

If you are a young pilot with little experience Congo is NOT the place where you wan't to built experience; my personal point of view of course.

fly safe

[Gooneybird]

The skipper was neither young nor inexperienced and whilst agreeing with the gist of your post in general it's not relevant here.

I agree with Propellerpilot. No one knows what happened and frankly we may never really know. No point slinging mud. When I say slinging mud I'm refering to posts regarding the operator, not the previous post.

[south coast]

Rags said, 'In bad weather a CFIT in that area is a good possibility. There is no approach into Bukavu and no beacons.'

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, CFIT is only a 'good' (I think you mean high) possibility because one decides to go below the MSA, in the abscense of any nav aids or approaches, when the weather is LESS than VMC, and unfortunately therein lies the problem with that part of the world, which was my initial question,

Is there pressure to get the job done, otherwise I am struggling to understand why an experienced and competant crew, as it has been said already, would enter into the gamble of descending below the MSA in bad weather while aware of the terrain below.

I am not trying to aportion blame on to the crew, but something must have influenced them to try to get in, and as it has been written already, I am sure they were aware as everyone who has posted is, just how perrilous the Goma region can be in bad weather.

I disagree with Gooneybird somewhat because as she said there is a good chance the facts will never be known, then it is down to sensible discussion and debate to try and understand what may have caused this so it doesnt happen to others.

[Gooneybird]

The trouble is south coast without reliable information we may never know. It could have been anything from mechanical failure to a culture of using makeshift approaches. It's all guesses and therefore hardly worth the effort of writing.

It's been a long time since I was in that region, is there really no approach? I seem to remember there being one?

[Propellerpilot]

What about a probability, that there was a mountain wave and extreme downdraft from thunderstorm or microburst activity that made them lose a lot of hight in an instant? or maybe the control-surfaces got damaged by extreame turbulence and became uncontrollable. Could that be possible ?

Just a month ago, I had a personal conversation with this very captain himself about exactly this subject because I wanted to learn something - he explained the dangers of this particular region and the problems of flying into Goma in IMC (which is basically next door) in great detail. This man had over a thousand of hours on type and has flown in the region and knew what it takes to fly there. It would surprise me, if they really did go below MSA volountarily, if not clear of terrain. Rudi was just about to upgrade to captain himself and has also had his share of Congo experience before this tragedy struck.

There used to be an GNSS Approach published in the Jepp. 2006 Don't know if it has been withdrawn. However ZS aircraft and crew as far as I know, have to be certified to use thease approaches and GPS is not permitted as a sole reference for navigation.

[setcruisepower]

there's no nav aids out that side. there is a GNSS approach into Bukavu though.

[Bontebok]

Yip, there is a GNSS app, with a step decend. They could have been "out-of-step" It happens so darn easily, maybe a bit of complacency. One tend to forget a step decend if you think you know the plate, ive seen it in my own experience. Doing a letdown with a citation in west Africa - reduced visibility, but with the ground and runway insight. I told my FO to stay on the letdown as its good practise. Asked him if he would like to brief me on the plate and he replied with "i know the procedure" He went out of step with me keeping visual contact outside. Obvioulsy there was a reason for the step and I told him to look up - there was a huge hill right infront of him! Great experience and a good lesson. As I said, it happens so bloody easily!

[setcruisepower]

they found the wreckage 8nm NW of Bukavu. I think they might have tried a " home made " approach.

[ONKYO]

The past week has seen 2 plane crashes involving ZS reg planes one at rand airport and now this, everybody died, 20 people gone............................this added to the almost countless number of fatal general aviation accidents that have occurred in the past 12 -24 months.

As pilots there's a small part of us that says we would make a better decision if placed in the situations that lead to all these crashes and hopefully we all will. We all need to start taking our flying more seriously and understand our limitations and that regardless of whatever experience we have there is always going to be situations or combination of events/circumstances that will be above our personal limitations.



My deepest sympathy to all the families

[JTrain]

Would the airplane have had a CVR or FDR?

Thanks,

jt

[Prop Job]

My deepest sympathy to all the family and friends of the passengers and crew. Even though I did not personally know anybody involved, it is always a very sad day to hear of an accident like this one.

To answer JTrain's question, a B190 is equipped with both a CVR and a FDR. I'm just not sure whether anybody will actually analyse them.

Prop Job

[Heli-Jet]

Can anybody quote of attach a SACAA document that allows ZS registered aircraft to do GPS approaches !!!

Should be interesting to see whether the insurance company will pay Cemair, Hull insurance or any insurance after their investigation.

Does the UN not provide flight crews TAF's and Metars for the destination and alternate wx

[V1... Ooops]

Would the airplane have had a CVR or FDR?

I think that depends entirely on whether the legislation governing the operation of the aircraft mandated either one.

The problem is, what legislation governed the flight, and what regulatory authority provided the oversight? The American FAA, because Air Serv (an American Part 91 operator) sold the tickets and hustled the charters? The South African CAA, in light of fact that the beneficial owner of the aircraft and the company that supplied the crew (Cemair) is South African? The policies and practices of the AOC holder (presumably Star Air Cargo, also of ZA)? The legislation of the DRC, the country where the aircraft was based and and also the point of origin and destination of the flight?

Or... did this entire rather convoluted arrangement manage to fall between the cracks and, as a result, was never supervised by any regulatory authority?

[V1... Ooops]

On page 1 of this thread, reference was made to ZS-OLD. Earlier this year, I observed that the Air Serv / Cemair aircraft operating in the DRC was ZS-OLG.

Does anyone know with certainty what the registration (and MSN) of the aircraft was?

[MungoP]

Does the UN not provide flight crews TAF's and Metars for the destination and alternate wx

This is Africa... T/storms are huge and like all T/storms, are dynamic, are localized and move/ develop and dissipate in short spaces of time... That part of the world (eastern Congo) is probably the most testing I've flown anywhere.... (and that includes the arctic in winter). High ground, vicious weather and little or nothing in the way of support... It's flying country that is very intollerant of mistákes in judgement or a sloppy approach to flying.... and even the best crews ( and these two were probably among the best out there by all acounts) can come to grief doing what they've done many times before and survived.... maybe they got caught in a violent down-draft... maybe they lost control due to getting too close to an abnormally large cell... maybe we'll never know.
It can happen to the best of us... unless we always elect to stay on the ground. whenever conditions are less than ideal... and they're rarely ideal in eastern Congo.

[Contains Nuts]

Devastating news. My thoughts are with the familys of those involved. I do not doubt that they did everything in their power to stay safe in an incredibly difficult environment.

[Heli-Jet]

1. Found out that UN does provide crews with wx and Bukavu is a UN operated airport. So they would have had a current TAF if they asked for it.
2. There is a high Grid MORA or as some have confused as the MSA, one has to have a published approach to get a MSA
3. ZS aircraft flying outside SA even for other contacting states are still under SA airlaw for operating aircraft. Therefore they cannot do GNSS approaches
4. Aircraft would have to have GPS coupled to HSI and be TSO129C approved
5. Crews would have to have the approved GNSS training if and when the SACAA approves GNSS approaches.
6. The Insurance company will probably not pay out any Insurance
7. The passengers families could sue the companies involved (Air Serv and Cemair) together with the Pilots estates

So for those of you wanting to fly like cowboys in Africa .... you might pay with your life

Aic 40.9
RNAV ARRIVAL AND NON PRECISION APPROACH
TRIALS AND DEMONSTRATIONS
1. This AIC intends to notify the ATM community that ATNS will be commencing with RNAV arrival and NPA trials and demonstrations in accordance with the ICAO planning targets and SARPS.
BACKGROUND
2 The global Air Navigation Plan, Doc 9750, guides the regions in their quest towards full implementation of CNS/ATM Systems. Improvements in navigation have already seen the progressive introduction of RNAV fixed routes as is mentioned in Doc 9750 and implemented in SA AIP ENR 3.3 – 5 paragraph 3.3.6. Further to this the introduction of RNAV arrivals and NPA’s must compliment the fixed RNAV routes.
3. The world-wide CNS/ATM Systems Implementation Conference held in 1998 mandated the regional planning process and implementation of the systems.
4. Doc 9750 stipulates that the AFI region must introduce fixed RNAV ATS routes progressively from 1994 through to 2010. This has been achieved in certain areas. RNAV arrivals for the AFI Region must be progressively introduced from 2003 onwards to 2010. This phase is in planning for trials and demonstrations.
5. AFI Doc 003 from where the National Airspace Masterplan obtains planning targets states that fixed RNAV ATS routes must be progressively introduced from 1999 onwards and that this must be followed by the introduction of GNSS based procedures with GNSS currently being accepted as part of the RNAV equipment for consideration.
6. The South African National Airspace Masterplan encourages the progressive introduction of RNP 1 from the year 2003 onwards.
GENERAL
7. ATNS, in order to complement the fixed RNAV routes, intends to trial and demonstrate RNAV arrival procedures commencing at the exit waypoints established at the end of the fixed RNAV routes. The RNAV arrival procedure will terminate at the beginning of the existing and conventional precision approach, alternatively, under agreed to conditions, will terminate on the planned GNSS NPA.

8. The trials and demonstrations for the RNAV arrival procedures and GNSS NPA’s will be conducted at the following airports:

• FACT – runway 01 only

• FADN – runway 24 only

• FAJS – runway 03R only

9. In order to participate in the above-mentioned trials and demonstrations airline operators will have to comply with the undermentioned minimum aircraft equipment.

• GNSS type receiver compliant with TSO C129-A with automatic turn anticipation and way point sequencing (RAIM monitoring is compulsory).
CONCLUSION
10. Airline operators who comply with the above-mentioned minimum aircraft equipment requirements and which are interested in participating in the trials and demonstrations are invited to register their interest with: - - 2
• General Manager: Air Traffic Management (Planning & Standards) ATNS ISANDO
E-MAIL : http://www.pprune.org/?emailimage=c952a18953633332f46158ac17cbc5b3
FAX : 011 392 3946
11. ATNS will ensure that participants receive an RNAV arrival procedure operation manual for the trials and demonstrations after entering into a memorandum of understanding between the two parties, which will contain the conditions as approved by the SACAA

[Prop Job]

Why even bother with a crash investigation. It seems Heli-jet has got all the answers. Heli-Jet, were you there? Were you in the cockpit when things started to go South? Obviously not, so I would appreciate it if you don't jump to conclusions so quickly. Obviously what you are explaining is a possibility, but it is only that, A POSSIBILITY. In that part of the world there are a number of other things that could cause this.

[Nickerbal]

Guys people died here, let us not investigate the crash yet, let us not jump to conclusions & let us not blame the crew. God forbid if I was in that cockpit seconds before impact.

However what I would like to say CLEARLY is that all aviators should rather look at the organizational methodologies that led to this disaster becasue once again people died.

And its not good enough for Suzanne Musgrave to say:

No Air Serv personnel were involved in the crash, group spokesperson Suzanne Musgrave told AP by telephone from Warrenton.

She said the plane was being flown by a South African commercial company, Cem Air.

Nor is it safe, good form or in any way professional to tag onto AOC's as ASI havent got one to start with and just like Cemair is being blamed for "blood on hands", ASI have a very sullied reputation becasue to date they have had:
1X C210 go down in Uganda
1X B200 have a gear failure = 100% mechanics error in West Africa.
IX Heli Pilot shot & killed in Afghanistan
1X Caravan totalled in Mozambique
1X Otter totalled in DRC
1X Heli side swipe a mountain in Afghanistan

And now 17 dead people; is that what its going to take to clean out this rotten apple barrel?

The above "blood on hands" is what normally happens when you are a nickel & dime organization with millions of dollars wasted, no AOC no Oversight etc.

I wish that this "killing of aircraft & crews" will stop when ASI closes its doors and stop riding the coat tails of others :ugh:

Any good lawyers out there to start filing suit?

[Heli-Jet]

Prop job .... let it make it simple for you

B1900 have two engines, unless there is a catasthophic failure, they continue flying. If well maintained B1900's don't fall out of the sky.
IF rated Pilots, should know about Grid MORA, ( cumulo granite not good that's why there is Grid Mora)
WX bad in Bukavu, no Approved approach in Bukavu - wihout VMC conditions.... go to alternate and wait it out.

Insurance investigators will probably check maintenance records to see whether there were any oustanding MEL's .... sorry what am I thinking pilots in Africa don't write up defects, then when it bites them in the ass everybody says what great guys they were and how they are so professional and how they don't take any cr.p from their employers.

Prop Job at a tender age of 23 let this be a lesson for you ... nobody forces you to fly, and aircraft just don't fly into the ground or drop out of the sky. You as PIC are accountable and have to set a good example for your SIC. There are legal ramifications, it is a pity they don't teach or emphasis this with airlaw.

[Heli-Jet]

The DRC CAA has a GNSS approach and so does the SACAA into Bukavu both differ with steep approach (glide angles) and if you where in a B1900 on the missed approach single engine you would be flying to the crash site.

Jeppesen does not have either of these approaches in their data base, therefore when you load up your FMS or GPS data card you will not have them there to do the approach. There are legal ramifications and Jeppesen is not stupid.

Pilots seem to think that you can take these third world approaches and load the waypoints into their GPS's and then fly the approach. The problem is that when you do that you only have enroute accuracy which is 5nm instead of the 0.3nm accuracy required in APPROACH MODE. That is why you need a RNP stand alone FMS or a TSO145 stand alone GPS in your aircraft to do a GNSS approach where there are no other approach aids such as Bukavu. Accuracy is important when using the GNSS and remember to check your RAIM before you do the approach.

Grizzly that's why you need training before you blast off into GPS lala land. I sure would like to see you explain your way out in a court room using your logic ... I quote you "The RSA pilot licence no longer specifies rated approach types, so as long as the crew were current on GNSS approaches, they were legally entitled to fly the approach in IMC below the MSA"

Pity you cannot ask the Russians that flew into the side of the montain in Bukavu back in 2006 using their hand held GPS's. Why they didn't get the required training to do a GPS approach. I am sure the insurance investigators will be looking at the B1900's GPS to see what they had and if it was legal.

The UN issued a memo to all flight crews in August 2006 not to do a GNSS approach into Bukavu because of everything I have said above.

Grizzly you are demonstating your lack of knowledge of GNSS requirements for:
1. Aircraft requirements
2. Crew training
3. Operating the GNSS for the approach
4. Legal requirements to fly the said approach

All I can say is be careful before you use the GNSS on an approach anywhere in the world .... do your homework !!!!!!

[126,7]

Crew obviously not professional
1. Found out that UN does provide crews with wx and Bukavu is a UN operated airport. So they would have had a current TAF if they asked for it.
2. There is a high Grid MORA or as some have confused as the MSA, one has to have a published approach to get a MSA
3. ZS aircraft flying outside SA even for other contacting states are still under SA airlaw for operating aircraft. Therefore they cannot do GNSS approaches
4. Aircraft would have to have GPS coupled to HSI and be TSO129C approved
5. Crews would have to have the approved GNSS training if and when the SACAA approves GNSS approaches.
6. The Insurance company will probably not pay out any Insurance
7. The passengers families could sue the companies involved (Air Serv and Cemair) together with the Pilots estates


How do you know that they didn't have the TAF?
How do you know what kind of approach they were flying and what equipment they had on board or what training the pilots have had? How do you know what the insurance company will do or what they will figure out about the crash? Do you already have the transcripts of the CVR? Was there even a CVR?

[planecrazi]

Having flown into and out of Bukavu for a period of 4-5 years, just over 10 years ago, with B1900 and B200, it reminds me of a story I witnessed. (Many stories in Bukavu alone)

I landed in Bukavu in rain 1995, NDB approach, half tar, half gravel runway in those days and was hoping for a quick turn around. I called for start and was told by ATC “Standby, we have two B737 inbound”.

I listened out and watched the first B737 Air Zaire land. The ATC began asking the second one his position, to which he was not able to give exact details. Tower cleared him for approach and I continued to standby for start. After ten minutes, or so, the second B737, says “field in sight” to which he was cleared to land, however no one could see him. The first B737 asked the second guy what was his position and he said he had landed. No second B737 could be seen anywhere.

Then the first B737 captain asked the second (missing) B737 guy what was the runway heading and elevation of the runway he was on, to which the other guy responded.

It turns out that the second B737 over flew Bukavu, landed on the other side of Lake Kivu, in Kemembe Rwanda, into a 1400m strip, where SAFAIR L100 was operating from. An extremely short strip, high elevation for a B737. I was asked by ATC to overfly Kamembe and confirm that the B737 was on the airfield, which I was able to confirm. I am sure some of the SAFAIR guys will confirm this story of the B737 which was at the end of their runway. (Hey Paulo!)

This B737 landed in the wrong country, which was at war with Zaire in those days and on the wrong side of the lake, into the wrong runway, of wrong direction and wrong elevation and claimed to have completed and NDB app field insight and landed 5 nm away. It took years to get the B737 out, a piece agreement between two countries, unloaded to make it very light and it was flown to GOMA, refueled and back to Kinshasa.

The point is, it is very easy to screw up anywhere no matter the size or the experience of the crew or aircraft!

We all try to be professional with tools we have to work with! How we carry out the duties as individuals, is a different story!

[Heli-Jet]

Goffel wrote ... "Apparently it was CFIT.......Gear was apparently down and hit terrain on the descent.(8 nm's from touchdown)."

Will be interesting to see what the CVR and FDR reveals.

The Goma Caravan (KAS) crash a couple years ago .... investigator reported that the Captain's wife (passenger) was found still strapped to the PIC seat when they arrived on the crash site.

[setcruisepower]

guys and girls...it was NOT an UN operated a/c. it was operated by Airserv Intl. the airserv crews do not have access to any UN facilities!
they have to make use of the no good congolese weather service and pay $10 for...that is IF you get any weather!

[Airman56]

Heli-Jet

I think is not difficulty to do an approach in bad weather if you know how to use OBS MODE.
I'm russian pilot and I fly in RDC 14 years.

http://i048.radikal.ru/0809/1d/8268bf0bce20.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

[Airman56]

This is Bukavu RNAV GNSS approach chart.

http://s46.radikal.ru/i112/0809/b5/92acd767d2cf.jpg

[V1... Ooops]

Heli-Jet:

Respectfully, may I point out that your posts are coming across as a bit 'belligerent'. You certainly have considerable knowledge to contribute to this discussion, but please, let's keep the focus on What is right and not on "Who was right".

Before you hit the 'post' button, review what you have written in your messages from a CRM perspective, drawing upon your knowledge in that area.

Thanks for your consideration of this request. It is, after all, a pretty somber topic - and a lot of the people who are participating here knew the crewmembers.

[V1... Ooops]

"The DRC CAA has a GNSS approach and so does the SACAA into Bukavu both differ with steep approach (glide angles)...

I'm a bit perplexed by that observation. My understanding of how navigation information is published, according to ICAO practice, is that it works like this:

1) The regulatory agency for the country in which the approach exists approves the approach, which is actually written in ARINC 424 compliant text, not pictorial form, then publishes that information.

2) Commercial organizations that publish navigation information, such as Jeppesen, then depict that information as they wish to (pictorially, by text, or in electronic database format) and promulgate it to their customers. Airlines that are sufficiently large may also create their own documents from the original information published by the state in which the approach is located.

No organization other than the regulatory authority of the state in which the approach is published, or an air carrier acting with the approval of their regulatory agency, may modify the content of the published information in any way. In other words, all that organizations such as Jeppesen do is add value by publishing the information in an easy to read or easy to access format.

I could accept that the CAA of the DRC has published an approach for Bukavu - it's in their country - but I cannot comprehend how the South African CAA could publish an approach for Bukavu unless it was an exact rendition of the data promulgated by the DRC CAA.

As for the approach not being in your electronic database - that is not, by itself, proof that Jeppesen has not published it. Some electronic databases are abridged to keep the file size to a minimum, for example, by excluding airports with runways below a certain length. Very modern aircraft with fully integrated avionics will not even present an approach to the pilot if the aircraft does not have the equipment required to fly the approach (in other words, what's the point of an aircraft displaying a DME-DME approach if it only has one DME in it?) The best way to check to see if Jeppesen has published it would be to check in a printed Jeppesen manual that you know has complete coverage of the DRC.

[planecrazi]

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/planecrazi/FZMAairport1.jpg http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp331/planecrazi/FZMA.jpg

[south coast]

As we are all aware it is a sad thread, a number of people have lost their lives and their families have lost loved ones.

It becomes even harder because some people who are posting also knew the people concerned, so emotion also plays a part in peoples' objectivity.

When it is someone we know who has died, it can sometimes seem impossible that they could have made a mistake or could have been at fault.

As it has already been said, all the facts are not known, so it falls to speculation.

However, the known facts are,

1.The crew decided to descend below the grid MORA.
2.They were in mountainous terrain.
3.The weather was bad.
4.The outcome.

We all have to make decisions and live with them. We all try to make the best decision possible given the factors present, the situation, our knowledge and many other factors.

Most of the time we make good decsions and sometimes bad decisions can be made. Sometimes good decisions are made and then an external factor which could not have been forseen can override what was initially a good decision.

Basically, I am sure the crew in question made a decision, was it the best one, that is open for debate, but they made it and tried their best to make it successful and as already said, none of us were there and therefore will never know what made them arrive at their decision.

All we can do is accept they made one, whether it was a good one or a bad one.

[Pitch&Fan]

While I certainly don't want to jump to any conclusions about the accident under discussion, there are a few important points that should be clearly understood, or expanded upon about modern (RNAV/GPS/GNSS) navigation methods that don't appear to be well-enough understood within the industry, and in particular, within the (very challenging) deep-dark African contract environment.

To be reasonable, I am obliged to admit not having operated under such conditions for some time, and as a pilot for a major airline, I am certainly not exposed to the highly variable conditions that contract pilots need to deal with on a daily basis.

That said, and as someone who has been heavily involved with the development and implementation of RNAV operations throughout the African continent, there are a few really important points, which I feel, should be made, and which may just help others to stay safe out there.

1. All South African registered operators require SA-CAA approval to conduct RNAV / GNSS operations. This approval is required for safety reasons, and any accident relating to the use of such nav' techniques would come under intense scrutiny by both the CAA and, of course, all related insurance companies. These will quite likely include the pilot’s life insurers.

CAA approval includes aircraft certification / technical compliance, pilot training, and organizational support issues.

2. The cockpit resource management aspects associated with such approaches are significantly different from the usual Radio-Nav operations which most of us were trained in, and warrant careful SOP development. Pilot situational awareness can very easily be lost during such operations, and this must be well catered for when planning, and training-for such a capability.

3. Electronic Navigation databases MUST be thoroughly checked for data integrity before being released for line use. Such checks are required over and above the basic quality checks, which are performed by the providers (EG: Jeppesen). The Nav databases change every 28 days, in accordance with the ARINC-424 cycle, and should be updated accordingly. This is often not done by operators in "far-off" places, and database integrity will certainly be compromised as a result of this reality. An out-of-date navigation database should not be used for IFR navigation... EVER.

Please forgive me if I sound like a smart-alek in this post, but the safety considerations surrounding RNAV operations are more involved than what many "smaller" (respectfully) operators realize. My advice to pilots operating in such an environment would be to avoid using this technology until the company has provided proper training, and the AOC is endorsed by the CAA for RNAV / GNSS operations.

Be careful... and don't allow yourselves or your colleagues to be lulled into an unsafe operation due to a lack of training or proper process. Your lives are worth more than that.

Safe flying folks!

Pitch&Fan.

[BUSHJEPPY]

The Jeppesen GNSS approach is for RWY 35. The first waypoint is at or above 11'000 feet before the step letdown SW of airport. Apparently, the wreckage is located 8 nm NW of the airport at 10'000 feet, right on the top of the highest mountain range when you come in from Kisangani. If you make a FliteStar route FZIC-FZMA direct GPS, the crash site is spot on the route. It was raining heavily in the region at that time.

[helldog]

Very sad to hear about this one. My thoughts are with the family and friends of those lost.

I have flown into Bukavu many a time, it is quite scary in bad weather. I made sure to keep visual contact with the ground at all times and tried to have an escape route at all times Never had a go at the approach that was posted.

RIP Lads :(

[celeron]

I see here is jepp plates posted for bakavu. Can anyone post the Airserv jungle jepp for bakavu. I know they do have JJ for all rwy's they operate to in DRC with their own revised MSA. I have seen them.

[MungoP]

I doubt very much that a JJ exists for Bukavu... I never saw one during my time with ASI though it's possible that one exists from the days prior to Jepp plates including the airport in its modern form. JJs are produced by and for operators utilizing small strips for which no approach has been listed. They do not (in my experience) detail any form of 'grandmothers let-down', they simply give a brief basic layout of the airstrip showing areas of concern to pilots ... a hill... runway slope ... people / cattle in the vicinity etc. I've constructed them myself and have never detailed any form of suggested let-down, including only a very generous MSA from each sector. Bukavu is a major airport (for that region) with published approach plates and would not warrent a JJ.
I hope you weren't implying that ASI or any other respected operator laid out their own MSAs or procedures that ran contrary to accepted practices.
Bush flying requires flying skills not commonly found (or taught) outside of areas of extreme remoteness. Those skills are adapted, practised and polished over time and if the pilots are cautious, dedicated, develop good judgement and are not too unlucky they become sought after professionals.... they are not cowboys, they simply aquire over time, skills that are not ordinarily found outside of those remote regions, being it the Congo, Alaska or some vast desert. The flying doesn't suit everybody and I've had the experience of flying with people from cosseted airline backgrounds who while being very competant in their own field found it impossible to make the mental adjustment to operations away from their familiar, civilised environment. They simply thought it dangerous and were unable to make the mental leap required to become accomplished in the field of remote area operations.
This form of flying can never attain the safety margins enjoyed by scheduled airline ops and if the operators were forced to adopt those procedures then flying in remote areas would cease altogether.
To a large extent the pilots flying in these regions are their own policemen and their own safety inspectors... the majority that I've had the privilege to work with became extremely adept at fulfilling those posts while achieving a very acceptable rate of success in getting the job done.
My best wishes to all of them who have now moved on and especially to those still out there... Stay safe guys.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Bush flying requires.....etc

Absolutely the spot on, the best distinguishment between airline ops and bush ops I ever read.

[Gooneybird]

I second that, an awesome and realistic post...one of the first on this thread :ok:

[icarus sun]

Having flown for ten years in africa including bukavu and recently in a b747. All i can say is that nothing changes. Still no navaids outside the capital,very poor coms,outside of capital wx reporting just guesswork. Notams etc useless. I treat overflying africa like overflying oceans. If anythig happens you are one your own, night time each country has only I lighted runway if it has power. The dark continent indeed. Fly safe.:ugh:

[Sir Osis of the river]

Mungo,

A great summary of the bush pilot's operating environment and situation.

However, don't kid yourself. We all used Jungle Jepps. Does not matter how reputable your company is or was, up to date charts were simply not available. The job had to be done and that was that.

However, there always came a time to say no, and one had to resect that.

I flew many hours in Zaire/.DRC and fortunately, got away witrh it.

My sincerest condolences to all concerned.


Sir O

[maxrated]

Does anyone know who the captain was, I would imagine the next of kin would have been notified by now, any gen on this appreciated ?

[mini]

Also any info on PAX.

RIP all

[Whenwe]

A very good post Mungo and there has also been some very informative posts as well.

As I understand the law a SA Part 121 operator has to have a wet lease agreement approved by the SACAA. ASI, as stated earlier, operates in accordance with FAA Part 91.

I doubt whether any SACAA inspector will allow Operational Control to be transferred to a Part 91 operator; the requirements are light years apart.

Operational Control cannot be transferred.

If the SA Investigators are allowed to investigate this accident then I am sure they will dig deep into the paper work............

I am truly sorry for those out there who have suffered a loss.

[V1... Ooops]

If the SA Investigators are allowed to investigate this accident then I am sure they will dig deep into the paper work...

Well, the South African 'TSB' (not sure what the exact term used is) will certainly be an accredited party to the investigation, because the aircraft was registered in South Africa. The American NTSB will also be accredited, because the aircraft was manufactured in the USA and also because one of the operators involved (AirServ) is an American operator.

The regulatory agencies (American FAA, SA CAA) are not directly involved in accident investigation, that is not part of the madate of a regulatory agency. They may become involved sooner or later (pre or post issue of the accident report) depending on the findings made by the TSB team that carries out the accident investigation.

[Whenwe]

In South Africa, the Minister of Transport appoints the Commisioner of Civil Aviation who has oversight / responsibility for the Civil Aviation Authority and (independently) the Accident Investigation Department.

I have been to Goma recently and am familiar with the flying conditions.

I am sick and tired of pilots and passengers losing their lives. Lets get to the bottom of this. There is nothing wrong with the South African Civil Aviation's abilty to enforce and maintain standards. Neither is there with the FAA.

Let us stop hiding behind the countries in Africa.
Please, let us all work together towards changing the safety culture in Africa.

[Gooneybird]

Whenwe I don't disagree with you at all mate. However in this case I knew the captain and he was very safety conscious....honestly don't even want to guess what happened here but he was no cowboy.

Whilst agreeing about safety culture you do have to bend to the realities of the situation, it's not hiding. There's little by the way of professional ATC, almost no radar, even if you have TCAS2 there's many a/c flying not even transponder equipped piloted by non English speakers, little reliable weather information, working nav aids etc... Seriously it's hard to plan a VFR flight that comes even close to the standards of a Western country let alone IFR. For a VFR flight in Canada for example I'd be able to pull up TAF's Metar's etc for my destination to check the validity of my VFR flight. I'd be able to call up ATC for updates. To give you an example: Blantyre and Lilongwe in Malawi don't even have phone lines to call each other..I used to relay messages between them! And Malawi is pretty civilized compared to many of these countries.

The safety culture can always be improved and we should strive to learn the lessons rather than working out who to blame but in the end until some drastic changes take place on this continent it will always claim may more lives than countries with better infrastructure. IMHO.

[Heli-Jet]

Pitch and Fan ..... Mate you got the point... for those flying the GNSS approach into Bukuva .... make sure you have the training, the equipment, Raim prior to the approach. Make sure there are no oustanding MEL's..

Otherwise be prepared to face a barrage of questions from a team of lawyers .... and then be prepared to loose all you have worked for.

Sure hope AirServ have all the ducks in a row, the engineers have done there work properly and have there paperwork ready. The CVR and FDR reveal what really happened. The investigators reports get published.

Thanks guys for the Jepp Approach into Bukavu. For those of you who have flown into Bukavu you will know there is no margin for error

[Pitch&Fan]

MungoP,

Your posting earlier about the bush flying environment, and those who operate in it is very good, and sums the situation up correctly. Bush pilots are doing highly specialised work, and as you obviously know... an in-depth, intimate knowledge of one's operating area is vital under extreme bush-ops conditions. I know, having been there myself.

That said, it still does not mean that the operators can end up being self-regulating. Unfortunately, the CAA is reasonably / relatively unable to get out to these type of places with any kind of regularity, and so the senior pilot in any such operation will usually end up taking the brunt of the responsibility for safety and regulatory compliance.

Now... Given the real-life requirements of these kind of operations... Out-of-reg', or out-of-limits, becomes fairly normal. Balanced field operations, fully PANS-OPS compliant IFR procedures, W&B, and a host of other factors get interpreted somewhat loosely. All these compromises to established regulations, will, besides taking one closer to the edge of the safety envelope, place one in a legally precarious situation if the doo hits the fan.

What then is the solution...In a real world environment? And in response to that self posed question / challenge, I can only say that it is practically impossible for a pilot to remain legally compliant in the face of such a reality. He, or she must therefore manage the risks as best possible. There will however, be accidents, and the consequences of any rule-breaking can, and will most likely, become a heavy burden to carry.

To all you guys and girls out there who are "making it work" on a daily basis... You are doing great work. What you MUST do however, is try to keep safety at the top of your priority list. Safety based actions / decisions may legally over-ride regulations under certain conditions. But to break the rules as a matter of daily habit is not what anyone should be doing.

I'm not however, implying that this particular B1900 crew were in any way outside of the law. This just seems to be a good place to discuss this difficult subject.

Strength to all the family and friends of the two fellows who went down at Bukavo. They called on their best judgement and skill that fateful day, and the fact that they were in the situation may well have due to an ill-advised instruction from their bosses. Jeppesen updates, comprehensive training, and an SOP compliant operational culture, and Nav database updates cost a lot, and cut into profits.

Maybe the correct culture regarding adherence to air-law, safety policies and legal compliance to technical status should begin at the ab-initio stage where we all get to fly unserviceable aircraft...Just to get the job done. At what stage does this lesson, or example get replaced with something better?

He who fails to learn from, and apply the lessons of history and hard-won experience, is bound to repeat those mistakes... possibly with less fortunate outcomes.

LET's LEARN SOMETHING FROM THIS!

[hexboy]

As parents of a 25 year old who had to build hours in Africa and also flew into Bukavu and various other airfields in DRC we would like to offer our sincere condolences and sympathy to the parents and families of the crew.

We knew our son was doing what he loved most but it was really hard being back at home knowing a little bit of what flying conditions are like in this part of the world.
Unfortunately it seems to be the only way to build hours and as he is now flying for an airline out of HK we are very grateful but also empathise with the parents and grieve with them.

Your son was doing what he loved - how many others waste their whole life following a career which they actually hate?

[ajet32]

Having flown A/C based in Bukavu for the last 2 years I can attest to the abysmal ATC and weather services. It is a confusing situation at the least. The A/P is operated by the UN/RVA. The UN supplies a tower and it is manned by a DRC controller with very little training and no access to weather reports other than what he is handed by the UN weather reporter/observer. Weather is available to MONUC crews from Air Ops , why it is not public I don't know, it isn't always great but it is better than nothing. There are also 2 STAR arrivals available on ICAO produced RVA charts. They are not updated on the 28/56 day schedule but can be obtained from operators who are using them now. They are up to date enough that the A/P diagram shows position of old NDB tower along with coord's of its former location.
The current Jepp FMS data base does not include the listed GNSS approach , the waypoints exist but the missed APP waypoints do not. This makes it both dangerous and most likely illegal to fly. ( Also your in enroute mode not approach as mentioned)
There is a JJ let down developed by an operator of medium A/C available and it starts over the lake at an altitude above the MSA/MORA.
Why as fellow operators / pilots don't we share this information with crews. Just because the registration isn't from the same country doesn't mean we shouldn't work together to help prevent these unfortunate accidents.

[ARENDIII]

To everyone out there-Africa in general is deficient with regards nav aids and the use of airborne equipment is trying to correct this deficiency.
However, notwithstanding the influence of weather, atrocious ATC, mountainous terrain and the ever present attitude of "Do it or we will get someone else to do it " and I include the UN in this we will never stop this carnage.
I appeal to all flight deck crew-Say THUS FAR AND NO FURTHER.
Honour the MSA and the Grid Mora and do not descend below unless on radar vectors or on an approved instrument approach.
If you cannot comply-divert to your alternate or do not accept the flight.
If anyone pressurises you to accept the flight PM me and I will take it further-we cannot accept the loss of lives and the reputation of SA pilots.
To all that are trying to do everything safely-well done and keep it up.
To those that have been affected by this tragedy-believe me, they were doing the best that they coud under the circumstances-no one coud ask more.
My sincerest condolences to you all-it shoud not be like this.
Arend III.

[ARENDIII]

Too true.
Let's wait for the accident investigation before we jump to conclusions, yes we woud all like to learn the lessons, but it is far too early.
What you said was so relevant-I knew a civil engineer who made 10X my salary but hated his work whereas I coud not wait to get up in the morning to go to the flying club.
I have to say that some of the "Magic" has rubbed off, mainly due to non aviation orientated management, but I woud never say that I made a mistake-nor woud I change anything.
Arend III.

[captain danger]

just what happened here..?

descent below MSA or what? GPS approach in kak weather...?

been there done that...can only say to the friends out there..

Africa.... well not yre friend when you need met TAFS or METARS..

Its very difficult to make the call and I for one will never be presured by some **** employed by the UN telling me what to do and where to go.

These twits will continue to drive their 4x4"s and live in luxury at the expense of the same people they should be helping.

my sincere condolences to Rudi his family and friends..

and for my part i dont know the captain or his pax..this must not happen again...i implore all you contract boys out there....be careful...very careful...

sincere to all the families...

[exjet]

My 5c worth,

Having done flown these contracts and ending up managing them (with my own aircraft on contract), there should be be no unnecessary pressure on crews to bust a MSA without the ground being visual. Go around and come back later. The owner and/or operator will be paid for that flight (and the next flight when the task is completed) and the 'hour builders' will get the time. Only the Air Ops guys get frustrated but that the guys normally sort out over a beer or 2 later.

Not really worth dieing for.

I didn't know the crew but my thoughts are with their families.

[angryblackman]

Are they hiring?

[MungoP]

Let's take a step back here....
Nobody can know if the crew intentionally descended below the MSA... We've all entered regions of convective activity and discovered it to be worse (much worse) than anticipated.... Downdrafts of 3000 fpm are not uncommon and the alternate wx may look even worse than the wx we're flying in to...

[V1... Ooops]

Earlier in this discussion, the question of SA CAA approval to carry out RNP approaches came up. One participant said that ZA crews could not utilize such approaches without the express permission of the SA CAA. That struck me as being a bit odd, because in other countries (Europe, Canada) crew can fly published RNP approaches as long as the aircraft has the appropriate equipment installed and the crew are appropriately qualified (instrument rating) to fly the approach.

I did find a document published by the SA CAA that provides some clarification, that document is here: OPERATOR AIRCREW AND AIRCRAFT APPROVAL FOR REQUIRED NAVIGATION PERFORMANCE CA AOC-AC-FO-012 (http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AOC/CA%20AOC-AC-FO-012%20RNP%2014-05-2007.pdf).

As is so often the case in aviation worldwide, a distinction is made between 'operators' and 'pilots'. In this case, the document applies to SA 121 and 135 operators, not globally to all South African pilots. But, I don't think any of us yet know what operating certificate was applicable to this flight - was it AirServ's Part 91 American certificate, Cem Air's certificate (if they have one), Star Air Cargo's certificate, or no certificate at all?

A prerequisite for anyone - pilot or operator - to carry out RNP approaches is that the aircraft must be equipped with avionics that provide the required RNP precision for the approach. It's not sufficient that the avionics box itself meet the TSO specification, it also has to be installed in accordance with the TSO requirements, and the navigation database in it must be kept up to date.

[spanner1900]

As an engineer who has worked the contract life for 5 years and that included DRC I just want to say that we all know that what we do is a dangerous job and the conditions we work in are sometimes not the best to say the least but that is the job we chose to do.We all have lost friends doing this job and my thoughts and prayers go out to all affected by this tradgedy. I just want to say lets just do our best amongst our selves as crew to not become a stat,please guys fly safe and come home to your love ones R.I.P

[Whenwe]

Goffel I am sure you are reading this thread.

Please get a link of this thread to the accident investigation team. There is some good information on this thread and it will also serve to get a message to them that we please ask them to get to the bottom of this.

[V1... Ooops]

It has been reported that the aircraft hit high ground approximately 15 km to the north-west of the airport, near the village of Kadjedje. The entire instrument approach procedure lies to the southwest of the airport.

The crew were familiar with the area, which suggests that they would not have intentionally descended below the known high ground until they knew with certainty that they had reached the lake, or were abeam the airport.

The accident appears to have happened in the enroute phase of flight, or during the initial descent from cruise altitude, not during maneuvering for approach.

Something is odd here. Are South African registered 19 seaters obliged to be equipped with Class A TAWS? Are they obliged to be equipped with contemporary GPS receivers, installed in accordance with a TSO (as opposed to a Garmin handheld sitting on the glareshield or clipped to the yoke)? If so, were these systems functioning properly in this aircraft?

For the record, here is the publicly advertised flight schedule: Air Serv Scheduled Flights (http://www.rdc-humanitaire.net/f/IMG/pdf/B1900C_D_flight_schedule.pdf)

Here is a link to a MONUC (UN Mission in DRC) press release that provides additional details about the passenger manifest: MONUC Press Release (http://www.monuc.org/News.aspx?newsID=18018)

[mattman]

I myself, as many other guys here, have flown for the UN under contract in this region. Out of all the African contracts I have done I regard the Eastern Congo one of the most dangerous flying areas I have ever experienced.

Having lived and worked out of Goma, I have had the privileged of experiencing some of the biggest convective build ups that I have ever witnessed. These storms build to such intensity and the energy produced will scare any aviator.
The high ground coupled with the weather has taken far too many lives in this area. We tried to push the introduction of EGPWS, and we were shut down.

Having done the flight assement of the GNSS approaches myself for the UN, dont try Bukavu unless you are well familiar with approach and have equipment and training. I was one of the few we voiced our concern over.

All I can say to the guys and girls that are there or are going there, don’t push this place don’t push the mountains and don’t push the weather take the bollocking and divert back.

R.I.P my friends :(

[CemAir]

It is with great sadness that we confirm the loss of ZS-OLD on Monday the 1st of September 2008. The aircraft crashed into high ground on track from Kisangani to Bukavu in poor weather and heavy rain approximately 8nm from Bukavu airport. 2 crew members and 15 passengers aboard were all fatally injured.

The crew were well experienced and familiar with the area. The aircraft was in the en-route phase of the flight.

Ronny Quinn was a wonderful and experienced man. His life had taken him all over the planet doing all sorts of work but flying was his one true love. His passion for his flying was unequalled and his technical knowledge of his aircraft was astounding.

Rudi Knoetze was a positive, intelligent man and an absolute delight to know. He was a competent pilot and a well rounded gentleman. He enjoyed the highest level of respect from all he knew.

Both men were true professionals and a book could be written about the great attributes they possessed. We were lucky to have them in our lives and they will be sorely missed. A tragic loss.

We offer our condolences to the friends and family of all on board and hope that one day when the tears have stopped the warmth and smiles they gave will be remembered. Rest in peace.

I hope that the people who write some of the posts in this site will take a second to remember that their speculation may be read by friends and family of the deceased and could cause additional pain during a very tough time. We appeal to you for respect.

[V1... Ooops]

Cemair:

Perhaps you could end some of the speculation by providing some facts.

You have already confirmed what many here have observed: That the crew were well experienced and familiar with the area, competent, and highly skilled. That leads to the reasonable presumption that crew error was likely not the primary cause of this accident.

What about the aircraft? Was it equipped with functional Class A TAWS? Considering that GNSS is the only navigation system that reliably serves the area your aircraft operated in, was the aircraft equipped with dual GPS, both installed in accordance with TSO and both approved by the SA CAA as the primary means of enroute and approach navigation? Do your operations specifications include SA CAA approval for use of RNP approaches? Did you provide the crews with the training the SA CAA requires to use RNP approaches?

Were the engines overhauled by the same organization that overhauled the engines on your B-1900 that crashed in Southern Sudan May 2, 2008?

We appeal to you for facts.

[Foxcotte]

This thread has raised some very valid points - both heated, and coldly considered. Bottom line is that half the posts are commisserating on the loss of two well-known and well-liked pilots, and the other half are wondering what happened and why.

What strikes me most is that no matter the speculation now, there is a substantial chance that most pilots flying around in Africa will never hear the outcome of any official investigation and enquiry into the circumstances and causes of the accident, and even less will take any notice of it. Most accidents that I can recall in recent years were rumours/bar room chat/pprune threads/chat frequency discussions etc. But little if anything of use officially. There's also an overwhelming attitude of invicibility on this continent ("it can't happen to me"), and 'shrug and carry on' regardless. It seems we think we're heroes, invincible and FAR superior to those that have gone before us - and because of it, we (and I use that in the broadest possible implication) keep on making the same, stupid, pointless, tragic errors.

How many times have planes flown CFIT in IMC in this region? Why do we keep on ploughing into terrain in poor conditions, operating into marginal airports, using airports/airstrips with flawed, home-made approaches? Why does familiarity ("yeah, I've been there before - no problem") make us so damn complacent? Every single one of us is human, and yes, we're going to bleed or die if we get it wrong.

It seems TCAS hasn't really improved things. Has there been a dip in statistics since glass cockpits arrived? Did hills suddenly spring up somewhere? When did storms become hazardous? Did GPS solve all the unnecessary/necessary CFITs? No?- then guys, we haven't learned a :mad: thing yet. And until we do, someone, somewhere, is going to repeat the mistakes all over again, and again. We need to get smart and quickly.

Do not allow this latest sad accident be a lesson unlearned.

[BUSHJEPPY]

If you look on CemAir website, you will read this:

BEECH 1900C Equipment:

Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door

Atlantic Turbine of Prince Edward Island, Canada, undertakes all the maintenance and overhauls on our engines. This highly regarded facility is one of only a few facilities that have been approved by Pratt & Whitney Canada for the overhaul of PT6A engines.

[Shrike200]

Had OLD's GPWS been fixed yet? Not stirring, I have good reason to ask.

And Foxcotte has a very valid point. Contract operators should be rabidly baying for accident investigation reports regarding these accidents, and passing on lessons learned to their crews.

[planecrazi]

TCAS helps to stop you flying into one another, whilst GPWS or EGPWS assists in preventing a pilot from flying into terrain.

Frankly, TCAS would not really prevent CFIT.

[LAS67]

I share the pain and suffering of those human lives lost in this accident, my sincere condolences to the family of the victims and friends.

If you think what is aviation nowadays, it has very few things to be invented compared to the Wright brothers? It resumes to a lot of rules legislated after many lives lost and after many accidents analyzed and causes being detected. We never had access to such amount of information and technology as today, but we cannot digest it and learn with.

Why, still accidents like these happen? Many causes for sure...

As the recovering process and identification will be concluded soon and
knowing, that in this part of the world an investigation might never be released, why not analyze the facts known on this accident and learn with them? After all we would like to know more... that is why we are here isn't?

Concerning this particular accident, anyone knows:
1. The exact location and altitude of the wreckage?
2. If there was an initial impact? If so, what were the coordinates
and altitude?
3. What was the area of the aircraft that touched the ground first?
4. Was the ELT deployed? Why?
5. Does it have CVR/FVR operational?
6. GPWS or equivalent operational?
7. What was the last complete metar provided?
8. Did they use home made approaches, since no star on Rwy17? What were the security fixes? Any or GPS straight in?
9. Altimeters, when it was last calibration done? When due? Where they both operational?
10. Does the altimeters from the wreckage indicate the pa setting? Does it matches with the QNH given by the twr?
11. Any recording from the twr when the last contact was made?
12. There are no TAF's at Bukavu, only Metar's?
13. Was this aircraft and crew, legally certified to perform a potential GNSS approach on Rwy35?
14. How much estimated fuel was on board at the time of the crash? Did they have the legal reserves? Or sufficient fob for a diversion?
15. What was the endurance reported at the time of take-off from Kisangani?
16. Did they have enough fuel to divert? If so to where?
17. What route they provided to the ATC departure aerodrome?
18. From the wreck. What did you noticed from the flap setting? Was the gear down?
19. Last HSI? Any problems detected?
20. Any snags reported? Where accepted by the MEL?
21. How many hours did the crew sleep before the flight?
22. Were they fit to fly that day? Or recovering from a heavy week-end?
23. Wx Radar was it operational?

Many questions will be associated to this accident, let's move on to facts???:ok: Any answers?

LAS

[Mobotu]

For those who are asking the question - Congo AAC (ex DAC) are heading the crash investigation into the B1900 accident.

A preliminary report following the initial investigation teams visit to the site (The day after the accident - yes things here are changing) has already been prepared for the NTSB and SA-CAA.

Access to the site has been difficult due to recent heavy rains and believe it or not a pride of lions having taken refuge around the site (Yes I know - Only in Africa!)

The most likely scenario seems to indicate an experienced crew entered or passed close to an active cell with the resulting downdrafts causing severe loss of altitude resulting in a collision with the surrounding terrain.

The attitude and configuration of the aircraft does NOT indicate CFIT but rather a fight on the part of the crew to maintain control of their aircraft until the very end.

The weather reported by Bukavu at the time was thunderstorms in the vicinity of the airport.

More information will be made available next week.

And YES Whenwe - they do read websites such as this and others to help provide additional information into this tradegy!

http://www.monuc.org/Home.aspx?lang=en

[DHC]

R.I.P. Ronny, we will never forget you, never :sad:

[JAIME LANDON]

I had the priviledge to spend some time with Ronnie around Africa. I am sure others like me will miss those awful vegetarian sausages, the famous "wear 'em for a week" red socks, and tales of life on the high sea's between 20 smokes and a bucket of coffee. Ronnie was one of life's great characters who made an impression on everybody he met.

Full tanks and tail winds mate - you made us laugh, always fly high.

[V1... Ooops]

If you look on CemAir website, you will read this:

BEECH 1900C Equipment:

Standard IFR package
IFR GPS
Colour Radar
Radar Altitude
406 ELT
TCAS
Flight data recorder
Cockpit voice recorder
Ground Proximity Warning System
HF Radio
Dual Panel
Cargo door

That's interesting information. Let's look at it in a bit more detail:

IFR GPS - Do you mean a GPSR that meets Gamma 1 performance criteria in accordance with RTCA/DO-229C, has been installed in accordance with the TSO, and has been approved by the SA CAA for sole source enroute and approach navigation? Or, perhaps, a pre-2000 GPSR that was installed back when the aircraft was built?

Did this aircraft have dual fitment of appropriately approved GPSRs, considering that GNSS is the only reliable source of navigation information in the area of operations?

Colour Radar - Was it serviceable on September 1?

TCAS - Do you mean TCAS I, TCAS II, or simply TAS (not that it is germane to this accident, but let's have a little precision here)?

Ground Proximity Warning System - GPWS? That 1970s technology has long since been retired in Europe and North America. GPWS has no terrain database and therefore cannot provide any form of predictive warning. All it can do is let you know how you relate to what your radar altimeter sees - in other words, what is directly underneath your aircraft. It offers very little protection in mountainous areas.

Class A TAWS (Terrain Awareness Warning System), which is the ICAO term for what Honeywell originally introduced as EGPWS (their proprietary name) is the current standard for turbine aircraft with 9 or more seats operated commercially. Class A TAWS does provide predictive warning, and does provide 'look-ahead' capability. Does South Africa require Class A TAWS be fitted to 19 seat turbine aircraft engaged in public commercial operations? Did this aircraft have Class A TAWS fitted? Was it functional?

You also wrote:
Atlantic Turbine of Prince Edward Island, Canada, undertakes all the maintenance and overhauls on our engines. This highly regarded facility is one of only a few facilities that have been approved by Pratt & Whitney Canada for the overhaul of PT6A engines.

Be that as it may, who did the most recent overhaul on the two engines fitted to this aircraft? Was it Atlantic Turbines? Or was it a shop that is not Pratt & Whitney approved? Are you implying that Atlantic Turbines did the most recent overhaul on the engines of Cemair's 1900C aircraft SN UC-65 (5Y-FLX), the aircraft that crashed in South Sudan on May 2? I don't think so, so let's not mislead the people here, please. Pray tell, what shop most recently overhauled the engines on the aircraft that crashed September 1?

In another thread (http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/331357-airserv.html#post4190225), you wrote: ...But for that Airserv needs an AOC..which makes it very clear that you knew AirServ did not have the appropriate AOC to be carrying out public commercial air carrier operations in the DRC.

Does Cem Air have the appropriate AOC to carry out public commercial air carrier operations in the DRC? Did the SA CAA know what Cem Air was doing with that aircraft in the DRC?

[V1... Ooops]

For the record, here is the passenger list: Voici les personnes décédées lors du crash de l'avion humanitaire Air Serv (http://www.societecivile.cd/node/3887)

[V1... Ooops]

And some topical and, sadly, prescient discussion of AirServ, from June of this year here on PPrune: Airserv (http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/331357-airserv.html).

[joe north]

V1

you wouldn't be the guy who landed a 1900 with the park brake on in aman would you?

[V1... Ooops]

No, that is not me. I have never crewed on a 1900.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

V1...Oops - your investigative ability is astounding - you sure there's no job for you at the CIA? What exactly is your morbid fascination with the equipment in the plane? If you that enthralled by what the plane was equipped with and you simply cannot wait for the reports to come out, why don't you just get hold of CemAir and ask them yourself?

But 13 posts later while you are still hammering away with your "attention to detail" and "appeal for facts", everyone else is paying tributes to two great aviation characters and trying to come to terms with the very sad tragedy. Please brother, have a little respect and compassion.

[LAS67]

King Leopard,

If you leave in Leopardville, tell me if you have the report on the last Hewa Bora at Goma....the AAC might have done the investigation there no?

How can you be so sure that results on this one will be released? Because it was SA registred? Therefore external ?

AAC has the authority to lead this investigation, as the plane went down in DRC, but why did they validate this aircraft without AOC? Knowing that it operates regular pax transport with fixed routings in DRC?

Regards,
LAS67

[Gooneybird]

Never had the pleasure of meeting Rudi but I knew Ronnie and will miss him being around.

[Shrike200]

Actually, I found V1's posts quite relevant, especially since somebody calling themselves 'Cemair' is posting on this thread. Whether that person is actually somebody from Cemair, is of course open to debate. This is an anonymous forum after all. Hopefully, the realisation that one cannot just throw any old equipment into any aircraft and call it 'IFR certified' (for example) is slowly penetrating operators' skulls.

As for respectful, we should all be expecting good answers to questions like these if the deaths of these people (and the many before them in similar circumstances) means anything at all to us. I would expect no less were it myself who had died. I find nothing disrespectful about V1's posts. IMHO.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

I have absolutely no problem with questions being asked and yes, some of them are relevant and yes, we can all learn from this - that I am certainly not disputing.

However, I do have a problem with the tact and sensitivity with which the questions are asked and the posts are written.

The response "We appeal to you for facts" at the end of the post, where CemAir had ended their post with "We appeal to you for respect" I found completely inappropriate and tactless. The tone of the posts, as I read them, were accusational (if that's a word) and indicting, which under the circumstances I feel is not called for.

All I'm saying is that there are many of us who have been affected by this accident and many who are heartbroken and trying to deal with their grief. A little bit of consideration for these people in this difficult time, I don't think is too much to ask.

[V1... Ooops]

Life’s-A-Beech:

Every time a discussion appears here on PPrune about a fatal accident in sub-Saharan Africa, two different themes soon appear in the conversation. The first is “Let our crewmembers Rest In Peace, let’s not pursue this discussion further, other than of course posting our obsequies to the crewmembers we knew”. The other theme is “What factors contributed to this accident, and what can we learn from it to avoid future repetitions”. That is what I am pursuing. I did not know the crew, for that reason I can’t offer obsequies without being superficial and gratuitous.

Sub-Saharan Africa in general, and the DRC in particular, has an extraordinarily high rate of public transport aviation accidents. Possible contributory factors in the DRC include the nature of the terrain (mountainous), the nature of the weather (convective), few navigational aids, minimal aviation support infrastructure (ATC, ATS), and weak regulatory oversight.

If we take a critical and comparative look at those items individually, though, it becomes apparent to those of us who are aviation professionals that many of them are not, a priori, insurmountable barriers to safe operations. Europe and North America also have mountainous terrain, but that doesn’t cause an increase in CFIT accidents. Have a look at the approach plates for Juneau, AK or Innsbruck, Austria – the terrain you will see there is far more threatening that what lies around Bukavu. Angola and Mozambique have similar strong convective activity (and similar limited weather observation capability), but weather related accidents in those two countries are not substantially out of line with world accident rates for that same causal factor. Alaska and Northern Canada have few ground based navigational aids, many short, rough, or unimproved strips, and minimal aviation support infrastructure relative to the size of the territory, but despite this, the public is assured of a reasonable level of safety in public commercial operations in those areas.

This leaves lack of regulatory oversight as the remaining and most significant contributing factor. It’s obvious that countries that are in the midst of – or have just emerged from – a civil war are going to have a weak civil aviation regulatory authority. We can’t blame the people or the government of the DRC or South Sudan for not being able to provide ICAO standard oversight of civil aviation activities. Heck, in both cases, the governments are overwhelmed with other far more pressing concerns, such as keeping the peace, or providing the basic necessities of life to the population, or trying to rebuild infrastructure and gain some control over the country.

This is where this particular accident – as well as the AirServ accidents of 21 January 2008 and 30 August 2007 – get interesting.

None of those accidents involved locally (DRC) registered aircraft. None of those accidents involved local operators, in other words, none of the operators held a DRC operation certificate. These were all pure expatriate operations, using American or South African registered aircraft crewed by Americans or South Africans, under the operational control of American or South African companies.

Neither America or South Africa are lesser developed countries. Both of these countries have ‘first world’ standard regulatory authorities. Although one could make a weak argument that the DRC AAC (the formal name for the aviation regulatory authority of the DRC) should have provided regulatory oversight, where the heck was the South African CAA? Where was the American FAA? The South African CAA certainly must have known that Cem Air was flying that 1900C on scheduled public commercial services, and the American FAA certainly must have known that AirServ was selling the tickets and holding that aircraft out for charter. What MORAL, if not legal, obligation did these two agencies have to step in and exercise some operational control over the business activities of their citizens in the DRC?

Had AirServ been operating the same type of service in the United States, they would have been obliged to hold a Part 135 OC, and they would have been obliged to comply with all the applicable 135 rules as well as additional operations specifications that the FAA would have imposed in light of unique hazards presented by the region of operation. At the least, this would have meant dual Gamma 1 GPSRs, Class A TAWS, regular simulator training for the crews, flight and duty time limits, operator specific MELs, appropriate dispatch procedures including in-flight operational control, and flight and duty time limits. Had Cem Air been operating the same type of service in South Africa, the South African CAA would have imposed very similar requirements – presuming, of course, that the South African CAA was even willing to take the first step of granting Cem Air an operating certificate that allows them to offer public commercial service.

Why is it that operators from highly developed countries (the USA and SA) can set up operations in lesser developed countries and operate with absolute impunity from the rules that they would have to follow in their home countries? I’m not talking about short-term disaster relief here, such as a rapid response to a tsunami, earthquake, or a sudden political event – according to their own website, AirServ has been active in the DRC since 1999. That’s more than long enough to get their house in order. I don’t know how long Cem Air has been around, but it is my understanding that the principals behind Cem Air are not novices, they have been active in civil aviation in South Africa long enough to know the rules – and in several cases, have had the rules formally drawn to their attention by the South African judicial system.

The provision of air transport in any country – first world or third world – is a competitive business that rewards the operator who can offer the transportation service at the lowest cost. The only reason that the traveling public (and the pilots, for that matter) enjoy any level of safety anywhere in the world is because regulatory authorities step in and impose minimum compliance requirements. There is not a single public commercial carrier in the world who would voluntarily fit TCAS, ACAS, contemporary GPWS, CVRs, FDRs, provide crew training, provide adequate operational control, impose duty and rest requirements, operate a quality assurance system and so forth unless they were obliged to by a regulatory authority to whom they were accountable.

I’ve been involved in humanitarian aviation in sub-Saharan Africa for 20 years. I’ve been there, I’ve done it, and I’ve bought the T-shirt. I’ve had one engine blown clean off the wing of my multi-engine turbine by hostile fire, and the only reason I’m still alive today is because the operator I was working for fully complied with all the first-world rules they were subject to. They sent the engines out to factory approved overhaul facilities when they were due, which is why my remaining engine was able to take me home, rather than take me to the scene of the crash. They sent me and my co-pilot out to the best available simulator training every year, which is why he and I had some knowledge of what to do and how to do it when we lost the engine. I’m grateful that I was lucky enough to work for a company that was supervised by a competent, professional, no-nonsense regulatory authority, even though that regulatory authority was from an entirely different continent. That company (and others of equal quality) are still around today, but do you think they can compete on price with organizations that get little or no regulatory supervision? They don't even waste their time bidding.

I’m saddened and disgusted to see the same scenario repeated again and again: Operators from fully developed countries head abroad, set up shop, then willingly and knowingly fail to comply with the rules that would apply to them if they were back in their home country, thus enabling them to offer their services at the lowest price. It’s nonsense, it’s wrong, it’s immoral, and it’s not doing anyone any good, other than lining the pockets of the aircraft owners and lessors.

Look at the history of humanitarian aviation in sub-Saharan Africa over the past couple of decades. We’ve seen Rossair come in during the 1990s and undercut everyone else on price, thus establishing a dominant position in the ACMI business. They certainly didn’t comply with the rules that would have been applicable to them if they were conducting similar operations in South Africa, and before they went down, their maintenance practices fell far short of what the law in SA dictates. Aviation Assistance was in there around the same time, operating out of Europe instead of SA, but with the same non-compliance to the operational and maintenance rules that applied in their country of registration. Both Rossair and Aviation Assistance have since folded, but the same players keep popping up over and over again – according to Cem Air’s website, their maintenance manager is none other than the maintenance manager of Rossair at the time Rossair folded.

By comparison, take a look at public commercial aviation in Asia. 30 or 40 years ago, many Asian countries were in the same place as their counterparts in Africa – newly independent, or just coming out of a civil war, or otherwise starting from scratch so far as aviation safety and regulatory oversight is concerned. Since then, local (domestic) carriers have emerged, and thanks to assistance put in place by ICAO, IATA, and others, both the carriers and the local regulatory agencies have developed their operational skills and established a level of safety that, while perhaps not perfect, is at least showing steady improvement from year to year. Would they have been able to accomplish this if foreign operators were in their country eating their lunch and operating with impunity from the law? Not damn likely.

I’m not suggesting here that expatriate aviation operations are inherently wrong. What I am saying is that it is absolutely wrong that an operator from a country that knows how to do things right and has legislation in place mandating that things should be done right – whether that is South Africa, the United States, Denmark, or elsewhere – should be able to operate in a lesser-developed country without being obliged to follow the same rules that would apply to them at home. That is the point that needs to be pressed home, and until the regulatory authorities do this, this same sad and familiar scenario of ‘yet another foreign registered aircraft crashes in a lesser developed country’ is going to continue to be repeated over and over again.

If foreign operators were obliged by their regulatory authority to follow the same standards abroad that apply to them at home, and the regulatory agencies of the state of registration kept a close eye on what their operators do abroad, the foreign operators would (at first) offer the traveling public a clear operational and safety advantage compared to domestic operators in lesser developed countries. But, at least the contract price structure would enable the domestic operators to start up and attempt to grab their share of the pie by offering the same level of safety as their first world competitors. That would benefit our industry, and would benefit the traveling public (and the crews).

[Whenwe]

My Dear V1,

Hear... Hear!!!!
Every now and then I have the privilege of reading an above average posting. You have my vote.

SACAA are you reading??

[exjet]

V1, I couldn't agree more.

:ok:

[south coast]

Excellent post V1.

I think the reasons why some operators from First World countries are behaving like Thrid World operators is because the directors of those companies or owners of the planes are making huge First World money while providing a Third World service, which in basic terms equates to a far bigger profit margin.

They are not there because they are humanitarians.

Secondly, one has also to factor in the Russian/Ukranian factor into the accident numbers, we have all seen how they operate, to their own set of standards, to their own alcohol blood level, to their own maintenance standards and 'hammer and hack-saw' Service Bullitins.

Not to take away from your post, I agree in principle with what you say, but in reality I think it is very complicated.

[Airman56]

south coast

Very interesting idea.....
Explain please that such "own alcohol blood level" in the Russian/Ukranian body.
And what is the causality between the cause of the accident of B1900 and this level of the alcohol in the blood of Russian pilots?
Otherwise I have to say, that you can not drink and you can not fly.

[icarus sun]

Great post v1, as always it boils down to money. The lowest bid or the highest bribe usually wins in africa. Safety a very secondary consideration seems to be theme in Africa. Witness the number of russian aircraft crashes, rock bottom prices and many accidents.:ugh:

[Hot Shots]

:ok: V1....... Abselutely great post!!

[Gooneybird]

Well we're all here for a profit.

Some well made points but I'm still not sure that they wouldn't have been more appropriate on a thread of their own or at least based on an accident where more facts were known.

Answer me this though: Let's take TCAS11 as an example although no relevance to the recent tragedy. Excellent system but less valuable in most of Africa than 1st world environments due to the fact that not all aircraft are transponder equipped. So, if a 1st world operator sends out an aircraft equipped with TCAS11 and crew trained to use it and then the same aircraft crashes into an a non transponder equipped local aircraft, are you going to blame the 1st world operator?
Are there not political and environmental pressures at work here that are outside of the scope of the operators or pilots? I'm not trying to let dodgy operators off the hook, merely trying to be practical.

Should we do sim training that includes semi literate controllers babbling in any language other than English with QNH's that are wrong and faulty nav aids maybe?

Accident investigators trained to deal with hostile areas, and looted crash sites?

Realistically it'll take a lot more than IATA, the UN and a bunch of well meaning NGOs to change Africa.

As pilots we can only really refuse to fly overweight, unequipped and under trained etc.. and on that note...we should do that little we can.

My 2 cents on the matter.

[maxrated]

V1

You make some valid points but one or two things I feel you are out of line on.

You mention that Rossair, as a South African, company went out of bussiness as a result of poor maintenance standards and subsequently a senior ex Rossair engineer is now the senior engineer at Cemair.

Firstly after looking at your profile one can assume that you work/fly for Zimex, of Geneva and so, would have a vested interest in the elimination of SA operators from your company's sphere of influence and as such subsequently be biased in your opinion of SA operators.

Just so that you know, Rossair was able to undercut your company's and others rates mainly as a result of currency disparities prevalent at the time thereby winning tenders over company's who worked from stronger currency bases.

Rossair went out of business as a result of poor fiscal management not , as you suggest, poor aircraft maintenance standards. As I recall Rossair had greater than 99 percent dispatch reliability for their clients in Algeria (which were also your clients) and passed the infield client maintenance audits.

Admittedly, Zimex probably has the highest DHC 6 maintenance standards in the world, Swiss precision, and all that, but that does not mean that SA operators are by default, all poorly maintained.

Your inferance, that the crash under discussion on this thread was caused by poor maintenance , because the Cemair Chief Engineer used to work for Rossair is ridiculous and unsubstanciated.:=

[planecrazi]

MAXRATED, You are right on about Rossair.

V1, I also agree with most of what you said.

I recall a ZIMEX Twotter having SAM7 take out an engine, I think it was Angola, possibly around 1991-92. Was that you V1?

[flux]

Gooneybird, What are you talking about. When was the last time you were in Africa? (See you in UK). Most ac in Africa are transponder equipped. South Coast your post on Russian and Ukrainian pilots being intoxicated is a little out of line. V1 nice post!

[propspanner]

I have been following this thread, and yes its a network where all give there 2 cents.
Now I ask all of You!
Everyone of these pro Pilots. Can you honestly say while flying in Africa, that there has not been a second, not minute or day, A SECOND! That you have not done it accordingly to the Books???

And then if there is? Well you need to go and get a rag and wipe that s:yuk:t off your gip. As I have been all over Africa with all kind of contracts. And even the "best" pilot in my eyes has broken some "LAW"! :oh:

Then we get to MR Swiss :ugh:Ooops V! Knowing everything, should be a rocket scientist. Do you remember a few years ago of a Twin Twotter that sliced itself up in Algeria?? (Prop almost trimming pilots hear):eek:
And then we will not talk about a cabin heat problem in a new 1900 in Algeria?? And if you wanna point out "shoddy" maintenance?? Then the planes should fall out of the ski? Maybe you should start wearing a hard hat??

So yes..... sticks and bones can break bones.
And all what is said, not one of you guys were in the cockpit at that moment in time!

So lets get the right people to do there work and if You all who know what if and what what and all the other ifs. Go and do there work for them! Go tell them how to do it!


PS. South-Coast, I hope you still doing your CRM??:ok:

[south coast]

Flux and Airman 56, yes I stand by my comments, perhaps a gross generalisation, but I saw it first hand and therefore feel I can quote it.

Ukranian crew in Kalemie drink themselves silly and then up and fly within hours on a regular basis.

But that is not what this thread is about, it was merely a point which has and does happen.

[Airman56]

south coast

OK. And Ukranian crew in Kalemie they are the men.
But what about this.

An EasyJet pilot is facing the sack for being more than five times the legal alcohol limit when she arrived to take charge of a flight packed with 120 passengers at Berlin's Schönefeld airport.
The captain, who was one of the low-cost airline's few female pilots, aroused the suspicion of colleagues when she turned up for flight EZY3455 to the Swiss city of Basle at 6.45am on Saturday.

[Gooneybird]

flux Gooneybird, What are you talking about. When was the last time you were in Africa? (See you in UK). Most ac in Africa are transponder equipped. South Coast your post on Russian and Ukrainian pilots being intoxicated is a little out of line. V1 nice post!

I'm from the UK but have been working in Africa for 7 seven odd years and still am.

Plenty of a/c that I've seen aren't transponder equipped or haven't been calibrated in years, and no I'm not mostly talking about ZS registered. Anyway the TCAS11/transponder was merely an example of how 1st world rules don't work the same way in Africa as they do in their countries of origin.

[V1... Ooops]

Firstly after looking at your profile one can assume that you work/fly for Zimex, of Geneva and so, would have a vested interest…
No, I don’t work for Zimex. I did work for them in the 1980s and 1990s, but I have not worked for them since the beginning of this decade – that’s over 8 years now. I don’t think I have spoken to anyone at the company for several years, except for social chit-chat when I run into staff in the village. I am not promoting that company (or any other operator for that matter), and that is why I didn’t even mention their company name or their country of origin in my original post.

Please, go back and read the post I made, but this time, don’t go looking for anything between the lines. The point I have tried so hard to make is that we need to look at the level of regulatory oversight that the state of registry exercises over aircraft and aircraft operators when they are conducting foreign operations.

South African operators have the experience, the equipment, the financial resources, and the human resources necessary to meet ‘best industry practice’ safety standards, measured against any benchmark you choose – SA regulations, North American regulations, or European regulations. This is obvious if you look at the high level of safety provided to passengers and crew who travel in South African public commercial domestic operations or South African flag carrier operations. But, the South African CAA does not exercise this same level of regulatory oversight to their aircraft and their operators when they set up shop in another country. Neither, apparently, does the US FAA or (in the early part of this decade, at least) did the Danish.

Some regulatory authorities keep a very close watch on their aircraft and a very tight leash on their commercial operators wherever they may be. The Swiss, the British, and the Canadians are good examples of this. The Ugandan CAA also keeps a very close watch over their operators, both at home and abroad.

Goonybird, it is to everyone’s benefit – and that includes the crew as well as the passengers – that public commercial air transportation is tightly regulated and closely supervised. You know as well as I do that in the absence of a strong and effective regulatory presence, operators – no matter where they are from - will not voluntarily comply with best industry practice. If there is effective regulatory oversight, operators will all follow the same set of rules. That actually levels the playing field for competition. Look at the number of operators active in Asia to Europe or Asia to North America air freight, or Western Europe to North America passenger operations. They are all tightly regulated and closely supervised, but there is still an extraordinary amount of competition in that market.

The issue this accident raises, as it relates to foreign air operators operating in the DRC, is “Who is going to bell the cat?” The regulatory authority of the DRC does not have the capability to effectively supervise public air transportation in their country. We can hardly blame them for this, their country has just emerged from a long period of war and the conflict still is not over in parts of the country. We don't consider it to be a 'failing' of the government of the DRC that they need assistance with peacekeeping, thus, we provide MONUC peacekeepers. Why are we not also providing aviation regulatory oversight during the DRC's time of need?

My point is that the regulatory authorities from the state of registration of aircraft that are operating public transport in the DRC have a MORAL obligation to step up to the plate and ensure that their citizens abide by the same laws that would apply to them at home. No more and no less than this.

…I recall a ZIMEX Twin Otter having SAM7 take out an engine, I think it was Angola, possibly around 1991-92. Was that you V1?
Yes, that was me.

[Gooneybird]

Flux and Airman 56, yes I stand by my comments, perhaps a gross generalisation, but I saw it first hand and therefore feel I can quote it.


Have to agree, seen it too.

[chuks]

First, yes, I am currently working for that Swiss company, in North Africa where I am a Twin Otter pilot.

I am at the point (age 60-plus) where there's no real pressure to prove anything much. They give me a trip and I fly it to the best of my ability but yes there have been days when I just couldn't get the job done. Lack of local experience, reluctance to take risks, lack of ability even, given that I am probably not the world's greatest Twin Otter pilot. (Until I took this job I had flown a Twin Otter exactly twice from an unpaved strip! I had always operated from paved runways, odd as that might seem, with most of my "bush strip" flying having been done in 400-series Cessnas.)

I have to live with knowing that there are guys who could probably get a trip done that I cannot. Luckily, my employer is very good about this and seem to be happy with my level of ability. Too, nowadays they are under a reasonable amount of supervision from the Swiss authorities, FOCA. It is not the case that they are just turned loose to operate in a cowboy way in the Third World.

I agree with V1 that cowboy operators are a big part of the problem, carrying First World registrations and operating to Third World standards. Part of the problem there, though, is the individual pilot who chooses to ignore, bend or break the rules.

When it comes to that I think I only need to mention that I used to work in Nigeria. I would have lasted about one tour if I had chosen to do everything by the book but I worked there off and on from 1981 until 2005.

The most unhelpful thing is to just point a finger in another direction. I was told by another pilot (falsely) that TCAS makes no sense because of all those airplanes without transponders, plus why should he switch his on given that I had TCAS and he didn't? I had to guess that man did not put in a lot of time studying ICAO SARPs, plus being dumb as a bag of hammers. No need to raise HIS game with all those other losers flying around, eh?

All this about the hard-drinking Ivans... I knew a few Russians in Nigeria and they seemed okay to me. Way underpaid, something like $500/month I was told, and the equipment looked as if it had been made in a locomotive works but they were out there getting the job done and if they were drinking in the line shack at least they never offered me any! I helped one guy write a CV because he wanted to try to get a better job, when I found out he was really quite accomplished in Russian terms. Come to that, the French often take a glass of wine with their lunch and then go commit aviation; it isn't just the Rooskies drinking the brake fluid.

Another thing is this finger-pointing that soothes us. Joe Bloggs dinged in but that is because poor old Joe was obviously a screw-up, not like US! I remember one of the biggest finger-pointers I knew, a legend in his own mind, who ended up doing a CFIT to the grim amusement of many who knew him.

I guess on the one hand we need to wait for the report. On the other hand we need to listen to the bush telegraph and review our own individual ways of getting the job done.

I once had to tell a nervous co-pilot that there was no such thing as a safe airplane. Even parked with the chocks in, the damned thing could have a gear collapse and squash you like a bug. What there is, is an acceptable level of risk and that is what we are paid to find.

[Pitch&Fan]

Hi All,

I believe that V1...Oops has a valid point to make. Read his postings carefully, and try to remain objective.

REGULATORY OVERSIGHT

Human nature is such, that we require policing. That's just the way it is! By the way The SA-CAA guys are reading this thread.

Cheers,

Pitch&Fan

[ajet32]

South coast is regrettably correct. I have seen the Russian helo crews drink right up to handover. they stopped drinking when they went on standby duty. This was both in the DRC and in Sudan. It is the norm rather than the exception. Small drink Captain for your health, don't worry is no problem.
Just the way it is in Africa.

[south coast]

Airman 56 said,

'An EasyJet pilot is facing the sack for being more than five times the legal alcohol limit when she arrived to take charge of a flight packed with 120 passengers at Berlin's Schönefeld airport.
The captain, who was one of the low-cost airline's few female pilots, aroused the suspicion of colleagues when she turned up for flight EZY3455 to the Swiss city of Basle at 6.45am on Saturday.'


Dont get me wrong, I am not saying this is unique to DCR nor to Ukranian crews, of course it happens all over the world, but as your example points out, when crews in Europe or the USA turn up to work drunk, they are found out and stopped, however, the point I believe V1 to be making is backed up by this example, there is absouletly no regulatory body in place to stop this kind of thing happening in the field, read DRC.

Also, the point was about the unacceptably high numbers of crashes and loss of life within the DRC and not Europe.

[Jamex]

Once again I find myself having to agree with Southcoast. There is a well-known South African operator of DC9's who is claiming he makes USD50,000 per day, per aircraft, PROFIT in the DRC and how he would rather operate there BECAUSE of their lack of oversight. I personally have witnessed (in the early 2000's) the crew of an AN12 doing an engine change in Windhoek as well as a re-spray and registration change before bringing the a/c back to SA. On my first trip to Luanda with Safair in the early '90's, I went up to an AN12 (first time I had seen one "in the flesh") Spoke to the crew who offered me alcohol. On telling them I had to fly in +-4hrs, they assured me its no problem they were flying in 1 hour! So, I stand with Southcoast on this matter. V1, brilliant post!

[I.R.PIRATE]

USed to watch a certain IL-76 crew at Saurimo nearly every day. Pull up to the ramp, and while the aircraft was being offloaded and re-loaded, the crew would quaff a bottle of two of Russia's finest while sitting on coke crates playing cards. Used to make damn sure they were well out of there before I fired up.

Didnt feel like vodka powered Ivan and his 76 lurking somewhere behind me.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

While working as a coordinator for crews I offered a former Soviet crew who were due to leave after lunch a choice of soft drinks with their burgers. They requested beer and informed me that beer is regarded as a soft drink where they come from. They got Fanta.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

V1...Ooops - an interesting post with some very valid, relevant and pertinent points which you make. I agree with a lot of what you said and give you full credit for the comprehensive outlay and articulation of your thoughts.

And yes I do agree that there are 2 tracks to accident posts, namely
1) the condolences and tributes
2) Questions pertaining to the contributing factors.

May I reitterate that I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with the questions being asked or posed and the need to learn from the answers found, in order to avoid future accidents and mishaps.

My gripe however is the way in which you have addressed your posts. As you didn't know the crew, this is a far less sensitive issue for you and the need to learn the facts is obviously your priority. In addition to this, I am assuming that you haven't worked for either organisation and are basing your posts on hearsay and not on what you have personally experienced. I am also assuming that you haven't experienced the emotional turmoil which goes with being an employee (either pilot or management) of an organisation which has experienced this type of event.

We are all aware that there have been previous incidents/accidents for both these companies, however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.

The employees and management of both AirServ and CemAir, as well as the friends and family of not only the pilots, but also the pax are reading this thread. This must be absolutely devasting for all parties involved including both companies; and not only from the point of view that they have lost close friends, colleagues and co-workers. All I'm asking is that you consider all these people and the toll that this must be taking on them on all levels, especially emotionally and psychologically. Making unjustified allegations and insinuating blame, which either directly or indirectly attack these companies' and their employees moral and ethical principles is unfair.

[south coast]

I put another angle to you Lifes a Beech, I am sure the families of both the crew and pax as you say might be reading this are perhaps now asking themselves just how professional the operation is that their loved ones worked for.

As you say, you would think after an operator experienced this terrible kind of accident they would implement such operating procedures to greatly reduce the chance of it ever happening again.

As Nickerbal listed earlier(post 61), AirServs poor record:

1X C210 go down in Uganda
1X B200 have a gear failure = 100% mechanics error in West Africa.
IX Heli Pilot shot & killed in Afghanistan
1X Caravan totalled in Mozambique
1X Otter totalled in DRC
1X Heli side swipe a mountain in Afghanistan

Does that record sound like a company who have learnt from the past.


Life...also said this,

'however if you think about it from a human nature perspective, do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening? I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once.'

Do you think your statement above applies to AirServ?

[Lifes-a-Beech]

South Coast - as I don't work for AirServ I cannot in all honesty answer that question accurately.

However there were two parts to my statement, firstly that "I don't think any person or organisation would ever want something like this to happen once, let alone more than once." - this I do think applies to anyone and everyone, including those at AirServ.

Secondly "do you not think that the parties involved have taken every opportunity to learn from previous mistakes and implemented precautionary measures to prevent accidents from happening?" in light of the above statement which as I've said I think does apply to AirServ, I would go with yes.

If you really want to get in to the nitty gritty, you would need to to look at the number of incidents which have occured as a percentage of the number of flights that are done, over a specific period of time, per aeroplane type. You could then examine, analyse and extrapolate the trends, causes, effects, fatalities etc. in relation to the fleet size, pilot hours, schedules etc. which would give you a far more accurate understanding of what actually is happening with in the organisation. Simply stating the number of accidents which have occured on what planes and viewing these in isolation doesn't mean much.

[Goffel]

Getting back to the basics of this post.

This report that I was privvy to is second hand and I cannot varify the facts, but take it to be in line with what happened.

The a/c was approx 4000 feet below what they were supposed to be when they struck the side of the mountain.

There were supposed to be at 13000 feet and the accident happened at 9000 feet.(give or take a couple of feet).

Also the a/c was in a nose high position when it hit the side of the mountain, indicating that the crew realised that something was amiss and tried to power out of the situation.

The point of impact was approximately 280 meters, from the summit.

The wreckage was strewn accross a large area indicating that initialy they were in the desent before the impact.

It was 8nm from the threshold on the opposite side of the GPS approach path
indicating that they were desending on their own accord.

As they had communicated with the tower 7 mins prior to impact does not suggest that there was any emergency.

(As I said, this was conveyed to me from a witness at the scene).

Lastly, and more disgustingly, to the SACAA inspector that shouted with a grinning smirk on his face to a work collegue in an office full of people,

"Ay, xxxx, I see your mate from CEM Air has killed another 19 people".

You should not only be fired from CAA but should learn that your stupid comments are not only hurtful, but very much inflamatory and could, (should), land you in court with a very big lawsuit.

You are not only a disgrace to the SACAA, but to humanity as well.

Goffel. (embarrassed to say I work with this creature).

[Pitch&Fan]

I'd really like to know who the CAA person is who made this stupid comment.

[WhinerLiner]

Yip, that is about right for GB. He is a revolting piece of work. He is vindictive, dishonest and filled with hate.

Since he doesn’t even know how many people were on board we can assume he wasted no time in gleaning the facts before showing his pleasure at the occurrence of this tragedy.


I hope somebody someday manages to explain to him what a despicable comment that was because he is far too thick to work it out on his own.

What a f#@khead.:yuk:

[FatFlaps]

Well coming from GB are we actually surprised - I mean the man barely has 2 braincells to rub together and at that, they generally can't even find each other to make a connection. Most people who are as mentally challenged as him can fall back on their personality or looks, but sadly for him, he's lacking in both those departments, which pretty much equates to him being an complete oxygen thief.

If the SACAA don't act appropriately and take this vile and loathsome man to task on his insulting, slanderous, derogatory and offensive comment, I sincerely hope that CemAir sues his @rse from here to eternity for defamation and anything else which could be thrown in for good measure.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

This is exactly what i've been talking about...comments like this idiot has made are not called for and really serve no purpose, apart from inflicting more pain. I have no idea who this moron is but i agree with FatFlaps, slap him with a law suit

[Propellerpilot]

Quote 126.3 :
Luckily the crew executed a safe forced landing on a road. It was an aircraft from cemair! (faulty fuel guage) we will never know what was the real problem, maybe the weather have nothing to do with the crash!!! My thaughts are with all of your friends and family.
Yesterday 20:13

So you say it is CemAir's fault the crew landed the Aircraft on the road near Windhoek? You my mate have absolutly no idea what you are talking about. If you know anything about a 1900, there are several indications and independant low fuel warning systems. Last but most crucial, even if all of these should fail, you should have at least an estimate, when your 30min final reserve is due to declare an emergency unless you don't have an idea, how much fuel you carried in the first place. It is a thing called fuel monitoring based on time and situational awareness and weather awareness.

Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.

[RICCARDOVOLANTE]

It is a thing called fuel monitoring based on time and situational awareness and weather awareness.

Stop blaming the operator, if you don't have the facts. A lot of useful and constructive stuff has been posted here already, let us keep the discussion at an adult level please.

Right and who is the fault of not giving the propre training to the crew?
The operators

[WhinerLiner]

Ok so now we need to teach crews that running out of fuel is a bad idea. Fair enough.

Tomorrows lesson can be "the dangers of slaming your fingers in the door":ugh:

Anyhow, the operator was Bayair for whom both the superstars worked.

[Propellerpilot]

Riccardo - in all respect: the aircraft that landed on the road at FYWH was operated by BayAir and there was nobody from CemAir on the aircraft. CemAir had leased their aircraft to BayAir. So therefor BayAir is responsible to train their crew in this case. Maintenance was done on the aircraft by Aviation Center in Windhoek, so if there were snags (and by the way these do occur sometimes on any aircraft flying) these would have been in the Hands of that AMO during the lease. What guys are doing here, is blaming CemAir for an aircraft going down, just because it happens to belong to them and forget everybody else in the chain.

The aircraft that went down in Sudan was also Cemair's, however it was also dry leases and operated by foreign crew. If fuel contamination or sabotage was the cause, how can it be CemAir's fault ?

The accident that this thread is about, is the first unfortunate accident that involved CemAir's own crew and it happend to be one of their most experienced senior captains and copilots. The reasons for this are unknown at this time.

[Goffel]

Actually it was G.K who made the loathsome comment....(ex speed - cop)....but GB also had something to say.

I still have to work in the same building as the loathsome person.

The irony of the whole thing,is, that most of his collegues have come forward and said that they will be quite happy to be a witness at any hearing, should there be one.

Rest assured, if something is not done about it, I have no qualms about knocking on the Commissioners door even if it means me packing my bags afterwards.

What this loathsome person (G.K), does not realise,is that I can still get a job in the industry flying....he most certainly wont be that lucky and will have to rely on others to finance him.

Who is going to employ someone that has flown for and left most companies around and who has failed both aircraft conversions that CAA have sent him on...(737-800 + EMB 145).

I have never had such a bad taste over a distastefull comment as G.K has left in my mouth.

I hope he never has to go thru the hurt that others are going thru now even with his comment.

Goffel...(still hanging my head in shame to be associated with this creature).

[CJ750]

Maybe GK (was he not fired from SAA years ago) should stick to making TV ads for the Automobile Association and GB should have stayed in the SAP or was he not wanted there either.

[Apollo20]

Gentlemen,
After reading all 9 pages of interesting comments from you all on this, lets try apply the following evolutionary steps on a progressive level without emotions and personal vendettas and lets all work together to try avoid any future potential CFIT or MIDAIR (God forbid):

Let's take an "imaginary" flip into Africa (wherever you prefer) and lets switch a perfect sunny day, CAVOK, and within 30minutes it turns IMC, thunderstorms, turbulence AND you are in the descend into some non VOR/ILS strip and you know you have to land (for whatever reason), a/c below you at the aerodrome, no SSR, "broken" english from the Tower, AND finally, some high rise "rocks" hiding somewhere in the clouds.......

Now, your CRM takes effect, all your experience, your bravado and you know you are doing everything correct and you are now really working that seat of yours to get to the "numbers" on the runway... are you going to make it....??.....possibly not.... we are all humans and we do and always will make mistakes, BUT what can we do or use to assist us to reduce the risk we face:

- Friends, lets face it, EGPWS at that point in time is all that will assist you. Let's not kid ourselves..... to those of you that say no, good luck! To those that pause and think, let me explain further, EGPWS has saved many lives before (irrepective of crews reporting an event or not), I believe there are a few of you that have had the "privelage" to a "caution terrain" from a EGPWS when you did not expect it..... ?
- GWPS: be very careful as there are still many a/c flying today with "old" GPWS systems that WILL NOT AND WILL NEVER IN THE FUTURE give you predictive terrain warning as these systems DO NOT have internal databases that applies "forward looking" concepts such as EGPWS will.

-Is it possible that the operator of this fatal accident did not have EGPWS onboard, yes, it is possible and was he legally required to carry such system, no, he was not as EGPWS has not yet been mandated for ZS aircraft. Then the operator/owner cannot be blamed for this as if the legal requirement did not specify this, then let's not blame ANYONE or ANYBODY and lets rather ask, when can we fly in our aircraft with these systems fitted. Friends, EGPWS fitments is a small price to pay compared to the loss we have witnessed here again.

- Now, how many of you can say that " I have EGPWS with terrain display fitted in my a/c"..... ? If some of you are unfortunate enough to say NO, next time you get in your "office" think of of the crews that have sacrificed their lives for what.... so we can keep on tempting fate..... no boys and girls, lets get our aircraft owners, CAA's in Africa all to get these little systems onboard which becomes your next best friend besides your captain or co-pilot... In respect for this recent crew (AND pax), that lovely red a/c that found itself next to the rocks in George a few years ago (its crew AND pax), and all other still to come (whom will it be...anybody in this forum...) I hope not and although it is sad to read some strong ignorant and narrowminded comments about operators and all kinds of trivial horsepucky that had nothing to do with this accident, let's rather see who is NOT goind to die next of a possible CFIT. Let's evolve and be proactive. We pilots are suppose to be intellectually evolved, let's use it!!

To the crew of ZS-OLD, we thank you for your bravery and rest in peace friends. You were both excellent pilots and I hope we can use your sacrifice to good use and turn it into something we shall all be thankful and respectful for in the future....

Apollo 20

[south coast]

Apollo, I am afraid I dont agree with your post at all.

You said,

'Now, your CRM takes effect, all your experience, your bravado and you know you are doing everything correct and you are now really working that seat of yours to get to the "numbers" on the runway...'

Unfortunately, your statement is not correct, descending below the grid mora or MSA without visual contact with the ground is not correct, attempting an approach which you are not trained for or the plane is not equipped to do is not correct, and if the GPS approach was not being attempted then it was left to a Jungle Jepp approach is also not correct.

I dont know what happened in this particular case, but we have to accept the limited facts available to us.



1. Bad weather
2. Flight obviously below the grid mora /msa
3. Mountainous terrain below
4. The outcome.

The biggest unanswered question still remains, 'why not divert?'

That for me is the biggest mystery.

Your statement, ' and you know you have to land (for whatever reason)' is probably the most worrying and dangerous statement of all, because there should always be options, but at some point our decisions leave us with no options, and perhaps I have been lucky, but I dont think so, but I have never HAD to land with no other option like you say and I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of us haven't either.

[beckers]

If I recall correctly I don't think that ZS-OLD had GPWS on board.

I know of only 1 1900 in SA that has EGPWS.

As far as I know in SA if GPWS is installed onboard then it must be servicable. If the 1900 arrives without it installed I don't think there is a requirement in SA to install it.

Secondly EGPWS relies on a Database of airfields. Many of the airfields operated into in Africa are not in the database. Hence the aircraft have to operate into some of these fields with terrain inhibit on to avoid nuisance warnings.

Thirdly if ZS-OLD had the gear down the only warnings they may have got if GPWS was installed would have been "Sink Rate" or "Too Low Flap".

Sadly if a 1900 is operating in that area GPWS should be a serious must have. But then comes commercial pressures to get the first available aircraft out on the contract asap etc etc

[chuks]

We have EGPWS but operate to strips not in the database, when it ends up inhibited just when you might need it most!

There is no system available or dreamt of that can prevent this sort of accident, in my opinion.

Anyone else remember the story about "Shut up, Gringo!"? Some Spanish-speaking airliner crew called their GPWS "Gringo" because the warnings came in English. So one day it was saying, "Pull UP! Pull UP!" with the crew saying, "Shut up, Gringo!" until the CVR recording suddenly stopped with the sound of an impact!

Given that I am still wasting oxygen I haven't been quite where this accident crew ended up but I have been very, very close, as have many of us who fly in Africa. There's not much point to getting into a huge bitch-fest trying to second-guess or else defend the crew when a CFIT is pretty obviously some sort of big but unrepeatable mistake. Why not just take this as a strong hint to think, "Well, if it happened to those guys it could happen to me. Is there something in the way I operate that I might need to sit down and think about?"

Just off the top of my head I can think of three CFITs with people I knew personally. Two of them now get their mail delivered by groundhogs.

The third guy scattered a Cessna 441 across a maize field and lived to tell the tale. I flew with him for a while post-accident trying to get him back up to speed but he was always kind of a nervous pilot...

[I.R.PIRATE]

Who needs EGPWS when you have grid moras?

[dark horse]

Goffel, I also work for the CAA. Although we do not always agree with our fellow colleagues, you should not be mud slinging them on pprune. You yourself are an embarrassment to the CAA. If you think you are so highly sought after in the industry, maybe you should pack your bags and leave. We won't miss you.....

[WhinerLiner]

Ok, so as a man of truth and integrity you chose to take issue with him on pprune yourself. Um...is it just me or is there an irony here? Fool!

[Apollo20]

Gents
I value all your inputs on the EGPWS/CFIT issues here, but I need to clarify something that some of us do get confused when activating the TERR INHBT function on EGPWS systems.
1) yes, the EGPWS is in demand of the internal database which includes runways of a certain lenght and longer. I agree, many African strips are not in these databases at all, BUT it does not reduce the majority of the effective use of EGPWS. Terrain inhibit should only be activated when approaching a strip not recognised in the database, where it shall inhibit certain "modes" such as glideslope warnings, BUT still renders it usefull for altitude call outs (incl minimums), if it doesn't there is a problem with the sytem that needs investigation.
2) Quite a few CFIT events in Africa (excl the russian a/c), occured in the mountains and not on long final, etc. , where as the saying goes "mountains dont' move" so your EGPWS with it's internal TERRAIN database will be your "next best friend" when you cannot see those rocks! Offcourse, there is no point in activating TERR INHBT well before you know you are establised on final (below 1000ft AGL), because if you "klap the rocks" and you had EGPWS fitted, the 1st thing I would look for (if I was an investigator) is to find the TERR INHBT switch...... so be careful when activating that little switch...
3) Chucks, I appreciate your pro approach on your post, and yes I agree that there is no "100% fail safe" system, but EGPWS surely helps. I don't know how many of you have the privelage of flying in a/c that has TERRAIN MAP DISPLAY on their MFD's / EFIS but I believe they do come in quite handy.
4) Ir Pirate, good luck, no offence, but I really hope you can get acqainted with EGPWS. You'll think twice after having flown with it....
5) South Coast, I appreciate and respect your view and although I agree 100% with the divert option, we should still factor for the "what if" there is some reason you couldn't..... your under pressure, would you not agree that EGPWS would be "must have" in such an event...?

Guys, all I am trying to do is share the "human demand" we have to consider for allowing systems to HELP us when we need it, hence, my passion for EGPWS. It's a bit like ACAS II, "lets hope I never get that RA in IMC, but if I do, I will surely react to it!!"

Apollo 20

[south coast]

I think we all agree EGPWS is a good tool, I dont think that is in question.

However, barring catastrophic failure of/to the airframe, I struggle to understand the decision making in going into a field with no published approach that is of use to a non-rnav/gps approach equipped plane, in bad weather and in mountainous terrain.

I think it is just too vague to use the, 'but what if...' scenario.

As I said above, barring catastrophic failure to the airframe, there should always be options available.

Does anyone know any new facts?

[HSInop]

After spending some time pondering about this, there is one thing that is trying to come out in this thread, we all need to stand on our ground before we are put into it :(. Not to say that the crew of ZS-OLD didn't, we can't say anything as to what happend in the cockpit or what led up to the event untill all info is brought to light if there is anything to be brought out. My deepest thoughts go out to those who went west.
More and more companys are looking at pilots as bus drivers and this has to stop. The mind set grows as more and more as flights are successful and you return to your beds to start another flight the next day. While Managment counts the money and get pats on the backs for a job well done. Then the cycle starts all over again. I have had many days where not just myself but other pilots are being told to launch by some one who has not been there or done that, remember we as pilots have all bought the T-shirt and are still wearing it. Do you really want to be buried in it? Grant it that there are pilots that will fly with the mentallity that nothing is going to happen :=. Well things do and this set off everyone into speculating and mud slinging. lets take a back seat look at this.
The managment have to be tought that what we do is inharently dangerous and we are trained as risk and emergency managers. We as pilots have to tell them that there is reasons to not take a flight or not.
It really boils down to how much $$$ can be made using us as the "bus driver". When a bus breaks down, pull to the side of the road and call road service. Everyone can understand what I am talking about and I hope that those that don't check yourself into a mental hospital if you fly.
About those Gwiz equipment that everyone is talking about, when flying the US Vans for ASI there was no TWAS. When in the US all of them are installed and yes they have saved lives including mine. Let alone the TCAS. There are a lot of wonderful tools out there but the owner/operators of them refuse to install them due to cost of product, maintence and God forbid the trainging. Right now with the company I fly with are aircraft are capable of GPS approaches but the companys feels that four or five hours of trianing for use is too much to spend:ouch:.
If you all want to see the cool things that are coming out and of course are high in the $$$ range but would most likely keeps us safe and alive check out YouTube - Night Landing in Aspen Colorado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8NtRpDpKr4). This little guy can not only see in the dark but also threw the clouds. In Congo, a must. But lets see how long it would take.
V1...Ooops. I have to hand it to you that your words of wisdom is something that we need to find ourselves and practice it and fine tune it to bring us back to our familys.
My final thought, lets not be seen as bus drivers but as professional pilots who know when to launch and when to sit together. When devided we fall, together we stand. Best wishes and best of luck to all the bros I miss in the deep dark DRC.

HSIop

[I.R.PIRATE]

Apollo, with all due respect, what I am getting at, is that if this accident was purely a case of CFIT (we haven't quite got to the bottom of it all be honest) then the major errors in judgement took place well before the moment of impact. Something as simple as a grid mora / msa should still stand as the basic sacrosanct limitation of your descent.

That said, I too have decended below MSA, due to ops pressures etc ( young dumb and...) , and the last time I ever did that, I popped out of the cloud in a valley, with hilltops hidden in the clouds all around me. I was lucky - thats all.

I have since flown with EGPWS quite regularly, and of course understand its merits and place in the modern cockpit. However, my point is that millions of flights before the days of EGPWS could be concluded safely, with the use of simple tools, such as MSA and MORAs. But thats at the most simplistic level of viewing this accident.

[Coleman Myers]

Has the missing engine and wing section been located yet ?.

[MungoP]

Coleman Myers Missing wing engine section
Has the missing engine and wing section been located yet ?.

I must have missed that one... wasn't aware that this was the case...
If the loss of the a/c was a result of in-flight break up due to inadvertant entry into convective weather the discussion of CFIT and staying above the published MSA becomes somewhat redundant. Without wishing to pre-empt any findings by the investigators it would not be an outrageous surmise given the weather in the area at the time to consider that the poor guys got trapped in an area of T/storms that proved impossible to survive. And for those out there that consider weather radar to be a guarantee of avoiding storm cells... it isn't... and it can be extremely difficult to interpret the display accurately in mountainous terrain..

[LittleMo]

I stand to be crrected here but wasn't ZS-OLD the ex Rossair machine that got the spar bent/damaged by the boys rolling it on the way back from contract somewhere?

[Sir Osis of the river]

Little Mo,

I never heard about that one. Tell us more. It might be relevant

[Vref +10]

Check Youtube B1900

[WhinerLiner]

Didn't Rossair have a Twotter Reg ZS-OLD?

[CALCULATOR]

Affirm, we used to fly a Twin Otter in the Sreamline days owned by Sreamline ZS-OLD.
Was then sold to Ross Air.

[B747-800]

Who needs EGWPS if you fly like this? It calls for an accident to happen!

YouTube - Beech 1900 in Africa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbzwqIxt1q8)

[Der absolute Hammer]

Beech aerodynamic design changes now. They use a lot of rivets in the nose cone, not very clean is it?

[Propellerpilot]

YouTube - Don't try this at home (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-bFlJ771pg)

wonder if that one is actually a fake ?

I can't believe people would actually have the guts to do this... looks like they have not done this for the first time.

If it was the airframe that got our buddies down - then it was just a question of time unless detected in an airframe inspection.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Point was....is that a 1900?
Very crude nose cone, not, I think, the same as B200?

[Lifes-a-Beech]

If you watch on the fly by, when you get the side view of the plane, its too short to be a B1900, add to that the crude nose cone...I'm thinking not - my vote goes to a B200

[Coleman Myers]

Mungo, according to my employer who spoke with an AirServ engineer, there is a wing and engine unaccounted for ?. If this is the case, could it not indicate that the engine was at max power when the wing separated, enabling it to travel some considerable distance from the hull's point of impact ?. How did the aircraft strike the terrain ?. I think there are so many questions that need to be explored further.

[MungoP]

We'll need to wait and see where the missing bits are found.. if they're ever found.

[Goffel]

Hi Coleman and others.
Nothing is missing....no matter what you get told.

Goffel.

[Coleman Myers]

Goffel,

Thanks for the update. Any info on how the aircraft actually struck the terrain. I am hearing the belly took most of the impact, but that the tail struck first. If this is at all true, is it possible they were at max power in a climb configuration ?. (i.e. caught in a very severe down draft).

[ARENDIII]

Yup-I agree,
However I say that we only have ourselves to blame.
When the weather is not right-do not go!
When someone says we must go now-do not go!
When you have reservations about a/c serviceability-do not go!
If in doubt about the succesful completion of the flight-do not go!
Why am I paid so much(sic)? To know when to say NO! NO! NO!
I am not paid to fly-I rather think that I am paid to KNOW when not to fly. Anyone can fly, it's being able to say NO! that sets the men apart from the boys. That way the company gets to keep their crew,pax and lo and behold "THE AIRPLANE!!!"
Fly safely people, you have all worked and continue to work extremely hard for your licence-don't throw it all away to try and please some desk jockey.
Happy and SAFE flying to all,
ArendIII.:)

[Hot Shots]

ARENDIII, you said it!!!!! I couldn't agree more! I think Capt's and F/O's need to be more aware when to say NO, regardless of who they work for.

:ok: Great post :D :D

[V1... Ooops]

Any new information? Several months have now passed.

[Propellerpilot]

Nope - no news.

[SafeTBee]

NTSB have released a preliminary report - no major updates, except that fire is mentioned.

[SafeTBee]

CFIT seems to have been eliminated as a causal factor.

[V1... Ooops]

Here is the URL to the American NTSB factual report: click here (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081004X12026&key=1).

[MungoP]

Well whoever Dennis Jones is I don't envy him his task of working with the 'Ministry of Transport' of the DRC :/

[reinbobber]

where did you find that CFIT was eliminated as a causal factor?

[JohanKnoetze]

My son Rudi Knoetze was killed in an airplane crash in the Democratic Republic of the Congo on the 1st September 2008. They were flying humanitarian aiders. The incident was covered in several newspapers and on radio in South Africa. I waited three days for the forces to remove his body from the mountain. I waited another week for his body to arrive in South Africa. The information received was that the whether was bad and that the pilots flew into a mountain. This aircraft is operated by two pilots and they flew a leg at a time. By this I mean that my son, who was also a captain on this aircraft (both pilots were captains), flew from Goma to Kisangani. At the time of the accident the other pilot (Ronnie) flew from Kisangani to Bukavu and 15km before the airport, this accident occurred.

Following from this, I have done the following:

Obtained photos regarding the accident and studied them. I must also mention that I am not an aviation expert but, work in the Forensic Department of a large corporate institution, and the photos did not tell the same story.
Appointed an investigator, who was at the scene of the accident to do me a report (His report reflected that there was either an explosion on board or that they were shot down by missile.
Contacted the NTSB (Dennis Jones) in America in order to get clarity on what happened and requested the report on the black box (Flight Data Recorder) – I was told to work through the official channels and to request the South African Embassy to get the information from the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
I contacted the United Nations, as 15 passengers were also killed, most of them being UN soldiers – I was told that they are not doing an investigation, which I find to be very strange.
My son was contracted by CEMAIR, a company at Lanseria airport and they then hired the aircraft and crew to Air Serv in America. (Wet Lease) I contacted Air Serv in order to find out if they are conducting an investigation. I was told that they are also not conducting an investigation. This is also very strange to me as they were the operating company within the DRC. I obtained the contract between the Cemair and Air Serv together with the operating certificates.
I contacted Mr. Mamoepa’s office on the 18th May 2009 and asked them for assistance. I forwarded a follow up e-mail on 2nd June 2009 and did not receive any assistance, except for acknowledgment of receipt (See e-mails below) I e-mailed his office again on the 6th July 2009 and again got conformation that the South African Embassy in Kinshasa requested the information. (See e-mail below) I have again forwarded e-mails on 7th and 8th September, but to no avail.
I established that the aircraft voice cockpit recorder was removed and noticed from the photos that it was blanked off. However, I was told by Cemair that it was destroyed during the accident.
I visited Civil Aviation South Africa and asked them why they did not get involve. I was told that it was not worthwhile to investigate, as all the passengers on board were dead and that it was not worthwhile to send anybody from there authority to do an investigation. It was also mentioned to me that charity begins at home at that a number of reports were outstanding. After begging them to get me the necessary information, they drew up a letter, which I had translated to French, and they forward this letter to the DRC, requesting information. They also promised me that if the information is not forthcoming, that they would send a representative to the DRC to get the information. This was only empty promises, as they promised to visit the DRC during July, again during September, but this never materializes. I find it very strange that they did not get involve from the beginning and is still reluctant to get involve 10 months later.
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']I appointed a second investigator to investigate the circumstances. A lot of facts were established by him, but he cannot conclude his investigation without the co-ordinates, the weather conditions (which I might receive at a cost) and most importantly the report/information on the flight data recorder.
To conclude and in view of all the facts above, I am desperate to get the report on the black box (flight data recorder information) and the report from the DRC, and will not be able to get closure on my sons death unless I know what happened. My frustration is that my son has been dead for more than a year and I cannot get the information needed. Although I followed all the official channels I also do not get any assistance from Civil Aviation South Africa, nor from the South African Embassy. I have attached some of the e-mails and will forward you the report issued by the investigator (first one) appointed by me.

Any Suggestions?????

Johan Knoetze

[greenno]

First of all give you the pesame by the death of your son. I'm sorry.

About you problem I can't help you. I was in Congo flying in 2007 and DRC civil aviation can't do a investigation as a normal country.

Bukavu is a dangerous airport I was flying in Bravo Air Congo and in two months Bravo had 3 minor incidents and one peasant killed.

Also Bukavu is in a troubled area, "men of the war" want to dominate mineral traffic so "why not think that was shut down?

Is very easy recognize a UN airplane, all white with big black letter "UN".

I can't undertand that no body want to discover what happened. Conspiration? a CVR distroyed? Beech as manufacturer does'nt want discover what happened, and the airline? Very extrange.

Good Luck, I hope you can discover the true in memory of your son.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Why would anyone waste an expensive asset like a MANPAD on a low value target like a Papa Charlie full of nobodies?


Supposition by unqualified people will merely lead to confusion. Just looking at pictures will not tell you if explosive residue is present which is about the only really conclusive way of determining if an IED or a MANPAD was used. Did your investigator have wreckage analysed by a reputable lab for these traces?


Try Occam's Razor on this one.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Solid Rust Twotter,

I realy do not believe what the first investigitor quoted in his report. It is impossible to get a sample of the wreck, as the Congo wont let me visit this area, apparently it is a war stricken areas.

I do however believe that it was not a pilot error, as these two pilots, one being my son knew this area and were very responisble people. Something went wrong and I am trying to find out what? My son mentioned on facebook that thet are struggeling with the one engine.

The remarks of the pilots being in-experience or taking chances is not whortwile reading. All I can say is that whoever makes these remarks must be glad that it was not them in the cockpit. As mentioned, I spend approximately 150 hours in the cockpits of some of the aircraft with my son.

Something went wrong and it is not easy to find out. I had some correspondance from one of the pilots that flew with my son in the DRC stating that the Voice Cocpit Recorder was removed as it was faulty and that the black box revealed very little information. Just show you that somebody got this information, but it seems impossible for me to get it.

Regards,

Johan

[Whenwe]

Hi Johan,
Have sent you a PM, hope it helps

[WDaron]

I ran into some Air Serv pilots in Entebbe recently. From what they said, it is quite grim, as they have lost contracts in a lot of countries including all of Congo and Afghanistan. The company has a lot of problems they're dealing with and it is quite possible that they will fail. Apparently they have five airplanes sitting on the ground in the hangar in Entebbe that are costing a mint. Gook oaks, but they seemed quite frustrated with high level management.

[V1... Ooops]

Why would anyone waste an expensive asset like a MANPAD on a low value target like a Papa Charlie full of nobodies?

I can't answer that question in the context of the B1900 accident in the Congo, nor do I want to suggest that is a cause of the B1900 accident, however, I have been hit with a MANPAD (surface to air missile) whilst flying a Twin Otter in war relief, and I doubt very much if the person who fired it was either aware of the cost of the missile, or the slightest bit concerned about the cost of the missile.

Michael

[V1... Ooops]

...I do however believe that it was not a pilot error, as these two pilots, one being my son knew this area and were very responisble people. Something went wrong and I am trying to find out what?

Mr. Knoetze:

First of all, please accept my most sincere condolances on the loss of your son.

I don't know what the cause of the B1900 accident was. It could have been the result of a human error, or a serious weather problem, or a mechanical failure.

Skilled pilots - no matter how careful they are - can and do make errors, and even today, pilot errors are the most common cause of aviation accidents and incidents. Do keep in mind that there were two crewmembers on duty in the aircraft, and it is possible that your son was not the "Pilot Flying" on that particular flight. It is normal practice for the two crewmembers to alternate duties from flight to flight, with one crewmember actually handling the aircraft (the "Flying Pilot"), and the other crewmember looking after radio communication and other duties (the "Pilot Not Flying").

I hope this thought gives you some comfort.

Michael

[Golf Oscar]

Hallo Johan,

My sincere condolences, even a year later, it is always a terrible loss!!

Due to various reasons , Governments, Companies and some individuals would prefer not to find out the truth.

If I could suggest, normally the most important people who try and establish what happened will be the insurance company who did the insurance of the aircraft.

The reason is: they are the people who have to settle all the insurance claims, that might arrise from an accident. Insurance companies investigate independedly, and some investigators are very good.
My experience with these companies are that they normally investigate all avenues before they make a payment. ( They have there reasons)

Try and establish whith which insurance company the aircraft was insured, who was the investigator, and ask for assistance.

I trust this might help you.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate each and every response. I fully agree that pilots do make mistakes, as we are all human. I also understand that altough the one pilot is flying the plane, they work together as a team. I am not blaming any one of them(the two pilots) or trying to say that it was not my sons fault. My fustration however, is that I cannot get the results on the black box. Surely this will tell the story. By analysing this report, according to my limited knowledge, one would be able to see if there was a steady decent and then the impact, which would indicate that it could be a pilots error, or alternatively that they lost altitude, which could indicated that there was a problem. This is all I need to finally accept what happened. We know that there was no voice cockpit recorder, therefore we do not know what was said in the cockpit.

Why is it so difficult to get the report on the black box?. According to the chief pilot - Air Serv, the black box (data recorder) was send to the USA to be analysised. The results/report was given to the DRC during Jan/Feb 2009. Civil Aviation SA did not do an investigation, and promised to get this info from the Congo. When requesting the NTSB to assist, I was also told by Dennis Jones (NTSB), to request this information via the Sout African Embassy, which I did. Needless to say I am still awaining any information. However, I am waiting patiently for the last five months.

Regards,


Johan

[V1... Ooops]

Mr. Knoetze:

I am quite perplexed about why the South African civil aviation regulator cannot provide you with the information you are seeking - that being the record of the last moments of the flight that has been recovered from the flight data recorder.

Under ICAO Annex 13, which governs aircraft accident investigations, the state of registry of the aircraft has the right to participate in an aircraft accident investigation that involves an aircraft on its register. Normally, the state in which the accident takes place will take the leadership role in such an investigation, but it is not unheard of for another interested party - such as the state of registration of the aircraft involved - to offer to take the leadership role, especially if the country in which the accident occurs has limited resources or limited expertise.

I made several posts on page 4 (http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/341537-b1900-missing-congo-4.html) of this discussion that specifically addressed the legal and moral responsibility of the South African CAA in this accident. Like you, I am very disheartened to see that the South African CAA does not appear to be doing everything they can to bring full transparency to this investigation, and to learn lessons from it that can be used to prevent similar accidents in the future.

Based on what we have seen so far, it appears that the South African CAA takes an "out of sight, out of mind" approach to their responsibilities to provide operational supervision and oversight to aircraft registered in South Africa when those aircraft are operating abroad.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

FDR on a 1900? Didn't know they had them. Thought it was just CVR.:confused:

[MungoP]

Yes.. they do carry both FDR and CVR located in aft cargo section close to top right corner of cargo door.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Ah, OK. Thanks for that. Has the data been analysed yet? Perhaps they're just waiting for a report.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the info. Yes, according to information received and as stated in my correspondance the data has been analysed. However, it is more than a mission to get it. I was also told not to expect any report to be issued by the DRC.

Johan

[fly1981]

Hi,
I used to fly the route that they crashed on almost 5 days a week for the united nations. The weather on that route could very possibly be the worst weather you will experience in Africa(having flown west central south and north africa) The weather around Bukarvu is extremely bad(and world renowned for it), and scared the hell out of me!!!!down drafts over the top of those mountains are very common, and alot of them would be strong enough to put any aircraft flying fairly low over the top into the terrain below. I didnt know your son, but i new the other pilot, and know his flying history, and i have no doubt in my mind that they were experienced enough to be doing the type of flying they were doing, I know the contracts in that area quiet well, and the requirements to fly one of those aircraft are extremely steep......I really am sorry about what happened to your son, and hope you do get to the bottom of it....having seen where the a/c crashed and the position of the wreckage, i am willing to bet a severe down draft played a roll in it, and if as you said earlier they were having issues with one of the engines.......this could make a recoverable attitude, impossible to get out of! Good luck, the truth will surface eventually!

[KRONOS]

The aircraft hit the ridge at around 9800', the MSA is 13200'-14200' in the direction they were comming from, impact was more than 3000' below MSA, and that is a fact.

If it broke up in the air, explosion on board or hit my a MANPAD, doing in the vicinity of 150-200 kts, the wreckage would have been strewn over a much larger area not so? if there was a downdraft severe enough to let a 1900 lose a 1000', nevermind 3000' ,there would have been evidence on the ground, a severe microburst leaves a lot of tell tale signs.

I am no expert but witnessed the impala that lost a wing at Lanseria years ago, and that wreckage was spread well over 2 km.

I think the FDR will tell , but it might not be what you want to hear.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Kronos,

Thank you for the information. I do not know where you get your facts from, as you stated that this is a fact. It is not about what I want to hear, but about the facts. If you have the facts, please supply me with your e-mail address, in order to communicate with you. It seems like you are the person I was looking for, as you have the FACTs. Dont know where you got it from, however, I am looking forward to see if you would be brave enough to send me a private message.

Regards,

Johan

[Fuzzy Lager]

Sadly, the MSA is a fact, it can be read off the chart. Equally the altitude of impact is a fact and has been measured at the value stated. The diffence between them is a simple calculation.

The aircraft was in contact with Bukavu and made no indication of any distress. There is in fact no indication of any kind of aircraft failure, in any of the evidence.

As difficult as this may be you may have to accept that the overwhelming body of evidence points to Controlled Flight into Terrain. It is unlikely that any more is going to be done to discover anymore, the DRC just isn't that kind of place.

May your son rest in peace.

[V1... Ooops]

Fuzzy:

I think that Mr. Knoetze's point is that he would like to be able to see some evidence of what exactly happened. This is something that we usually take for granted when aircraft accidents occur- in other words, we take for granted that there will be a proper investigation and that a report of factual findings will be released.

In this particular case, the state in which the accident occurred does not have the resources or the expertise to carry out an investigation, and the two other involved states (South Africa, the state of registry, and the United States of America, the state of the operator of the aircraft) appear to have no desire to investigate the accident.

The NTSB of the USA has provided technical assistance in the form of extracting the data from the FDR. As is right and proper under ICAO Annex 13, they have provided this data to the DRC (state where the accident occurred). Mr. Knoetze has asked South Africa to request this transcript from the DRC, and it appears that South Africa has not yet requested this transcript, or, has not elected to share the information that it reveals with him.

The only way that anyone can determine the cause of this accident with any level of confidence would be to look at the FDR transcript. The record of the aircraft's speed, heading, and rate of descent during the last few minutes of flight would be sufficient to determine if the aircraft hit the ground in controlled flight, or suffered an airframe abnormality of some kind that lead to a descent below MOCA, or suffered a catastrophic failure of one kind or another. Absent this information, everything else is just speculation.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Michael,


Thank you very much for your response. This is exactly what I want. I could not have explained it better than you have put it in your response. I am not denying that this could be a pilot error. All I am saying is - give me the black box information, or show it to me and I will accept the outcome. The only thing that I want, in order to get closure, is the facts. No more communication or questions after this. However, none of the authorities are prepared to help me to obtain the FDR information. The people can explain how the FDR works, calculations etc, hoever show me the info and I will except. Until then, I will keep asking questions.

Regards,

Johan

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Fuzzy Lager,

I accept what you are saying. However, have you had sight of the FDR report/analysis? You sound very confident, however, without haveing sight of this, it will remain rumours.

Regards,

Johan

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi,

Very strange how quite some people go quite when you put them on the spot.

Johan

[Goffel]

Hi Johan.
I have sent you my contact number

Goffel

[aime]

Hello fellow pilots,

I flew for Air Serv in the DRC. Safety was not their number one priority. They said it was but it was not.

Their "Image" was their obsession. We can see today where that obsession lead them. CEO's coming and going, crashes, law suits, loss of credibility etc.

The big problem is that - ok it's not politically correct but this is true -
female program directors, country managers... at Air Serv were SO idolized by a couple of womanizers at HQ that they were given carte blanche to call the shots. Often it meant arguing with pilots about aviation safety of which they knew virtually nothing!!

I feel that the Bukavu accident could have been avoided if Air Serv had hired better trained people who would let pilots make all decisions pertaining to the flights from start to finish.

My deepest sympathy to the families of the victims.

[aime]

Hello Sir,

I sent a letter to the Virginia FAA Flight Standard District Office in 2003 outlining some of the working conditions at Air Serv, Goma.
Air Serv was also sent a copy.


Perhaps you should get in touch with them and get a copy.

Aime

[JohanKnoetze]

Thank you Aime.

[aime]

You are welcome.

Here is the FSDO link: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/dca/

There should be a record of it. Probably Air Serv has a copy too.

Keep me posted.

[JohanKnoetze]

Hi Aime,

Sorry for the late reply. I am still busy with the investigation and will keep you posted. I am still trying to get the FDR information. Made contact with a reliable sourse to get it for me in the Congo.

Thanks for the info.

Johan

[Malagant]

Aime,

I agree with you about the management of Air Serve, I worked in Amman and the country director there was a idiot and so was a certain female manager, if you didn`t kiss old Timmermans behind you were sure to not come back to Amman! The chief pilot Kurt knew well that there was problems in Amman and he just sat back and let it go on!

[JohanKnoetze]

Just to let you know, I am still awaiting assistance from CAA SA and the South African Embassy to get a transcript of the Data Flight Recorder. I was promised to get it shortly. Unfortunately I do not know how long the term shortly is, as it is 16 months later and I am still waiting.

Regards,

Johan