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View Full Version : Stewardess in the pilot's seat: Flying High on Jetstar


altocu
2nd Sep 2008, 04:18
From Crikey.com.au



Why is a flight attendant sitting in the captainís seat of a Jetstar A330 in level flight at around 250 knots airspeed?

And who else was on the flight deck when the first officer posed in the same seat after or before the 305-passenger jet appears to have slightly changed its heading?

CASA says it doesnít act on anonymous photographs.

We obscured the faces of the flight attendant and first officer, but Crikey will send CASA the unedited images.

There are enough breaches of air safety regulations implicit in these images to result in criminal prosecutions.

The sender of these images points out that the first officer may well have proper cause to be in the left hand seat in providing relief to the captain, or for training purposes if it wasnít a flight carrying passengers.

However, the air safety regulations only allow appropriately licensed and qualified persons to occupy a control seat while an aircraft is in flight.

The anonymous emailer lists several risks in the situation of the flight attendant in a pilotís seat.

An instruction for a change in heading or altitude by air traffic control may not be acted upon.

She would be incapable of responding to a TCAS or automated collision alert system warning which is triggered when aircraft are converging courses, and depends on the pilots of each flight diving, climbing or changing course according to a computer generated instruction.

In an emergency procedure caused by a cabin depressurisation or an engine fire she would be occupying a seat urgently required by a pilot.

Our informant is critical of the pilot culture at Jetstar and says, "Due to an industrial requirement of keeping costs low promoting pilots in house, the experience, safety culture and compliance with simple regulatory requirements have been neglected.

"Alan Joyce [currently Jetstar CEO pending taking over that role at Qantas] stated some time ago his concerns that bringing in qualified crew would 'pollute the Jetstar culture' . One must wonder exactly what culture he is trying to protect."

Jetstar this morning launched a full inquiry into the matter and has also notified CASA of its inquiries.

Send your tips to [email protected], submit them anonymously here or SMS tips and photos to 0427 TIP OFF.

Teal
2nd Sep 2008, 04:39
Two pics found at the links below:

ImageShack - Hosting :: flightdeck1nm5.jpg (http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flightdeck1nm5.jpg)

ImageShack - Hosting :: flightdeck2vp6.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flightdeck2vp6.jpg)

Jabawocky
2nd Sep 2008, 04:50
Just an observation or two......... could it be that the photo's are not of the same day/flight? Paperwork looks different the PFD's are hard to read but they do not appear to be within in a short time frame, even 15 min, and the sunlight coming through the Port Side is not there with the Hostie.

Could this be a big beat up by someone with a grudge?

If the F/O was the PF and the captain gets up to use the loo..... whats the difference? Mind you..... a Russian airliner became a lawn dart when a kid had a go on the stick:ooh:.

So who was in the right seat..... a Check and Training Capt perhaps? One assumes he was the PF.

Probably a harmless situation with a media beat up!

This thread is bound to take up some pages in the ether!

J

Capt Wally
2nd Sep 2008, 04:55
crying out loud this sort of thing has been going on for years, from lighties to probably the bloody space shuttle! There wouldn't be an airline that hasn't had a breach of this sort of thing in existance. Still 'hijinks' will always be played out whilst there are humans up at the pointy end.
I see no harm in it if a little common sense prevails:ok:


CW

Will964
2nd Sep 2008, 04:58
You'll also notice the FO has the lap strap done up. I don't think you'd bother if you were simply posing for a photo. The hostie on the other hand.....whoops

qantel
2nd Sep 2008, 05:11
And to top it of she's a CSM. They train them. ON YA JETSTAR!

Buster Hyman
2nd Sep 2008, 05:23
Two things I note...

You don't see the Right hand seat, so how do they come to the conclusion that there's nobody there?

Secondly, if that was an A330 inflight, then the other FA would be flat out!!! ;)

porch monkey
2nd Sep 2008, 05:30
As someone else has pointed out. Big deal. Way too many asumptions made in that article. We all know why though. Been happening for [email protected] years. Difference now unfortunately is the internet and the media in general. Moral of the story? Can't trust anyone any more, especially if there are pictures. It's really terribly sad I think.........:{

packrat
2nd Sep 2008, 05:43
On the ground in transit.?.its not clear that the aircraft is even in the air.

SARMC
2nd Sep 2008, 05:45
Does anyone have any evidence that these pictures were not taken in a simulator? I have a deep distrust of Crikey.

HotDog
2nd Sep 2008, 05:50
Who would take any notice of Crikey anyhow? They are as bad as the British tabloids!:yuk:

sthaussiepilot
2nd Sep 2008, 06:22
How does the panels become so much clearer in the photo with the captian?

and also I wouldnt think this is real...

just people attempting to stir up some sh*t

Arctaurus
2nd Sep 2008, 06:44
Do the J* A330's really have the older standby instrumentation as the photos would indicate ?

A Comfy Chair
2nd Sep 2008, 06:55
The photo of the F/O in the left seat means nothing of course.

Doubt its in a sim - the lighting being so bright and the fact they've got sunnies on the table and the sun visor out. On the ground though? Need to see a clearer photo to see if the standby airspeed is actualy showing they're in flight.

A flight attendant occupying a control seat in flight is a breach, and I'm sure there will be some interesting tea and bikkies meetings if this was indeed in flight.

Dixons-son... oh well, keep letting people into the control seats of airliners and you won't be around for long!

Jabawocky
2nd Sep 2008, 07:04
Sunlight suggests its not a sim..... the thrust levers or what ever Aairbus call em look like they are forward:}.

Beer and Popcorn anyone http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0051.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

J http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0016.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-war-smileys.php)

dartman2
2nd Sep 2008, 07:16
The only real problem with this is some moron sent the pic to the media. Now all the unwashed that travel these days will be claiming that they "almost died" as a result!

teresa green
2nd Sep 2008, 07:43
Half his bloody luck, the best I ever got was a three year old, who in her excitement piddled all over me, and I had to wear it in every way until we finally landed, got to the hotel, and I could have a shower. And it was not even my own kid!:{:{

OhSpareMe
2nd Sep 2008, 07:52
Oh yeah, it is inflight.

I recall what happened to a QF 400 Captain about 10 years ago that allowed a teenager to be photographed at the controls. The pictures made it to the front page of the 'Tele' and he was invited to spend a year as an FO.

Frankly, you would have to be a goose to allow a photo to be taken of a hostie in a control seat inflight. Either that or you are completely ignorant of the Regs. Or maybe just both.

You boys will have to pay for this one.

Nunc
2nd Sep 2008, 08:16
As I was told as a youngster "if you are going to do it don't get caught".

packrat
2nd Sep 2008, 08:38
With the software available you could any thing with an image.
Image Shack is the web host and must have enhancement functions
Why is there nothing in the windows?
If its cloud it may get a bit rough...the hostie looks too relaxed to be in rough weather.
It a hoax.....someone just having a gee up.
Pity the poor buggers involved if this is taken seriously by some over zealous clerical type

BUSDRIVER200
2nd Sep 2008, 08:42
Aircraft is definately in flight, thrust lever positin and engine indications, plus AP 2 is engaged. Fo in the captain seat is normal procedure in Jetstar, just as SO's occupy captains seat in cruise in Qantas. Flight attendant poses no harm in the captains seat if briefed not to touch anything. I"m almost certain the FO seat would have been occupied, no one is that stupid as to leave it unoccupied. Crews leave the aircraft flown by a single pilot all the time for toilet breks, leg stretch etc. This thread is truly ridiculous and a waste of everyones time!

Lookleft
2nd Sep 2008, 09:03
Interesting to note that the F/A is sitting "side saddle" so her hands and feet are no where near the controls, which might suggest that whoever took the picture may have had an inkling that it might become public. Which, if that is the case, would also suggest that they should have realised that it wasn't a very clever idea.

packrat
2nd Sep 2008, 09:54
Had a little play with the image with Nero7.
It has definitely been altered...particularly the images outside the window.
Whatever was out side has been totally removed.
The mosaics over the faces and watches has been done for effect.ie to create more interest.

Keg
2nd Sep 2008, 09:55
I recall what happened to a QF 400 Captain about 10 years ago that allowed a teenager to be photographed at the controls. The pictures made it to the front page of the 'Tele' and he was invited to spend a year as an FO.

Lol. Partly right but let me expand as to some of the details.

The skipper was on the 744 when the piccies made the Telegraph. The headline was 'Pilot Error'. You are right that it was about ten years ago. I still recall very clearly being on a bivouac with my AIRTC Flight when I got a phone call from another AIRTC Staff member asking me had I seen it. It was the first day of an AIRTC flying camp. The skipper was a member of the AIRTC.

The aircraft the piccies were taken on was a 767. The person in the control seat held a CPL and was a flying instructor. If I recall correctly he occupied the right seat with the Captain in the left. Unfortunately Rob (the bloke in the piccie) died in December 1990 in a plane crash. Note the time frame here. The photo was taken in late '89 or early '90 on the way to Manila (possibly earlier) and yet the photo didn't hit the papers until about '97 or '98. I'm not sure how old Rob was when he died. He was a CPL in the AIRTC and had been for a year or two which put him about 24 or 25. He was certainly no teenager.

News Ltd (publishers of the Daily Telegraph) owned Ansett and so any anti-QF news was huge news to them. This was a rolled gold opportunity to stick the boot in.

Another 'gentleman' had also occupied a control seat. He too had a CPL and Instructors rating. It is widely thought he forwarded the pictures to the Tele as there were only three people with the photos. The captain, Rob and this other 'gentleman'. Obviously the Captain would send them in and Rob had died seven or eight years previously. Draw your own conclusions.

All three were members of the (then) AIRTC. There was a falling out between the QF skipper and the other gentleman in the aftermath of Rob's death regarding the conduct of various issues that the 'gentleman' had been involved in. I won't go into more specific info here.

The 'gentleman' who is purported to have forwarded the pictures was attempting to 'rejoin' (it's a little more complicated than that but 'rejoin' will do for the time being) the AIRTC at the time the forwarded the photos hit the papers. Although I was quite junior in the organisation back then my understanding is that this was being resisted due to some 'issues' from both the crash years earlier and some subsequent events.

The photos hitting the paper required the skipper (who was also relatively senior in the AIRTC at the time) to stand aside his role in the AIRTC. This had the potential to derail the course that had started that day. It is my opinion that the timing of the photos on the first day of course was designed to remove the senior AIRTC member from his capacity with the 'gentleman' being one of the few people who could be the 'saviour' of the flying camp.

As to the J* issue, in this day and age what a daft thing to do. If you did decide to do something that stupid then what possesses an individual to take photos of it. If you were indeed stupid enough (in addition to the two previous points) to take photos, how stupid are you to let them get out in the open! :eek: I'm not one to break the rules and I certainly don't condone a cover up but any forensic examination of the three points above indicates that this particular crew has exhibited a consistent degree of stupidity over successive issues.

I'd be disappointed though if it turns out these piccies were forwarded on by a QF driver. The comments about 'polluting the culture' strike me as being from one of our guys. There are many ways that this could have been dealt with and using crikey is probably up there with THE worst way to actually go about it.

jack diamond
2nd Sep 2008, 09:55
blow it up to 400% boys and i think you will all agree its in the air, not that i care a **ck , ita shame how times change. Is the boss in the right hand seat? CHEERS TO ALL!

Keg
2nd Sep 2008, 10:00
Actually, did the boss even know? Don't J* work with two F/Os on long haul flights? Perhaps the skipper is still none the wiser.

jack diamond
2nd Sep 2008, 10:06
True Keg, just another thought after another cold tiger, is the boss in drag!

flyingins
2nd Sep 2008, 10:06
It is interesting to note that the contributor mentions Alan Joyce's comments about not wanting to "pollute" the Jetstar pilot ranks with experienced crew.

As Keg suggests, it is widely known that comment was directed at Qantas pilots.

It needs to be said that NO Jetstar line-pilot supports those sentiments (quite the opposite) but I too wonder whether the photos in question were supplied to Crikey by someone with an axe to grind.

I hardly condone the actions of the crew on this flight (and it was unbelievably silly to allow them into the public forum) but let's be honest; ANYONE who has been in the airlines for any length of time has seen this occur on the flightdeck.

This idiotic "tipster", however, may have just destroyed the careers of three or four hard-working crew out of sheer bloody-minded spite. By no means just desserts for what in all reality is a silly but ultimately harmless infraction.

As for the media's role in this and countless other instances of aviation mis-reporting? You should be ashamed. Allow me to pick through the contents of any of your "detailed, in-depth" reports of alleged aviation incidents over the last few months in particular and highlight all of the incorrect assumptions, flawed research and over-reliance on the ill-informed opinions of those utterly unqualified to comment on technical issues beyond their understanding (ie passengers), and I think professional negligence is the closest description that fits the bill.

In any event, never forget - what goes around comes around.

Keg
2nd Sep 2008, 10:17
...let's be honest; ANYONE who has been in the airlines for any length of time has seen this occur on the flightdeck.

13 1/2 years in QF. Never seen it. Never heard of it being suggested. Haven't heard of it happening in that time. It ain't going to happen if I'm on the flight deck.

I agree with everything else you wrote! :ok:

flyingins
2nd Sep 2008, 10:21
You just explained in-depth how it happened on a Qantas flight about 10 years ago, Keg.

Sounds like a suggestion to me.

Mr. Hat
2nd Sep 2008, 10:21
big deal - happens in a lot of airlines and its legal - not sure about the jstar tho

genex
2nd Sep 2008, 10:32
This might be a unique opportunity to show some solidarity and in doing so protect one of our own from the Thought Police.....

I have seen it done on the F27, DC9 and 727 and did it myself (allowed someone to sit there) most recently on the 777.

Anyone else owning up?

justawanab
2nd Sep 2008, 10:34
Geez! What a beat-up!
I only get to sit in the blunt end since you've had to keep the door locked but back in '64 even I got to sit in the LH seat of a Comet 4 ... and I was only 9! :O

Frankly, I don't care which bum's on which seat so long as at least one of them is attached to someone who knows how to fly the thing ... and the other one is reasonably close by, just in case. Also, if anyone other that a pilot is going to be in the seat, I'd also much prefer it was another crew member. That way I know they're at least vaguely aeronautically intelligent enough not to fiddle with the buttons and knobs.

Artificial Horizon
2nd Sep 2008, 10:43
What exactly is the big deal, it happens all of the time. Captains seat will be empty when he goes to the loo or stretches his legs, often then the Flight Attendent will come up and have a chat, why shouldn't she seat herself on the captains seat when it is fully retracted and her hands and feet come nowhere near the controls!! I have seen it done on many many occassions.

ACMS
2nd Sep 2008, 11:03
yeah big bloody deal.

As long as common sense prevails and there is a fully qualified crew member occupying the other seat. They ARE trained to deal with ANY in-flt emergency while the other has his pants around his ankles at the loo.

I've seen it done in CX, indeed WE REQUIRE an FA to be in the cockpit while the other Pilot takes his loo break. I don't really care where she/he sits as long as it doesn't interfere with the controls and the other Pilot does his job.

Indeed if we had 2 jump seat pax ( non crew ) then we still require a FA to be in the cockpit, they should sit in the empty control seat so they can reach the OXY mask at that seat station ( the only one available )

COMMON SENSE GENTLEMEN.

HotDog
2nd Sep 2008, 11:07
A very long time ago, we had Mr. Dick Smith as a passenger on board. He asked to visit the flight deck and after a convivial period of conversation, we offered him a seat on the left hand side of our four engine jet and handed him the controls. He did a very good job of flying straight and level for a little while. Not bad for a helicopter jock. The right hand seat was manned by a fully qualified pilot of course. If my memory serves me right, it happenned in the seventies, I'm sure Dick hasn't forgotten it.

ACMS
2nd Sep 2008, 11:16
yeah the good ol days.:ok:

Nowdays that WOULD be pushing it a bit far.

HotDog
2nd Sep 2008, 11:26
Right, nowadays there are no more visits to the flight deck; pity!:sad:

teresa green
2nd Sep 2008, 11:38
Me too, Genex. On a charter flight TAA DC9, a very experienced F/O was in the RH seat, she was even wearing my hat, and I think from memory it was the Moscow Circus. And she was three years old. That was in the days when the Captain could invite children up to the flight deck and actually nurse one of them on his lap without being labelled a child groper. I can well remember having four little tackers on the flight deck from PER to SYD on Christmas Eve on a B727 and we all picked em up to see if Santa was near. As for flight attendants it was often common in TAA for one to sit on a seat, especially if the Capt. was standing behind for a leg stretch, or the F/O for that matter. Usually the tea bearer up for chat. I don't think we ever lost a A/C because of it! The world has gone mad.:*

Keg
2nd Sep 2008, 11:42
You just explained in-depth how it happened on a Qantas flight about 10 years ago, Keg.

flyingins, read my post again. I explained in depth about it hit the papers about 10 years ago but the events themselves were at least 18 and possibly 19-20 years ago. The person in the photo published on the Tele was dead in December 1990. :ugh: :rolleyes:

I stand by my comments. In the 13 1/2 years I've been in QF I haven't seen it or even heard of it in that time frame.

..did it myself (allowed someone to sit there) most recently on the 777.

Why am I not surprised. :rolleyes:

Jabawocky
2nd Sep 2008, 11:46
ACMS.......... very well rounded post! :D

J

Capn Bloggs
2nd Sep 2008, 12:07
CAR 227 (for some years):

(2) A person may occupy the pilot seat or other operating crew position in
an aircraft, only if:
(a) the person is a member of the operating crew who is duly
assigned for duty in the aircraft and is licensed for the duties
associated with that seat or position.

Contravene and you only have yourself to blame.

HotDog
2nd Sep 2008, 12:11
We all know that. Holier than thou.....?

ACMS
2nd Sep 2008, 12:20
Yes I know the CAR's

But in the CX case with two jump seat pax and one remaining Pilot where do you expect the FA to get her OXY from? her pocket!! She would have to jump into the seat and put on the Captains or F/O's mask pronto. The fact that she will have to jump into the seat and then grab the mask could waste time she might not have. And I don't need the two jump seat pax trying to remove a dead body blocking the door either. ( after we reach 10,000' and I've crawled out of the loo trying to get back to the cockpit )

OhSpareMe
2nd Sep 2008, 12:24
I would hazard a guess that should that sort of circumstance arrive then you would be hard pressed to achieve a prosecution. There would be bigger things to worry about.

I doubt the flightie would be able to locate the oxy mask in the first instance.

ACMS
2nd Sep 2008, 12:28
I don't know about your flighties but ours are trained on the use of cockpit seats ( elec and non-elec use ), windows, emergency equip location and Oxy mask use. etc etc.

And they are tested on it.

Although having said that 1 or 2 still forget. but most know.:ok:

It could happen, old Murphy being what he is. We do have quite a few flights where we carry 2 non crew in the jump seats through the region.

eye_in_the_sky
2nd Sep 2008, 12:32
Blah Blah Blah.

FO in the left seat could rightly have been a Cruise FO -- Jetstar Cruise FO's get 3 stripes as well. Really shits the Qantas guys!!

That would mean the FO was in the right seat.
Photo with CSM in the left seat would have been while cruiser / capt on toilet break.

The 2 photos are a long way apart time wise, there is no CPDLC logon in her picture, but there is in the second.

In this politically correct day, who REALLY gives a shit ??? :ugh:

flyingins
2nd Sep 2008, 12:34
Correct Keg,

My bad. The "0" is next to the "9".

I can recall, as a 10 year old, being in the cockpit on two respective Qantas 767 flights. On the first, the Captain allowed me to "play" with the HDG selector while in cruise. On the second, a completely different Captain allowed me to sit in the right hand seat for twenty minutes while the FO was visting the cabin.

Two such "permissive" commanders at a time where, if you read other posts on this thread, many others allowed the same is merely indicative of a well-established culture. It has been going on since day dot and that you haven't seen it is either because (a) you're not being 100% honest; (b) refer to (a) or; (c) you've been in crew-rest when it has happened.

Many highly experienced airline Captains and FO's (who fly for other airlines, poor sods) have suggested that it isn't a big deal. Comments like; "Why am I not surprised :rolleyes:" indicate a general attitude of sanctimony that underlines the reason why so much QF-bashing occurs on this site.

P.S - Bloggs you are utterly, 100% correct and if I could be certain you'd never violated a single order or regulation I'd allow you to preach from the mount un-challenged. It is a shame that CASA don't regulate common sense. A large fraction of the contributors to this site would have been "sent to the brig" years ago.

neville_nobody
2nd Sep 2008, 12:35
I remember the QF incident and if the skipper had been smart he would have shut up and let them try and prove that he was the PIC at the time. It was just a photo of a guy in the Captains seat, you couldn't have proved the thing was even airborne :rolleyes:

Same here. Yes it's a dumb thing to do however I'd be interested to see what would happen if Jetstar sued Crikey for defamation.

How would you prove beyond reasonable doubt it was a

Jetstar Aircraft, Operated on RPT, In Flight, etc etc

You would have to also prove that the flight attendant wasn't superimposed in there. You would also have to prove that the photo hadn't been taking on the ground then made to look airborne. With the quality of photo editing gear these days I think you would have to call in some pretty good expert witnesses to prove that the photos are genuine.

I reckon Crikey are the ones taking the risk here just quietly. If you had some balls and too much money a defamation suit might stop it happening again!

Capn Bloggs
2nd Sep 2008, 12:54
ACMS,
Yes I know the CAR's

But in the CX case with two jump seat pax and one remaining Pilot where do you expect the FA to get her OXY from? her pocket!! She would have to jump into the seat and put on the Captains or F/O's mask pronto. The fact that she will have to jump into the seat and then grab the mask could waste time she might not have. And I don't need the two jump seat pax trying to remove a dead body blocking the door either. ( after we reach 10,000' and I've crawled out of the loo trying to get back to the cockpit )
You are joking aren't you? If you're that worried, don't let them in the cockpit in the first place. And what do you do if she's standing behind the control seats with a tray of coffees, both jumpseats occupied, and a depressurisation occurs??

Flyingins,
Bloggs you are utterly, 100% correct and if I could be certain you'd never violated a single order or regulation I'd allow you preach from the mount un-challenged.
I wouldn't normally answer such a silly post but since you're sledging Keg as well... I was merely pointing out what would seem to be a fairly straightforward reg which it seems is being contravened regularly. No comment on your "regulate commonsense" - I'm not arguing about whether the rule is a decent one - the fact is it's there, and people have got severely in the poo for breaking it. If you think that I or the others are sanctimonious or preaching then you have a strange way of approaching your regulatory obligations.

chookcooker
2nd Sep 2008, 12:57
A lot of CSM's these days think they rank above the FO, so it makes sense she's in the left seat:}

OhSpareMe
2nd Sep 2008, 13:11
Jetstar Cruise FO's get 3 stripes as well. Really shits the Qantas guys!!

Oh Yeah. That doesn't 'shit' me mate. Only because I get paid a 'shit'load more.

Here is the drum boys. Don't let people who are not appropriately licensed and assigned for duty in the aircraft into a control seat. It is the law. Flaunt that at your own risk. As some Jetstar people are about to find out.

A Comfy Chair
2nd Sep 2008, 13:16
I think I could safely say that in this day and age anyone at QF who did this would be summarily dismissed.

Is a photo of a flight attendant really worth it?

QF2
2nd Sep 2008, 13:32
As stated above, obviously not the best thing the pilot(s) should have done in this day and age, although really it's no big deal.

As for these "hard-hitting" journalists, I don't know how they can sleep at night by trying to ruin people's careers. Nice one guys, keep up the good work :ok:

Kangaroo Court
2nd Sep 2008, 13:32
Especially seeing as though somebody was dumb enough to let it out to the media.

ACMS
2nd Sep 2008, 14:45
Capt Blogs: I can't cater for all contingencies and the 30 seconds to 1 min she is standing in the rear of the cockpit is an acceptable risk. 10 mins is a bit different. Sitting in a seat that is fully aft is not a problem especially in an Airbus with no Yoke to get in the way or bump.

Anyway, thems the rules I work under.:ok::ok:

Now that doesn't mean I'd take a photo and post it on the www:O

La La Land
2nd Sep 2008, 14:51
For Fark sake!

Enough with the b*llshit.

"in the sim" "on the ground" "doctored pics"

PLeaaase!

Whether its your best mate taking a photo of you covered in spew after a big night, a pretty flighty wanting a pic in the control seat for her facebook profile or even getting snapped by the google streetscape 4wd as it trundles past, be VERY careful where and WHAT you are doing anytime someone takes a pic/video on their phone or camera as sure as sh*t it will end up in the public domain before you know it!

Sleeve_of_Wizard
2nd Sep 2008, 16:19
The "stewardess" looks like a "steward" to me.
What is yr " Cruise F/O" ?? Relief Commander or Second Officer role?

Clearedtoreenter
2nd Sep 2008, 18:31
Wow! How times change! On my first trip to Godzone, well over 20 years ago now on a 747, not saying who's but its sister ship had been involved in some gliding practice a couple of years prior, I flashed my UK PPL and asked to viist the cockpit. No problem at all, I was up there before I knew it. When I got there, there was just the F/O and and the engineer, left seat empty. F/O said take a seat! So I did and there I was in charge of my own 747-200 , must have been there just chatting away for about half an hour in the dark over India, I did not get to touch anything but I'll never forget that and nobody seemed to think there much wrong with doing it.

Wasn't there also another incident where a senior captain of something with a furry animal depicted on the tail gave his girlfiend a control seat, but added an autopilot disconnection? Didn't he then get a some time in the opposite seat when she blabbed? (Hell have no fury...?)

There was also that famous TV 'air disasters' case where the Captain gave his son a go in his Airbus - with terrible results which I guess illustrates the point in this thread.

clawmonstar
2nd Sep 2008, 20:47
Looks to me like someone may have put this photo up on their own personal Facebook site (or a J* group site). It would be quite easy to save the picture then re-upload it onto another site.

Guess it brings back the fact that if you upload anything onto the internet (a part which has public access) you want to be damn careful.

Ouch.

Capt Kremin
2nd Sep 2008, 21:46
Is it a breach of the rules?-Yes

Is it, in all practicality, dangerous? - No

Will the press get hold of it and blow it all out of proportion in order to sell more fish and chip wrappers? - Very probably.

And that my friends is why this is a big deal. In this PC, instant expert age, you have to watch your back like never before. I feel sorry for the Jetstar guys here who may end up as sacrificial lambs to the BS brigade. But that is the way of the world these days and you ignore it at your own peril.

Tempo
2nd Sep 2008, 21:59
Exactly,

I have not seen it before in my time with my current employer. Yes I have 'heard' about it happening in the 'good old days' from various crew but the simple fact remains-it is against company procedures and it is also pretty damm stupid. In the current world we live in, any perception from the public regarding a loss in safety culture or complacency by an airline towards safety can be damaging. Just look at the recent media attention towards Qantas (and their crews WERE following procedures and being conservative). Trying to impress the cabin crew by allowing them to sit in a crew seat inflight is just plain stupid and dangerous. It is called professionalism people and I think the 250+ passengers down the back demand it and deserve it. I would NEVER allow this on a flight deck I crew and quite frankly, they deserve what they get.

greenslopes
2nd Sep 2008, 22:03
Could be the Capt stepped to have a dump and the F/O took a few liberties??

Keg
2nd Sep 2008, 22:24
Two such "permissive" commanders at a time where, if you read other posts on this thread, many others allowed the same is merely indicative of a well-established culture. It has been going on since day dot and that you haven't seen it is either because (a) you're not being 100% honest; (b) refer to (a) or; (c) you've been in crew-rest when it has happened.

flyingins, I'm not saying that it's never happened in the past as the photo I alluded to demonstrates. I'm just saying that I've never seen or heard of it occurring in QF in the last 13 1/2 years. I'm a Christian so lying isn't something I engage in. Perhaps it's option C but again, I've never known it to occur.

I'll do a quick straw poll and see if I can find any of my colleagues who have known of it occurring.

Led Zeppelin
2nd Sep 2008, 22:29
Unfortunately Capt Kremin is dead right.

I just hope the guy(s) concerned don't have to pay for this with their jobs.

I'm sure he/they are now acutely aware of exactly what the limits are in this crazy PC environment.:ugh:

LapSap
2nd Sep 2008, 23:27
Jesus!
At least if you're going to get done for it, you could make it worth while like these guys.

YouTube - Air Hostess Strip Topless in cockpit during flight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aAoW6SNwU4)

captaintunedog777
2nd Sep 2008, 23:39
What r u amateurs carrying on about. Cabin crew have been occupying a control seat when a crew member leaves the flight deck for years and years. Keg you must have had your head under your seat to not have wttnessed this before.

A Cap or FO would not be stupid enough in this day and age to allow a pic to be taken. And then to even discuss whether the FO was seated or not at the time borders on the rediculous. Obviously some have u have pleanty of time to waste.

It is a definate fake to once again bring the spotlight onto Jetstar. Some computer geek has done a pretty good job. Though it is often easy to fool narrow minded fools.

And to the genius who stated the regs. Onya. You will go farrrrrrrrrrr
One day you will learn how to handle the big jets.:sad:

Ixixly
2nd Sep 2008, 23:53
Well, as a student pilot i have a question for you all.

Agreed that under CAO 20.16.3 there is a law that says you can only occupy a control seat with functioning controls with instructions not to touch them if the aircraft have an airworthiness directive allowing for a minimum crew of 1. There is also CAR 266 which plainly states that you are not allowed to occupy a control seat unless appropriately licensed.

Further reading of CAR 227 though states:

(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft shall admit an authorised person
to the crew compartment and allow that person to occupy the seat or
position appropriate for the performance of his or her duties if the pilot
in command is not of the opinion that the personís admission to the
crew compartment or occupation of that seat or position, as the case
may be, would endanger the safety of the aircraft.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.

As i'm to understand it some companies require there to be someone else in the flight deck at all times, for example if the Captain was to go back to the loo for a while or some such then an FA would need to with him, would it then not to be deemed appropriate by the PIC for an FA (Presumably authorised) to enter and occupy the left hand seat to allow the pilot remaining in the flight deck to continue with his/her duties?

OneDotLow
3rd Sep 2008, 00:10
Tunedog, you are a fool!

I have never seen cabin crew occupy a control seat on any jet i have been working on...

On the ground at the gate, yes! Just like the kids who come up after landing to say gday.

Then again... perhaps thats the difference between you and I.

It's a good thing we work for different airlines.

Ixixly... there is no requirement for more than one person to be on the flight dekc, provided there are quick donning oxy masks. Cheers!

RFN
3rd Sep 2008, 00:25
Mate, you won my vote with your u tube link!!!

That's forepaly before the o/nite...:)

A Comfy Chair
3rd Sep 2008, 01:01
Ixixly, the other pilot can continue with his duties quite happily with no-one in the other seat. The aircraft types we're talking about have 4 seats, only 2 of them off limits (control seats), so no shortage of somewhere to sit. The F/A is really there just to make sure that if the other pilot were to become incapacitated, there would be someone to let others know, and to let the Captain back in.

Most instructors have at some stage seen someone "Freak out" during flight, when something unexpected happens, and thats a pretty good reason not to have a non-qualified person sitting in the seat. CASA seem to think its a good idea not to too.

We're flying jets with a few hundred people on them, and they deserve to have their pilots complying with the CAR's.

Keg
3rd Sep 2008, 01:03
tunedog, just because breaking the law appears to be prevalent and condoned in your work place it doesn't automatically mean it's prevalent or condoned in mine. Perhaps I'm just ignorant and this sort of stuff went on all the time when I was in the bunk but I'd be surprised if it did.

There are many things in this world that were 'accepted' 20, 10 and even 5 years ago. Just look at things like DUI, smoking, etc. What once was deemed 'no big deal' actually is a big deal.

captaintunedog777
3rd Sep 2008, 01:29
I am not saying I do it. I would not allow it to occur especially in the current climate. However a fool would say it never occurs. I have seen it. With the seat back. Come on there is hardly a safety breach and yes it goes against regs.

But the pics are fakes. No idiot in their right mind would allow a happy snap to be taken.

OhSpareMe
3rd Sep 2008, 01:40
Yep. A pretty impressive 'fake' if they went to the trouble of adjusting the standby ASI to read about 250 odd knots.

Gotta hand it to them. They think of everything those fakers!

Angle of Attack
3rd Sep 2008, 02:03
I'm a Christian so lying isn't something I engage in

Hey Keg! I am a full blown Atheist does that me I engage in lying?!:eek:

just havinga go at ya! :ok:

captaintunedog777
3rd Sep 2008, 02:13
ohspareme

Ignorance is bliss

Flight Detent
3rd Sep 2008, 02:27
Well, it's not like it's a real aeroplane anyway...

Does anybody have any control at any given point in the flight?

Ho Hum...

ACMS
3rd Sep 2008, 02:28
Just shows you how "up themselves some QF Pilot's are"

Get a life.

If they can't interfere with the controls then WHO CARES.

And like I said before, which Oxy mask do you think they are going to need for the 10 mins I'm in the loo while both jump seats are occupied already?

Yes the one beside my seat.

Keg
3rd Sep 2008, 02:51
AoA, fair cop. And it's not like some people who have called themselves 'Christians' haven't previously engaged in lying. I guess the point I was trying to make is that lying isn't in my make up. It's not part of my value system or something that I do.

Spotlight
3rd Sep 2008, 03:09
Look out!

A person telling how honest he/she is. I was about 8 years old when first warned about this behaviourism.

captaintunedog777
3rd Sep 2008, 03:18
You are hereby ordained Saint Keg

How appopriate. It must be a barrel of laughs in the flight deck with the likes of yourself.

Just kidding champ:p

Keg
3rd Sep 2008, 04:00
Spotlight, not 'telling', responding to an assertion that perhaps I wasn't being truthful in my earlier comments. I was explaining that I don't lie and the core principle around why I don't.

tunedog, I've been called 'Sir Keg' a number of times previously in a non-Qantas setting but Saint Keg is a certainly a first in any environment! :} :ok:

captaintunedog777
3rd Sep 2008, 04:25
I captaintunedog777 have previously lyed and i'm sorry to say to my partner on the odd occassion with reference the opposite sex.

Help me please:8

Spotlight
3rd Sep 2008, 05:04
Keg. Standard trait so far. Any background in sales, semi religious upbringing or single/youngest child situation.

Condition lever
3rd Sep 2008, 05:15
Keg

Perhaps you should be more concerned with an airline culture that when the pilots stuff up (ala centre tank pumps not turned on for a 737 dash across Aus) they attempt to have the engineer cover it up.
I would be far more concerned with that aspect.

BTW - No one has quoted the next paragraph in CAO 20.16.3 which states:
11.2 In respect of aircraft engaged in regular public transport operations, the seat referred to in paragraph 11.1 shall not be occupied by a person other than a licensed pilot or an employee of the operator of the aircraft unless approved by CASA. Details of such an approval shall be included in the Operations Manual.

Last I heard the FAs are employees of the operator.

Pherhaps the guys with agendas can get off their soap boxes now :*

Spotlight
3rd Sep 2008, 05:43
Good call Condition Lever. I was waiting for someone to Spot that.

Q.E.D. (quite easily done).

Now, about these Qantas psyche tests?

Capt Wally
3rd Sep 2008, 07:15
'LapSap after watching yr link to that raunchy You-Tube striptease I now reckon Single Pilot sucks big time:{ I wanna be an airline pilot despite all the things I have said against them:E
Life be in it I say. I bet with that sort of thing going on in the cockpit nobody's gunna want a pay rise whilst another 'rise' might be in the making:E


CW

Ken Wells
3rd Sep 2008, 07:56
They both have terrible acne!

Tempo
3rd Sep 2008, 08:31
Hey Condition Lever.....an expert on QF 'culture' are you??? How does the example you describe translate to a 'culture' at an airline thereby implying that all pilots regularly cover up incidents. Or are you simply using your wealth of knowledge from the media or the ATSB report and making your own judgement????

Spaz Modic
3rd Sep 2008, 08:54
:ok: Hypocritical crap ;)

DEFCON4
3rd Sep 2008, 08:55
...we go.Where we stop..... only the Moderators know

Rainboe
3rd Sep 2008, 10:00
His shirt is nicely ironed. I like nice sharp creases in my shirt like that- like you could cut your finger on them. Very smart.

(about the most important thing in that pair of pictures!).

Who is the self obsessed idiot making such an issue of this? It's important to have nicely ironed shirts!

sthaussiepilot
3rd Sep 2008, 10:11
Rainboe,

I remember the importance of sharp ironing in the RAAF,

Are you Ex Mil?

teresa green
3rd Sep 2008, 11:18
Sigh, I remember a picture doing the rounds of the TAA crew room of a Capt in LHS with a beautiful blonde sitting in his lap and yes the A/C was under way, not one person said "that looks dangerous" or "that is against air accordances" they all just said "lucky bastard" and why? because they knew the F/O was well and truly there and flying the beast, and if something did go wrong she would have been dropped on the flr in one second flat. But that was thirty years ago, and despite all our slackness we never did manage to put one in. Its a load of crap, the skipper has probably gone to the john and the tea bearer has taken the seat with or without his permission, she was probably there for a nanosecond and another crew member has used their mobile to record the advent. Its being going on since Pontius was a pilot, I have seen it many times over the years, in three different airlines, but not at any stage was it a risk. The flight deck became a different place after 9/11 far more sensitive, and that is probably both good and bad. I just feel sorry for the pax who were hanging out for a G and T while the photos were going on.

Binoculars
3rd Sep 2008, 11:28
In the red corner, weighing seventy five kilos, we have (drum roll).... the high moral ground!!!!! They haven't been around for very long but they've stupefied us all with their presence.

In the blue corner, weighin one hunnert and sixty three pounds, are The Old Farts!!!!! (Loud cheers).

Tonight's bout, ladies and gentlemen, will be fought in areas none of us can see. The result will be decided by faceless beancounters. We thank you all for your attendance, and we have great sympathy with your views that this is all a monumental beatup, but in conjunction with the New Age of aviation and everything else, why don't you all just go home? Your opinions are irrelevant.

Me, I'm going back to the hostie strip posted earlier, and I recommend you all do the same, 'cos there's a couple of even tastier versions available. Nearly gave me the horn, they did.

(Suspect even tinpis may agree with me on this one.....)

mmmbop
4th Sep 2008, 03:16
Here's another thread that shows the ignorance and stupidity level of the average poster on PPRuNe. Just like the QF 767 NRT thread.

What an outstanding argument - "Its been done like that since Great Grandad was a little boy so it is fine........"

Yep, and why don't you go back and join the cavemen, fools.

In a 'cutting edge' industry that is responsible for providing many, many safety-related and efficiency related applications to the broader community, I always love to come and laugh at the dinosaurs that post here on PPruNe.

Keep it up people. No wonder we have the issues with pay & conditions that we are currently fighting through.

M

ACMS
4th Sep 2008, 03:54
So how much more "cutting edge" is the technology today?


Not a lot different to 20 years ago I would have thought, we did have 767's then you know!! or where you not born then?

take your dinasaur comment and move on mate.

Oh, and the only reason the Pilot's of today have "issues with their pay and conditions" is because too many of the young ones of today fall all over themselves to work for nothing and don't give a toss about their fellow colleages.

No cohesive union.

Bombay HF
4th Sep 2008, 04:04
Keg...Do you tell your kids there is no Santa or Easter Bunny?

Ixixly
4th Sep 2008, 04:26
Thanks comfy chair for your response, as i said still a student so its good to hear it from those with experience!! Lord knows when it might save my own bacon some day :P

Lever, i actually did have a looksy around at that CAO when i was reading this thread, the seat referred to in 11.1 though is a seat on an aircraft that has a minimum crew of 1 person as far as i'm aware. A330 has a min crew of 2 and as such neither of these laws apply, and as such we are forced back to CAR 226:

(1) During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft
equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if:
(a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of
aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown;
or
(b) the person is a student pilot assigned for instruction in the
aircraft; or
(c) the person is authorised by CASA.

Penalty: 25 penalty units.

would that be a correct interpretation of the law?

mmmbop
4th Sep 2008, 04:59
Keep it coming ACMS, you are only reinforcing my point. Aviation no more cutting edge than 20 years ago? Boy, you most certainly aren't a rocket scientist are you....??

Thanks for the age sledge. I'll let my children know that some anonymous fool on PPruNe thinks I'm not even old enough to drink in the US.

Cheers mate.

M

ps you will have to explain to me how people who resist change, wanting to keep the status quo of 30 years ago don't fall under the moniker of dinosaur?

A Comfy Chair
4th Sep 2008, 06:08
Ixixly,

You are exactly right. The CAO is effectively an exemption allowing single pilot operations to have someone sitting in the other pilot seat, but they qualify that by saying that if its RPT, it can only be an employee or authorised person.

For this operation, it is the CAR that applies.

There is no doubt whatsoever that if in flight this is a breach of the CAR's (and an offense of strict liablity, which could make it interesting if they tried to pursue the pilots over it).

I don't know what the Jetstar Ops manual says, but the Qantas one also strictly forbids it.

The question in this case isn't really if it is particulally unsafe... the question is was there a sufficiently good reason to ignore the CAR.

Maybe the Captain picking up a hostie counts? :}

NAMPS
4th Sep 2008, 06:51
The real issue in this situation is this - Is the hostie hot?

I can't tell with the pixelation. :}

Edition12
4th Sep 2008, 07:34
Just a quick note to those saying the view outside has been deleted from the images. In most cases, when photos taken inside cockpits, cars, and for that matter an inside room with windows visible, the camera will meter - and then set exposure - for the objects inside. As the cockpit - in this case - is darker than outside, this will generally over-expose or burn out anything outside. The only reliable way to get a correctly exposed picture of both inside and outside is to meter for outside, which will leave the inside dark, and then use a flash to light the inside.

In all likelihood, nothing outside the cockpit was captured in the original image, and nothing has been deleted - further indicated by the fact that you can see on the coaming of the panel a bright, almost white patch of glare adjacent to the cockpit glass.

topend3
4th Sep 2008, 08:02
i once jumpseated between perth and broome and was invited by the captain to sit in his seat whilst he left the cockpit. the fo was still in his seat. i had the fo take a photo of me but he never sent it to me...for obvious reasons....

i won't name the airline...

teresa green
4th Sep 2008, 08:20
MMMBOP, I am proudly one of those stupid ol bastards you refer to, but just think, if us dumb ones had not done what we did, flying all sorts of mongrels, (and enjoying it) not much would have been learnt. yes, we did not mind a bit of fun on the flight deck especially at 0300 when we were bored and tired, and if some little flight attendant came up with some tea and sat on the F/Es lap and told us some jokes so what. As I said before since 9/11 things have changed, but I am glad I flew when I did, because it was FUN, you can stick your technology and your old mans Aircraft, if it sours you that much, I'll take the days when the Aircraft were difficult bastards, the cabin crew enjoyed their jobs, and the technology was lousy, but efficient, and we were actually able to make a decision ourselves without having to consult some manual, because the port navlight is broken, she is all yours mate, have fun!

mmmbop
4th Sep 2008, 08:28
Teresa,

Do you feel better after that?

I am impressed to see that you made some very enlightening points that certainly emphasise why things shouldn't change. Thanks for the constructive argument.

Strange but I can't for the life of me see where I said 'stupid ol bastards'. Maybe those rose-tainted glasses read that in for you........

M

Cam32
4th Sep 2008, 10:45
Is that a man or woman in the picture, :eek:

biggreenfrog
4th Sep 2008, 10:52
Whats the problem. Nothing got bent.

Didnt Qantas let a flight attendant land a jumbo in Bangkok a few years back?

Surely it wasnt a Qantas Sky God that parked the said machine at the golf course! :)

ExSp33db1rd
4th Sep 2008, 10:57
Fun on the flight deck.

The navigator would spend a lot of time working out the maths. for a three star fix with the sextant, this then depended on keeping the sextant glued to each star for 2 minutes, NOTHING would detract him from that task, for to fail would mean starting all over again - or heaven forbid, the aircraft might be temporarily unsure of its position - occasionally, having started to observe the star, the door would open, ones belt would be loosened, and female ( hopefully) hands would start playing.

A lot better than just being photographed in the captains seat ! :ok:

ops.normal
4th Sep 2008, 11:15
Assuming this isn't them being silly, there is a precedent for flight attendants to sit in the front seats.

Air NZ SOP on 737 fleet is for FA to sit in either seat vacated by a pilot using the bathroom. This is in case there is a problem, there is no chance that one pilot alone could be isolated/incapacitated in the flight deck.

teresa green
4th Sep 2008, 11:41
Yodawg, if i'm female, the missus wants to know who the hell is that in her bedroom. I'm the mostly unlikely looking female you have ever seen, and no bloke would want me on his arm. "Teresa Green" is a WW2 call sign used by bomber command, as is "Ida Down" "lily white" and some not so printable.

ACMS
4th Sep 2008, 12:09
mmmmbop............you're the one that mentioned cutting edge technology.............I simply said that not a lot has changed in 20 years, not a hell of a lot. the 767 is still basically the same machine it was in 1983. Apart from TCAS and EGPWS
I was a young F/O 20 years ago and now I am a Senior Captain, so I think I have some experience in the matter.

And what does that have to do with the FA sitting in the Pilot's seat anyway???????????????

Who are you anyway? The fun Police?

How old are you?

You really think it is such a flight hazzard letting a FA sit in a fully aft control seat while a FULLY QUALIFIED Pilot occupies the other in FULL CONTROL?

You my friend need to get a life.

teresa green
4th Sep 2008, 12:49
Exsp33dbird, you have solved a problem for me. When I was a young F/0 it was always the skipper that seemed to be getting it all, when I finally got a command, still nothing, and I decided it must be the Flighty, now I found out at last it was the Navigators! But when they all left I still did'nt do much good so what tha???:confused::confused:

vortsa
4th Sep 2008, 21:20
I was once invited to sit in the left seat flying over the Gulf around the time of Dessert Storm. The pilot regretted allowing me in, because as he walked back to the aft galley, I lifted him off his feet and nearly stuck him to the ceiling. I wasn't to know the controls were so responsive.

mmmbop
4th Sep 2008, 23:54
My dear old ACMS,

Firstly allow me to state that you are right. I'm not as old as you. When you were a young FO I was in the middle of my Uni degree.

It seems however that a combination of age and being a Senior Captain, so I think I have some experience in the matter. hasn't developed your comprehension skills to a very high level.

Ok. Let me explain it more simply for you. 'Cutting edge' and 'FA in Pilot's seat' aren't inextricably connected. However, if you can just break your fixation on the Flight Director for a moment you will see that what I actually wrote was In a 'cutting edge' industry that is responsible for providing many, many safety-related and efficiency related applications to the broader community,.... Now hopefully you can see that the subject of my sentence isn't 'cutting edge', but rather the 'safety related & efficiency related applications' that the community benefits from our 'cutting edge' industry. FA in pilot's seat/safety related. Yep. I can see the connection. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Which brings me on to your next point. It took me a while to work out why you kept mentioning 767s. But then it became all too clear again. Fixation. That problem that comes with age. Stuck on that flight director again and missed the other clues. You saw '767' and the words 'cutting edge' in the same body of work and immediately thought they were connected. I wasn't calling the 767 cutting edge. If you notice it was in an entirely different paragraph that had a totally different subject about it. I used the 767 NRT thread as a reference to how the overwhelming majority of posters on this site have absolutely no idea of the facts, and speak an almost uncontrollable amount of BS. Nothing to do with 'cutting edge'.

I also find it amusing that you seem to think 'industry' implies AIRLINE industry only. Keep those blinkers on old chap. I'm sure they serve you well.

I wonder if your FOs enjoy having to explain the meaning of INTAMs to you 15 times in order to get you to understand why an airport can't be used in our 180mins EROPs plan today.......

Now please excuse me, I better run off and watch Play School.

M

ExSp33db1rd
5th Sep 2008, 09:24
teresa green


But when they all left I still did'nt do much good so what tha???


I guess some of us have ( had ! ) it and some of us don't !! :ok:

( actually - it was the Flt/eng. who usually scored in my experience, maybe it was the" Eau de JP 4 " they used for aftershave, or deoderant, either way they were the first in line when the flight deck door opened ! )

ACMS
5th Sep 2008, 09:48
Yes but you also said something about "old Dinosaurs.......blah blah"

( I'd go back in the thread to look but can't be bothered, no flight director available you see.:ok:

I tried to point out that your comment In a 'cutting edge' industry that is responsible for providing many, many safety-related and efficiency related applications to the broader community,....
cutting edge.............mmmmmm yes I can see how I could rightfully assume that also referred to technology and as such I was quite correct to point out to you that not a lot has changed in 25 years. I can assure you that most airlines also tried to have high standards in safety and efficiency back then too. CRM wasn't developed overnight.

I now fly the 777, have done for a long time now. I never flew the 76 but used that as an example of how "not a lot has changed"


p.s I have never heard of INTAMS? We in CX don't use the term. And we have been using ETOPS for a bit longer than you, I'd venture to suggest:ok:

teresa green
5th Sep 2008, 11:54
ACMS, I wouldnt bother mate, he's got a uni degree, which leaves us paddock bashers, well, where we belong, just simple drivers (or I was) just plying our trade around the skies, looking forward to downtime, and meeting our mates in some bar, where the women were young and the whisky was old, boring old fa#ts really. :{:{

Teal
6th Sep 2008, 00:25
he's got a uni degreeProbably just an Arts Degree - one of those you help yourself to in a uni toilet cubical (ie, the toilet roll) :}

mmmbop
6th Sep 2008, 08:26
BEng (Aero).

No apologies for it making you feel so inadequate Teal.

M

Teal
6th Sep 2008, 09:44
:=..no way...5 years at uni and some post-grad stuff was enough for me. Then it was time to make some serious money. :)

Cheers