Fairey Rotodyne

[Dave Gibbings]

I am in the process of writing a book on Rotodyne, to be published mid-2009.
I already have a wealth of information, sufficient to complete the book, but naturally I would like more if it should become available in time.
I myself flew in Rotodyne towards the end of the programme as a Flight Test Engineer, and in 2003 delivered the ‘Cierva’ Lecture on Rotodyne to the Royal Aeronautical Society in London.

I would like to acquire photographs of:

The Dynamic model at Hayes.
A good picture of ‘Light-up’.
An airborne picture of flying with the tailplane removed, and the fuselage braced.
A Picture of single engine run-on landing.
Photographs need to be of publishable quality (300dpi tif for digital copies) and copyright must be indisputable.

I have been unable to find any Pilot’s operating instructions.

[Dave Gibbings]

In the course of researching for my Rotodyne book I have been in touch with Ron's wife Barbera hoping to inspect his logbooks.
Ron loaned them to Derek Wood (Project Cancelled), who has since died.
Derek's extensive library was bequeathed to the Royal Aeronautical Society, but the logbooks do not appear to have been amongst the items passed over. They have dissappeared without trace!

If anyone has any idea of the whearabouts of what would be an invauable reference, please contact me.
Barbera would like to recover them and has agreed to allow them to be copied.
http://www.aviationancestry.com/discuss/Themes/default/images/icons/modify_inline.gif

[Chris Royle]

FAIREY ROTODYNE 60th anniversary lecture, including archive film

Monday 27th November at Maidenhead Town Hall SL6 1RF at 7.45pm

Speaker David Gibbings, who worked on Rotodyne

Tickets £10 from Maidenhead Heritage Centre 01628 780555


Further information 6th November is the 60th anniversary of the maiden flight at White Waltham of the revolutionary Rotodyne, the world's first vertical takeoff airliner. This special anniversary lecture tells the story of Rotodyne from its conception through the flight test programme (including route proving to Paris and Brussels) to the disappointment of its cancellation in 1962. David Gibbings will also look at VTOL projects since the trail-blazing Rotodyne - which was definitely ahead of its time.

[oldchina]

"the trail-blazing Rotodyne - which was definitely ahead of its time"
Who writes this crap? It was just another evolutionary dead end.

[Heathrow Harry]

Noisiest thing I ever heard........................

[Wander00]

Remember it clattering around White Waltham when at the AEF

[BEagle]

The noise of the Rotodyne is often raised as the reason it was eventually cancelled.

Which is fundamentally false!

Yes, the original prototype was noisy when in helicopter mode with the tip jets operating, but the progress made by Fairey with regard to tip jet silencers was such that the only comments raised when it flew to Battersea Heliport came from people who were hoping to see it and hadn't heard it arriving!

The usual tale of British dithering over size and specification is the real reason why this promising high speed point-to-point airliner never made it into commercial service.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

For those who aren't familiar with the Rotodyne, here's a 60s promotional piece from Fairey:
u4Z1UnRZDyo

[Herod]

Agreed, BEagle; and where have we come across that before? "Empire of the Clouds" makes depressing reading.

[DaveReidUK]

the progress made by Fairey with regard to tip jet
silencers

Sadly, I never had the chance to see or hear the Rotodyne flying, but that's the first time I've ever heard the terms "tip jet" and "silencer" in the same sentence.

promising high speed point-to-point airlinerSlower than a DC-3 ....

[BEagle]

Not many DC-3s operating from city centres - which was the real Rotodyne USP!

[VX275]

As someone who's office overlooked an airfield apron where an Andover and a Comet (both of a similar vintage to the Rotodyne) used to conduct engine runs I can confidently say that most aero engines of that vintage WERE NOT QUIET. Apart from the fact that the Rotodyne was dropped by Westlands on the 'Not invented here' basis, the Rotodyne concept should not be constantly dismissed over an issue which the additional 55 years of technological development could be used to resolve.

[ShyTorque]

The payload to basic weight ratio of the Rotodyne was exceptional, even compared to modern rotary wing aircraft.

I'd have loved to have had a go flying it.

[Heathrow Harry]

The Rotodyne cruised at 180 kt and had a range of 450 miles - assume that a modern version could do better on range - but not on speed due to the rotor (which provided half the lift in autogyro mode)

So where could you use it? London - Paris you'd be up against the Eurostar and in th erest of Yurop the TGV and similar

Even if it was a lot quieter than the prototype it would still be noisy so you could never run it from a location close to housing - somewhere like Docklands would be OK but then you have to add in the ground transport time v. a city centre to city centre train - and you'd still have modern security checks as well

[BEagle]

HH wrote: ...and you'd still have modern security checks as well

I wonder whether those will be required for the vanity project of HS2?

Rotodyne from Birmingham to London City - no need for that destructive train line...:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

The Rotodyne cruised at 180 kt and had a range of 450 miles - assume that a modern version could do better on range - but not on speed due to the rotor (which provided half the lift in autogyro mode)

So where could you use it? London - Paris you'd be up against the Eurostar and in th erest of Yurop the TGV and similar

Even if it was a lot quieter than the prototype it would still be noisy so you could never run it from a location close to housing - somewhere like Docklands would be OK but then you have to add in the ground transport time v. a city centre to city centre train - and you'd still have modern security checks as well

Aah, so just like trying to drive to the city from Battersea, then......

[FlightlessParrot]

I remember seeing the Rotodyne at Farnborough when I was a schoolboy. Lots of aircraft were noisy then (wasn't that the point? Vulcan was felt rather than heard), but it was strikingly loud for a civil transport.

In retrospect it seems like an interesting approach to relatively high speed with VTOL, and mechanically simpler than the V-22. But I don't think we can blame its failure on political or managerial failure, otherwise somebody else would have resurrected the idea in the subsequent 60+ years. It's just like the flying car: sounds nice, in practice doesn't work out. Rail is the obvious competitor, and rail wins--even with security checks.
A few years ago I travelled by the excellent Spanish high speed train system: there were security checks, but they were non-intrusive and non-annoying; and the train was more comfortable than any aircraft I've flown in.

[Haraka]

If you look at the rotor propulsor system; basically you had four, narrow diameter, jet effluxes.
To provide enough energy to lift the beast bodily you required a very high jet efflux velocity to provide the overall mass flow out of the burners enough to give sufficient rotational thrust into the rotor system. These four,narrow diameter,extremely high velocity gas effluxes then had to dissipate their energy in to the ambient air. This velocity shear was what made the noise and,incidentally is why today's large diameter high by-pass jet engines are quieter, by flattening this gradient over a series of stages of progressively lessening efflux velocities.
In autorotational flight the Rotodyne was in the same order of noise magnitude as any other twin turboprop,however the translation to and from hovering flight (and its duration) was another matter entirely . The claimed "end in sight" for the tip jet noise problem was wishful thinking ,a few db possibly by exhaust noise attenuators, but the efflux velocity shear noise situation could not be realistically overcome.
Excuses made that this problem only affected a relatively small area close to the touchdown/lift off point would not have placated those powerful entities working in the City of London for example,I would suggest.

Now,perhaps,had you blown that efflux out along most of the outer trailing edge of the rotor instead ,taking notice of the Hunting H. 126 "Jet flap" concept ........

[BEagle]

Haraka, a multi-nozzle system much as you suggest was under test at White Waltham before the project was cancelled.

For most of the demonstration flights, the tip jets were fitted with 7-lobe silencers, reducing the noise by some 7 db compared to the prototype.

The multi-nozzle system used 9 nozzles per blade with 'double H' silencers fitted to each. Test results showed that a reduction of at least 16 db could have been expected.

[Heathrow Harry]

"I wonder whether those will be required for the vanity project of HS2?"

trains are seen as different - as discussed elsewhere on PPrune- it's hard to hijack a train and crash it into a large office building for example

[ShyTorque]

HH,
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?

[ShyTorque]

If you look at the rotor propulsor system; basically you had four, narrow diameter, jet effluxes.
To provide enough energy to lift the beast bodily you required a very high jet efflux velocity to provide the overall mass flow out of the burners enough to give sufficient rotational thrust into the rotor system. These four,narrow diameter,extremely high velocity gas effluxes then had to dissipate their energy in to the ambient air. This velocity shear was what made the noise and,incidentally is why today's large diameter high by-pass jet engines are quieter, by flattening this gradient over a series of stages of progressively lessening efflux velocities.
In autorotational flight the Rotodyne was in the same order of noise magnitude as any other twin turboprop,however the translation to and from hovering flight (and its duration) was another matter entirely . The claimed "end in sight" for the tip jet noise problem was wishful thinking ,a few db possibly by exhaust noise attenuators, but the efflux velocity shear noise situation could not be realistically overcome.
Excuses made that this problem only affected a relatively small area close to the touchdown/lift off point would not have placated those powerful entities working in the City of London for example,I would suggest.

Now,perhaps,had you blown that efflux out along most of the outer trailing edge of the rotor instead ,taking notice of the Hunting H. 126 "Jet flap" concept ........

With the advantage of built in blade de-icing.

[Heathrow Harry]

"HH,
Why should the Rotodyne be more prone to hijacking than any other aircraft?"

None - I was comparing it to trains - which would be the main competetior to a 2020 Rotodyne. A lot of people on PPrune seem to want to spread the misery of security checks to long distance trains to "level the playing field"

[BEagle]

Having had to queue for a good 10 min to endure security checks for Eurostar from France back to UK, I can think of nothing more guaranteed to reduce the potential attraction of the ludicrous HS2....

A 2020 Rotodyne would need far less infrastructure than a high speed train, so could operate from a significantly greater number of locations.

[Heathrow Harry]

the moment you name one you'll be awash with lawyers and environmentalists as well as local MP's all screaming for your head.....................

and most HS trains run on tracks already built - in the UK for sure

I agree tho that HS2 is a ridiculous waste of money

[ShyTorque]

the moment you name one you'll be awash with lawyers and environmentalists as well as local MP's all screaming for your head.

Which is why we have to cope with a small, outdated and ever more tricky to access Heliport in our capital city and not many dedicated places to land elsewhere.

[Heathrow Harry]

It'll go eventually - one more accident...........

But why should we have a heliport in the middle of London? It doesn't benifit 99.999% of the population (actually only around 0.0006% of the population use it) there and causes a lot of noise and some risk

[ShyTorque]

HH, at great risk of causing thread drift, it seems strange that someone such as your good self, who presumably earned a good living from controlling air traffic, is actually against "customers" (mine and yours) flying to a place they need to go.

Battersea isn't a very convenient place for most of those using it. Including government ministers et al. But it's the only one that serves the capital city. Unfortunately, the road journey from there to the city can be very long winded.

It's time the whole London infrastructure is reviewed (I believe this is being done).

[India Four Two]

ST,

I can jump in while HH is presumably asleep. I was under the the same impression as you that HH was an ATCO, but quite by chance, about a year ago, I discovered that hiding behind that very effective Nom-de-PPRuNe was a friend of mine.

Therefore I can tell you that he has exactly the same ATC experience as me - zero! :E

I should also tell you that he has a wicked sense of humour so sometimes it is hard to tell whether or not he has his tongue firmly in his cheek!

[ShyTorque]

You mean he is a "troll"? That explains it, thanks.

[Heathrow Harry]

Like India Four Two I have a life long interest (and experience) of aircraft and operations in some fairly odd parts of the world

Sometimes I like to ask questions that others find unecessary or uncomfortable but , honestly, these are questions that others out in the wide world will or have asked.

PPrune can sometimes be a bit of a club of enthusiasts and practitioners and tends to self re-inforcing thought processes - not umcommon on the internet or anywhere else.

In this case I can assure you I've heard people ask the question re a heliport in C London - if you think it's necessary you will have to make the case and it it is an increasingly tough sell.

Sometimes you have to be provocative to stir people out of their comfort zone - no-one likes that happening to them (ask me!!) but it's better than being in a sleep of a thousand years. But I'd never trash anyone, and I try and be polite - and I always read the answers when I have time.

As for "a wicked sense of humour" ...hmmm - more often accidental I'm afraid .......... but I42 also has form in this area..............

[washoutt]

I tend to agree, that nowadays, it would be impossible to make a case for an air traffic facility -airport or heliport- within citycenters. It would make far more sense, I believe, to situate a/h ports at such places where public railtransport is available. Look at all major ports in the world, they invariably have a fast ground transportation to citycenters. It is therefore unbelievable, that Schiphol Airport is planning with Dutch Government, to divert all holiday flights (many ten thousands of flights) to a polder airfield with NO rail infrastructure. What a waste of money.
From a vertical point of view, a modern Rotodyne type could possibly alleviate the air traffic control conundrum in the at area, 20 kms from AMS, by rising above the the AMS traffic and then be on its way.

[PDR1]

I don't think there has *ever* been a viable tip-jet-powered heli has there? All the ramjet ones were too noisy and too thirsty even as military emergency evac platforms, and the pulse-jet ones were even worse.

PDR

[radioian]

When I lived in Hayes West London 20 years ago, I attended the final Fairey meet-up & spoke to a few retired staff there; one had a superb model of the Rotodyne,aboit 3ft long. Its rotor was connected to its engine airscrews, all correctly geared and such like.
He told us that the reason it wouldnt have been a success wasnt its engineering but its noise.It was incredibly loud by his account. When they flew the prototype over Fairey at Hayes, it shattered quite a few windows not only there but on houses in the surrounding roads. They were far from pleased & Fairey had to make good the repairs.....

[button push ignored]

Does anybody know exactly how and why it went up in flames in a hanger fire?
Does anybody think is was industrial sabotage?
If so, by whom?
Was the project finished at that point, was it in storage?

I never got to see it, but I did have the AirFix model.

Similar demise and circumstances to the other ‘Great British World Beater’ the Optica.

By a strange coincidence in today’s USA Today newspaper is an article about UberFly. The new proposed rehash of this idea. All that is old, is new again.

[Chris Royle]

Errr..destroyed in hangar (note, not hanger!) fire?
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.

[button push ignored]

Errr..destroyed in hangar (note, not hanger!) fire?
Where did you get that piece of duff information from?
This from Wikipedia;
After the programme was terminated, the prototype Rotodyne itself, which was government property, was dismantled and largely destroyed in fashion reminiscent to that of the Bristol Brabazon. A single fuselage bay, as pictured, plus rotors and rotorhead mast survived and are on display at The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare.


Urban legend debunked.

[Airbanda]

I agree tho that HS2 is a ridiculous waste of money

If HS2 were simply a means to reduce travel time between London and Birmingham I'd heartily agree. That's not the case though. The driver for HS2 is fact that current railways from Euston and Kings Cross are full to capacity and it's pretty well impossible to increase that capacity while keeping line running.

Once you accept need for a new railway then it makes no sense to run it at Victorian speeds.

[Heathrow Harry]

Well if we kept at Wilsonian speeds - 125 mph - it would cost a lot less and the time saving (givem you have to accelerate and deaccelerate) would be very little different

We could aslo invest in smarter signalling and the odd by-pass/multi level junction along the line to add capacity - or even longer trains...............

[Airbanda]

Well if we kept at Wilsonian speeds - 125 mph - it would cost a lot less and the time saving (givem you have to accelerate and deaccelerate) would be very little different

I doubt the saving between a line built from scratch for 125 would be much less than building for 180+.

We could aslo invest in smarter signalling and the odd by-pass/multi level junction along the line to add capacity - or even longer trains...............

Longer trains are a non starter - they're already as long as, or in some locations longer than, the platforms. Trying to rebuild infrastructure while keeping the railway running also verges on the impossible - as those of us commuting through the 1999 - 2004 upgrade of the West Coast line will witness.

[jimjim1]

longer trains...............

Taller trains...............

or faster shorter trains

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

[Heathrow Harry]

"Trying to rebuild infrastructure while keeping the railway running also verges on the impossible"

The mainl ine out of Paddington is currently seeing a lot of platforms being lengthened for Cross -Rail - and I believe SW lines towards Ascot & Reading are getting the same treatment - disruption - sure - but not major

[evansb]

Land on the roof of a skyscraper, problem solved:
https://i.imgur.com/xVqChTa.jpg

[BEagle]

The lack of joined-up thinking for the vanity project HS2 and direct Crossrail or Eurostar connections is so typical of muddled UK transport thinking...:ugh:

If anything needs to be binned, it's HS2!

[Wander00]

Well of course if the problem o be solved is time city centre-city centre, then IMHO Concorde was not "the answer". However, also IMHO, a superb feat of engineering

[Foxxster]

Fairey Rotodyne from the 1950’s. Never made it into production.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dkJOm1V77Xg

[mikemmb]

But it was a wonderful sight to behold, highlight of Farnborough at the time!

Sadly a good idea that was always going to struggle to overcome reality!

[chevvron]

Noisy bugger was the Rotodyne.
Only ever saw/heard it once.

[Asturias56]

Noisy doesn't really describe it - undoubtedly the worst I ever heard - made a B-47 or a Caravelle sound like a glider... I think it was the specific frequency of the "whine" from the prop tips that was really good at shaking the fillings out of your teeth .........

[DaveReidUK]

Reputedly the most efficient way ever invented of turning jet fuel into noise. :O

[KING6024]

I was lucky enough to be taken to the RAe Garden Party at White Waltham in 1957/8 and saw the Rotordyne fly. Very noisy but very impressive.

Colin

[BEagle]

The prototype was indeed noisy when flying in helicopter mode, but massive reductions in tip jet noise had been achieved by the time the government pulled any further funding.

Even before then, when the Rotodyne with modified tip jets visited Battersea Heliport hardly anyone knew it had been and gone. Don't forget that the airliners of the day were also VERY noisy. Even in the early '70s, the racket made by DC-8s, Boeing 707s, VC10s and Tridents was quite something!

[India Four Two]

In the early 60s, I lived about three miles from where the Rotodyne was being test flown at White Waltham. Running just along the northern boundary of the airfield is the GWR main line, where in those days, Kings and Castles were pounding along at 80-90 mph.

The tip-jet noise of the Rotodyne sounded exactly like the noise of a King or Castle at speed.

There is a very good History Channel documentary in four parts on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmaBLknJqss&t=15s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dhti1bLrZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPvnvfgxd40&t=422s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhAkVIQUVLw&t=19s

[Haraka]

Beags "Even before then, when the Rotodyne with modified tip jets visited Battersea Heliport hardly anyone knew it had been and gone."

There was a sound recording being made by an engineer on Battersea Bridge who gave a running commentary as the beast came along the Thames.
" Patter, patter , patter , Rotodyne etc... now approaching..... patter, patter..........." SPLAT!! .... "Pigeon has just shat on the microphone...patter patter ..... etc.etc."
Or so I was informed.

[VX275]

The Rotodyne didn't stand a chance once the Government decided that all British rotorcraft should be under the control of one company, Westlands.
SARO's Scout / Wasp survived, Bristol's Belvedere staggered on - just, but Fairey's Rotodyne was dropped as Westlands thought they had a competing design of their own. Interestingly this was a version of the Tilt Wing concept of Bristol's Chief Designer, Raoul Hafner who just happened to move from Bristol's to become head of development at Westlands.

[ViscountFan]

I was a pupil at Farnborough Grammar School in 1959 when the Rotodyne was exhibited at the SBAC show. The noise it made when it flew over meant all lessons stopped!

[Wander00]

Recall seeing, and hearing, it at White Waltham when a CCF cadet visiting the AEF

[creweite]

Is the same Dave Gibbings that I used to know when I worked at Faireys in the 50's