Cranwell Hawk Thread

[eal401]

So, what happened to it (unless I am blind?)

Little/nothing contained therein of threat to any BoI or disclosure to press.

[1588]

"Little/nothing contained therein of threat to any BoI or disclosure to press."

How do you know????

[eal401]

How do you know????
Well, by comparing the content of the thread with what happened.

[eal401]

Well, I was under the impression this was a discussion forum.

That thread was actually interesting to me with some of the side chatter. I was just curious as to why it had been abitarily deleted.

[rej]

Well I'll open up some discussion.

The BBC news page stated that the ac crashed on a car park. Was it occupied by parked vehicles, were any of them hit and if so were they insured for airside?

If not so insured, does the RAF cough up? Doubt it but, as some one who worked airside for many years and didn't bother with airside insurance (spanking accepted Sir!) I would be interested to hear any comments.

[kriskross]

Hi guys, an ex-service mate phoned me tonight with news of e-mail photos from another ex-mate, apparently showing a very bent Hawk in the car park of Cranwell control tower.

It looked as if both the bang seat guns had been fired ( the rods were well out ) and the fuselage had broken. The wing eading edge was very mangled.

Anyone know when or if this happened, hope everone was OK - tower pics showed broken windows too and the ATC Landrover was somewhat bent!!

[Al R]

It seems that the OP, no longer has a membership here, or at least when you click on his 'name', an invalid membership warning crops up. Thats a shame.

If you're reading this, all the best.

[PPRuNe Pop]

You need to know, and understand, that mods rarely delete entire threads. That's the first point.

Secondly, the original starter of the thread can delete it. When he does so it is gone forever. I would love to know the reason in this case though.

PPP

[trap one]

Yes A Hawk was off the normal operating area and yes the Guys got out. A previous thread gave quite A lot of detail but has since been removed by the original poster and so is therefore no longer on PPRUNE.
It came to rest on/in the ATC car park. The rest I will leave to people still in the know.

BBC coverage here.

BBC NEWS | England | Lincolnshire | Airmen injured in RAF jet crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7572833.stm)

[Karl Bamforth]

Some years ago a Chinook lost its rotor over the airfield at Odiham, the rotor landed in a carpark on a taxiway. Although airside I believe they paid up as it was a designated station carpark.

[Lurking123]

Rej, black Hawk parked squarely in middle of ATC car park. The photos I have seen would indicate that Sidney the scrap dealer will have a few more cars in his compound. I'm guessing there's also a need for a new ATC or Sappho Land Rover.

[spekesoftly]

Although it was comforting to note, from one of the photos originally posted, that the "station bicycles" escaped without damage! ;)

[Al R]

Are there still such things as SWO's treaders? What great bikes they were - single geared but well built and you could get a fair turn of speed out of them.

The SWOs bike pool.. do they still even exist?

[spekesoftly]

but well built and you could get a fair turn of speed out of them.

And some of them, I'm told, rattled like an old barn door! :E

[BEagle]

The old blue clearance chits always had a signature required from the Station Bicycle Store. Hardly anyone knew where that was, so unless they got a mate to sign (normal aircrew procedure), they used to ring up and find out.

What a jolly jape it was to amend the phone number in the directory to that of the station Queen Bee.......:E

Oh well, back to this stunningly tedious thread.....:rolleyes:

[BOAC]

I ALWAYS made sure I knew where the 'Station Bicycle' was kept, B:)

("stunningly tedious thread" -any better?)

[BEagle]

A little, BOAC!

Looks like the PPRuNe clock is out to lunch again......I really didn't post this at 0209 BST.

[A2QFI]

Years ago a Vulcan went off the runway at Waddo and finished up in the ATC car park. There was some banter about insurance claims, made by the car owners, who filled in the section re damage to other vehicle as "£ 3 million"

[scarecrow450]

The Hawk also demolished the pyro store, I've got a spare brick or 2.

[Wader2]

It was previously stated that the car park was not airside.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Just saw the pics today. Personally, I think they will need more filler than they ordered. I did feel very sorry for the poor folks who's cars got twated, but thats life.

Truely, looking at the shots, it was an amazingly lucky outcome.

Hope the Driver and his mate are OK and on the mend.

(DW- Best wishes mate, hope all turns out OK.)

Advo

[Lurking123]

I bet it made the chaps in ATC put down their cups of coffee!!

[ExBux]

Al R & Advo, thanks for the 'best wishes' - thankfully I am on the road to recovery, hopefully with no long term side-effects.

[Pure Pursuit]

I was chatting to your back seater a few days ago. Seemed to be in good spirits, bit of back ache...

Get well soon, the hangar party must be soon & it would be a shame for you to miss the inevitable banter from the guys!

[staplefordheli]

I remember the uncontained turbine failure on an F111 over Bicester in the last years of U-HYFD. Took out a large quantity of cars in an animal feed mill carpark as i recall got in the nationals and they altered the approach to avoid overstressing the old girls
Must have made an interesting claim to uncle Sam

Still waiting for the official public word on "our" GR7 down at Cottesmore the other month, athough I doubt it will be the same result as the local rumour mill.

[TDTWC]

The whole episode is a farce as it is being covered up all because it was a certain Wg Cdr (Reds I'm led to believe) in the seat with a pax! Nothing in RAF News, no information in the press anymore. :oh:

This is 2nd hand info I confess, but the source is good as he lives nearby

It's an embarrassment and my guess is the subsequent BOI will be hush hush too...

Rank does have it's privileges :=

Oh..did I say that out loud!!! :*

[L1A2 discharged]

TDTWC.

So thats 1 post as a probationary pruner and already exposing identities.

I am not knowledgable about this incident, other than the press and here, however I am no defender of the winged bretheren but:

What does it matter who was driving or riding in the back, as long as they got out safely.

As with all other incidents, wait for the BOI.

"This is 2nd hand info I confess, but the source is good as he lives nearby" simply doesn't cut it. :mad:

[Archimedes]

TDTWC - do you seriously think that the press is going to cover the crash of a Hawk (thankfully non-fatal) which occurred a fortnight ago? There's no story for them to run - particularly not when there was a fatal airliner crash to be going on with, along with an array of stories ranging from the British economy collapsing through to the fact that Kiera Knightly is awfully pretty...

Second, are you taking the customary silence accompanying the investigation to be a cover-up? Would you prefer lots of ill-informed and possibly wildly inaccurate speculation to be bandied about? Or do you know something more sinister about this?

Third - since there have been quite a few postings elsewhere suggesting mechanical issues with the u/c were to blame, it would appear that the undercarriage leg must have received a commission. No wonder the RAF's anxious to cover this up using the privilege of high rank to disguise the fact that it's having give bits of aeroplanes commissioned rank...

Fourth - if the rumours alluded to in three above are correct, you may well have libelled the pilot. Would you like to post the name and address of your solicitor here? It might save time later...:rolleyes:

[eal401]

TDTWC, I imagine the so-called "cover-up" would still be occuring irrespective of rank of the pilot. It is called "professionalism and courtesy" and letting due process take its course by showing respect for the BoI.

Back to the subject of my OP (and a bit OT), I forgot that threads can dissappear when the poster deletes the lead post. Reminded me of when I did the same and had a moderator reinstate the thread and berate me for deleting it, but that is another story. (And the reason I didn't post on PPRuNE for over 2 years)

Nice to be back and browsing this MA board, seems to be more grown up than the rest of the site.

[H Peacock]

I've now seen several pictures of the broken Hawk, but can't see any evidence of its wheels being down. I guess they could have been raised on the ground, or perhaps were not down in the first place.

An old friend of mine did a Hawk 'gear up' landing many years ago. Selected the gear Down in the front cockpit, but the rear selector (master) was on Up - not Front! Thankfully they also walked away in one piece.

[seakinger]

boring thread without pics tho'....

[BluntHawkMan]

TDTWC - It is my copy of the RAF news - Page 3...

[Runaway Gun]

Great work. Now could you offer your services to the official BOI to save them a waste of time and effort? :mad:

[in reserve]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/73ctr/HAWK.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/73ctr/HAWKvSCOOB.jpg

Had these sent through today.

[BEagle]

"And welcome home, sir. Undercarriage lever a bit sticky, was it sir?"

"Well, yes. As a matter of fact it was."

"Well I wouldn't tell the CO that, sir. Not if I were you"

[Dan D'air]

Hmmm..............First time I've seen the photos, but the airframe doesn't look too bad at all...........bit of Harry maskers and she'll be up in the air again in next to no time............


Chuffed that the crew got out safely.

[Chris Kebab]

TDTWC - Well done, that is one of the most twattish first posts I have ever seen. :D:D:D

[Lurking123]

The second picture tells it all. It is obvious that Harry Hawk crashed because the pitot probe was bent.:ok:

[RUCAWO]

Here is XX320 as it left Shawbury on its way to Cranwell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/SHA08a388.jpg

[goudie]

Been trying to work out what TDTWC stands for, I think I know the W & C!
Lurking, no assumptions ....please.

[Dan D'air]

Does it perchance stand for Trolling Despite Turning out to be a W & a C??

[goudie]

Close enough Dan

[Dan D'air]

:ok::ok::ok::D:D:D

[flipflopman RB199]

Knowing the back seater, I'm still trying to work out whether the seat ejected him from the aircraft, or whether it actually pushed the earth away :p:p


Flipflopman

[Bo Nalls]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/73ctr/HAWK.jpg

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but, why are the nosegear doors closed? Hard to tell, but there's also no evidence of the main gear being down. From reports on this site and elsewhere was this not a landing incident? Was this a wheels-up landing? The longitudinal scrapes under the fuselage could also add more evidence to this.

[Lurking123]

Interesting, I'll bin my pitot theory and go for......

Biggles turns final without gear. Caravan controller too busy reading Heat/Cosmopolitan/porn magazine and Biggles lands wheels up having not got a red flare. Pi$$ed off with ATC for not doing their job, Biggles dabs in a bit of left rudder, takes aim and then jumps out.

Of course, I could be very wrong.

(All comments completely tongue in cheek)

[taxydual]

Surely, if it was a wheels-up landing, the 'scandal' would have leaked by now. Cranners can't be that zip-lipped.

[Al R]

Lost track of this one, glad the blokes are ok.

IF there was a cock up (and I'm thinking about the principles, not the specifics) then some posts here are stupid, tasteless, tacky and downright innapropriate for many reasons, including legal ones. Crap like that belongs in The Sunday Sport. I hope that the person who posted what he did earlier, is ashamed. But if you're the sort of person who would post that anyway, then somehow I don't think shame is ever going to be an issue.

I have complained this week about Osbaston TV coverage, because BBC and Ch4 reported that the alleged murderer 'ran' around the house, in a 'frenzied' state and 'splashing' accelarant everywhere when no one knows what happened. One report even suggested the chronology of events. I am getting to hate spurious and speculative crap dressed up as information so lets have none of that here. Lets stick the knife in when its needed, lets raise issues and lets argue like hell when we have to, but lets not cause harm and injury to innocent people, reputations and family simply because we think we can.

No matter what happened here (I haven't got a clue, its not my place to speculate or be judgemental and frankly, its not that important to me), the crew is innocent until process has been served and passed judgement. Whatever happened on that day, I know who I'd rather break bread with given the choice - the process may not be always perfect, but its a damned site better than aircrew character assasination by spineless, anonymous wankers on the internet.

And if someone (as suggested) IS insider dealing and handing out imagined or real info as tittle tattle which only gets diluted further, then I hope the bastard is tracked down and strung up by their balls/clitoris.

[PICKS135]

Al R wrote

No matter what happened here (I haven't got a clue, its not my place to speculate or be judgemental and frankly, its not that important to me), the crew is innocent until process has been served and passed judgement. Whatever happened on that day, I know who I'd rather break bread with given the choice - the process may not be always perfect, but its a damned site better than aircrew character assasination by spineless, anonymous wankers on the internet.


:D:D:D:D:D:D

The BOI will decide what happened. All that should matter at the moment is when things went to ratsh1t, the MB cloud avoidance system worked, and 2 people hobbled away alive.

[Lurking123]

Al R, someone touch a nerve?

Anyone who bothers to read this forum needs to take serious note of the words in red at the bottom of each page. You only need to have a look at the BA038 discussion (which in most respects is far more interesting and relevant than another Hawk steaming off the side of a runway) to realise that there is a load of crap (self included) spouted here. :)

Picks - agreed. An additional question that needs to be asked is about the safeguarding of manned facilities around an aerodrome. There is little/no doubt that those in ATC had a bit of a close call.

[MAINJAFAD]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but, why are the nosegear doors closed? Yes you are, noted it as well. However, its the BoI's job to work out the reason why, not yours, mine or anybody else on an open public forum.

[Al R]

Lurking said: Al R, someone touch a nerve?


Possibly, another coffee wouldn't have gone amiss before I wrote that. :ok:

But even though I might have mellowed it a little, I still mean it. Free speech and publishing comes with rights, but also responsibilities, and just because there's a thread about BA038, does that mean 2 wrongs make a right? I'm not suggesting censureship, but more a sense of responsibility. Instead of jumping to the defence of daft posts, lets spare a thought for the people it was aimed at.

I don't know the crew from Adam, but neither I imagine, did the poster. I know the military is a tough dog eat dog environment and no place for shrinking violets, but if you're not man enough to level accusations to someone's face, then it speaks more of you if you strike up a new identity here to do it.

And finally, when I was learning to lead men, my section commander told me about keeping counsel: "Never slag someone else off for getting lost, having an ND or being a fat bastard - you never know when its going to happen to you". If TDTWC is aircrew, then he could do with remembering the logic. If he isn't, as I suspect, then when he's walked a mile in somoene else's boots, he might just be worth the steam off their sh#t?

[1588]

"However, its the BoI's job to work out the reason why, not yours, mine or anybody else on an open public forum. "

I made exactly the same comment on the original thread that had been deleted and my stance remains.

I am dumbfounded by the stupidity of some of the posters here and hope that all of them aren't current aircrew who should know better.

I have heard that the SIB are investigating the leaked pictures too so hopefully those who deserve it will be appropriately "rebriefed".

[Double Zero]

I don't know the crew - just happy they are safe - but one thing remarkable about this incident is that comments immediately went to banter or worse, with little or no speculation ( it's a rumour network, & in the best instance may even lead to lessons learned, not finger pointing ) - as to what caused the crew to get out...

A few little points -

No matter how it appears, the thing didn't land vertically like something out of Hotshots, so I'm not surprised by longitudinal scrapes.

Why is the tailfin so badly damaged - explosion on impact ? Unusual.

What is the black tape around the pitot ?

Not looking for conspiracies here, though one problem with this picture ( situation ) springs to mind...

It's quite normal for shots of incidents to be out in the public quickly, so the delay then hysteria seem begging conspiracy theorists; I think I can guess roughly what happened, but will not bother stating it here, and the world isn't waiting for my opinion !

[Pure Pursuit]

SIB...Leaked pictures, why are the Army involved? I think P&SS may be weeing in the wind when you take into account the approved photos shown by the BBC. Perhaps the Reds are expecting a little too much protection, if you are RAFAT???

I seem to remember you making a rather silly post on the last thread, which resulted in a little flaming from the guys. Neither this thread (or the last one for that matter) come across as a witch hunt so, chill out people! It's just a bunch of guys guessing and no posts will have any impact on the BOI. I very much doubt that any of the board members are reading this!

Personally, I blame the bird in the tower for getting her tits out whilst DW was on short finals. Might have got away with it if the back seater hadn't shouted, "F**K ME they are huge!" at 50ft...

No wonder the jet veered towards the tower.;)

[Op_Twenty]

2008 guys, not the 1950's - stop all this 'wait 'till the BOI' stuff, you're posting on a 'RUMOUR' site. If you don't like the RUMOURS go post somewhere else. Find the TRUTH forum and post there, as far as I'm concerned it seems reasonably obvious what happened but why? I don't know but I'm as happy as everyone else to speculate.

Rumour - Idle speculation, general talk or opinions of uncertain reliability.

Questions?

[scarecrow450]

Well at least it'll give the SIB something to do, will their brain on a chain be house trained ?

Just noticed the title of PPRUNE includes 'Rumour Network' guess some others did'nt !

[longer ron]

Double Zero... I think the 'black tape' you refer to may be the rubber sealing assembly (pitot to nose seal) which has slipped forward in the excitement.

regards b

[Double Zero]

Longer On,

( great callsign BTW, some people think I'm a James Bond wannabee while I was in fact referring to Dastardly & Muttley's car ! )

I'm used to seeing Hawks in every stage of build - they were not a Wart On product, no matter what they would have one believe - and that doesn't look like the pitot / nose seal.

I am not for a second suggesting it's relevant, just wonder what it is - a bit late for blanking off.

Still, all sorts of wierd things happen in accidents, I have been in the wrong place at the wrong time as passenger in a few car accidents where some silly things happened which seemed at the edges of the laws of physics - anyway the end result was exactly the same as that film of the display Mig's colliding, and the reported ' later injury ' to the guy responsible !

I would add that the chap who crashed me in a car was the idiot, the Mig pair just got unlucky while performing a very skilled & tasking manouvre -

in the meantime, is there a contract going to supply loo rolls and 'calmer down pills ' to Cranwell ATC ?!

Please don't take that seriously, I would think it was a bad shake up or worse for those in ATC, not dissimilar from taking a large missile near hit.

[dick.tracy]

Yes, the "black tape" is, as suggested, the sealing rubber from the pitot/nose join. I have replaced many. There is a reinforced bolt hole through the middle, and it bolts just above the nose lamp assembly. The lamp is visibly trashed, so no surprise, it has migrated down the pitot head. In other words, normal.

Oh, and onother thing - if photos are to be believed, the photo of the A/C taking off had both crew wearing white helmets - If, as has been suggested, the pilot was RAFAT, he would, I am sure, be wearing his RAFAT "arrowed " helmet.

For info, the aircraft stored for future Red Arrows use are at RAF Shawbury, not Valley as many may believe...

[Double Zero]

Dick,

Thanks for that, as I say strange things happen in accidents.

For interest ( ? ) my father was in charge of fitting the 'Arrows smoke pods - later for export customers we had many adventures, some surprisingly serious, trying to generate smoke 'on the cheap' by their request with the relatively cool running Adour.

As for the Cranwell accident - I am NOT a journo BTW, though would rather like to be, not least so I might present a sensible view of such things or not present at all, have done similar things in a past life.

The blatantly obvious question here is not even why did the crew get out - and I hope they are well - but rather why did the aircraft end up where it did - there, I who cannot be militarily b----d have said it.

There could be many perfectly good reasons of course, completely beyond the pilot's control.

I happened to know someone who ejected from a Hunter in trouble, thinking it was over wide clear fields - the thing managed to find a building to crash into, killing 3 people.

He never spoke of it ( I was briefed so did not mention it ) and as far as I know, though exonerated he never flew again, though did / does ( I should think retired now, and I hope happily ) perform a vital training support & much more.

[scottyhs]

Interesting, I'll bin my pitot theory and go for......

Biggles turns final without gear. Caravan controller too busy reading Heat/Cosmopolitan/porn magazine and Biggles lands wheels up having not got a red flare. Pi$$ed off with ATC for not doing their job, Biggles dabs in a bit of left rudder, takes aim and then jumps out.

Of course, I could be very wrong.

(All comments completely tongue in cheek)

All agreed with, But as he was on Rwy 27 it was probably more right rudder than left to aim for the ATC tower! :ok:

[Jackonicko]

Al R

While you were leaping to more shotgun-coverage journo bashing (oft but not always deserved) did it occur to you that those who've seen the CCTV footage of Osbaston might have seen the murderer "in a 'frenzied' state" and "'splashing' accelarant" as he made preparations to set the out-buildings ablaze?

Remembering the Mull of Kintyre and some other recent BoI's I'd personally be cautious as to the inevitable reliability of 'process'.

As a general point, however, I would share your distaste for "character assasination by spineless, anonymous wankers on the internet" - though I'd say that speculation that avoids identification or direct criticism of the crew is entirely legitimate on a rumours network.

Expecting everyone to observe purdah until the BoI reports is probably unnecessary and not necessarily desirable.

[longer ron]

Hi Double Zero
Yes I used to work at a rather pretty aerodrome nr cranleigh as well,we probably know each other ! in fact I would guess that we live within 7 miles of each other.

cheers LR

[Al R]

Jcko said;

Al R

While you were leaping to more shotgun-coverage journo bashing (oft but not always deserved) did it occur to you that those who've seen the CCTV footage of Osbaston might have seen the murderer "in a 'frenzied' state" and "'splashing' accelarant" as he made preparations to set the out-buildings ablaze?

Remembering the Mull of Kintyre and some other recent BoI's I'd personally be cautious as to the inevitable reliability of 'process'.

As a general point, however, I would share your distaste for "character assasination by spineless, anonymous wankers on the internet" - though I'd say that speculation that avoids identification or direct criticism of the crew is entirely legitimate on a rumours network.

Expecting everyone to observe purdah until the BoI reports is probably unnecessary and not necessarily desirable.


The police mentioned him as being seen on CCTV as 'walking calmly', which was why I baulked at the shabby reporting.

Those who excuse the rumours because 'thats what it says on the MB Header' need perhaps to remind themselves that '.. statutory rights are not affected'. Yes, we would all tittle tattle about this with people face to face, but in the real world, we'd do it with people we knew and who had a similar sphere of influence and contact. Here, ANYONE can see what is being written and claimed. Would those who excuse rumour mongering go into a restaurant full of strangers and go from table to table potentially, slandering people they didn't know?

[NutLoose]

Interestingly enough there are pictures of it departing on Britmodeller, one of the young lads was on ATC camp and was taking pictures when it departed

In his own words and the pictures are his copyrights, just hope he does not mind me sharing them with you.

"The Hawk was on delivery from storage at Shawbury ,where by chance I was on camp with the cadets and taking pics when it took off so here are the last photos of the aircraft before it crashed."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/SHA08a388.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/SHA08a389.jpg

[fastener]

No wonder it crashed as judging by the picture posted previously, the fuselage burst open revealing it was stuffed full of bricks. How would you miss that on the AF/BF?

[RUCAWO]

nterestingly enough there are pictures of it departing on Britmodeller, one of the young lads was on ATC camp and was taking pictures when it departed

In his own words and the pictures are his copyrights, just hope he does not mind me sharing them with you.

"The Hawk was on delivery from storage at Shawbury ,where by chance I was on camp with the cadets and taking pics when it took off so here are the last photos of the aircraft before it crashed."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/SHA08a388.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/sniperUK/UAS%2007/SHA08a389.jpgThanks for the compliments but I am not so young :} I was staff on the camp and taking pics of the cadets getting flown in Squirrels when the Hawk left ,the same pics are posted here a couple of pages back.

[ShyTorque]

No wonder it crashed as judging by the picture posted previously, the fuselage burst open revealing it was stuffed full of bricks. How would you miss that on the AF/BF?

I'll think you'll find the bricks were left there by the crew, shortly before ejection....... :E

[Inshala]

Just wanted to respond to those assuming a wheels-up landing. You can retract the undercarriage on the ground in the event of a serious emergency. It is an emergency system on the jet. I'm not saying this course of action was taken by the pilot but lets not jump to conclusions. S*** happens and they both got out. Posted as just something to consider.

[HaveQuick2]

Nutloose wrote "the pictures are his copyrights"

Is that correct?

The pictures were of a Crown assett, taken on Crown property, are they not then Crown Copyright?

I'm not saying that is so, I am just wondering.

[TACAN]

Some legalese (sic) for you to consider :

The general rule about first ownership of copyright is that the author is the first owner.

If you create a copyright work, you become the 'author' so in the case of any photographs you take you are the first owner. However, an example where this may not be the case is if it was you who pressed the camera button and someone else who decided things like the camera angle, exposure and so on.

This general rule about first ownership of copyright resting with the 'author' is, however, overridden in the case of photographs which are made by an employee in the course of employment; in this case, the employer is the first owner of copyright subject to any agreement to the contrary.

Hope this helps.

TAC

[Man-on-the-fence]

The general rule as I understand it is this. If you are a serving member of Her Majestys Armed Forces and you take an image while in Uniform (on or off duty) then its Crown Copyright. So yes technically if you get home from work and take a quick snap of the kids when youy get home before getting changed its CC (not sure they'd enfore that one though:} )
Think about it, if what HQ2 said is true then ALL the pictures taken at airshows would be Crown Copyright.

[Double Zero]

As an ex-photographer for BAe and others, I think we're getting a little confused here.

As I understand it, anything I took for the company, in the company's time, is their copyright.

If a flying saucer lands on the bonnet of my car on the way home and I photograph it, that's my business.

Seriously, the issue must be the timing of getting out, and heading / other people involved, which is presumably why this has 'gone political' so quickly...

There is the issue of forces personnel being paid every hour, all week - after a very unpleasant accident the aircraft in question was photographed by an American serviceman, who tried to claim copyright to his photo's !

As I was photographer on the BoI I quickly convinced the RAF officer leading the inquiry - who despite his rank didn't know where he stood on this - that as a serviceman this chap had no rights ( or for that matter morals ) whatsoever.

[scarecrow450]

Did the photographer have a photographic permit issued by the RAFP flight at Shawbury ? Even then permission is required for publication in any magazine or electronic means. :eek:

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Well, whatever happened, the 'gear' worked after take off. :ok:

Advo

[Nige321]

It must be true...

It's in the Daily Mail... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054687/Pictured-The-dramatic-scene-Red-Arrows-Hawk-jet-crash-landed-smashed-RAF-base.html)

More pics, including one of the alleged driver...

And no, I don't read it...

Often...

Much...:ok:

N

[taxydual]

Bit of a giveaway, copyrighting a photo. Alistair Grant (whoever he is) should be expecting a call from the men in black at any mo,,,,,,,,,,Providing P and SS have been let into the Cranners secret.

[unclenelli]

GMTV are only just reporting the incident today!!!

[TMJ]

I note there's a photo of what was left of the Hawk in the carpark in today's Sun with some headline along the line of You can't park that jet here.

Well, there were no Telegraphs in the Mess at breakfast...

[teeteringhead]

And the Sun (one occasionally scans it to see what the troops are reading) described it as a "botched landing" .... I might just speak to my lawyers about that if I were the pilot.......

[Wader2]

An additional question that needs to be asked is about the safeguarding of manned facilities around an aerodrome. There is little/no doubt that those in ATC had a bit of a close call.

Interesting. Now what would one suggest? Ejector seat in the runway caravan? Retractable tower? What criteria for manned facilities?

We have had Lightnings in crew rooms, U2s in Met Offices, more than one aircraft in a control tower, aircraft on public roads and even aircraft hitting aircraft.

Apart from the costs of increasing the landing area and demolishing and rebuilding all the structures further out, we simplay have insufficient real estate on this already crowded island.

[Lurking123]

Dunno, just a musing. I've certainly been places where people are far closer to an active runway without an operational need (Northolt's Officers' Mess and the old ATC Regional HQ springs to mind). JSP *** used to be very specific; the RAF was quite good at having a siting board, ignoring the document and building/using things regardless.

[NutLoose]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f391/les350/20082008002.jpg

WHAT? Double Glazing and plastic handles, no brass to polish or nice draughty window frames....... What is this mans AirForce coming too? When I was a lad............:p

Your getting soft I tell ya......soft...............;)


Pic posted on Britmodeller..

[The Real Slim Shady]

Very shabby bit of parking.

there's a free space next to the blue car ;)

And why do people doing recruitment allow folks to become pilots when their names are obviously too big for the space in a logbook!!

[PeteBee]

I was always surprised by the proximity of the ATC to the main runway with nothing in the way like some stations where there are pans and dispersals between the towerand the runways so I'm not surprised in the least that the Hawk ended up in the car park.

It's reported in the Telegraph that the Hawk was being ferried to the Reds for use and an eyewitness stated that "as the aircraft touched down, it's undercarriage gave way and it lost control and swerved to the right. Two loud bangs followed as the aircrew ejected."

Thank goodness for MB Zero-Zero Death Dodgers (and conveniently placed pyro stores and Landies)

Although thinking about it, in order to have landed on 27 and ended up in the Cranners ATC car park and have "swered to the right" then it's done a massive swerve as shown below

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4285/crannersatcio4.jpg

Note: this is in no way the actual path of the downed hawk - merely an illustration

[Pontius Navigator]

Why is the tailfin so badly damaged - explosion on impact ? Unusual.

Serial 37 has a good picture of the tailfin which shows no damage on the spin. Is it possible the tailfin was damaged as it demolished the pyro store?

Looking at other bits, wings, nose, tailplane, it does indeed look like part assembled bits from an airfix kit. Should be easy to rebuild (at least for the accident investigators).

[goudie]

At Scampton the 'Gin Palace' was not very far from the runway (probably the same elsewhere). Stood outside one day to watch a Vulcan land, minus nosewheel. I don't think we techies thought too much of the close proximity. That's the way it was.

[taxydual]

I was a Caravan Controller on the late '70s, early 80's. Felt as safe as houses, until an F1-11 decided to cement Anglo-US relations with a very, very low overshoot. Never knew broken glass could defy gravity. Enjoyed the slab of beer the crew 'apologised' with though, thanks guy's.

Being sat 60' from the touchdown area didn't seem dangerous at the time.

Hmm, the daft things you would put up with then. What would the H and S brigade think now?

The Vulcan Vomit. 6 Vulc's on a scramble. The ground shook, the caravan shook, you shook, vomit followed. Happy days.

[taxydual]

Further to my last. My old mate (also ex-caravan controller) and I, have been perusing this site. (Please excuse us, we have been celebrating B of B privately, so many lamps have been swung and sandbags pulled).

We've discovered numerous poster's whose 'Finals, Three Greens' calls we have witnessed. OK, RAF Yorkshire mainly. Leeming CFS, RFS, RNEFTS (ignore the 3 greens call for them). Linton, Dishforth and Topcliffe (good old Navy).

We've taken drink, but to you guy's who have entertained the pair of us for years (and frightened us a few times), a hearty CHEERS and STAY SAFE.

Way off thread, I know, but I hope the Mods will accomodate two drunken idiots this once.

Regards to all.

Per Ardua Ad Astra.

[nacluv]

Just a quick question (or two). Where have the 2 photos depicting the ground 'skid path' disappeared to? Have these been deemed to be sensitive, whereas the detailed photos of the wreckage have not?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

I Know this is a 'rumour' site, but we really should avoid wild ass guesses!

IF it was a 'wheels up', there's lots of possible ways to do that in a Hawk, IF it was a wheels colapse - Same, IF it was manual overide- Same.


So......... Please all be happy and pleased that the crew are bruised, but generally OK. Oh, and it doesn't matter a 'Figg' who the crew were.

We'll all dive for the nice glossy when it hits the crewroom table in...... 17 years! :rolleyes:

Advo

PS: FSC and FLAC candidates will probably get a good brief.:D
PPS: Some great shots tho, anyone for a caption comp?

[Lurking123]

PPPS "Please all be happy and pleased" that those in ATC/GRMS are also "generally OK".;)

[sitigeltfel]

We have had Lightnings in crew rooms

I recall the pic of the Lite with its nose buried in the office building, a bit fast on the taxiway along with brake probs IIRC. Anyone got a copy of it that they can post?

[kokpit]

I recall the pic of the Lite with its nose buried in the office building, a bit fast on the taxiway along with brake probs IIRC. Anyone got a copy of it that they can post?

Was that at Coltishall? I believe a Rolls-Royce Rep was presented with a copy on his leaving in the early 80's, along with a mounted Shack Pee-Tube and a Merlin piston ashtray!

[MAINJAFAD]

I think its in Mick Jennings ‘RAF Coltishall Fighter Station’ Book, if not the Radar Museum at Neatishead were given Coltishall's photo archive when the station shut and I've seen a few photo's of the 145 Sqn/226 OCU single seater embedded in the office area of one of the hangers within that collection.

[ricardian]

The Scarborough Evening News (http://tinyurl.com/5r4u7o) has covered this event, complete with photograph

[Lurking123]

I'm sat in the pub earlier this evening. One of the regulars (someone I have shared beer with for 5+ years) a civilian engineer at Shawbury, collars me as an RAF type and recounts a tail of a Reds 'pilot' who didn't quite make the grade but still has a 'relationship' with the team. Chap took off from Strawberry and, some time later, forgets to put his wheels down on landing at Cranners. He jumps out, neglects to tell the chap (engineer?) in the back that it is time to leave but, luckily, everything turns out OK.

Now I treat this individual with the degree of cynicism he deserves. However, I am somewhat concerned that this is the sort story that is being percolated.

Please feel free to admonish me for spreading the 'word', but i think it is all to easy for us to only to hide behind our own perceptions.

[hoodie]

Now I treat this individual with the degree of cynicism he deserves. However, I am somewhat concerned that this is the sort story that is being percolated.


I don't believe you when you say that you are "concerned".

If you were, you wouldn't "percolate" it a damn sight further than those who happened to be beaking into your jabber in the lounge bar of your local. :ugh::=

[Pure Pursuit]

Lurking,

if what you're mate is saying indeed true, his story neglects one major fact...

If the wheels were not down, upon impact, the electrics would have cut out denying the crew the use of radios so, the pax's first and only indication of the pilots intentions may well have been the initiation of the front seats fireworks. :ugh:

In other words, your mate is talking out of his arse when he suggests that DW 'neglected' to give his backseater a heads up.