Jet Orientation Courses

[jamie230985]

I have been researching jobs for when I complete my fATPL and came across The Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators (GAPAN). On there site they carried out a survey with 7 UK airlines about what they were looking for in low hour pilots.

"Key responses:

Low hour pilot applicants can expect to have to complete a Jet introduction course before joining an airline.
Airlines commonly require university entrance level education of newly qualified pilots.
An interview and a simulator check are the most commonly used pilot selection methods.
Some airlines expressed concern that many new pilots lack knowledge of commercial operations and/or the realities of the airline career."

In the industry many people (in flight schools especially) have told me not to bother with a JOC or similar as they are expensive and you gain little from them. Obviously an MCC is essential however I was wondering two things,

1) What is the general feeling on JOC's? (are they useful or essential etc...)

2) If I was to consider doing one, where is the best school to approach?

Thanks!!

[Callsign Kilo]

Some airlines, ie BA and Flybe have introduced the JOC as a pre-typerating bridge course in order to bring the cadet 'up to speed' with the environment in which they will be operating. It also gives them an idea of how they will cope with the rating, and therefore has been used as a process of elimination to those judged to be below the grade. Similar thing happens at CTC as well.
IMO, this is all very nice if you don't have to fork out for one and also have a probable job at the end of it. It extemely doubtful that an unassessed, non-airline job affiliated JOC will do anything to bolster your CV because as like the MCC, its not a pass or fail course. I managed to pass a 737 TR without a JOC and I had only experienced 2 hours in a jet sim prior to the training. Therefore I'd stay away from the JOC and save your money, especially with today's employment market. If you do have a sim assessment, hire a sim for a few hours. This will give you an idea of your ability.

[Night_fr8]

CallsignKilo
You are under a misapprehension that the MCC is not a pass fail course.
You can and some do fail the MCC course, they are usually those who arrive with the attitude that its "Just a tick in the box" and do not prepare for each day as it comes, usually leaving them struggling especially in a Jet (FNPT2) sim.

As an MCCI I can say this is rare, but at the end of the day if the answer to "Would I put my family with that person on an average day" is No then they fail.
But that is equally my failure as theirs as I did not get the message across during training, or a colleague had the same problem.

JOC courses are very useful and where possible should be taken as a continuation after MCC.
The course which is a follow on to the MCC in the organisation I work for goes much more into depth with modern jet handling, and route flying, which several students have endorsed as instrumental in getting them through their subsequent simulator assessment.

If you can find a course MCC/JOC which offers a discount if you take both, then it would be unwise just to go for the MCC portion.
I know to many of you cost is a factor, but being well prepared for your chosen career is priceless.

Many fATPL students would love to go to an airline flying Jets or Turboprops, but currently there are less and less jobs available.
If the JOC can give the candidate that edge then it has been well worth while.
Should the only jobs be in the Airtaxi / Instructing fields then it may be worth delaying the JOC until the airline market picks up, after all you might have saved some money by then, to pay for the course.

Callsignkilo congrats on passing your Type Rating were you another of the growing numbers of SSTR's.

[Fireboy]

I can confirm you can fail the MCC. I was at Oxford last year and my sim partner was refused a completion certificate, I take it this is the same as a fail!

It's good to see Oxford didn't just issue the certificate because he attended the course. After a change of instructor Oxford started to film the sim sessions as evidence, just to cover their ars**s!

[dwshimoda]

Jamie,

Another thing to think about is doing the MCC on a jet sim, instead of a FNPT II sim thus getting a kind of JOC included. For example, I did my MCC on a 757-200 Cat D sim. It was just over £1,000 more than doing it on a fixed base sim. I reasoned that £1,000 divided by 20 hours was £50 an hour to get a shed load of proper sim experience.

Callsign Kilo correctly points out that you could always hire a sim for a couple of hours, but that will also cost in the region of £1,000 - and you only get 2 hours.

When I had my first sim assesment I was in a much happier place because I had some idea of what I was going to be up against, how the aircraft handled, and what the sim itself was like - it made a huge difference, and I am now lucky enough to fly the B757 for real.

I also hugely enjoyed the MCC, loved the full flight sim experience and gained an awful lot from it. Don't think it's impossible fail, and treat it as a very important first stepping stone to flying a multi crew aircraft - it's completely different to what you are currently used to.

DW.

[jamie230985]

I have toyed with the idea of doing a joint MCC/JOC course however the company I currently study with (Cabair) do not offer this and i have been told to ensure I complete the entire training with one provider as it looks better for prospective employers.

Is this a correct assumption that should I opt to change training providers to do a joint course it could hamper my chances of successful employment in the initial stages?

[dwshimoda]

I don't believe it makes much of a difference, unless you are only going to apply to Flybe and BA! I was modular, used three different schools (one for distance ATPL, one for PPL / CPL / IR) and one for MCC) Of all the people I know who have recently got jobs, most have used several schools.

The market is changing, and nothing is certain, but it is mainly the schools themselves that would like you to believe you cannot go anywhere else - it's in their interests!

Search these forums - there's loads of useful advice (and a load of crap advice) but you'll soon sift through it, and find out what you need to know.

Good luck - and don't be afraid to change schools.

(BTW Cabairs Alsim is good, but for not much more you could easily be in a full flight Airbus / Boeing sim, learning the basics as well as doing your MCC)

DW.