Otters in HK?

[Sicer]

Entrepreneur floats plan for seaplanes to Macau
Scheduled service awaiting approval from government
Gary Cheung SCMP July 14, 2008

www.waterfrontair.com (http://www.waterfrontair.com/)

Seaplanes flying over Victoria Harbour and taking passengers to and from Macau will become a reality in the foreseeable future if the government approves a plan to relaunch the flights, which form part of the collective memory of Hongkongers.

WaterfrontAir, a firm founded by Canadian entrepreneur Michael Agopsowicz, plans to operate a scheduled seaplane service between a new Kai Tak Waterfront Aerodrome and the Pak On ferry terminal near Macau's Cotai Strip.
The company intends to use a fleet of 18-seater DHC-6 Twin Otter floatplanes for the flights, which would take about 20 minutes.
It plans to create a licensed water aerodrome opposite the old Kai Tak airport runway.

Passengers would be taken to the Kowloon City ferry pier after the seaplanes landed.
The Tourism Commission and the Tourism Board have given their backing to the proposal because it would enhance Hong Kong's appeal as a city with diversity and fun. But the project first needs to pass an environmental-impact assessment.

Mr Agopsowicz, also director of the company, said he would look for investors for the project and planned to commission an environmental-impact assessment and a noise- impact assessment in the second half of the year.

The firm plans to charge about HK$1,500 for a one-way trip, compared with HK$2,200 to HK$2,400 for a helicopter trip between Hong Kong and Macau or about HK$150 for a jetfoil. It plans to run 20 flights a day. The firm estimates 150,000 visitors will take the trips every year.
Mr Agopsowicz said he discussed the concept with Permanent Secretary for Transport and Housing Francis Ho Suen-wai on March 18.

In a letter to Mr Agopsowicz on May 5, the bureau said: "From the aviation point of view, we have no objection in principle to your idea, but the feasibility of the idea hinges on the satisfactory resolution of a wide range of technical issues." A bureau spokeswoman said these issues concerned the feasibility of the idea from the perspectives of civil aviation, district planning, land-use planning, environmental impact and interface with marine activities.

"The Tourism Commission considers that an alternative means of fast transportation to Macau should be a [welcome] addition to enhance connectivity and choice. The seaplanes championed by you look attractive and elegant, and are good for leisure travel," the bureau said in its letter to Mr Agopsowicz.

The commission was of the view that the plan would enhance Hong Kong's appeal.
In a letter to Mr Agopsowicz last month, Tourism Board executive director Anthony Lau Chun-hon said: "Not only can the service offer users the opportunity to view Hong Kong's spectacular skyline and cityscape over Victoria Harbour, it can also strengthen Hong Kong's image as a major cosmopolitan city."

Scheduled seaplanes between Hong Kong and Macau were operated between the 1930s and 1950s.
Mr Agopsowicz said seaplanes did not have a significant environmental impact. "They compare very favourably to conventional motorised boats in terms of air and water pollution," he said.

He added that the DHC-6 planes he planned to deploy for the services were much quieter than helicopters and the service would operate in daytime only.
Mr Agopsowicz said seaplane services did not require a huge amount of investment and he estimated that the start-up investment for the project would be below US$5 million.

Bruce Liu Sing-lee, Kowloon City district councillor representing the Kai Tak constituency, said he would support the proposal if the noise level was acceptable.
"I think the seaplane services would create a substantial number of job opportunities for the neighbourhood and the whole Kowloon City district," Mr Liu said.

[Sicer]

Glory days of flying boats before Kai Tak runway opened
Gary Cheung July 14, 2008

www.waterfrontair.com/news.htm (http://www.waterfrontair.com/news.htm)

Scheduled seaplane services were a vital fixture in Victoria Harbour for more than two decades starting from the 1930s, and some of the floatplanes flying between Hong Kong and Macau had a special mission - shuttling gold between the two colonies.

James Ng, an expert on Hong Kong's aviation history and a member of the Hong Kong Collectors Society, said the seaplane service was introduced when the Hong Kong Keeper, a plane owned by Pan American Airways, flew from Macau on April 28, 1937.

The seaplane picked up passengers in Macau who travelled on another Pan Am seaplane, China Keeper, from San Francisco to Manila via Macau. "Passengers who intended to travel to mainland China took other flights in Hong Kong after arriving in the city," Mr Ng said.

"Pan Am's seaplane flight was an American airline's first provision of a commercial flight service between Hong Kong, the United States and China," he said.

It took about an hour for a flight between Hong Kong and Macau.
Pan Am operated two flights every week until Japan's invasion in 1941.
Seaplanes were more common in the period because they required only a stretch of water for a runway.

"Seaplanes are part of the collective memory of Hong Kong and have a long and dynamic cultural history," said Michael Agopsowicz, who plans to reintroduce the seaplane service to Macau.

Macao Air Transport Company (Matco), which was set up by entrepreneurs Sydney de Kantzow and Roy Farrell in the late 1940s, transported gold and a few passengers between the two cities until the early 1960s. The pair were also founders of Cathay Pacific (SEHK: 0293).

According to the Cathay Pacific website, Catalina seaplanes were brought into service with the airline in late 1946, primarily to shuttle gold between Hong Kong and Macau.

The lack of an airstrip in Macau in those days meant landing on water was the only option.

On July 16, 1948, a Catalina flying boat, Miss Macao, which was chartered to Matco for flights between Hong Kong and Macau, became the world's first commercial victim of an air hijacking.

Miss Macao was making a routine flight that day with 26 passengers and crew when four hijackers demanded that the plane be taken to a remote area. The hijackers had heard tempting reports of cargoes of gold bullion and planned to hold up the Catalina and divert it to another location where it could be looted.

But the plan failed when one of the hijackers shot the pilot, whose body slumped across the controls, causing the aircraft to dive into the sea. Twenty-six people died. The only survivor was the leader of the hijackers.

Mr Ng said the seaplane service operated between Hong Kong and Macau until the late 1950s. "Seaplane services became obsolete after the opening of the Kai Tak runway in 1958," said Mr Ng, author of a book on Hong Kong's aviation history.

[ACMS]

Sounds ok.

I'm not float endorsed but wouldn't the Harbour be a little rough for a small Twin Otter float Plane? Even around the old Kai Tak runway.

The Harbour can get a good swell running as well.

[ACMS]

They could, but their floats would melt with all the pollution!!

Why don't they make a 2000' RWY on the old Kai Tak site. The south east end of the old 13/31 would be enough for a Twotter.

How long would a Twotter need anyway?

[Night Watch]

Full pax and return fuel... 500m max

[ACMS]

ok then they only need to make a nice piece of Asphalt about 1600' long on the end of the old runway and they can forget about sea planes.

[Cool banana]

Wasn’t the asphalt on the old Kai Tak runway ripped up last year?

[ACMS]

I dunno, but MAKE a new piece 1600' long and 80' wide. Simple

[bekolblockage]

I dunno, but MAKE a new piece 1600' long and 80' wide.

You gotta be kidding. The paperwork itself would cover more area than that. :rolleyes::
Float planes in the Eastern part of the Harbour? - ain't gunna happen.

[ACMS]

seems it might just happen, read the posts at the top again.

I propose they should use a little tiny bit of the old rwy.

[buggaluggs]

Easy, if you had them on amphib floats, and the wx and sea state is good, land on the harbour, wx ****e, land at the airport. Could work ;)

[ACMS]

Where would they land in Macao?

ahhhhhhh try the airport, it's under utilized anyway.

[The Wraith]

Where would they land? Aren't the floats enough of a clue?!!!!!
....................incoming!!!!!!:ok:

[LapSap]

I can see the response from CAD now - "CANNOT".:ugh:

[ACMS]

yes, my I suggestion is to ditch ( pardon the pun ) the floats idea and just use a normal runway at the old Kai Tak site (1600' x 60' ) and then land at the current Macao airfield. Simple

buggalugs suggested an Amphib........maybe an even better idea.:ok:

[badairsucker]

ACMS, but the cost of operating to an airfield would put the price up and then become a non starter.

[Sicer]

Here is something I found at www.hkadb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20993 (http://www.hkadb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20993)

WaterfrontAir expects to use a 31 approach and a 13 departure, then transit the harbour to join the established air routes to and from Macau. The flight should take about 20 minutes, and the view will be amazing.

The landing area is located west of the old Kai Tak runway, as shown on the SCMP graphic.
http://www.hkadb.com/forum/files/scmp_map_183.jpg
This area is almost completely free of marine traffic, and separated by over 800m from the Cruise Terminal.

The twin otter needs about 750m to 50ft for a take off run and is airborne at about 60 KIAS, with 20 degrees of flaps.


Thanks, Michael Agopsowicz, Director - WaterfrontAir.

Very interesting. To bad they can't do the old 13 approach!! Imagine the veterns lining up to experience that again...
Seems they still need some money to get the project off the ground?

[boxjockey]

Thought they were turning the old Kai Tak into a cruise terminal or something? I dunno...

box

[ACMS]

Yeah maybe, I was just a little concerned about the sea state in the harbour allowing use by a twotter on floats. As I said above I'm not sea plane endorsed so I can't speak from any experience on the matter.

I thought the little rwy required might be a better option.

Passengers would be taken to the Kowloon City ferry pier after the seaplanes landed.

how? by a boat maybe? This will cost money.

[capt787]

are they planning to take off into the 13 direction and land in the 31 direction?

i am not float endorsed either but what are they going to do if tail wind exceed the limit? divert to CLK? :rolleyes:

[flies floats farts]

The harbour water is big and very, very choppy all of the time regardless of wind but probably wake and debris could each create a bigger threat to the operation.

Would be big fun though

[Sicer]

According to the map in the SCMP, the take off area would be behind the To Kwa Wan typhoon shelter, protected by a seawall. The water there is designed to be pretty calm all the time, even during a typhoon! :)

[Flying Mechanic]

have you seen how much cr%p is floating in that typhoon shelter, its shocking!

[ACMS]

So extra strong floats it is :ok:

And a good bilge pump, wouldn't wanna sink in that crap!! :eek:

Seriously..........what are the T/O and LDG app paths like into that shelter area?

[Sicer]

In response to your question ACMS here is something I found at www.hkadb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20993 (http://www.hkadb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20993)

WaterfrontAir expects to use a 31 approach and a 13 departure, then transit the harbour to join the established air routes to and from Macau. The flight should take about 20 minutes, and the view will be amazing.

The landing area is located west of the old Kai Tak runway, as shown on the SCMP graphic.
http://www.hkadb.com/forum/files/scmp_map_183.jpg
This area is almost completely free of marine traffic, and separated by over 800m from the Cruise Terminal.

The twin otter needs about 750m to 50ft for a take off run and is airborne at about 60 KIAS, with 20 degrees of flaps.


Thanks, Michael Agopsowicz, Director - WaterfrontAir.

[ACMS]

lets hope the prevailing winds cooperate then:ok:

[FlexibleResponse]

As an old fart having operated into Kai Tak for too many years, I can say that the landing will be 13 and the take-off will be 13 due to the prevailing winds for at least 85% of the time.

Of course this does not preclude an approach on 31 circling to land 13. The float-plane concept sounds very enticing to me... and seems to complete the "circle" of Hong Kong aviation.

[Arrowhead]

Central to Macau by Ferry: $150 scum class, $250 business class in 1:30
Kowloon to Macau by Ferry: same cost, same time or just a little more
Central to Macau by Heli: $2500 in 0:40

Central/Kowloon to Macau via Seaplane at Kai Tak: $1500 in 1:10
So 10x the price for 20 min saving. Mmmmmm "its not gonna fly". At $750 it could get pax, but then could it make money at $750?

Sadly, I think its a dodo

[FlexibleResponse]

Central/Kowloon to Macau via Seaplane at Kai Tak: $1500 in 1:10

Kai Tak to Macau the long way around (via the Lei Yue Mun gap) is about 50nm. So that would only be about 35 minutes travel time?

Does anyone remember the sector time for the CX Catalina?

[knox]

Anymore news on this.
Seems a long time since anyone has posted.


Knox.

[Sicer]

Seems the seaplane plans are still going strong:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/403531-sz-beats-hk-caac-promotes-seaplanes.html

[Iron Will]

Sicer...this article is great news but I think there is a huge underestimation by Waterfront management on what it will take to get approved in Macau and probably HK. There is no way I can see it will happen before the end of 2010 as the article states.

The average time, (and it has been proven a few times now), to get an AOC in Macau has been at least 18-24 months due to the pace that the AACM works at and the unpreparedness of the operators. Can't even imagine how long it will take them to get their head around how to approve an aircraft landing on the water!!! Every investor in aviation in Macau to date has sadly misjudged the time required. Let's all hope and pray..'cause after Viva biting the bullet Macau needs it ... but a lot of disappointments should be expected.

[Sicer]

If they are based in SZX, then perhaps they might have a Chinese AOC? That would sure avoid a lot of the challenges facing the process in Macau as you state.

[Iron Will]

AOC in China may (or may not) be simpler to attain but again underestimating it is pretty standard behaviour of investors and even experienced aviation management. They all think it can be done in a few months and in these parts "nothing happens in a few months". The article reads like they already have an AOC in China but I read it as all they have is an MOU with the airport which is far from being an approval by the authority. In other words...they have a place to pull up to a dock and that's about it. The helicopters spent 2-3 years (and $$$) getting approval to fly into SZX and they had an AOC. Will likely be easier than that now but then again maybe not.
Macau AACM is stranger than any, and with the young experience running it, they won't be convinced easily about landing on water, because they just don't have a clue. And where are they going to dock? Approval for that will add months or years. Individually and as a government department, they will not take risks on anything that might come back to bite them. Hope it all goes as they say though, so I can dust off my float rating!

[ZAGORFLY]

any update about this project?
tks.