JAA conv. and the 15 hour instr. req. quest.

[B767PL]

Hey guys.

I am going to be hopefully starting my conversion soon. The amount of time I have is limited, and I do not have enough hours to omit the groundschool course, therefore I am doing a DL program. Question I have is that after I finish the exams, and get a CPL, I have to go to Europe and do the IR there for the fATPL to be complete.

Question is this ; Are there any other ways I can still complete the conversion to a JAA fATPL without doing the IR in Europe?... or at least not the full 15 hours of it. Main problem for me is time, as I am currently working, and it would be hard to find that much time off to do it all. I currently have FAA CPL with SIC DHC-8 TR.

Thanks for any help and replies.

[whiskey1]

To Gain the CPL with I/R you must complete the 15 hours flying in Europe and 10 hours can be on an FNPT2 (Sim). The normal minimum hours for an I/R is 50 so you get a big reduction. You have 36 months from finishing your exams to gain the I/R so use next years holidays.

W1

[eikido]

So you have to finish the ATPL exams (14 of them) first, and then you can do the IR?
Isn't it possible to do it the other way around?
First IR+CPL then ATPL?

Eikido

[BigGrecian]

JAR (Joint Aviation Regulations) FCL (Flight Crew Licensing) 1 is your reference.

It's the equivilant of Part 61 in the US.

No the CPL/IR or ATPL exams are a pre-requisite to the CPL or IR.

[Brainstorm]

I believe I have mentioned this before; the FAA and JAA IRs are somewhat different. Even if you are a proficient FAA instrument pilot chances are that you may need more than the minimum 15 hours (like many do). Also, there is the 170A check and obviously the whole IR check to pay for, please consider this in your budget. Best of luck!

[B767PL]

Thanks to all for your replies so far!


Brainstorm, what is the 170A check? How much is the examiner for the IR roughly? What is so much different then the FAA IR? Thanks for the input :ok:

I wish you could do the IR rating here in the U.S at European standards, or if there was another way to go about getting it. The financial blow would be much less.. but then again I suppose thats what the JAA is after.

[BigGrecian]

To be fair, US and European airspace is different and the European airspace tends (not always) to be more complex, and busier, and hence is more proceduarly based and you can't simulate that over here.

The DPE who gave me my FAA IR said that the FAA ATP is more like the JAA IR, as a rough reference.

What you have to rememeber is that the number of Private IRs is very low in europe(mainly due to cost) so the IR is geared up towards the commercial/airline flying world in mind.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Believe me the 15 hours is not a lot to get used to:

1) The european airspace (especially UK)
2) The standard required

I had an FAA single engine IR and found the CAA multi-engine IR to be quite the step up. Mind you since you have commercial multi-experience, it should be a bit easier than in my case (no multi experience until i started CPL/IR). I ended up doing 25 hours instead of 15, because wanted to be sure I got a first time pass (it worked).

An earlier post compared the standards of the multi-IR to the FAA ATPL and I would agree with that. You won't get away with a wobbly inbound track in the hold like you would for an FAA IR!

One of the main challenges of the airspace is the back and forth transitions between controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Fun moments like doing the engine failure on the missed approach of the ILS, being given a couple of vectors, then suddenly "you are now outside of controlled airspace, goodbye". Up you to figure exactly where you are, how you're going to get to the next airport and who to contact to get radar advisories (flight following)... while still on one engine trying to get a clapped out Seneca to climb. Ah the memories...

The 170A is a "pre-exam" that is run by a qualified instructor (not examiner). It's a full rehearsal of the IR, two hours long. It's not just for practice, the instructor has to sign you off so you can take the 170 (the IR). That can also be challenging, since your 170A instructor will be different from the instructor who trained you. And as much as flight schools claim that standards are strictly enforced amongst their instructor team... It's just not true! I had to re-take my 170A after some re-training because my initial instructor was new to the school and not quite up to standards. Imagine how pleased I was...

But hey, at the end of the day, I'm sitting fat dumb and happy in a 737 so it was all worth it!

P

[Permafrost_ATPL]

You can find details of all CAA racket at:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS5~230.pdf

729 GBP for the IR...

P

[B767PL]

Thanks for the info.

Say there is an airline you are applying to and you meet all their requirements with some previous airline experience except you don't have the JAA multi-IR converted yet. Since all FOs that fly for Euro carriers get type rated in the a/c they are flying. Would the airline be willing to hire you, and obviously when you pass the TR you would also now have your JAA multi/IR. Does anyone know of any places that would be OK with that? They have nothing to lose by it really.

Anyone hear of anything like this? J/W

[eikido]

Also, what is this deal about passing the IR at first shot?
Does employers look at your certificate and say, hmm, he didn't pass the first time! Not good?!??!?

[Brainstorm]

The biggest motivation for passing the IR first time is the cost of failing!! Retaking the test can be a few thousand pounds if you consider re-training etc. I think a Seneca rents for about £350/hr wet incl. instructor in the UK at the moment.

Lots of people don't pass their IR tests first time, so it is not a disaster if you happen to screw up a little. It is however nice to be able to state 'first time pass' on your CV as it is a difficult test, it shows that you know your stuff.

I trained at Aeros quite a few years ago (a very good school), their latest test results are shown below. First time pass on the IR is only 50%, but I think that is about average in the UK.

Aeros - Flight Training at Gloucestershire and Filton (http://www.aeros.co.uk/news/news_passes.html#anchor-49577)

I suggest you have a read of this for the test:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_01.PDF

[Permafrost_ATPL]

I overlooked the fact that you have a TR. Under certain conditions, you are allowed to take skills test (i.e. full two day sim) in a sim (same type, obviously) and gain your JAR multi-IR. Not sure how that would compare financially to going to a flight school and doing it in a Seneca (15 hours plus test).

The CAA are pretty good at giving licensing advice if you email to them. Takes a few days, but you usually get a clear response. Well worth doing before you start spending money!

Regarding your question about an airline hiring you and getting your IR during the TR, it's pretty unlikely especially in this climate. A frozen ATPL (i.e. JAR multi CPL/IR and ATPL written) is the strict minimum.

Not the end of the world if you don't pass IR first time, but basically if an employer has two similar CVs and one has first time pass and the other not, it might make the difference.

P

[B767PL]

Thanks permafrost. I will have to look into what would be cheaper. I wonder how they go about doing it in the simulator, and if you can use the procedures your company uses.

Emailing the CAA is probably a good idea. The biggest problem with all of this at this point, as it probably is for many people is money. A seneca in Europe rents for over 2 times as much as in the U.S Is there a way to get a single-cpl, then single IR, then add on a multi-engine class rating to those 2 ratings and get the fATPL valid that way? Just thinking here. hehe :suspect: