Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug

[llondel]

BBC NEWS | UK | Forced landing for Ryanair flight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7581492.stm)

A Ryanair flight carrying British holidaymakers has been forced to make an unscheduled landing due to a loss of cabin pressure, the company has said.
Flight FR9336 from Bristol to Barcelona Girona Airport was hit by a "depressurisation incident" on Monday night, Ryanair confirmed.


Looks like it was all handled properly, Ryanair even apparently paying for onward journey by coach for those who didn't want to fly the rest of the way.

[dicksorchard]

It sounds like all involved did extremly well to keep the situation under control - very proffesional and from what little news thats filtering thru sounds like a lot of the passengers where extremly frightened by the whole incident - Oxygen masks deploying etc .

Passengers wud have been aprehensive anyway especially considering the bad week that the aviation industry is having .

To be honest i know there is always a bit of a media frenzy when One passenger jet is involved in a fatal accident never mind 3 in a week !

Madrid , kyzakerstan , Guatemala and thats not counting the incidents involving the mid air collision coventry and other light aircrafts .

Tomorrow people are going to see the Ryanair depressurisation & and theAir Dolomiti fire all over the news .

Its a strange one ...what would cause a depressurisation like that anyway ?

Most of Ryanairs fleet are boeing 737-800's and are practically brand spanking new

[chasb441]

Not sure of the specific cause but imho airlines and other maintenance facility's must be feeling the pinch in today's financial climate and, dare I say it, may be looking at cost cutting in certain areas such as maintenance?? Its a very sensitive subject but I for one work for a company which has recently extended the periodicity of its servicing cycles on its aircraft. The incidents over the past few weeks may just be a coincidence but it raises a few questions in some minds, including my own.

Hope I'm mistaken :sad:

[Riccardo]

You can't just 'raise the periodicity' of maintenance checks.

Maintenance periods are set by manufacturers and approved by the appropriate regulatory authority. Any change in periodicity has to come from the manufacturer and be approved by said authority.

[chasb441]

Was approved by all the correct agencies. Not a EEC based outfit but still comes under the general rules of the ICAO.

[ballyctid]

Chasb441 says...Was approved by all the correct agencies. Not a EEC based outfit but still comes under the general rules of the ICAO.


In that case it is still being maintained IAW the manufacturers schedule and approved by the authorities. Your statemenet saying that the period is extended is just another piece of sensationalism!

A report I read this morning says the aircraft "plummeted"

I'm sure the dictionary will not have the words "controlled descent from XXX feet to XXX feet" next to the word plummeted!

[BRE]

Aren't Ryanair jets registered in Ireland?

[Noxegon]

They are - all Ryanair jets carry EI registrations.

[Self Loading Freight]

The Today programme had a wells-spoken chap on complaining that the oxygen masks didn't seem to work and that there was no PA explaining anything until after the a/c got to 8000'.

MoL came on afterwards and did a good job of explaining what happened - could have pointed out that the procedure is standard across the industry and not 'his' safety procedures, which the interviewer was implying.

Seems like a standard 'passengers in death plunge' report - ie, everything worked fine but none of the pax knew what was going on at the time. And a planeful of frightened people, all of whom have a suspicion that their five euro fares mean that maintenance is slack, will make the news.

Possibly an argument for including a short 'in the event of' bit on the seatback safety card. I seem to remember Concorde had one, presumably because of the rather dramatic depressurisation/engine out procedure at altitude.

R

(edited to add interview context. This was in reply to a post that appears to have vanished, at least in preview)

[Finbarr]

I have just listened to O'Loire being rubbished on the BBC's "Today" because his crew reacted in the correct way to the emergency depressurisation. How did Ed Stourton think the Cabin Crew were going to talk to passengers when they are trained to save their own lives by grabbing the nearest [passenger] oxygen mask? There is no point in the pilots trying to communicate with the pax with their masks on as those of us who have used them know that they would not be understood.

What is obvious is that if the pax had listened to/watched the safety briefing, they might have known what to do. I travel around Europe a lot on a variety of airlines, and only one, easyJet, chastises people for not paying attention to the safety briefing. We have all seen it - the regular traveller makes his point by deliberately reading his newspaper whilst the foreigner does not know what is going on. To give them their due, Ryanair have a clear Irish voice reading the English version, which is usually followed by the briefing in the language of the destination.

This has been an incident waiting to happen for some time - on none of the safety briefings I listen to, including those from the "World's Finest" is it stressed that one must 'tug' the oxygen tube to start the chemical generators. "Pull the mask towards you" is simply not enoough.

[Bicontatto]

I think that there is a case for a pre-recorded announcement to explain to the passengers what is happening. Saying that there will be a rapid descent etc.
The cabin crew would then just have to "hit the tit" and it would reduce the "we're all doomed" anxiety perhaps.

A job well done, it would appear.:ok:

It would also appear that the passenger did not act in accordance with the safety instructions by attending to his son's mask before his own.:=

[limp_leek]

This has been an incident waiting to happen for some time - on none of the safety briefings I listen to, including those from the "World's Finest" is it stressed that one must 'tug' the oxygen tube to start the chemical generators. "Pull the mask towards you" is simply not enoough.

If an oxygen mask suddenly appears in front of your face then it is for a reason.

This tugging shit is wrong!!!!

If the mask is dangling there it should be activated.

How hard is a "tug" (thinking when the aircraft is plummeting a tug is like 400lbs)

[Baron rouge]

having performed an emergency descent some time ago, I must admit the passengers were all gratefull that i took time to explain the problem to the passengers as soon as we reached 10000ft.
It is really disturbing for them, not so much the descent which is quite smooth, but the heat caused by the oxygen generators of the pax oxygen masks, and the fact that the oxygen flow is quite low allthough largely sufficient.
I also told them they could breathe normaly and didn't need the masks anymore.
Nobody was hurt and nobody needed an hospital treatment... but with all the rubish we read in the papers today , I am not surprised of the number of passengers going to hospital

[Eagle402]

Limp Leek,

Putting aside your careful analysis for a moment - you are failing to consider the implications of a cabin that is only partially occupied e.g. 180 capacity, 60 pax. Having oxygen flow to every mask is jeopardising supply(not infinite), and to a lesser extent, pressure.

Regards.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I listened to the Today programme piece with Ed Stourton interviewing Pen Hadow the passenger and polar explorer and then grilling O'Leary. I don't usually whinge about the press, but it was typical of Britain today. O'Leary was grilled on the basis that Ryanair had been utterly deficient because there had been inadequate PA announcements from the flight deck until they were at 8,000 ft. He pointed out that the crew had their own masks on and were busy making an emergency descent, but this didn't really seem to cut much ice.

Sh*t happens, it was scary, nobody was hurt. People need to live with that. I am surprised at Stourton's attitude as I had thought him an excellent broadcaster. Even more surprising was the polar explorer's attitude, but there you go: the demise of British phlegm.

[Seat62K]

I, too, heard the interviews on BBC Radio 4.
For me, they raised a couple of questions:
I think MOL said that flight deck crew could not communicate with passengers when wearing oxygen masks (I was in the shower and couldn't hear very clearly). Is this true (the claim not whether he said it!)? (Over to the experts.) If it is, how might important information be passed to passengers in such a situation?
The passenger who was interviewed raised an interesting point in that he wondered exactly how hard one needs to pull on the mask to activate the flow (without accidentally snapping the tube and rendering it useless).
P.S. MOL stated (on at least three occasions, I think) that the flight was en route to Barcelona :confused:. He must have meant Girona/Gerona or Reus. I speak as someone flying to Barcelona tomorrow... on easyJet. (Sorry, MOL - I'm confident you'll read this - but I couldn't resist :}! Gift horses and all that!)

[fmgc]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if a PA is made, or if the Pax are frightened.

All that matters is that the aircraft is made safe.

The rest is all just a nicety, if you can make a PA and calm the Pax then so much the better but not a priority.

It would seem that whenever there is a decompression that not all the masks work.

This is a little concerning.

[Seat62K]

"Baron rouge",
I've just seen your post. My understanding is that some passengers needed medical attention because the rapid descent had caused ear difficulties. I have heard of perforated eardrums in such circumstances. They were apparently advised not to fly by medical experts.

[Fly_Right]

The pax oxygen system on the Rynair A/C consists of individual chemical oxygen generators in the PSUs above each row of seats. 4 masks per generator for 3 pax plus an infant. Therefore there would be no loss of pressure if they were all activated. There are many reasons why they are not. The oxygen generators get VERY hot as they produce the gas; it is also a very unpleasant, metallic smell. Having all of them on, if not necessary, would make the cabin very hot and unpleasant.

I think the Airbus can be configured to automaticaly broadcast a Rapid Descent PA in the event of sudden cabin pressure loss.

[Etalon]

I too have wondered this, (as SLF), how hard do you have to tug on the mask to get oxygen flowing? Considering the noise and confusion, this lack of knowledge, coupled with there probably being no indication as to if oxygen is flowing seems like a flaw to me.

I would probably be so worried that I would damage the mask system that I would give it only the most gentle of tugs! I'm not too concerned though , because it seems you can go without for long enough to get to ~8000.

My parents, who supposedly listen to the saftey briefing didnt know you had to tug on the mask at all.

[Baron rouge]

Putting aside your careful analysis for a moment - you are failing to consider the implications of a cabin that is only partially occupied e.g. 180 capacity, 60 pax. Having oxygen flow to every mask is jeopardising supply(not infinite), and to a lesser extent, pressure.

Each set of 3 seats (4 masks)has an individual oxygen generator producing enough oxygen for the time above 12000ft, when you need it.
Your consideration apply to bottle supply which is no longer in use on airliners. :=

About eardrum perforation, the most probable cause of it, would be a fast descent in the very last 5000ft .
To avoid that problem you should not have more than 500 ft/mn in the final descent to land and as there was apparently no other damage to the aircraft, they had plenty of time to land.

About making a PA with the mask on, MOL is right, it is a bit tricky and that's why you can only make your PA below 12000 ft, once you have discarded the oxygen mask.

[flyingbug]

What is obvious is that if the pax had listened to/watched the safety briefing, they might have known what to do.


Absolutley!!!

[harrogate]

It's a very disturbing story.

21 unsold seats on a flight to Spain in peak season.

My thoughts are with the board at this difficult time.

[MrMalev]

Is there any word on which aircraft this was?

Having used FR a number of times from BRS this year it is noticeable that not many people appear to pay attention to the safety announcement - and although the crew do demonstrate 'tugging' on an oxygen mask I don't recall specific verbal instructions to do so.

Last year on VS, the safety announcement was stopped and re-started from the beginning when one pax stood up and was evidently not paying attention and I've seen EZY do similar.

[El Grifo]

Irrespective of all of the pontificating here, the recent series of accidents will do nothing for the confidence of potential pax, at a time when the quality of service provided by many airlines has dropped below that which most deem reasonably acceptable.

"Cattle class" is the now buzzphrase , and don't it ring true !!

[MPH]

Procedure : emergency decent x 3 over the PA. Get the A/C down to 10000´
or MSA. Evaluate situation, oxygen mask´s off, communicate with the No. 1 a...n..d then make an anouncement. What´s this bussiness about talking to the pax on what´s going on in the middle of an ´rapid decompression´. The ear popping´is normal in a decompression ie. severe ear and sinus pain, feeling cold, chest and joint pain caused by nitrogen bubbles in the blood expanding, forced expelation of air. As someone mentioned if, you as a pax paid more attention to the saftey briefings then you might be more aware of what´s going on in this type of situation!
The cause of this particular incident well...as usual, wait for the report. Needless to say a very uncomfortable situation for all involved. But, by the looks of it, a well execute procedure!:)

[artyh]

Like many I am very frustrated at the drivel that gets posted on this forum of late - sic the Spanair thread.

Seems like waiting until 1200 today for MOL's next bulletin will be more informative. Here's what Ryanair themselves say - seems nicely factual and to the point - though I bet they know what component failure cuased the depressurisation.


Ryanair.com - Notice : Ryanair Aircraft diverts to Limoges 25 Aug- Updated 08.30hrs (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/notices.php?notice=gops&code=080826-FR_Div_to_LIG_-notic-GB)

[baftabill]

I try not to post here because I have no flying qualifications whatsoever. I do understand a bit about how people learn things. The safety briefing has absolutely no context for a passenger. "In the event of cabin depressurisation" is a completely meaningless phrase to most passengers.

So we are told how to respond to something we don't understand.

The idea that a short talk at the start of a flight would lead to perfect compliance in the event of an incident which makes ordinary people fear for their lives is simply wrong.

There is much talk here of passengers not displaying common sense in an 'emergency' - see the Munich Fire thread nearby - but frankly, if you think that a short talk and a look at the safety card means people will understand how to behave in an incredibly stressful situation, then, politely, you are not displaying common sense.

The challenge is to manage the passengers inevitable lack of understanding.

[WHBM]

The Today programme had a wells-spoken chap on complaining that the oxygen masks didn't seem to workThis is a constant complaint when the oxy masks are deployed. Among other issues that come up repeatedly :

- The masks were ill-maintained and dusty; pax mistaking the french chalk used to pack the masks to avoid chafing, which clouds the cabin on deployment.

- The oxy supply didn't work; pax expecting the bag to inflate under normal usage, whereas it only inflates under abnormal usage.

- The flow was inadequate; in fact the limited flow is quite adequate, it's not air you are breathing, it's oxygen, so much less is needed.

- Oxy not there straight away; you do have to pull it, as explaned in every pre-flight safety briefing I have ever heard.

and that there was no PA explaining anything until after the a/c got to 8000'There is a PA explaining everything given before the start of the flight, which is typically listened to by about 25% of the pax. Notably those who might say "Yes I did listen to the safety briefing, then followed the procedure, everything was fine" are never selected for broadcast by the media.

[jackharr]

I had only one depressurisation in my 40 year career and that was not sudden, merely a gradual loss (air supply valve or something like that).

Unknown to me, I had a senior (non-flying) member of management on board. A few days later, I received a call (with a follow-up letter) from my line manager that was of a very unusual nature. I had apparently got a pat on the back from the senior passenger "for the reassuring way" I had handled things. Normally a call from my boss was to the effect that (again) I had upset some young stewardess by being "too abrupt".

Unfortunately, I never kept that "green" letter as it would have framed and been given pride of place in the downstairs loo.....

Jack

[lexoncd]

This is an incident that happens to all airlines and all makes of aircraft from time to time. We're in the silly season for news plus recent sad events have brought all aircraft incidents to the notice of the news depts.

The oxygen activation system is a generic standard. By al means question this and I would agree about the dangers of tugging too hard V not at all. The briefing Ryanair give is approved by the relevant authorities. The trouble is that nowadays SLF have become very complacent about flying and the dangers however remote. Sell it like its a bus and the public treat it like one.....

As for the PIC and talking to the punters......enough said. 23.30 getting into a small regional airport...Limoges etc etc. priorities dear chap.....This isn't like the BA 747 incident where the engines stopped.....and then the Captain had a chat....

[StallStrip]

Congratulations to the crew! A procedure well practised through out the Airline Industry, and executed correctly. No one was hurt physically, or financially, but because it was Ryanair the media have to try and find something wrong with the crew actions. We all know the the untrained eye it is a scary experience, maybe the Airline Industry should include in the safety announcement " in the event of a sudden lose of pressure, your mask's will drop and an emergency descent will begin ".

FR Crew I take my hat off to you! :D

[Love_joy]

I would be more interested to know what would cause a depressurisation?

Could be caused by a failure of a number of things.

The cabin air is supplied by the engines, if they stop, the air stops - but not normally with a 'bang' as ram air helps maintain the pressure and it trickles away slowly. Failure of a single engine, would require the aircraft to descend to a slightly lower level as the system would not be capable of supplying the normal pressure.

The more common cause of such an event is 'structural failure' - however, read between the lines here. I don't necessarily mean the fuselage ripping in two, but more a failure of a valve, seal, door, hatch, or a failure of one of the pressure bulkheads (which are hidden behind panels at the very front and rear of the passenger cabin).

It is interesting to note, Pen Hadow, who appears to be some sort of expert on the matter - had taken it upon himself to notfy his fellow passengers that his O2 mask bag had not inflated. I am quite sure the Ryanair demo makes a point of saying the bags do not inflate, as they don't, for this very reason. The demo at my own airline makes this point clear.

The next time you listen to my welcome PA, and I mention that you are required to pay the demo your full attention - please, please do so. Its for your own safety, and the safety of those around you

[Mercenary Pilot]

Jet Plunges..... :rolleyes:

Last Wednesday 154 people died in Spain's worst aviation accident in 25 years when a jet crashed off the runway at a Madrid airport moments after takeoff.

Which has NOTHING to do with this incident

"Mine wasn't filling up with oxygen and neither was my son's. He was hyperventilating. I looked at the lady on my left and hers hadn't filled up either."

Next time put your paper down and listen to what the cabin crew tell you during the safety brief, :mad: moron!

[OFSO]

From SLF:

I've just sent the following text to BBC Radio 4 regarding the reporting of the incident yesterday:


I wish to protest strongly about the quality of the "interview" of a Ryanair representative by Ed Stourton this morning (26.8.08). Stourton seemed to be unable to grasp that when an aircraft experiences a loss of pressure, the crew immediately don theiry supplementary oxygen masks and are therefore unable to make a PA announcement until the aircraft has descended below 10,000'. This is why information on use of oxygen masks is made before take-off. Maybe Stourton should have sought out some passengers and asked them why they didn't pay attention to the briefing.

As for citing an arctic explorer - how does this qualify him to have a special ability to comment ?

The Ryanair crew behaved in a most professional manner in making a rapid controlled descent (note: the aircraft did not "plummet" as the BBC is fond of saying) and as for Ed Stourton - take him out of the program until he learns something about unbiased interviewing

[rubik101]

How do you know if your mask has 'filled up' with O2? Plonkers!

And can someone tell us why the cracked windscreen/emergency decent of a BMI aircraft two days ago has not made the press?

Maybe it has something to do with the more vocal passengers on RYR.

[D O Guerrero]

The fact is that a large number of pax don't listen to safety briefings. Even when they do listen, many don't really think through their options if something were to go wrong - eg where's my nearest door, how easily can I get there etc etc... So we have to deal with that.
That said, the fact of the matter is that the aircraft got on the ground safely with no casualties. I'm sure that were I in the situation as a passenger I would love a hug and a cup of tea but the fact of the matter is that the overriding priority of the flight crew is to maintain the safety of the aircraft. Who knows what they may have been having to deal with on the flightdeck... but they still managed to make an announcement on levelling off, which is the point at which I would have thought it appropriate.
I find it very hard to believe that the oxygen wasn't working. If memory serves a rapid decompression at 35,000' (guestimated alt) gives a TUC of 20secs and a slow decompression 45secs. Given that the pax weren't complaining of having become unconscious and dying during the incident, I'm guessing the oxygen was working.
On another point, the Today programme really is going rapidly downhill. Had a Daily Mail Journo stepped in for Ed for a couple of minutes? I don't say this often - but I couldn't agree more with MOL's comments.

[Speed of Sound]

How do you know if your mask has 'filled up' with O2? Plonkers!

BBC News at one still peddling this story about claims that some of the oxygen masks not working, along with a natty graphic of the aircraft 'plunging' from 30,000 feet.

SoS

[Beausoleil]

This is a constant complaint when the oxy masks are deployed. Among other issues that come up repeatedly :

- The masks were ill-maintained and dusty; pax mistaking the french chalk used to pack the masks to avoid chafing, which clouds the cabin on deployment.

- The oxy supply didn't work; pax expecting the bag to inflate under normal usage, whereas it only inflates under abnormal usage.

- The flow was inadequate; in fact the limited flow is quite adequate, it's not air you are breathing, it's oxygen, so much less is needed.

- Oxy not there straight away; you do have to pull it, as explaned in every pre-flight safety briefing I have ever heard.





Well done to the crew, I'm sure most passengers are grateful for a job well done. I think anyone who thinks about it will realise why there is no briefing until the emergency has been "dealt with".

I take the point about listening to the safety briefing. As a slightly nervous passenger, I've listened to the briefing on every flight I've ever been on. As I understand it, if the cabin loses pressure oxygen masks will fall, you pull one towards you and put it on. If you have to help someone, put yours on first. Don't worry that the bag has not inflated, this doesn't mean oxygen is not flowing.

However, perhaps there is a valid point being made here that has occurred to me occasionally before. I have no idea how to tell if the oxygen actually is flowing short of not passing out. The warning about the bag suggests to me that people have been known to pull them too hard trying to get the bag to inflate - ie I understand they are warning me not to pull it too hard because I might break my oxygen supply. Rather than just telling people that the bag doesn't have to inflate if they've pulled the mask hard enough, wouldn't it make sense to tell people how to know that they have pulled it hard enough. Would you feel a flow of "air" from the mask, for instance.

Listening to the guy on the radio this morning (Today programme) I wanted to know what made him sure the oxygen wasn't flowing - wouldn't he have lost consciousness if it hadn't been? - he didn't say that happened.

Apologies for anything in the above that is the product of my ignorance and for intruding in your forum. I enjoy reading this site - it is one of the things that has made me a much less anxious passenger.

[VAFFPAX]

I've also raised this with BBC News. Just because someone is a polar explorer does not make them an expert on what should be done.

Paramount is safety, which means "don masks, get the plane down to a safe FL, then talk the passengers through what just happened".

As for "there was NO warning, it just happened" - Well matey, that's what's called an emergency.

And I do agree with what others said - If you'd listened to the safety briefing, you would know that the bag does not inflate, but that the oxygen does flow if you pulled "the mask sharply to your face" as so many briefings clearly point out.

BBC News just published an article that explains some of this:

BBC NEWS | UK | What to do when planes lose pressure (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7582087.stm)

S.

[ballyctid]

I have just listened in full to the intrepid explorers interview, I find it unbelieveable, more so that the beeb actually broadcast such drivel...

So he states non of the masks worked, how does he know?

He states that 80% of pax knew they were going to die, All 80% were wrong then!

He helped his son with the mask (I thought they weren't working!)

The masks did not inflate, as has been stated he should put down his copy of explorers worls and listen to the brief!!!

Finally, some of the masks wouldnt have worked, if they hadnt been "tugged"! And the reason they have 4 in a row of 3 is for redundancy in case some don't work, (and for the hostie if she decides to take a wander down the aisle)

Typical sensationalism!

[beamender99]

BBC News at one still peddling this story about claims that some of the oxygen masks not working, along with a natty graphic of the aircraft 'plunging' from 30,000 feet.


It was a vast improvement on the original 9.04 minutes Radio 4 item
5.40 minutes of our Arctic expert telling how the oxygen failed etc.
MOL did pretty well explaining that all proceedures were correctly carried out.

The original item.
BBC NEWS | UK | Forced landing for Ryanair flight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7581492.stm)

If you have the time then the full Radio 4 item is on the above link.

A new BBC item posted this morning

BBC NEWS | UK | What to do when planes lose pressure (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7582087.stm)

[Teevee]

As SLF, it surprises me that everytime there seems to be an emergency somebody complains that there hasn't been an announcement from the Flight Deck or Cabin Crew. Are these people totally thick? What on earth do they think these peole are doing during an emergency:ugh: It completely passes them by that they've survived to complain because of the professionalism of these people they're complaining about.

On the other hand let's not start doing what we complain the media does, i.e. give out the wrong story. News at One on BBC1 actually explained why it might be that pax think their oxygen masks aren't working when in fact they are ... something to do with the much lower pressure of the oxygen than normal air pressure?

[easy1]

From what I remember from my very first flying lesson:

AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE

[angels]

SLF here. This really is a fuss about nothing.

The thread is now about crap reporting.

Well done to the crew, you did what you had to do well it seems to me.

One thing it would be interesting to know about was what actually caused the incident.

[Return to base]

I have just had a discussion (??) with my wife, that I lost as usual, as to the reasons why the cabin crew/flight deck could not communicate over the PA system as to what the problem was.
She would not accept that the crew were carrying out procedures to ensure the passengers were safe which included going down through the cabin to ensure the more elderly, infirm or very young ones were cared for, or bringing the aircraft to a more acceptable altitude.
To her, everything should have waited until an announcement to calm the passengers had been made:eek:



rtb

[Todders]

Uneducated people sensationalising what was really a well dealt with, well practiced drill.

Well done to the crew, a/c on the ground and the worst outcome seams to be some poor people with sore ears. Deffo good enough for a days work.

Guys have you not realised that there is no news at the min the papers/tv's are fighting to make a good story out of what ever they can a year maybe two ago this story would have been burried on page six or seven and the only people interested would be us crew that looked at it because we wanted to learn from it. Dont get involved in the pettyness of the media these days stay professional and keep doing our jobs..... ie get the people on the ground alive not over informed and experts on the situation. Comms with the pax is important but very much second to your real job.

[slip and turn]

I don't recall anything in a Ryanair safety briefing about whether you might have difficulty in breathing normally once you have "pull the mask down sharply" put the thing on and attempted to "breathe normally".

Moronic not to have known? Well I don't suppose I'll ever know until I try it, either.

As someone blessed with a knack of discovering how things work when it ain't immediately obvious, I too have often wondered how sharply you have to pull and exactly what type of device is being broken/snapped open/triggered when you do (without buggering it up I mean).

As for the Yahoo report, terrified passengers? Yes I imagine I would be quite fearful myself. Plummet (=To drop (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/drop) swiftly, in a direct manner)? Yes we seem to agree that's the drill, do we not?

Having not been in this situation, can I also just ask whether the plummet usually begins before during or after the oxygen masks are dropped in a controlled manner & donned variously ? :\

S&T, with possibly moronic tendencies, but still don't know for sure.

[JamesT73J]

To be fair nearly all media outlets have shown a fair bit of balance in this, stating that it was handled pretty much by the book.

[Etalon]

This appears to be a much more sensible report of what happens by the BBC: BBC NEWS | UK | What to do when planes lose pressure (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7582087.stm)

[itsresidualmate]

In answer to some questions about mask use;

All 3 or 4 masks in a PSU are connected to the oxygen candle by long supply hoses. Each mask is fitted with a lanyard (thin string to the layman!) connected to a single small pin that is inserted through the firing pin of the candle. When the masks drop their weight is supported only by the lanyards, the supply hoses being much longer. The action of pulling any mask pulls on the lanyard which in turn pulls out the small pin from the firing handle which starts the candle burning. In addition to the candle cylinder getting hot, operation is usually accompanied by a loud drone as the candle burns.

Force required to pull this pin out is very low, last time I fitted the rubber jungle back in I blew one even though I was being extra careful! I had a sniff of the one I deployed; no noticeable odours and as I recall a very low flow rate, no blast of gas as some may think.No worries about pulling too hard, pull as hard as you want, all you're doing is withdrawing a small pin which once pulled just dangles below the mask.

[Xeque]

The words 'plunge' and 'terror' again grace the front pages of the press despite the fact that the reports included an interview with a pax who stated that the descent had taken about 5 minutes to complete. Ah well!!
Many passengers ignore the safety briefing. There's not much the cabin crew can do about that. However, I do think that a pre-recorded cabin announcement that is triggered when the masks drop and reminding passengers of the three things that are going to happen would be a great help.

The aircraft will immediately commence a fairly rapid descent to a safe altitude
There may be some ear pain or discomfort particularly for young children
That passengers need to give the mask hose a tug in order to set the flow of air going.

If that announcement could be pitched at a louder than normal volume and could be repeated throughout the descent then it would go a long way to allay passengers anxiety and remind them of the safety procedures.
Well done those Ryanair boys and girls :D

[Big Burd]

It never ceases to amaze me that the numbskulls who sit reading their newspapers and chatting to their mates during the safety brief are the ones who are most vocal about things going wrong.

Ok, there was a depressurisation - everything was handled by the book and no-one died or was injured. So, what's the problem?

Don't the ambulance chasing media just love to make a meal of a potential accident. Not content with " Thanks to the training and skill of the fully qualified and experienced flight crew the inflight emergency was handled without further incident " we get " Nobody told us this was going to happen... and it could have so nearly ended in tragedy! - Compensation must be due! - the lawyers tell me I should sue..."

Well done to the Ryanflyers!

[marchino61]

As an SLF, I see a lot of arrogance from the professionals here.

I can fully understand why the pax are panicking:

1. Pre-flight safety briefing does not mention that plane will carry out emergency descent (pax translation: dive or plummet) after oxygen masks drop. Pax may think plane will continue level flight or descend gradually (after all, why the hurry, if the oxygen masks work?)

2. No explanation that it might seem like the air supply is constricted. True, volume of oxygen required is only 20% of normal volume of air breathed. But we are used to breathing that volume, and will be prone to panic when we do not get it.

3. In this computerised age, it should not be beyond the wit of man to devise a system that makes an automatic PA announcement when the masks drop....not only could you explain the descent, you could even remind pax NOT to help others first and that the supply may seem constricting

The comments of some pilots here remind me of doctors 50 years ago: "Who cares about the bedside manner as long as I cure the patient?"....Doc Martin, anyone?

[Ranger 1]

Perhaps if more were to read the Safety Card & listen to the Brief, rather than chatting & reading their Newspapers, they would know how to respond properly, when the masks drop down. :ugh:

An automated annoucement may well not be heard owing to increase in Cabin noise

[D O Guerrero]

Beausoleil - without wanting to sound trite... a simple user test for the oxygen masks could run as follows: alive and conscious 1 minute after depressurisation? - system either working ok or not required. Unconscious? System not ok. Interestingly the masks are not designed to fit snugly around the face - they are designed such that you breath a mixture of cabin air and pure oxygen (created by a chemical reaction). The oxygen is in fact supplied at about 10psi.
If the oxygen is flowing, you'll be in a fit state to be worried about it. If it isn't flowing you will start to suffer the rapid onset of hypoxia, symptoms of which include apparent personality change, euphoria, impaired judgement (you won't be noticing any of the symptoms in all likelihood), headache, possible hyperventilation etc etc. This, without restoration of the oxygen supply will be followed by gradually reducing consciousness, blue lips and extremities etc. The usual SOP is then to pass out and die. The final stage is reached in just a few minutes from onset of a rapid depressurisation above 20,000'. Longer for a slow depressurisation. All of this depends on the cabin pressure, the time of exposure and the rate of depressurisation.

[baftabill]

I think there are some really strong lessons in this.

Not that passengers are "Plonkers" (Speed of Sound), "totally thick" (Teevee), "idiotic, the misinformed, the ignorent (sic), and the plain stupid" (Spicejetter), "pretty ignorent (sic) (Spicejetter), "(smiley)moron!" (mercenary pilot).

Hadow was educated at Harrow (proving only that someone paid for his education) so presumably had an education, and has faced stress in his bonkers exploits, yet he was not prepared for what happened.
It is possible he has never listened to the safety announcement, but that misses the point - do you really think that the safety announcement prepares passengers fully for emergencies on board? The same safety announcement that tells me how to exit the plane in the event of a "landing on water"?

If you wanted the majority to understand it fully you would have to demonstrate, something I don't think would go down well with marketing.....

As passengers we pay peanuts for cheap flights, and in return are treated like cattle. We've got used to it. See above for how you think of us.....

And while we're at it, Hadow had his say, and MOL countered it rather well.
That's how this media thing works.

On another note, you can see the Delta safety briefing on You Tube. It's less than 5 mins long. The oxygen section is 26 second long, and begins with the worlds "It's unlikely, but if cabin pressure changes..." WTF?
This follows on from the section where we are encouraged to locate our nearest exit, so if I'm following insructions I will be looking for the nearest exit and trying to work out where the liferafts are.

Do you really think this prepares passengers???

[luoto]

I guess the idea of an automatic PA would be good but only if it could be at a higher volume and clearer than many PAs on many fleets (not RYR here).

OOI what was the Concorde special measures? I don't recall anything when I flew a long time ago, as PAX, but memory and time...

I wonder if, in the days of online booking, somehow the passenger's language could be captured and they receive a copy of the safety instructions in their own language EACH booking. Sure many will ignore it, but...

[Baron rouge]

I am very surprised by the number of pro pilots on this forum who consider the after descent P.A., was not necessary.

In fact the P.A. is essential to restaure the confidence of passsengers seriously shocked by the incident. They were already nervous due to last week accidents, and now they are in an overheated aircraft with a definite smell of burn, they breathe with difficulty from an oxygen mask and nobody to explain what the ****’s going on and that they can discard the mask and that the emergency is dealt with.

Had this PA been made, far less passengers would have had ear pain, because they would have been more relaxed, and maybe the crew would have done a proper job by completing the emergency drill to the end and performed a smooth depressurized approach.

Regarding Automatic P.A. when the masks drop, at least one aircraft (Fokker 100 ) is fitted with this very useful device and this aircraft was designed in the seventies... but BOEING is often lagging behind.

[Speed of Sound]

So he states non of the masks worked ....

So let me get this right. The guy thinks that the O2 masks aren't working and he still wants the flight crew to make an announcement before commencing descent?

Frostbite perhaps?


SoS

[slip and turn]

Thanks itsresidual :ok: So will all four masks fed from the same PSU start delivering oxygen from a single 'candle' the moment the first is pulled i.e. is it four masks/lanyards rigged to pull the same pin on one candle/PSU over each three seats?

Oh and don't need to be an expert to answer Big Burd. I can tell you the problem was that an emergency occurred, and we don't yet know how or why. Fascinating how each of us with different takes on the matter can enlighten one another, ain't it? :p

[itsresidualmate]

Yep, when one mask is pulled, oxy is delivered to the other 3 masks at the same time.

[beamender99]

Our Arctic expert had significantly changed his story on the ITN news this lunchtime.

Having not experienced such an event can someone explain his latest comments. Some of the "bladders" ( bags) inflated and others did not.

If we accept his statement, is this a case of SLF blowing rather than sucking or maybe kinking the hose?

[fireflybob]

Not sure whether this has been mentioned but one presume Pen Hadow has more access to the media than the average "punter!.

If anybody wants to email him about his comments, I suggest they go to his website at:-

Pen Hadow (http://www.penhadow.com/)

I am aghast at some of the unadulterated c**p that is spouted by the media these days, even the BBC! Obviously Terry Wogan's recent comments about the Beeb were right on target. Am amazed that 9 minutes (yes that's NINE minutes) of air time was given to this non event.

Well done to the crew (flight deck and cabin)!

[barry lloyd]

Marchino61

Your comments made some sense before you came to this part of the paragraph:

you could even remind pax to help others first

That's exactly what you're not supposed to do! (Another one who hasn't listened properly to the safety briefing:rolleyes:)

The simple point is this: if you're with children, they consume less oxygen (air) than adults. Therefore they can survive (however unpleasantly) whilst you fit your mask and check that it is working. If you fit the child's mask first and there is some problem, you are rapidly running out of air yourself, and you could both be in trouble, hence the briefing.:ugh:

Next time 'listen and learn'

[D O Guerrero]

Whilst I agree that passengers should be kept informed as much as possible Baron Rouge - we have no idea what was going on on the flightdeck. I would argue that in a potentially disastrous situation, the pax briefing is somewhere down the list... The integrity and safety of the aircraft itself is by no means the only consideration, but it must override all others.

[west lakes]

On the subject of automatic PA's

Consider

Does the aircraft have the capability in it's PA system to play pre-recorded messages?

If so
Pre-recording one isn't a problem
Triggering it is solvable
Turning the PA volume up automatically could be difficult
Would the Pax actually listen to it??

Should all airlines be made to cover the costs of all of the above for, what is after all, not a common occurence? Which in the first scenario could mean having to replace airframes!

Don't forget there was a thread in Pprune a few weeks ago complaining when an auto "prepare to ditch" messge was inadvertedly manually triggered.

[dicksorchard]

I fly with Ryanair on a very regular basis .

( 20 flights + this year with another 6 booked ) .

Not once have i ever watched a safety demonstration onboard where i have thought for one minute that the Ryanair Cabin Crew where simply going thru the motions !

I have seen Crew severly reprimand Pax who where talking , playing the arse & not listening and on one particular flight the No 1 stewardess actually made a complaint to the captain about some rowdy rugby fans and he came over the P/a and gave them a right rollicking .

They have always been very vigilent , particurly concerning the over wing / emergency exit seats ( my favourites due to extra legroom ) and i too my embarresment have been told off on a nummber of occaisions for minor infringments .
Ryanair get an awfull lot off stick from the media and sadly from within the aviation industry but i can from my own personal experience's of flying with them praise the pilot's & cabin crew for being very professional .

[Speed of Sound]

If anybody wants to email him about his comments, I suggest they go to his website at:-

Pen Hadow


The 'Thinking Man's Explorer' :ugh:

SoS

[itsresidualmate]

beamender99 as I recall on the generator I blew, the bags didn't inflate in the same way a balloon does. The bags filled and looked the same as an empty plastic shopping bag, i.e. not looking pressurized but not flat. I assume that is down to the low pressure produced, but then again I was at sea level, so removing 5 - 6 psi from ambient would probably make them look different. Does that make sense?!

[Troy McClure]

As itsresidualmate said, no need to tug on the mask. Unless you're 12 feet tall you'll need to pull the mask down to reach your face. This action alone pulls out the pin to start the chemical oxygen generator. An 'Oxygen On' flag dropping down in the panel for passengers to see might be reassuring though.

My airline does not mention that the bag on the pax oxygen masks may not inflate, though I've heard it somewhere in a safety briefing. Perhaps this should be included?

This talk about an emergency descent causing ear problems - surely it's the initial depressurisation that causes that? You're going from a pressure altitude of 8,000' to perhaps 41,000' in a matter of seconds. An emergency descent is going to take about 4 minutes (at a typical 8000fpm descent rate).

Agree that a recorded message should be triggered, warning pax of a descent, reminding them to put on their own masks before helping others, and saying that the crew will provide an update as soon as all necessary emergency actions have been successfully completed. Not sure this should triggered by the masks dropping - they have been known to deploy accidentally. Perhaps when one of the flight crew takes out his/her oxygen mask, or when the FO switches the (guarded and wired) Passenger Oxygen Switch to on. (This is done as a memory item in the case of a depressurisation to ensure that the passenger masks have deployed.)

All in all, seems the Ryanair crew did everthing correctly. In the passenger's defence, you can see why they'd fear for their lives though. It's easy to criticise people (and the media), but unless you know how these things work, there's bound to be a bit of hysteria. Bet there are thousands of people out there that don't even know that air pressure drops with altitude. Plenty more seem to think that a depressurisation causes the descent as the plane falls out of the sky.

[jacob79]

Dicksorchard said:

Not once have i ever watched a safety demonstration onboard where i have thought for one minute that the Ryanair Cabin Crew where simply going thru the motions ! Last time I was on an FR flight the F/A dished out a right bollocking to some idiot that was talking during the demo. :D

[carbis22]

Next time put your paper down and listen to what the cabin crew tell you during the safety brief, http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif moron!



Real intelligent comments there:D

When most passengers naively step onboard a pax jet to get from a to b,
most will be in their little bubbles not thinking of the dangers, and I am afraid if thats what you all want pax bubbles burst, then you will all soon be out of jobs??

These passengers that you so easily slag off pay your wages, lets not forget that.
And with the current coverage of fatal air accidents, fume events, full emergancy landings, pax jumping onto tarmac from burning planes ect,
pax would have been unequivicaly frightened for their lives, especially with their little ones sat next to them!
It matters NOT what any safety card says about placing the 50% mix of oxygen and cabin air?? over your face first, any parent would tend to their child first NO MATTER WHAT..

The artic explorer may also be aware of, NOT so commonly reported health risks from a depress,
He will probably be fully aware of the risk of pulmonary odeama, which would be another reason why he would tend to his child first.

The fact that the crew managed to get this aircraft on the ground without fatalities should be applauded, but not without casualtie's..

Maybe you should direct your ignorance and blame away from the pax, and more so towards what caused the depress, and who may be responsible there!

[dicksorchard]

I apologize for the wording of My Previous post Not once have i ever watched a safety demonstration onboard where i have thought for one minute that the Ryanair Cabin Crew where simply going thru the motions !

I get myself easily misconstrued ! but you know what i meant
That they actually performed the safety demonstrations in a very professional manner .

thanks for pointing that out jacob79 (http://www.pprune.org/members/245273-jacob79) :8 Motions indeed !

[Miss Flossy]

As someone who knows a lot of FR cabin crew and pilots I can say that safety is of paramount importance to them and the airline. Cabin crew often talk about how they've had to stop the safety demo's in order to get people to listen. I get SO annoyed when I'm on a flight and people are shouting and talking, in fact I've told other pax to ssshh up before.

Of course the crew aren't going to make an announcement before or during the emergency FFS, what planet are some people on. I don't work in aviation and I know that obviously the number one priority is to get the plane into a safe situation/height before any announcements are made.

It sounds to me like the crew did a sterling job. To the idiot who wonders why the cabin crew weren't checking pax, it's because they have to get oxygen masks on themselves or because of depressurisation they'll die. Doesn't anyone remember that incident in Greece?? This could have happened again. Next time, maybe people will listen to the safety drill.

Ryanair are a NO FRILLS airline whoever was moaning about being treated like cattle. If you pay a tenner, what do you expect. When the flights are on time and all goes smoothly, I don't hear anyone complaining.

Anyway, rant over and :D to the Ryanair crew who got everyone safely on the ground.

[Beausoleil]

itsresidualmate - thanks for the explanation. A useful thing to know just in case.

Maybe briefings could be reworded ("pull the oxygen mask so that at least X feet of tube is visible" might be helpful). Right now the instructions seem to be "pull this thing an unspecified amount - there's no way to tell whether you pulled it enough except that you'll become unconscious and may die if you didn't (thanks for making my point, D Guerrero!) - if you pull it too hard you may break it" All this is to be done while many people are panicking. Subsequent irrational upset is not surprising and might be reduced with a little rewording.

[fireflybob]

Maybe briefings could be reworded ("pull the oxygen mask so that at least X feet of tube is visible" might be helpful). Right now the instructions seem to be "pull this thing an unspecified amount - there's no way to tell whether you pulled it enough except that you'll become unconscious and may die if you didn't (thanks for making my point, D Guerrero!) - if you pull it too hard you may break it" All this is to be done while many people are panicking. Subsequent irrational upset is not surprising and might be reduced with a little rewording.

"It is the action of pulling the mask towards your face that opens the supply of oxygen"......is that piece of information not clear enough?

It matters NOT what any safety card says about placing the 50% mix of oxygen and cabin air?? over your face first, any parent would tend to their child first NO MATTER WHAT..

Responsible parents would surely follow the correct procedures as covered in the briefing - this is why it is mentioned. A parent cannot attend to their children if they are unconscious!

[microlite]

Have travelled at least 7 times with Ryanair in the past 2 weeks and the cabin crew on all of the flights stated that the mask had to be pulled down in order to start the flow of air - I suspect that with the panic people just forgot and expected to have air straight away.

[Rainboe]

I am a frequent commuter on Ryanair as well as an airline pilot of long standing. I have seen numerous safety briefings with them. Out of courtesy, I always pay attention. I am sometimes one of the minority who actually do. It is all there in the briefing! Watch it carefully and LISTEN!

I practice loss of pressurisation drills periodically. There are normally on most types pre-recorded announcements that start when the masks are released manually or automatically- simultaneously switching seat belt signs on as well. The pilots are very very heavily committed to bringing the plane down and talking to ATC and trying to communicate with a large mask on. Talking to the passengers on the PA would cause alarm with the heavy breathing noises and peculiar sound effects. This has to wait until level flight is regained. The cabin crew have to try and survive themselves by grabbing any available mask and holding on, because they know the plane is going to do some peculiar things. Only when level flight is regained and an announcement comes from the pilots can they move and carry out checking the passengers. This is established procedure and is not changeable, despite 'better' ideas from all and sundry.

Ryanair coped well with this one. I detect a bit of 'I'm Pen Hadow- don't you know who I am? Why did the pilot say nothing to me and where are the groundstaff to look after me?' in the radio report I heard. Well done again- some people were hurt because of the emergency. Meanwhile, let's find out what caused the problem- that is all that matters now.

The level of expectation for fares down to 5 euros seems incredible. Limoges is a small Ryanair destination with presumably just a handling agent- Hadow expected boatloads of Ryanair staff running around at his whim! Someone said he went to Eton? Maybe it shows in arrogance!

[itsresidualmate]

No probs Beausoleil.

With reference to this force issue, you can pull a domestic plug out the socket in your living room with as much force and as fast as you want; you aren't going to damage it 'cos once it's out it's out! The only thing you could feasibly damage is the oxygen hose if you pulled it far enough, but unless you have orang-utan arms that isn't going to be a problem!

[Glamgirl]

On the subject of rapid descend, the reason why it is like that, is to get down to breathable air asap, regardless whether the masks are working or not. The oxygen usually lasts 12-15 mins, so we need to get on the ground asap. It's procedure.

On the subject of an automated PA during a decompression, the airline I work for, on the 737, we do have that PA system on board. It also has a recorded announcement for ditching and emergency landing. It is loud, very loud and very clear. It tells pax what's happening and what to do. I may be presumptious, but I would think other airlines have this system as well, but I may be wrong.

Gg

[captjns]

excellent job to the crew!:ok::D

Great to heare that there was just a long haul hiker on the jet and no mindless members of the fourth esate or thespians present.

[LIMpass]

As slipandturn said: "an emergency occurred, and we don't yet know how or why".

The rest is an issue of emergency management and, in this passenger's experience, Ryanair are not good at that.

[Mercenary Pilot]

These passengers that you so easily slag off pay your wages, lets not forget that.

Oh I see, so because some guy pays for a ticket that automatically gives him the right to go on national TV and make accusations that the airline in question acted in an inappropriate manner and supplied defective safety equipment. Do you understand how damaging that can be to an airlines image? :rolleyes:

The incident looks like it was handled exactly by the book, good job.

[carbis22]

Mercenery pilot;;

I guess the fact the the actual incident occurred in the first instance, which gave the pax opportunity to complain would be more damaging to the airlines image, would'nt you agree?

What caused the depress is what's important here imho.

[Rob Bamber]

It occurs to me, and I have not seen it mentioned so far, to ask, immediately after a sudden depressurisation, in what state are people's ears? Are they capable of hearing an announcement? And would a partially understood or misunderstood PA actually increase the chance of panic compared with no announcement? Leaving the PA until everything has levelled out seems sensible to me.

A warning about the rapid descent should be given in the safety briefing, however.

[bunkrest]

From the sounds of things the crew did a very professional job in extremely taxing circumstances.

After a fair many years as cabin crew I believe the realities of emergencies tend to be glossed over by the airline industry and pax in turn encouraged by the promises of a nice shiny plane and a couple of litres of Johhnie Walker's finest don't dwell on the 'what if's'.

Intrestingly research shows that airline pesonnel, those in the military and emergency services are statistically more likely to survive disaster because their training gives them an alternative survival 'script'. (Bypassing the disbelief and deliberation phase that holds other back.)

If a passenger knows that there is a flow indicator that turns green when 02 is flowing; that there is a way of manually dropping the masks; that crew do not make announcements during the emergency decent then panic subsides and already an alternative 'script' is emerging.

However I don't belive the airlines will be advertising the more detailed emergency prodecures any time soon nor would many pax take any heed if they did. Denial, the "It won't happen to me" factor is far more seductive a mindset than the "yes it could and what would I do"

In my view its up to the individual to take responsibility and be as prepared as possible. Stop complaining, do some research, watch the briefing, and improve your chances.

[hexboy]

I have posted this before with the Qantas incident, but I believe it is more relevant now.

Cabin crew should include in their safety briefing something like: "should cabin depressurise, oxy masks will drop and the pilots will immediately carry out a steep controlled descent to an altitude where air is more breathable. No need to panic as it is part of the pilots' training and regularly practiced by them.

I was never a happy passenger, but now that I have a son flying for an airline, one or two conversations with him have put my mind at rest.

People fear the unknown and the unexpected.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I guess the fact the the actual incident occurred in the first instance, which gave the pax opportunity to complain would be more damaging to the airlines image, would'nt you agree?


Unfortunately things break, technology fails and parts wear out. Ryanair's fleet is one of the youngest in Europe and of all the many things that they are accused of, I've yet to hear any aimed at poor maintenance standards. It's more than likely that this incident could have happend to any operator.

[Barnaby the Bear]

I have just been watching the news reports. As everybody has stated on this forum. Had people listened to the safety brief they would have known about the lack of inflation.
Mr Hadow... You are not an expert in this field. The pilots were busy doing their job.... I am sure it was scary for you and the other pax, but at least you are around to winge about it!
I wish the press would stop using the word 'plummet' :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
Sorry I realise everybody has said the same things above.. Just needed to rant. :E

[shotpeened]

Anyone who thinks that emergency depressuriation is a piece of cake needs to look at

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501410.pdf

There is scarcely a higher workload on any flight crew, including the cabin crew than an emergency depressurisation. If pilots start an unannounced emergency descent they are going to cause havock for airliners in all directions travelling below them. So they have to get out a pan call or even a mayday if they need to get the controllers undivided attention (often no mean feat at the best of times), and they have to do that while donning their flight crew masks and at the same time trying to see if there is an immediate fix for the cabin pressure. When they can get clearance they can start their descent. If not they can try to escape sideways into safer airspace for a rapid descent. But their first job is to try to prevent a potential crisis from becoming a major calamity. They must follow the age old lesson that every pilot is taught, aviate, navigate, communicate. the BBC and the media should note the accepted position of the need to communicate.

The cabin staff equally have a very high workload; they have to get their hands on an oxygen mask immediately; they must rush to make the cabin as safe as possible bearing in mind that they may be serving from trolleys (can you imagine hundreds of soft drinks cans and bottles climbing from 8,000 feet to 39,000,000 feet in a few seconds?), and then secure the galley to prevent calamities there.

For both the flight deck crew and the cabin crew this cannot be any time for PA announcements.

The above link stresses the urgent need to see to yourself for oxygen before helping others. One anoxious person helping another does not work.

[VAFFPAX]

Those accusing posters on this thread of being rude to "passengers that you so easily slag off [who] pay your wages" should remember that it is sometimes fellow pax (SLF) who comment negatively on those who make ill-informed/ludicrous/stupid comments, NOT the airline industry professionals (f/c, c/c, etc).

S.

[overthewing]

I'm the poster child for being a 'safe' passenger; I always pay attention to the briefing; I read the laminated card front and back; I count the number of seat backs between me and the nearest exit (and next nearest exit, just in case); I make sure I have a scarf or item of clothing to cover my nose in case of thick smoke; I wear my seat-belt at all times when seated. Short of travelling the whole journey in the brace position, I'm not sure there's much more I could do to increase my survival chances.

Despite all that, I'm far from sure how I would cope in the event of oxygen masks dropping down, etc., because I've never had the opportunity to physically DO any of the things being demonstrated in the safety briefing. I have no idea how close to me the mask would drop, and how hard a 'tug' is required. In the event of landing on water, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't remember how to do the thing with the straps and the pull-cord. I doubt if I could open an emergency door, because I don't know how much pressure is required or whether things should 'click' or engage or whatever.

It's very hard to do something where you have no muscle memory, no experience of the movements required or the sensations experienced.

Even a single run-through would transform awareness and performance. Yet when does a passenger ever get the chance to even touch an oxygen mask or a life-jacket? Why aren't there classes to give us some experience of, say, opening an emergency door?

Trying to work out how to do all these things is not much helped by being in a state of panic and fear.

I wonder how many of us coped perfectly the first time we drove a car that skidded on black ice? Did we smoothly and calmly recall the 'steer-into-the-skid' instructions that we had been told (theoretically)? I bet most of us panicked and slammed on the brakes. We'd handle it better the second, third, tenth time.

Airline passengers have never had the opportunity to rehearse in the way that air-crew have.

[carbis22]

merc,
Right, things break, technology fails ect, and yes these incidents do occurr, people do die, get injured and or sick, fact!

So why does the industry try to cover such instances up, and people quote do you know how damaging this could be?

If your saying that people should be more responsible about paying attention to the safety demos and cards, then one would think media coverage of the air accidents would be a good thing, it will heighten public awareness of the real risks and things breaking, in order that they can act accordingly or in line with what crews expect of their passengers??

At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations, passengers are NOT!!, for both I imagine a scary experience and am pleased that no one has died! again...

[west lakes]

So I have read the theory, in this and other threads, and wondered what do deployed oxygen masks look like.

A quick search & a few clicks later
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Passenger_oxygen_mask_dsc06035.jpg/411px-Passenger_oxygen_mask_dsc06035.jpg

cords clearly visible.

[fireflybob]

If your saying that people should be more responsible about paying attention to the safety demos and cards, then one would think media coverage of the air accidents would be a good thing, it will heighten public awareness of the real risks and things breaking, in order that they can act accordingly or in line with what crews expect of their passengers??

But it's the way the media cover these events that tend to make passengers anxious.

Anything mechanical can fail. Many a/c systems are duplicated and even triplicated. Flying is a bit "risky" just as travelling by car, boat or train carries risks. But the fact is that modern air travel is outstandingly safe. It's the over dramatisation of events such as this by the media and the "vox pox" interviews and/or comments by so-called "experts" which can make passengers fearful. Very rarely, if ever, do the media concentrate on the facts.

[Atreyu]

Quote from Pen Hadow

"It was unfortunate that, for whatever reasons, the flight crew were not able to talk to any of us," he told BBC News.

"We really didn't see them during the main situation at all. They didn't say anything, they weren't visible. We have not heard a squeak.

They weren't visible Pen? :confused: Surely the commander had a leisurely stroll through the cabin, to ensure the Thinking Mans Explorer was comfortable and calm in his oxygen mask?

Is this guy for real?

"We have been through a genuine life-threatening emergency. The runway had fire engines all the way down the line, this was a full-on situation."

Groan...:ugh: A full on situation no less...

Don't eat the yellow snow Pen...

MOL had this to say...

"Passengers sometimes misunderstand and expect there's going to be a surge of oxygen, when in actual fact there's simply a steady stream of oxygen," he said.

"I've been in one of these myself. The oxygen masks were working, the correct safety procedures were followed."

Passengers also complained that the flight crew failed to tell them immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly.

Mr O' Leary said passengers had not been told immediately why the aircraft was descending so quickly because safety had been the crew's priority.

"We have to require that the pilots and the cabin crew deploy their oxygen masks and they can't be making PA announcements while they have their oxygen masks on," he said.

"As the passengers confirmed the pilot did make an announcement once he got down to 8,000ft, when it's safe to take oxygen masks off."

I know if I'm sat with the orange mask on my face, I want the flightcrew to be getting the A/C to a safe level without undue delay, not having a natter with the punters.

I'm sure had they crew left the aircraft at FL350 or whatever and some passengers had evetually died from oxygen starvation, their familes would be quick to sue for criminal negligence, citing the crew had not followed their emergency procedures...

You can't win...

Well done to the all the crew onboard

Atreyu:ok:

[Chris Scott]

That this incident has provoked such a reaction in the chattering classes demonstrates that aviation reached the stage a long time ago where passengers expect and demand a totally sensation-less experience on all flights, and protest vociferously on the very rare occasions when this is not achieved. This is a tribute to the present state of the game. Those who shout loudest are, one suspects, the same ones who think the briefings and safety card are for the benefit of lesser mortals...

I would have hoped, however, that someone of the reputed calibre and daring of Ben Hadow would have been made of sterner stuff, as the majority of well-heeled passengers were in the earlier days of aviation. Waking to his interview this morning, I was disappointed. Frankly, don't think I'd want to be up the swanny with him...

There's been discussion here re the timing of the first announcement. D O Guerro argues that bottom-of-descent may be too early; Baron rouge that this is the best time to do it, because the passengers are in need of the overdue reassurance. I agree with the baron, but there is more to it than that.

The bottom-of-descent PA is chiefly to enable the flight crew to re-establish communication with the cabin crew. Wherever the senior cabin-crew member happens to be situated (he/she might be clinging to a mask in mid-cabin), the PA should be audible. In my airline (I'm now retired), the PA goes something like this:
"The descent is now complete. Will the senior cabin crew member report to the flight deck."

This PA is designed speedily to achieve a number of objectives:
a) to inform ALL cabin crew that they no longer need oxygen and can resume duties in the cabin;
b) to bring the senior cabin-crew member to the cockpit for consultation and briefing;
c) to provide immediate reassurance to the cabin crew, and any passengers who may be listening, that the situation is under control.

Although it is technically possible for either pilot to make a PA during the descent, there is far too high a workload to justify it. The emergency descent is a fairly demanding manoeuvre, which can easily be mishandled and is practised only once a year or so in the simulator; ATC must be informed; and it is vital to establish whether the safety altitude permits descent to 10,000ft or below. [A bit further down the route, they would have been approaching the Pyrenees.]

I am not going to comment on what may have been done (or not done) to reassure the passengers during the diversion to Limoges: we simply don't have the facts yet. But one thing is for sure: workload would have been fairly high for all the crew.

[PBD 1]

Dear Pen Hadow...without any shadow of doubt do I personally want you sat next to me whilst I try and initiate an emergency descent, complete the recall items pull out the QRH for the non normals and supplementaries and miss all the other bits of aluminium tube on the way down!! So glad I dont have to go camping with this chap and employ HIS survival techniques! Well done to the crew...hope everyone is ok now.:ok:

[Duckbutt]

Forgive this extremely naive question from a bloke who only flies as a passenger a couple of times a year but should this situation happen to me, once the mask has dropped and I have put it on and pulled the tube, just how would I know it was working properly and O2 was coming through? Would I feel a draught of cold 'air' or something? Or would there be a smell and/or taste?

I would imagine that even if it was practical to make some sort of announcement during the rapid decent a significant number of passengers would be so scared that they would not take it in. I would therefore agree with the suggestions that a rapid descent is very likely under these circumstances with no announcement at the time should be mentioned in the safety briefing.

[Mercenary Pilot]

But unfortunately the media have chosen to give air time to a man who is saying that the O2 generators had failed because the bags didn't inflate. So now we will have pax who think that the bag should inflate because some previously unknown rambler on TV said so.

At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations, passengers are NOT!

And crews are also trained to understand this fact. Hence why we try to give them pertinent information during flight to try to keep them at ease and comfortable (e.g. clear air turbulence or after a missed approach). Unfortunately this is generally not possible during an emergency because we are busy making sure that the aircraft is under control and in a position to make a safe landing that everybody walks away from.

[Dairyground]

After almost 50 years experience as SLF on types ranging from Super Constellation and DC7C to B777 and A340, I have managed to absorb that:

- you push the metal tongue of the seatbelt into the bit with the handle and unfasten it by raising the handle (though some of the early ones may not have worked exactly like that);

- there is a life jacket under my Economy seat that goes on over my head and is fastened by winding these straps around my waist and fastening them in a double bow, that it has a light that comes on when it is wet, a whistle for attracting attention, and tubes that can be used for topping up the air;

- I should wait until I am outside the aircraft before pulling the red tab to inflate my lifejacket (in case I get stuck in the door/window/elsewhere);

- opening a main door will deploy the slide, but if it does not inflate there is a red tab to be pulled;

- there are floor-level lights to guide me to the available exits, the nearest of which may be behind me (count the rows);

- I should remove my high heels before jumping onto the slide (not sitting down and pushing off), and possibly remove loose items such as spectacles;

- oxygen masks may appear due to lack of air pressure, in which case pull the mask towards me and put it on, securing it with an elastic strap that goes behind my head - and only then look to see if small children or anyone else requires assistance. The act of pulling the mask down towards my face turns on the oxygen flow. The plastic bag does not inflate.

- there are special provisions for small children.

By the time I hear all this I will be settled in my seat, with my seat belt fastened and have reviewed the safety card from the seat pocket in front of me. So if I am reading something interesting I may not give the briefing my full attention. Despite the frequent assertion that all aircraft are different, I may know that I sat through the same briefing on this particular one only a few hours ago. So not all of us who fail to give the briefing our full attention are completely blameworthy.

I have never been in a situation where masks deployed, so I cannot speak from experience on that point. However, it does seem to be a good idea that deployment should be accompanied by an automated message, loud enough to be heard above the noise and in the reduced pressure, containing information on what to do and what to expect. It might even contain an (altitude dependent) segment indicating how much longer the masks will be needed.

It would be nice to have some indication of how hard to pull the mask towards you, but it's a very hard thing to put into words. It might be better if the demonstration could include the realistic appearance of a dummy mask from the ceiling to initial dangle height, with the demonstrator then pulling it down to face level. That would be much more informative than the usual practice of just holding a coil of plastic tubing at arms length with one hand and giving a perfunctory dab of the mask to the face with the other, taking care not to disturb ones hair by actually putting on the mask properly.

One set of questions remains in my mind after all of this, never answered in any briefing I have heard: if the transparent bag does not inflate, why is it there, what can cause it to inflate, and what does it mean if it does blow up?

[wings folded]

I recently took a bus ride. Prior to departing the stop where I boarded, the driver did not deliver a speech informing me that "in the event of an unexpected loss of tyre pressure I will carry out some rather unusual steering corrections"

Nor, I imagine, had the unexpected loss of pressure occurred, would he have said "We have a slighlty unusual situation here, which I thought I would explain to you, and when I have finished, if I have some spare time I will start to think about what to do about it."

Pre flight briefings cannot cover everything and are so rarely listened to anyway (I must be one of the few sad old farts who does listen every time even though I am an SLF of some seniority). Qantas, Ryanair... The crew did what they are trained to do and without fuss.

Maybe aircrew should announce routinely when at Top of Descent "we are now starting to plummet towards Heathrow (or Gatwich or Stansted or whatever)

It would take away the terror of passengers or at least deprive them of the hyperbole when interviewed afterwards

[itsresidualmate]

Dairyground, if your bum is on the seat and the mask is on your face then the pin is pulled and the candle's burning. The lanyard won't reach a face that's sat on a seat.

And a demonstration of the force required to pull the mask? My two year old daughter would have the pin out without even trying! As any engineer will tell you, just looking at an oxy generator pin is enough to have the bloody thing fall out!

[mattford51]

Duckbutt.

A good indication of the oxygen mask not working is when you keel over and lose consciousness.

[otto_25]

this guy is a dick I'm sorry but had to have my say,,,

posted on his personal web site.............


mr hadow

are you aware that ryanair does 1100 flights per day over europe? and in 2007 just over 40 million passengers alone without any major issues,
were you expecting the pilots to give a live comentary while trying to deal with the emergency and concentrate with saftey of getting the plane to a safe level?
did you even listen to the safety briefing or look at the safety cards on how to activate the oxygen masks?
the fact that you are here talking about it proves there was O2 suplied to you other wise you would have been unconcious

I dont no If its because your moment of glory has passed and you are trying to get back in the lime light, but i think what you are saying is the biggest load of fictional rubish i have heard in a long time,
the only reson the news took note of it was for the fact every small thing that is arising in the aviation world at the moment is being made a big deal of after the fatal spanair flight. if it wasnt for that it wouldnt have even made the headlines,,

[Paddington]

In theory it might be a good idea to have more passenger information available about what could happen in a non-normal situation. It would be good if passengers (and press) realised that an emergency descent is the correct and safest pilot response to a depressurisation.

However where do you draw the line? e.g. Do you tell passengers about the yaw to be expected in the event of an engine failure? Or what smoke in the cabin would really be like. Or how loud it will be if the landing gear doesn't retract properly? And what about the 1001 other possible events that could happen on any particular flight?

And would you really want this in the pre-flight safety demo - instead of 4 minutes it would turn into the length of a 4 hour sim check!

Perhaps we could have a little more written info though on the safety briefing card for those interested. What do you think, would that be reassuring or unduly worrying?

[marchino61]

Out of all the survivable emergency events, surely depressurisation is the most common?

I mean, landing on water....and surviving...how many times has it happened? Single figures?

then there is the emergency landing with slides....happens occasionally.

I would imagine the depressurisation events are far commoner and almost 100% survivable.

So I would say it would pay to give a bit more emphasis to this and explain in the safety briefing exactly what will happen.

[ChrisLKKB]

Picking through the bones, it sounds as if everything went according to the training manuals, the guys up front acted properly, the cabin crew acted properly and the aircraft systems worked properly......not much of a story really is it ?;) (except as long as my assumptions are correct, well done to the crew:cool:)

You can't do anything about the public making a drama out of a non-crisis but with regard to the workshy mountain climber, judging by his web site he's not lacking in self promotional skills, it sounds like he's used this incident to gain a bit of free publicity at the expense of putting the company and crew is a bad light....what a dick!

Regarding making a PA, it's been mentioned that the crew were probably donning their own oxygen masks and the chaps up front were a bit busy so they weren't able to make any announcements. What I don't think has been mentioned is that the cabin crew probably didn't know exactly what was happening themselves, i've no doubt they had a good idea but surely it's not their job to preempt the Captain?

As for recorded messages, it would be a bit of a sod if the wrong one went off because it's impossible to cover every eventuality giving mis leading information.

Anyone care to speculate what the possible causes of explosive depressurisation are on that aircraft are ?

[otto_25]

well said!! couldnt have worded it better my self PMSL

[theron]

first let me say the pilot not saying anything until the situation was safe is a no brainer.

also, people should listen to the pre flight safety briefing, even if you have heard it a million times already since you may distract someone else who needs to hear it or cause other passengers to become complacent when its their 1st time.

i have never experienced a depressurisation, but im confident i would know what to do and how to behave. however something has struck me as being a bit strange, there seems to be no obvious, consistent indication that the oxygen is flowing?

i think a visual indication that a passenger could use to see if they have correctly tugged at the oxygen masks might help? i imagine something like a black dot (or red cross) means not tugged, green dot (or green tick)means tugged and working, positioned just next to where the mask drops from. This way a pax may know if they need to tug harder or even move on to another mask since passing out isnt a great way of finding out. maybe just a physical click, if there isnt one already, would help.

im very aware of upsetting people or saying the wrong thing in pprune, let me know if u dont like what ive said ill delete/edit no problem:)

[helimutt]

Glamgirl said
The oxygen usually lasts 12-15 mins, so we need to get on the ground asap. It's procedure.


It's procedure to get below 10,000' anyway. You can breath ok at that level. As for getting on the ground, possibly mid atlantic? asap may be a couple hours.

[bunkrest]

Theron

Very good point. There is actually a flow indicator for each Passenger mask located on the tubing (not something that is ever covered in the briefing) if memory serves me it turns green when O2 is flowing and remains clear when not.

[luvly jubbly]

In my QRH it clearly states to communicate straight after donning the masks... I never realised that this meant to the Passengers!! But thanks for clearing that up, explorer bloke!

Seriously though, when one of our aircraft had the rubber jungle come down, many passengers put them on their ears! People do not listen to safety briefs.

No pilot will do a PA when he should be saving the aircraft, so for the benefit of any stupid passengers expecting a running commentary of the ongoing emergency.........YOU WON'T HEAR FROM ANY CREW UNTIL A SAFE, BREATHABLE ALTITUDE!

PS. BBC DOUBLE STANDARDS.... The Ryanair crew did things exactly by the book. Please stop trying to make them look inept. They did a great job. When it was BA, you were full of praise for the crew.:=

[Parsnip]

Hang on a minute, PEN HADOW now what sort of a name is that, sounds a bit to me like Bear Grylls (he's really called Derek), anyway this Pen character is according to his peers the most adventurous polar explorers of present times, and he's trekked all the way to the North Pole and everywhere else South, without oxygen, kentucky fried chicken, and wearing nowt more than a pair of wooly pants his mam knitted him.
And now he's in an emergency situation,(which lets be honest it was) he panics the whole of the flying public of the UK with stories of reckless plummets and oxygen masks that don't work
Sounds like a bit of free telly publicity to me, maybe he's looking for sponsors for the Great North Run

[Irishtjs]

I wonder how it would have been reported if the livery had 'British' written on it.......:=

[luoto]

I've seen a few mentions of different air flows when the rubber jungle emerges. What is the flow ? I use supplemental o2 at night for example and that is at 2l/min and certainly that's no woosh (less of a woosh compared to the CPAP equipment used previously) and at 1.5 l/m it is even less noticeable you have to check is it on sometimes .

[Mike Read]

I have had two decompression incidents. One as slf and one as a pilot. Both were on BAC 1-11s and that series of a/c was not permitted to fly above FL350 as it didn't have drop out masks for the pax. If my memory is correct we carried 17 masks for 99 pax.

The first occasion happened at TOD so we descended rapidly to 8000ft or so and then landed at LHR normally. Some pax were a little breathless for a while but there were no problems and the cabin crew did a good job of reassurance and nobody suffered.

The second time, having departed MAN we had just reached TOC near Woodley when both air systems failed. I could see LHR on our left so we declared an emergency when well in the descent and were aware of a white faced chief steward with his portable oxygen on standing behind us in the flight deck waiting for instructions. (That couldn't happen now!) We met the cabin going up at about FL220. Again, no problem really. A quick a/c change and continued with the journey. And of course nothing appeared in the media for either event.

I suspect that in yesterday's incident if the punters had put their masks on even if they were not aware of O2 flowing they were working. How many died of anoxia?

[TARTAN]

Just to clarify one point. It has been stated that airliners no longer use
oxygen bottles. This is not quite correct. Our a/c which are 737-200's
do still use the bottles rather than the oxy generators. Maybe it is a
technical point but thought that I would mention it.

[carbis22]

747,

natural parent reaction,
how quick was rapid decent, seconds, minutes??
16 that we know of rushed to hospital??

[carbis22]

Signs of odeama whether it be cerebal or pulmonary, or even signs of ams
would not always be immediate.

[corsair]

I wonder how it would have been reported if the livery had 'British' written on it.......

Probably the same, given that Ryanair is the airline everyone loves to hate and it's boss MOL is the enfant terrible of the business. That's undeniable. The antipathy towards Ryanair is all about Ryanair and MOL. The flag on the side is nothing to do with it. Stop looking for offence where none exists.

It got the coverage because a couple of mouthy individuals were on board including that ass Hedow who has made a complete plonker of himself.

Frankly in the oxygen mask case. I never heard of an issue with it before. All I know is that if they deploy. I put the nearest one on. The technicalities are lost on me. The lack of any communication from the flight deck would imply to me that they were a tad busy and that this was an emergency. All pretty obvious. I would have thought, unless, apparently, you are well travelled polar explorer. Who quite frankly seems to have all but panicked. Then compounded it by mouthing off to the BBC.

[merlinxx]

It happens, a textbook recovery, what's the problem?

[williewalsh]

Just posted on Hedows website. That feels better:ok:


Sir,
You describe yourself as a leader of men in hostile enviroments. Following your comments on the RYR incident God help your men.
I suggest you do some research before critising the crew who saved your life following drills to the letter.I hope you take greater care in knowing your emergency equipment for your upcoming expedition than you did during the safety brief on that aircraft. If you have any emergencies on your upcoming trip can we expect a "piece to camera" while you plummet into a crevass, or will you just be saving your ass.
I would also suggest you research the possibility of securing a refund for your private education.
I have never heard such a load of self opinionated tosh from an alleged "leader of men".
At least Bear Grylys is silly to the point of amusing.You are just an ill informed egocentric snob and a victim of your own bullshit. I hope to God you never held a Queens commission because you confuse leadership with arrogance

[wazzer1976]

Frankly in the oxygen mask case. I never heard of an issue with it before. All I know is that if they deploy. I put the nearest one on. The technicalities are lost on me. The lack of any communication from the flight deck would imply to me that they were a tad busy and that this was an emergency. All pretty obvious. I would have thought, unless, apparently, you are well travelled polar explorer. Who quite frankly seems to have all but panicked. Then compounded it by mouthing off to the BBC.


Well said!!!:D

[usedtofly]

I think the real problem here is that Pen Hadow is an A*se ! and that the media love these kind of Terror stories

The descent was well executed and conformed to standard aviation practice. I would agree tho that there is an argument for making it clearer in the safety announcements that in the event of decompression the aircraft will descend steeply and rapidly.

The sad truth is that pax too often pay little attention to the safety brief. The problem is that if we say it like it could/will be then we would frighten the passengers to death before even taking off!

[captplaystation]

williewalsh,
perfect response, nuff said.

[boeing320]

williewalsh - you hit the nail on the head.
We can only hope most people have more imagination about what was going on in the cockpit during this situation than that guy did :}

and well done the BBC - what amazing balanced reporting!!!!!!!!!

not

[OFSO]

Dear Pen Hadow: I was so sorry to hear of your death from lack of oxygen on the Ryanair flight yesterday. Very sad. Oh ? You're not dead ? But the supply wasn't working, you said - and the descent took almost 11 minutes. And you must have been burning a lot of energy, spreading A & D among the PAXs in your function as Leader of Men. Good lungs, then.

Ah well: next time fly British Airways, I'm sure you can afford it. And they'll know how to treat someone who Makes a Difference (although if you knew What Was What, you'd have realised this applies more to the Ryanair crew flying your plane than you...)

[Pom Pax]

Long haul over night lights dimmed 90% of pax asleep (10%? very soundly asleep had a few G&Ts as a night cap perhaps), no loud announcement happily sleep on.
And before anybody suggests another pax will you give a nudge, I have been on flights with a 20% load factor and the nearest or pax is a long way away down the back and in the better class of travel (twice) with only one other pax.

[beamender99]

Overthewings said


Short of travelling the whole journey in the brace position, I'm not sure there's much more I could do to increase my survival chances.



Well on departure I ensure my shoes stay on until the seat belt sign goes off.
I ensure my shoes are back on early ( Feet swell but compression stockings help) ready for arrival.

Having been told that in smoke your eyes shut after 15 seconds I have a pair of swim goggles kept on me. They are also by me in any hotel room
( after having counted the doors from fire exits to my door )

p.s.
My thanks to ???? for the reply to my earlier question


RANT....
The BBC R4 is still broadcasting that Hadow rubbish but did also include MOL's reply. Rant over.

[Teddy Robinson]

Doesn't matter what is painted on the tail.. well done. :D

[Rightbase]

I'm very happy so say I have never heard the briefing after a depressurisation event, but it sounds as though there is scope to improve the reassurance element of this briefing.

Could it usefully include an observation that the descent was a well rehearsed safety procedure, and confirm that the oxygen supply to the masks is a trickle feed rather than a pressurised delivery system?

This might help passengers to understand the episode they have just been through, and save them the embarrassment of making uninformed comments afterwards..

[sapco2]

Ignore all the idiotic criticism guys/gals, you did a great job, well done!

You can bet your bottom dollar, those who complained loudest about their oxygen not working were the same people with their heads buried in newspapers during the safety brief.

[Scimitar]

WHAT HAPPENED TO CAUSE THE DECOMPRESSION?

Having waded through 7 pages (of which the usual 90% is utter rubbish) no one has yet said what caused it!

To those passengers who do listen carefully to the Safety Brief, well done. May you and your loved ones always fly safely. And, just to reiterate, if the masks drop when you are in your seat the action of moving the mask to your face will be enough to get the oxygen flowing. You may however feel a slight resistance in doing so and a gentle tug will do the trick.

To those of you who can't be bothered with the Safety Brief, and I include those who think they know better (particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete @rse!) maybe you can learn something from this. Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin) are very highly trained professionals who, in any emergency situation, will be doing just what they have been trained to do. Remember also that they are as keen as you are to get home in one piece.

[AOB9]

As a regular traveller on Ryanair I have to admit to the 'No Frills' approach leaves a lot to be desired if you like your comforts. But, as a passenger I know that saving ALL lives and the a/c is the focus in incidents like this regardless of which airline you happen to be flying with. It is obvious to all that this is what the crew did in this case.

This ongoing issue with 'RYANAIR BASHING' is becoming boring and has now spread to the media.

All involved should be proud of themselves.

I'm sure pilots ( and crew ) get fairly angry when the media pick holes in their best efforts???????

[Nemrytter]

Someone somewhere for this incident to have occurred as screwed up and all you can do is persecute an eye witness account, that none of you witnessed yourselfs, get someone on here that was on this flight, otherwise the rest is complete BS

Aaah, the blame culture. Surely it would be more appropriate to find what went wrong and try to figure out how to stop it. Simply finding the person who (possibly) did something wrong won't stop it happening again.
Whatever it was that happened, I too am interested in knowing what the cause of depresurisation was. I've only quickly skimmed the thread but can't see it anywhere, do we not yet know what actually happened?

[carbis22]

Simonpro,

Thankyou, finally someone with some common sense and not attacking the affected pax, seems like a bit of jealousy to me,

Thats all anyone should wish to know, what went wrong, what fault occurred and explanations, thats all the pax will be interested in, they will want answers, and anyone reading this thread, well the sensible people will to wish to know some answers, explanations.:ugh:

[sapco2]

:ugh: Cabris22, reading comments such as yours reminds me of why I left passenger flying to fly freight!:ok:

[fireflybob]

Thats all anyone should wish to know, what went wrong, what fault occurred and explanations, thats all the pax will be interested in, they will want answers, and anyone reading this thread, well the sensible people will to wish to know some answers, explanations.

carbis22, you miss the point - ALL of us as professional flight crew want to know the FACTS so maybe we can learn something new but the media only want to sell a story. As they say, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

[carbis22]

scimitar,
(particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete @rse!) maybe you can learn something from this. Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin)


BMJ or NEMJ, posting 5th July 2007, Boeing research into hape, hace and ams.

[strake]

"Just remember that the crew (both flight deck and cabin) are very highly trained professionals who, in any emergency situation, will be doing just what they have been trained to do."

And therein lies the truth....they have been trained, in fact drilled in the emergency situation...not just read what to do from a book or attended a lecture, they have carried out the process over and over again until it's second nature.

It really is not fair to keep criticising the passengers from the comfort of a keyboard. You can read legislative safety briefings to passengers until you are blue in the face (no oxygen pun intended) but unless they have experienced a mask dropping down and have pulled it onto their face and understood not to expect a rush of flowing gas, they will not know what to expect. Same for lifejackets...can you imagine what it would be really like trying to get 350 people to put their jackets on in an emergency?

The reality is that these events are few and far between and when something happens, it's either like this one, a trained-for event for the crew which increases the heartbeat slightly (but obviously frightening for those in the back) or an absolute no hoper as seen in Madrid, where a safety briefing is irrelevant.

[critical alpha]

Bravo to the Flightdeck and Cabin crew. Situation handled thoroughly and in a professional manner. I would be glad to have this crew in an emergency.

[rhutch1011]

Seat62K said... "My understanding is that some passengers needed medical attention because the rapid descent had caused ear difficulties. I have heard of perforated eardrums in such circumstances."

In this case, any ear problems would have been caused by the DEPRESSURISATION event itself, not the speed of the descent. High rates of descent CAN cause ear difficulties in NORMAL operations as with some aircraft the standard cabin pressure rate of change cannot keep up with a rapid aircraft descent and therefore has to be increased thus causing discomfort to some.

[tykepilot]

I suppose, that many of us were expecting a little more fortitude and, a little less petulance from such an intrepid explorer.

[EI-CFC]

dicksorchard: I flew to Limoges with FR and the cabin crew during the safety demonstration were in fits of giggles to the point that the demonstration had to be interrupted several times while they recomposed themselves. Not amusing.

Not quite sure that's endemic to Ryanair.

Was once on a BD flight where the safety video didn't work and the crew couldn't pull together the manual demonstration at all. In fact, I'm sure on every airline flying, there has been a passenger who could tell a story of this nature.

[VANWILDER]

Very well done Guy's....! It was done 100% to the book.., and hope you get the pat on the back you all deserve....! :D

[Mark in CA]

This is a classic difference of perceptions.

Flight deck and cabin crew have been taught from day one to view flying from one perspective while passengers have been brainwashed by the airlines to view flying from an entirely different one. When something goes wrong and shocks passengers from this dream, the result is what we see here.

Flight deck and cabin crew know that flying, while very safe, is fraught with potential dangers, and have been trained to deal with them. In the unlikely event that something unusual does happen, they hopefully have the presence of mind to deal with it as they have been trained to.

Passengers have been lulled by airlines into thinking that flying isn't much different from sitting in their living rooms. You have music, video, magazines, food, etc. to distract you from the fact that you're hurtling through space in a metal tube. The upper classes can get downright luxurious. The airlines really don't want them to be thinking about anything that might go wrong. Safety briefings are often perfunctory, saying just enough to satisfy the FARs. And for 99.99% of the time, this is sufficient. When something does go wrong, is it any wonder that passengers are totally unprepared to deal with it? They likely have no idea what to expect, no way to assess the level of danger, no experience with processing all the sensations they are encountering. They are frightened, in shock, adrenalin pumping, and each individual reacts to this differently. How could anyone expect rational thought from them. They feel helpless and are completely at the mercy of the crew, who they look to for guidance.

Telling passengers to pay attention to the safety briefing isn't going to help much. Nothing can prepare passengers for what they will actually experience if they haven't been through it before. Pity the poor passengers on that recent Quantas flight. Why should they be expected to experience anything other than absolute fear when without warning their peaceful flight is suddenly interrupted by complete pandemonium? Other than perhaps a few, who among them should be expected to maintain the presence of mind to do exactly as they were told during the three-minute briefing that occurred hours earlier. All they are thinking about at that moment is the sudden realization of their mortality and that they are, in fact, hurtling through the air at a great height with tremendous speed in a flimsy metal tube.

[NotPilotAtALL]

Hi,

Due to my job (offshore drilling) I make (mandatory) full survival courses for helicopters ditching ... etc..... in real environnement
I must recognize .. it's completely different (physics and mental) of what you read in a safety leaflet.
So for be honest ... yes the passengers must be feel naked facing a emergency situation.
I understand their fears and comments.
Now.. I see a insurmontable difficulty (no faisable) to implement mandatory real safety courses for airlines passengers .

Cheers.

[virginpilot1087]

Did not wade through the pages so appoligies if someone already posted this, but for those like me who went to the last page

here is the current Ryanair safty brief

YouTube - Ryanair cheap flights funny (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g3so6AJe4UQ)

[raffele]

There are many valid points. Kudos indeed to the Ryanair crew who did a great job and brought everyone to safety.

It's interesting reading the reactions of pax on this flight, and those on the Qantas a month or so ago. The Qantas pax were in a similar situation - well, except for that huge hole in the fuselage - in that they weren't told about the descent until after the crew had brought the plane to a safe altitude. And again, after that questions were raised about PAs (though not in as much excruciating detail as this incident) and possibility of automated PAs.

Automated PA's are possible. Those who read about the accidental triggering of the water emergency on a BA flight a few weeks back will know. I'm guessing at some point the authorities will insist that additional information for depressurisation events (ie, not including another explanation on how to deploy the oxygen) be included in safety briefings as a result of these two high profile events (which, by the way - MSNBC was headlining as "Mid air panic as jet plunges 26,000ft"). However, as only about 10-20% of pax listen to the briefing in the first place, where's the blame going to go in a depressurisation event? Rock and hard place spring to mind.

But again - well done to the Ryanair crew who brought them to safety by following procedures!

Oh! and a final point from me. If you listened to that extract from the Today programme, did people pick up on this Arctic explorer's assumption as to why the masks "weren't working"? It was something along the lines of "perhaps the pilot thought the emergency oxygen didn't need switching on..."

[Marsh Hawk]

Well done Ryanair, everyone safe and sound is the desirable outcome. :D

Don't listen to Pen Hadow. He doesn't understand that you were just too busy with emergency procedures to personally come to him and explain exactly what was going on during the "main situation". I think his feelings were hurt!!! :{

[steamchicken]

Quite a lot of safety- and operations-critical stuff (and not very critical at all stuff) has some form of "it works" indicator. For example, the UK's nuclear warning system in the cold war propagated a regular beep over the wires all the time; you turned up the volume to check it was there. It was officially described as a "confidence tone".

Telecoms engineers these days actually add artificial "line noise" so you know the phone hasn't gone dead when it's actually waiting for a switch somewhere to respond. The system itself would give you pure silence; we got so good at acoustic and line echo cancellation that a significant percentage of callers think the line is dead and hang up. On less critical things, folk do this all the time; if you have a progress bar on some piece of software, users will actually perceive it as working faster if it makes steady progress rather than jumping forwards as each (whatever) is completed.

So yes, oxy feedback please. At the very least it'll save me having to put up with Sid & Doris Bonkers in the next two seats trying to yell that the bag hasn't inflated through their masks.

[ChrisLKKB]

There's a Ryan Air safety briefing there also YouTube - Ryanair safety demo (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wklnjZ8-jeQ&feature)

No mention of tugging on the oxygen masks to operate them and it clearly says 'adults traveling with children should attent to their own masks first'. It also reminds pax to read the safety card which iirc covers everything in the briefing. Pretty much the same routine as any full cost airline.

Could Mr Pen Hadows middle name name be Is ?...just thinking out loud.

[bunkrest]

Steam chicken

As mentioned in my previous post - allay Sid and Doris' fear by pointing to flow indicator on each pax mask ( half way up or therabouts on tubing) - its turned green! Thank the Lord - Hypoxia and imminent death avoided !

[parsi]

This thread is worrying and it shows the gap between pros and the public. I work in IT and it dawned on me one day that our users didn't really understand what we all took for granted.

This thread is the same. Passengers don't know what the Pros know. They don't know whether to tug or not, they certainly don't know if the bag inflates or note (and there seems to bea lack ofclarity on this). They are insulted and told that if they had listened to the 3min safety briefing they'd have been alright.

If a 3min safety briefing is enough to teach you how to put on a life jacket, use emergency oxygen and open emergency doors then why do cabin crew have to spend sooo much longer learning that ?

People were worried, it's natural, they weren't trained for it. The media reported their fears. An ideal response (to the media reports) would be to detail what happened and also mention that it's usual to have a smell and additional heat when the oxygen candles start to work; that yes the masks are covered in talc so that they don't stick etc.

It's unfair and ignorant to be so brutally critical towards passengers who were shocked and who didn't know what to expect.

[AMEandPPL]

Interesting to note that although polite and relevant comments have been removed from here (very recently) , offensive and inaccurate stuff such as
particularly carbis22 who has shown himself to be a complete . . . . .
is allowed to remain in situ. . . . . . . .

Presumably this one will go the same way . . . . . no explanation, of course ! :ugh:

[sapco2]

You've raised a valid point parsi but let's play devils advocate here. The next time you fly, just look around you and observe how many passengers actually listen to the 3 minute brief - you'll be shocked by what you see! It's those who do listen to the safety brief who are best able to deal with an emergency!

Similarly when you check into a strange hotel, it's those who study the floor plan and fire exit locations before going to sleep who are most likely to survive a resulting fire!

It's not rocket science... both scenarios are potentially hostile and warrant a little forethought!

[ChrisLKKB]

If a 3min safety briefing is enough to teach you how to put on a life jacket, use emergency oxygen and open emergency doors then why do cabin crew have to spend sooo much longer learning that ?

It only takes 3 mins to teach them everything in the safety briefing, the rest of the time is spent teaching them how to sort out all the passengers who didn't listen to the safety briefing...sorry but you walked into that one:ok:

Just heard on the radio, Ryan Air will be contacting the pax on the flight in question to appologise for any distress caused :rolleyes:

[oldpax]

Most safety briefings do show you how to "tug" on the mask!Most passengers take very little notice of the safety briefing,perhaps they could do it before leaving the gate and have some passenger participation!

[surreysue]

2 of the 3 aircraft I fly on use the "ring main" or bottle system so each mask in the unit has to be pulled individually to start the flow of oxygen.
Someone earlier said Boeing were behind the times (or something similar ) - all 3 Boeing aircraft I fly on have an automatic decompression announcement that plays when the masks come down so it must be an optional extra that the individual airline can choose to have fitted.
The cabin lights will also automatically turn on to bright and the seat belt signs will illuminate so you don't need to worry on night flights.
Cabin crew understand passengers are completely out of their comfort zone - if they weren't you wouldn't need us.
I appreciate it was a frightening experience, for the crew as well as the passengers, but it sounds like it was handled well and I would have thought gratitude would be a more appropriate response than criticism from Mr Hadow.

[Glamgirl]

I found this clip on that famous film clip site. It's not Ryanair, but I just wanted to show how pax don't listen to the safety demo.

I apologize that I don't know how to do a "clicky", and I apologize if this link doesn't work. It's a fairly long (and partly boring) clip, but it's just the beginning you need to watch (if you wish).

YouTube - Scary Landing at (GOT) Gothenburg Airport (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iza5uGIqccU&NR=1)

Gg

[Rainboe]

What poncey creep calls himself 'Pen' then? What is this? Some 'Boy named Sue' Let's-call-ourselves-by-a-girlie-name name? Who exactly is Mr. Hadow? What does it do? What's with the attitude of 'do you know who I am? (er....no) Are you aware I need as much publicity as what I can get so I am going to crawl all over you to raise my own profile and make lots of noise about this?' (er....ye....I'm getting the picture). 'And if that means I have to tear apart the professional reputations of the crew (who did a magnificent job) and the airline (who are OK), then they may go down knowing it was for a good cause (my publicity)! (er.....yes, I think I can see that is going to happen). 'Did you know I went to Eton?' (er....it appears to have done not a lot for you).

Thank you for your contribution to aviation Mr. Hadow. Now you may return to your previous state of anonymity.

[overthewing]

Most passengers take very little notice of the safety briefing,perhaps they could do it before leaving the gate and have some passenger participation!

The safety briefing is a mantra, almost without meaning. What more is there to learn after the first fifty, hundred, thousand times of listening? The only new piece of information to take in is the number of rows between you and the emergency exits, and for that you don't need to watch someone demonstrate how to undo a seatbelt. You are not going to get better at saving yourself in an emergency according to how many times you concentrate on the briefing.

No matter how many times you watch a person in a uniform fasten the ties around their waist and waggle the air-topup tube, you learn nothing new until you actually do it yourself. Who would expect a non-driver to watch a video of someone driving a car, and then expect them to go out and drive perfectly?

Why don't airlines let you practice? Why can't you try putting on a lifevest during your interminable wait at the gate? Why doesn't every gate have a demonstration oxygen mask? In all the space devoted to duty-free, why isn't some provision made for a patch where you could practice opening emergency doors?

Why don't aircraft have numbers above the rows, indicating number of rows to the exit in front, and the exit behind? Trying to spot the row where the crew member is vaguely signaling an exit, is hard on a long plane; why don't they say 'Exits at Row 15', or whatever, so you could do some calculations?

Why are you allowed to shove luggage under the seat in front, presumably jamming the lifejacket of the person in front? Why are you encouraged to put carry-ons the weight of small cars into the overhead lockers, where there's a good chance they'll come undone in turbulence and drop onto passengers' heads?

Why do they lower the cabin lights for night landings (in order to maximise night vision in case of evacuation), but encourage you to put on reading lights that negate the effect?

Why are you told about adopting the brace position, in seats so cramped, it's impossible for a tallish adult to do so?

Why are you allowed to stuff litres of flammable liquid under your seat / in the lockers, instead of putting it in some secure location?

The whole safety culture is so half-hearted and unconvincing - so stuck in limbo between 'glamorous and effortless travel' and 'means of transport where big things can go wrong very quickly' - it's hardly surprising that 'customers' treat that safety briefing with limited respect.

[brightstardolphin]

No opinions from me, I do not know enough about the subject....just congratulations to the flight deck and the cabin crew for their professionalism... as someone said... "you guys earn your entire years salary in five mins by making sure that everyone arrived safe.... and alive"
:ok:
WELL DONE!

[Glamgirl]

Overthewing,

If you're on board an aircraft and would like a closer look at any of the safety demonstration equipment, such as the oxygen mask, all you have to do is ask... I'd be happy for you to have a little play with it (as long as I get it back in one piece). If you need clarification on anything in the procedures, all you have to do is ask. If I get no questions, I assume everyone is happy with how things work, as I can't ask everyone individually if they understood or need clarification. We'd never get off the ground...

In regards to a practice area in the terminal. Good idea, but when you think about how many different aircraft types there are and different equipment, the area would take up so much space that the airport authority would lose out of valuable shop space. Also, how would you feel if you "practiced" equipment for a B737 just to walk on board an A320? The doors are different, and some equipment vary from airline to airline.

Airlines do take safety seriously, believe it or not. If we didn't, we'd all be out of business.

If you still need explanations to certain things about flying/safety/etc, feel free to start another thread for such questions or you're more than welcome to pm me if you wish. I will try my best to have an explanation for you.

Hope this clarifies somewhat and is helpful.

Gg

[OPENDOOR]

Quite.
To all those involved in a/c safety. I am sure you will wish to join me in congratulating Mr. Pen Hadow, the Arctic explorer and the BBC Today program for their outstanding contribution to public awareness of in flight emergency procedures.
For example;
“Mr. Hadow said some of the oxygen masks failed to work and the crew did not make any announcements to reassure passengers”
“The next thing, the oxygen masks were dropping. My highest priority was to get a mask on to my son who was sitting next to me in a bemused and frightened state.
"It was obvious to me that there was depressurisation in the cabin but there was no announcement and no evidence of the cabin crew for most of this experience. Why on earth didn't they give a few more calming words to the passengers?"
He added his mask "wasn't filling up with oxygen and neither was my son's".
He said. "He was hyperventilating. I looked at the lady on my left and her's hadn't filled up either. From where I was sitting I could see about 20 masks and only a few of them were inflating. It was extremely variable as to who got oxygen in their masks, and the cabin crew didn't seem to know what to do."
I am sure Mr. Hadow would welcome your thoughts. [email protected] ([email protected]) :rolleyes:

[overthewing]

Glamgirl, that's a very kind offer, and if there is some way to 'get my hands' on real equipment, I would be most interested.

It never occurred to me that I could ask to see the things they use for the security briefing; usually the cc do the demo during the taxi, then pack the equipment away and take seats for take-off. By the time the seat-belt signs go out, the cc are normally rushing to get trolleys out, and it seems heartless to bother them with an extra request.

In any case, I feel this is a responsibility that belongs to a different part of the process. I would much prefer spending the two hours before boarding, in a training room where I could familiarise myself with multiple door types, and perhaps have a go at throwing myself down a small slide, than wandering about displays of perfume and Harrods tea! If the airport authorities aren't keen for me to do that - on the basis that it would stop me from spending money - that tells us a lot about the REAL safety consciousness of the business.

I am always prepared to pay more for a seat if it comes from an airline with a good reputation for reliable aircraft and safe flights. Any airline that offered me a chance to maximise my own personal survival chances, by letting me educate myself - would have me on its frequent flyer program at once. If nothing else, it's a business opportunity going astray!

[Feux Verts]

I'm ex PPL and not flown for 20 years until I flew on Ryanair in May. The Cabin Crew on that flight were spot on with the safety demo and I understood all they were passing on. If that flight had been the de pressurised flight I'm sure I would have been comfortable with what was happening.

What can I say - the Flight Crew and the Cabin Crew did the job exactly as trained. Mr O'Leary handled the Press correctly.

The crew deserve a major round of applause for reacting as they did.

:D:D:D

[Glamgirl]

Overthewing,

I hear what you're saying. I'd just like to point out that it's not the airlines that run the airports, so the airlines don't really get a say in what is placed in the terminal.

You could email different airlines and ask if you can somehow come to their training facilities to have a go at doors etc. I doubt if you will be allowed, due to security issues, but if you don't ask, you don't get.

In regards to the doors, they are heavier than they look, especially on the 737 (no power assist). Therefore, health and safety and what we call manual handling comes into training as well as the technicality of opening the doors.

Honestly, feel free to ask the crew to have a look at the equipment at some point. Part of our job is to be able to reassure our pax and if that reassures you, then I'd definately be more than happy to oblige.

You do have to trust us though, that we all have excellent training and know our jobs.

Gg

[Feux Verts]

Steamchicken
For example, the UK's nuclear warning system in the cold war propagated a regular beep over the wires all the time; you turned up the volume to check it was there. It was officially described as a "confidence tone"Of course that was providing the 6v battery in the WB400 hadn't gone flat!!!

FV

[Flower Duet.]

All Aircraft types are different and some masks are activated by pulling
on one mask, and other Aircraft you need to pull on your own mask.

[snoepys]

I think the crew should be congratulated for the way they dealt with the situation.I wish the passegers would realise the pilots priority is not on making a ******* pa during a rapid depressuriation!!.The priority is to make an emergency descent and bring the aircraft down to safe level where passengers can breathe without the use of an oxygen mask.And as for the cabin crew how can passengers complain that they never made a pa.They also need to have their oxygen masks on.They crew all followed the correct procedures.And just because this idiot Pen Hadow who gave an interview to reporters is an Artic Explorer it doesnt mean he knows more than anyone else.In fact why is he quoted as being an Artic Explorer,what relevance does that have to anything.Ryanair handled this situation in an very professional way.

[Buzzdoff]

Mr Pen Hadow shoots himself spectacularly in the foot when it is proven that his oxygen mask did work when operated properly. If he is an accomplished explorer then there is hope for us all, personnally I congratulate him in getting all the way from Devon to Bristol Airport. He said his son was bemused during the incident................only because he sat next to his dad.

[overthewing]

Glamgirl, I have absolute confidence in most cabin crew I've flown with (although Garuda was not an experience I ever want to repeat)! I don't doubt that you'll get me out in a crisis and know exactly what to do.

But I do know I'll need help, and I'll probably dither and do the wrong thing - because the means by which I normally make myself capable of dealing with a physical task are not available. That's the way it is, and I accept that - but when 'professionals' are labelling my fellow ditherers 'morons' and a bunch of other derogatory terms, simply because they've been scared in a situation for which the 'system' educates them inadequately, I feel pretty annoyed.

And to suggest that inattention to the safety briefing is the problem, doesn't stand up to much rational analysis, it seems to me. :*

[mercurydancer]

Is Mr Hadow just another product of the "complain" culture... just because things didnt happen as he expected that he should complain? sometimes unpleasant things happen but that doesnt mean that they are necessarily wrong. He's just Naomi Campbell in a duvet jacket.

I can certainly recall the safety briefings about the masks and that the bags dont inflate. I would certainly be frightened but also would comprehend a controlled descent for what it is. (Ive been through something similar courtesy of the RAF) Four minutes is a long time to be in fear but also a long time to collect your thoughts.The comment from the flight crew as to completing successfully an emergency rapid descent would be reassuring. All in all I would appreciate that a controlled rapid deescent is a part of flight transport and it sounds like the crew handled the situation well.

[kingdee]

Well done to crew and Ryanair .:ok:

[rubik101]

If you are sitting in your seat and you pull the Oxygen mask down sufficiently to enable you to put it over your mouth and nose, then the Oxygen has been activated.
The line from the mask has a short lanyard connected to it which pulls a small pin from the Oxygen Generator. This removal initiates the production of Oxygen. There is no need to actually 'tug' on the mask.
The 'tug' is simply to ensure that the small pin is removed from the actuator.
When I last looked, Oxygen was colourless and odourless so our intrepid explorer, amongst others, has no way of knowing if the system is working.
I am inclined to agree with those posts that suggest that a nice green twizzling blobby thing in the line indicating flow of some sort might well be appreciated.
Also, a small notice stuck to the resevoir bag, telling the passenger what is occuring and not to expect a message from the crew until the decent is completed might not go amiss.
Cost about 4p.

[NSEU]

Someone earlier said Boeing were behind the times (or something similar ) - all 3 Boeing aircraft I fly on have an automatic decompression announcement that plays when the masks come down so it must be an optional extra that the individual airline can choose to have fitted.

Perhaps Ryanair flies the only Boeing without this feature? :rolleyes: What airline would not want this feature (for fear of being sued). I've certainly never heard of a modern jet airliner which doesn't have one. Having said that, Boeing aircraft have had these kind of systems for at least 35 years (not exactly modern).

For info:
Older aircraft have old-fashioned cassette tapes playing the announcement. Modern technology has put the announcement on a computer chip (similar to the music on an iPod).

Also, even older systems are designed to increase the volume level automatically (and quite dramatically so) during decompression events. PA volume levels are also increased for normal events (e.g. for engines running and higher airspeeds)

Perhaps the system was fitted to this Ryanair jet and either it didn't work or the passengers were in such a panic, they don't remember the announcement going off (3 times... as is the standard). Very unlikely, but perhaps the same problem which caused the pressurisation system to fail also caused the auto announcement system to fail :}

BTW, I have seen the pressurisation outflow valves fluctuate on one Boeing model when people have used walkie talkies (on the ground). Perhaps the pax in seat 26A was not only NOT listening to the safety brief, he/she also was talking on her, perhaps faulty, mobile phone. It would be kinda ironic if passengers calling on their mobiles to tell their loved ones that they are going to die might possibly be contributing to their own deaths. :ouch:

[Wangja]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00796/matt270808_796361a.gif

[ctabyrne]

Finbarr seems a tad biased to say that "Ryanair have a clear Irish voice" when I have been on many flights where the cabin announcements were almost unintelligible, and would almost certainly be incomprehensible to speakers whose first language was not English. Many of them (cabin crew) today appear to be from Eastern Europe.

There was a pilot not so long ago who sounded more like Speedy Gonzalez than Gay Byrne.

[grumpysnail]

People that are not adequately drilled in how to react in an emergency will panic, forget what they have been told, act inappropriately and then try to rationalise their behaviour afterward. Blaming the airline for perceived failures is part of this and is made easier by media nasties looking for a headline.

For an infrequent passenger the safety briefing is likely to be forgotten when they panic, regardless of how much attention they pay to it. Please note that I'm not suggesting it should be ignored but unless an airline is prepared to drill passengers in safety procedure (not going to happen) you'll always get the panic and the blame storm and the bad press that follows.

[marchino61]

Moderators - could we please start another thread entitled "Let's bash Pen Hadow"? - then the rest of us could get on with discussing the supposed topic of this thread, instead of focusing on one individual.

@wangja - thanks for posting the cartoon - very apt! :-)

[irishffm]

Hello Ladies(?) and Gents

First of all im not a pilot i read the various posts (daily) only out of interest. I have the utmost respect in the way you chaps do your job. Yes, im irish (*duck* from the Paddy jokes) and have never flown with Ryanair (i´ll let you decide if thats actually positive or negative :) . What does frustrate me is the way the media report this type of incident. There seems to be nearly always a rather large degree of sensationalism in the flavour of various reports.

Plunged, fell, dropped, near death or words to that effect are extremely missleading for normal mortals like me and tend to influence a flying experience in a negative way. Surely the journalists who "troll" this forum for whatever reason, should know by now that its sop to get down asap (controlled) and reframe from such use of the language? Bloody very misleading.

Just my 2 euros worth (live in frankfurt and i´m obliged to pay in euros otherwise i´d have used pennys).

Anyway keep the excellent work up ladies(?) and gents.
All the Best

irishffm

almost forgot.... hats off to the Ryanair crew.

ps flying yet again to Dublin on Sunday morning from FRA ;)

[el #]

Welcome irishffm.
You must be very rich there in Frankfurt, in fact you will find thar the Euro to which they are obliging you, is divided in 100 cents of value comparable to pennys and commonly used by Europeans to indicate small values :)

[keel beam]

Perhaps all airlines should review how they present the safety briefing. Out should go "You are very nice passengers that pay our wages and would you please, pretty please, listen to our safety briefing...." and bring in " You must listen to this briefing, put your newspapers down, NOW, take F:mad: notice, NOW, this will help you in the event of an emergency... I SAID F:mad: Listen! "
or something similar.

It pisses me off, as a regular passenger, that so many people do not take any notice because of "been there, done that" syndrome. It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!

[212man]

I guess that, for various reasons, the lay public (including the press) do not realise that the aircraft has to descend rapidly following loss of pressurisation, and that, when such events occur, the emergency descent is considered a further abnormality. I recall being irritated a few weeks ago, when listening to the radio report of the Quantas incident, by the comment "the plane plumetted rapidly" or similar, as if that was a surprise!

Perhaps another 12 seconds in the briefing, to suggest that the aircraft will carry out an emergency descent following the deployment of the masks, might be a useful addition, though (as has been pointed out already) most pax take stuff all notice of the briefing anyway. If I had my way, I'd brief at the stand and kick off all those who failed to pay attention!!

[marchino61]

I am getting a little tired of this "most pax take no notice of the briefing" stuff.

As has already been pointed out, the reason for this is that we have heard it so many times before we could probably do the demonstration ourselves. In my own case, I have seen it done 19 times in the last month alone. Apologies for my low boredom threshold!

That does not mean I do not take notice of where the emergency exits are - and, in the extremely rare occurrence of getting a seat in the exit row - how to open the door. I even find out where the life jackets are, despite the probability of surviving to use one being very very close to zero.

And if the briefing had mentioned the emergency descent, I would have known about it.....as it was I probably spent the first 15 of my 20 years regular flying experience before this piece of information was imparted to me, via the press (yes, it does have its uses despite its sensationalism).

[thunderbird7]

"And to suggest that inattention to the safety briefing is the problem, doesn't stand up to much rational analysis, it seems to me."


That sounds like EXACTLY the problem to me. In these days of instant answers and technology, it must come as a surprise to some people, that they might actually have to think and do things for themselves for a change. Maybe if the cabin crew walked around with breathing systems on all the time, they wouldnt have to waste time saving themselves, before worrying about all the people safely sat down underneath serviceable oxygen masks. Perish the thought that anybody should pay attention to a safety briefing. They might not be able to sue anybody afterwards ( ie; the bloke in the next seat for not listening and telling them what to do, his dog - for distracting him from said task by being ill and him worrying about it- or the pilots - for flying the plane instead of blathering and interrupting the peace and quiet in the cabin).

Ooops! Was that a bit of a rant! :rolleyes:

[212man]

I am getting a little tired of this "most pax take no notice of the briefing" stuff

I sympathise entirely - maybe the airlines should introduce a currency requirement. At check in you could state when you last had the brief and what amendment state the brief was at, and then be exempt from paying attention.

It could probably go hand in hand with a similar drive in the cockpit:-

Capt: "this will be a Grice 3 C departure..."
F/O: "Yawn...yeah yeah, I heard that one yesterday, and last week."
Capt: "ah, ok I'll not bother briefing the take off then."

I'm sure the pax would be delighted to hear that.....:ugh:

[Noxegon]

It pisses me off, as a regular passenger, that so many people do not take any notice because of "been there, done that" syndrome. It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!

Yawn. As a very frequent SLF (usually twice a week, more often than not on Ryanair) I could probably recite the safety briefing from memory. I tend to keep a vague ear on it just in case something has changed from last time, but I'm not about to put down my newspaper.

Do you not remember something after you've heard it one hundred plus times?

[BEagle]

Well, I've been on about 450 flights over the last 5 years.

I always listen to the brief and I always read the card - because the door operation is different on the A320, B737, BAe 146/RJ85 and CRJ100/200 used by the airline I normally fly with. As well as the occasional turboprop.

It is commonsense, not to mention courteous to the cabin crew. Those who insist on reading or yakking to one another during the brief should 'STFU' and listen - or be advised that they are compromising their own safety and that of others.

Perhaps the Commander should make a PA telling passengers that they shall listen to the brief; failure to do so would constitute failure to follow a lawful order......

Has there been any indication of the cause of the rapid decompression suffered by the Ryanair aircraft yet? I would have thought that something so serious would have had a pretty obvious cause.

[Tight Slot]

Just having read The Sun's page 13 this morning. Oh dear Ms Haywood. The oxygen masks failed to inflate.... Well no shit Sherlock! I'd be bloody worried if they did.

Have you ever listened to a safety demo Ms Haywood? Nar, thought not.

[londonman]

Overthewing, what more do you want? Your own personal flight attendant and one also for each of your fellow passengers? The safety briefing is there to be listened to. If someone is so naive or arrogant to think that they don't need to then I'd prefer they flew on another plane as they will be the ones to panic - as per Hadow - when something unexpected happens. There is also the Safety Instruction leaflet for reading and not for fanning ones' face when it gets a tad hot.

Further gems from Hadowland were that 'it was totally unexpected'. Gosh...tell me Number One, is it time for the scheduled cabin depressurisation? No, Captain, that's scheduled for 10 minutes time'

Second gem...he put his sons' mask on first. Now what do they say in the briefing?

I think that the Ryanair team did an excellent job. I also found the Matt cartoon in todays' Telegraph in poor taste.

[westie]

Virgin Pilot - well dont an excellent link. This made me laugh amongst reading the predictable garbage from a lot of posters

[Discorde]

From 'How To Do Well In The Sim':

<<RAPID DEPRESSURISATION

When you call ‘MAYDAY’, if you can get some sort of ATC clearance before you plummet, so much the better. It would be pointless doing the drill perfectly and then slamming into another aircraft beneath you on the way down. The TCAS telling you ‘CLIMB . . . CLIMB’ won’t be much use at this point. The question is: ‘how long do I spend trying to get an emergency descent clearance?’ And of course no-one can give you an answer – you must use your judgement as to when to start down if ATC can’t help. However, remember you’ve got 12 minutes of passenger and cabin crew oxygen available and considerably more for the pilots. If you stay aloft a short time while you get a clearance and then descent at current IAS (in case of damage) you’ll still have plenty of time to get down to breathable air before the oxygen runs out.

One of the difficulties in this scenario is communication with cabin crew – they can’t talk to you with their masks on, so it’s one way traffic only. Having done the QRH checklist you could do a combined PA for both the cabin crew and the pax, along the lines of: ‘ . . . we’ve lost cabin pressure, so everyone make sure you’ve got your oxygen masks on . . . cabin crew stand by for further instructions . . . ‘. At the end of the descent your PA could be ‘ . . . cabin manager, take off your mask and report to the flight deck . . .’ Or if for some reason you need to talk to the cabin manager during the descent, you could tell him on the PA to don a portable bottle and report to the flight deck. He can then listen to what you say over the speaker.

One final point - if during the cruise one pilot is leaving the flight deck it is a good idea to review the rapid depressurisation QRH procedure beforehand, because the remaining pilot will be unmonitored if he has to carry it out. Some pilots like to leave the QRH open at the relevant page as a back-up in this situation.>>

[chris_tivver]

Let be realistic, you are never going to get all pax to listen to the announcements and they certainly won't read the card - many of them probably couldn't. However that doesn't mean that we shouldn't improve them.

two things I have learnt from this episode that I never knew before despite listening to many many briefings and travelling on probably 20 airlines and RAF and USN aircraft

1) you can pass out after only 12s. Sure I have heard and understood the message that parents should put on masks before helping children but knowing that timescale made it a lot clearer to me. Indeed when I went home I emphasised the message to wifey. I think that should be added to briefing

2) The fact that it is not obvious that oxygen is coming through. Someone earlier suggests a small mechanical device to indicate that it is working. This could alleviate much panic (highly desirable)

To be fair to pen hadow he did point out that on some of the issues he wasn't sure that there wasn't something of which he was not aware but it was a woeful performance by the Today programme for not checking their facts

Encouraging that despite all these problems there was not any dangerous display of panic (AFAIK), just fear.

[marchino61]

er....bit confused by mention of checklists...aren't they a list of things you have to check? i.e. something to be actioned rather than passively absorbed? Or does this word have a different meaning in aviation?

[Finbarr]

Marchin61 -

Every aircraft has checklists, in order to ensure everything that needs to be done is done, in the correct sequence. There are 'normal' checklists, such as before take-off, before landing, etc.

There are also 'non-normal' checklists, self explanatory. Of these non-normal checklists, some have so-called 'memory' or 'recall' items which have to be learned and performed from memory, later backed up by reading the checklist, to ensure everything has been done correctly. Needless to say, the 'Emergency Descent' falls into this latter category and it appears that this crew perfomed in text-book fashion.

[Nicholas49]

The mention of checklists is to bring home the point that although some things have to be repeated, repeated and repeated again, they are still important. The "I've heard this before" argument does not wash.

[Captain Airclues]

The reason that the mask does not inflate is explained on this thread;

http://www.pprune.org/questions/340580-why-dont-oxygen-mask-bags-inflate.html

[wazzer1976]

New Facebook group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=22786954854&ref=nf

[fireflybob]

This "story" is even running in the Daily Telegraph today!

Ryanair boss in row with explorer Pen Hadow over emergency landing (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/2625521/Ryanair-boss-in-row-with-explorer-Pen-Hadow-over-emergency-landing.html)

[LIMpass]

Let's ask, again, what caused the aircraft to depressurise? What agency/ies will be responsible for the investigation? When will the report be produced? Where will the report be published? I ask these questions because I have yet to discover from any agency whether a report has been published on the Ryanair landing incident at Limoges on 21 March, in which I was a passenger.

On the question of briefings for passengers might I add this - most airlines produce inflight magazines which are full of inconsequential rubbish. Why not oblige them to put in further safety information for passengers (procedures in the event of... and details on oxygen airflow indicators, non-inflation of bags, low flow rate, duration of flow etc) which the cabin crew can refer to at the end of the pre-flight safety briefing.

[fireflybob]

I ask these questions because I have yet to discover from any agency whether a report has been published on the Ryanair landing incident at Limoges on 21 March, in which I was a passenger.


Full accident reports can take months even years before they are published - it's down to the appropriate authorities and the investigators - nothing to do with the airline.

[212man]

What I was alluding to was not the use of checklists (a topic that could occupy a Masters Dissertation!) but the fact that the flight crew carry out briefs, and that much of the content will also be familiar to them. Doesn't mean they are not carried out, albeit that on a multi sector day, once the a full brief has been given it may be acceptable to refer to "standard brief" for that particular phase, within the same crew.

Not only is a brief given, but questions are also asked (depending on company SOP) e.g. Capt to F/O "what will be your actions in the event of an engine failure prior to V1."

Anyway, sorry - as professional pilot - to try and tell pax how they should respond to safety briefs. I'll continue to listen to them and make damm sure I know what my actions will be, when I'm travelling as pax (which is pretty frequently)

[The Real Slim Shady]

On the question of briefings for passengers might I add this - most airlines produce inflight magazines which are full of inconsequential rubbish. Why not oblige them to put in further safety information for passengers (procedures in the event of... and details on oxygen airflow indicators, non-inflation of bags, low flow rate, duration of flow etc) which the cabin crew can refer to at the end of the pre-flight safety briefing.

Firstly if the passengers paid the slightest attention to the briefing they would have known that the mask has to be pulled towards you to start the flow of oxygen. Secondly, they would have known that they should secure there own mask before helping anyone around them. Thirdly, if they don't listen to the briefing what makes you think they will read the magazine? and finally, LIMPass now that you have experience of an incident perhaps you will encourage your fellow travellers to pay attention when the CC are doing the safety demo.

In a week where 153 died in Madrid in an air crash, the application of correct procedures and the recovery without incident have been overshadowed by the disproportionate outpourings of expert self publicists.

[LIMpass]

Slimshady: "now that you have experience of an incident perhaps you will encourage your fellow travellers to pay attention when the CC are doing the safety demo."

So, you think further information in the inflight magazine would be a waste of time? I beg to disagree. If passengers are able to familiarise themselves with more details, such as the workings of the emergency oxygen supply, then there would be less anxiety and greater appreciation of the work being done by flight crew.

My experience, emergency evac Limoges, 21March2008 - slides deployed. Shoes taken off? None. Cabin crew guiding pax at head of forward slides? None. Hard luggage being brought down slides? Yes, lots. Overwing exits opened? Neither. RH slides stable in gusting wind? No. I could go on.

It may take X? time to produce a report into an incident, that's a given. However, it should be within the competence of the authorities to say what agency is conducting the investigation. I have yet to encounter that competence, either in France where the incident took place or in Ireland where Ryanair is registered.

[sky9]

Great cartoon by Matt in the Telegraph today
Matt cartoons witty political cartoons and satirical sketches - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/)

I wonder if Mr O'Leary will learn from this experience the true value of his staff. He was after all carefully reading from a brief as he clearly wasn't speaking from his own knowledge of the procedures.

[keel beam]

Keel Beam It is not only their safety that they are compromising but potentially mine as well!
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4353362) http://static.pprune.org/images/misc/progress.gif


Noxegon - are you really that bored with life! Don't give a sh1t for your fellow passenger? No excitement? How about reading "100 things to do before you die"

[Pinkman]

Unfortunately, Dave Freeman, the co-author of "100 things to do before you die" died last week aged 47, after a fall. He'd completed 50 of them.

Author of 100 Things To Do Before You Die has died before completing his list - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/2627669/Author-of-100-Things-To-Do-Before-You-Die-has-died-before-completing-his-list.html)

[FrequentSLF]

I sympathise entirely - maybe the airlines should introduce a currency requirement. At check in you could state when you last had the brief and what amendment state the brief was at, and then be exempt from paying attention.

It could probably go hand in hand with a similar drive in the cockpit:-

Capt: "this will be a Grice 3 C departure..."
F/O: "Yawn...yeah yeah, I heard that one yesterday, and last week."
Capt: "ah, ok I'll not bother briefing the take off then."

I'm sure the pax would be delighted to hear that.....:ugh:

There are also Memory Items ...:E

As SLF happened to me several time when alone on the business class that the cabin crew politely ask if I am aware of the safety briefing in order to skip it.

AN

[ChrisLKKB]

Just in case anyone doesn't understand the words, descent, steep descent or plummet, the Telegraph has illustrated it nicely here :rolleyes: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00796/ryanair-emergency-l_796317a.jpg)

Has the Sun laid off a load of (scum-sucking) journos who have gone on to get work with the broadsheets?

The reporting of this incident is just blatant sensationalism by Hadow and BBC journos who make a living from telling stories. If they are going to claim the stories to be factual they should check those facts before broadcasting them.

[Kyunghee]

I'm surprised Pen Hadow needed oxygen anyway. It says on his website, under the Profile button: Pen was catapulted to international fame when he became the first person to complete one of the last great polar challenges - solo, without re-supply, from Canada to the North Geographic Pole. This feat is thought by some to be harder than climbing Everest solo, without oxygen....

At least he should have been okay anywhere up to 29,029 feet. :D

[Finn47]

Another passenger story here:

Family Caught Up In Plane Plunge Drama (from Thisisdorset) (http://www.thisisdorset.net/display.var.2433742.0.family_caught_up_in_plane_plunge_drama .php)

[shortfinals]

In response to this description of a sudden decompression Air scares - Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/2008/08/air-scares.html) somebody suggested that there should be a pressurisation-triggered announcement that informs the passengers what's going on.

What would such an announcement say? Could it have the desired effect? What is the desired effect - apart from reducing the motivation for someone like Pen Haddow to become an instant expert on sudden decompressions?

[overthewing]

Overthewing, what more do you want? Your own personal flight attendant and one also for each of your fellow passengers? The safety briefing is there to be listened to.

Goodness, no. More FAs would simply compound the problem. I think I could probably train FAs myself, having listened to several thousand safety briefings where the wording was identical, and the only possible difference is the position of the exits. I note that fact automatically, even if it appears that I'm on the same plane that I travelled outwards on, earlier in the day - it might be the same type, with slightly different exit configurations, for all I know. (I occasionally note that the FA doing the briefing is less confident of the position of the exits than I am myself, presumably because he/she has been on several types recently and has lost immediate recollection of the current configuration.)

I'm not aware that the oxygen mask advice is any different on any type or airline. Am I wrong in that?

What I WOULD like is a chance to actually don an oxygen mask and get a feel for how hard I have to tug, what the oxygen flow feels like, etc.

For example: you're supposed to fit your own mask before attending to children, yes? This involves fitting the straps and tightening them. But in the recent Qantas depressurisation, one passenger told how the elastic straps on his mask had perished, so that the mask kept falling off as he tried to attend to his child. In a panic situation, this is not something I'd like to have to think how to deal with - what do you do - take a deep breath and hold it while attending to the child? Tie a quick knot in the perished elastic? Given time to think about it, I'm sure I could work out how to handle that, but most passengers don't have that luxury.

Perhaps what some enterprising airline could do is to choose a random passenger on each trip, and have them don the lifevest, have his oxygen mask drop, and have him clamber to his nearest exit. Now, if passengers knew that they might be put on the spot like that, I bet everyone would pay attention to the briefing.

I'm not entirely sure I'm joking about that. It would work, and it would certainly brighten the cabin crews' lives.

[labrador pup]

What happens to us pooches in the hold if there is a depressurisation? Does someone come down and give us a mask or do we just snuff it? :(

[Airbourne-Adamski]

In response to this description of a sudden decompression Air scares - Learmount somebody suggested that there should be a pressurisation-triggered announcement that informs the passengers what's going on.

What would such an announcement say? Could it have the desired effect? What is the desired effect - apart from reducing the motivation for someone like Pen Haddow to become an instant expert on sudden decompressions?

We have a pre-recorded announcement on the A319, if a decompression occurs there is a automatic PA

[Paddington]

We have an automatic pre-recorded announcement on our 747-400s too. Why can't it become an ICAO standard?

[Hombre]

As a SLF, and regular flyer AGP<>EDI with GSM, I have never experienced such an emergency incident, albeit once we had to fly "low and slow" to Bournemouth to sort out a door seal problem noticed shortly after take-off from EDI.

With regard to this incident and indeed the O2 "candles" in question, am I right in thinking there is only around 26 seconds of oxygen available from the inherent chemical reaction - hence another reason for the rapid but controlled descent!!??

I got this gem of info from "Aircraft Investigation" so it must be true - right??

[Paddington]

labrador pup - The hold air comes from the cabin so a depressurised cabin would mean a depressurised hold. So I would expect any animals to lose consciousness. Whether or not they survive would depend on how quickly the pilots can descend to an altitude at which there's sufficient breathable air for that animal.

[Simonta]

Hi

I waited before I'd fitted my tin hat to post. I'm expecting some incoming....I also apologise in advance for repeating some points previously made. On second thoughts, no, I won't apologise.

A small piece of background; I am a PPL(H) and have worked on aircraft, fast jet, helis and multi-jets, for about half of my working life so I understand all that has gone before. I am now in computer software (bear with me, it is germaine to the discussion).

First point. SLF pays the pros wages. End of. The customer is king. As frequent SLF, I do object to the way some in the industry seem to view me.

Second point. When I started in software, I used to do the same thing. If my users couldn't use my software/broke it/didn't remember my instructions to them it was their fault. Since then, the industry, and me along with it, has matured. Now, I actively look for areas where my users struggle and attempt to address this by revisiting the design, better understanding which specific areas cause problems, improving the documentation, trying to preempt what users might do etc. This paradigm shift has caused me to see the problem as mine.

My tuppence is that perhaps the aviation industry might benefit from similar thinking in discussions such as this? It happens in the cockpit. Why not for your most precious cargo?

A case to illustrate the point is the bizarre situation where each airframe may have a different method of opening the overwing exits and you rely on untrained SLF, whose psyche you nothing of, as a fundemental part of the EV? Is it beyond the wit of man to come up with a new approach? (incidentally, I brief myself that if that geezer by the door doesn't get it open, I bl**dy well will :))

I do happen to listen to briefings with a half cocked ear in case something has changed because, like many here, I could do the demos myself - and probably understand far more what's behind the demo than your average cabin crew. I also always count the seat backs between me and the exits. So please, a plea to the pros, "seek first to understand and only then to be understood".

Had I been on this cab, I would not be panicking (just yet :)) as I would know that the oxy gens where working and why we were "plummeting" towards the ground. The only niggle in the back of my head would be about structural integrity but bugger all I can do about that so back to the G&Ts.

How about a little respect back?

Finally, hats off to the pros in whose hands I frequently place my trust and to all crews who have had to deal with any incident such as this. :D

Simon

[Paddington]

Hombre - I thought it would be more like 12 minutes. Bear in mind that long-haul flights over high terrain need sufficient time to clear high ground in order to descend to a breathable level. Any aircraft flying over such terrain should have their oxygen systems certified accordingly.

[wiggy]

It' certainly a lot more than 26 seconds but its difficult to give an exact number...The actual time is going to depend on the aircraft type, altitude, and in the case of a system using tanked oxygen wether the tanks are fully topped up and how many passengers are on board...it's certainly a case of several minutes rather than seconds.

As Paddington has mentioned Long Haul Aircraft operating over high Terrain have to be equipped with systems that can cope with extended flight with the passengers on oxygen - in which case you may be talking about having an hours supply or more at lower altitudes

[amf1966]

Regarding (automated) PA announcements on decompression events...

I wonder how effective this would be anyway in reduced air pressure. Anyone know facts/figures on effectiveness of sound transmission in reduced air pressure?

I honestly think, in such situations, you're never going to please everyone. Best thing seems to be, for ALL crew to do as trained, mitigate the emergency and get the aircraft down to breathable altitude. When at reduced altitude and reduced workload, give full explanation including reasons why there was no PA announcement whilst performing emerg decent etc.

I'm sure you'd get everyone's attention during such an announcement, and the right words and explanation would go a long way to cutting out passengers fear, indignation etc, whether it's warranted or not.

Most will accept the explanation and see the sense of it - those that don't couldn't get p1ssedin a brewery, and would find fault if they won the lottery, so don't waste energy on them you'll never get it right for those folks.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Isn't the Daily Telly brilliant:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00796/ryanair-emergency-l_796317a.jpg

Even if I knew nought about flying, the concepts here are so well presented that I think my goldfish Spot would understand this piccy quite well.

Maybe they should do a series of similarly informative graphics. Suggested titles include:
1. Jonny combs his hair.
2. Timmy goes for a poo.
3. Jenny eats her cornflakes and then has some toast.

It's heartening to know that after 3 years going to graphics college, a graduate can pick up a worth while job in the Daily Telegraph putting into pictures what words could never describe.

Hat's off to the Telly and all those other unsung journalists for bringing us the stories and pictures that really matter.

[slip and turn]

I think we've pandered enough to the media distraction of MO'L v. Hadow now. Too many professionals here are fueling it. I think this thread should be quartered immediately.

All the posts banging on about how if passengers listened to the initial Ryanair briefing they'd be informed enough to know how their masks work, are all wrong. They can go. Excise them please, moderators.

The Ryanair briefing tells people to pull down the mask fully. Courtesy only of itsresidualmate in this thread, those of us that have listened to the Ryanair briefing several hundred times in order to extract the last drop of survivability out of it, finally know what 'fully' means.

As for whether the rebreather bag is expected to inflate or not we have only learned about that today from SNS3Guppy in the other thread about why the bag doesn't necessarily inflate. Until I read this thread I'd never even considered the problem of any rebreather bag possibly being tight flat after my first few breaths.

I am not aware of anything in a Ryanair safety briefing about what to expect from any bag attached to any mask, merely a phrase counselling me to breathe normally.

So the reactions from the passengers, including Mr Hadow, who is no doubt used to trying to make sense out of his predicament, are all completely as someone like me would expect. Take them as complaints if you will. That says more about you than them. I take them as observations offered to those wishing to listen. I recommend listening.

On the other hand, the reactions of many of the RYR fleet pilots on this thread are rather surprising, I feel. One might have hoped RYR pilots are open-minded individuals first, and Ryanair employees second. Actually the ire directed at Mr Hadow is plain silly, as are the silly comments left on his website. Without his comments about the rebreather bag, no-one, including me, would have realised there is a potential communication problem about how to use a rebreathing mask if you've never used one before.

The "congratulations to the crew on a job well done" posts can also be excised I think. The "(anonymous) condolences to all those affected" are often rather diluting of real sentiment and unnecessary on the fatal accident threads, and get pruned. So the applause bit from people who really do not know anything about the pilots in this case other than the fact they were the pilots is about as perplexing as clapping on landing.

Anyway, unless you now better as an insider, congrats to the crew is all a bit premature don't you think? How do we know they didn't slip up and misconfigure or misinterpret something prior to the masks dropping? We don't yet, do we?

Anyway, the biggest disappointment in the whole thread is that the main question remains almost completely unacknowledged.

Never mind the halycyon days when there were 17 masks for 90 passengers and flying was risky business. Ryanair 737-800s cruise around eleven kilometres high. No-one can remain conscious up there for more than a faction of a minute without a full life support system.

It's not just a bus with a bit of airconditioning. The life support system was evidently thought to have failed or thought to have been compromised. Why please? How on earth did it happen?

I have said it before, but it needs re-emphasising, I think: There have been too many pressurisation incidents. I really don't think we should be seeing the backstop of emergency descent used quite so often.

I think it's interesting we've now seen it on a fleet as standard and one would hope constant as the RYR fleet upon which, The Real Slim Shady has quite rightly been laudibly telling us recently, they have an excellent automatic 24/7 self diagnostics 'phone home' telemetry(?) system which communicates constantly with a central station called 'Maintrol'(?) reporting the health of various aircraft systems irrespective of any crew reports.

Are we therefore considering a sudden and manufacturer's or maintainer's completely unpredicted failure here, or the knock-on from a known fault that was deferred according to rules which allowed it?

[corsair]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00796/matt270808_796361a.gif

Not that is funny and in part is the explanation as to why there has been such a fuss over this trivial incident. The Ryanair factor. We all hate Ryanair. Even I think I do despite the fact that I've yet to have a negative incident with them and many of my friends are Ryanair pilots. Bit illogical that.

But as slip and turn (I think) is saying. Why haven't we discussed the reason for the depressurisation in the first place?

[Paddington]

Because it takes months for a full investigation.

[tob2]

FYI - a chemical oxygen generator will provide15 minutes of Oxygen

[rothin]

According to this report in the French press
www.lepopulaire.fr - Grand Limoges - atterrissage d urgence a bellegarde video (http://www.lepopulaire.fr/editions_locales/limoges/atterrissage_d_urgence_a_bellegarde_video_@CARGNjFdJSsEFxoBB BU=.html)
the Torygraph map is wrong.
The aircraft depressurised 120 kms SW of Limoges over Bergerac. The crew had the option of landing either at Bordeaux or Limoges. The crew were more familiar with the layout at Limoges so turned back.

A Spanish passenger is reported as coping with the experience with less alarm than the intrepid explorer. He says that the oxygen masks dropped, the plane quickly descended, there was no panic and the plane landed without problem.

It's interesting that a French regional newspaper can apparently report this incident with more authority than the combined might of BBC and the UK national press.

[wiggy]

OK, it was interesting to hear Mr Hadow's reaction - it gives us some insight into the mindset of the travelling public. The problem I and I think many of us have is that that the BBC seem to be giving credence to his claims about oxygen not working, and percentages of injuries and the like...perhaps all airlines might consider putting a copy of David Learmount's recent blog into their seatback pockets...for once he sums things up nicely..he doesn't quite say flying has it's hazards and **** can happen, but he at least says "get used to the reality".

Learmount (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/learmount/)


Why haven't we discussed the reason for the depressurisation? - Because we don't know.

BTW not all of those onside with Ryanair here are "RYR Fleet Pilots". I'm certainly not one and I'm certainly not one to rush to defend MOL, but I can recognise poor/biased/sensationalist reporting when I hear it...

[tob2]

I think it's interesting we've now seen it on a fleet as standard and one would hope constant as the RYR fleet upon which, The Real Slim Shady has quite rightly been laudibly telling us recently, they have an excellent automatic 24/7 self diagnostics 'phone home' telemetry(?) system which communicates constantly with a central station called 'Maintrol'(?) reporting the health of various aircraft systems irrespective of any crew reports.

RYR uses a wireless QAR which relies on mobile phone technology, it only uploads information at certain times of the day to save on call cost, only when on the ground, and not directly to maintrol.

It never ceases to amaze me how a group of "professional pilots" can talk such drivel about subjects that they are either ill informed or plain not informed! can't you wait for official reports before scaremongering about what happened.

[13thDuke]

Re the Telegraph graphic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00796/ryanair-emergency-l_796317a.jpg

No one has yet congratulated the pilots on managing to miss crashing into both Mt Everest and Mt Blanc on the way down. Well done chaps.

As to why the plane depressurised, you can see from the second picture that they had the gear down at 37,000ft - so the air probably came out of the holes in the floor.

[slip and turn]

What does it matter whether Hadow thought his oxygen wasn't working or whether it was actually working as designed? The point is he described confusion over how you are supposed to breathe the damn stuff when the only physical signs he observed of whether something was happening were not reassuring ones! On that score he was not wrong - he was there and confused - he said so! I believe him!

Anyway, since everyone is very much alive and able to explain their actions, Hadow included, I very much now want to know what the airline has to say about the cause please. And if the media drag it out of them sooner than they would otherwise wish to, then I don't mind, because I am looking for good old-fashioned reassurance.

I still have no idea what the hell happened when the Ryanair went off the runway at Limoges. I bet there are people who are hoping I never do.

Has the local French rag got any ground-breaking news on that one? Sometimes it takes more than sitting back and relaxing to get the most out of an airline.

[Paddington]

To any passengers on here - I'm still interested in how much information you want on the many (non-normal) events which are possible on any particular flight.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Slip and Turn

The aircraft would not have been operated with any deferred faults as the MEL does not permit it. As tob2 points out the aircraft only phones home on landing; it doesn't communicate constantly with Operations.

[slip and turn]

Thanks Real Slim, I was attempting to regurgitate some of the reassurance I had gleaned form your posts, and obviously I spat out far more than I ingested :O Nice system to have though, as I am sure you were saying. I remain reassured by it - hope that is not misplaced :ok:

So with no allowed deferred items which could possibly affect the life support system, and if the aircraft had phoned home and quoted happy when it was last on the ground, can we assume that there was a depressurisation event that could not be predicted by the manufacturer or the maintainer, and which has baffled all those who are now looking at it?

[LIMpass]

@slipandturn: Hear, hear.

I have flown on several occasions since the March 'landing' in Limoges. I am growing increasingly nervous with each flight and landing, and every time I wonder what happened in Limoges in March. Every time I wonder if the cabin crew I'm flying with are less stressed than the crew on that day. And, more importantly, if they are better briefed than the crew on that day - because of how that 'landing' was handled.

Ryanair - and most other airlines, I presume - will kick queries to touch with the line that there is an 'ongoing investigation'. That's fine, but who is overseeing these investigations; who is maintaining objective reporting standards; are investigators obliged to make recommendations on foot of findings; who determines that these investigations take place in a timely manner; and who publishes and disseminates these reports for public consumption?

[Centaurus]

At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations

Yes - they may have received simulator training and had all the boxes ticked BUT we all know some pilots who in reality would never cope if forced to conduct an emergency descent with one pilot incapacitated. Usually these characters are known slackers but have been in the game for a few years and still lack the drive for excellence. As loss of consciousness by one of the two cockpit crew during the immediate aftermath of a rapid depressurisation is a significant possibility, perhaps simulator training should include training for that event - ie single pilot operation emergency descent. That would sort out the competent from the incompetent in such a serious situation.

[fireflybob]

Yes - they may have received simulator training and had all the boxes ticked BUT we all know some pilots who in reality would never cope if forced to conduct an emergency descent with one pilot incapacitated. Usually these characters are known slackers but have been in the game for a few years and still lack the drive for excellence. As loss of consciousness by one of the two cockpit crew during the immediate aftermath of a rapid depressurisation is a significant possibility, perhaps simulator training should include training for that event - ie single pilot operation emergency descent. That would sort out the competent from the incompetent in such a serious situation.

Sorry Centaurus but I have to disagree with your comments here! In the event of a sudden depressurisation then shear self survival says go down - I don't think you are going to hang around for too long and if said pilots are not on oxygen as soon as possible then there is something seriously wrong with the safety training!

I think some posters here need to get real - anything mechanical can fail (even the hard disk on your computer!) - almost every airline thats been around for a while has had an a/c or two which has had to do an emergency descent due pressurisation problems. If correctly handled then it's a non-event from the perspective of professional flight crew.

[smudgesmum]

As fairly infrequent and anxious SLF I am feeling very reassured that should there be an emergency then I can trust the crew to deal with it.

I cannot imagine how frightened the PAX were but I find Pen Haddow's comments infuriating (thought he was an 'explorer' and not an experienced pilot!) and how dare he be so unchivalrous as to say the lady in the row in front was whimpering (bet he was macho man!)

I say 'respect' to the crew of the flight and I am finding that the more information I have then the less worried I become. I will now know what to do and how to do it although I will still be anxious if I ever find myself in that position

Well done Ryanair

[captplaystation]

Centaurus
Yeah, and lets make them do it with one arm tied behind their back, oh and blindfolded, and why not with a total electrical failure at night to boot.
Don't you just love those mucho-macho training scenarios. Oh, better throw in a mid-air on the way down, coz sure as hell no one is looking out.
Since most decompressions are usually a bit less than explosive, sure there is a possibility of incapacitation, but lets not start demanding that we operate the aircraft single crew in all circumstances for a one in a million chance
Otherwise next off the airlines will be demanding that it is certified for single crew ops, only half-joking there.

[Big Burd]

Slip and turn - do you read the posts or just have difficulty understanding English?

A rapid depressurisation is not a planned part of any flight and it is therefore impossible to prepare the public for such a sitaution. Confused or not, Penn Haddow ( is that his real name) clearly understood the safety breifing sufficently to don his O2 mask. In doing so he was saved from the effects of Hypoxia.

According to some sources the time of useful consciuosness after a sudden depressurisation at FL38 might be as short as between 15 and 45 seconds. Within this period the flight crew have to perform immediate actions and don masks. The deployment of pax O2 is automatic and triggered by barometric control.

Pulling the mask releases the supply via the manifold. Therefore, if one mask works at any station they should all have the potential to work - i.e. there is a supply.

Had any of the masks NOT been working - some of the passengers would have fallen unconscious during the descent. No -one was reported to have been unconscious - otherwise how would they have known their masks weren't working?

With emergency O2, Passenger announcements are impossible - the forest of masks is usually the only indication of what has occured and any pax announcement might distract and actually serve to confuse and disorientate some passengers.

On the basis that Penn Haddow clearly understood that there was an emergency - what was he hoping to glean from any announcement?

" Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Speaking, we're sorry that you've spilled your coffee but we had to stand the aircraft on its nose because the cabin air has suddenly gone and we need to get back down to a breathable atmosphere.. if we don't level out you can assume that we have a much bigger problem ... but don't worry ... we'll be in touch to let you know... Oh, and remember , for those of you who weren't actually watching or listening to the safety brief... pull the mask towards you to release the oxygen supply, fix your mask before helping others.... and , is Penn a real name?"

No, I don't know what casued the depressurisation and actually,at this stage, I don't really care . What I do know is that this can happen on any flight at any time and if you don't prepare you won't be ready.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I have experience of two rapid decompressions, one in a military jet, the second in an airliner. The military jet was a non event - except for my $12 Casio which exploded.

In the airliner an outflow valve - the valve which controls the rate at which air leaves the pressure hull - suddenly, and inexplicably, ran to the full open position. The climb through 34000ft changed very quickly to a descent to 10000ft. Because of the aircraft performance - it has the aerodynamics of a house brick - and the pressurisation system doing it's best to compensate we managed to get down before the cabin went through 14000ft and the masks dropped.

The failure of the valve couldn't be anticipated nor was it down to shoddy maintenance; it simply was a failure of an electro-mechanical component.

Every time you drive your car you make the assumption that the brakes will work when you press the pedal or that the the steering will work when you want to turn...but there is always the chance that they won't.

[Exnomad]

As a reasonably frequent SLF and ex national service aircrew, I did not know until read in this forum, that the object of "pulling down the mask" as in the safety instructions was to pull a pin out with the lanyard..Perhaps this could be made clear in the instructions. As far as altitude goes, I regularly flew sorties at around 20,000 with only occasional gulps of 02, as I could not see the Nav chart easily with mask on.
I do not know what the cabin altitude reduced to, but if did not get all the way down to cruise altitude it may be that passengers did not notice oxygen as there was still enough cabin air.

[Golden Ticket]

Do all 737 have an automatic PA tape that plays in a decompression as well? Ours do, the only proviso being it may not activate. The only PA I've been advised to do as cabin crew is to advise them that the smell of burning is normal and is the o2 generators working.

[fireflybob]

I did not know until read in this forum, that the object of "pulling down the mask" as in the safety instructions was to pull a pin out with the lanyard.

Exnomad, I take your point but the object is to release the supply of oxygen!

I don't know the intracacies of my computer but it usually works quite well.

[Dream Buster]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The one mystery of decompressions is why don't the pilots get an auto drop down O2 mask (just like the passengers) but have to 'work out' that they might need one (from a noisey alarm and a big red light) and then put them on manually?

Maybe there are such systems, but I only knew the manual type.

This seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Any thoughts on a bit of assistance - at time of high stress?

Win, win etc.

DB :confused: