Virgin launches to Newman and Karratha

[topend3]

sure this will cause some discussion

[/QUOTE]

WHAT A PEARLER!!! VIRGIN BLUE ANNOUNCES MAJOR WA EXPANSION
TWO BRAND NEW INTRA-WA ROUTES TO NEWMAN AND KARRATHA AND ADDITIONAL FLIGHTS TO BROOME
Tuesday 26 August 2008: Virgin Blue Airlines announced today it would expand its presence in Western Australia with the launch of two new ports and the doubling of flights to and from Broome.

From 21 October 2008, Virgin Blue will launch direct daily flights from Perth to two brand new Virgin Blue ports, Karratha and Newman¶ with its new executive style EMBRAER jet aircraft, bringing in new competition and Virgin Blue’s award winning service style to the mining market.

From 15 October 2008, Virgin Blue will also double flights between Perth and Broome providing a more convenient schedule, additional capacity and more competitive fares to one of Australia’s most unique “must see” tourist destinations.

Virgin Blue Chief Executive, Brett Godfrey, said, “This is a significant investment for the Virgin Blue Group in WA which demonstrates our confidence in the potential of the WA market. Karratha and Newman are both key mining destinations where we believe we can bring some great advantages in terms of schedule reliability and competitive fares. We will be working closely with the mining sector and those companies that provide support services to the mining industry in these regions and are eager to demonstrate our commitment to providing a viable travel option tailored to their needs.”

He continued, “At the same time, our soon-to-be launched services will also mean a new choice of airline for those wanting to travel between Perth and Karratha or Newman to visit family and friends or for a weekend in the city or the country. It’s not just about servicing the fly-in, fly-out mining industry needs, it’s about bringing tangible benefits to the general community through making travel a more affordable option.”

The expansion is Virgin Blue’s second and largest foray into intra-WA services following the successful introduction of Broome-Perth flights in September 2004.

From Wednesday 15 October 2008, Virgin Blue will increase its Perth-Broome flights with an a new early morning flight which will complement the existing evening service, giving travellers more choice and flexibility. Virgin Blue already operates a direct weekly flight between Adelaide and Broome.

The new services will also be operated by Virgin Blue's executive style EMBRAER E-190 jet aircraft and will add a further 1456 seats per week to the market. The E-190 is the larger of the two EMBRAER Jets with 104 seats, compared to the E-170 with 78 seats.

Virgin Blue Chief Executive, Brett Godfrey, said, "Broome’s popularity and unique cultural and environmental attractions make it a long term viable option for growth. The second daily flight is a big commitment for Virgin Blue but given the desirability of Broome as a destination, we are hopeful there will be ongoing demand for a twice daily flight and time will tell.

Virgin Blue will continue to work with local operators and tourism organisations on joint marketing campaigns and recently co-hosted travel media to the region with the newly refurbished Mercure Hotel as part of Virgin Blue's ongoing travel familiarisation program to lure more visitors to the destination. Journalists experienced some of Broome's finest delights from whale watching to historic pearl lugging to locally brewed ginger beer, mango products and the Cable Beach sunset.

As a result of Virgin Blue’s WA flight expansions, Perth Airport is poised to become an even bigger part of the airline’s network.

Brett Godfrey added, “Perth is a key focus for Virgin Blue’s future plans. We have a solid foundation to build on through Virgin Blue’s comprehensive schedule from Perth to the East Coast, serviced by the 737-800 aircraft. The new E-JET is ideally suited to smaller regional routes like Karratha and Newman and both aircraft will hub in Perth to provide convenient connections between the west and east coasts and WA regional destinations.”

Virgin Blue is Australia’s second largest airline and continues to introduce a range of business friendly travel initiatives to suit its growing corporate traveller base. The airline is considering further travel enhancements for WA, including the possible launch of “The Lounge” facility at Perth Airport and other intra-WA ports.

Meanwhile, Virgin Blue will offer special launch fares to celebrate the announcement of the new WA regional routes.

[/QUOTE]

[forgetabowdit]

Dont quote me because I really have nothing concrete except what I have heard around the traps at work, but I believe that at least some of these flights represent recent contract wins by DJ. May be wrong, but I hope they start getting their act together re: WA. They dropped the ball Big Time on setting up there when they should have 2+ years ago. I mean NETWORK has jets now for god sake!

Hope DJ does well outta this... But after living in Newman and having worked out of Karratha, I seem to remember that there is not a lot of travel done by non contract people. But I'm SURE they know this...:cool:

[Ken Borough]

...will the cherry-picking stop? Mr G is leading his airline far away from what it did best - operate as a Low Cost Carrier. Chasing the suits with DJ's limited infrastructure to support that market is not the way to go.

[KRUSTY 34]

Didn't DJ attempt a foray into the WA intrastate market some years ago, and the West Australian state government said no?

[Skystar320]

I was just about to book on the PER - Newman service, found that their is no cheap seats availabe......

Stunt perhaps?

Krusty, no - they couldnt get any backing by companies in Karratha

[43Inches]

I think you used to have to tender for certain rpt routes in WA and only one operator would be granted exclusive rights (skywest). I seem to remember they were going to scrap this and open up to competition, maybe a local could shed more light on the situation over there.

VB should do well as this seems to be the first time the e-jets will be on new routes which suit the aircraft, and are competing with older generation/less efficient jets.

[Skystar320]

Ports like that are open to anyone,

however regional routes like albany, esperance, exmouth, laverton, leinster etc are closed to competetion and currently only one regional airline flies

[mauswara]

I believe NJS did some serious analysis of the jungle jets,as 146 replacements,some years back.They didn't shape up to well in the heat of the W.A. summer.I'm sure VB has done their homework,haven't they??

[43Inches]

I'm sure five APU's does keep you cooler in summer, however does the embraer have significant performance issues in the heat, as opposed to a F100 or 146

[topend3]

skystar is on the money, jet routes are non-regulated. there are significant associated mining contractors and support personnel that fly to these destinations and this opens other options. also the people in the community that don't work in mining and can't get a seat at all, or can only get an expensive one because BHP has bought 80% of the plane. You only have to try and book a seat out of Karratha on qantas.com within the next 4 weeks to see this.

as always this is "use it or lose it" so if these communities want a viable second travelling option at an affordable price they will need to make sure they support it. this wasn't the case a few years back when DJ attempted to enter the KGI market...

[7378FE]

The 737-800 was too big for the PER-KGI market.

With the E-Jets heading west and a E-Jet PER base (3xE190 required) and significant gaps in the schedule thus far announced services, expect more destinations to be added. :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-points/289746-virgin-blue-karratha-e-jet-next-year.html

Looks like Pilotdude09 was right on the money:D

[Warped Wings]

With (I think) 28 Ejets on order, this is just the beginning.

I'm sure Qantas and Skywest knew this was coming too.

[apacau]

Additional capacity could be used on East coast runs (ADL extra services, maybe CBR) and maybe even something like DPS??

[cunninglinguist]

skystar is on the money, jet routes are non-regulated

True, however NWN airport is privately owned, so nobody can stop you from flying there, just landing there.
When AN decided they would continue to fly there after Qlink won the contract off them back in the 90s, the owners said " oh no you won't ".

I guess this has changed ?

[anawanahuanana]

It's a moot point, because unless the 190s carry a flying spanner on every sector, they will be AOG most of the time anyway................:mad:

[topend3]

True, however NWN airport is privately owned

sorry cunning, wrong again, it's actually owned by the Shire of East Pilbara, a Local Government body...BHP sold it to the Shire in 1996 so the part about AN may be true not sure....

not sure Brett Godfrey would know where Newman or Karratha are would he? Not the sort of place people go for a "weekend in the country" unless they know people...

Note QF have responded with a sale this evening matching these fares...

[rexxxxxy]

Port Headland will be next I'm told. Maybe, PER-DRW too.

My contact says they are even looking at flights to Coco's and Christmas I, not sure who has the contract to fly there?

PER Base for crew to start soon too, expressions being sought now.

E190s to fly ADL-PER-ADL and as mentioned 3 overnight in PER. E190 has no major operational restrictions into/out of the above ports. CBR is now totally E-Jet territory too these days bar one or two 737 flights a day.

Also look out for VB/PB heading to Bali and even POM soon! Ex BNE/DRW/PER to DPS from Nov I've heard.

Look out boys and girls...

The E-Jet will be a real winner in the west, as long the dispatch reliability slowly improves.

[KRUSTY 34]

As we turn the corner into '09 and the arrival of new equipment ramps up, DJ should be in a good position to exploit the opportunities that this "golden age of flying" has brought us.

Qantas will need to replace crews on the '330's as they move on to the BUFF's.

And when the 787's finally arrive, lots of pilots required for that one.

Hopefully the expansion plans of all the domestic carriers come to fruition. One man's meat however.... Difficult times ahead for the East coast regionals methinks?

[Skystar320]

Also look out for VB/PB heading to Bali and even POM soon!

I believe POM is Port Morseby? I'll stop you in the tracks right here, all available capacity seat wise has been used by relevant carries, so unless a carrier reduces seats it will be unlikely to see DJ in POM

[Skystar320]

My contact says they are even looking at flights to Coco's and Christmas I, not sure who has the contract to fly there

That contracted is currently held with NJS and the winner of the flights should be announced soon, however I am told DJ never applied for the rights

[rexxxxxy]

I'll stop you in the tracks right here, all available capacity seat wise has been used by relevant carries, so unless a carrier reduces seats it will be unlikely to see DJ in POM

These flights may be conducted 'in conjunction' with someone who already has the allocated capacity. :cool:

It's not a sure thing by any means, however it's under review.

[Skystar320]

Doubtful to say atlease,

QF, PX [PX is using SAW E190] then now APNG

Nope -

[XRlent100]

should be interesting to have 2 x E190's trying to push back along with the 200 other departures each morning.

How's terminal WA going??????????

[yowie]

Good point XR, not to mention that DJ have deferred the options on at least 10 of the EJ's, lets watch:confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

executive style EMBRAER jet
Uh oh, here come the boys and their toys. Bring 'em on! :}

Cunning, you're thinking of PBO.

[QF5]

Only four Ejets were deferred, 8 190's are in service already (ZPH started last week) and there're 4 170's, with another 6 190's due this year.

[joepatroni]

Have to agree on that one. On my trips from Perth the number of aircraft movements looks horrid. Good luck positioning aircraft onto bays between 5-6am!

[ad-astra]

Skystar 320 (Regarding VBA Port Moresby Ops)

"Doubtful to say atlease,

QF, PX [PX is using SAW E190] then now APNG

Nope -"

I wouldn't bet your house on that one!

[rexxxxxy]

Sorry Skystar.

You are bound to get one wrong every 10 years... :ugh:

[Skystar320]

it seems so........... :ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:

[cunninglinguist]

Thanks Bloggsy, u r correct, was thinking of PBO.

[A1BUGSMASHER]

Virgin can't do international flights using Virgin branding full stop due to Singapore airlines buying into Virgin Atlantic, hence the start-up of Pacific Blue and Polynesian Blue, so unless they operate them under those names it won't be Virgin pushing into these routes.

Good to see them finally coming into WA, with the intra state review winding up and the new way forward announced soon I'm sure there are some 'high flyers' working for the home town hero's who will be having some sleepless nights:E..... Even with some recent mining contract wins, Virgin coming to town and their protected routes being thrown open to some competition will see their yields on those routes slashed and burned!! Just like the plans to introduce the A320's.......:}

Who wants to start the bidding to see how long it will take them to start going back to these clients crying poor and needing a rate rise.

[topend3]

agreed bugsmasher competition on these routes is great though i remain to be convinced that Newman can support two carriers, I think Karratha can...

If the people in Newman want to see an end to no seats and high prices they will need to jump on board and support Virgin.

As QF have been very quick to lower their fares to match those of Virgin's then many punters may take the QF flight to get the FF points and the free meal...strange how some people think.

To be fair to QF they have been injecting a lot of capacity into the market, what gets people is how the prices suddenly get lowered when there is the threat of competition...

[muII]

Does XR go to Newman as well, that would mean they will have 3 carriers in there, sounds like too much to me..:bored:

[Skystar320]

Skystar 320 (Regarding VBA Port Moresby Ops)

"Doubtful to say atlease,

QF, PX [PX is using SAW E190] then now APNG

Nope -"

I wouldn't bet your house on that one!

I double checked my facts on this last night it seems that APNG & Virgin Blue are only talks with the newspaper getting a wiff and writing up on it.....

However with DJ unable to internationally operate the EMB's they would either

A) Transfer them to Pacific / Polly Blue
B) or, with DJ deffering EMB products APNG might have secured one of their options?????

All I know that is a far done deal between APNG & DJ hence making my point still valid.....

[topend3]

Does XR go to Newman as well, that would mean they will have 3 carriers in there, sounds like too much to me..

XR goes 4 x times per week but only 2 are RPT, as their service is very unreliable many of the locals don't bother with them so DJ see an opportunity here...

[Capt Claret]

As I recall some years ago, Port Headland community and businesses whinged and moaned about the lack of competition but then failed to support the second carrier when they arrived.

[blade root]

Just checked the VB flight booking site and at the bottom of the booking form states " flight operated by Skywest".

[Skystar320]

will be interesting to see is DJ go into PHE? [Port Hedland]

With the low cost of flights will they stimulate demand for the services to be viable?

[Monopole]

Good luck positioning aircraft onto bays between 5-6am Easy.......
What they have done is shunted the F50 further down the apron and bus the pax back n forth like the old days. So much for progress :rolleyes:

[Skystar320]

great news for carbridge, [bus company] they are picking up contracts left right and centre for perth domestic & international

Jets use aerobridges

turboprops make people walk

Ahhhh I remember walking to AN BAe 146 a while ago now..... the good old days where I was alot handsomer!1!!

[barrybeebone]

Virgins foray into intra WA is a good fit for the Embraers but i was surprised they chose newman and Karatha first. I would have thought the markets of Albany, Esperence, Broome etc are more lucrative but as someone said in earleir posts, these markets may have competition restrictions, if so then clearly skywest?QF are giving commission on their monopolistic routes to WA govt

I read the VB interest in PNG and I also saw their interest in starting Perth- Sth Africa flights. My guess is the cherry picking will continue of Qantas monopolies/duopoloies.

If you think about it QF has virtual monopolies/duopolies on most routes outside of Asia. QF also operate most of their international flights out of Sydney. VB will continue to cherry pick and I guess some will succeed and some will fail. I reckon they have more chance of succeeding if they focus on international outbound from airports other than Sydney.

Bali is booming at the moment with Australian visitor numbers almost back at pre bali Bomb 1 levels. If VB or one of their subsidiaries do establish flights on these routes then the timing will be interesting when you consider that Bali Bombers are about to be executed....will the terrorists strike again in Bali?

[Skystar320]

Virgin Blue cannot cherry pickers on the WA routes as according to Western Australian toursim there are protected routes....

Albany / Esperance / Exmouth??? / Geraldton are all closed along with Leinter, Leornora, Laverton, Mount Magnet

All Jet routes are open to competetion......

DJ will and continue to cherry pick the best routes from Qantas, though I dont fly to SA anymore any new competetion would be great out of perth.... A340-200 just dont do me! :(:(

[topend3]

word is that dj are about to pick up some of xr's newman contract work and that xr will reduce services to newman. this will certainly make dj's services more viable. it will also allow xr to deploy those aircraft to more lucrative routes or to use them as rescue aircraft for every second day when they have a breakdown...indeed their reliability on some of their charter/RPT routes to the north has been shocking.

[mikk_13]

As an atc, the last thing we need is more traffic in and out of those places. Broome etc is a frigen nightmare, we have all the helicopters/ coastwatch/QFA/ skywest/ everything basically going in and out.

I don't know how the crews do it sometime, i feel for them when I flood them with the required traffic and they are in the ctaf.

[mikk_13]

we do the best we can with what we've got, and it ain't much. I personally don't really like watching jets pass outside controlled airspace nose to nose and watching 8 aircraft going in and out of one aerodrome uncontrolled.

[ozziecrew]

Hi all!

Very intrigued into the expansion of DJ into wa. for those people who already work at DJ, is there talk there of a Perth base for cabin crew? If so, will it all be done internally, how many do u think will go to PER? I would come home from abu dhabi to be in the perth base in a second!

anyways cheers for any news!!!

safe flying!

[ad-astra]

Expressions of Interest out for Tech Crew for the Perth Base. Only Embraer. It would not make any sense to not have a CC base as well.
The wheels move slowly sometimes in VB, unfortunately the TC and CC wheels also move at different rates. Get you application in at the very least as the positions would be advertised internally first.

[Warped Wings]

ozziecrew,

Yes, there will be a cabin crew base in Perth for the Embraer operation.

[neville_nobody]

Albany / Esperance / Exmouth??? / Geraldton are all closed along with Leinter, Leornora, Laverton, Mount Magnet

Virgin can go to any of these places in a jet if they choose. I think you will find the demand for travel is up north not down south.

[JetRacer]

Neville Nobody wrote:

Virgin can go to any of these places in a jet if they choose.

I dont think they can, according to this document:

http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/mediafiles/aviation_reviewintro.pdf

An excerpt from the above document:

Regulated routes and airports: As result of the 2002 and 2004 Reviews, two regulated route networks were created (Coastal and Northern Goldfields) and licensed for commercial operation to 31 December 2008 through a competitive tender process, along with one regulated route. Subject to the outcome of this review, the Minister may reissue licences to the incumbent airlines operating those networks for a further two years and continue the licensing arrangements on the regulated route. A third network that is both regulated and subsidised by the State has a contract to operate to 1 July 2008 with an option for a 12 month extension.

The Coastal Network consists of the following regulated airports: Albany, Carnarvon, Esperance, Exmouth (Learmonth), Geraldton, Kalbarri, and Shark Bay. The Northern Goldfields Network consists of the following regulated airports: Geraldton (limited access), Laverton, Leinster, Leonora, Mt. Magnet, Meekatharra, and Wiluna. The regulated route is Perth to Derby (Curtin).

[topend3]

Skywest pull out of Newman effective 27 Oct. They maintain 1 x F50 charter per week and have lost their McMahon contract work to Virgin Blue...

[pilotdude09]

About time!!

Can't wait for the Karachi overnighters - look out Trawlers! (if it's still in business)

hahahaha :} unfortunately it is!

Interesting they went double daily but it'll work, PERFECT for people coming up for the day for business reasons etc.

Also there are ALOT of people that have to pay for their own fares as fly in fly out so they will fly Virgin Blue.

Hell i've booked a few flights with them, $378 return....who could complain? compared to Qantas which is atleast $450 return.

Was suprised especially with XR now flying here once on Tuesdays, twice on Wednesdays and with their little codeshare thing with DJ but then again XR has a contract.

Virgin will have no problem picking up some sort of contract and the public wont hesitate to fly them as it's cheaper and now gives us another choice in the afternoon to fly to Perth.

Been good for Karratha lately, Qantas going twice weekly to Brisbane, and the 2 days they fly are VERY convenient for Fly in Fly out workers as most start Wednesdays and finish Thursday mornings.

XR going to 2 flights on Wed's

And Virign going double daily Mon-Fri and once a day on Sat/Sun.

The demand is there so glad we finally have some competition and hopefully we may see fares drop a little. Qantas just rape us, $1200 return around Xmas compared to Virigns $408 on the same dates.

Once the new runway is open, it's been rumoured Rio Tinto and Woodside will sign deals with an airline (obviously QF/DJ) to fly KTA-SYD, KTA-MEL and KTA-ADL for their fly in fly out work force, to save on costs and to save "Fatigue" as it's playing a huge effect especially those who finish a 6am on a Thurs and then don't arrive in Sydney till 10pm. Will be interesting to see what develops anyway. Also once complete the KTA-BNE leg wont be weight restricted.


Very very happy!! :D

[pilotdude09]

Also as has been said, DJ cant just fly anywhere in WA. Most airports have ridiculous competition limitations and are only allowed certain amount of flights and certain aircraft hence why no one is flying to Geraldton other than XR. Which would be another good destination, but not sure if the E190 would be allowed to fly the route.

[Icarus2001]

Not quite true. Skippers and Skywest were both allowed to operate Geraldton but Skippers pulled out because why go head to head on RPT when you can half fill a Bras on a contract run and get paid for the WHOLE aircraft.

Learmonth (Exmouth) is interesting. The regulation relates to NON JET ROUTES. Skywest run the F100 up there so DJ should be allowed to put on an E Jet. The whole regulated routes thing is rubbish anyway and if someone went to the federal court to challenge it they would certainly have a good chance of having it ruled unlawful as it breaches competion policy - restriction of trade. Aviation is Aus is Federally legislated so the states really should not be regulating anyway. The only reason no one has challenged the rules is that it suits Skippers and Skywest to have a cosy little duopoly...two airline agreement anyone?

:hmm:

[neville_nobody]

Jetracer those routes are protected turboprop routes.

So you can't start going there in a turbo prop. Bring a Jet and there is no restriction.

[Monopole]

Thats not quiet the way I understand it Nev.

The turbo prop routes are regulated and you can not fly RPT in anything on those routes (GEL excepted having provisions for competition).

Jet routes are not regulated so DJ or anybody else can operate into Newman, Karratha ect.

I beleive XR looked at putting the 100 onto the GEL run a few years ago, but that would of become a 'JET' route and therefore opening it to competition.

[43Inches]

Maybe this will clear up some ambiguity;

As per the above post,

Regulated routes and airports: As result of the 2002 and 2004 Reviews, two regulated route networks were created (Coastal and Northern Goldfields) and licensed for commercial operation to 31 December 2008 through a competitive tender process, along with one regulated route. Subject to the outcome of this review, the Minister may reissue licences
to the incumbent airlines operating those networks for a further two years and continue the licensing arrangements on the regulated route. A third network that is both regulated and subsidised by the State has a contract to operate to 1 July 2008 with an option for a 12 month extension.

The Coastal Network consists of the following regulated airports: Albany, Carnarvon, Esperance, Exmouth (Learmonth), Geraldton, Kalbarri, and Shark Bay. The Northern Goldfields Network consists of the following regulated airports: Geraldton (limited access), Laverton, Leinster, Leonora, Mt. Magnet, Meekatharra, and Wiluna. The regulated route is Perth to Derby (Curtin).

There is no reference to jet or turboprop preference except in the original review in 03'/04' where it states;

Offer Skywest Airlines a two-year exclusive licence to operate
services from Perth to Carnarvon, Exmouth, Albany and Esperance,
subject to providing ongoing services for Leinster and Leonora and
acceptable service standards and fare structures.

and

Jet route services between Perth and Kalgoorlie, Port Hedland, Karratha and Broome would not be subject to any competition restraint.

[topend3]

Been good for Karratha lately, Qantas going twice weekly to Brisbane, and the 2 days they fly are VERY convenient for Fly in Fly out workers as most start Wednesdays and finish Thursday mornings.

I don't think this is a co-incidence pilotdude, i think woodside buy blocks of seats on this service....

[ITCZ]

Wonder how long GEL will remain a "turboprop" port once construction of the new radio telescope array begins?

www.ska.gov.au

Predictions are that astronomy students alone will account for 1,500 visits to YGEL per annum.

Not everything big is related to digging iron ore out of the ground!

[Skystar320]

Hardly works out to be a marginal increase of 6pax a day.........

An extra rotation with a FK50 will do, otherwise it will fill up the already vacant seats

It doesnt indicate that people might be driving up their themselves....

[topend3]

on the subject of the F50 these tired machines must surely be up for replacement soon, they first came into the AN fleet in the mid-80's and they have dubious reliability of late...

[Xeptu]

Sufficient to support VB's E-Jets, which no doubt will be deployed over the Geraldton and Albany routes early next year. That should set the Cat among the Pigeons :)

[Skystar320]

dude, DJ cannot operate their gets into Geraldton & Albany as these routes are closed for competetion :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[sthaussiepilot]

Topend,

Alliance just took delivery a few months ago of I think 2 new F50's for their Adelaide Base...

They dont look to bad, and apparantly are a good fly, however I Imagine the costs would certianly be getting up wouldnt they?

[Skystar320]

Those FK50's that Alliance brought were the upgraded FK-50-300's? later build early 90's airframe with more powerful engines, payload range etc

[neville_nobody]

dude, DJ cannot operate their gets into Geraldton & Albany as these routes are closed for competetion


As said before I think the restrictions are on turboprops Also I think you will find the restrictions are coming off the Gero run as they have passed their quota of passengers travelled.

[Skystar320]

as far as I know, as long as their is a turboprop on the these routes no - one else can come in for competetion...

Albany is turboprop - so no jet?
Geraldton is turboprop - so no jet?

these are protective routes by the government

So at the moment DJ is Newman & Karratha or am i missing something>?

[sthaussiepilot]

Ahh I didnt know that skystar,

So they would probably be more efficient? and should run for another say 10 years?

or would an update still be needed? I'd imagine so if fuel costs rose again..

[jarjar]

The loads on the F50's are good, however you have to remember that Xr's F50's are 46/48 seat config. Maybe two flights a day to GEL are full, the rest have half loads or less. The communities at the moment even though they tend to winge and bitch, they do like the frequency of the services(7 a day to GEL). If a larger jet was to operate, then the frequency would reduce.
The big question is,
What load factor does Virgin require to make these routes worth while?
Xr's Fokkers do not require large load factor's to make a profit, also keep in mind it's only a 200nm sector.

JarJar

[sthaussiepilot]

If they sent say the Embraer 170 in there, you need to fill at least 62% to break even (based on running costs, and according to their data on Embraer's website)

However it is unrealistic to think that it would happen, so they flights would only... "Possbily" work if they only flew say Monday Return Service, and a Friday Return Service...

I cant see the plane filling for them to do it everyday...

Embraer Commercial Jets (http://www.embraercommercialjets.com.br/english/content/ejets/emb_170.asp?tela=economics)

[Xeptu]

Skystar

Yes! You're missing something! Route protection expires in December this year, with extensions, March 09. It is not very likely that there will be route protection beyond that as the argument for it is simply no longer there and even if there is, it's almost certain that both Geraldton and Albany will not be included.

Both DJ's (E-jets) and QF's (Q-400) submissions are likely to be more attractive than XR's F50's

Geraldton has "never" been protected from a Jet Service.

[Skystar320]

That I didn't know when the contract expires......

GET has limited competetion as it may handle it...

Will be interesting to see what happens to those contracts!

[43Inches]

After reading the DPI document it seems as though jet competition is only unrestrained to the major ports and routes listed, this is services between Perth and Kalgoorlie, Port Hedland, Karratha and Broome.

The document is very long winded but i could not find any reference to jet/turboprop bias.

Geraldton only just crossed the threshold of 55000 (2003-04') pax per year to allow limited, staged competition. There is nothing stating whether the competition is jet or not, there is a tender process and an operator is granted exclusive rights (props, jets or whetever). Currently the system is under review with the two main regions to expire in december, it was reviewed in 2003-04 and decided to continue with periodic reviews.

Being tender based with an emphasis on sustainable air services it would be understandable that the ports look as if they are turboprop only but maybe thats because props offer the lowest operational cost per seat.

[Xeptu]

Well! I guess it's all a mute point anyway if the Liberal Party win Government. We'll know soon enough!!

[sthaussiepilot]

I cant recall if this is true or not,

but wouldnt that airport need to be upgraded? mainly the security?

When Jet Aircraft are going in to an airport, the passengers need to be screened yeah?

[Xeptu]

100 passenger seats or more whether that many seats are fitted or not.

[sthaussiepilot]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh ok..

Dont Mildrua have to upgrade due to DJs EJets comming in?

[joepatroni]

It does seem that XR are flying these F5O's to the limit. One does have to ask why they have not announced any plans for upgrading these aircraft. Perhaps they know they have only have a limited time left on the protected routes and very soon they will be opened up to other carriers. They seem to be riding on the crest of the boom wave and not really investing in the core WA rpt sector.

[Xeptu]

"A Limited Time Indeed"

[Skystar320]

I disagree your point of how the FK50 are flying to the limit.... just exactly how can you explain it?

[Xeptu]

I think I can answer that question for you Skystar, from a pilot operators perspective the F50 is a fantastic peice of equipment even by todays standard (IMHO) over a 200 nm sector it doesnt make a lot of difference over any jet. XR has historically been a sound operator, however it operates principally in an RPT market, which is a different ball game to the contract charter market.

The Market "wants" a jet, the governments "want" a jet and as impractical as that may seem, thats what they "want"

Virgin has answered the call with the E-Jet as impractical as we all saw it at the time, but years on here we are, the E-jet perfectly positioned for exactly that role.

XR on the other hand are not, the market sees the F50 as old 1950's technology, dinosaurs, which should have been retired years ago and whilst the Charter market will accept that the modern day core RPT market will not.

It's sad, but a fact of life and XR will most likely become a casualty of that fact.

[Skystar320]

Xeptu, greatly written. I understand the needs & wants especially how people complain they want a Jet. [mind you pax are first to complain then ticket prices go up from the price of fuel]

Though maybe just wrong words by joepatroni

"It does seem that XR are flying these F5O's to the limit. One does have to ask why they have not announced any plans for upgrading these aircraft. Perhaps they know they have only have a limited time left on the protected routes and very soon they will be opened up to other carriers. They seem to be riding on the crest of the boom wave and not really investing in the core WA rpt sector. "

The FK50 still has plenty of time left, and is a beautiful aircraft piSS over a Dash 8 or ATR42 anyday!

[Xeptu]

Wholeheartedly Agreed! but they wont piss all over a Q-400 or an E-jet and thats what the competition is proposing.

[sthaussiepilot]

If the F50 was running at minimum 80% full it would beat a QF400 or Ejet wouldnt it?

[Skystar320]

beat it in "what" aspects?

[sthaussiepilot]

In being financially sustainable, and profitable on this route

[topend3]

note the screening comes in if the operator runs a jet on a route and it is an RPT service, regardless of aircraft size. So Port Macquarie, Mildura, etc are all required to screen DJ's Embraers I believe...

[walaper]

Skystar320 would you be kind enough to let us know if you are rated on the FK50, DHC8 or ATR42.

[Skystar320]

sure - the answer is no neither....

If you look at documents that are readily available over the internet you may find that the FK50 is more suitable to these ops?


Though I do have a soft spot for the FK50 as a pax

[outback aviator]

:oh:Just a point of interest, Cityhopper (read KLM) is still operating Fokker 50's out of Amsterdam to destinations all over Europe.Perhaps they are finding it difficult to find a replacement?:confused:

[Monopole]

Yep, but they are replacing the F100 with EMB170/190's. :ok:

[kimberleyEx]

The F100 is been replaced world over by the EMB-170/190. But the F100 still serves WA well based on its payload uplift out of hot high ports (Newman, Argyle, Mount Keith etc). I am not sure whether the E-170/190 can lift these payloads out of these type of airstrips, maybe it can?

But at a unit cost of around $6 million or for a very good example maybe $8 million, this is considerably cheaper than one would expect to pay for a E-170/190. You would have to fill a large number of seats to make the E-170/190 make as much return as the F100 would.

Off topic just a bit, but can any E-170/190 driver confirm that the aeroplane only has one autopilot and it cant handle Engine out Inop conditions, ie: You have to disconnect the a/p when a engine fails. Secure the engine, and then the a/p can come back on once the engine is secured. Heard this the other day and found it hard to believe for such a modern aircraft.

Kim-ex.

[Warped Wings]

The E-jet autopilot has no problems controling the aircraft either during or following an engine failure.

[sthaussiepilot]

Have a look on their website on Commercial Jets, and go to a link something to do with updating your fleet or something, and look at all the differences with the F100 to the Embraer 170/ 175 and the Embraer 190/ 195

PM me if you need a link...

[XRlent100]

joepatroni, how are Skywest flying the F50's to the limit?

Skywest had Bombardier do a demo flight of the Q400 some time back. The reps at the time bragged about how you just had to advance the power levers to max and then press buttons to set power. The guys and girls from Skywest later mentioned to the Reps that the F50 has had that for years. So those of you who have never flown an F50 or stuck your head in one you should, just to see how far Fokker were ahead of the times.

:ok:

[coaldemon]

They were ahead of their time in 1988 but 20 years later that may not be the case. Certainly the Embraer's seem to be getting good press from those that fly on them. Would be interesting to know what the difference in seat cost is between the two. I thought Embraer designed those jets to take the regional business away from turboprops so you would think they are comparable, cost wise to run.

[sthaussiepilot]

EMBRAER (http://www.eforefficiency.com/)

All round comparisons to a few jets (F100, AVRO etc)


Also,

You would think so,,,, but no... not necessarily... the F50 can be more cost effective than the Embraer jets, however as mentioned earlier, the jets are more what people want... perhaps not as cost effective but its what the people want, looks wise, comfort, for pilots, A/C systems, maint. etc, so does that therefore make it better?

I have to say a strong yes.... however at the very same time... no

[Timber]

Maybe they finally get going with the "new" Fokker jets.

Fokker Aircraft (http://www.rekkof.nl/)

[Skystar320]

hasnt these aircraft been in the production queue for many years and without success?

[topend3]

XR also looked at the ATR42/72 family. these are gaining popularity in the region with ****** getting a second example and toll operating two as well as several pacific operators. ATR now have a rep in Australia to increase sales so could be a possible F50 replacement.

[SIDS N STARS]

Will the pax keep coming back if they have to pay extra to check in bags, pay extra for a meal, no lounge and no frequent flyer points?

QF are bringing in 737s. Is this for the extra capacity? If so, does the Embraer have the capacity?

Interesting times ahead.

[wirgin blew]

Most of these fly in fly out don't have much in the way of luggage and for the average Joe 23kg is more than enough. You can bring your own food if you want and I would imagine on the return to PER there wont be much to buy anyway. The Lounge is coming to PER. 190's carry 104 adults.
Lastly Velocity(FF) has been around for a couple of years.

Were have you been SIDS N STARS.

[Skystar320]

you'd be suprised how much luggage FIFO workers carry, especially if they need their own tools etc.

Isnt DJ going into the old AN lounge where Alliance are at the moment????? Thought Alliance had full control over it?

QF are bringing in 727's because they need capacity, interesting times when DJ are bringing only a 70 seat EMB-170, not a EMB-190

[Capt Claret]

All hail the resurrection of the 727. Horniest looking aeroplane made! :ok:

[Skystar320]

my mistake, the 2 is next to the 3, the 3 is next to the 2..........

I miss those 727's, what a great aeroplane they continue to be!

[Long Bay Mauler]

It must be starting to worry the powers that be,as I hear QF having been basing engineers in Karratha over the past few days.

Maybe QF are worried that if VB do this right they will lose a large sum of the WA profit.

[KittyBlue]

I was under the assumption the E90 were being positioned in PER? E70 are needed on the east coast regional services.

[Skystar320]

Press release stated EMB-170's

[XRlent100]

I don't think so Skystar, pretty sure it's E190's coming to Perth. 3 initially, and that's not 2 because it's next to the 3 but actually three E190's to Perth.

[Skystar320]

ahhh yes you are right, sorry about that - my mistake! :ok::ok::ugh::ugh:

[Engineer_aus]

The E190 will be restricted come summer unless DJ uprate the engines. As they are currently de-rated CF34's. NJS did the comparison a few years ago. The E170 payload vs range and baggage was crap, and to operate in and out of the mine strips you would have to reduce the px in the tyres which then make the aircraft carry less in weight. So not a good aircraft for W.A. in the summer. The F100 does ok, but the real aircraft that does well is the 146-100/300 the 200 is very poor.

[Capn Bloggs]

Meanwhile, QF Link is putting pictures of their "babes" on their 717s to match Branson's flying babes:

http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w334/capnbloggs/babe.jpg

The skies over WA will be a colourful place in a few months!

Those bent wings on the XF70/100s are a bit sus. If anybody sees a wing like that, I'd suggest you run, because it's about to let go with a bang.

[7378FE]

The 717 is off to Hawaiian Airlines to spend the rest of it's flying days doing 20 min sectors between the islands.

[Capn Bloggs]

Speaking of 717s, apart from an increased fuel burn, it looks to me like the 717 is on a par or exceeds the capabilities/features of the E195, and it's quite a few million cheaper. Bring 'em on! :}

[43Inches]

So where's the data comparing the e-jets to modern regional jets such as the CRJ and turboprops (old or new)?

[sthaussiepilot]

As I posted earlier,

No CRJ or Turboprops, but have a look here, has a few planes to compare to

EMBRAER (http://www.eforefficiency.com/) :ok:

hope that helps for now

[ozangel]

Having worked on the f100, the embraer, and the 2,3,4,7,800 series 737s, the embraer is much quicker to load and unload than any of them...

The F100 only has one entry/exit door, and also has 3 seats on one side which slows things down. The 737 variants have 3 seats each side, which slows things down a fair bit, but with 2 entry exit doors.

The embraer with 2 entry/exit doors and 2 seats aside make it very quick to unload, clean, and load. Provided theres no training happening up front, and you get some efficient ground and cabin crew, its possible to turn them around in 15mins without rushing. Once the doors are open, its about 1-2minutes on a full business flight.

[sthaussiepilot]

would be interesting to see if they will be painted as

VB

PB

or something else?

Anyone know for sure?



(if speculating please say so... )

[Capn Bloggs]

Red Jungle Jet 190 observed at Perth today. If it wasn't Route Proving, what was it doing?

[QF5]

E190's have been doing the ADL-PER run for 3 weeks now.

[topend3]

ORE-SOME !!! VIRGIN BLUE ANNOUNCES 1000 $9* WA FARES TO CELEBRATE NEW FLIGHTS TO NEWMAN AND KARRATHA
VIRGIN BLUE UNEARTHS A NEW ERA OF AIR TRAVEL FOR MINING COMMUNITY
Tuesday 21 October 2008: Virgin Blue Group of Airlines will step up its commitment to Western Australia with the launch of two new destinations along with an additional flight between Perth and Broome.

The carrier will begin flights to two of WA’s key mining communities, today launching daily direct services between Perth and Newman and double daily flights between Perth and Karratha.

In traditional form and in honour of its foray into the WA mining market, Virgin Blue has announced a special “ORE-SOME $9*” sale fare (inclusive of taxes and surcharges) one-way between both destinations and Perth. 1,000 fares will be up for grabs via Virgin Blue Home (http://www.virginblue.com.au) at 5pm WA time (7pm AEST) for one hour or until sold out. Flights are for travel in November and December 2008.

Virgin Blue’s first flight to Newman will touch down at 9.10am and the inaugural flight to Karratha will land at 2.30pm. On board both flights will be a strong Virgin Blue contingent, including Senior Executive (and former Newman local) Richard Tanner, as well as VIP Guests from the corporate and mining sectors.

Virgin Blue Chief Executive, Brett Godfrey, said, “We looked very closely at the opportunity to bring real value to both Newman and Karratha in terms of competitive air travel and identified both communities as having the need for alternative air travel options. We already have relationships with the mining companies who see the benefits of working with us to achieve their business travel needs in terms of affordability and reliability.”

He continued, “The launch of two new routes is a significant investment for the Virgin Blue Group and is a vote of confidence in the WA market. It also signals our strong focus on WA and our commitment to work with the mining community, the businesses that support the mining communities and of course the general community who rely on air travel to travel to Perth and beyond.”

Virgin Blue will operate brand new EMBRAER executive style jets on both intra-WA routes which offers a sleek, comfortable ride with a flying time between Perth and Newman of one hour and 40 minutes and Perth and Karratha of two hours. Virgin Blue offers connecting flights from Newman and Karratha to over five destinations via Perth including Adelaide, Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne and Sydney.

The airline has evolved its product over recent years to offer a business style product in terms of flexible fares, a loyalty program “Velocity” and has a comprehensive route network providing convenient connecting flights from Perth to the east coast. Off the back of the additional flights and the growing number of WA business travellers, Virgin Blue is currently reviewing the option of opening a “The Lounge” facility at Perth airport.

Brett Godfrey added, “Virgin Blue has been trumpeting the merits of competition and affordable fares for years and you only have to look at the figures to see the potential positive impact Virgin Blue will have on travel budgets. It is particularly critical for remote areas where people rely on air travel for access to the rest of the state and country”.

Karratha - Everyday fares start from $219* one way on the internet, 23% less than the equivalent competitor fare of $283 one-way on the internet. (as at 20 October 2008)

Newman -Everyday low fares start from $199* one way on the internet, 24% less than the equivalent competitor fare of $261 one way on the internet. (as at 20 October 2008)

Virgin Blue recently doubled flights between Perth and Broome providing a more convenient schedule, additional capacity and more competitive fares to one of Australia’s most highly rated tourist destinations.

“WA is poised to become an even more significant part of our national route network; we are serious about providing the state with even more flight options and destinations. Our team will work closely with the business, leisure and government communities to identify how we can provide benefits, convenient schedules and essential savings in the face of challenging economic times”, finished Brett Godfrey.

[MACH082]

Virgin check in desks were installed in PKA over the weekend replacing the old pearl aviation Pannawonica check in desks. A friend told me the Jungle Jet is in KA now.

[Capn Bloggs]

Virgin check in desks were installed in PKA over the weekend
I thought Virgin were only going to San Fran and LAX; now they're going to PKA (http://www.airportcode.info/c-PKA.html) as well?? :D

Virgin Blue will operate brand new EMBRAER executive style jets on both intra-WA routes
Executive style jets?? Bring 'em on! :}

[KittyBlue]

A contract was if DJ wanted Newman then they had to also fly Karratha.

[Skystar320]

Those $9 fares did not last long.

[solowflyer]

Saw the checkin desk this morning I'm sure they wern't there in the Karatha terminal monday when I walked through. Oh just flew over then.

[7378FE]

Service started Tuesday

[topend3]

A contract was if DJ wanted Newman then they had to also fly Karratha.

who made up that crap? DJ have the McMahons contract for Newman. Jet routes in WA are non-regulated...

[Skystar320]

I agree topend.... who made up that rubbish

[KittyBlue]

Well they were the words from the mouths of those who organised the route. Newman was only awarded if they DJ flew into KTA. I am just repeating what I was told.

Does Mcmahons have mining in the KTA area? I have no info on their setup..

Good thing DJ we were in KTA yesterday arvo, QF 738 went tech, up loaded 50+ pax.

[topend3]

kittyblue, you would want to go back to your source then, mcmahon have no presence in karratha, there was no requirement for dj to service karratha as well as newman...

[43Inches]

Good thing DJ we were in KTA yesterday arvo, QF 738 went tech, up loaded 50+ pax.
Does not sound like a greatly profitable route if this early in the service they have 50+ empty seats to accommodate stranded QF pax.

[ga_trojan]

Anyone know how the Virgin "flair" is going over with the miners? Totally different crowd to the east coast set.

[7378FE]

The Virgin Blue online timetable has Karratha & Newman switching to 737's from Monday the 27th :confused:

[KittyBlue]

Well as the CBRSYD flights were it took a bit for people to get on board, now those services are really doing well. 50 pax for day the day, and they are just regular pax. Not industry sector contract people.

As for the 738 flying from the 27th, daylight savings kicks in then so I imagine the IT didn't check the data inputted. KTA have only been trained in EJET handling, they skipped the NG training.

[7378FE]

Sounds about right, always had trouble understanding DJ's schedule input, haven't they heard of the SSIM and the DST amendment:hmm:

[KittyBlue]

ummmmmmmmmmm remember we do things differently, mostly as a reactive measure.......:O

[HOBAY 3]

The Virgin Blue online timetable has Karratha & Newman switching to 737's from Monday the 27th

Can't you see this is clearly an error!!!

All CBR-BNE, BNE-ROK and all other E90 services are apparantly changing to 73G overnight!

Hopefully they will fix it soon, I want to know the aircraft types for the additional HBA and LST services from December that are in their booking engine but not in their schedules!

[Little_Red_Hat]

The ADL-PER schedule showed 737 even while the EMbraers were running it, that oly changed last week so I think they're a bit behind with the updates.

[porch monkey]

If it can't be flown with the E170/190 then the flight will normally be made with the 737. The probable reason for the E jet not doing the flight is crewing. Lack thereof.....

[aussie027]

Does anyone who actually flies for VB know if and approx when they are going to open a permanent pilot base here in Perth??
A few facts would be greatly appreciated.
Please PM me if you do not wish to post here.

Thanks very much. :ok:

[F111]

A permanent E-jet pilot base is in the process of being set up. First group of internal FO’s upgrading to E-jet Captains for the Perth base are due to start training. External pilots who have recently been interviewed (and are currently on hold) have been offered a Perth base.

[aussie027]

Thanks F111 for the update.

.:ok:

[Van Gough]

So those of you who have never flown an F50 or stuck your head in one you should, just to see how far Fokker were ahead of the times

The DC-3 was ahead of its time in the 1930s as well. Maybe Skywest should get a few of those to replace the A320's :}

[topend3]

I do believe the A320 comes on-line tomorrow, being November 1, this was in the press release as the start date...so watch out for them...

[JetRacer]

I do believe the A320 comes on-line tomorrow, being November 1


Hahahahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahaha! :}:{

[AN Flyer]

Isnt DJ going into the old AN lounge where Alliance are at the moment????? Thought Alliance had full control over it?

Skystar - I might be wrong (ie - havent checked for a few years) but I think the old AN Managers lounge (the AN equivalent of QF chairmans lounge) is still there in PER for the pickings too, they might go in there if Alliance have a firm hold on Golden Wing.

[XRlent100]

Van Go - The difference between the F50 and the DC3 is that the F50 is STILL state of the art whilst the DC3 is just a tad outdated. As I said, stick your head in and have a look.

On this subject, how are the loads going with VB to Newman and Karratha. I notice todays DJ1727 has been cancelled. Is that due tech problems or pax issues?

I must admit thoses EMB 190's look sexxy on approach in to Broome, #$%@@^#$&'s

[topend3]

loads to KTA have been in the 40's mostly, a couple of flights around 60.

the problem with todays service is crew, they are having some issues till they open the PER base.

not sure about the F50 being state of the art...maybe in the '90's it was...

[Van Gough]

The difference between the F50 and the DC3 is that the F50 is STILL state of the art


Yep. The state of the art powercart system that the XR F50s use instead of an APU is an amazing demonstration of engineering prowess :ok:

[Engineer_aus]

There seams to be 2-3 E190's parked up at Perth at the moment. ZPJ hasn't left Perth for over a week, ZPE,A G have all had a extended rest. Great way to run a airline. Especially new aircraft. Just park them up.

[Skystar320]

DJ overnight these aircraft in Perth

[F111]

I think you may also find that 1 190 is parked there as an operational spare.

[Engineer_aus]

Skystar I do know that they overnight in Perth, but to have 2 E190's on the deck for the whole day, that seems a tad strange don't you think? esp ZPJ being parked somewhere around the airport for over a week now.

[Skystar320]

It has been mentinoed that this aircraft is an operational spare, seems quite legit as currently there are no mechanics . LAME / AME here in Perth yet

[Green gorilla]

Must be doing well to have an operational spare or they are losing bucket loads of cash.

[skyshow]

Although ZPJ can be a spare, it does fly too. It is more cost effective for Virgin Blue to have an operational spare now in every major port (due to reducing capacity), then have over capacity in the short term, especially with some capacity going to international flying shortly. Aircraft sitting on the ground lose less money than aircraft flying making a loss. But these aircraft do get used from time to time, some much more than others.

Current E-Jet flying out of Perth daily:

2x Broome
2 / 3x Adelaide
1 / 2x Karratha
1x Newman

You do need 3 aircraft to do the job, and of course due to this schedule there will be a time for the aircraft to sit on the ground. Once Perth base is up and running by next year, I presume there will be more routes opened, hence more utilisation. They can't fly to too many places too quickly, as you will have a shortage of trained crew, especially without a base. So watch this space in 6 months onwards.

[THE ORACLE]

Regardless of where you are in the commercial flying industry (charter, Airwork or RPT), aeroplanes that dont fly cost their owners money and in particular leased airliners that are not continually flying (and I mean 8 to 10 hours each and every day) are a huge financial 'millstone' around an operators neck.

[MELKBQF]

VB stated several months ago during the current economic downturn they would have 2 operational spares each day. It usually involves 1 737 and 1 E jet.

[Green gorilla]

So are they going to paint the state red in the next 6 months.

[Engineer_aus]

DJ do have LAME's on the E jets here in Perth. Casa would not allow any airline to fly their aircraft if they didn't have the appropriately trained engineers.