19 Years

[Captain Sherm]

19 years today. Good time to remember mates long gone and those still working overseas and even sadder, those who might just never come back. A loss to us all.

To those who feel like contributing something negative.....please don't.

To those who might reflect on a world past where there was a single, robust and respected pilot union...please reflect....and do something.

And to absent friends having a remembrance drink.....cheers.

Sui generis

[MTOW]

I think what says it all for me (and I suspect most others involved, at least on the non-heroic side) was that I didn't even remember that today was the anniversary. The vast majority, admittedly after some initial pain, got on with the new life that was forced upon them and made a go of it.

[Pinky the pilot]

To those who might reflect on a world past where there was a single, robust and respected pilot union...please reflect....and do something.


Amen to that!:ok::ok:

[Kangaroo Court]

What you guys don't realise is that by resigning and looking from the outside of the fish bowl in, you screwed a lot of G/A pilots too. Many of you came back to G/A to fly Navajos and other light aircraft to prop up the system you had just resigned yourself from.

What do you think that did to those of those just starting out? What about those of those that were waiting to hear back from QF and told they just took a whole bunch of domestic airline pilots who had agreed to become S/Os?

This was the most poorly and stupidly planned strike in the history of Australia. What we can learn from this is to;

1. Act from a position of power by never leaving the cockpit.

2. Never resign from a position of union membership; less lose all rights within.

3. Engage a well rehearsed media machine as a spokesperson, not one of our own.

This one dispute caused an enormous amount of tension in my own family and at our own airport among former friends. I didn't "cross", another did, (a Kiwi who went to Ansett).

I have no regrets about my actions then or since, but wish the poor planning of others had not influenced our lives as they did.

[tail wheel]

Careful now! :=

We're not going to change history or debate the perceived rights and wrongs.

A thread to remember - not to incite the usual passions! :{

Tail Wheel

[Kangaroo Court]

Tailwheel,

I agree with you completely, but there is a lot of drowning in self pity on this issue and I don't think I have ever heard a single apology from any of the pilots who resigned for totally playing their cards the wrong way.

It is said that a good gambler never gambles more than they can afford to lose. The problem I have here is that they gambled away the chances of those that weren't directly involved in the process without our vote as we stood there with dreams of our own without so much as a pot to piss in.

The decline in standards of training with the myriad of pilot sausage factories that have sprung up, together with pay-for-training and declining salaries has been as a direct result of how poorly this part of aviation history was played out.

We must learn from our past or be doomed to repeat it.

[priapism]

Oh Sh!t - here we go again!!!!

[preset]

This was the most poorly and stupidly planned strike in the history of Australia.


It wasn't a strike, it was a "dispute" ! Subtle difference for some but significant difference for those who took the time to try to understand what was going & why !! All in the past now. It's kinda like CRM those who took lessons from it probably didn't need them & those who remain ignorant probably should have but I could care less now :ugh:

[Kanga777]

Captain Sherm,

I for one will be raising my glass today, and look forward to a return soon.
Cheers.

[Ka.Boom]

Never go to a gunfight with a knife.

[amos2]

Are there any losers from the 24/8 dispute of 1989?

Sure are!

Scabs!...especially Ansett local scabs and Ansett o/seas scabs!

Meanwhile...the rest of us made a small fortune o/seas, and at home, and tend to feel a litle bit sorry for our scab brethrens!

(Hang on!... I think the sorry bit is going too far!) :ok::ok::ok:

[priapism]

please refer to post#7

[MTOW]

"Kangaroo Court". A rather apt and all too accurate 'handle' given the comments said writer has posted here.

Maaaate, if you weren't there, (as you so obvoiusly weren't from the total lack of knowledge you display of the rather unique situation Australia's domestic pilots found themselves in 19 years ago from your posts), perhaps it would be a really good idea to not display your ignorance with such patently silly comments on this, a publuc forum.

Is this where the mods delete my post and ban me from the thread as they did for posting on another thread that a particularly colourful character with more nicknames than I have changes of shorts has recently joined VA?

[ACMS]

I too raise a glass to my colleagues from '89

Cheers boys and girls.

Lest we forget.

[Zhaadum]

1989+ 19 years, then again at 20, why not 30 or 100? Its not bloody ANZAC day fer chrissake! Who cares? Build a bridge and get over it. :yuk:

[flying-spike]

"What you guys don't realise is that by resigning and looking from the outside of the fish bowl in, you screwed a lot of G/A pilots too. Many of you came back to G/A to fly Navajos and other light aircraft to prop up the system you had just resigned yourself from. "

I was in GA and on the executive committee of the Feds then and supported the DISPUTE pilots then and do now. What they/we were fighting for was a principle and one that very few pilots that were in GA then and probably in the airlines now demonstrate they don't have the balls to stand by themselves. I for one saw 7 of my pilots taken up by the airlines, they weren't bitching about the lack of opportunities created by the dispute.

Yes it is history, but as has been said if you don't learn from it you are bound to repeat it.

[Kangaroo Court]

I'm glad you were on the "executive committee", (whoppee freakin' do!), there "Spike". Can I tell you that the executive decision to resign was a bloody stupid one?!

I "supported" the strike by not crossing the picket line. For an "executive" you don't seem to have good comprehension skills.

Yes I went overseas and 11,000 hours later, I still think it was one of the stupidest mistakes a union could have ever made.

Go drown your sorrows in your brew. I'm going out on the jetski.

[tail wheel]

"...but as has been said if you don't learn from it you are bound to repeat it."

Agreed. But does it have to be repeated endlessly on every thread which touches this topic?

It is nineteen years ago. The events of that time are now set in history. Each of us involved in aviation at that time have our own opinions and no amount of debate will change anything.

There will be those who agree with your opinion and those who don't. Accept each is entitled to their own opinions - and move on!

[capt.cynical]

Sheeeet, the closing ceremony of the olympics is on wordwide TV and you sad sack's are on here STILL bitching about 89.
:(:(:(:(:(:(:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Casper]

We should definitely try to learn from this dispute.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"In the case of Bob Hawke, his action of laying at the feet of his friend (Sir Peter Abeles) the office of Prime Minister was unprecedented and should greatly disturb all Australians, irrespective of their political persuasion. This was clearly a corrupt abuse of power and should be the subject of a Royal Commission in its own right.

Finally, it is worth noting that one year after the start of the Pilots' Dispute, the industrial relations 'club' (consisting of the Hawke Government, some significant entrepreneurs like Sir Peter Abeles, the ACTU and the IRC) had embraced a new industrial relations policy based on direct negotiations between employers and employees called "enterprise bargaining".

The fact that the Pilots' Federation had been negotiating with their employers under the auspices of this same industrial policy for the previous 30 years appears to have escaped the attention of most observers.

When it is remembered that the Pilots' insistence that negotiations with their employers be free of outside interference, was a classic example of this new policy, then the hypocrisy of the industrial relations club almost defies belief."

[Dark Knight]

The decline in standards of training with the myriad of pilot sausage factories that have sprung up, together with pay-for-training and declining salaries has been as a direct result of how poorly this part of aviation history was played out


Which was precisely what was said and anticipated if all pilots did not have the intestinal fortitude to stand together and is precisely what happened.


We must learn from our past or be doomed to repeat it


The lesson was in front of all at the time in the form of the events at Braniff, Eastern & Continental, et al - United you win; divided you Fall!

KC - learn your history prior to opening your bitter mouth.

DK

[Kangaroo Court]

It is you that needs a history lesson. The bankruptcy of Braniff provided the first large import of foreign labour to attempt to bust the AFAP. I think the number was 587 pilots who were offered positions; at least that's what I read on the fax' that I was shown at the time.

The only thing that upsets me is that these people still expect sympathy. It's not like they took a bullet in the arse for their country. They lost a labour dispute... a very long time ago! At the time all wages were linked to the Prices and Incomes Accord contract and they broke away from that agreement-a year later it changed.

So what!

[RU/16]

Read the book "Sky Pirates". It was a more complicated fight than just the AFAP and Ables. This was a fight that had many personalities in powerful positions that had spent many years building up towards this fight and in retrospect became unbeatable.
Dont let the facts get in the way of a good story!

[teresa green]

As a survivor, the message is simple, always plan for the future, nothing is for sure, stick together, enjoy what you have now, and I wish everyone of you a happy and safe flying career in this wonderful country we call home. AND DON"T EVER ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN AGAIN. LEARN FROM US.

[Obie]

But, will they learn, Trees are Green?

No, I don't think they will!!

Poor Sods! :ok:

[Dark Knight]

with a few interesting parallels....

History unlearned??

DK


May 12 1982: Braniff International Airways

Recession, price wars and sharply rising fuel costs have gravely wounded the airline industry during the past four years. Last week those troubles claimed their first major victim. Braniff International, the ninth largest U.S. airline, declared bankruptcy. It was the first failure of a major carrier since American aviation came flying out of the barnstorming era in the 1930s.

In June, 1988:

BIA-COR Holdings, Inc. - Core Group led by Jeffrey Chodorow (who would reform Braniff one more time in 1991 and steal the rest of the companies' assets) and Arthur Cohen bought Braniff from Dalfort Corporation. Scot Spencer also joined the team, who, as you will find out, was thrown in jail for his involvement in Braniff III. They borrowed LARGE sums of money to pay Pritzker and Post for the airline. A new management team was brought in, and Bill McGee was named Chairman, president and CEO. McGee was formerly with Piedmont Aviation, Inc. (Piedmont Airlines). Dalfort, led by Pritzker in 1988, still held a substantial stake in Braniff, Inc.
In June, 1988 BIA-COR Holdings, Inc. - Core Group led by Jeffrey Chodorow (who would reform Braniff one more time in 1991 and steal the rest of the companies' assets) and Arthur Cohen bought Braniff from Dalfort Corporation. Scot Spencer also joined the team, who, as you will find out, was thrown in jail for his involvement in Braniff III. They borrowed LARGE sums of money to pay Pritzker and Post for the airline. A new management team was brought in, and Bill McGee was named Chairman, president and CEO. McGee was formerly with Piedmont Aviation, Inc. (Piedmont Airlines). Dalfort, led by Pritzker in 1988, still held a substantial stake in Braniff, Inc.

Braniff filed for Chapter 11 on September 28th.

Braniff resumed service on October 1st for a short charter career using its 727s. It flew to 11 cities and Braniff finally called it quits at the end of December 1989.
If greed played a tiny role in Braniff Airways shutdown in 1982, and a bigger role in the shutdown of Braniff II, then it played THE STARRING role in the conception of "Braniff III." Jeffery Chodorow, with Scot Spencer, (both of whom bought Braniff II from Jay Pritzker) defrauded thousands of people and conned corporations left and right while burying the Braniff name firmly and finally into the mud.

Click here to read about the slimebags who sullied Braniff's name. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0426041rocco1.html/t0)

Continental Airlines:

In 1981 Texas Air Corporation, an airline holding company controlled by U.S. aviation entrepreneur and raider Frank Lorenzo, acquired Continental after a contentious battle with Continental's management who were adamantly determined to resist Lorenzo. Continental's labor unions also fiercely resisted, fearing what they termed as, "Lorenzo's deregulation tactics." During this struggle, Continental Airlines President, A. L. Feldman, committed suicide, on August 9, 1981, in his office. In the end, Texas Air Corp. prevailed. Frank Lorenzo became Continental's new Chairman and CEO. Texas International Airlines (TI), another Lorenzo holding, was merged into Continental Airlines in June 1982. TI ceased to exist and the "new Continental" relocated its headquarters to Texas Air's base in Houston, Texas.

The merger resulted in a large expansion of Continental's hub at Houston Intercontinental Airport and its extensive routes to Mexico. Airline unions fought Continental at every step. In the Federal courts, they unsuccessfully sued to stop the company's reorganization. They were successful in working to persuade Congress to pass a new bankruptcy law preventing bankrupt companies from terminating contracts as Continental had successfully done. The law was too late to affect Continental and the drastic cost cutting and changes that had rescued it from liquidation.

Frank Lorenzo took Continental into Chapter 11 bankruptcy in September 1983 after unsuccessfully attempting to negotiate a lower pay rate with labor unions. Following bankruptcy, Continental was freed of its contractual obligations and imposed a series of new labor agreement on its union workers, sharply reducing the airline's labor costs at the cost of employee morale.

This move made Continental vastly more competitive with the new airline startups then emerging and thriving in the southwestern U.S.Much of the airline was liquidated and the company was rebranded as a low-cost carrier. Continental was also forced to abandon its hub in Los Angeles although it maintained its Denver and South Pacific routes. A more streamlined, leaner Continental emerged only a few days after the bankruptcy filing, a fact which gave Continental the distinction of being the first airline to fly through bankruptcy
Lorenzo goes to Eastern Airlines:

Lorenzo and his Texas Air International oversaw a dramatic and rapid decline for Eastern Airlines, which was in a difficult but redeemable position when purchased. Although the exact causes of the decline are disputed to this day, most analysts agree that the carrier was systematically raided of valuable assets including new aircraft, its east-coast shuttle service, its lucrative fuel operations, and its worldwide travel agent computer system (SystemOne), almost all of which was sold at drastically reduced prices or given to Lorenzo's other carrier, Continental.

This combined with poor management, a worsening economy, and deteriorating labor relations forced the carrier into Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1989 following a mechanics strike.

At the time it was the largest airline bankruptcy in U.S. history, a title it held until United filed after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The carrier was placed under the direction of trustee Martin Shugrue.

[Fantome]

LONG SERVING AFAP PRESIDENT CAPT DICK HOLT'S ASSESSMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS MADE AT THE TIME OF THE PILOTS' DISPUTE

TO: All members of the Australian Federation of Air Pilots

FROM: Dick Holt

SUBJECT: The "Award" Applications by your Employers

Brian McCarthy has granted me the privilege of direct communication with you about the "awards" application if I wish. I do wish and I will try to contain my language.

This "award" has been carefully drawn up by and on behalf of persons having a massive dislike of pilots and which under normal standards would cause its originators to be dismissed for stupidity.

It is made possible only by a mischievous and dangerous association between parties and persons in political and commercial fields each of which has a direct vested interest in destroying the protection under which you have worked for several decades.

This is proven inter alia, by the fact that these awards would destroy by elimination, a host of protections which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Dispute at large.

It seems to me that such awards would leave you:

* without representation by your Federation
* without any bid system
* without any grievance procedures
* without any rules for the application of seniority
* locked into a system under the control of the A.C.T.U. and the Politicians of the day.
* subject to "direction" by the Industrial Relations Commission.
* without defined Loss of Licence insurance.
* without the ability to discuss new aircraft types.
* without protection from arduous tours of duty. (particularly in relation to pilot fatigue)
* without any right to be informed why you have been terminated
* without A.F.A.P. support in accident or incident investigation
* without a specified recreation leave arrangement
* without any Equipment Assignment procedures
* without any recognised input into scheduling
* without a savings clause
* without protection against enforced dual endorsements
* without any severance pay.
* without any pay calculation formula
* without recognition of non-flying time spent away from home port.
* without a controlled pay "deduction" rule
* without any input into rostering
* without adequate specified reserve duty rules (a massive loss)
* without any drafting rules
* without any pay protection for cancellation, substitution and displacement
* without any real specification of your duties performed.

and so on.

The proposed Australian Section 6B says: "It is not considered necessary nor possible to specify every detail of the duties, it being generally understood within the aviation industry what those duties comprise" (I wonder who wrote that!) The proposed Ansett award at Section 21 says: "all other conditions of employment shall be as determined by the employer".

So - you are left with your employer making all of the decisions on all of the matters listed above as and when they come up, which they surely will, and a multitude of other matters including introduction of new aircraft types.

The style of management mischief and patronage this would recreate appals me.

Another vicious section of the general approach to the Industrial Relations Commission is the request by the airline management group to set aside all General Aviation Awards - an animal act taken without any thought of the consequences, other than an insane desire to get at pilots.

All in all, this is vintage 1950 - 1959 stuff. In those days:

* you did what you were told
* you rang and begged for information about the next roster so that you could make a few plans
* accommodation was frequently vile - a two bed room over the hanger at Essendon
* a five bed dormitory in the staff quarters of a hotel in Cairns - we weren't good enough to occupy guest rooms!
* advancement - you eased respectfully into the Senior Route Captain's office and asked about your prospects, upgrading etc. The right hand opened a drawer about four inches and looked at whatever was "the list" and said something like - "maybe soon, maybe longer"
* the "good boy" system was rampant - carry the extra weight, bend the regulations etc, very much on the agenda.

I'm not being nostalgic - you may be assured that the 1990's version of that kind of treatment awaits you under such awards.

No other Association or Trade Union in Australia would accept such a disgusting recession to employer savagery and denigration of current working conditions.

Dick Holt. 4.10. 89

ABOUT DICK HOLT

Richard Tweedy Holt retired from Ansett Airlines on 29 November 1978 on his 60th birthday. The Pilots Federation was as strong as it was largely because of his tireless efforts over decades building up the organisation and because of the example of selfless purpose he set for others. (Dick served seven terms as President of the Federation). He was always quick to acknowledge the outstanding work of others, but for many it was Dick's leadership and ethics that formed a large part of the glue that bound Australian pilots together.

When he retired he made a speech which included the following observations:

"Through his seat at the front of the aircraft flow the efforts of thousands of people who provide the means by which he carries out his task. However, it is an undeniable fact that:

* His is the final responsibility.
* His is the ultimate decision in any course of action.
* He can never be complacent.
* He must be humble; the elements keep him so.
* He must prove himself to his peers over and over again throughout his career, or seek another job.
* He must exude a quiet confidence in his own ability and his aircraft.
* He must create an aura of efficiency and capability such that the passengers stream on and off the aircraft without even a thought about what is occurring at the front of the aircraft.
* Finally, he must be ready during every second of his working life to defeat the ultimate emergency he may encounter at any time."

Dick's own flying career exemplified this. On his first flight as captain on the DC9 he had to shutdown an engine in flight. On his first flight as a captain on the B727, he had an engine failure on rotation out of Sydney.

He was a pilot's pilot with a boyish love of flying, but of far greater import than that was his remarkable sense of justice and fair play. This was reflected in the democratic structure of the Pilots' Federation. He had a rare understanding of human nature, one that made him so effective. He bore his detractors and those who attempted to destroy his many year's work no rancour. As he said of those who through their actions so damaged the Pilots Federation, their profession and the careers of their former colleagues: "Their alleged character weaknesses are in us all to a certain extent and we have no right to judge them. Our job is to live by our own personal ethics and ideals and not impose those ideals on others." Dick's definition of ethical behaviour was simple: "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself."

Dick's funeral in May 2000 was attended by a large number of former colleagues from Ansett and Australian Airlines who came from around the world. A number of pilots who had returned to work during the Pilots Dispute a decade earlier came. Their presence served to remind others less embroiled, less bitter, of how highly Dick was regarded. Many felt a great sense of loss and grief during the funeral, primarily at Dick's passing of course, but inevitably at the destruction of so much that he had built up over his years of service to his profession.

As Captain Sherm said in his originating post here yesterday -

19 years today. Good time to remember mates long gone and those still working overseas and even sadder, those who might just never come back. A loss to us all.

To those who might reflect on a world past where there was a single, robust and respected pilot union...please reflect....and do something.

To those who feel like contributing something negative.....please don't.

[Knumb Knuts]

Um - KC is definitely a hero. Guaranteed.
Worth pointing out, TW, it was he, KC, who started to aggro on the thread. No genius is required to understand it was a deliberate attempt by KC to get you to shut it down. Only a hero would do it. Note all the threads from non-heros have been as Sherm requested - just a recall of life altering events.
Forget KC, TW me mate.

[flying-spike]

Kangaroo Caught
FYI I joined the executive after the dispute started (Sept 89). With your exemplory communications skills I gather you would have not been much of a loss after the dispute.

[Kangaroo Court]

OH, so I get it. The pilot's dispute was MY fault? Okay then! Maybe it was a good thing that it happened after all. At least I got a good job overseas, others weren't so lucky to have married a foreigner that gave almost world wide domicile capability.

Anyway, I think Theresa Green said it best. Learn from what happened; but why ever you've got guys up here rationalizing stealing jobs from each other under the latest greenfields scam, we've got a long way to go.

[Fantome]

Captain Sherm in an earlier thread -

Here’s a perspective….just one but it’s all I’ve got……

Many things have defined my career. Some, each time I read about them, replay themselves so vividly in my mind I feel the pain and emotion of actually being there, yet I wasn’t…. the United DC-10 at Sioux City…..Neil Williams doing his inverted approach in a Zlin….the Korean 747 at Guam…..the American DC-10 at ORD….the BOAC 707 engine fire at LHR…..and many more. I give thanks that people like Davies wrote “Handling the Big Jets”….that Gann wrote “Fate is the Hunter”….that Johns wrote the “Biggles” stories, that St Exupery wrote “Wind, Sand and Stars” and “The little Prince”….that Bennett wrote the “Complete Air Navigator”…that Kermode wrote “The Mechanics of Flight”……that I saw “Dawn Patrol” and “The Dam Busters”, “The Great Santini” and “The High and the Mighty”, that I read “The Flight of the Intruder” and “Goodbye Mickey Mouse” and that Cecil Lewis put pen to paper for the generations that followed. I can’t forget flying with a survivor of the TAA Viscount crash at Mangalore….I can’t forget being interviewed by Chief Pilot who had flown a Convair down the Brisbane River with an engine in reverse pitch…….or a Chief Check and Training Captain who had rowed at my old school and but months later was flying P-40s in the desert…….

Thus with the “Dispute”. It happened. And I was actually there. I could no more forget it than forget my name or any of the thousand stories that make up the lore of aviation and sit in my treasure box alongside rapidly tarnishing wings and gold bars. I cannot forget the years that my children grew up without me close. I cannot forget polar routes across the Arctic, new airlines and lost airlines, wide-eyed junior F/O’s and the sheer joy of sunrise after long Pacific crossings and the Northern Lights. All so far from home.

Don’t ask me to “get over it”. Don’t ask me to forget that some colleagues voted in secret ballots to encourage me to persist….yet had already signed “contracts”…..that Hawke was ready to do, say or spend anything to do his masters’ bidding….and that many….my family included, could not see why I wouldn’t cross a picket line to save my life. I cannot ever forget that. I can never forget pilots who parroted the mantras “What’s the Federation done for me?”….”I made a decision for my family”….I just took my job back”….as though those oft-repeated words from an Abeles script could hide the treachery beneath.

But I work with those people. I have hired them, shared cockpits with them, checked them, counselled them, mentored them. They are humans…they did what they did. I did what I did….what I voted to do….what 20 years of active AFAP membership had prepared me to do. I sleep well at night. I stay away from melancholy and grief over lost years and wasted emotion….

But I cannot forget and nor should any pilot. Unity is strength…yet frail. Solidarity is the key….yet our weak point. It could happen again…now or soon or in some far distant sky…..but it could happen.


And from john tullamarine, responding to -

"Sadly, there is always that small minority of "professionals" that can't move on and let old animosities rest."

Whether animosities persist or not, they ought not to be pursued with vigour in PPRuNe ... the dispute participants will be/are approaching (or already have arrived at) senility and, as individuals, eventually will be long forgotten by the Industry.

Individuals, however, retain the prerogative of choosing with whom they might enjoy a drink ...

The Government/Airlines/Unions were able to do incredible damage to a group and the country.. I am mindful that the pilot group backed off rapidly once it all turned pear shaped .. but the other side would have none of that .. and that action (in my insular view) probably was responsible for the dreadful things which followed ....

This suggests that future pilot groups dare not forget the basic Industrial considerations relevant to the dispute .. lest they be tempted to commit similar acts of stupidity as were demonstrated (on both sides) in the lead up to the 89 stoush and the following six months or so.

[Kangaroo Court]

Thank you Fantome. That was the best read of the entire thread. Hopefully we can leave it all at that.

Lock!:ok:

[flying-spike]

Well said Fantome, I wish I could have said that myself.

[Spaz Modic]

:) Tailwheeler, reckon Knumb Knuts is right, Kanga Court is just trying to get you to close the thread.
If Kanga is genuine about his claim not to have been involved, it begs belief he wants to have you lock the thread when it is complying with your standards.
Let those who want to share the experience with their colleagues at this time reminisce somewhat.
Cheers:D

[greybeard]

Hear is some facts which happened to me as an individual in the mess of 19 years ago

My phone was tapped
My life was threatened
As was my wife's
AS WAS MY CHILDREN'S
I was followed around my small semi country town until the local brigade sent him off
My exact hotel location in Europe was reported to my wife as I was in the company of "a beautiful young lady", and as my daughter they were quite right, she was and is.

I will remember all this, I have "got on with life" as so many have suggested we "must do" and am still contributing to Aviation in so called retirement, never been busier or happier in real terms.

JUST NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN, FIND SOME COMMON GROUND TO SORT IT ALL OUT IF THE CURRENT PILOTS HAVE THE WILL.

:=

[TheNightOwl]

It's good to see there are still some constants in life, even if they have to include Amos2's diatribes about his pet "scabs" and anyone who worked for Ansett during the dispute and resultant strike.

Whatever your side of the fence, don't ever let it happen again; for your sake, and those of your families, stay strong!

Onya, sunshine!!!:D

[teresa green]

Ah the great Dicky Holt, in my day a better leader never born. Going thru the things he did for us, amazing. Yes we did have to share accomodation, I remember my first officer and myself had to share in Cairns one night, neither of us getting any sleep due to the very amorous goings on in the room next door. We ended up playing cards all night. (we later found out it was one of our very own flight attendents with a new found boyfriend and yes, I did have a little chat with her!)another great leader was Buck Brooksbank, always on the side of the pilots, both he and Dicky had the ability to negotiate and convince even a eskimo he needed to buy a fridge. Two excellent pilots, two good Australians. Buck is still with us, hale and healthy living in BNE. My regrets of the dispute: never to get to say goodbye to my father who died before I could get home from Europe, taking the children away from beloved grandparents, ditto their school, the destruction of a much loved family dog, the sale of a family home, the loss of friends, who I thought were true, terrible homesickness for us all, the bravery of my little kids, trying so hard to understand a new language, a new culture, and my dear wife who suffered a breakdown, and so bravely tried to cope for my sake. On the good side (and there always is a good side) the children learnt another language, it taught them to consider other races, it taught me how flying in OZ is a piece of cake compared to Europe and gave me new skills, we visited art gallerys, zoos, that we enjoyed, but most of all it taught us that we live in the best country in the world and to appreciate it. So my hope for you all is that you are NEVER forced to leave what you love, but do so because you want to, you are NEVER forced to leave your job, you do so because you want to, and you are NEVER forced to take sides against mates you would normally walk over glass for. If it never happens again to our fellow pilots then at least we have achieved something.

[john_tullamarine]

(a) the sad thing is that here we are, 20 years or so on, and the newchums are already doing their utmost to forget/ignore the lessons learned

(b) if you run into Buckhurst, remind him that he owes us a meal ..... had his moments but not a bad sort of bloke ...

[7x7]

the sad thing is that here we are, 20 years or so on, and the newchums are already doing their utmost to forget/ignore the lessons learned john-tullamarine, a distressingly accurate observation.

Reading some of the almost virulent "get over it!" comments here on Pprune from younger Australian pilots who weren't involved in the events we speak of here, I sometimes find myself wondering if these people haven't been unduly influenced, (perhaps even unconsciously), by hearing only the (to be not too unkind, let's call it 'self-serving') version of events of those days from those stalwart individuals who 'remained behind'. Or, to put it another way, whose heroic deeds 'left them in possession of the battlefield'.

I certainly would not be the person I am today had I remained in my safe little coocoon flying domesticly in Australia, as I was content to do until I was forced to look elsewhere. I say 'forced', because even today, knowing what the decision not to 'get all heroic' cost me (and even moreso, my wife and family) both emotionally and financially, I don't think I could have made that journey into head office to sign on the dotted line.

I can't begin to comprehend what that journey must have cost the individuals who made it in what must have been a dreadful loss of self esteem.

Even those who make light of what they did, like the Americans and Brits who flew half way around the world to take up the Australian jobs (in circumstances that even the most insular and ill-informed of them must have known without a shadow of a doubt were dodgy in the extreme) must have their moments of introspection, perhaps late at night.

However, as others have said, to the younger ones, the main message remains: learn from the mistakes we made - and don't make similar ones yourself. I fear there are too many out there who haven't taken this message in.

[Spaz Modic]

:= The lesson is: NEVER start an industrial dispute when (a) the owner of the airline is running the country by jerking the PM's chain, and (b), the leader of the imitation yoonyun mooment is a mate of both the above. :D

[Kentot Besar]

[QUOTE]
greybeard (http://www.pprune.org/members/76992-greybeard)

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Perth Australia
Age: 64
Posts: 94


http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon6.gif
Hear is some facts which happened to me as an individual in the mess of 19 years ago

My phone was tapped
My life was threatened
As was my wife's
AS WAS MY CHILDREN'S
I was followed around my small semi country town until the local brigade sent him off
My exact hotel location in Europe was reported to my wife as I was in the company of "a beautiful young lady", and as my daughter they were quite right, she was and is.

I will remember all this, I have "got on with life" as so many have suggested we "must do" and am still contributing to Aviation in so called retirement, never been busier or happier in real terms.

JUST NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN, FIND SOME COMMON GROUND TO SORT IT ALL OUT IF THE CURRENT PILOTS HAVE THE WILL.




What??? This happened in a free world? Jeez, this is certainly shocking to me.

As for your so called dispute....well it set back my command upgrade by a few years when my company see it fit to accommodate those who " resigned " from Ansett & Australian ( so as not to lose your super? ). So that misguided " dispute " sure had far reaching effects on other pilots too!

[Fubaar]

An educated guess and it would be pretty safe to say that the last poster is Malaysian. And a Malaysian speaking utter drivel.

The huge influx of experienced Australians - both captains and FOs - into MAS in 1989-90 allowed that airline to expand to a degree that would simply never have been possible, even if they had promoted people like Kentot Besar - as they did, even with the Australians there - with absolute minimum experience.

For our Bumi brothers, promotion to the next (bigger) type was based on hours, so, until the Australians arrived, the Malaysian pilots logged their taxi times 3 minutes before they actually pushed, logged their chocks on three minutes after they parked the brakes, taxied at less than walking pace and dragged their aircraft in at minimum speeds from God only knows how far out to ALWAYS do a full instrument approach.

And as soon as they gained the required minimum experience, they were promoted - and when MAS had enough promotable locals, they dispensed with the services of the expats. So, like a few of our heroic friends, I think you might be falling into the trap of being a little selective in your memory, Kentot Besar.

[Centaurus]

you are NEVER forced to leave your job, you do so because you want to

Unfortunately the Age 60 rule forced so many competent pilots on to the scrap heap of the unemployed..

[Eclan]

My phone was tapped My life was threatened As was my wife's AS WAS MY CHILDREN'S I was followed around my small semi country town until the local brigade sent him off .......reported to my wife as I was in the company of "a beautiful young lady"............... With that description, a new entrant could be forgiven for a little uncertainty as to which side you were on back then. Not sure if the AFAP had the capability of initiating a phone tap though. Amos2's diatribes about his pet "scabs" and anyone who worked for Ansett during the dispute As always, many forget there were just as many who crossed the (invisible) picket line in Australian Airlines, as well. They backed the better horse, in the end, KC is definitely a hero Is a "hero" the one who crossed the picket line or the one who walked out on a losing fight, having thrown it all away? Neither sounds very heroic to me. Ultimately, anyone here resorting to name-calling and the spewing forth of vitriole is probably too infantile to really have been involved in a war 20 years ago.

[greybeard]

Just to clear the air, it wasn't the AFAP who did the things mentioned.

As to joining, was in the very beginning when this site was a continuous bulletin board, got lost in the "crash" of the system.

There were many positions overseas, France, Belgium, Holland,Germany, Switzerland in Europe alone, and contracts were run in accordance with the fluctuating demands, some are still there, most have gone.

My point was that the total "Bastardry" knew NO BOUNDARIES and should NEVER be forgotten and avoided at all costs in the future.

:ok:

[Nil defects]

We’re not all old and demented.

I was only a young F/O when the dispute happened and haven’t reached 50 yet, There is hundreds of us in this bracket and we will hopefully be around for a few years yet.

I wholeheartedly support Greybeards assertions. I also remember that Greybeard and other senior pilots at the time supported the young F/O’s as much as possible. They lent us money for mortgages and the like with no demands to pay it back. Most, like myself did pay it back as soon as practicable, but some never did.

Where are you going to get that sort of camaraderie today.

In the end the dispute for me was about your mates. I was looking out for them as most of them were looking out for me. Maybe I was naïve but I expected my colleagues to stick together and it was disappointing when the few did return.

As Greybeard and others have said – never let it happen again.

And as pilots you should be watching out for each other because no one else is going to!

[teresa green]

There were a lot of generous people who came out of the woodwork in our town of Gisbourne Vic. There were a lot of aircrew there at the time, and the town had still not got over the loss of 2 Flt gingerbeers in Ash Wednesday. When we got the bullet, the policemans wife came around with some cake, the Doc would not let me pay for my daughters ear problems, the plumber only charged for the parts, the school got in touch and told me pay the fees when you can but don't stress about it, we have plenty of time, and the bank manager offered to help with any finance problems that he could adjust. This is of course the advantage of living in a small rural community, I would like to think it still happens today and probably does in the bush. I will never forget the kindness shown to us, and other aircrew affected, by the people of those small towns.

[bushy]

I think EVERYBODY LOST in 89.

[Valdiviano]

I had a drink and remembered some great coworkers
Will never forget or forgive heroes
It saddens me that people have NOT learned from the past mistakes
Got on with my life, retired at 52 (something I would not have been able to do, if I had stayed with the airline), so please do not tell me to get a life.
PLEASE, PLEASE learn from the PAST

[gaunty]

greybeard mon vieux, amen to that :ok: I wasn't one affected, but I felt a very deep sense of betrayal at the trashing of our so called democracy. And bushy is right too and that includes ALL Australians.

There will be several Brazilian rainforests in peril when a certain person goes to hell and the already written articles hit the stands.

[Eclan]

it wasn't the AFAP who did the things mentioned. I imagine they didn't carry out wire-tapping but let's face it; the AFAP and a good number of their staunchest supporters amongst the pilot body stooped to some pretty low levels (and, yes, so did the airline management) during attempts to pressure the heroes into not going back. Levels more commonly associated with the more mild end of the BLF. Reprehensible action regardless of which side perpetrated it. Eclan, as one who was obviously not involved yourself, you're a brave man indeed to stick your head above this particular parapet, where a quick trawl through past threads will show you that feelings run very high. Am I? I know people on both sides and I know all about the feelings. I have a distinct opinion on the whole sorry affair and it shouldn't be too hard to determine it and, no, I was not involved directly. But I was still affected, career-wise as well as financially. As were tens of thousands of people who suffered financially because of that action that a small number of people took. So whilst I sympathise with the end which was the goal of the pilots, please open your eyes a little further and try not to be so selfish in your outlook. PLEASE, PLEASE learn from the PAST It's far too late. As has been pointed out, the future is being decided today by youngsters who know little about 1989 and nor do they care. They are flying Shiny Jets. Maybe a course on '89 and Industrial Relations should be made a part of the CPL syllabus.

[Eclan]

By the way, here's to the '89ers who quietly packed up and left without looking back, thereby upholding their personal morals and sense of honour; who did so without first having lowered themselves to throwing eggs, clicking clackers, making abusive midnight phone calls or threats, defacing or destroying the personal property of others and then sneaking off into the dark in an anonymous and cowardly fashion, etc, etc, etc..... no doubt you are men of honour and I'd buy you a drink. As an outsider, I'm not sure what can be said about the other side other than that some of them are nice guys, regardless.

[Obie]

...so, the future is being decided by "youngsters"... like you, Eclan?

Strewth!...God help us all! :ok::ok::ok:

[Eclan]

I wish. Not so young, Obie. What does 15300hrs get me....!!?? Another few years and I might've been involved myself but only, I believe, on the one side and not the other. I'd have ended up overseas. Sorry if I sound condescending. Just trying to be even-handed.

[Obie]

You see, the problem we have with you Eclan, is that you're a "fence sitter".

You say your position is clear, and the side your on is clear, but it's not!

You are obfuscating, and you know it!

After 19 yrs we're all a bit tired of neutrals, like you, trying to be all things to all people on all sides!

It wears a bit thin, Mate! :=

[victor two]

It's a known fact that the strike was the best thing that ever happened to Aussie aviation. It reset the reality check machine perfectly.

A bunch of ego driven and highly underworked pilots who were being paid fairly at the time wanted to try and hold a nation to ransom. They got slapped in the face, kicked in the rear end and, 19 years on, still have not come to terms with the humiliation of their shameful loss.

For all those who post on here saying that their phones were bugged and they were followed by men in dark coats and suglasses. It never happened. That's just the paranoia which comes from drinking too much and spending too many hours alone dwelling on the past.

In fact, the broom needs a good push through the industry again to collect the rubbish it missed back in '89.

[Tidbinbilla]

Well, I think we can see where this is heading.:*