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Rollingthunder
22nd Aug 2008, 22:06
2 million in US prisons. Several hundred thousand in UK prisons etc etc.

The only thing they learn in prison is how to be better criminals. In the US they weight lift and get all pumped up to be more intimidating upon release - if they get released.

Not the way to go. Here's a solution albeit bound to be contentious.

Six felony convictions earn an automatic, swift death sentance. No 18 years of appeals, just removal from the gene pool.

This policy might actually act as a deterent to chronic offenders who think proper behaviour in civilized society is not applicable to them and think predatory behaviour is just fine.

I'm being generous with the number six - if they reach that number it can be assumed that they will never be rehabilitated and would continue to re-offend through their sad lives.

Instead of injection termination I would favour beheading. Block - wood and cheap. Axe - rusty and fairly cheap. Pike for mounting purposes - cheap and intimidating.

Parapunter
22nd Aug 2008, 22:12
You are of course wrong. Murders don't stop where the death sentence is the penalty.

You could of course change the penal regime, but then that doesn't win votes, so why piss in the wind?

con-pilot
22nd Aug 2008, 22:45
In the US they weight lift and get all pumped up to be more intimidating upon release - if they get released.

When I was with the DOJ all weight lifting equiptment were removed from all Federal Prisons. Reason was that some of the inmates spent all day building up their bodies to a state where they could break any normal restraints such as handcuffs. Even so, some of the prisoners were very intimidating build/size wise.

As far as I know most State Prisons still have weight lifting equiptment available to the inmates.

The rest of your ideas do have merit. ;)

Rightbase
23rd Aug 2008, 23:29
Murders don't stop where the death sentence is the penalty.

Parapunter, the death sentence doesn't stop murders - to do that it would have to be applied in advance of the crime.

But it does stop murderers.

The real argument against it is the possibility of miscarriage of justice.

And the argument for it is the poor value for money of the alternatives.

As in so many walks of life, prevention is by far preferable to any cure. The trouble (IMHO) is our prevention strategies don't start early enough. To be effective they have to be applied in advance of the crime.

Parapunter
23rd Aug 2008, 23:35
And you prevent a murder how? The argument is circular. At the point of arrest, the murderer is by definition prevented from murdering again.

What the death sentence fails to deter is murders by as yet undetected or apprehended murderers.

What I'm saying is that the death sentence is portrayed to society as a deterrent to those considering or bent on the commision of acts that would incur it, but it fails to do so wherever it is enacted, both in the west and the east. It is bankrupt as both a civilising and controlling concept. The only benefit it gives society is fiscal & even that is questionable, given that mosty western societies now build in lengthy (in years) appeals procedures involving hundreds of hours of court, lawyer & judicial involvement.

Penal reform in the west is unenlightened. No votes in gaol that's for sure.

tinpis
23rd Aug 2008, 23:49
This lot were just misunderstood,right?
Offenders on Death Row (http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm)

Parapunter
23rd Aug 2008, 23:56
Silly old git. They weren't deterred from murdering inspite of where it placed them were they Tinpis? QED.

tinpis
24th Aug 2008, 00:05
They be deterred now though :hmm:

G-CPTN
24th Aug 2008, 00:06
There's some pretty dumb behaviour among that lot (though I doubt whether the full account has been recorded).

Parapunter
24th Aug 2008, 00:10
No! They be prevented!! The law remains innefectual since it failed to deter the original offence.

I looked through a few of those. One guy ordered pizza, the delivery turned up & the guy demanded money with a baseball bat for motivation. The victim said she had no money, so he killed her with the bat, robbed her and stole her car.

He's ordered pizza, so the pizza joint has his number and address & likely his name. Some people, there is no amount of legislation that will save their souls.

tinpis
24th Aug 2008, 00:14
The pizza is shite in Darwhine as well. :uhoh:

BlueWolf
24th Aug 2008, 00:24
We will never get rid of the criminal element. In many ways it is an inherent part of the human psyche, and in some ways it's even desirable.

People who break the rules are often the same people who make new discoveries. People who act with violence can also be those who protect others. Thieves and robbers are the lowest enactment of the human survival instinct, which is to take for oneself that which one perceives one needs. Breeding these base tendencies out of the gene pool would very probably be counterproductive in the long term.

So how to deal with society's offenders? As always, there are two paths which must be followed, in parallel. One is the long-term education of children, parents, teachers, employers, employees, citizens, and voters, in the higher ideals and better niceties of civilised and responsible behaviour. I don't hold out much hope for this method. It's never worked anywhere yet, nice idea though it seems.

The other is the effective punishment of existing offenders. We can make jail an unpleasant place to be, so they don't want to come back; cold concrete cells, slops buckets, bread and water with plenty of hard labour, etc., rather than the underfloor heating and plasma TVs they enjoy today.

Deterrence doesn't work, other than perhaps with reference to the above. Few and far between are those who are genuinely able to learn from the experiences of others. Coupled with that is the reality that the most heinous of crimes are often committed by people who are not of sound mind, at least for the period incorporating the contemplation and commission of the crime. Low-level deterrence, against small-scale offending, by people who are able to think rationally, may be effective, but I would posit that beyond traffic fines for speeding and the like, there is no such thing as effective deterrence.

Capital punishment certainly doesn't work, either as a deterrent or as a preventative. It may relieve our feelings, and give society a sense of justice and closure, and there are undoubtedly many people who did and do deserve it, because of these. And there are those in society whose actions, through political or financial corruption, the purveyors of mass poisons, global lies, and scientific untruths, I would contend deserve the same fate as that dispensed to the rapists and the murderers, but who will never face trial.

In either regard, of course, we still have to make sure we have the right person; and I suspect, that at least as often as not, we don't.

Police officers do lie in Court. Often. So do lawyers. Judges give greater emphasis to evidence which best suits their own preconceptions. The system, as anyone who has ever been involved with it can tell you, is far more interested in getting a result, than it is in determining actual guilt from actual innocence. Young and evolving sciences such as DNA analysis are afforded credence far beyond the realities of their ability to provide absolute answers; and jurors, being ordinary people, are simply too thick, and too indoctrinated by the media, to be able to sort truth from fiction, in amongst all this.

All in all, I think we're bu&&ered, really.
:)

tinpis
24th Aug 2008, 00:24
Oh,sorry parapunter I see what you mean
A group hug and a rousing singalong of KUM... BA... YAH and all those lovely folks would not be in the slammer?

Erm...have you ever visited the USA? Texas? Galveston? Loosianna? :uhoh:

Parapunter
24th Aug 2008, 00:24
No state would ever admit to supporting the death penno as retribution although that's nearly always what it is.

Instead we get the line that it's pour encourager les autres... only it doesn't - never does.

Ian Brady is a great example of how harsh a grinding life sentence is far more retributive than a death sentence... All his whining, threatening & pleading for death exemplifies it.

I would argue that if you take a life in horrific circumstances then 40 years rotting in a crushing regime is far more of a punishment than five minutes of terror on the gallows. Either way, you'll have to answer to your maker at the end & you'd better have a good excuse.

Cron
24th Aug 2008, 00:50
Could we view this on an economic basis?

Six strikes and you are out - seems fair. One's criminal tendencies at that point are proven.

However in removing said from gene pool we lose some talent (Bluewolf).

Well, could not the money saved by not having to incarcerate long term be invested in the reeducation of the up and coming young criminal to tease out and amplify those talents?

Regards

Cron

fitliker
24th Aug 2008, 02:05
Why have any prisons at all if deterence does not work ?
No need for any jails as what is the point if the jails cannot be of any deterence value.

The real reason that some want to keep murderers and thugs alive in jail is in case of another Irish uprising .Then they can put them in Black and Tan uniforms and send them over to rape and murder the irish population into submission:}

BlueDiamond
24th Aug 2008, 02:20
The only thing they learn in prison is how to be better criminals.
Given the large numbers of repeat offenders to be found in most prisons, I would have to dispute that theory, Rollie. If they learned to be better at their chosen career, they wouldn't keep being caught.

Rollingthunder
24th Aug 2008, 02:44
Well, generally speaking most are as bright as a bag of hammers. Any learning process is slow and incremental.

Overdrive
24th Aug 2008, 06:56
People who break the rules are often the same people who make new discoveries.



So that's why the damned things are so unreliable.

merlinxx
24th Aug 2008, 07:40
Hi folks, just Google the following for a a few ideas & a good giggle......

'Sheriff Joe is at it again'

Metro man
24th Aug 2008, 07:41
Why would you want to leave a British prison anyway ? Cable TV, Playstations, rules favouring the prisoners, better food than the NHS. At least security costs can be brought down as conditions inside are now so comfortable that prisoners won't even escape when presented with the opportunity.

Now on the other hand if they lived on bread and water and spent their time breaking rocks ..........

AMF
24th Aug 2008, 08:14
Metro man Why would you want to leave a British prison anyway ? Cable TV, Playstations, rules favouring the prisoners, better food than the NHS. At least security costs can be brought down as conditions inside are now so comfortable that prisoners won't even escape when presented with the opportunity.


I'm deterred from going to prison in England because no matter what I did I'd probably earn a life sentence for contempt of court for not being able to resist entering a plea of "Not Guilty, Grandma, and thanks for the $10 in my birthday card" to the gray-wigged man who's in charge of my fate, and that would be unbearable since British prison cable TV probably carries nothing but endless Cricket and soccer and I'd wind up killing someone for a cup of coffee instead of tea.

obgraham
24th Aug 2008, 08:34
'Sheriff Joe is at it again'I think Sheriff Joe could easily be elected President. Guy's got more common sense than any public figure I know.

Nothing wrong with chain gangs, pink outfits, and baloney sandwiches. Even the perps love him!

OFSO
24th Aug 2008, 19:08
I didn't like illegal immigrants either, until I learned about Sam Williams.

Three years ago Islington Council in London gave a contract out to a private firm Q--- to supply "carers" to the poor and elderly in Islington, London. The firm hired the cheapest workers they could get, illegal immigrants from Africa. In contrast to what you might think, nearly all of these were excellent - something to do with traditions of respect and care for the elderly prevelent in their home country. They grew to be loved in the London community, working long hours for peanuts.

In September 2007 this firm Q--- was raided. Someone there was tipped off that the raid was about to take place, and the majority of workers destroyed their documents so couldn't be categorised as illegal immigrants; however one of the more innocent ones, Sam Williams (his real name) didn't do this. Despite having been in continuous employment in England for 12 years and always paid his National Insurance contributions and income tax, he was arrested.

He was shifted to Wood Green and Milton Keynes and Dover and other prisons while relatives, friends and some of the old people in I---ton tried to keep up with where he was while his case was investigated.

He came up for a hearing at the Immigration Appeals Authority, Taylor House, Roseberry Avenue, London,to determine his status in England in April 2008, but his lawyer never turned up (pro bono work doesn't earn as much as a fee-paying client, right ?) so Sam Williams was sent back to prison as an illegal alien, status to be determined.

AND THAT'S WHERE HE STILL IS TODAY, NEARLY A YEAR AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED.

So he's lost his job - not paying income tax or NI any more of course - lost his flat - all his possessions got nicked - not looking after the old folk, and the taxpayer so far has forked out for 12 months board and lodging.

Wonder why the prisons are overcrowded ? That's why.