Inflight Rationing

[fingureof8]

I have been hearing strong rumours that crews, while deployed on a JPA type FSI will now be accountable for their own in flight.
By this I mean you get your rates issued (Capped actuals!), but now the fun police want crews to pay for inflight rationing out of their rates, essentially out of their own pockets.:mad:

I have to ask is this sensible? Please discuss.

[xert]

OMG, Is it just me or are the RAF trying to make operating away from base as hard as possible!

Whilst deployed away from base I have enough to worry about without adding receipts, buying my own meals for flying and not going over the ever-shrinking rate.

Anyway, I might lose a bit of weight on those long flights where I didn't get a chance to pop to the Tesco before flying (just give me a nudge at TOD incase my energy levels have dropped so low that staying awake and alert becomes difficult) :zzz:

[Arty Fufkin]

What the F:mad: over? Rumours from where?:*

[airwaverider]

All true!!!

[The Gorilla]

Would this be an 8 Sqn south rumour?:rolleyes:

[Arty Fufkin]

Well, it will be interesting to see this enforced. I suppose the normal Daily subsistence will run from crew in rather from after landing, therefore a 3 1/2 her MCT sortie outof brize will earn a full day's rate. likewise, nightstop at destination 7 hrs away with 16hrs on the ground = 30 hrs chock to chock therefore 2 days actuals to get through rather than one. Which bunch of idiots thought this one through? Personaly, I quite like Pax meals anyway.

Arty Out.

[KeepItTidy]

another wind up , good try though

you really think in this time and moment with people of all trades leaving especially aircrew are going to accept this , its another I heard the Jengo mention it blah blah , get a life and stop ******* about spreading rumours ballbag :=

[Tilt and Gain]

Surely this forum is all about spreading rumours. The clue is in the forum name…

Don’t listen to KeepItTidy - keep the unsubstantiated twaddle coming.

[Airborne Aircrew]

<Sigh> There was a time we partied on Aircrew rations..

This is one of those occasions where I'm pleased I'm getting older... I remember when here were, actually, good times... :ok:

[Arty Fufkin]

Rates in proprtion to ground time? A bit like Breakfst Lunch and Dinner rates, as were in place until about ......2 years ago when JPA occured? The answer would be to not draw money from the FSI, buy your own food etc then claim it all back on a regular JPA expenses claim IAW JSP 752 which mentions nothing about reduced ground time (>5hrs in one location= a full days entitlement.) All a load of old b:mad:ox and one more reason to work for someone else. IMHO..

[FFP]

It's what the USAF do apparently.........

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As Ascoteer's do and always have done there is a way round this.........:ok:

[spanners123]

Have you never heard of CILOR?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Yes...................................:hmm:

[zedder]

He's the Baddie in Heroes isn't he.;)

[Redcarpet]

How about making the in-flight edible/ healthy before they consider this. Having said that I have heard that a bratty and chips does contain all the major food groups ;).

[xert]

KeepItTidy,

Just because YOU have not heard anything about it or YOU don't beleive it doesn't mean it is "Made-up B:mad:Ks"!!!!

I agree with you in that it would just hammer another nail into the Retension coffin, but you must know by now that saving a few thousand pounds in a FY gets people promoted, whilst there is no measure of how much losing even more experienced aircrew costs!

The "they wouldn't dare" attitude is naive.

[sikeano]

Some one is touchy here.
Xert, looks like you need a nudge not only at TOD, but on ground too.
Keepittidy, is perfectly entitled to his opinion as much as you are

I never joined RAF for the food, how things have changed :ugh:

[AYTCH]

All I hear makes me sooo glad I left in July !!! Why do penny pinchers insist on doing things that just add to the list of push-factors; when the list gets long enough valuable assets of all trades take the jump to civvy street meaning those left behind just have to work that bit harder. :ugh: I truly hoped things would get better for those I left behind (and not just by my leaving!!) but when rumours like this frequently get substantiated it makes me very sad. :{

[BEagle]

The idiot bean counters should always remember that, if you pay for something you become a 'customer' and, as such, have Customer Rights....

Whilst it might perhaps not be unreasonable to examine the scale of in-flight rationing (I never did understand why I was entitled to a meal when flying from 1400-1800 in the UK, for example), to expect people to pay may have flight safety repercussions. For example, the person who decides that he/she won't pay and chooses to starve (less of a problem in the days before the gel-haired gym-queens invented fitness tests) - or the person who decides to bring his/her own food which hasn't been prepared in an 'aircraft catering' kitchen - and goes down with the Turkish two-step for the whole flight.

It really isn't worth the effort of these silly sods buggering about with in-flight rations - all it will do is to cause resentment.

One pilot PVR-ing early costs £M to replace - how many ACCs or S1 boxes would that buy?

Why don't your so-called leaders (I can say that these days without fear of retribution now Daisy, you ar$e) tell these penny-pinching f*ckwits to do one?

[VinRouge]

Its not this one case individuality that forces chaps to leave, its the sum of not getting paid correctly, not getting paid at all, moves from rates, complete disregard of a flight safety system to scrimp on a few pennies by insisting crews count every penny on receipts when they should be monitoring fuel quantities/weather/flight systems etc... Dont Laugh, i saw it happen. Why bother when you can Pi$$ off to virgin/BA/Netjets, actually get paid your allowances instead of being treated like a criminal and expected to keep receipts for 2 years to prove your innocence. Thats before we get into the ice cream boys nicking ascot chaps for investigations that have no basis in fact whatsoever.

If they wanted to amend the in flight catering arrangements, how about adding flexibility instead? For example, if the co/alm could provide scran within their crew duty day to the crews desire, even if its Lobster Thermador from M&S, at a lower cost than the local arrangements (not hard having seen some of the bills incurred), then it should be up to the crews discretion to do so. Instead of FSI/FCIs which wont allow you to buy food at the BX on GPC for the crew...

I personally wont be going flying if I cannot say I have been propery sustained and I certainly wont be doing it out my own pocket... I would be interested to see how many cancelled flights due to flight safety it would take before the old system would be brought back...

Or, how about CAS/CDS sacks their personal chef to make up the difference? In other words, how about the brass start to take a hit on their allowances as well? Not a chance... :ugh::ugh:

[dallas]

VinRouge,

Accepting the relation between blood sugar levels and energy/alertness, and the undoubted need for pilots to be well-nourished chaps, why do you think crews should be exempt from paying for food on duty, when everyone else now has to pay? Or put another way, if in-flight food continues to be provided for free, should this be in place of rates/actuals at destination?

I don't agree with the alleged proposals, just interested in why you think that paying for food is such a trauma?

[Arty Fufkin]

Presumably the same rules will apply to passengers as well as crew. In that case are we going to go down the Easyjet/ Ryan air route of charging passengers for their inflight meals? £2.25 for yor inflight meal (payable cash only) plus £1.25 for a cup of tea? I would be very interested to see how that is recieved by our troops.

[VinRouge]

just have to munch PAX inflight instead then...

[Arty Fufkin]

That stuff will kill you.

[R 21]

At a secret Oxon SH base the FSI and actuals is rearing its head again. OC Accounts is on a mission to see the problems in a muti sector leg through various countries. Surely all stations who use FSI (mainly RAF as I believe the Army don't do it) need to get together to put forward a sensible and well argued case.

[fingureof8]

There are a few points for contention on this rumoured new system.

1. If your pilot / pilots decide they want to rate save, to eat in a restuarant when you land, rather than spending the rate in a Wallmart to eat crap in the cockpit, how would you feel having them at the controls after a long day whilst landing in poor conditions?

2. Rates are not enough for individuals to go along to airport servicing and purshase food, as we all know that is mega money. So now your forced either to have a crew wip around or go down to the local market and buy the food your self.

This point raises a few concerns -
Crew duty / crew rest
Health and hygeine (food prep / storage etc)
Nutrition

3. Along with all the normal concerns of flying you now, potentially, have a jet full of aircrew worrying about reciepts for flying rations etc etc, when their minds ought to be else where.

4. I have never seen a BA / Virgin mate poping down to wallmart on the morning of thier flight to buy milk, tea and a meal for their trip???:=


I know the amount we got for flying rations was probably excessive, when rationing away from an airport caterer (but not when forced down that route), but you have to ask is this rumoured new method conducive with flight saftey?

Once again I am not trying to get peoples backs up, I am just interested in points of views. Ready to recieve FLAK:E

[dallas]

OC Accounts is on a mission to see the problems in a muti sector leg through various countries.
Sounds like a tough mission, which I'm sure will result in a sympathetic, but ultimately non-policy changing result.

While I think the halcyon days of freebies for everyone are over (unless you're a MP), in our current economic climate, how about:

1. Flat rate of $30 a night anywhere in the world as a tax-free allowance. Some places you win, others you will lose. One form accounting for the cash, and in these days of international cash cards, you either spend the $ because its the default currency, or get the local dinero from an ATM.

2. As well as the user being in a neutral position with regards to income tax, the reduction in multiple layers of bureaucracy, writing policy, adminners taking 'fact-finding visits' to multiple countries to 'check allowance levels', countless levels of accounting at home base in multiple currencies, and the much despised auditors could all be at very least curtailed, if not disestablished. Voila - long term savings and valuable aircrew happy. Budgets can be planned and distraction to crews minimised.

It's gobsmacking that common sense has yet to prevail, especially at the cost of so many negatives for the way we currently operate.

Oh, and one more thing - if we do decide on a new policy, whatever it might be - freeze any attempt to change it for at least 10 years! All we seem to do is re-invent the allowances wheel and waste even more doing so, ending up back at a position we were in 5 years ago!

[Saintsman]

I remember a VC captain refusing to take an aircraft full of passengers because there was no lemon for his tea.

My has times changed...

[Arty Fufkin]

Dallas, on $30 a night you would lose everywhere. Bar the amount, the principle however is sound, lets call it .........Rates!

PS Foghorn, should guys have to fork out for their Rat Packs when on ops / ex's? A litttle flippant of me perhaps, but where should the line be drawn?

[glad rag]

About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force :eek:

[FJJP]

Sigh....

Remember the days of tins of soup and choccy bars accumulating in the flying clothing locker???

[Shackman]

Once again, another case of trying to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator ( Glad Rag's "About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force ") instead of fighting to bring everyone UP to what should be available without question . When the GF lost the entitlement to rations it wasn't just the GF fighting the battle - many people higher up also tried to get the decision rescinded but the bean counters (and no doubt someone's promotion) won.

Equally it's not just 2 Gp - In flight rations can be a godsend, whether a honkers stew after 10 hours and still 'way up north' and another 6 hours to go, or a choccie bar and an orange juice half way through a 7 hour stint on SH. It keeps you alert - if nothing else trying not to drop food down the flying suit - and I know when I'm travelling cattle class I'd rather have a flight crew eating at regular intervals than one under aroused when it comes to landing or perhaps in a potentially hostile environment. Remember the crew started working well before take off time - not just when the wheels leave the ground. Equally, I'd rather have a guard force properly fed and watered concentrating on the job at hand rather than trying to make sense of a budget/JPA/etc. If the GF make an error it might just be a barrier on your car instead of going up - or it could be missing the intruder with evil intent. Aircrew make just one error and it could be a big hole.


Sorry - rant over.

'Distractions' anyone?

[sikeano]

I remember that :ok:
And we used to swap them

[dallas]

Once again, another case of trying to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator ( Glad Rag's "About time the elite were brought down to the level of the station guard force ") instead of fighting to bring everyone UP to what should be available without question . When the GF lost the entitlement to rations it wasn't just the GF fighting the battle - many people higher up also tried to get the decision rescinded but the bean counters (and no doubt someone's promotion) won.

Equally it's not just 2 Gp - In flight rations can be a godsend, whether a honkers stew after 10 hours and still 'way up north' and another 6 hours to go, or a choccie bar and an orange juice half way through a 7 hour stint on SH. It keeps you alert - if nothing else trying not to drop food down the flying suit - and I know when I'm travelling cattle class I'd rather have a flight crew eating at regular intervals than one under aroused when it comes to landing or perhaps in a potentially hostile environment. Remember the crew started working well before take off time - not just when the wheels leave the ground. Equally, I'd rather have a guard force properly fed and watered concentrating on the job at hand rather than trying to make sense of a budget/JPA/etc. If the GF make an error it might just be a barrier on your car instead of going up - or it could be missing the intruder with evil intent. Aircrew make just one error and it could be a big hole.


Sorry - rant over.

'Distractions' anyone?
No problem with the 'food is a good idea' bit, but still interested in VinRouge "certainly [not] doing it out my [his] pocket". Conceptually, why is there such horror at having to, God forbid, pay for something you're currently getting for free?

And using the 'aircrew need food to stay alert' argument, should the state should be providing train drivers with rations?

[VinRouge]

So why dont we get squaddies to pay for their own ammo then?

Heck, why not get the crews to pay for the fuel bearing in mind its got so expensive recently?

All these measures can be reduced to their lowest common denominator; that being pay cuts in disguise. :suspect:

How many Underground/train workers pull 24 hour shifts? Since when have I been trained to prepare a meal which will be fit for human consumption, having brought it in from home, unrefrigerated in a warm car, then partially refrigerated it for up to 22 hours prior to consumption? Not as if I can 'pull over' for my lunch break at the nearest siding is it?

If you have ever paid for inflight in weird and wacky countries, which, I am guessing from your replies you haven't, you will realize the bill can sometimes be in hundreds of dollars per crew member. If you expect us to go down to the local deli and buy a slice of festering zebra for our inflight, don't be surprised when we start to get crews with serous illness halfway through a 10 hour flight.

Once again, cracking idea if you are an admin blunty looking for a promotion, crap idea if you are aircrew trying to get on with the job.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

VinRouge,

Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Fog

Take your blunt arse to the middle east and have a look at the working hours the 2 Gp crews are putting in ................................ muppet :ugh:

[dallas]

So why dont we get squaddies to pay for their own ammo then?
Because this is equipment? Albeit C-class stores!

Heck, why not get the crews to pay for the fuel bearing in mind its got so expensive recently?
I don't think anyone is suggesting you pay a penny towards the cost of the mission, apart from perhaps making a nominal contribution to the cost of the food you eat, which everyone else in the world has to do, and which you're saving by not eating at home.

All these measures can be reduced to their lowest common denominator; that being pay cuts in disguise. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gif
Which, frankly, reinforces my suspicion that you're not so much arsed about blood sugar levels, so much as losing the perk of not paying for any food.

How many Underground/train workers pull 24 hour shifts? Since when have I been trained to prepare a meal which will be fit for human consumption, having brought it in from home, unrefrigerated in a warm car, then partially refrigerated it for up to 22 hours prior to consumption? Not as if I can 'pull over' for my lunch break at the nearest siding is it?
I don't think anyone is talking about ripping out the food preparation equipment from the jets, and if 'pulling over' is a problem, how on earth do you manage now? To reiterate, I'm not at all querying your need for food on a long flight, I'm just struck by your defence which seems little to do with flight safety and more to do with defending your ancient rights to saving some cash!

If you have ever paid for inflight in weird and wacky countries, which, I am guessing from your replies you haven't, you will realize the bill can sometimes be in hundreds of dollars per crew member. If you expect us to go down to the local deli and buy a slice of festering zebra for our inflight, don't be surprised when we start to get crews with serous illness halfway through a 10 hour flight.
I've been on a few routes - one, coming back from the US, saw us self cater. The loadie spent an astronomical amount on supermarket food, most of which ended up being binned or went to the groundcrew on return (ie. 3.5 of the 5 slabs of pop). I've also seen crews comfortably over cater for relatively short legs because there's no incentive or interest in monitoring the cost. I'm not saying something like the XY bills that people paid against local fuel bills in Germany would work, but abject waste isn't the future.

Once again, cracking idea if you are an admin blunty looking for a promotion, crap idea if you are aircrew trying to get on with the job
Paying for the food you eat shoudln't interfere with landings and take-offs, and it's a tired defence in the face of any sort of belt-tightening or reform.

Just to reiterate, I very much resent the beancounters undermining the job, but 'we've always done it that way' doesn't mean you pick and choose which aspects of the 21st century you want to embrace. The RAF is broke - to some degree it's our own doing too - but 'freebies' are a thing of the past. So far your argument has had little to do with operating aircraft safely and more to do with you defending yourself from spending your wages on the food you eat.

[k1rb5]

Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?

Foghorn,

Part of me thinks your comment is not worthy of a response but the more generous side of my nature is thinking that you must just be a little naive.

The answer to your Q. is: Every time somebody needs to be brought back to UK for urgent medical treatment to a life threatening injury/illness and an augmented crew is authorized to facilitate it.

If you weren't so naive, you'd know that many people owe their lives to 2 Gp crews doing this. Maybe one day you'll need such a '24 hour shift'. :mad:

[VinRouge]

OK dallas, I will have to spell this out using really small words for you... your experiences of flitting off to the states on jaunts of fancy spending a fortune are long gone. As an ascot operator, I have not had a westbound route in three years. I have operated to 5 airfields which were not in the AOR in the past 4. It very much sounds like you havent been around the pointy end for some while now.

You haven't explained how crew members, often tasked at short notice for compassionate and medevac taskings, sometimes authed to 24 hour augmented crew duty ops, are supposed to prepare a safe foodstuff to take with them for the flight. Callout at 2 AM, where are they supposed to by their food from, and safely? You cant. I cant guarantee the sandwiches Mrs Vin Rouge prepared at home are safe to consume, once they have spent an age in the heat on the way to work and then refrigirated, and neither can you. Inflight, on long-duration trips IS a cost of the mission! As I have said above, it is necessary to have correctly prepared and refrigerated food available to the crew, unless you want your pilots going down with Delhi belly half way home from Nairobi. Where do you suggest we get our inflight from there? Or how about Kabul? Baku? Although the HLRs are getting smaller, I would still prefer to eat this than some crap from Cris Kebabs in akrotiri. Get real, are you really expecting three man flightdecks to prepare a full meal for themselves during a hectic crew duty day? Dont you think they are busy doing other stuff, like operating? How about the guys in theatre that are operating upwards of 8 sectors per day, typically engines-running half of it? How are they supposed to eat unless inflight is provided?

You mention the supermarket sweep. There are numerous regs which do not allow this to take place unless inflight cannot be provided at the airport. Have you seen the price of crew inflight at airports? I am guessing you havent. It often costs as I have said before, upswards of $200 per crew member, and I aint talking about lobster thermador. I am talking about a few kebab skewers and a chicken curry. Its often much cheaper to grab what you can at the supermarket, even in your limited experience that this is not the case. I bet what they bought in supermarket, whilst that could be considered excessive by yourself (ever heard of a crew duty extention or airbourne retask?) would have still cost less than a single lay-up from a big international.

I suggest we have enough on our minds, fatigue is one of the biggest enemies we face at the mo, degrading performance further often at the most critical stage, at the far end of extended crew duty days. I cant believe we are even having this argument. And as I have said before, unless it was a medivac/comp A, I have no qualms of refusing to fly if im not in a fit state to do so. feeling hungry is well covered by 550, I plan to stick to the regs like glue if they force this in.

[c130jbloke]

The Army marches on its stomach, so what is the problem with the aircrew types having rations ?

The whole in-flt ration was looked at carefullly in 2004 (?) and was then IMHO reduced to the minimum. Whatever cretin thought this one up really needs to be aware of just how difficult uploading rations can be at stupid o'clock in the middle of nowhere.

As for rations from WalMart, bring it on. I used to love sweeping for rations there; you get what you want and at a fraction of the price of airport catering, thus saving a few quid.

This is a really bad idea and should the excuse be that this is what the spams do, then somebody really needs to be put straight. I would love to be there the next time a 3/4 * goes for a famil ride with no prospect of a meal :eek:

C130JB

[Lord Elpus]

Foghorn, you really need to get your blunt @rse out east a lot more!!!!

Crews are regularly doing 20+ hours in a crew duty period, albeit augmented. Many crews are being pinged for short notice CCAST casevac. In those cases, the crews crack on with it, no whinging, as it could be the difference between someone having their limbs saved or not, or possibly a whole lot worse for the casualty!!

Your comments are somewhat unreasonable!

[dallas]

VinRouge

You've done it again! Deliberately avoided the point I keep trying to make, in favour of extreme tales of derring do. So let me make what I'm saying clear: load the fcuking plane full of ready meals and in between take-off and landing, do nothing but eat.

Then pay a nominal amount for doing so.

[SVK]

How about the fact that I've already paid for my food once?

Its sitting there in my fridge rotting because I've just been given another short notice call out - and before you quip, the last two times it happened I was away for 1wk and 5wks respectively.

[VinRouge]

Dallas, I think you will find I pay my full mess subscription, but if I am warned away for less than three days, I still get the pleasure of paying for the food. So are you suggesting I pay twice? :hmm:

Before you go on about daring do, I think you will find out that what I describe is the modus operandi for most ascot crews these days, who are busting their guts (pardon the pun) to get the job done. Its not all states routes with the odd dotted sandy det thrown in any more. This will be seen by all at the receiving end as another insult to the work they put in...

And in answer to what you have said before, I dont pay for the fuel, so why I pay for something that is just as necessary for flight, ie fuel for the crew? Does anyone else pay for food in theatre? All you would do is punish the hardest working crews whilst those that arent deploying through illness or on holiday wouldnt have any additional costs! Hardly inspiring or realistic is it, nor an incentive to work. Having to pay to go to work!

[FJJP]

How about we do it EU-style? 4 x F104s lob in to refuel and lunch, parked on the orp. Chatting to the lead [Sqn Cdr, nice chap] who was leaning against the fuselage, whilst the refueller hose had a fine spray of HM best Avtur from the connection. Trouble is, said leader was smoking a Galloise at the time....

His No 2 was having lunch - some sort of stuffed roll and half bottle of wine.

40 mins later, oft they popped to tear around the LL before RTB...

[dessert_flyer]

Before everybody gets too hot under the collar, is this really going to happen?? i havent seen it written down anywhere yet, and until then i would suggest that all of this is pure speculation, (which is what this forum is for).
If it is indeed true or being given some thought, i think the practicalities of this need to be thought through long and hard. It is true that our cousins from across the pond have paid for their rations, however, every usaf base is set up for this and offer a variety of meals/snacks through there in flight system for them to choose from. Now can you imagine this being the case at our bases where the turnover is far less.
Also if you do get a meal, that you pay for, who is going to cook it? the alm/steward?? What if they for whatever reason burn that particular meal, are they going to have to pay you back for the cost of that meal?? there wont be anything spare as all of it is individually paid for. Are the pax going to pay for their meals, they are on duty just as the flight deck crew are, who will collect the money for this meal??
Problems would raise there heads significantly, and lots of thinking needs to be done

[serf]

How do you ensure that the food is 'safe' in your down route 5* hotel?

[dallas]

Hardly inspiring or realistic is it, nor an incentive to work. Having to pay to go to work!
Like everyone else in the real world has to do?

I actually think these plans are extremely flawed and there are lots of reasons to keep things the way they are. What inspired me to lock horns with you was your reflex '...it won't be coming out of my pocket', only later shored up with extreme examples of a CDD.

I also like the way you try and undermine my position by accusing me of being a blunty, because operators don't do accountability, do they? I'm not going to hint at what I do, as that defeats the point of this anonymous forum, but - and I know you might struggle to understand this - myself and many others 'pay to go to work' every day, while battling to ensure your task runs to plan. Some days I know you're working very hard, just as I am, but protecting your pocket shouldn't be the primary reason not to review inflight procedures - your original reply made it clear to me that it was yours.

Feel free to come back with something that misses the point again, if you wish. As of now I'm going to stop replying as we're not getting anywhere, except to finish by suggesting you avoid, if questioned, mentioning your pocket at the top of your reasons to rule out change. :ok:

[VinRouge]

Sorry Dallas, I wasnt accusing you of being a blunty. I am sure you are far from the blunt end. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one! :ok:

[9.81m/s/s]

Train drivers being rationed by the govt? Last time I travelled by train I don't think the driver was augmenting to bring a half dead youngster back from Paddington to Waverley Street whilst running a full DAS checklist, popping off a few flares to distract the SA-7 launch from Birmingham New Street and then ' landing ' his train, somewhat knackered in a parking slot marked ' motorcycles only ' .

There really are some fcukwits on here !!!!

[dallas]

Sorry Dallas, I wasnt accusing you of being a blunty. I am sure you are far from the blunt end. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Accepted, thank you. Equally, in this morning's spirit of goodwill, please be assured that I continue to have the utmost respect for you guys, working hard and getting it done.

[The Gorilla]

Oh do me a favour! What arrogance to assume that what you do is far more important than someone in the rail industry, some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee of reality.

Think about what would happen if not a single train ran for seven days and then compare that to what would happen if all our troops etc remained in barracks for seven days. Tell me which one would do the more damage to Team GB?

Firstly Train Drivers are Gods within their own empires just like aircraft captains. They have the right to say no in all operational matters concerning safety. But unlike said captains they frequently use it where necessary that’s why safety figures are on the increase on the railways.

Secondly the Drivers elite will not allow a gradual erosion of their safety unlike your masters are doing with you. But come on ladies and gents what do you expect? Those of you still serving know exactly what you are up against and be assured things are only going to get worse. Team GB has to find the funds to pay for Gordy’s 2012 medals from somewhere. The Treasury balancing figures have only one way to go just like house prices!

This catering erosion has been going on for years now, I remember a very heated Sgt’s mess emergency general meeting way back when the SGF had its rationing withdrawn. We voted to provided a monthly set sum to provide tea & coffee for them.

Since then I had been on many E3D Ops and Ex’s where the main mission statement was to cut as much off the expenses bill at the cost of quality training. I still can’t face eating Subway sarnies to this day! So it isn’t really a new concept is it? Just an extension off all that has gone before.

I wish you luck, there are just as many bean counters out here trying to cut costs as well. It’s just that blind obedience Dalek style has no concept where my grass grows. Regards to all that know me keep safe people.
TG

:D

[9.81m/s/s]

Oh so the train driver will get the call to go to Paddington not having the required pre route rest to drive for 24 hours whilst trying to avoid those who ARE DELIBERATELY trying to stop him in order to get a 19 year old on a life support machine back to Selly Oak ? We can feel precious, proud and a little arrogant about what we do otherwise we would all be doing it and be risking our lives - and I don't see too many queues outside the careers office these days !!!!!


***

[9.81m/s/s]

I agree it is bizarre - but who introduces train drivers in a forum about in-flight? NOT ME. And who says that we think we are better than others - NOT ME. The sentiment ( lost on Gorilla/Baboon ) is that in-flight is as much about flight safety for those who require a stimulus to stay alert on operational tasks as it is about just eating and getting fat !!!

For the record I don't consider my job any better or worse than anyone elses but I sure as hell know it is a lot more dangerous than a lot of others and so commensurate with a higher level of alertness required, it is absolutely f***in bizarre to say that if we are entitled to in flight then so should a train driver.


By the way after all this I am never getting on another train again.

CHOO F***IN CHOO !!! ;)

Ivor the engine pulled into the station - poor old Jones the steam had been shot up pretty bad by Tal Y Ban.....but it's ok.....he has a D-shaped to see him through............
:p

[k1rb5]

Foghorn

Could you just remind me of the last time 2 Gp aircrew 'pulled a 24hr shift'?

2 Gp are just getting airbourne for another 24Hr shift.

The crew were gathered together at very short notice and, thankfully, didn't have to worry about buying their rations on the way in!

The 10 wounded aeromed patients won't have to bring their own rations either. We've got that covered.

Man, you press my buttons :mad:

[Tricorn]

From the self-loading freight perspective - does this mean we are liable to lose our pink meat / white meat butties?:}.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...the coffee of reality...

Is that anything like the fizzy gravy of Gandhi's revenge? :}

[Sideshow Bob]

Foghorn,
Every Herrick jet that leaves the UK has a stand-by crew ready to augment it, just in case it delays long enough out of Brize to put it over normal crew duty, so as you can see, 24 hr days are no longer just used for medivac but for normal tasking into and out of the middle east. Sometimes it would be better if we could work as a team in the RAF instead of letting jealousy get the better of us and trying as hard as we can to take away something others need, (be it rations, better accommodation or rates), just because we don't qualify for it. In the end cost cutting like this only adds to peoples overall dissatisfaction, especially when other things like overstretch, lack of quality time at home and decreasing allowances are also taken into account. Is it any wonder that people are leaving at their option point, is it any wonder that most people believe it just isn't worth it anymore, is it any wonder we are suffering from a lack of experience. The people at the top need to take notice of what these measures are doing to moral, start standing up for, and looking after, their troops. After all is that not one of the reasons they are there in the first place.

[Arty Fufkin]

Wise words Sideshow Bob.

Bearing in mind that FSI's go onto capped actuals in 4 days time, any sign of rules as to what people are going to be able to claim for or how to use the new JPA FSI claimback proceedure? Didn't think so:ugh:!

I guess it's because the issue of cash on an FSI and actuals are fundamentaly incompatable, as the last two failed trials clearly demonstrated. It's not as though they have had 2 years to sort all this out is it?

Standing by to recieve the usual "haven't seen an imprest for years" rebuff.:rolleyes:

Arty F

[livenav]

Eventually wise words will out! WE are supposed to be a team rather than a bunch of Prima Donna's. Being jealous about what someone gets/doesn't get acheives nothing apart from being divisive. No matter where you are or what you do in todays Mil, the bean-counters are stuffing you. We should aspire to the best for all, not reduce all to the lowest level. And while nirvana may not be practical in these austere times small battles may be won -even if it only to keep things the same. As forthe thread - paying for food on a flight -duty meals WERE sacronsanct. We need to stop the rot rather than bitch because of what you don't get if you fly a desk. If you don't like your T&C's then you know where the door is -don't demand that everyone descends to your level.
ALL Mil aircrew are working pretty hard be they GR4 guys flying for far longer hours than the aircraft was designed to fly, to the rotary world living in squalor to support the troops, and to the 2Gp crews that bring in the beans and bullets and take home the damaged.