Philippine Air Lines A320 again in Runway excursion

[B747-800]

This time - and what's new? - A philippine Air Lines A320 made a RWY excursion in Mindanao after LDG.

What's happening to their A320 crews?

PAL plane partly skids off Shariff Kabunsuan runway - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view/20080820-155828/PAL-plane-partly-skids-off-Shariff-Kabunsuan-runway)

Seems to be the airport of Cotabato City.

PAL plane partly skids off Shariff Kabunsuan runway


By Edwin Fernandez
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 18:19:00 08/20/2008


COTABATO CITY—A Philippine Airlines Airbus A320 from Manila partly skidded off the runway after landing at the Awang airport in Shariff Kabunsuan province early afternoon Wednesday.
None of the plane's 80 passengers were injured although many of them were thrown into panic.
Major General Raymundo Ferrer, commander of the Army's 6th Infantry Division, said the plane which arrived at 2 p.m. was trying to turn around towards the tarmac area but its front tires slipped outside of the concrete runway and hit the soil.
This he said caused the plane to halt abruptly.
“The soil was quite soft so the tires got stuck," he said.
“We were surprised the plane suddenly stopped at the other end of the runway, then we were told to disembark,” a passenger said.
Ferrer said the incident could be due to pilot error.
"The way I look here, the pilot miscalculated the space as he was turning back the aircraft,” he said.
The airport's runway is shorter compared to other airports in Mindanao.

[SlamBam]

PAL-"It's All About Experience."

And what an experience that must have been.:rolleyes:

[stork]

CAPTAIN..

overbearing screaming eagle junior was part of the elite. handpicked from his class to teach in pal's prestigious flying school. after flying cross country to lingayen, he and the boys landed in omni one day with Q-tipped (bent) props. a new modification for their little Cessnas. blamed it on killer crosswinds blowing from the lingayen gulf they say. so from then on, it was forbidden for palav cessnas to land in that nice little airport.

now the soft spots in cotabato. will wonderboy be able to do the great escape again in cotabato? killer runways with soft spots are unsafe. lets see what retired avp training daddy a.k.a screaming eagle can do for junior this time.

FIRST OFFICER..

they all belong to A.O. 2000A.. all in the top 5 of the class.. tacloban.. butuan.. cotabato.. maybe something is terribly wrong. need i say more?

[John Holmes junior]

The latest score is PAL=3, BUPAK= ZERO.:8

[silver_streak]

PAL = 3 Bupak= 0

Pal should start auditing their training as most of the 3 incidents are human factor related. From what I gather in the 747 most of the line instructor are first time captain in the equipment...they should start putting experienced instructor in the wide body we don't want any incident in these big whale...If the selection of your instructor is based on Bata-Bata system...accident of human error are not far from reality...A well trained pilot is a safe pilot...If training is expensive then incident like this comes with a price ( reputation, inconvinience, downtime, grounding, airport closure, investigation, chismis...etc.). Though accident can be prevented (Prevention is better than Cure). Pal should start looking into training...There must be something missing or something is wrong...Just a friendly advise:ok:...Safety should be our utmost Concern.

[parsifal]

Is there a race/contest here? Is there a need to gloat at the misfortune of a fellow pilot? What a race we really are? Tsk.. tsk.

[Cessna1052]

Parsifal,

Nobody mentioned a feeling of happiness from what had happened. Nobody was gloating to their misfortune, if thats what you think. And was it misfortune? This Pilots were trained to do the right thing, would deviation from this set standards justify an UNEVENTFUL flight? or for this matter a TURN? I wouldnt personally say that they're unlucky, instead they have to accept ,that they were Wrong. An Airplane will not drive itself to something, but rather a Hand will bring it somewhere.

If John Holmes is scoring it 3 to none, thats because he has facts in hand(based in History). Maybe Cebupac safety standards is at best compared to PAL right now.

I suggest you read again the whole thread.


Enjoy gaining your time,

Cessna

[parsifal]

i have enough time already but still enjoying piling it, fyi. my point only is to be more kind in our remarks and not to be judgemental about what others had done. things like those could happen even to the best of us.

"none of us is better than all of us"

[John Holmes junior]

I never intended to gloat on other Pilot's misfortunes Parsifal...we all have bad days now and then.

I forgot to include the Unfortunate Bacolod overshoot it the 90's. So now the score is PAL=4, BUPAK = ZERO.

Let's all fly safe and MAY THE SCORE NEVER ADD UP.

[Cessna1052]

Parsifal,

The Pilots did the mistake, but definitely fingers arent pointed at them( in my personal opinion , of course). But then again, they're with Philippine Airlines where Pilot culture affect compliance of SOPs and company policies. And theres no way PAL will accept fault from what had happen.

We have to accept "bata-bata"still exist. Yourself is a kid of a Former PAL pilot, and the probability of you joining them in your Minimum time is most likely. Modesty aside you should accept this fact, for the truth is this is your hopeful thinking. So, dont be afraid to address your true feelings for such event. DONT try to be kind now, just because you like to appease them(PAL pilots reading this thread). It will not help you in your course to a successful career.

Do you know why such event can happen to the BEST of the BEST you mentioned? BECAUSE, of that One moment in time that they let down their guard and deviated from the SOPs and Policies.

Theres no Sharp Pilot, No Best Pilots around too, Only Standard Pilots and nothing more. If theres more than this, i have no idea what its called.


Cessna

[planestupid]

PAL.....hmmm lucky again! Not one fatality (good thing) which means nothing will change (bad thing). Although maybe LT is a bit sick of paying for pilot's mistakes??? Naaaa I'm sure he can afford it.

silver_streak and John Holmes junior.... you must still be young because it wasn't all that long ago that BUPAK killed 104 people on a side of Mount Sumagaya. You ask why?.... mechanical failure???? NOPE. Bupak CRM. So does that make it a even?

[John Holmes junior]

To Planestupid....Read the Title. It says 319/320 INCIDENTS.

[SKYHAWKER]

I do not see the numbers as a score but a trend. Trend of incidents is a good forecast for a Major Accident.

CebPac has established a "system" as a countermeasure regarding this trend with their hard lesson on flight 5J-387. By the way, the PF was an ex-PAL and this was the only accident of CebPac.

If the trend can not be corrected ASAP, I foresee a major disaster waiting to happen. This will add to their very very long list of accidents/incidents. (Ref: PAL Wikipedia)

Maybe they can afford this to happen for the reason that they can even afford to lose many of their best and experienced pilots up to now. I see them often around the Globe.

Somebody powerful enough must take action. Start with the people who are directly responsible but did not do anything to prevent it to happen as it happened again. Kicking ass right now is better than paying the direct and indirect cost of accident in the future.

No Offense!!!

[yowdude]

"The latest score is PAL=3, BUPAK= ZERO."
:= it can happen to anyone of us .

"Modesty aside, the most of us experienced ones have transferred out to other airlines."
:yuk:
and these incidents /accidents happened while you were there :

Flight Designation Date Aircraft Location Description Casualties[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines#cite_note-PAL_Incidents-58) N/A January 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_24), 1950 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Iloilo City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iloilo_City) The aircraft crashed en route to Mandurriao Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandurriao_Airport). Fatalities: 4 N/A March 30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_30), 1952 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Baguio City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguio_City)Loakan Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loakan_Airport), crashed upon takeoff Fatalities: 10 N/A January 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_14), 1954 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954) Douglas DC-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-6) Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) Crashed in Ciampino Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciampino_Airport) while attempting to land in heavy turbulence, which led to an engine fire. Fatalities: 16 PR S26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_S26&action=edit&redlink=1) November 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_23), 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila) Crashed in Mount Baco (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mount_Baco&action=edit&redlink=1) while en route to Manila due to poor weather conditions. Fatalities: 33 PR S85 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_S85&action=edit&redlink=1) December 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_22), 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Cebu City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebu_City)Mactan-Cebu International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mactan-Cebu_International_Airport) upon takeoff after a failure of the number one engine. Fatalities: 28 PR 984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_984&action=edit&redlink=1) March 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_2), 1963 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Davao City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davao_City) Crashed due to premature descent. Fatalities: 27 PR 946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_946&action=edit&redlink=1) February 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_21), 1964 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964)Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Marawi City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marawi_City) Crashed due to pilot error upon landing approach. Fatalities: 31 PR 785 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_785&action=edit&redlink=1) June 29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_29), 1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966) Douglas DC-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3) Sablayan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sablayan,_Occidental_Mindoro), Occidental Mindoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occidental_Mindoro)PR 345 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_345&action=edit&redlink=1) February 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28), 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967) Fokker F-27 Friendship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F27) Cebu City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebu_City) Crashed in Mactan-Cebu International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mactan-Cebu_International_Airport) during landing due to an aft center of gravity condition resulting from improper loading. Fatalities: 12 PR 385 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_385&action=edit&redlink=1) July 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_6), 1967 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967)Fokker F-27 Friendship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F27) Bacolod City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacolod_City) Crashed into a mountain. Fatalities: 21 PR 158 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philippine_Airlines_Flight_158&action=edit&redlink=1) September 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_12), 1969 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969) BAC One-Eleven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_One-Eleven) Antipolo City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipolo_City) Crashed short on a hill upon landing approach. Fatalities: 45 PR 215 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_215) April 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_21), 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970) Hawker Siddeley HS 748 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_HS_748) Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila) Crashed in Nichols Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichols_Field) after a bomb exploded in the rear cargo section. Fatalities: 36 PR 463 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_463) November 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_28), 1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972) Hawker Siddeley HS 748 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_HS_748) Bislig City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bislig_City) Bounced and swerved on landing. The nosegear, wings and propellers were severely damaged. None N/A February 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_3), 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975) Hawker Siddeley HS 748 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_HS_748) Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila)Nichols Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichols_Field) after a fire developed in the number two engine shortly after takeoff. It was also due to crew error in their inability to deal with a standard emergency. Fatalities: 33 PR 421 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_421) April 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_18), 1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977) Douglas DC-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-8) Tokyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo), Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) A DC-8-53 named "Champaca" (RP-C803) was written off after a landing accident at Haneda Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport). None PR 206 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_206) June 27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_27), 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) Hawker Siddeley HS 748 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_HS_748) Itogon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itogon,_Benguet), Benguet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benguet) Crashed in Mount Ugu (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mount_Ugu&action=edit&redlink=1), fifteen kilometers south of Loakan Airport in Baguio City, due to poor visibility. Fatalities: 50 N/A December 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_13), 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) Short 360-300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_360) Iligan City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iligan_City) Crashed near Maria Cristina Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Cristina_Airport). Fatalities: 15 N/A July 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_21), 1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989) BAC One-Eleven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_One-Eleven) Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila) Crashed at Ninoy Aquino International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninoy_Aquino_International_Airport)PR 143 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_143) May 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_11), 1990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990) Boeing 737-300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737)Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila) EI-BZG suffered an explosion in the center fuel tank near the terminal of Ninoy Aquino International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninoy_Aquino_International_Airport) while preparing for takeoff. The fire and smoke engulfed the aircraft before it could be completely evacuated. The explosion was similar to what happened to the ill-fated TWA Flight 800 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800) six years later. Fatalities: 8 PR 434 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434) December 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_11), 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994) Boeing 747-200 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747) Minami Daito, Okinawa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minami_Daito,_Okinawa), Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) A small bomb exploded underneath the seat (seat 26K) of Japanese businessman Haruki Ikegami. Ikegami died due to injuries sustained in the explosion, but none of the aircraft's other 293 passengers and crew were killed. The aircraft landed safely. Investigators later found that Ramzi Yousef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Yousef) planted the bomb there to test it out for a terrorist attack he was planning, Project Bojinka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojinka_plot). The plan was foiled after an apartment fire in Manila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila) led investigators to the laptop computer and disks containing the plan. Fatalities: 1 PR 137 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_137) March 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_22), 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998) Airbus A320 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A320) Bacolod City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacolod_City) The aircraft overran the runway of Bacolod City Domestic Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacolod_City_Domestic_Airport) and crashed, plowing through homes near its end. Ground Fatalities: 3 The aircraft, with registration number PI-C270 and departing from Crashed in Crashed due to crew error, severe turbulence and strong gusty winds. Fatalities: 26 Crashed in when the aircraft overran the runway while landing, impacting several vehicles on an adjacent roadway. Ground Fatalities: 8

P.S,
now , does that make it even? - NOT!

[John Holmes junior]

I got dizzy counting it all up...

The latest score:

A319/320 Incidents: PAL=4, BUPAK= 0

Fatal Incidents: PAL=18, BUPAK= 1
additionally...AIRPHIL =1 , ASIAN SPIRIT= 1

change topic na pls...:bored:

[parsifal]

There seem so much i could learn from you if only i could fly with you. But you are not obviously with PAL anymore so that seems remotely possible. We both agree that change should happen at PAL. But that change could be made only from the inside not from outside looking in. You could be that agent of change if you go back there and be an influence regardless of the presence of the assholes and bastards presently competing for the ass of Lucio. One could make a difference.

Fortunately or not, i am not a PAL kid but i have feelings for this Company. Afterall, it carries the name of my country.

[repapips]

parsifal

I don't think any "sane" pilot would think of coming back to the Phils given the reason you gave. It just doesn't make it.

Good luck to you all!

:rolleyes:

[pack1]

"Modesty aside, the most of us experienced ones have transferred out to other airlines. Pay standardization eventually got started or so we've heard, but it was too little too late.

In fairness, PAL's present generation of pilots are a promising batch. But the company has to live with needing to wait again before it again enjoys the level of experience it is supposed to have."


I beg to disagree Wamba wamba. Looking back, the recent Tacloban and Butuan accidents were flown by very experienced captains.

I tend to believe that the problem lies in culture and training. PAL pilots should quit believing they are the best pilots around and start reviewing the god important images of captains. Maybe if they start realizing this things will begin to turn around.

The big boy in A320 training still feels like god with at least 2 runway excursions under his watch. And dreaming of a B777 post? Delicadeza is not alive and well in PAL.

[teeepee]

well said.....:);):Ochange will have to start from the Macho's themselves (go back to planet earth) from the CP A343/333 down to a few Line Pilots exposed to this mediocres

[SKYHAWKER]

After the 5J-387 accident, the first one to be sacked by the "Big Boss" was the Director for Training, then followed by the VP then the CP. It all happened in few months time after the accident. All of them were Ex-PALers. This was how CebPac clearly defined "COMMAND RESPONSIBILITY."

A very strick Safety Audit was conducted to the Company by the FAA and ATO Inspectors as sanctioned by Malacanang. As a result, most of the Pilots were retrained in Flight Safety Academy in Miami, Florida. In addition to this was the voluminous compliances submitted by the company to both the FAA and ATO inspectors. This action has lifted the grounding of all the DC-9 Aircratfs. Pilots who completed their retraining were the first one to fly.

This has started the Safety Culture in CebPac (not a "Macho Culture"). A part of the training for an FO was to shout a "Go-Around", if he feels unsafe and uncomfortable with the Captains' approach. It happened many times in the line in many occasions such as bad weather and unstabilized approach. It saves them much of the costly equipment and priceless lives.

Do PAL really need another accident to happen in order to change their "people" and "culture" with the cost of Human Lives?

My point of view is very simple and objective. It needs a change in the "LEADERSHIP".


Who is the "Big Boss"?





NO OFFENSE!!!

[parsifal]

A good organization requires both good leadership and followership.

Command responsiblity is spawned by one's general good sense of responsibility. Among others, it involves recognizing one's obligations and not running away from it.

"He also leads who follows"

[pack1]

Change in the leadership and and he also leads who follows: great English, Skyhawker and parsifal.

Skyhawker, you seem to have a genuine desire for PAL to change. With the prescription to follow Cebu Pacific's formula. Maybe you can hop over there and teach the change :}

[SKYHAWKER]

Parsifal, your concept of "Leadership" is on the micro side which is applicable only to small unit/organization. My concept is "macro leadership", which is how to change a very large organization from a bad and dwindling to a good and profitable one. In short, how a Leader set the tone and direction.

Have you seen a very good organization devastated by a Weak Leader? It is the same thing that a very bad organization transformed by a Strong Leader. A good example is Malaysian Airlines. It is the Leader.

Pack1, I do not have any plan to move at my present position at the moment though I feel that I am the "Big Boss" of my own organization with "much of the pay and less of the responsibility". My English is also not as good as what you may think of (ICAO Level 5) but good enough than those English Speaking countries who got Level 4. I have 6 years to enjoy my work and to improve my English.:)

By the way, I know an IP who is good in many things. Good in English, good in speech, good in grammar, good in composition,and the most important thing is"good in connections". But he has a big problem on CRM that borders an incident or accident. He should have been better as an English Instructor.;)


"It's All About Experience."



No Offense!!!

[parsifal]

There is this sinister prospect of war erupting anew in mindanao arising from the botched MOA on the BJE. There appear a vacuum in the political leadership of our land. I am strongly endorsing the prayer of Pack1 that you come back and provide us, hapless filipinos, your macro leadership. Please..

[silver_streak]

These move have solve Bupak problem and since then has established a good safety record . The Big Question is will PAL do the same thing...:confused:

[St. Ex]

A good example is Malaysian Airlines. It is the Leader.

Speaking of malaysians, there are quite a number of them lurking in PAL's offices. This seems to agree with the rumor that malaysians are actually running the operations of PAL.

[eight16kreug]

Scoring by team is an insufficient analytical tool if our intent is to find causes and institute reforms. Given the setting and the prevailing cultures, a score by initial training might be enlightening, if we were to agree that initial operating experience shapes the basic mindset. PAL AvSchool, PAFFS, AirLink and the other Gen Av sources, Flight Safety et al, all instill unique attitudes that their current team Training Departments try to modify with varying degrees of success.

One might find that just like Leadership Style (micro or macro, Lucio or Lance), the source of Initial Training has no statistical significance in accidents. Better to check the Ephemeris or the Tide Tables.

Yes it can happen to anyone.

[pack1]

skyhawker,

at times you remind me of miriam defensor santiago and her self-righteousness :}

[SKYHAWKER]

Well, I am very sorry guys if I have offended anyone on this thread but I do not have any intention of doing it.

It is the reason why I always want to be OBJECTIVE. Maybe there's a TRUTH in it.

My CRM dictates that you may always correct me if you feel "unsafe" and "uncomfortable", but take heed, watch-out and learn if I am doing the right thing. I know when to speak and when to listen.

But again and as always...



NO OFFENSE!!!

[planestupid]

Skyhawker you are such a pussy!!

NO OFFENSE!!!

Why do you apologise for everything you say? You might be right or might be wrong, but to apologise for your opinion is just f..k.ng sad.

Pare, grow some balls!!

But again and as always...



NO OFFENSE!!! :E

[AvEnthusiast]

I remember from reading throught the threads of this forum, that some of the Filipino pilots are among the best known of aviation or ariline industry. So to be best known for your efforts, of course training is an issue. Therefore, I thought that maybe it's due to standard training of filipino FTOs, or ....?

[jens40202]

I agree with the posters that the culture at PAL seems to put the Capt on a pedestal. If you look at the topic closer, you will find that the root can be the environment way back at PAL Av School (seniority is everything!) and there again can be traced back to the Air Force roots where again...the higher ranking officer is God! Nobody dares to question the man with four stripes even in times of glaring stupidity. The situation is not unique to PAL. CAL and Garuda who have the same Air Force carry overs to a civilian airline, also have similar "zipped" FO problems.

The pinoy pilots seem to be good at diskarte in the event of adversities but we lose our edge due to the cockpit environment. We need to improve on voicing out our position when the four striper seems to be way off!

I've been on the jumpseat of PAL, Cathay and a few other western airlines, you can tell a huge difference coz the FO's in the other airlines never hesitate to voice out or "query" the Capt if the three striper has the slightest discomfort on a situation.

[SKYHAWKER]

Well, the TRUTH is really hurting. Not an OPINION but a FACT.

It is really nice that they know you as PLANESTUPID. It proves me RIGHT.


NO OFFENSE!!! :)

[pack1]

sensible post jens40202!

[pack1]

A wise man knows when to speak.

Openly prescribing solutions to another organization (that one doesn't belong to) and in the process extolling oneself and one's own organization as the answer to somebody else's problem, is, bordering on the miriam santiago antics. Calling out objectivity and bato bato sa langit antics are the least of them all.

When we talk about other organization's problems, we are barking up the wrong tree. Our job is to straighten out our own.

When being smart is the least of them all.

[Cessna1052]

When we talk about other organization's problems, we are barking up the wrong tree.

Our job is to straighten out our own.

When being smart is the least of them all.



How will the Organization know that there is a problem, if no one will bark?

Do you rightfully accept that the problem is You?

the last one, i must admit is the best thing you've said.

[westie]

does PAL only take locals or will it consider people like me (A320 trainer) with a JAA licence? Am looking for a short term contract somewhere.

[parsifal]

if the dogs do not bark or whimper, then they must be content with their condition or with the treatment they are receiving from their master.

to proclaim that you, on the outside, can see the problem of an organization and that one, from the inside, cannot see it and act on it is much too presumptous and insulting, to say the least, to those inside.

i maintain that it is better to fight the maladies from within. so those of you with kind hearts and good intentions, please come over and lead the way or some ways. it is not that we, here, are lacking in that area.

[cdrking]

this is a pissing contest if i ever saw one.
Its amazing how nice the 5j boys are to pal captains when 5j has problems, saying things like we are all brothers in the skies..but when an oportunity arrises .....like counting accidents...:=:=
Parsifal said it best at the begining of this thread: what kind of race are we if we...
the aviation industry is not a pissing contest nor is it a place to see who s got the bigger d..k!! Start acting like gentalmen, something 5j and pal expects from you, most of the people here arent even jet engine yet but think you can start pissing on Philippine airlines....with atitudes like that you'll never make it in the airline industry.. :ugh::ugh:

[SKYHAWKER]

"INFORMATION is a very powerful tool for a change." A credible information that is derived directly from the source is called A1.

Georgia lost the War from Russia but won the Battle thru INFORMATION (outside pressure). They show the war as it happened.

Noli Me Tangere and El Filibusterismo started the Awakening that eventually sparks the Revolution. Jose Rizal while in Spain received vital information from his friends and felow martyrs in the Philippines. They were subjected to REPRISAL.

Could you consider the PAL 4 incidents especially the one in Butuan as AWAKENING, and the FO's are the MARTYRS who fear REPRISAL due to a MACHO CULTURE?


The only downside of "Information" is the "inability" to process it.


Parsifal, my man, I am sure that you were also trained as a "Leader" but you might have forgotten your "basics" and this will refresh you. You do not need "reinforcement" right now for your company is doing good. You should have thanked Captain HL and Captain RB (Ex-PALers) on how they transformed CebPac to its current status. They were very instrumental for CebPac's SAFETY CULTURE. They were a BIG LOST from PAL but a GREAT GAIN from CebPac.

Do you know why "Old Wine" is very "expensive" ? It tastes great as it gets old.

It is the same thing for "Pilots", but, it is not all about "Flying".

It's About Experience...:)


Thought for today;


"It is the WEAK who are CRUEL. GENTLENESS can only be expected from the STRONG." (Leo Rosten)




NO OFFENSE!!!

[ian del castillo]

stork if you think my dad was overbearing you must've been one shabby dude. and yes the lingayen incident was brought about by the unpaved taxi way. and i never had to get out of the one. reports have been submitted and yes the taxi way did have fod which at that time was covered by grass. so before you go thrashing the reputation of the screaming eagle check your facts.

as of now the investigation for the cotobato incident is still on going. and i being the captain take full responsibility for whatever decision the company or authorities may deem neccesary. the screaming eagle never intervened. and if he did... as a dad woudnt you? i pity your children (if you do have kids)

you can always get in touch with me and i'll face you like a man and not destroy a good mans image thru the doings of his kids.

if you relish and delight in the misery of other pilots again i pity you. are you sure your in the right proffesion?

get in touch and we will talk (0920)9181340

are you that perfect?...... i dont think so

and speaking about experience... where did that get you.... away from your loved ones perhaps.... couldnt take the defeat and go back to work to live and fight another day..... then maybe the ALPAP of legends would still have fangs

[Cessna1052]

What if the dogs have harness strapped on their mouth? what if proclaiming such statements lead to presumption that you're somebody sharp?.... oh no Parsifal, you dont really know PAL if you're not there. OR, if you are there, then you must be one of those who only agrees because you have low time , low experience , no enough bars to bark your way out in case subdued.

learn one more thing, dont beg. This will show how weak your personality is.

Dont think that we are people without friends, though our motives to go out is more personal, we made it a point to share the facts we have seen. BUT, no one was ever interested on how Our Safety departments work, or Standard auditing is being done in this part of the world. Do you want to know about our fuel policy?

Going back will not make a difference young man, it will not.

BUT, make your BEST offer. Somebody might be interested to what you're about to say.

P.S. have you ever heard of the tagalog word "miron"?


Cheers!!!!

[ian del castillo]

we did not skid off the runway.....
we were on landing roll runway 28 when tower advised us to make 180 and expedite vacating and taxi back to the ramp due aircraft orbiting on finals 28. so upon checking my speed (20kts and deccelerating) i decided to commence with the 180 turn since the rwy width was in accordance to the airbus standard of 30mtrs min. and 40 degrees before the completion of turn the nose wheel fell of the edge of the rwy.

investigation by the company and all concerned authorities is still on going.

poor judgement? (apparently)
experience? we learn
my fault? DEFINITELY IM THE FREAKIN CAPT!

and to cheer up the nay sayers ill even post the verdict

i take full responsibility for what happened.

so that all you may know

god speed and may you never have an incident lest you be the one to be the unlucky

[Cessna1052]

Ian,

You've been brave and I am proud that you have expressed your responsibility.

Im sure you're off sched at the moment, but saying this Isnt to make you feel bad or to add up to the stirs around you.

This I believed is the right moment for you to reflect, to go back to the time when it happened. Where did I go wrong? What could have I done to prevent such incident? What can i share to my colleagues, so that such will not occur a second time?
There's plenty of question in your mind, Im sure. Use this time, and at the end it will not only be you who will benefit, but those around you as well.

All the best!!!
Cessna

[Alpha 6]

it takes a lot of guts to accept one's fault, no excuses, no buts...
i wish you all the best capt.ian...Godbless

[St. Ex]

we were on landing roll runway 28 when tower advised us to make 180 and expedite vacating and taxi back to the ramp due aircraft orbiting on finals 28. so upon checking my speed (20kts and deccelerating) i decided to commence with the 180 turn since the rwy width was in accordance to the airbus standard of 30mtrs min. and 40 degrees before the completion of turn the nose wheel fell of the edge of the rwy.

Hi Ian,

I admire your courage and humility to admit your mistake and face the consequences. Let's all be grateful that nobody got hurt.

Having said that, I hope you don't mind me asking about this experience in order to make the most out of the situation and turn the outcome into something positive. If we know exactly what happened, what the conditions were and what you were thinking, I am hoping all those who read this thread might learn something and apply it in the way we fly.

In particular, I would like to ask you at what groundspeed exactly did you commence the turn? The FCTM states "...establish a 25o divergence from the runway axis (using the ND or PFD) with a maximum ground speed of 10 kts.". You only mentioned "20 knots and decelerating" but did not say exactly what speed.

Thanks in advance for shedding some light regarding this matter.

[ian del castillo]

st. ex
i started my turn @ 4kts. wx was cavok with 250/5 wind reported.

if its one thing i learned from this experience is that never jeopardize your aircraft even if the tower tells you to expedite. i was thinking that since the aircraft orbiting on finals was already telling tower that he was approaching min. fuel and assessing my situation at that time. i deemed it best to execute the 180 at the runway, since all parameters were ok. and to all of you who fly the domestic route we all know that the 180 turn is an everyday part of life. but to make it clear i never did the maneouver thinking that i would be jeoperdizing the safety of the crew and pax.

and for the record no pax were shaken as reported. they were even smiling having their pics taken at the nose wheel.:ugh:

[rsajlk]

Acceptance of one's mistakes makes for a better person. Reflect on it, make sure it doesn't happen again .. and move on. This experience becomes part of your treasure chest which we all call experience..Believe me, it will make you a much better pilot and person at that..I should know, most of the "best" have been through some sort of incident. Relax ka lang, accept whatever comes your way,,and get back to flying with a renewed sense of responsibility and outlook. Remember, numerous lives are in our hands, let's give them back a safe flight..

[ian del castillo]

Acceptance of one's mistakes makes for a better person. Reflect on it, make sure it doesn't happen again .. and move on. This experience becomes part of your treasure chest which we all call experience..Believe me, it will make you a much better pilot and person at that..I should know, most of the "best" have been through some sort of incident. Relax ka lang, accept whatever comes your way,,and get back to flying with a renewed sense of responsibility and outlook. Remember, numerous lives are in our hands, let's give them back a safe flight..


thank you very much sir! words cannot express the way i value the things that you have just said. safe journeys sir and hope to see you soon.

[SKYHAWKER]

Ian,

I do not know you personally and not even your Dad, but what you have just shown can make anyone proud of you.

You have just shown your "Bosses" what is "Command Responsibility" which should have stopped from them at the beginning but didn't have the "balls" to do it.

Your attitude bespeak of a brave warrior with the courage to face any adversaries. I am sure that you will end up as the winner.

You are a Professional Pilot better than anyone.

"Daplis lang ito at kailangan mong magpagaling". This will be a special part of your "Laurels" when you grow old flying.




My Salute!!!

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Hi Ian,

I am a 747 Captain and have been flying for 30 years. I have no association with PAL. But upon reading this post I commend you on your courage and wish to tell you that all of us have made mistakes some bigger than others, and that your attitude toward this incident is admirable and that I am sure you will be a better and safer Captain following your internal reflection of this matter. Additionally you will have an understanding of the emotional aspect and will in the future be able to understand the feelings of others.

So amigo hang in there and all will be well as the investigation is only there to improve safety, training and SOP policy. It is not designed to be a witch hunt with a burning at the stake. Btw I would be proud of you if you were my son.

Cheers, :D

Wooblah.

[planestupid]

SE junior,

you are brave to come on this thread and tell us your side of the story, however stupidity also accompanies braveness. And you are mo stupid to write anything about what has happened considering there is an investigation looming. Anything you write on this thread can bite you in the ass later.

What... Skyhawker.... no applogy? No offenses? You are such a d...., one minute you are comparing PAL and CP on their A320 accident record and then the next you are kissing the ass of the pilot that had that accident. You make me laugh!!! I'm sure you will become a Captain soon, especially with that SIPSIP attitude. Most of us have a brown nose coz we were born with one... yours is just especially brown!!!! NO OFFENSE

[ian del castillo]

to: capt wooblah and skyhawker thanks for the kind words

to: planestupid, im not stupid enough to get into the details of the incident which could affect the investigation. the things i stated are the generic details. those of which people in our profession normally talk about on a day to day basis. aside from having a screaming eagle to guide my wings the other half that brought me into this world happens to be a lawyer. but thanks for the concern. i really appreciate it. and to set the record straight its an incident not an accident

[Cessna1052]

Skyhawker and Planestupid,

let bygones be bygones, just let it go. Aside from Ian, almost all of us are hiding behind our Pprune callsigns, not that people from PAL doesnt know who cessna really is. But the point is, aside from rumour network, we are here at least to contribute our sound ideas in prevention of such Incidents or even accidents from happening again.

It saddens me to see and read news about Philippine airplanes flown by Filipino pilots going outside the runway. I still believed that I have good friends back home, and it fears me knowing that it might be a friend who was at one point in danger of losing their lives, not to mention hundred of passengers whom i might have some affiliation.

In my present outfit, Safety reports are regularly submitted ranging from unstabilized approaches, RA's, disruptive Passengers, Go arounds, Miscommunication etc. And this reports are released to all the pilots via the company email addresses, for all of us to read and understand. In this way, It gives us added situational awareness of those peculiar procedures to a specific airport.
And if you're new to a destination, you can phone up Safety dept and ask for latest copies of this Safety reports for that Airport.
But, of course Safety doesnt provide the Names of pilots involved on the safety reports. We dont have need for it.

[parsifal]

no offense.. just provoking.


hi, ike. i remember you from the F-50 days. i know you are a self-made man. and your dad, what i know is that he brought about the PAL pilots retirement fund and sent some of our pilots to the posh ayala alabang village during the ALPAP of yore. about the screaming thing... i have no clue.

have a nice day, dude!

[KAchichas]

the two incident/accident with pal happened with two very experienced and old captains in command with very young junior first officers. Tacloban - flight instructor captain positively took the controls on finals from a newly released fo to continue the approach, overran. Butuan - old and "siga" captain vocally overuling fo's decision and callouts to make a go around, again overran. 320 damaged beyond repair. FO's NOT taking over were both an issue during the investigation. why should it go to this level? both happened i believe due to poor CRM and culture (macho culture as past threads has been noting about the company) which still poses a real threat to the company.

just wanted to add this info because the cotabato incident is not much as compared to these two incidents/accidents. gooday to all.

ps. scoring such incidents against one another is so sad...

[pambusco]

does it matter what type of airplane is involved?
accident or an incident is not our liking but it happens for some reasons.
pls do not count, God forbids, you may be next!
why not try to write something that will benefit us professionally?
G O D BLESS!

[pack1]

How will the Organization know that there is a problem, if no one will bark? Do you rightfully accept that the problem is You? oh no Parsifal, you dont really know PAL if you're not there.

Cessna1052,

Present and ex-PAL pilots, I see the reason why they should bark.

Skyhawker,

For an outsider to be prescribing solutions when one doesn't really know PAL if not or haven't been there is crossing the self-righteousness and arrogance line. To take a righteous attitude about anything is to denigrate it. Are you so worried about status thus the need to denigrate another? Quoting Rizal et al. doesn't automatically qualify for a smart post. You could also be smart, boy (yes, you're a boy), but not necessarily filled to the brim in character. Capts. RB and HL, they have character. You obviously haven't learned from them.
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4349537) http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4349537&noquote=1)

[pack1]

You have my highest respect. Hang in there, brother.

[parsifal]

... therefore no hear, no speak, no see, no right. and you talk about CRM. old school thinking, thats what it is.

[V25XX]

PAL=4...buPac=1 (DC-9 in Bacolod during 180 taxi back) remember such narrow Rwy 04 which forbids 180 before the runway end. Nobody is good when SOP is not followed.

[Cessna1052]

Your Post:
if the dogs do not bark or whimper, then they must be content with their condition or with the treatment they are receiving from their master.

My Reply:
What if the dogs have harness strapped on their mouth? what if proclaiming such statements lead to presumption that you're somebody sharp?.... oh no Parsifal, you dont really know PAL if you're not there. OR, if you are there, then you must be one of those who only agrees because you have low time , low experience , no enough bars to bark your way out in case subdued. - My statement doesnt mean that I agree with PAL culture.


- Oh no, im no old school. Thats why Im out and did not stay long enough to see my end with them. And yes, i talk about CRM and thats what it is.

[repapips]

I don't know you...but I wish I did.
You're worthy of my salute...
Admission of a mistake is the first step...
which is always the hardest...

Keep it up, brother!

[B747-800]

we did not skid off the runway.....
we were on landing roll runway 28 when tower advised us to make 180 and expedite vacating and taxi back to the ramp due aircraft orbiting on finals 28. so upon checking my speed (20kts and deccelerating) i decided to commence with the 180 turn since the rwy width was in accordance to the airbus standard of 30mtrs min. and 40 degrees before the completion of turn the nose wheel fell of the edge of the rwy.

investigation by the company and all concerned authorities is still on going.

poor judgement? (apparently)
experience? we learn
my fault? DEFINITELY IM THE FREAKIN CAPT!

and to cheer up the nay sayers ill even post the verdict

i take full responsibility for what happened.

so that all you may know

god speed and may you never have an incident lest you be the one to be the unlucky


Congratulations Cpt. Del Castillo! This is the first time I have seen a pilot taking full responsibility for his action and not trying to cover up!

Great! Honesty helps!

Good luck in the investigation!

[Cessna1052]

So, whats the ending of the story? I heard from a PAL guy, verdict has been handed over to the F.D. crew.

[ian del castillo]

its three months for me and a month for my partner.

safe flights to everyone

stork im still waiting

[B747-800]

F:mad:k, and it counts from what day?

[planestupid]

Censure, reprimand and suspension.... ah gotta love P.A.L !!!! Is there any kind of recurrency training? Or just a slap on the wrist for bending the plane? Any kind of CRM training that could prevents accidents from happening again or a new safety system to stem future problems? If the answer is NO... suspension will be as usefull as f...king a prostitute with syphilis. DR. PS is in the house and his prognosis is :The STD is in boys and girls and it aint going away anytime soon!

To all you sycophants that admire Ian for taking full responsiblity, that is only part of the problem at PAL. Ian fessed up, but what are the final outcomes of these runway incursions?

Real airlines have safety systems and CRM programs that are more than just a 1 day course at PLC or a tick in the box in your training file! Its an entire culture that promotes safety above everything. Passengers lives and the aircraft/property are more important that people's reputations and feelings. Being safe means that you will make a report even if you are friends with the captain or first officer or even if you will be persecuted for it when you get to Gate 1. Because reporting an incident even if it is trivial, allows others in similar situtations to learn from your mistakes. Ian's mistake is probably ONE of hundreds that haven't been reported. Unfortunately for Ian there is a bent airplane to expose the incident and unfortunately for safety at PAL many more will be hidden before someone dies. The promotion and encouragement of a Safety CULTURE is going to be hard for PAL due to traditions and culture. Safety will always be secondary.

PAL is truly a sub-standard airline. I KNOW THIS FOR FACT! No appologies here, until PAL changes!

[ian del castillo]

the three months started sept 15th. after that sim then routequal. which i really dont mind. ganun talaga eh. plus i think it will do me a lot of good.

@ planestupid why dont you return and make things better in PAL since you seem to know how to run a tight ship. or have you already given up on PAL?
i see the point that you are trying to drive at and yes you do have tons of valid points. but why rant on a company that you are not a part of anymore? i sense a lot of bitterness but as a proffesional you just oughta be happy that you are "out" of this company that you abhore so much.

peace to all and safe flying.
this will be my last post since the case has already been decided

STORK ASAN KA?! USAP TAYO THE CASE MAY BE OVER BUT IT AINT OVER BETWEEN US. (KULOT?)

[rq4globalhawk]

"adios the three months started sept 15th. after that sim then route qual. which i really dont mind. ganun talaga eh. plus i think it will do me a lot of good." - Ian ------------------------------------------------------Ian shows the mark of a true professional. You've earned my respect, Captain.

[repapips]

Time will tell you'll be remembered not for the incident/accident you did but how you acted afterwards...

I for one already forgot what incident/accident you were in. What's that again?

F--k! The thread title is a giveaway!

Ah! Anyway. Whatever it is, you'll be remembered not because of that.

All the best man!

[KAchichas]

big man syndrome?...

[rq4globalhawk]

"Capt P.P., former PAL Av School Instructor"

Oh .... hope the guy has matured ... he wasn't that great as an S/O

[738FO]

After seing this Thread , i dont know if US Filipinos Pilots who are in other countries would really be proud of our race. Guys , We do not have to feast on other pilots misfortunes. And again , Saying something about someones dad is really low.
You guys call yourself Professional Pilots? Think Again!!:=:=:=

Capt. , takes so much courage to accept your mistakes and I salute you for that. :ok::ok:

We all mistakes. " WHAT DOES NOT KILL YOU , MAKES YOU STRONGER AND BETTER"

Not like other pilots who have so much ego that coudnt accept that in a way or two , nagkamali din sila.

RE: Seniority thing.

For all pilots who think of themselves as "GOD" Shame on you. :=:=:=
This is not a Game we play up there. So listening to other peoples opinion woudnt always hurt. so , if you think of yourself as GOD.... WHATS THE PURPOSE OF THE RIGHT SEAT??? Might as well call Boeing or Airbus and suggest they just put 1 seat in the middle.

Reality check , there are 2 main seats on the FD and theres a reason for that.


Guys We are of the same blood , same race and same industry. We should be helping each other out not destroying each others reputation. so please , lets respect each other.

Peace out.

God Speed

DL FO. 737-800

[windsheargo]

P.P. maybe be like what you say he is... but he is not STORK.... C'mon Stork be a man.... reveal yourself..... Stork, I know who you are....

[Sonoftheman]

i hate reading this sort of incident/accident scoring mania. i suggest you as a pilot should learn from from these mishaps. I admit, once near incident happens to you..it will take time to recover from the belief how good a pilot you are.

We cannot blame these young pilots in that airline, instead of making them Limited First Officers, they make them second officer. Just to save the airline money? How many planes can they afford to lose now! or lives!

Wake up you pilots on that airline, esp you have now an SVP who can't fly but is good in burning cd's.

I only know of one ab-initio paying class who became good pilots, but they were guided thoroughly by their management parents. The rest? we call them in our dialect= mga latak....

[mach.86]

i normally would just let cheap shots aimed at avschool grads pass considering this is a network where anyone's emotion can just burst forth. but this one raises the bar, so to speak. while it is true that a chunk of avschool trainees comes from a lineage of pilot/s, it doesn't make them any better. the rest termed as 'latak' had to learn on their own, and if they do measure up to the standards, it is because of their sheer capacity and potential. after all, there's no such thing as a born flyer (or maybe some still suffer from the illusion that they are).

[larry231]

got on a flight with them between cebu and manila on a 747 and the pilots almost ran out of runway in Manila... totally overshot the touchdown point and wasn't braking properly, and that was a damn long runway !

Otherwise having been around a lot of airports in the Philippines the runways are really short and narrow, and yet they still land A320's on those post stamps, nothing like landing on a 3300 meters runway.

So sure there's bad pilots everywhere but don't forget about all the good ones. I did work in the Phils and seen good pilots and aweful pilots (sorry but most of them weren't good pilots but yet there's a few really good guys).

[Stubenfliege 2]

Any body know, if there is a official report about the Butuan Accident out and avaiable on line?

Regards,

Stubenfliege

[Stubenfliege 2]

Thanks a lot.

[stork]

PAL plane stuck in mud at Zamboanga airport
By Julie Alipala
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 11:03:00 03/09/2011

Filed Under: Air Transport, Philippines - Regions, Consumer Issues
ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines—A Philippine Airlines plane for Manila got stuck at the end of Runway 6 of the Zamboanga City Airport here past 7 a.m. Wednesday.

The plane was carrying undetermined number of passengers, including six members of the city council.

[nandyg1]

hope everyone's ok. fly safe guys.

[St. Ex]

Filed Under: Air Transport, Philippines - Regions, Consumer Issues
ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines—A Philippine Airlines plane for Manila got stuck at the end of Runway 6 of the Zamboanga City Airport here past 7 a.m. Wednesday.

Did they mean runway 09?

[The_Prophet]

If there's one thing i can say about PAL it's that very culture of "macho" mindedness... it's so deeply rooted. Actually, it's the very reason why i did not even dare apply in that company. I just wonder if there will be a day that culture be totally erradicated in that company...

Fly safe you guys wherever you are... and always say a li'l PRAYER before the 1st leg of a working day. It works for me... ;)