MANCHESTER - 6

[virgin_cc_wannabe]

The last SQ divert we had was when the FRA-JFK B744 had a bomb hoax and had to land, But recently its diverted from LHR twice while the runways have been closed.

I have never seen an emirates divert into MAN, and the only regular transatlantic splash & dash I am aware of was when DL had a regular B772 on the BOM-JFK run. Now thats changed to a B777LR we dont even see that one anymore.

The only diverts we tend to see are during bad weather, as demonstrated 2 weeks ago when we had 3x AA, 1x KQ and 1x AI from LHR.

We will soon see as winter is approaching fast and its when we get the majority of our diverts in.

[AeroMANC]

current operators carry a towbar in the hold. bit tricky getting back on the aircraft after pushback though. Perhaps leave it at MAN and have it shipped down to LHR!

[mantug01]

Scottie Dog -
Correct me if I am wrong, but I would imaging that normal 747 size steps would be able to reach the main-deck door.

Good question with regards to the tow-bar. Do the Airbus wide-bodies all have a common connection, if so does this extend to the 380?

The A380 needs stronger sheer pins on the towbar so the other towbars are no use. EK carry a towbar in the hold just incase.

Steps are no issue for main deck, Not much height difference then an A330. Upper deck you'd have no chance at the moment.

It would park on 62, until stand 32 and 12 are redeveloped.

[UFGBOY]

Momentary lapses ' total lack of aviation knowledge must surely be from his/her statement regarding the 600/700 people being deplaned!!!

[TURIN]

"deplane"

Aaaaaarrrrggghhh!!!!

[Vuelo]

Some new routes being announced tomorrow, apparently.

[Betablockeruk]

Oh I do hope so! I'm tired of Friday's "big announcement" always being......"it's the weekend". :hmm:

[G-STAW]

any truth in DL commencing MAN-DTW?

G-STAW

[Alan Tracey]

SQ carry tow bar in the hold as well. Need powerful tug though

[Suzeman]

Some new routes being announced tomorrow, apparently.

Nearly 2200 on Friday - I can't hold my breath much longer.......:uhoh:

Suzeman

[Betablockeruk]

In the absence of a big announcement lets create our own:

Read the article Airline Backed By European Leaders | FHR Travel News | BOOKFHR.com (http://www.fhr-net.co.uk/travel_news/1525/airline_backed_by_european_leaders/) and note the text that refers to "Alitalia currently flies directly into a number of UK destinations, including its regional hub at Manchester Airport (http://www.fhr-net.co.uk/airports/manchester.asp)."

Yep, you heard it here first. Alitalia's regional hub at.......... Manchester. :rolleyes:

[BTNH]

:DThat is funny!!!:} Did i ever see 1 alitalia at man???? And then the hub?????(i must be blind)

[Ringwayman]

AZ have had 4 goes at operating into MAN, so book your appoint at your local optician. The last effort was only ended a couple of years ago using Wombles; the longest period of operation would have been the 3rd period which was around 1988 to 1992.

[jubilee]

Yes, I was on one of there last attempts at Manchester,on a very nice E170,full both ways.
Regards,
Jubilee

[BTNH]

Thanks for that. I think i have to do the appointment.
We will see how long it will be this time????

[Seljuk22]

X3 (TUIfly) will end HAJ-MAN service on 20th January 2009.

[G-STAW]

Evening guys,

just been given a copy of the ten year plan of MAN, heres some interesting notes...

- T1=All schedules, T2= Charters and T3= Low-cost
- Pier B to get full re-build with all airbridges.
- Pier C get another level 4 arrivals
- (from the images)T3 is going to be as big as T2

thats only the first page, also got images of Pier B re-build with A380 diagrams, looks interesting,

thats all for now...


G-STAW

[JackRalston]

Probably a long shot.....

any ideas on how to obtain a copy of the 10 year plan?

[Hamburg 2K8]

Evening All,
I don't know if I should be posting this question here, but I am trying to track a flight that is due to land at MAN at 03.10 tomorrow morning it's TCX520L from Larnaca. It is not on the Larnaca airport website.

I would like to know if it will be landing on time, what aircraft it is and is it possible to find out which stand it will be going on when it arrives at MAN?

Thanks,

Mat.

[Ian Brooks]

according to the airport website it is 5mins early and will park T1
can`t tell you which stand though

Ian

[Skipness One Echo]

I would like to know if it will be landing on time, what aircraft it is and is it possible to find out which stand it will be going on when it arrives at MAN?


Assuming you are Joe Public why is the stand allocation relevant. Just sounds a little fishy and one assumes you are not simply meeting someone off this flight?

[Curious Pax]

...or he just wanted to be able to identify which TCX flight was his? There are often a few returning at that sort of time. A bit paranoid, even in these difficult times?

[Hamburg 2K8]

I was picking up some relatives who had been on holiday in Cyprus and was intrested to know which stand the aircraft parked at.

Can we not ask innocent questions like that anymore on this type of forum?

[wiccan]

Yes, but Why the Stand Number? It's not as if you can go and pick up the pax...is it?
Terminal, yes. [But ALL TCX flts (unless sub chartered) operate from T1]... Journo alert..."BITV cracks pax scandal at MAN.......again"
bb

[Vuelo]

This whole debate is very boring.

Move on boys.

[Adola69]

Gosh, what a lot of very uninteresting twaddle. Tell me is it the same person with different p-prune identities prolonging this drivel? Surely it can't be more than one numpty?

The Manchester thread has descended into a trashy tit-for-tat bashing excercise. If you ain't got anything to report that is factual AND relevant to the thread, then go and post your comments to VIZ or Woman's Own, but leave us alone!

Now for a posting that used to form the style of most of the threads on this site. I do however preface it with the statement that " This may turn out to be true, or may fall by the way side like so many others recently."

Air Sylhet - Scheduled services are expected to start during this winter. I'm not sure as to what the destination will be or if it'll be "via" anywhere, but they have booked in two promotional flights. SHR2001/2 on the 23rd Nov. at 1000/1100z and 27th Nov. at 0900/1000z operating from Vienna with an A.320. Only time will tell if these turn up.

PIA are introducing the A.310 on some of the flights that terminate at Manchester in place of the B772, due to a reduction in Pax numbers and requiring to place the Triples on other routes, not ex Man.

There - hope this gets us all back-on track :rolleyes:

[Betablockeruk]

Re Air Sylhet.

Has anyone seen any reference to actual fleet? Are they going to wet/dry lease aircraft if all looks ok with days to launch?

I reckon it's a student's A level media studies project - I'd fail him/her for music on website download. I hate that!! :*

[Betablockeruk]

Interesting comment by Air Asia X CEO:

"We prefer STN over Manchester airport because of the connectivity"

I'm not exactly sure whether I agree. It maybe factual to state that Stansted has more links but a fair number are to obscure places or loosely associated named airports in Europe i.e. I wish to fly to Frankfurt from STN. I type in 'Frankfurt' into the BAA Desti map and it offers FRA as a result but then displays Ryanair's Hahn service.

Manchester's network is surely more appropriate for European "connectivity".

[viscount702]

September provisional figures out. They don't look good.

EK down 14% so I would think any thoughts of 3 daily is out of the Question now

[MUFC_fan]

AirAsiaX is an LCC - STN has more LCC connection flights than MAN.

Someone travelling on AirAsiaX to MAN would not be pleased to pay the same price for a short flight to Europe/GB. They would probablyjust pay similar total price and fly with a flagship/premier carrier.

STN attracts LCCs, MAN less so.

[toledoashley]

According to V-Flyer, the Manchester - St. Lucia flight on VS will end at the start of the next summer season.

[G-STAW]

An in-depth look into the airports 10 year development strategy.

RIGHT SIZING EACH TERMINAL

- Move towards co-location by sector
- With the right facilities for the right sector
- At the right price
Terminal One - Full service/scheduled
Terminal Two - IT & C / Leisure outbound
Terminal Three - Short haul European

AIRPORT DEVELOPMENT PLAN

Significant investment in terminal, airfield, car parking and utilities infrastructure.

- Duel taxiway Delta
- Pier B demolition and rebuild.
- Upgrade West/East stands
- Code E/F parallel taxiways
- T2 West pier extension
- Pier C refurb and vertical segregtation
- T1/T2 Link
- T3 carpark extension
- Ringway road diversion
- T3 East apron
- Code F/C parallel taxiways
- Duel taxiway Juliet demolition of pier A
- Additional Runway crossing oposite T3

PIER B: rebuild

- Airside road inder pier
- All stands to be served airbridges
- Vetical segregation arrivals corridor over departures
- Domestic and international arrivals horizon segregation
- New 2-story A380 lounge integrated into the design of the pier

PIER B: image attached

TERMINAL 1 PIER C

- Maximise number of T1 contact stands
- Dual taxiway delta over remote stands to maintain Pier C as a double sided pier
- New arrivals corridor over existing pier to segregate departing from arriving passenger

TERMIAL 3 & PIER

T3 APRON EXTENSION
- New head of stand road if single central taxiway
- Area safeguard for code D2 stands
- New head of stand airside road
- Taxiway capacity to be investigated
- Four code D2 or 787-300 stands possible

DELIVERY PROGRAMME
Above complete by 2017

END
-------------------------------------------------------

i have read throught the 10 year plan and created a bullet-point document as seen above, from my point of view the plan looks promising, excitied by the proposed images of T3 pier, this will make T3 the same size as T2 if not bigger. Pier B looks very interesting, a very modern design to incorporate the A380!

Finally we have duel delta taxiway, this will ease conjestion early morning, plus good to see pier C being overhauled in the process.

G-STAW

[Vuelo]

That makes no sense whatsoever!

[Adola69]

What a FANTASTIC contribution to the thread from Veulo. How he must have have dwelt long and hard to compose such a marvellous and erudite comment. I'm sure that he'll soon be put forward for a Pulitzer prize.
If not I'd like to nominate him for being a prize :oh:

The point of his post being to prove that he MUST subscribe to Womans Own.

Oh dear I seem to have descended into my own Tit-for tat bashing.

Bovvered, am I - naah.

[Betablockeruk]

Thanks for the effort G-STAW.:ok:

Shame we're not going to see extension of V in the next 10 years but suppose cost/benefit analysis has justified the exclusion.

[airhumberside]

bmi are doing 4 Jeddah flights in November/December according to the airline route updates blog

[TechProblem]

G-Staw, just wondering if there are any start dates for any of these.

As far as im aware the T1/T2 link will need to be inplace before any work can start on B-pier, maybe even C-pier.

Duel taxiway Juliet demolition of pier A

Not sure what tht means, T3 A pier demolition ie 141/142/143 gone?
Or something to do with the taxi way Juliet.

What about the new Tower, or the 10 year plan only include the Termials?

[MAN777]

In reality I doubt if any major projects are started until financial markets stabilize.

MAGs thrifty ways over the last few years have probably been for the best.As a Manchester tax payer, I am glad they (MAG) havent saddled themselves with new multi billion terminals. Instead money has been spent on essential operational areas ie taxiway repairs outside and retail and security improvements inside.

I heard that the new control tower has been put on hold .

[bar none]

Further contraction at Man.
Looks like PIA down to 4 a week total from Jan 09.

[G-STAW]

G-Staw, just wondering if there are any start dates for any of these.

As far as im aware the T1/T2 link will need to be inplace before any work can start on B-pier, maybe even C-pier.


Quote:
Duel taxiway Juliet demolition of pier A
Not sure what tht means, T3 A pier demolition ie 141/142/143 gone?
Or something to do with the taxi way Juliet.

What about the new Tower, or the 10 year plan only include the Termials?

--------------------------------------------------
DETAILED DRAFT DELIVERY PROGRAMME

TERMINAL 1

T1-T2 LINK DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q3 2010
T1 PIER C DESIGN;BY 2008 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q3 2011
T1 DOMESTIC RETURN DESIGN; BY 2008 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q4 2009
T1 PIER B(A380 LOUNGE) DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q2 2011
T1 PIER B REFURB DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION BY Q2 2011
-------------------------

TERMINAL 3 (EAST)

T3 PIER DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q2 2012
T3 LANDSIDE EX DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION; BY Q2 2012
T3 RETAIL REFURB DESIGN;BY 2009 CONSTRUCTION; BY 2013
T3 AIRSIDE WORK DESIGN;BY 2010 CONSTRUCTION; BY 2011
---------------------------------

OTHER ON-GOING PROJECTS

T3 BUSINESS LOUNGE DESIGN; BY 2010 CONSTRUCTION; BY 2011
T3 MULTI-STORY EXT DESIGN; BY 2011 CONSTRUCTION; BY 2012
T1 SUBSTATION RELOCTN DESIGN;BY2010 CONSTRUCTION; BY 2011
T3 LANDSIDE SUB RELOCTN DESIGN;BY 2010 CONSTRUCTION;BY 2011
AIRFIELD TWYS/STANDS DESIGN'BY2008 CONSTRUCTION;BY 2017
T3 OBC(SOUTHERN FRONT) DESIGN;BY 2008 CONSTRUCTION; BY2008

END
-----------------------------------------------------

PS nothing on new tower construction

G-STAW

[AndyH52]

These long term plans will be affected by more than just the money markets in my view. Considering the likely continued contraction in the charter market (still a significant proportion of MAN's traffic), the increasing reliance on lo-co's - and the inherent low fees associated with them, and MAG's apparent desire to spend a not insignificant sum on acquiring a piece of the action at LGW, I wonder how much room the company will have financially to invest in its existing assets in the short - medium term?

Giving credit where it's due, mind, the money spent on the new security search area in T1 has delivered a big improvement although the total lack of natural light from the check-in area through to beyond duty free must be quite depressing for the staff working there!

[MAN777]

Depressing !!

Eee, Whin I wah a lad, wid do 18 hours a day, down int bowels of T1 baggage area, never seeing sun for weeks !

And at end of shift we ad t sweep up wi our tongues :)

[GavinC]

how does one get hold of the document?

[mickyman]

'how does one get hold of the document?'

IM the man with the plan..........G-STAW.

MM

[Momentary Lapse]

At first glance that looks a good plan. All of those works are needed and will make the airside environment and customer service better.

It's a tall and expensive order though, and some challenging timescales. I hope their project management skills are up to it, or will they be using MADL?

[TURIN]

MAN777

You do realise that you have written your post in 'a Yorkshire' accent and not best 'Cheshire' as should be. ;)

[MAN777]

Born Cheshire, work in Manchester, live on Lancashire / North Yorkshire border, I have a real identity crisis going on !!:confused:

[G-STAW]

how does one get hold of the document?



they are not widely available, i have been given permission to "note-only".



'how does one get hold of the document?'

IM the man with the plan..........G-STAW.

MM



your childish behavior has surfaced once more, btw an aircraft awaits your brush and binliner.........

G-STAW

[viscount702]

I thought T2 west Pier extension was due to start next year. Is that still the plan because I note that it is mentioned in the plan but no date

[mickyman]

G-STAW

You seem to be the only poster on here to have
inside infomation on the 10 yr plan, so naturally
one would assume that contacting you would be
the best bet for further knowledge.

Im so very sorry if this course of action has caused
you any amount of trouble.

I respect your position - in that you only want to
reveal tit-bits in your own time.

As to it being 'childish' - I thought that it might
help - so please except that it was a genuine
effort on my part to be - of help.

MM

[G-STAW]

i may of taken your post the wrong way, or didnt understand, anyhow i apologise. in regards to releasing tid-bit of info, this is due to time....

I have posted this info on here for people like you and others to have a detailed insight into the happenings of MAN, which in normal curcumstances would not be on general release.



ps. i dont mind questions being asked at all, thats exactly why i posted the document.



G-STAW

[Betablockeruk]

From Crains (www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk)

"Manchester Airport gets kudos at forum
Manchester Airport’s marketing strategy has been recognised at an aviation industry gathering in Malaysia. The airport was highly commended in the OAG Routes Airport Marketing Awards at a gala dinner at the 14th World Route Development Forum in Kuala Lumpur."

Depressing library picture of busy T2 line up with AC, CX and AI.

[G-STAW]

little update on the new tower...

"plans have been haulted"-thats directly from the NATS supervisor when i spoke to him in the tower today.

he said that,they dont mind keeping their current position,but atm they have no backup establishment in case of a fire.

G-STAW

[MUFC_fan]

Has it not surprised anybody that MAN has no direct link to Vienna?

I noticed as I looked through the SkyEurope website (an airline which was apparently in one of the worst positions BEFORE Silverjet, Eos et al went bust). I noticed that they don't have any links from their base in VIE to any UK/EIRE airport?

I know during the current economic climate it is more about hanging on to what you have got opposed to spreading it out, but if they were to start links from VIE to destinations in the UK/EIRE (MAN, BHX, DUB), there may be a small market for it.

At the moment though, AMS/LHR/CDG/FRA are our destinations if we want to go onto Austria at the moment from MAN.

[johnnychips]

Sky Europe fly to Bratislava, which sounds very exotic but is very near Vienna. About 50 minutes drive; and they used to put a bus on - don't know if they still do.
It might be quicker taking that option than changing at the destinations you mentioned.

[Mr A Tis]

The Sky Europe Bratislava route is probably why nobody else wants to get back on the VIE route.
Air Berlin did a very good connection via STN for a while, but the STN & VIE ex STN flights are now both gone.
Austrian had pencilled in a return to MAN-VIE in 2006 but have since confirmed they no longer any interest in the route.
I use Lufthansa or SWISS if I need to go to VIE.

[Curious Pax]

Perhaps FlyNiki will be interested when they have their new E190s next May/June?

[AircraftOperations]

There are still good buses from BTS to VIE to tie in with the MAN flight's arrival at BTS.

It wasn't that long ago that BACX had a direct service on the EMB145s to VIE. Now that FlyBe have taken over from BACX, it seems that they only serve certain Austrians destinations for ski/hiking type purposes at certain times of the year. And then Austrian/Tyrolean come to MAN for a few weekends per year as well on ski routes.

[steve wilson]

BACX direct to VIE was also horrifically expensive. Maybe thats why the operation ended. BA direct from MAN to VIE was £120 more expensive than going via LHR. I wound up going via MXP with Alitalia. It was the same price for two people to go with Alitalia than one person with BA via LHR and as for the direct price from MAN with BACX then you could go to Atlanta with DAL for less.

I think this was a cynical ploy with BACX to force pax to go via LHR to protect their precious LHR slots.

Steve

[Vuelo]

LS announce DLM services for next summer.

[Mr A Tis]

Standard BA ploy Steve. I have done a few MAN-MAD trips & prices via LGW/LHR were ALWAYS cheaper than on the BACX direct flights.

As for VIE, pre BACX ERJ service,it wasn't that long ago that Lauda operated a CRJ200 twice a day & for the most part they were always pretty full.

[Porky Speedpig]

Standard industry practice surely? People expect to be incentivised for taking a longer, indirect routing. Direct flights always likely to be more expensive.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

According to the Ryanair thread, the airline has today announced a new scheduled service between MAN and CAGLIARI.

[OltonPete]

Shed

I don't think it is announced yet but it has appeared in the UK version
on the FR site (in the OLCI), which is usually a very good sign.

Pete

[Vuelo]

Appearing on front page of their website now.

Starts 29th March 2009.

[MUFC_fan]

Starts 1 April

[AndyH52]

Twice a week (Wed & Sun) arr 16:25 dep 16:50. That'll help keep that passenger figures up... :E

[Ringwayman]

Every little helps. Two 738s per week operating for 6 mths gives total capacity of about 21000 seats. Which is roughly equivalent to half what Air Nostrum could carry on a daily service to MAD over a complete year.

I recollect that it's meant to be 4 new destinations per seasonal timetable change, so I reckon that 3 more routes will be revealed over the coming weeks.

[AndyH52]

It will indeed help, but at average FR loadfactors 21000 seats equates to around 17800 pax which is roughly the same capacity as a return J.41 serice every day. Not really going to help fill the void being left by the capacity reductions on the IT front and not the level of new business MAN should be aspiring to. At the end of the day by encouraging the loco's MAN is in danger of helping put the final nails in the coffins of the 'full fare' carriers it should be trying to attract and support if it wants to truly be a regional hub.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Have to disagree with your last statement Andy. A "full fare" airline will struggle to regularly fill aircraft at MAN if it is perceived that the ticket price is over inflated. There may well be the greatest concentration of wealth outside London within 5 miles of the airport, but those people on the whole, as well as the rest of the population of Greater Manchester and surrounding area are not prepared to pay over the odds for a plane ticket.

In fact, the only feasible chance of a regional hub is if the airport embraces the lo-co's. BA have retrenched to LHR - I would not be surprised if they chose to scale back the eurofleet at LGW even - the rest of the UK has to go to London to travel BA. BMI are still operating out of the regions, but have very valuable slots at LHR that they need to protect, so their emphasis quite rightly is there for the time being. FlyBe are about the closest to operating MAN as a hub and there is room for a.n.other.

The other issue, of course, is the question regarding "hubs"...is that really the most workable solution to aircraft management? Time will tell.

[Betablockeruk]

Has it not surprised anybody that MAN has no direct link to Vienna?

Flights to Vienna courtesy of Air Sylhet, and onward to Dubai. Check out the website news (http://www.airsylhetonline.com/news.aspx) but be ready for the music blaring round the office :uhoh:

[Mr A Tis]

The cheapest return fares MAN-VIE with Air Sylhet is £351 so don't expect a stampede.

[Vuelo]

Does anyone know how you can book SV MAN-GVA tickets? I understand they are offering returns for around 80 quid, but can't get an answer on how to bok them!

[Betablockeruk]

www.saudiairlines.com

£156 return.

[Ivan aromer]

There are no direct flights from MAN to NCE during the winter when jet2 finish. anybody know why, the loads are good and most (Man) people dont want to go sqeezy via LPL

[G-STAW]

just been told EI are on the verge of making an annoucment regarding MAN, anyone heard anything?

G-STAW

[TURIN]

Etihad are sending a 777-300ER in on 27th.

Dunno why. Publicity perhaps. :confused:

[MUFC_fan]

Seems it is being sent from now on.

I looked at the Etihad website a few weeks ago and it showed the 77W all through to the summer IIRC.

[Ian L]

MAN - GVA with SV can be booked on OPODO. I'm flying with them tomorrow, £95.17 single.

[eggc]

How about EI to take up MAN-ORD when BD finally give up the ghost on long haul ex MAN ;)

[steve wilson]

Are BMI pulling its long hauls out of Manchester then? No doubt the A330s will be off to Heathrow then !?!

[eggc]

BMI apparently have an announcement tomorrow as well as EI. I think BMI's 330's will be based ex LHR by S09 ! 2+2=3

[Fuel Boy]

I hope they don't do anything mad, I have booked tickets to LAS in May and I don't want to have to go through LHR.

I hope it isn't to bad for those who work for BMI fingers crossed

Fuel Boy

[Vuelo]

Rumours at MAN today are very strong that BD might well be moving the A330s to LHR, but I have not heard anything about EI taking over.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Well if they do and (I hope not) then they will not be able to come back and retake those MAN slots.:ugh:

[akerosid]

EI has recently entered into interline agreement/codeshare with UA; possible, if not probable, that there's a co-ordinated move here: BD out (well, to LHR) and EI in.

EI is talking about setting up a cabin crew base in the US (which has been greeted with less than complete enthusiasm by EI staff), so maybe this is involved as well; the new CC bases will be SFO and two others, which I can't recall (JFK and ORD, I think); if these are correct, two - ORD and SFO - are UAL hubs.

EI has two new A330s coming next year (although it is losing two older ones) ...

[Vuelo]

You appear not to be able to book MAN ORD on BD from the end of March on Expedia....or is it me?

Oh dear....

[toledoashley]

If think it is just you - I am getting BGI for May, so could it just be ORD?

[bmi expat]

You appear not to be able to book MAN ORD on BD from the end of March on Expedia....or is it me?

Oh dear....

My god, have you even tried booking on flybmi.com, I'm sure that would be more reliable then expedia??? Flights are bookable to ORD throughout Summer 09. I love the scaremongering on here....!!!!!!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Don't know what's happening at MAN at the moment??:confused:

With BA's last NY flight tomm, And now widespread rumours of BD pulling out??

Who's next??:hmm:

MAN could turn into a 'Loco' Airport quite easily??:ugh:

[aa0678]

So, what's the craic with the BD announcement? Any news today? Was out of town.....

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Nothing in Concrete, But the BD decision seems likely under the 'Eco Climate'

If I worked for MAN Airport I would be 'unhappy' with BD.

[ManofMan]

MAN could turn into a 'Loco' Airport quite easily??

Couldnt agree more .....

All we need now is for American, Continental, Delta, US Airways, Qatar, Emirates, Etihad, Lufthansa, KLM, Air France, Swiss, SN Brussels, Finnair,SAS Singapore, Virgin, Pakistan, Libyian, Cyprus, Air Malta, Turkish, Saudia etc etc to up stick and leave overnight and it will become said "LOCO" airport

O dear....get a grip :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[TURIN]

Did the BA 1502 get a rainbow shower on arrival this morning?

Goodbye BA.

It's been......emotional. :(

[Guest 112233]

Speaking as a Brummie, Turin - I bet that it is a sad day for all concerned. Another PPRUNER called BA, London Airways, a long time ago. He/She was right. Sadly BA may become only a LHR/LGW operation in the future. Sad little bit of History for the NW of England.

CAT III

[Envoy320]

Are Ba already now officially a LHR/LGW airline after the end of the MAN-JFK route?

was that not there last route originating outside of London....?

pretty poor effort all round really from the "national" flag carrier

[Skipness One Echo]

For the millionth time, BA couldn't make money outside London due to the legacy cost base they were saddled with from their days as a heavily unionised state carrier. The JFK competes with Continental to Newark and Delta to JFK, it was losing business and money. Worth remembering that a lot of Manchester passengers used MAN-LHR-JFK as well. We had similar issues when we had a direct GLA-JFK as the better option was often via London !

BA ain't the "national" carrier any more in that sense and it isn't 1979. Air France long haul is all at Paris, Swiss has a single JFK rotation to Geneva, everything else is in Zurich. That's the business model, that's the way they make money. It's a business not a charity. When BA flew from the regions they bled money nearly every single year. That market is best left to others who can do it profitably.

[Egerton Flyer]

No Skip your right, they are not the national carrier anymore. (in any sense)
They are the world's favorite airline!!:mad:

[Ringwayman]

If "a lot of Manchester passengers used MAN-LHR-JFK", it begs the question of how hard they tried to convince them to use the non-stop route. Unless the LHR routes are unprofitable and need the regions to make them profitable. If BA bled money from the regions, it begs the question how with a little tinkering and a bit of investment, Flybe can make money. Sorry, all BA were ever interested in was to get people going through Heathrow to the detriment of the all those outside of Oikland (i.e. south east England)

[BHX_SLF]

Ringwayman......

Have to agree with you.

As another regional example, when BA pulled out of BHX, the press articles from BA were around "lack of demand" for services....... yet when other airlines arrive they can fill the aircaft AND make money.

And before anyone harps on about yield .....yes the regions can fill aircraft up from the front. As an example, I understand that EK can fill business class quite easily with traffic via their DXB hub.

Also, at the "back of the bus" on point to point routes, money is still there to be made if you have the right operating model. BA appear to be taking the easy option to not tackle their high cost delievry model and hope they can continue to make money at LHR ....how long will it last ? With greater competition at Heathrow and a newer generation of carriers moving into the regions offering great choice ..... it will be interesting to see what business is left for BA in say 5 years time.

It amazes me that other airlines can make it work in the regions, yet BA struggled.

I read an earlier post that says about BA saying "it's not the national carrier and its not 1979" .... perhaps BA need to learn it's not 1979 !

Just my 2p's worth ....:ouch:

[Skipness One Echo]

Compare the Emirates cost base with the BA one, the Qatar cost base with BA etc. These are newish airlines with no legacy union issues. Compare the then self handling BA with third party handled almost everyone else. In a tough market it all adds up !

Delta operate connections through their JFK and Atlanta hubs
Continental their Newark hub
US Airways through their Philadelphia hub
American through their Chicago O'Hare hub
Emirates through their Dubai hub
Etihad through Abu Dhabi hub
Singapore through their Changi hub
Qatar through their Doha hub
even
KLM through their Schipol hub
Air France through their CDG hub
and
BA through their Heathrow hub.

Outside the BMI and Virgin beach fleet routes, the only long haul other route is BMI to Chicago which shared through United ( I think ) and is on the verge of suspension.
The old BA European routes and now operated by flybe and easyJet amongst others with the option remaining to book over LHR of you like BA miles. The BA JFK stuck out like a sore thumb and costs rose when the crew base at Manchester was closed. Also BA could not offer onward connections beyond JFK. Times change alas, even the long standing American service which used to be remarkably profitable is now looking weaker due to the increased competition going 5 weekly this winter. Actually having read that above list again, that's actually a damn good choice of airlines (!)

[Ametyst1]

Why all the BA bashing, if the Manchester to New York route is so lucrative why have London Airways Mark 2, BMI or London Airways Mark 3, Virgin Atlantic, jumped in to operate the New York route.

And while we are at it, why don't these airlines open a hub at Manchester and add routes to Lisbon, Madrid, Vienna, Warsaw, Rome, Moscow, Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Johannesburg, Los Angeles et al if the market is so strong in the North of England.

The reason BA, Cathay, Qantas, Air Canada, Gulf Air, South African and Malaysia have pulled out over the years is precisely the that Manchester does not produce adequate passengers paying the premium fares. Fact!!!!

[The96er]

What I find interesting about this is that when BA first announced the suspension of the route, the reason stated was that it is LOSING money, now though, the official line from BA is that it is being pulled because of falling premium passenger numbers and NOT because it is losing money. Since the operation at MAN was handed over to a handling agency - who I work for, the premium pax figures have remained roughly constant at about 13J-booked/day. The back end is always full as is the belly of cargo - oh, and it has been privately admitted the the route IS profitable by BA's own senior management. Admittedly, and as Skipness has stated - not having a crew base in MAN has inflated the cost somewhat which doesn't help.
By the way - the forward bookings for the LGW-JFK have been described as somewhat Disappointing and Delta are to reintroduce a 767 on the MAN-JFK route for the Christmas period I hear. :ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Qantas was not given the option BA told them that they had to go as all pax were to be fed through London and I think Cathay the same, Cathay would have returned had they not had problems with Manchester/Moscow sector which BMI objected to
South African pulled the route so they could return to New York then when they did have an aircraft available they were losing money hand over fist

Air Canada were forced off the route by the competition in Air Transat, Zoom and Thomas Cook on a route that is very seasonal to say the least and very price sensitive

I think most airlines will struggle on long haul for probably another year or so
until we come out of the recession both here and in the US.

Ian

[caro340]

Does anyone know if Air Canada will reconsider Manchester now that Zoom have gone?

[Ringwayman]

Skipness, I take that there is no AA presence at JFK then? Or was it my mistake to believe that BA and AA could codeshare beyond each other's hubs in their home countries, plus the regional long-haul (which for reasons best known to themselves, BA didn't want the MIA link to have). Now we have the prospect of anti-trust immunity, there are rumours that there are tentative plans drawn up for AA's operations to go to 2 757s to ORD, 1 to BOS (can't see it happening). 4 weekly to MIA in winter and a daily 757 to JFK (the airport that AA has no presence at?! so who's going to feed it!?).

The premium pax for the Manchester catchment area is there, but BA chose not to put them through MAN as LHR is a weak market for them and needs as much help as possible.

If BD withdraw from ORD (and the bucket and spade routes), then it'd be understandable given that the main focus was for the A330 to start long-haul ex LHR and then expand to MAN. The bucket and spade routes I'd expect VS to pick up in the mid-term; the 787 can't come quick enough as 747s are too big for the market.

Doubt AC will make a comeback to YYZ as Air Transat plans are for 4 weekly in April, 8 weekly for 3 weeks in May, 13 weekly from the last week in May to September and 11 weekly from October.

[Skipness One Echo]

[QUOTE]but BA chose not to put them through MAN as LHR is a weak market for them and needs as much help as possible. [/QUOTE

I hope you mean the Shuttle and not Heathrow in general. BA and AA are not, I believe allowed the same freedom to code share due as say NW / KLM as they don't have anti trust immunity ( yet ). I know what you are saying but I know that there are issues with code sharing and revenue sharing with AA.

As for QANTAS being told to get out of Manchester by BA....er no. There was a sound business case for BA to simply carry the passengers on the Shuttle as it was more cost effective than flying a less than full B747 up from LHR. If QANTAS had flown MAN-BKK / SIN- SYD then you might have a better case, but regardless, at the end the B747-400 went via LHR so there was no difference on flight time and with the connection allowed more time to get the blood flowing into your legs again after flying half way round the world. All in all Emirates is a better bet I would say.

[spannersatcx]

The reason BA, Cathay, Qantas, Air Canada, Gulf Air, South African and Malaysia have pulled out over the years is precisely the that Manchester does not produce adequate passengers paying the premium fares. Fact!!!!

Actually Ametyst1 that's not why CX pulled out as you say, so not a FACT!!!!

[AUTOGLIDE]

With BA, the tragedy with BA is the loss of jobs/relocations amongst the remaining BA Engineering staff and anyone else affected in that worst of ways.
As for the operation of the flight, who really cares? Leave them to LHR if that's what they want. There are numerous other carriers to the US from MAN including NYC, and Newark is arguably a better airport to use for Manhattan than JFK anyway and this is where Continental go. BA are not a particularly good airline, not a particularly good employer (yes, been there), and the loss of a single daily return flight to the US isn't really a big issue for an airport with an annual pax figure IIRO 25 Million PA. Will free up a morning arrival slot for someone else.

[comet 4b623PW]

CONGRATULATIONS to British Airways management team on it's now complete destruction of a once small hub operation.

If I am not mistaken Manchester has now becomes one of the busiest airports in Europe without any international routes flown by a former national airline of that country.

To me it feels that BA's management has wanted to get to the present route situation for years and has systematically being pulling apart the base it once had here. For a number of years it has felt that wrong decisions were being made and that hardly any effort or investment was being made to change the situation around. When you consider the small amounts of investment the regional operations of BHX and MAN have received over the years it is really no surprise that we have ended up where we are today.

The sale of BA connect to Flybe even seemed to other opportunities that were not grasped it could have retained some of it's cabin crew and used the small team for the JFK service and come to aggrements with the unions to take over the crewing of night stopping shuttle flights.

Many airlines use Boeing 757 across the Atlantic, two could well have taken over from the B767. This would have offered a greater flexibility to the travelling public, deals with Flybe to feed these flights from around the UK as code shares would have helped fill the extra daily flight.

[Vuelo]

If I am not mistaken Manchester has now becomes one of the busiest airports in Europe without any international routes flown by a former national airline of that country.



Isn't Billund still running?

[Ian Brooks]

Its only a franchise not real London Airways

Ian

[Certa Cito]

without any international routes flown by a former national airline of that country.


Flybe is now the national carrier :E

it could have retained some of it's cabin crew and used the small team for the JFK service and come to aggrements with the unions

No thank you very much!! BA (in toto) didn't want us as BA Connect employees and we are certainly better off as a business without the overhangs of BA Cabin Crew and their wretched agreements.

Best thing BA ever did for BA Connect employees was to cut them loose. Now we are free to thrive and make a profit.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
CONGRATULATIONS to British Airways management team on it's now complete destruction of a once small hub operation.

Reply
I like that one.:D:D

[mickyman]

Well done BA for finally seeing the benefit of concentrating
the business from a capital city.
The people bemoaning the loss of this service are not qualified
to pass judgement on any aspect of operating an airline - as is
evidensed by the posts previous.......the wailing wall of
Manchester on pprune!!

Manchester has a good selection of International carriers and
should concentrate on keeping these for the time being.

The fact that the airport saw itself as something other than
a regional base for too many years - re lack of speed in
welcoming lo-cost operators - will effect/has affected its
performance.It is now trying to play catch-up with these
operators who can now take their time in choosing what
routes to open up - if any.
Stagnation in growth terms has come to be the story of the
last few years with services coming and going on a regular
basis.

The real world has bitten back at last and the challenge is
on for the next few years to keep service levels as now.
ie:stagnation.

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

Agree. The BA regional operations were a catastrophic money loser for years. The business model was unworkable and no one had the balls to stem the flow of red ink until Willy said "ENOUGH".

Note that neither BMI or Virgin rushed in to fill the gaping hole left because outside of London, the easyJet / flybe business model is the way forward.

London is the only place BA can ever make money, not a criticism, just a fact.Look forward not back.

[Ringwayman]

Err...ther'e no spare VS equipment so would hardly expect them to step in at a moments notice, and what they do have is just too large. As for BD, any displacment of the A330s will be for a medium term thing only; but the biggest thing that counts against them is the complete mix and match of service that they operate and not one standard product.

As for lo-cost operations, then I daresay some nearby airports may be a little bit worried now that this appears to be chosen method of expanding pax numbers quite quickly.

As for BA, one only has to look at how LH somehow operates long-haul out of 3 cities. For crying out loud, even DUS has got a handful of them. This only reinforces how disinterested BA was - i'm sure when just franchise operations were at the regions, the airlines that operated them made profits...but as soon as BA makes an offer too good to refuse to the owners and so buys them, the same routes become unprofitable. If they were clever, they could have anticipated Ryanair and easyJet branching away from London and plonked Go at MAN to get a big foothold in the market.

[Going loco]

The only relevant comparison between LH and BA is that they both strive to make a return on shareholder's capital and deploy their aircraft where they feel this is best achieved. That LH have identified DUS as one such location is utterly irelevant to what BA have identified with regard to profitable opportunities ex-MAN. It's a complete red herring.

[Skipness One Echo]

As for BA, one only has to look at how LH somehow operates long-haul out of 3 cities

The problem with a lot of wannabes and plane spotters is that they have no business acumen and can't navigate a balance sheet.....
Germany has a different demographic from the UK. The country is a Hell of a lot bigger and has a more spread out demographic. I am sure you selectively leave out KLM and Air France, Singapore, Swiss, Cathay Pacific etc who mainly operate from one core focus city. The UK is very heavily biased towards the South East of England and that gives London a massive advantage. BA has a massive investment in premium traffic and Executive Club beholden to a legacy cost base from it's nationalised days.

BA Manchester never made money with the BAC111. BA Manchester never made money with the B737-200s. BA Manchester never made money with the B737-500. Oddly enough, British Regional did quite well operating as BA, however when that firm was bought out for valuable Heathrow slots, the cost base went through the roof, the J41s were uneconomical from day one in the BA fold. It's a horrible fact of life in a large company. Add legacy BA Handling costs to the new nimble locos nibbling away your margins piece by piece and there is no way of stemming the flow of red ink.

The clue is the lack of stampeding Virgin and BMI flights desperate to fly long haul from the regions. As has been stated ad nauseum, the best long haul from the regions is run by those with a big old hub at the other end like Emirates and Continental.

[TURIN]

The people bemoaning the loss of this service are not qualified
to pass judgement on any aspect of operating an airline

Neither are some of those applauding the decision! :=

[Shyted]

London is the only place BA can ever make money, London is the only place BA can ever make money, not a criticism, just a fact.Look forward not back.

Skipness one echo,

Of coarse your right, but what BA has to remember is that people in the rest of the UK do have a choice. Not a criticism, just a fact.

Shyted

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
The fact that the airport saw itself as something other than
a regional base for too many years - re lack of speed in
welcoming lo-cost operators - will effect/has affected its
performance.It is now trying to play catch-up with these
operators who can now take their time in choosing what
routes to open up - if any.
Stagnation in growth terms has come to be the story of the
last few years with services coming and going on a regular
basis.

Reply
I totally agree - Mickyman.:D

MAN is getting to be a 'Merry Go Round' at the moment, With different carriers taking it in turns to - start a service then finish.:confused:

There doesn't seem to be much 'StabilityPlan' anymore in any of MAN's Scheduled services - mainly Loco.:=

MAN can beat LGW pax numbers wise on a good day, And has done many times.:cool:

But people seem to like the sound of LHR better than anywhere else
And always have done.

Can't Sir Michael - see that there is only so much capacity in a day at the Row??:ugh:

Does he want his fleet of 35+ machines queing up all day every day for T/off Burning more fuel on taxi??

I think He's obsessed with LHR & has lost his direction....:*

Youv'e got to remember LHR & LGW is not everyone's immediate priority Dep point, And the population of the NW & NE do not think it to be practical to traipse 150 + miles to the Row to go to NY??

They want to go from an Airport 20/30/50 miles away = MAN.

The Joe public has no interest in how many slots BA or BD need to keep at the Row, That's irrelevant to them.

Their immediate priority is a = Quick, Safe, Easy, Dep Airport point.

When MAN Airport signs up the Airlines, There needs to be a clear understanding with both parties.

But what is happening, As I Mickyman & others have said is, The Airlines are not providing the Airport with any 'Long Term' Stability Plans.:=

Know reading what Skip One Echo has said about BA, It seems that BA did not put their 100% into the agreement with MAN.

They ran a NY service just for the principal, Wether it was making money or not.

Maybe a 'Sweetner' for the MAN Directors.:*

A way of keeping in with the crowd??

I take my hat off to FR, MOL usually 95% sticks to what he promises, And Delivers, FR will give MAN the boost it needs.

Also TCX, MON, and TOM - have always being loyal and faithfully commited to basing a number of aircraft 365 days a year for many years and will continue to.:D

I feel Jet 2 could offer more stability, But with LBA 60 miles away they don't have to it's just a stepping stone base.

I don't think Jet2 will offer any commitment to MAN??

Think if BA want to finish completely, Then they should say so - And go running back to the Row and let MAN clear up their mess.:hmm:

EZY won't last, I think they will be overwhelmed by FR, And will return to 'native' LPL.:confused:

The number of 'Thoroughbred' Operators that have dep MAN is - Abismal to say the least.:mad:

I could stand on the car park roof in 1994/5 and count X amount of Airline liveries - But not many now.:sad:

Okay, We have EK, EY, SQ etc but we need 10 more like these:D

Like I said in an earlier post, If MAN Mgt don't get a grip on this 'stability' issue, Then MAN we'lll all be travelling by 'Loco':hmm:

[MANFlyer]

Sorry, Skipness One Echo me old mucker, but BA's MAN-JFK was not losing money when it was pulled. Far from it, it was profitable at the time. It was pulled because BA believed they could make more money by canning it, moving a few birds around and starting LGW-JFK, It's as simple as that mate.

As for BD, I am very surprised the Caribbean routes are still going to be honest. I've flown there 4 times up front in the last few years and each time around half the cabin was staff.

ORD is a little different, particularly yield wise. Although I was on the 705 a couple of months ago and it was half empty up front, which was handy as some of the new flat seats were goosed. I'm on it again next week and there is still plenty availability.

[BAladdy]

BA's JFK/MAN in the last year was losing money. The main problem with the route was the 767 didn't not suit the service year round. At times and for most of the year a 757 would have been perfect but this aircraft for BA is not a longhaul aircraft and configuring one 757 for MAN/JFK would have in itself been a waste of money (Something that was looked into). BA changed the aircraft from the one off special configuration with J and M seats to the newer dusk aircraft with AVOD to try a lure pax but they didn't want to pay the fares.

In the Marketing, Commercial and Revenue Management departments at BA the MAN/JFK was well known for a higher number of request by exec card holders to use their redemption tickets on it. Even though revenue management would only put a few seats aside on the flight for these tickets, some pax would waitlist and wait to the day before to see if they could get confirmed at the last minute. If there was seats available 36-48 hours before they would confirm the bookings to boost the load factor.

Yes it was busy going to JFK on a Wed/Thu/ Fri and the odd Saturday and coming back Sat/Sun and Mon. However the other sectors were quiet and the yields on those sector were dire. BA could not get the yields required to run the service profitably.

At the end the flights were going full. When BA announced the route was being axed the people of MAN and the surrounding area started using the route more. However It was too late.

It has been said for a long time " If you are not going to use a route prepare to lose it"

When it comes to MAN future I think the likes of EY and EK are there to stay. VS may scale back there winter ops but MCO will always do well. CO and DL not sure there is a market for them both to survive, but I hope I am wrong.

With SQ adding A380's at LHR and their star alliance partner BMI operating frequent flights from MAN to LHR I think and I hope I am wrong that if any more routes are to go it will be SQ to SIN.

[TURIN]

Aaaaaarggghhhh!!!

It's LOSE not loose!!!:\:\:\:\:\

Their, not there! :\:\:\



I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll crawl back under my rock.

[Ametyst2]

Virgin Atlantic are pulling the Manchester to St. Lucia route from 26 March. Not just for the summer either

[parky747]

If it was identified that a B757 sized aircraft was more suitable for the BA MAN-JFK service then why didn’t they explore this opportunity and run it? BA are willing to invest / waste yet again millions in trying to make Openskies work, which clearly isn’t and I bet will be withdrawn before it reaches its first anniversary. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[The96er]

The BA MAN-JFK route also carried between 5 - 8 tons of cargo per day !!, not something a 757 would of been well suited to.

[eggc]

...it'll all fit on Connie or Delta, as will the pax. The route is still there and i am sure that the american carriers will benefit and grow as a result of BA's withdrawl. Roll on AA/DL triples to ORD & JFK :)

[The96er]

....Errrr, no, Delta and Continental both use 757's the JFK and EWR, so very little cargo uplift there.

[G-STAW]

btw Continental are reverting back to a singal 767-400 within the coming months


G-STAW

[Daza]

Hi guys
I don't think that you will ever persuade some of the London-centric posters on this site. Birmingham had the second highest proportion of business travellers on its BA flights after Heathrow ( I worked in revenue management for BAR and Connect). Still we were told that services didn't make money. That says more about the airline and its inability to manage costs than the travel preferences of regional business and leisure travelers.
So Manchester, Birmingham and the Scottish Airports have lost BA international services, who cares? BA service is mediocre at best, they have an terrible record for timekeeping, lost luggage and customer service. Lets welcome new airlines to the UK regions and let BA consolidate and consolidate at its three (for now) London bases.
Daza

[Skipness One Echo]

Roll on AA/DL triples to ORD & JFK

Plane spotters fantasy. In the real world, American are being "encouraged" to retrench to Heathrow and not rock the OneWorld boat by having an oddball long haul from Manchester. For the first time, it's not even daily this winter, so no longer reliable for business travellers. This is the sly and dishonest way of withdrawing a route over the mid term.
As for Delta B777s, I'll file this next to the NWA B757-200s to Detroit.

I worked in revenue management for BAR and Connect
Sterling job peeps, really amazing work there.

Birmingham had the second highest proportion of business travellers on its BA flights after Heathrow
Think we both know this is untrue, the front was full of upgrades. Revenue management were tearing their hair out over the unwillingness of their regulars to use the direct service and fly from Birmingham and Glasgow. Certain other parts of BA ( think Exec Club cardholders )kept booking them on bigger aircraft over LHR to keep the Shuttle loads and the JFK load factors up. Left hand right hand etc etc

[roverman]

I've been around long enough to recall that BA withdrew MAN-JFK in 1981, apparently for good. They were flying it with B707s and VC10s at the time. But in 1985 they were back on the route in response to a growing long-haul presence at MAN, including the likes of Qantas and the imminent arrival of American Airlines and Singapore Airlines. BA stayed on the route and grew it from 3 x weekly to daily. There were changes of equipment from L1011 TriStar, to B747 and DC10 following the BCAL take-over. In the mid 1990s it went to a daily B767 where it stayed until this weekend.

Could they come back again? Less likely this time, as they now have no domestic or European base at MAN any longer to support it, just the London links. OpenSkies? well never say never, but probably not. With onerous rumours surrounding bmi Atlantic services the future for MAN as a long-haul airport looks challenging for the foreseeable. I say that with great sadness as one who witnessed the heady years of the 1980s and 90s when MANs network spanned 5 continents. More than ever the city and its airport must work closely to ensure that it grows its profile as an international business centre, for it is those passengers at the 'pointy end' paying the bigger bucks who convince airlines to open long-haul routes. More Spinningfields / Media Citys / Knowledge Capitals required!

[Ametyst1]

I remember British Airways Holidays would always try and funnel any US tourists, visiting the UK on a fly-drive holiday, from New York into Manchester rather than Heathrow

[Ex Cargo Clown]

There's some ill-informed, London-centric garbage been written in the last few pages.

The only poster I CAN 100% Commend is comet.

BA senior management are absolute scum. They can easily make a profit out of the regions, but decide not to. The MAN-JFK flight had high load factors, and crucially high yield factors, so what did BA do, they tried to discredit it by "loaning" the aircraft out to BAR and then fiddling the figures to make it look worse than it was, even then it performed well. They also never marketed the route in the states, and often the fares via LHR were cheaper than the direct.

They forced IB, QF and AA off their MAN routes, just to keep everything via the OneWorld hub in LHR.

Crooked, imbecilic, incomprehensibly stupid. These words sum up BA management.I smile regularly when I read of the Cargo three being banged up for the price fixing, and I wouldn't shed a tear if WW had a horrible life-threatening illness either.

London Airways, please go out of business soon, and do the rest of the UK a favour.

[ManofMan]

[I][There's some ill-informed, London-centric garbage been written in the last few pages./I]

Spoken like a true un-biased gent !!!!

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Spoken like a true un-biased gent !!!!

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck............

[Skipness One Echo]

BA senior management are absolute scum. They can easily make a profit out of the regions

Well glad we've got that sorted out. All you need to do is tell all those people who tried to move Heaven and Earth to make it work and we're done. How many times do you guys have to be told? There is no pot of gold in Manchester!
Are Virgin moving in to fill the gap? Are BMI? No? OK let's drop a level. Flyglobespan? Jet2? No. Why is no full service British airline rushing into MAN to fill the void?

Excargoclown says fares via LHR were cheaper than the direct.
This is also true of CDG-LAX via LHR on Air France......tis quite common in the industry, you pay a premium to fly direct.

forced IB, QF and AA off their MAN routes, QANTAS don't need to fly a 747 LHR-MAN as BA carry that sector for them at less cost, a sound business decision. QANTAS return the favour in OZ to MEL and so forth, this is standard commercial practice in an alliance, in this case ONEWORLD. Iberia are free to return now BA are no longer on the route. Do we see Iberia returning? I suspect you may be right about American though.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

There is no pot of gold in Manchester!

Maybe not?

But I should think there should be at the least 1 UK full service carrier doing a NY.

I would have thought VS would have had a go at say 3 X a week, And running the MCO on the other 4 days?

Or whatever.

I still find it hard to believe there is a 7 day demand in winter for MCO?

The other main problem at MAN is the Airport is too busy pushing the 'Loco' services forward, FR & EZY And not paying as much attention to the full service marketing?

Will MAN be 'Flooded' out with 'Loco's by 2010?

There should be some 'Gold Pots' in MAN - It is one of our biggest cities.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Well glad we've got that sorted out. All you need to do is tell all those people who tried to move Heaven and Earth to make it work and we're done.

There is a pot of Gold in Manchester and one which BA were taking, and then re-diverting to the LHR coffers.

I can't speak for BHX, NCL, BFS etc, but I do know that BAR were making a profit out of MAN if you took into account the hideous amount of money that mainline took out through "internal accounting". It's a little like the famous LGW shorthaul paying for Concord's fuel on their budget, if BA want to discredit a station or route they do so through manipulating figures, a little like nu-Labour do.

And if you think MAN was a loss making station, have a wander through Waterworld one day, see the Coffee-quaffing morons sat out staring at the lake on their mega-MG grades with such amazing titles as "Bread Rolls Europe" etc..... Do they go on mainline's budget ?? Compare that to MAN I don't believe there were many surplus to requirement staff there...

As for the 1502/3 the oft quoted "poor premium yields" is absolute rubbish, I can categorically state that. In actual fact, it had better yields per seat than quite a few LHR routes, and most LGW ones.....

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I agree totally Ex Cargo Clown.

To be honest, I think the whole BA issue comes down to - Jealousy:=

The BA LHR Bods see MAN as a 'Threat' and as you say were transferring MAN's profits and turning them into LHR ones?

And Waterworld yes, I agree it's like another world.:hmm:

And to be honest, I can see BA in about 10 years time stating - Pulling LH out of MAN was on of the biggest mistakes......:zzz:

And the 'fuel' beancounters will be 'Kicking' themselves when they realise that they have an extra 767 queing up at 27L /R 7 days a week burning off 'precious' juice.:ugh:

Wheras, At MAN it was alot easier in hindsight.:*

And what about all the 'Olympic' traffic coming in, How saturated will the Row become?

[paul01942]

Who really cares if BA decide to take there operation to London does it really make any difference whatsoever? everybody across the UK has seen exactly the way BA has pitched themselves its just a case of dealing with it!
BA have never hidden the fact that all they want on there aircraft is First and business passengers you and I know that all to well, so them pulling out of Manchester was not that much of a suprise, BA are right there not getting enough business class pax out of Manchester so be it, they with drew the JFK flight, good ridance I say BA have not been the worlds favourite airline for over 10 years, everybody should sit back and appreciate the slow demise of what was once the pride of the world, if you need to fly, then book on airlines that really want your business.

"stop harping on about poor little Manchester losing BA its getting tedious":ugh:

[GayFriendly]

Seems to be a heated issue. I am a not a regular on this thread but have been reading comments with interest about BA and the regions.

I have no idea if BAR/Connect made money at MAN or indeed any other station. But I do remember whilst working at BHX in Operations between 1999-2002 that Eurohub (T2 as it is now) was never particularly busy (except Mon morning and Fri evening) and the BA operation there had an over-bloated, unionised 'BA will never pull out, as if' feel about it among the staff - yes, great facilities and good service but lots of staff and not many pax. Since BA departed BHX forever, the departures board in T2 thanks to FR now looks a whole lot more interesting, there sure is more pax and to the average Joe on the street you can now fly to far more places in Europe than ever before you could with BA. Does the average Joe really care what airline it is as long as it flies to where they want at a price that suits?

OK so MAN is a busier and bigger airport and cannot be directly compared to BHX. And you have just lost a high profile service - but you still have Continental and Delta to NYC and other long haul flights with quality international carriers that BHX can only dream of. Move on cos BA sure have :ok:

[comet 4b623PW]

Here are my thoughts.

Domestic -non London virtually no chance,very remote possibility that it will purchase either flybe or bmi regional.

London- possible increase in frequency to LHR in effort to try and top up some flights. LGW i see little change here.

Continental Europe-little chance here, no spare aircraft, AF/KL, LH/LX/SN, SK all well entrenched. Possible increase in code share with flybe.

Long haul- Opportunities here at present. Will see nothing from BA for at least a few years. Boeing 787-8 game changer. Believe are to be fitted out with no first class. Possible routes LAX or SFO not both, HKG if no service by CX. JFK if market not over saturated by then. Pakistan market if political scene quietens down.

If LHR third runway is denied or cancelled by a change of government BA will have to change tact again.

Options.
1. Increase size of aircraft- more A380's

2. Expand in continental Europe- Openskies

3. Expand in UK- Manchester prime candidate, 2 runways, slots available
large catchment area.

A question for Skipnes One Echo was it cheaper to fly LHR-MAN-JFK

[Railgun]

London- possible increase in frequency to LHR in effort to try and top up some flights. LGW i see little change here.


No chance, imho the shuttles are on borrowed time. They will be gone within a few years.

[Shyted]

Railgun,Skipness

If the shuttles are on borrowed time how are BA going to feed pax into there precious hub.
I am lead to believe that KLM and Lufty are doing exeptionally well from MAN to there hubs in AMS and FRA......WHY, because they are more loyal to there passengers and they have far better airports to transit through than that hell hole off the M25.

Manchester people are sick of there national carrier letting them down so are going for the far better option .

Now go and take a two mile walk off a one mile pier......

[Skipness One Echo]

I never said the Shuttles were on borrowed time. They are essential to the business model of feeding T5 long haul from the UK and Europe. This thread is degenrating into personal attacks which is a shame. I strongly disagree with a lot of what has been said but I always try to back it up with some information.

I can see BA in about 10 years time stating - Pulling LH out of MAN was on of the biggest mistakes..... What are you basing this on? Do you understand the current hub feeding BA business model? This is also the reason Gatwick is being scaled back. Legacy unionised cost base cannot really compete against easyJet head to head.
I would have thought VS would have had a go at say 3 X a week, And running the MCO on the other 4 days? Or whatever.

You cannot run a multi million pound business like that. OR WHATEVER ?!?!? Putting 3 747s on that route would only attract leisure passengers on a three weekly basis and that is commercial suicide.

Manchester people are sick of there national carrier letting them down so are going for the far better option It's not "there" it's "their", and even correcting your grammar your facts are in error. BA has been a PLC since 1987, has been listed for 20 years. They are not anybodys national carrier except the shareholders.

Please don't think I'm having a go at MAN, I like the airport and fly through it often enough. I still think it has a fine network of routes, but the future has to be commercially sustainable. BA at Manchester was always going to be massively overshadowed by London. Glasgow and Edinburgh got flyglobespan to breath new life, Leeds got Jet2. I think that UK registered hopes for long haul at MAN lie in that arena in the medium term.

[1station]

Are there any other happenings at Manchester at the moment? It all seems to be BA BA BA at the moment :ugh:

[Betablockeruk]

Skipness, unfortunately you've hit a raw nerve (North vs South) and your sound business sense is falling on deaf ears - and that's from someone who would happily become independent from the South East :}. You're dead right but the truth hurts!

Anyway its the slot conference soon so expect a tsunami of rumours :uhoh:

[eggc]

Yep...the next subject could soon be BMI, BMI, BMI !!

Meeting due 5th Nov - your guess as good as mine as too the subject :}

[Ametyst2]

As nice as the regional cities of the UK are, you have to recognise that London is not just the capital of the UK but also a truly global city. It is a mega city alongside New York, Tokyo and Paris. Therefore BA, plus BMI and Virgin Arlantic, will always make more money out of Heathrow than anywhere else.

There are horses for courses, Heathrow has it role and Manchester has its niche.

[mickyman]

Some posters on here are spitting out there dummies
a bit far.........

Surely if all the MANchester-centric people on here are
right to bemoan BA's tactics,it will not be long before
a new/better operator starts some L/H from MAN?
You protest too much and show how hurt you really are
by BA turning their backs.They are a capitalist
pig of an airline and anything they want to happen ...will.
Why can you all not just accept the situation?
BA are just a product of our society.........in which
to lie and deceive to achieve a goal is the aim.

MM

[Envoy320]

Is everyone on here really that bothered that BA has pulled one flight from Manchester.....just one flight - JFK...

I knwo over the years lots of other flights have gone by the by but that's life aint it!!

Lots of things change.....

Seriously now....can we move on to something else? PLEASE!!!

[steve platt]

hear hear envoy 320. lets move on from ba. any one got any good news about man?

[AUTOGLIDE]

Skipness. Bit bemused. Glad to hear the shuttles are considered to essential to prop up BA's flights out of LHR. However, we don't want them, we don't want to fly via LHR, and judging by the reduction in pax on MAN-LHR routes that seems pretty widespread, we are not pawns in BA's master plan, we have many other better options. Just like EK and SQ picked up the pax to Australia from QF when they thought we'd all get on a shuttle to LHR, Lufty/KLM/AFA/EK/USA etc will pick up transfer pax from MAN who cannot fly direct (which personally I find rare).
Though I am amused at the thought that BA really thinks we're all going to fly via one of the western worlds worst airports, that obviously being LHR.
There will always be L/H from MAN. There is a lot of it now, it ebbs and flows but it will always be here. BA's tawdry little knackered old 767 is a nothing. Personally I wish BA would leave MAN completely, take the shuttles and just go, not needed anymore. The multitude of foreign carriers here do the job of air transport considerably better, and MAN will carry on. Outside of LHR the aviation world does not revolve around BA.

[Skipness One Echo]

Autoglide you are taking this way too personally. Let it go, if people want to fly BA let them, if they want to fly one of the alternatives that's fine too. Still nice to have one stop access to one of the biggest international networks in BA from Heathrow. I'm sorry people seem to be taking this to heart.

By the way, I'm a Scot not a Southerner. I remember BA having a big base of 748s and then ATPs at Glasgow, then a TriStar to JFK, a 767 to JFK, a 767 to Newark, a 757 to JFK / BOS, and finally back to a seasonal 767 to JFK. That was a route they never got right in eight years of operating!
All gone now.

As are all the staff at Speedbird Benbecula, Inverness, Sumburgh, Stornoway, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Birmingham and Manchester. Some moved on to the companies that came after BA on more realistic terms and conditions. ( also T & Cs that seem to wither as competition intensifies alas ). The sad fact is that to survive in a viscious market, BA retrenched to Heathrow. Tragic but necessary if you know how God awful BA internal structures are.

[Egerton Flyer]

Mickyman.

Never thought I would ever agree with you, but there's a first time for everything. Keep it up:ok:

Skippy.

This is the Manchester Thread and to expect people on here and the rest of the north west to accept everything that BA throw at them and still
fly BA via LHR at the expense of Manchester is ludicrous.:confused:

E.F.

[TURIN]

Legacy unionised cost base cannot really compete against easyJet head to head.

Not quite sure what that has to do with a regional longhaul route but I take your point.

All gone now.

As are all the staff at Speedbird Benbecula, Inverness, Sumburgh, Stornoway, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Birmingham and Manchester.

Now that is just plain wrong!

Aberdeen, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Manchester all have Cranebank's finest hard at work on the ramp and (1) hangar. :ok:

[Ringwayman]

Today's Independent has Simon Calder calling for a rebranding of a certain airline. But I guess the more laughable thing in the article is the BA spokesman comment's which are "We are fully committed to Manchester, giving customers in the North of England access to our worldwide networks at Heathrow and Gatwick with around 200 connecting flights a week".

I've already said about why BD and VS aren't in a postion to go into a bout of MAN expansion. Athough certain rumours now suggest the big BD pull-out is not going to happen, but a bit of a rebranding exercise which will see bmibaby disappear into regional/mainline operations plus a PR exercise about them being MAN's airline (the third one to claim that after EI and BA!)

[chiglet]

I've worked at Manch for 40 years, and when I arrived , I "heard" that BA said that "There will NEVER be a viable daily Trans Atlantic Service from Manchester".
Having seen the comings and goings, perhaps what was meant was, "There will never be a viable BA daily TAS from Manch"..
Eons ago, I stated [and was castigated for it] that the "Shuttle" was the worst thing that could happen to Manch.
As to the JFK....several friends who booked MAN-JFK were offered upgrades and all sorts of "goodies" to fly the Shuttle to LHR, and on to JFK.

[parky747]

I hope BMI don’t pull out and the integration of Baby into the mainline fleet is true. Manchester may get a full service airline again. Hope they get rid of the ancient B 737 too. Fleet of A319 would be nice:D

[Ametyst1]

Autoglide, I do not know how many times you fly BA, but British Airways is my first choice when I want to fly even if it means connecting through Gatwick and Heathrow. I have never had a problem with BA which is more than I can say for my experiences with Emirates (Yes Emirates!!!!), KLM and Air France.

And before criticising "the Western world's Worst Airport" I would look closer to home and get Manchester Airport to put there own house in order. No airport is perfect. However, Heathrow's Terminal 5 is now an absolute dream to fly and transit through

And before anybody screams, I do not work for BA, or BAA, I am not BA public relations, I am a passenger who likes the service and convenience of British Airways. There are millions of us you know!

[Ian Brooks]

Interesting now it looks as if it will be LH who have the say about BMI as Manchester is a major player with Lufthansa

We wait with baited breath and hope all works out well for all you guys/gals
always pleasure in dealing with you when I was in travel business

Ian

[Vuelo]

The LH takeover of BD, I feel, is a great move for MAN. Unlike BD, LH seem to like developing MAN and I can see them expanding the longhaul side - maybe even in co-operation with VS, as suggested in the MEN tlast night.

[Betablockeruk]

Airport chandeliers restored - News - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1076881_airport_chandeliers_restored)

Now that's airport news! :ok:

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
However, Heathrow's Terminal 5 is now an absolute dream to fly and transit through

Reply
It may be now, But when all the Olympic flights come in, It may not be??

There's a 1,000 sofas in T5.:zzz:

True, LH have an Exc track record, And I am sure they will be good for MAN.

LH seem to have the money to do it.:cool:

[Ametyst1]

I flew Manchester to Heathrow yesterday with BA and there were plenty of seats airside. They do not provide much seating landside but that is to discourage passengers from dwelling in the landside area and to go through security asap.

As for 2012, Heathrow will see some increase but not much as it is pretty much full to capacity anyway and the passengers will be travelling through all terminals not just T5. Anyway, I understand that Stansted will be the designated Olympic Gateway for the Athletes/Olympiad charter flights.

[davidjohnson6]

The bulk of the inward traffic for the Olympics will come over a relatively short period of time - e.g. a month, with the outward traffic concentrated a few weeks later. I would guess the UK Tourist Board will be trying very hard to encourage visitors to stay a little while before / after and see some of the UK - so this might spread the traffic out a bit.

In addition, it's commonly observed that when the summer Olympics comes to town, tourist numbers are often down, not up on the previous year. The rest of the world thinks 'City X will be jam packed and overpriced with the Olympics - let's go somewhere else this year and avoid the rush'

I would expect many people resident in the UK who would normally be abroad to stick around in the UK for a good part of the Olympics - they'll go away before or afterwards instead - similiar to Germans in 2006.

Further, is it really so bad if airports in the UK for a short period of time are operating at slightly over-capacity ? LHR managed to do so for years ! To spend billions to reduce delays with a non-recurrent cause averaging maybe 2 hours per passenger when the extra capacity might not be needed until 10 years later is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

[MANFlyer]

Taking the opportunity to take the disciussion away from the worlds favourite...

SQ have no intention of going anywhere near T1 for a good while. I am told MAG haven't bothered asking them for a while now 'as they know what the answer will be'.

[greatoaks]

Not suprised having come through T1 arrivals this morning ........what a :mad: hell hole.
Come on now ...finger -out and get the bloody place up to world class standards


What do the signs proclaim......... The T1 Experience.........No :mad:

[Fuel Boy]

What's going on in BA'S old hanger, anybody know?

Lights were on and the doors were open but couldn't see anything else.

Fuel Boy

[Vuelo]

Can someone explain to me why at T1 Arrivals you collect your luggage, you then have a circuitous passageway which at ots narrowest is about 1.5m wide, past a secutiy guard who seems to be doing nothing, through some non-operational automatic doors/varriers which are ridiculously narrow, then another zig zag through a shop to pass through automatic doors which today only one set out of three were working.


I agree, that the experience of arriving at T1 is hideous.

And Emirates want to put their pasengers through this from 1st May? Crazy.

[TURIN]

There is a really daft rumour knocking about the ramp that the BA New York service will return as a seasonal summer schedule. :rolleyes:

[GavinC]

My mate just traveled to NY on Continental and it was overbooked in both directions. Cant make money MAN-New York?????????

[Skipness One Echo]

My mate just traveled to NY on Continental and it was overbooked in both directions. Cant make money MAN-New York?????????

Continental have a massive hub in NewYork at Newark. BA don't hence only offer a point to point against an airline with many more connections on into the US. So yes, Cant make money MAN-New York as you rightly say.
Also you must learn pprune mantra 1.01
"Bums on seat mean squat if the yield is poor."

[MUFC_fan]

The problem with the BA MAN-JFK flight was that BA did not utilise the AA flights from the airport.

If they had codeshares on domestic flights with AA in the States, then the MAN-JFK flight would offer a lot more connections across America.

e.g) Travelling from MAN to MIA with BA. Search it on the website and I guarantee you would have gotten MAN-LHR-MIA whereas it could have been MAN-JFK-MIA with BA/AA.

[Momentary Lapse]

Vuelo

The guard is there to protect the airside/landside boundary from people who may have snuck into the corridor from arrivals with the intention of getting airside.

I agree the corridor is difficult, especially with a laden trolley. I gather some passengers like an extra opportunity to shop, even though it's outside the HMRC controlled zone, so is landside and offers no duty/tax free discounts.

Apparently it does quite well, which surprises me.

[Ringwayman]

BA couldn't be bothered to codeshare with AA when AA ran their MIA service. Perhaps it was because the MAN transfer pax were propping up a LHR service?

Memo to skipness, (MUFC might not know) it was not a point to point route:

"From 1 September 2003, British Airways began introducing over one hundred new codeshare destinations to its network following the finalisation of our codeshare agreement with American Airlines.

British Airways' flight codes have been placed on American Airlines' flights, beyond BA's current US destination cities to points in the US, Canada, Latin America and Caribbean meaning that there are a significant number of new routes bookable directly through ba.com."

Care to rewrite history? Just face it, BA wanted rid of the route and adopted peculiar accounting practices to make sure it went.

[Skipness One Echo]

For the avoidance of doubt I agree that BA wanted to dump the route. You are right, they would much prefer their MIA passengers over Heathrow.
There has always been an internal battle within BA that anything outside of Heathrow is diluting the "core" business of feeding long haul and Europe.

BA are gone where there is a market they will be replaced. People seem to be taking this personally. I seem to remember most of those code shares were ex Heathrow. Not every BA flight is a code share remember, and the BA1503 was not pushed internally within BA.
The faction that saw no future in long haul from Manchester won the day.

[greatoaks]

A question I must ask any of you Man insiders is:

How much retail revenue has been lost by the new security measures at Manchester.

Surely friends and family and enthusiasts must have contributed a huge amount to the coffers in the shops and T1 / 2 food halls.

It must have served imeasurable PR to the airport just from Sunday afternoon families etc.

We seem to have lost the welcoming atmosphere that is essential in this sector

It certainly now seems to be 'right youve dropped off your passengers now :mad: off


Please explain

[Mr A Tis]

Don't forget the land side staff who work in T1.
I used to spend a fortune in Boots, Smiths & the staff shop in T1. Since the terminal boundary changes I spend zilch at the airport, as we dont get time to get to T1 arrivals.
It's their loss.Likewise people seeing off pax is another loss.

Lastly, its time to give up on the BA JFK post mortem. They've gone. Good ridance too.

Now that KLM are to start a 3 x daily Liverpool-AMS service (from March 09), maybe EZY might wanna mussle in the MAN-AMS ? , although Baby have got their fingers in that one.

[harbour cotter]

I dont think its worth EZY moving in on the MAN/AMS route in the current climate, there would be much more worthy destinations.

The reason for the LPL/AMS KL service is merely to allow proper interlining. At the moment, LPL longhaul traffic is disipated through many routes, either train to the London airports, or less popularly through BHX and GLA. The majority however will travel to MAN and some of these will route MAN/LHR or LGW to wherever, but this is a more major hassle. Some use the LOCO from LPL to interline elsewhere. (MAD is particularly helpful (other than terminal wise) to South America), but you have the hassle of rechecking in, although by doing this you can save considerably on tax.

BA, in echoes of the MAN/JFK route, assumes that all LPL longhaul traffic merely travels to MAN to use the BA shuttle to LHR. That is just as mistaken viewpoint as assuming that all MAN originating traffic will remain loyal to BA and interline through LHR/LGW. MAN has many other choices available. BA is a behemoth unable to adapt to changeable market conditions or demographics, particularly if outside of London. Yet it appears to be putting in a lot of resources for a short event in 2012.

KLM has merely taken the good business opportunity to concentrate the majority of LPL longhaul traffic directly through its hub in AMS, which as a single terminal airport is particularly good for interlining.

I dont think this will be a major problem for traffic on the MAN/AMS route, or the EZY service from LPL to AMS

[Vuelo]

EZY will never operate MAN AMS, why would they?! WW, KL from MAN and shortly LPL, U2 already from LPL, LS from LBA....it would be a waste of time.

Their next routes will be more longer haul European destination, in my view Athens, the Baltics capitals or possibly Bucharest.

Also look out for more ZB routes this summer, they have confirmed they are to take delivery of two more A321s to their Manchester base in the Spring of 2009.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Yes, KLM and BMI Baby on the MAN-AMS route for 2009. But recall also that FLYBE announced afew weeks ago that they intended to launch services on this route in Spring 2009. I'm not sure whether the subsequent BMI Baby announcement shortly afterwards has altered those plans, but if not then there will be alot of capacity on the route. I would like to see profitable, sustainable service on this (and all) routes, not carnage with casualties at seasons' end. So I would respectfully agree that EZY would be well advised to avoid this particular bunfight and look to historically well-supported MAN short-haul routes which have been left unserved or barely served as a result of changes over the last couple of years.

SHED.

P.S. Mr A Tis - BA? Who are they? No sign of 'em on my radar! Only 'proper' airlines up here, you know. Agree with you completely.

[chiglet]

Shed,
What about the "Shuttles"? They have BA flt nos.....:E

[eggc]

*** CHILDISH ANTI BA RANT ALERT ***

If I ran MAN I would make life untenable for the BA Shuttles, with the aim of kicking them out full stop ASAP - both LHR & LGW - and I dont care if 2 million or more passengers per annum would be lost as a result.

That would annoy BA to death with all their ex-shuttle passengers either having using services from MAN, or transiting thru Europe on LH/AF/KL instead. Lets see how important MANs passengers really are when they dont connect thru LHR - see if BA cares then !

See I told you it was childish, but it would feel ohhhh so good.

Anyone got the power out there to quadruple their landing fees ???

[BombardierCR7]

Heraklion announced with Jet2 for S09. An extra Dalaman on a Friday also added and Sharm el Sheikh will continue through Summer 09.

[ETOPS]

eggc


with the aim of kicking them out full stop ASAP -

So how would I get to work :confused::{:{

[Going loco]

egcc - I don't understand the obsession with BA. BA are one of a multitude of airlines offering onward connections via their hub; as the example of journey times on MAN - Hong Kong routings below shows. If you hate BA service - fine. If you don't like terminal 5 - fine. If its too expensive or the journey is too long - that's fine too. But to *single* BA out as an airline that routes you via a hub is irrational when that's what all of their peer group too. BA are entirely consistent with the rest of their peer group in respect of how they serve MAN. If you are desperate to get rid of BA because they feed their hub, you should be desperate to get rid of everyone else that does too.

Manchester - Hong Kong via....

HEL 13h:30m
AMS 14:00
CDG 14:30
ZRG 14:35
LHR (BA) 14:50
MUC 16:25
LHR (*A) 16:25
DXB 16:55
DOH 21:40

[chiglet]

egcc,
see my post [412] re scuttles

[BDLBOS]

I too do not get this facination with regards to BA at MAN. They are gone!! If BA going means that the other carriers are put in a better situation, then that has to be good. BA may have promised MAN things in the past, but this is today. Would I like to see US pull my option of BDL-PHL-MAN, or DL via JFK/ATL or CO via EWR, hell no, let BA go, it is not as if they are a growing carrier, or shown any commitment to MAN for a long time.

Those die hard fans of BA who can afford to loose luggage should still have the option of LHR, and all its wonderous pleasures!!!

Now MAN needs to move on, ensure the success of the carriers it has, and forget history otherwise it may repeat itself!!

[eggc]

Going Loco...I did warn you !

ETOPS...dont worry too much its just a pipe dream !

Chiglet...Any good with lottery numbers ?

[mickyman]

egcc - (I see what you did there.........)

Turn all the equipment off
take off your clogs
loosen your flat-cap
turn your spotlight off
and lay down on a bed in the dark
for at least the rest of the evening!

When you wake-up you WILL feel better.

MM

[Hamburg 2K8]

Does anyone know how the new platform at The Station is coming along? Are they still on track to complete it by December?

Also, when is the work on the taxiway next to Pier B going to be complete? It seems to be going on for ages!

[Momentary Lapse]

On track? Great pun!

If I'd been a sleeper I'd have missed it. Oh no, this post has gone off the rails.

It's hit the buffers.

Etc.

:D

[OltonPete]

Talk about hitting the buffers and going off the rails or definitely not full
steam ahead, probably more "cuttings" to come and a signal that things are tough: -

From another site quoting Manchester Airport

"Pax - 1,825,157 down 9.80%
Movements - 17,552 down 12.27%
Freight - 11,980 tonnes down 26.62%"

End of quote

Pete

[TURIN]

I too do not get this facination with regards to BA at MAN.

Believe it or not there are still a handfull of BA staff still at MAN desperately hanging on to a job. A little tact perhaps? :ok:

[eggc]

Pax - 1,825,157 down 9.80%
Movements - 17,552 down 12.27%
Freight - 11,980 tonnes down 26.62%

Wow, passengers down nearly 10%, Freight down 26% !!! Those are BIG percentages. My local councils divi will be bugger all next year.

We are all aware that times are very tough economically presently, but MAN seems to be being hit particularly hard at the moment. Dare I even mention that there could be more bad news tomorrow :sad:

[Vuelo]

Those figures are terrible, but XL will have had an effect on them aswell.

Hopefully the new FR services will counteract them in the November figures.

I am afraid I think the days of passenger growth at MAN are over.

[BHX5DME]

Full details on airport website here :-

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/F06E08B2BFF9F70F802574F7004F4CD3/$File/Oct+08.pdf

Basically 200,000 less pax than Oct 07 (6,400 less per day) on 2,500 less flights (81 less per day)

I am sure other airports will be poor also !

BHX5DME

[Grizzle]

But recall also that FLYBE announced afew weeks ago that they intended to launch services on this route in Spring 2009

AMS now available for booking on the Flybe website :ok:

[bmi expat]

I think you'll find that MAN-AMS on flybe is via Southampton. They don't appear to have an option for flights MAN-AMS for next summer.

[virgin_cc_wannabe]

well, with bmi fcuking off to seal their doom at theifrow, what are the chances of UA comming in to regain their lost pax, or AA upgrading to accomodate more pax.

Maybe someone new?

if the rumours of AA downgrading to a B757 are true, we will have roughly a 67% decrease in capacity next year, compared to summer 08

[HZ123]

As someone from Fortress LHR / Waterside a couple of points. I was working at MAN for a few days last month and at various times of the day I was depressed at the lack of aircraft visible at any given time. The airport like LHR & LGW is far quieter than it was a couple of years ago.

As for BA pulling out all together it is oft spoken about here, the saving grace if that was the manner you viewed it, is that BA have nowhere else to go to at the present. If your flights could be subbed for longhaul 777 operated slots, we would leave you and the Scotish tomorrow but with the present loads and lack of fruitful destinations it will not happen. I saw on another thread yesterday that BA may return to SA next year, that would seem a positive move with revenue assured but not great. I do not know how BMI get on there but when we pulled out years ago there were lots of problems and issues which the Saudi's refuse / decline to address, I cannot imagine much has changed.

[Skipness One Echo]

If your flights could be subbed for longhaul 777 operated slots, we would leave you and the Scotish tomorrow
Without arguing with you HS123, would that not be counter-productive in that Heathrow works because of it's connectivity with the UK, Europe and the world. If they withdrew UK connectivity, wouldn't that shoot the long haul feed in the foot and simply be the biggest gift to the competition?

what are the chances of UA comming in to regain their lost pax,
None I would say. They left Glasgow as soon as they could connect with BMI through LHR and never looked back. The same goes for Air Canada, the alliances changed the way legacy carriers work. They can still serve the same number of destinations without......without actually flying there !

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

As far as bmi leaving goes, let us not forget that bmi employs their own staff at MAN. There are a lot of good people there that will quickly find themselves out of a job really soon and that is just terrible. SUre, a handling agent (most likely Aviance) will pick up the BD contract, but with the loss of long haul (and I would assume their lounge in T3), there will not be a requirement for so many staff to TUPE over to whomever gets the contract. Further complicate that with the rumored sales of bot bmi Regional and bmiBaby, and that is even FURTHER job losses. I can see BD at MAN becoming nothing more than LHR shuttles.

It is a shame really because I think that BD could have really set up a good hub and spoke operation out of MAN had they chose to do so. Yes I know that yeilds are not the same at MAN as they are at Fortress Heathrow (or DEATHrow as I prefer to think of that dump), but MAN certainly has a catchment area large enough to support an airline the size of bmi. Further that with the general dislike of anything London by anyone north of the Watford Gap, and I honestly feel that bmi has really blown it here.

So what happens to BD now? Just purely speculation here but I see BD Regional being gobbled up by flyBe and Baby either going to EasyJet or being swallowed up by the likes of Monarch or Thomas Cook. Chuck in the LH deal and interest by the great Bearded One, and I see those remaining aircraft being repainted very soon.

[zfw]

Well here it is then.................From the BMI site

Changes to bmi operations at Manchester
Following a review of long haul flying out of London Heathrow and Manchester, the following changes are being made:

From January 2009, our Heathrow-Riyadh service becomes six times a week on an A330, with three services continuing onward to Jeddah and three services continuing onward to Dammam

From Spring 2009, our Heathrow-Cairo and Heathrow-Amman services will be upgraded to A330 aircraft bringing our fully-flat bed Business Class and the biggest Premium Economy in the world (at 50” seat pitch) to our Heathrow hub

On 14 January 2009, unfortunately our Manchester-Chicago service will end

In April 2009, unfortunately our Manchester-Caribbean and Manchester-Las Vegas services will end
The decision to withdraw long haul services from Manchester was a very tough one, since we have operated these routes since 2001. However, sadly, the routes have never performed to the revenue levels we hoped to achieve, which combined with 2008 fuel price increases means we still see little prospect of improvement. In sharp contrast, our Middle Eastern long haul routes from Heathrow are performing exceptionally well and have lots of potential for growth in customer numbers and revenues, especially in the new premium cabins.

So time to take those 65 direct flights a week signs down now..and replace with about 45.................:{

[GLENO]

Fuel price increases???......Oil currently at $68.53 a barrel...... the lowest its been for ages........................

[Vuelo]

Airline pulls flights

5/11/2008


A MAJOR airline is pulling all its transatlantic flights from Manchester Airport and cutting around 140 jobs.

Bmi, which is Britain's second biggest carrier, will stop its services to Chicago, Las Vegas and the Caribbean from January and April next year respectively.

The news comes as a blow to the airport just a week after the final British Airways transatlantic flight to New York took off. In a letter to staff, bmi chief executive Nigel Turner said Manchester 'cannot deliver the levels of premium business that are available from the London market'.

He said passengers flying from Manchester were 'buying purely on price' leading to disappointing revenues for the airline's 'best-in-class product'.

The two Airbus A330 planes which are used on the routes will now operate on flights to Cairo and Amman from Heathrow. Mr Turner said: "To meet the clear demand for existing and future growth from London, we will transfer our two Manchester-based Airbus A330 wide-bodied aircraft to London, Heathrow. Consequently services from Manchester to Chicago will terminate on January 14, and services to Las Vegas, Barbados and Antigua will terminate after Easter 2009.

Job cuts

"We have been operating long haul services from Manchester since 2001, primarily as a result of our inability at that time to serve the USA from our main base at Heathrow.

"However, long haul services from Manchester has never performed to the levels that we had hoped and we see little prospect of change or improvements in their performance."

Up to 140 Manchester Airport-based jobs will be cut, mostly cabin crew, onboard chefs, supervisors and cabin service managers, as well as ground crew. Many will be offered positions at Heathrow.

Staff are being informed today, with managers flying to its US bases to explain the decision. German airline Lufthansa took control of bmi (formerly British Midland) last week, adding to its 30 per cent stake by buying bmi chairman Sir Michael Bishop's 50 per cent stake in the airline for around £318 million.

Bmi has 4,300 employees and last year had a turnover of £1,023m. The long haul services from Manchester began in 2001. They operate daily to Chicago, three times a week to Las Vegas, twice a week to Barbados and once a week to Antigua.

A spokesman from Manchester Airports Group, said: "We are obviously disappointed with the news from bmi but as we are all aware, the aviation market is shrinking as a result of the global economic climate and Manchester Airport is not immune.

Anticipated

"We fully anticipated today's announcement. We do, however, need to put this in context. The destinations affected by bmi's decision are already served by other airlines at Manchester Airport so passengers wanting to travel to those are still able to do so with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados.

"Manchester Airport still serves 52 long-haul destinations and 218 destinations worldwide. We've also had some good news this week with the arrival of a new airline, Air Sylhet, at Manchester Airport, operating services to Dubai and an additional four new destinations in India through Brussels Airlines."

The final BA Manchester to New York flight took off on October 25. It was the firm's last remaining direct international service from an airport outside London. The only flights BA now offers from regional British airports are shuttle services to Heathrow and Gatwick. A BA spokesman said the 44-year-old service to JFK Airport had been axed due to falling passenger numbers as a result of increased competition from other transatlantic carriers. US airlines Delta and Continental still operate transatlantic services from Manchester.

[GLENO]

Good News Air Sylhet????......clutching at straws there methinks!.....:} India? what via bloody Brussels? Great eh.?!!....:ugh:

[mickyman]

Bring on the Ryanair long-haul with B777's.........

MM

[Skipness One Echo]

BA spokesman said the 44-year-old service to JFK Airport

Wasn't there a big old gap in the 1980s after the VC10s left the fleet? It's not 44 consecutive years I'm sure.

[roverman]

Skipness - You are right, it wasn't 44 consecutive years. There was no BA MAN-JFK between 1981 (VC10s and 707s) and 1985 when the service re-commenced with KT (Br. Airtours) Tristars as BA183/182. Anyway, doesn't it go back further? - I'm sure that BOAC started service from Manchester to Idlewild via Prestwick/Gander/Montreal or similar route in the 1950s with Stratocruisers and DC-7s. A bit before my time - but only just! Sabena had of course beaten them to it.

[MANFlyer]

with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados.

It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...

[roverman]

The loss of bmi long-haul from MAN is no surprise yet a body blow to the short-to-medium term aspirations of an airport which has always seen itself to be something more than just a large regional airport. The familiar words about low yields reveal the limitations as to what an airport company can do to help make services profitable if the catchment market won't pay the required fares.

Yet for my money, MAN remains in the longer term the best placed (in every sense) UK regional to grow long-haul services. Given the apparent economics of full-service long-haul, I find it difficult to understand the fragmentation we have seen in recent years across the UK regions:- Emirates from NCL, PIA from LBA, Air India from BHX, US Air from BHX next year. Of course there are local niche markets for these services, but in aviation-geography terms these airports are rather near to Heathrow and very near to MAN, which has excellent surface access. One would question the economics of spreading cost and resources across what is effectively the same catchment in order to gain perhaps a crumb or two of market-share. Such fragmentation has undermined MAN's role as the principal gateway airport outside London and in my opinion stifled the development of a critical mass of long-haul services here. LBA is not much nearer, and a damn site harder to get to from most of West Yorkshire, than is MAN. To have intercontinental services departing from cities just 40 miles apart to the same destinations is curious economics. Me wonders whether some local politics / diplomacy amongst the ex-pat communities is involved?

MAN - 2 x 3000+m runways, 24H opening, CAT III, rail station, direct motorway link, 3 terminals, cargo centre, arguably the second city-region of the UK. Surely, only MAN makes sense if and when tentative toes are poked out from beyond the big smoke 15 west of London.

[hammerb32]

Being a Brummie I would have to take issue with the claim that MAN serves the second city region, but that's for another forum!

The real surprise for me in all of this is that in recent years and months the local economy of Manchester and Salford has grown beyond recognition and grown with quality jobs not just standard call centres or retail led employment. Alongside this economic leap, which to be fair has seen Manchester gain a credible argument to make a claim for being the UKs second city it's airport has seen business related routes thin out.

All that said MAN still has excellent connections around the world, most UK airports would kill for its route network!

[goldeneye]

With the sad news of BD dropping the Manchester longhaul, will anyone step in and take over them. I can see VS boosting there BGI and maybe starting a ANU but would they have an aircraft to cover the route. Also would VS consider MAN-LAS or will they leave it to the TCX charter ?

Any thoughts ?

[Railgun]

No airline at this moment in time will take over the routes left by bmi IMHO. Its not the time to start or expand.

[Skipness One Echo]

Virgin just pulled UVF from March and the slot is going to another LGW-MCO rotation.

[Ametyst1]

"an additional four new destinations in India through Brussels Airlines." Oh come on, talk about clutching at straws!!! Surely, the Manchester Airport PR department cannot be that desperate. If so, Liverpool John Lennon Airport has just gained an additional 100 new destinations through KLM!!!

And by the way, I travelled from Manchester on Friday morning and the flight announcer was announcing the departure of the SN Brussels Airlines flight to Brussels, at least get the airline name right when you do announcements.

[TBirdFrank]

OK take the yield argument at face value and move the most appropriate aircraft to the most appropriate station - BUT

I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades.

Why would any business walk away from a profitable business when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates to maintain service and income.

What is the fascination with Heathrow and why are regional SLF being asked to put up with another five hours or so on long haul journeys when spoke and hub is so patently unnecessary?

That aspect really does make no sense

[TartinTon]

TBirdFrank...sounds like you're in denial like most at MAN/BHX/Gla/Edi etc etc..there is only a limited amount of people who will pay the required yields to support longhaul ex regions and they just aren't enough. Load factor means nothing. The only thing that matters is revenue or, more accurately, contribution. People criticize BA for funnelling people through LHR and then praise KL/AF/LH/EK for funnelling through their hubs at AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/DXB when they are actually doing exactly the same thing as BA but not through London (God forbid). How dumb is that? The bottom line is that there is not enough point-to-point traffic to sustain longhaul ex-MAN but foreign carriers are actually better placed to sustain longhaul as they are feeding into THEIR hubs as well as servicing the limited point-to-point market. That's why they can make it work and BA can't. Rocket science it ain't. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[bmi expat]

TartinTon, what you say is blindingly obvious and I can't understand how people can't see that. There are so many posters on here who praise AA/CO/DL/EK etc... for carrying passengers via their hubs, yet crucify BA and now BD for doing the same thing.

I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades.

Why would any business walk away from a profitable business

TBirdFrank... I would love to know who has advised you that "these routes are profitable NOW".

If you honestly believe that BD (and BA) have dropped their longhaul routes from MAN inspite of them being profitable then you are just plain stupid and have got sucked into this whole UK airlines hate serving the UK regions bullsh*t. Yes it is a shame that BD and BA have pulled out, but to say that they would axe profitable routes just to spite the regions is deluded. Both companies have a responsibilty primarily to their shareholders to maximise profit, and have taken these decisions in the light of the current economic climate. Why should they settle for second best by operating longhaul from the regions when they can make the most return for their investment by flying from LHR?

[Skipness One Echo]

when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates

The availability of A330-200s is already an issue as there is already a shortage. Are you suggesting BMI get hold of some DC10s or TriStars from the desert? How about some Air Canada 767s flown since the 1980s? How about the ex BA B747-400s being released from service? The costs of introducing a new sub fleet can be pretty high so NOT gonna happen.
And before anyone jumps in, the 757s are operated by Astraeus....on behalf of BMI.

[IB4138]

TartinTom and bmiexpat

It is you and not TBirdFrank who are being taken in here. If you wish to believe figures produced by corporate bean counters, configured in such a way as to produce the results that "management" want to support their actions, it shows your lack of experience and that you are not worldly wise in business practices, that have been doing the rounds for the last 25 years or more.

All you are doing is believing "facts" that company management want you to, without question and as it's coming from such large corporate bodies, then it must be correct.

All senior management are interested in is self glorification, their pay cheques and their bonuses. They have to be seen to be at the controls, even if they are not and their decisions, whilst looking good in the short term are a disaster waiting to happen in the longer term.....when they have moved on to pastures new and someone else comes in to clear up their mess, unfortunately again with a short term fix.

[Mr A Tis]

Some of these services that have been pulled, have been over booked in the past. If that has not produced the right yield, then it is the airlines pricing structure that has been wrong.

As for LHR hubbing. Knowledgable Mancunians will know, whenever BA has ANY wiff of any minor hic-cup in their system the first things they do is CANCEL all their domestics. Thus leaving all their regional pax stranded. This simply does not happen with KLM. Luftie etc........and that is why many, esp me !! would not dream of risking the LHR Shuttles.

[TartinTon]

IB4138...what colour is the sky on your planet exactly?

You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management.

I bow to your superior grasp of the "facts"

Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.

Do you REALLY think that airlines don't want to operate routes that make a profit? Are you REALLY that stupid???

Mr A Tis...getting the wrong yield CAN be a function of the wrong pricing structure but more often it's just a case of the market not being prepared to pay (as is the case with Manchester). Airlines will try and get loads on flights in the short term and take a loss with a view to building a market.

That's called investment.

If the market fails to respond to economically viable prices after having built and invested in a market then of course the airline will cut its losses and re-invest elsewhere.

As for cancelling domestic flights at times of disruption, that actually makes perfect sense. You can always get a train or drive.

I suspect that KLM, LH etc also do exactly the same thing. They try not to cancel flights that have to go over water as it's a long way to swim.....

[Skipness One Echo]

For the ten billionth time, BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles as Heathrow is maxed out in normal operations and there is no leeway when the weather gets involved. Hence when fog / winds hit you have options :

A) Land the inbound Hong Kong that has been holding at Lambourne for 45 mins
B ) Divert the above flight with 350+ pax

You choose to land the above but to free a slot you need to consolidate as many of the domestic shuttles together to free up space in the sequence as ATC are under pressure

Result? 350 long haul passengers get into the right airport and your domestic passengers get home late.

Or there's option 2 which is try and run the normal schedule which would see the long haul fleet and their crews scattered to the regions and tomorrows program damaged even more as the crews that were down to operate them are in Glasgow, which oddly enough is where you wanted to be! Result? You have 350+ long haul passenegers not going anywherethe next day. Now multiply that by the number of long haul inbounds taking into account domestic outbounds and passengers carried.

NOW can we have a third runway?

The same capacity constraint is NOT applicable at CDG / FRA / AMS. They have what is known as "room to breath".

[andybsei]

MANflyer...i'm struggling to see where the spokesperson got the comment wrong??

"with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados."

It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...

Granted it's not the best sentence ever but it covers the fact that there is still a direct route to BGI from where you can fly on to ANU......not to mention 1 stop connections via the USA.....

[MANFlyer]

He was trying - quite understandably - to gloss over the BD route cuts by saying it's a shame, but the destinations they are cutting are still served by other airlines (true), with the exception of Antigua (true again), which was only served once a week (true yet again), as an additional leg on a BGI flight (wrong !!).

As we are all very much aware, ANU is served direct every Friday, while BGI is direct every Saturday and Monday.

Capiche ?.

[IB4138]

You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management.
Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.


So, now we know the truth as to where TartinTom's views come from.


...Oh, BTW,the sky is wall to wall blue here today.

[virgin_cc_wannabe]

theairdb.com reporting MAN-NCE available for booking. No idea yet if its direct or a connection

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

"BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles to Heathrow"

"Your domestic passengers get home late"

"You can always get a train or drive"

The first two comments above come from Skipness One Echo, the third is from a posting by Tartin Tom.

Ladies/Gentlemen,

I understand that you speak from the point of view of an airline operator - in this case BA - as I often do myself. However, sometimes it is worth considering also the point of view of the CUSTOMERS (remember them?), as well as the company accountants.

So BA "have no bloody choice" but to cancel Shuttles at the first whiff of a problem, eh? Well that's fine. But the customers do have a choice. They can direct their business towards a carrier which is not notorious for canceling MAN connecting flights on a whim. Examples of more reliable alternative carriers have already been cited by other posters here. I have used alternatives to BA for quite some time now and have not been let down yet. That is a problem BA should take seriously as it is hitting their bottom line. But perhaps they think as you do ...

"Your domestic passengers get home late ..."

Not all domestic passengers are on their way home. Half are on outbound services, and many of those have onward connections. I recall that in August 2006 I turned up at MAN to fly to Miami via Chicago with American Airlines. Princess Cruises had suggested booking me MAN-LHR-MIA with BA; I said "In that case I suggest you quote me cruise only and I will book my own Transatlantic flights from Manchester." Princess relented and booked me via Chicago instead. On the day - guess what - yes, BA had cancelled all the Shuttles again! And there, huddled in a corner (BA and AA both use T3 at MAN) was a distraught tearful group of passengers with 'Princess' baggage labels just like mine. I never saw them again. I was one of 4 people from the Manchester flights who made it to the ship (and mine was a party of two). The gentleman and his wife who also made it to the ship asked me how I had ended up on the AA service and not BA like all the others. I told him that BA frequently cancelled shuttles and that I had refused to trust BA with a cruise departure at stake. He smiled and replied that he had also been let down by BA connections in the past and had refused to be booked with them.

Perhaps BA should remember that if they badly let down a customer once, that customer may NEVER be won back. I wonder how many of the customers in that tearful huddle I saw have booked another BA flight since then? But perhaps BA just don't care anyway. Passengers booked from the North West were unlikely to have been born within earshot of Bow Bells (now those are the folks who really count!). And besides, all Northerners are poor working class types with low wages who can't afford to pay higher yielding fares. That's right - isn't it? So why worry.

Going back to my own experience, I pitched up at LHR on 19th July 2003. WOW - all this has been going on so long (I've just looked up that date). BA had gone on strike, all flights to MAN cancelled. "We suggest you go back home, Sir!", they said. "I would very much like to", I replied, "I've booked you to fly me there."

On the 11th August 2005 I pitched up at LHR again (I really know how to pick 'em!). Oops - BA lightning strike - all flights to MAN cancelled! But this time I got home just afew minutes late (due to backed up BA aircraft with insufficient parking space blocking the taxiways). So how did I do it? Simple - I had learned my lesson from July 2003. I booked on BD592 !!! We customers have memories, you see, and we can use the benefit of experience to influence our future bookings. I am sure that the reservations staff at Princess Cruises were surprised when I rejected their proposed BA flights via LHR one year on. But was I wrong?

And next I must refer to Tartin Tom's comment, "You can always take a train or drive." Hmmm ... may I remind you about Christmas Eve 2006? (I could be a year adrift here, but I think it was '06). Yes, BA cancelled the MAN Shuttles again (yawn). Perhaps you recall the TV news coverage? You see, there is a problem with "you can always take the train". Several, actually. Walk-on fares Euston - Manchester are amongst the most expensive per mile in the world. And at Christmas that assumes there are any seats left anyway. And the trains knock off early on December 24th. And all the hire cars have already been snapped up (if you drive). So when that family of four (two young kids, pram, suitcases etc) arrive exhausted at LHR from Johannesburg to be told that their domestic connection is cancelled ("Because BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles" [Skipness]), perhaps Tartin and Skipness would like to be there. They could explain BA's point of view and discuss the customers' onward travel options with them! I would like to be there too - but I would stand some distance away!

You see, I too recognize that airlines can't run all the flights in adverse conditions, although conditions don't have to be very adverse in the case of some carriers! But the problem with BA is they have been known to cancel ALL the MAN Shuttles for a day. Would it not be preferable to spread the pain around a bit and operate, say two of the services to help the worst affected customers (those with no alternatives). Why not use a B744 or a B763 from another cancelled flight? They redeployed L1011's back in the days when BA still tried to get their customers home.

So yes, Skipness and Tartin. You continue to post BA's point of view. I do understand the airline decisions to which you refer. I do understand yield. I do understand scheduling complications (especially concerning LHR) in adverse conditions. But I also understand this. The customers pay the wages. The customers have a choice. The customer once let down will not easily be won back. Customer service in times of difficulty is paramount ("I suggest you go back home, Sir" doesn't cut it).

At MAN, customers have a choice of airlines. Many of them do NOT make a habit of canceling flights between MAN and their respective hubs on a regular basis. They have cultivated a reputation for reliability - customers appreciate that. Changing planes en-route is not a concern for many passengers, but being unable to reach their final destination is. BA must remember this. Times are getting tough. The easy-spend money from Canary Wharf and the City of London is drying up fast. If BA wants to fill it's aircraft, Cockneys and Inbound Markets alone may not be enough. Perhaps the shareholders may come to point out that offering a minimal service to the domestic market - and an unreliable one at that - means presenting 70% of the UK's catchment area to competitors (on a plate). It's your choice, BA, but it looks like you've already made it. Good luck.

SHED.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

It'll all be so much EZY-er once MAN gets a dedicated, reliable carrier on the LGW run.........;)

Run BA, Run BA, Run Run Run :E

[TBirdFrank]

Ah - So Mr Tartin is a company bean counter with no axe to grind.

You have gone now - so you have no commercial interest to protect - I ask again -

If these planes were flying as full as they were - and yet you are adamant that they were loss makers, then justify your company leaving Manchester in long haul terms, by stating the loss that was being incurred.

The alternative is to concede my point that the company has decided to forego one profit making business to pursue another - and it is the regional clients that will suffer.

Me - I will do anything to avoid LHR, baggage losing, time wasting, changeovers - and management such as the one that Tartin aspires to is one that will attract the same customer rejection from much of the market

We do have a choice - and arrogant management style like that propounded by the sad "company men" on here will provoke it to their detriment - its just a shame that terms like customer service, or regional markets mean so little to those who can't see beyond the cluttered, unpleasant oversubscribed morass that is Heathrow

[lexoncd]

Shed on a Pole

Got it in One. When Executive Card holders who work in the industry and go from a lowly blue through Silver to Gold and have amassed in excess of a million BA miles but then give that up due to the reason you outline that's a sign of a problem.

The way that the first flights to go are always the Manchester Shuttles and the way you are just expected to make your own way to Euston or find a hotel is one thing but it gets worse.

My initial solution was always to change flights if the forecast a day or so ahead was for cold or windy weather but then it simply got worse and even poor weather was no indicator of performance. The final straw came late one Friday night battling over the pennines in a rented fiesta as I ended up in Leeds......Money talks..

[eggc]

Stonetbridge...stop teasing us...what do you know ? Spill the beans pls...

[barry lloyd]

Shed on a Pole

One of the best postings I've seen on this subject for a long time. Your experiences closely mirror my own, which is probably why I have a lowly blue BA FF card and a platinum-for-life KLM one.
Manchester is not alone in suffering this way. I have spoken to others who travel from BFS/GLA/EDI/ABZ, and don't even get me started on the IOM.
Most businesses in the UK are run by beancounters these days. Service went out of the window years ago. Yes, BA can fill the front end of its flights from Canary Wharf, and the City (isn't that why Crossrail is being built?) and the meedja and 'celebrities' will always be happy to top up, so why bother with the rest of the UK?
Personally, I find the service on the foreign carriers superior to BA's anyway, and as many others have pointed out, LHR is just a hell-hole, whichever terminal you're using. Gatwick North is an overcrowded shopping mall.

[MUFC_fan]

Could LH do a 'Milan' at Manchester and look at putting A319s at the airport?

[Skipness One Echo]

Why would Lufthansa build up Manchester as a UK Star Alliance hub when that's the intention for Terminal One at Heathrow?

I concur with you, the level of service on the Shuttles is pretty poor from MAN. I won't defend them for a minute as I know it's been a dreadful experience for many. As a Scot exiled in London, ( yes there is a MASSIVE need for Crossrail remember, Heathrow being a small part of it, the Central Line more so ) I am familiar with the problem I had two flights cancelled on me at an hours notice last year. One was a leisure jaunt to ZRH from LHR I re-booked and the other was a LHR Shuttle which these days has LGW and LCY options too. Ahh the grinding of teeth in the queue to see Aviance (!)

Now don't flame me as I am curious to know. Does anyone see a future for the BMI LHR service as I always saw it as a slot holder for a Lufthansa sale and the times I've been on it, it has had an Embraer's worth of passengers, often on an A319.

[bar none]

Shed on a Pole,

Your posting should be emblazoned in 6 foot high letters on the walls of Watersides inner chambers. Perhaps then they will start to dismantle some of those stupid and restrictive union agreements that prevent 747/777s that are otherwise idle being used in the circumstances described.

[Curious Pax]

Why would Lufthansa build up Manchester as a UK Star Alliance hub when that's the intention for Terminal One at Heathrow?


Conversely why would they only want one UK hub? I'm sure that the development of LHR will come first, but given the pressures on space and slots there, they may think a little more laterally than BA seem capable of doing.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

For the spotters out there DLH MD11F in every Sat night for next few weeks due EMA runway mx. Scheduled in at 2230 out few hours later. Least i'll get some kip Sat night :\

[Vuelo]

Report on another site suggests that SkyEurope may be about to go tits up...that's two more routes lost then! Kosice and Bratislava.

[dashhead]

Concur with the BA shuttle issues/avoid LHR at all costs.

Please don't forget Delta out of MAN when considering LH options. I was very suspicious of connecting on from Atlanta, but I have to say that I had a superb flight - excellent friendly, efficient service centered around a customer that did appear to matter. The changeover in Atlanta was straightforward (they've perfected it as the hub/spoke is how they operate) and the choice of connections basically opens up Americia, Carribean, Mex etc.

Thanks to these US carriers commitment to MAN, any Nortwest passanger, if prepared to changeover in a US hub, literally is connected anywhere state side.

I asked the Flight attendent about Atlanta - MAn loads and she said they were nearly always full.

Before I tried it, not an obvious choice but now I'd definitely use them again.

DH

[Scottie Dog]

Hamburg28K

You asked on 4th November about the work at the end of pier B which, you feel has been going on for ages.

According to the AIP this work was originally due to be completed by the end of December 2008, however I do seem to recall that this particular stage of the work started later than scheduled and I have just seen that the new finishing date is 23rd May. Looks like it's a long job.

Out of interest the work on the Terminal 3 apron extension now shows a completion date of 14th January.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards

Scottie Dog

[Vuelo]

Are FR and LS then to move to T3 as planned?

[EC-ILS]

Havnt Skyeurope already dumped MAN from their timetable.

[Ian Brooks]

EC-ILS

No not as of today !

Ian