DFO Update and DEC's!!!

[Saturn]

We need to say NO NO NO!!! I wonder what the plan would have been without the demise of Oasis??? And why are all the resources being spent on people from outside the company? What about bypass pay? Why are the DEC's NOT getting a PCA but all of us are required to do one? I say again, this is just UNACCEPTABLE! Everyone, write the AOA and just say NO!:mad:

[XFR8]

Hi Saturn,

Would you strike over the issue? Thats what it will take. The company used their ultimate weapon in 2001, so we have to use ours if we want anything. If not, get on with your job or leave, those are the choices until the pilot group (not the AOA) grows some balls.

[goathead]

Before you roast the AOA AND OR THE PILOT GROUP, does anyone know if THE AOA HAS DONE ANYTHING ?
This is a callous abuse of our COS/CONTRACT , and a load of bull from the DFO
I REPEAT 'A LOAD OF BULL !!!'
IT KEEPS GOING ON ..........AND ON:confused:

[Yeager]

NOTHING will happen. NOTHING. Get used to that thought (you should be by now anyways!). To many chickens without heads are running around screaming - but it aint gonna change :mad: all.. Cathay and Swire knows that all too well. There are close to zero labour laws in HKG and way too many dudes thinking about me, myself and I - working on G-days - accepting discretion - changes to rosters etc - thinking they are :mad: heroes - b u t are really only a joke to them selves and others. To many little heroes. Like it or not - you live with the consequences.

I wish it was different for all of you - but time have proven that a lot of words are said - and very little action are taken. Thats one of the main reasons why Cathay is what Cathay is! Again - like it or not. :}

[The Messiah]

I wish it was different for all of you
Don't you mean us? ie. you included?
accepting discretion
While it is called 'Commanders Discretion' it in fact needs to be accepted by ALL the crew, YOU included. Have you ever said no?

[Yeager]

The Mess,

I presume you are addressing moir. Right.

NO, my dear pen-friend :8. I mean YOU and not me and you know!:D Righty. :ouch:

Buddy, you seem to still have a lot to learn in this industry.
One thing is FTLS (or whatever CX calls it!) but another is what the individual pilot feels like. If I'm too fatigued, tired, stressed or anything else - I'm just "not fit" and that's got nothing to do with FTLS or Commanders discretion. That my decision - comprende. Nobody elses.

Unfortunately I have never had to use it it CX, no. Would I? What do you think maaty? What do you think? :}:p

[Hellenic aviator]

Quote:
I wish it was different for all of you
Don't you mean us? ie. you included?
Quote:
accepting discretion
While it is called 'Commanders Discretion' it in fact needs to be accepted by ALL the crew, YOU included. Have you ever said no?

For the record, I know 2 F/Os on our fleet that REFUSED Commanders Discretion citing reasons of fatigue (safety) and here's the results / consequences;

F/O 1 - Told by the Commander if he continued to feel this way, he (the Capt.) would be filling out a CAR expressing that the F/O was being uncooperative and as such, would be jeopardising a possible Command opportunity when it came time for The Star Chamber to sift through his file(s).:ouch:

F/O 2 - Was called into the Chief Pilot's office for "tea 'n' bisquies" (I think he said Tim-Tams) and was 'advised' to consider "towing the Company Line as your Command is very close".:ouch:

2 blokes speak up for feeling like ****e at "oh-dark hundred" body clock time, and one gets called to the 3rd floor to explain himself.:=

What's your thoughts now Messiah ?

[Harbour Dweller]

F/O 1 - Told by the Commander if he continued to feel this way, he (the Capt.) would be filling out a CAR expressing that the F/O was being uncooperative and as such, would be jeopardising a possible Command opportunity when it came time for The Star Chamber to sift through his file(s).

Well this so called Commander (I use the term loosely in this case) needs to pull is head in... what a :mad:! :mad:

[The Messiah]

I wish it was different for all of you
Yeager as you are also at CX then you are included in 'YOU', like it or not.
way too many dudes thinking about me, myself and I - working on G-days - accepting discretion -
If you have been on a flight that has gone into discretion then YOU went into discretion just like the dudes thinking about me, myself and I, it is not just the Captain. If you have never had to go into discretion then you would be one of the very few indeed.
What's your thoughts now Messiah ?
If you are fatigued don't fly. I wouldn't and haven't. Intimidation only works on people who can be intimidated.

[Striker58]

"Well this so called Commander (I use the term loosely in this case) needs to pull is head in... what a :mad:! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif"


If I was a commander and I was prepared to use discretion and the F/O was not then I would have the paperwork reflect that position. If the F/O (in this case) is genuinely too fatigued to operate then he should have no qualms about explaining his decision at a later time.

A decision to put 300-400 pax up in a hotel and delay the flight by 11 hours or so is one all crew members should take seriously and if you are just doing it to stuff up the company then, for me, that is not professional and will not get my support. If you are unsafe to operate due to cumulative fatigue then fair enough.

[ACMS]

Yes I agree, if the other crew are fatigued then no discretion, end of story.

However the 3rd floor will look at ME if WE don't use it. ( in situations where it is warranted ) F/O's and S/O's should remember that.

[treboryelk]

too true, in that the commander has to do the explaining...but discretion i dont think was designed to cover the shortfalls of lack of reserve cover from a home base.....which is where i have seen it used more than anywhere else of late

[mephisto88]

Concerning discretion, I'm not sure wether I interpreted the messiah's words incorrectly.
If I'm wrong, I apologise to you in advance, however I do not believe the crew have to
agree to 'accept' it in the sense I think was portrayed. .

Commanders discretion is just that - plain and simple.
It is the COMMANDER who is deciding wether or not to use HIS discretion concerning
whatever the situation may be.

Clearly as others have implied, it is not a simple matter of "oh well we only need to extend
by 1hr and 40 minutes and all will be well, so just get back in the seat laddie, and lets be
away".
A good Commander will not only look at the legalities of any situation, but the practicalities
also, after all he is there additionally to look after the parts of the big picture that Thomo
didnt take.

Now any guy in the left seat worth his salt, will no doubt take into account, all the aspects
such as, but not limited to:
i)Firstly, is it legal, and is it sensible - if not both, the pub beckons!
ii)If discretion is not used, what are the options as far as passengers go.
iii)Aircraft serviceability, weather, and upcoming workload on the next approach.
iv)Length of preceeding duty, body clock time.
v)How much extra time will actually be required to complete the req'd task.
vi)Wether the cabin crew, if discretion is used, would be on the ball in the event of a
landing incident and having to pop the slides.

Occasionally, there may be no good solution, just a motley range of poor and diverse options.
In cases such as this, thats why the skipper carries the can, and after all those, and probably
many more aspects I've ommited, have been weighed up, he then decides wether to exercise
HIS discretion.

Now that said, it would be a less than wise skipper, who when assessing his crew, (were they
to tell him how fatigued they were from the flight just carried out, unable to rest in the 2 star
Worst Western motor Inn, been sick from the Delhi trots), decides that discretion is the way
to go, especially when significant future risk can be negated or even avoided by
deplanning the 80 pax into the airport hotel, and setting off for HK many hours later after a
suitable crew rest, ideally in a different hotel than the pax.

Conversely, you've just had the pleasure of experiencing a Cargo fire warning, dropped into
Shemya,experienced their finest winter weather, luckily your deadheading engineer has found
it was a false warning caused by a dodgy detector. Suitably isolated, (both your detector and
the jet full of anxious self-loaders in the northern pacific winter), you now realise you are soon
to be out of hours. Again, there may be no correct answer, but trying to accomodate 280 pax
in a Shemya winter, is at best fruitless, and at worst could be downright dangerous. The
skipper may well be faced with crew who are unhappy to go on, but I would suggest that
discretion to at least get to Anchorage for example may be the lesser of the evils.

Admittedly, the above are somewhat extreme examples, but the facts remain, that it is the
Commander who will decide if discretion is to be used. It does NOT have to be accepted
per se by the crew. The fact that most situations lie in the middle of such extremes does
little to point the decision making in the right direction, which is why the skipper should always
canvass all thoughts and opinions to ensure he can make an informed and reasoned decision.

That said, if an individual decides to vote with his feet and walk off the flight deck, there
probably isn't much one can do about that. It's not the military, and even though one could
point to the regs in the books concerning the authority of the Commander and how the crew
are required to follow lawful orders, the Company hasn't shot somebody for dereliction of duty
for a while now.
Whilst the individual deserter will clearly be required to justify his actions to the grown-ups,
the skipper may possibly be invited for a chat too!
So gents decide carefully, I know whose shoes I'd rather to be in!

Finally, yes we have some young skippers, and some local skippers, and genuinely I mean
no insult, because in this job, we all learn by both our own and others experiences. However,
anecdotally, a level of 'keen-ness' beyond common sense occasionally appears evident,
where they are ultra-keen to help the company out, as they may believe by opting for the
10hr rest with a pub full of pax may be a black mark in their book. For those who are so
inclined, you will guarantee more of a black mark by pressing on unnecesarily and incurring
an incident where fatigue may be later pointed to as a significant factor. One cast-iron
guarantee that you will have, is that the company will isolate themselves from you faster than
you can say profit share, by saying well it was the Commanders choice to use his discretion.

So before it gets to that stage is where ALL the other crew need to step up and speak out in
the decision phase to ensure all points are raised, reasonable and otherwise.
Then listen to the skippers decision.

After that there's two choices, you agree with him and fly, or, you pack your bags and walk.

Apolgies for serious thread drift of war and peace dimensions
Brgds to all.

(Sounds of stepping down off soap box and retiring to don steel helmet....)

[mephisto88]

Ref striker58's reply in post#10

On a personal note, if a crew member is not happy with my intention to use discretion, and I believe he has a valid reason, be it fatigue or whatever, IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used.

I do not give a reason to the company unless asked, and I definately do NOT drop the FO or SO in the guano by saying "well I would have but he didnt want to".
Remember gentlemen, loyalty should go both ways, and these are our fellow crew members who have enough hurdles to jump over before they get to the left seat.

We should not be adding to their problems by generating unnecessary black marks for the monday morning quarter backs to assign into their files that they can use against them at some later categorisation meeting.

In the same vein as when someone wants to know the time, you dont build him a watch. So if asked for reasons why discretion was not used, keep it simple and to the point without apportioning blame to the other members of your crew

[BusyB]

mephisto88
totally agree.

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

It's up to each individual to do their homework about this place before coming. If you can be happy with staying at whatever position you enter or your current position for your entire career at this place, then you'll be ok here. If career advancement past your current status is an absolute must or a deal breaker for you then stay away or make plans to leave asap. If you can't see this state of affairs here by the simple fact that direct entry FOs and CAs get hired ahead of existing pilots on a regular basis you're either blind or just covering your eyes for some reason.

On the other note, if I'm trying to decide if I'm too tired to fly or not and someone makes a threat about the consequences then my decision is automatically made right then & there towards the more restrictive choice just to make sure I'm not influenced by the threat to do something I really am not safe to do. I've done it before and will not hesitate to do it again. But if a less direct and more respectful approach is used then the outcome can still be differrent. It's called integrity, the core of professionalism. If you don't have it I'm truly sorry for you.

[Liam Gallagher]

You said.....

"IF I see it as a genuine reason, then MY decision becomes that discretion will not be used."

Given that this thread is about the pilot group's reaction to an unpopular 3rd floor decision; what would your reaction be if you sensed* the other crew member's politely (but firmly) declining your invitation to extend his crew duty day was purely a "political" statement..... would that meet your criteria for a genuine reason or would you "shop the barsteward"....?

* sensed... because he is wise enough not state his reasons... he just says "cannot"... politely... but firmly....

[Saturn]

Getting way off the subject guys and gals!

[PanZa-Lead]

I have twice refused to go into discretion. Both flights out of Hong Kong. I dont believe leaving Hong Kong and having to use discretion as we have stand by crews that should be called out to relieve us. To give the company credit, they have never questioned my decision and I never heard from them to give a reason. Captains who fly out of HK using discretion are abusing their authority.

Now trot off to your computer and down-load some balls

[Cumguzzler]

mephisto88,

Are you in C&T?

[mephisto88]

Liam - If an individual is trying to make a political statement,
it is still a factor that one would have to consider, re his
effectiveness if continuing into discretion. If my deciscion
was not to continue, then no I would not dob him in.
I am aware that some of my colleaugues differ, in that they
don't have wide enough shoulders, but thats probably due to
a spine deficiency. Incidentally, the Companies monday
morning reaction is not a factor I consider, Im old enough
and ugly enough to weather that.
So thats it, call me old fashioned, but its a leadership and
example type of thing. It's my decision, I carry the can,
thats what we get paid for. End of story.

CmGzlr (very distasteful name - no pun intended)
C&T - no and yes, depending on how you look at it.

Saturn - further apologies for the continued tangential thread divergence

[Dead Head]

wish u were

[Liam Gallagher]

Mephisto88 thanks for the candid reply. Wholeheartedly agree that many CNs will take a different stance. Whilst not saying they are wrong, it is nonetheless something that we all need to be aware of if we advocate bringing industrial matters onto the Flight Deck.

I don't think this thread has drifted much... but if Saturn wants it back on track; here are some questions for him;

1. How has the Company's treatment of the ex-Oasis pilots breached his contract?

2. Has he applied for a Freighter Command? If not, why not?

3. The AOA did not decide to employ the ex-Oasis pilots, NR and GMA did. Why not write to them expressing your disapproval?

[Saturn]

At last count there were roughly 55 guy's in the "Q" for command on freighter. ALL are on the CX seniority list and have been here for some time. ALL were required to take and pass a PCA. All are Cat A'd. Most have been waiting for a year and have been told another year. The YVR argument does not stand as there are a number of guy's waiting for other bases including JFK. NR's arguments are for the the fact they had no plan for all the freighters and again fell into the sewer but came out with a trout in their pockets. If Oasis had not shut down they would be struggling. THIS IS A VILOATION OF THE COS AS IT SAYS NO DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS PERIOD. The Oasis guys are NOT required to take a PCA. They are offered DEC right off the bat. I met some of them during their interviews. The direct entry FO RAPID COMMAND thing is utter non-sense! Argue what you will but this must NOT be accepted and MUST be stopped! If we accept this why not DEC's on pax fleet on bases? You know their is a moral side to a contract as well. But CX does what ever it wants when it wants. Enough is enough. Man I hope the AOA does something and soon otherwise we need to pack it in boys and girls.:mad:

[parabellum]

There has been a subtle change though. CX was once owned and run by British, Australian and American and observed the morality of those countries. CX is now much more a Chinese run company and will follow the Chinese moral code, ("Over you go, here is the bat").

The expats of British, Australian or American origin actually have no real influence any more, or do they?

Or have I missed something?

[Old Fella]

As one with only great memories of my time with CX I am constantly amazed by the whingeing coming from some present day employees. If CX is such a terrible company to work for why not find another employer? Most of those whingeing have probably either forgotten the conditions under which they were previously employed before getting a job with CX, or else have always been whingers.

[quadspeed]

....or maybe it -once- was a great place to work. Things have certainly changed, and part of the problem is guys like you advising people of what a great place this is, only to have them realize too late that things are nothing like the "good old days."

Most of us certainly remember our previous jobs, and gave up good rosters, seniority, pension and income to start at the bottom and make a career with Cathay; much based on the very advice of "Old Fellas" like yourself.

But it was advice that was 10 years old. Most of us believed that the company would honor their pledges when it came to careers and basings. Only to be met with DEFOs and DECs being daggered into our backs.

[rick.shaw]

Ok Old Fella - I'll bite.

Since you were with CX (retired?), things have change alot. In my 10+ years with the company, I have seen most of the 'gentlemanliness' simply disappear. And that boils down to penny pinching and COS degradation by a bunch of merciless managers out to make some quick bucks for selling their souls. FYI, my Uncle was a long time F/E and he just rolls his eyes back in disgust when I tell him the latest news - whether it be blatant COS busts (love the words 'normally' etc), 'interesting' interpretaions of COS or whatever.

And don't even go there with the 'if you don't like it bugger off elsewhere' diatribe. Most of us have invested a huge amount of time in this company. To give that all up and head to the bottom of the heap elsewhere is dumb. Any employee should have a reasonable expectation that COS should remain the same or similar unless negotiated changes are made. A sign or be fired ultimatum does not fit that description by the way!

I suspect you are of the generation that was able to call the shots, have the best years of aviation and have retired comfortably with your package and super intact. For that, I am very happy for you. I just regret not being part of that generation.

[BusyB]

Old Fella,

I guess you are one of those who sold seniority for a common jet scale to avoid doing another course:}

[Old Fella]

Busy Bee, I sold nothing, just appreciated the COS I enjoyed, did my job and retired with my good memories. That said, there were however some who whinged and bitched, having totally forgotten about the conditions under which they previously worked and which led them to CX in the first place. As for those citing advice given by others such as myself as a major factor in seeking to join CX, that sounds like a "cop-out" to me. I accept that many have put a huge amount of time into CX and that things change. Maybe the AOA ought to grow some balls and go to bat for those unhappy with their lot, that is if the majority feel hard done by.

[400 Jockey]

Old Fella = Knob!

[GWN type]

On the bright side it will never get worse than it is now. When else will cx get the chance to hire so many pilots who are fo's for 1 day and fast tracked to the left seat? Am I missing something or is that just really direct entry captains called something else to fool you guys? Ha ha ha.

[Humber10]

Rapid departure F/O?? :confused:

Well if it appies to all, bring it on!

Yeah I know, keep playing lotto..... :}