Field Condions V Incidental Expenses?

[pumaengineer]

I am currently lucky enough to be out here in Arizona at Davis Monthan AFB with the mighty Puma. We are here as part of an exercise which is being run by the Army:\. (Albeit we are only a bit part player with our own ET to carry out) To that end, before we arrived we were told we would get the princely sum of $25 rates and no access to Incidental Expenses. (Yes I know you fast jet boys get $65-75 rates for staying in exactly the same accomodation)
The Army have declared field conditions for the whole exercise and we are no longer receiving the original $25 in fact we are receiving nothing. We will get LOA and LSA upon our return but we have been told we are still not entitled to IE. We have to buy our own phonecards and papers. They do provide laundry facilities and little else.
The JSP states that IE cannot be claimed except in certain circumstances which includes having to buy your own phonecards.
I know there are alot of JPA experts on here. Can anyone clarify the situation?

[Sloppy Link]

Be careful of what you wish for....you are receiving field conditions because you are on a pre-deployment exercise. LSSA is not a factor, you receive this regardless, your LOA will be exercise rates. The fact you have access to a phone in the first place is a bonus. Although not a JPA guru or even an adminer, my understanding is that incuded in exercise rates of LOA is "an amount" to allow for calls home. It could be worse, if they had gone hard over and issued an Operational Welfare Package you would be getting nothing but LSSA. Finally, remember, as you sit in your airconditioned room with cable at the southern end of Craycroft Rd, the remainder of the CE troops are nowhere nearly as well off as you. JOINT Helicopter Command.

[pumaengineer]

Thanks for the answers gents. I guess I will have to wait until the JPA gurus who frequent this site return after the weekend and can hopefully help to find any loopholes in the system. Yes I know we have it better off than our brothers down the road but we all would hold out hope if money was due. Wouldn't we?

[Sloppy Link]

I wish you luck....having done three of those CE Exercises at two months-ish each, if it transpires you are entitled then by my reckoning, I alone am owed in the region of £2000. When the remaining Ex personnel get hear about it, I can picture the JPA terminals now!

[Faithless]

We are here as part of an exercise which is being run by the Army.

Is'nt that your main role?? Hump and Dump for the Army. My god, you find yourself on an Ex (Once in a Blue Moon) and you think you are still hard done by.

Should have tried harder at school ...then you too could be in the fast jet gang:E

[Sloppy Link]

Now now darlings, lets not allow this to decend into a bad tempered series of slanging between services or between types even. There are posts for that out there which attract a far wider audience of extremely vitriolic posters with far more wit. Lets leave it to them.

[L J R]

the $60 something you quote for FJ is not entirely accurate, I have had a few dets to various spots in US and (on one of them) got $7 per day - YES!, someone said if we eat soup and salad at the base diner, that is all you need, (so that is all we got! per day for two weeks), other locations had similat 'rates' because some advanced party discovered that is is posible to survive on nothing. I empathise with your situation, and although illegal, no-one seems to fight this cr@p. Remember the same rule makers say that we can eat in London for £23 per day....!


...BUT the uni district is a nice place to go when in Tuscon.

[HEDP]

Mini Gun,

You are of course quite correct, deleted,

HEDP

[minigundiplomat]

HEDP,

Thank you. I have done likewise.

MGD

[dazjs]

The whole organisations going down the potty. You even have to fork out of your own pocket if they send you on a course now to get some grub in your tummy. For a 3 week course I will have to scrape £70ish of my monthly living budget and with 2 kids about to start senior school and only 1 income this is something that is a struggle.
Can I tell them to shove it????

[Grimweasel]

Daz,
You'd need to check QRs. Look for financial disadvantage etc and legality. If anywhere it would be listed there I'd imagine??

[jonsface]

Faithless, := We are not army air corps. We are the same air force as you, you pleb. And we are used to humping and dumping rubbish army dets. But as soon as we get a good one, we get shaffted all over the show. Why dont you try fighting a war from the front line, and not your hotel 1000 miles away.:D

[Airborne Aircrew]

Jeez Johnsface... That was a major sense of humour failure that dragged you into your first post here... :eek:

That little, evil, grinny thing, ( :E ), is generally an indication that the post is not quite as "nasty" as it might seem. Generally known as banter...

[pumaengineer]

Having lurked on here for a while and seen all manner of advice dished out on how to beat JPA by quoting 'such and such 'remembering to claim this that and the other' there is not one person here with a sensible suggestion to help.

Yes we are very lucky to be here in Arizona. Yes we are a bolt on to an Army exercise therefore we are Army led, but does that mean we have to shut up and put up? Every last one of you on this board would try and get what they are entitled to out of the system instead of rolling over and accepting less. I simply ask from advice from a wider audience and all I get is 'Dry your eyes' and 'fast jet boys don't get this and that'.

Dirty Sanchez - A fast Jet Sqn was here only as matter of months ago with a good friend of mine on it and he was given $65 a day rates operating from exactly the same building and sleeping in the same on base hotel so it is not ''bolleux'':ugh:

Faithless - Obviously I am not going to get into the slanging match that these boards generally decend into but please read people posts before replying. Execrcises are a frequent occurence on an already overstretched Puma force. This is in addition to ongoing Ops. An exercise like this is a real bonus for us, and dare I say it a little reward for our ongoing efforts to maintain the Pumas at home and abroad? To that end I would like to make the most out of it personally and, if entitled, financially. And yes I did work hard at school that is why I am on helicopters, tried fast jets and found it most unrewarding.:ugh:

Sloppy Link - Thankyou for being the most sensible poster on this thread.:D

L J R - I realise that some locations in the US have attracted less rates than others. As a direct comparison between us heli boys and FJ boys operating from the same location, facilities etc and the only factor that has changed is the Army influence and a loss of $65 a day seems like an injustice somewhat. You are right though the Uni district is great:\

dazjs - You are quite correct. Unless people like me ask the questions, we are always going to accept second best.

I can only hope now that people realise that this isn't a 'Poor pumaengineer in Arizona with no rates dry your eyes and get on with it' thread and more of a 'Help me get what I am entitled to instead of letting the b@^$%^&*s get away without paying what is due' thread.

Finally, we know we are not going to get rates (even though we were told $25 a day was the rate in the Ex order). My question is still about claiming IE when under Field Conditions. Over to the experts out there.

[Sloppy Link]

Puma Ginger Beer,
JSP 752 explains all, I gained access through ArmyNet, I guess your service has an equivalent. I quote....

INELIGIBILITY
03.0115. Ineligible Personnel. Subsistence is not payable in the following
circumstances:

b. When Service personnel are living under Field Conditions, no matter
what the type of accommodation, there is no entitlement to claim either
subsistence or IE.

Not what you wanted to hear but there you have it.

SL

[Seymour Belvoir]

Yes I know we are in the JOINT Helicopter Command and we all suffer together, but this seems like another way for the MOD to get a quart out of a pint pot and not having to pay for it.

Why should we be out of pocket when we are on company business?

Why is there a retention problem in the military?

The Puma chums have been hard at it for several years and some have paid the ultimate price, this just seems like another way to cheese people off and look at their options.

[22/7 Master]

Seymour,

Shouldn't there be a n in the final word of your post title?

[HEDP]

Oh well,

I deleted earlier but I guess the only response now as one of the b@^$%^&*s that pumaengineer refers to would be to remove the puma detachment from their air conditioned base accomodation with the contract provided, air force feeding arrangement and put them into the same tented accomodation as the rest of the Joint exercise at Gila bend.

That would make an even playing field for all.

I would have thought that the access to this accomodation and feeding would have been looked on as a bonus compared to the rest of the exercise but if it is such a drag not having IE then you could always be placed where you would be unable to claim or spend it.

FJ rates I would suspect would be primarily for feeding and given that this is provided and a contract let centrally then............

Dry your eyes up doesn't quite match what I would like to communicate at this moment so I shall bite my pen..............

HEDP

[BirdController]

You think you have problems - my son having arrived home 2 months ago after his 6th tour in Iraq (yes 6th!) is still waiting for the MOD to pay him his 'extras' due for his efforts. OK I accept he's Army, based somewhere on the Welsh/English border ending with D, but come on lads in the pay-office in Glasgow or wherever you may be based now - cough up. :ugh:

[Brain Potter]

HEDP,

I infer from your last post that you have been involved in organizing either this exercise or others like it?

If so, may I ask why the Puma detachment were placed in on-base type accommodation rather than under canvas like the rest of the exercise participants? I suspect that the decision would've been made for flight safety reasons, and not simply to give the hard-worked Puma force an early Christmas present. Once this decision is made it is churlish to expect them to happily give up any expense entitlements associated with their situation just because others are in more uncomfortable conditions.

To draw a parallel, when you went to the area for exercise planning you would have stayed on-base or in a hotel (rather than in a tent) because that was appropriate for your job at the time. I would be very surprised if you refused to claim your receipt-based expenses and IE on the basis that you were simply grateful for staying in better conditions than other colleagues may have been experiencing at the time.

Pumaengineer has queried the lack of entitlement to IE, and although he knows that others have had it better (and worse) he simply wants to improve his own lot. I find his attitude a marked contrast to that often found within the services that prefers to complain about or deride those that have better conditions, rather than seeking to improve their own.

It would be very disappointing if the organizers of this exercise had decided to manipulate the regulations to block IE being paid as a response to the Puma personnel being grudgingly accommodated in conditions commensurate with sound flight safety practices.

As a final point, if field conditions apply and pumaengineer and his colleagues are not eligible for IE then surely there should be a welfare package in place. Simply declaring that they should be grateful for their comparatively better conditions and suggesting that those who seek their correct entitlements should be removed and placed in tents is not a very impressive argument.

[philrigger]

;)

Brain Potter

"he simply wants to improve his own lot."

And quite right too. Those who lay down and take all the sh1t thrown at them deserve exactly that!

It was drilled into me when I joined up in '63; Do not grumble because others get better treatment than you. Try doing something to make life better for me!

Then there was the GLO on 230 Sqn about 1978/9 who told me that Rate 1's were a 'Fixed Wing disease'. He thought that we should all pack sleeping bags and sleep either in or under the Puma when staying away from base for any reason.
He was a prat of the first order.




'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[Sloppy Link]

Brain,
You have clearly "speed read" over one of my previous posts. If the Welfare Package is implemented then LOA stops because the welfare package provides papers, telephone connectivity (not free), internet access, television etc.
IE is not payable because Field Conditions have been declared, this means amongst other things food is free. The employers responsibility is to feed the troops, not to feed them and give them change left over for their own use. Field conditions equally apply if living under canvas on SPTA eating ORP.
Puma det is not at the Army locations for the simple reason of logistics, there is not enough bedspaces or hangarage. The flight safety call is always a valid point but is also becoming used far too often and not always appropriately.
As I said earlier, be careful of what you wish for. PAYD.

[Brain Potter]

Sloppy Link,

Okay I understand now, it's either IE, LOA or a welfare package - but only the latter 2 can apply in this case due to declaration of field conditions. I believe that those are the cold facts sought by pumaengineer.

I do think that all this "dry your eyes", "man-up" and "should've worked harder" stuff is naive and plays straight into the hands of those that wish to erode everyone's various entitlements on grounds of cost. It does seem rather strange that on-base at D-M is regarded as field conditions and it must seem to those involved that this declaration has been made on the basis of saving money.

[Sloppy Link]

A decision made on the basis of saving money. Please do not tell me you are surprised by this. The cheapest option is the welfare package so in some respects I suppose we should be grateful.

[Brain Potter]

No I'm not surprised but, if whoever took this decision could be pinned down, I would bet that cost is not the reason they would offer.

We have already seen a fair amount of the attitude that says "you've got better accommodation, so you can just grin and bear all other shaftings"

With such logic, the MoD could declare field conditions at Nellis for Red Flag or within 1 km of the Georgetown Suites and save few more quid.

[Irish Tempest]

Just to add confusion to the mix boys.

If you feel seen off why not contact the SP Pol branch via e-mail, the alternate being the particular chapter in questions' sponsor. More likely than not he is a civil serpent with little knowledge of how we now do business and could well be living in the dark ages. These guys are not infallible. From my own humble experience they will give you the rationale behind the decision and if you have a serious grievance its their responsibility to investigate and come back with a answer as to why the rule is that way - or maybe even change the policy!!!

The days of 'ours is not to question why but rather to do or die' are well gone. I once helped produce a JAP that I know a lot of you will be familiar with. No easy task. We questioned every old adage the forces had and rewrote the book cover to cover in order for it to work in a tri-Service dimension. I learnt never to accept the bolloeaux spouted quote ' we're doing it this way because we always have done'.

Forward with the revolution...:cool:

[philrigger]

;)

Irish Tempest

The days of 'ours is not to question why but rather to do or die' are well gone. I once helped produce a JAP that I know a lot of you will be familiar with. No easy task. We questioned every old adage the forces had and rewrote the book cover to cover in order for it to work in a tri-Service dimension. I learnt never to accept the bolloeaux spouted quote ' we're doing it this way because we always have done'.

I understand what you say, but did anyone ever question why the old APs contained what they did? Old 0rders were there because of lessons learned the hard way, sometimes with blood! The problem now is that with the passing of time, no one knows why the orders were there in the first place. That does not mean that the old orders are no longer valid.
The new JAPs that I have read seem to leave a lot to the judgement of people who have little or no experience. I fear that lessons are again to be learned the hard way.



'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[MrBernoulli]

I'm so glad I was in Multi-Engine Command .................

And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.

I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.

Y'all have fun now, y'hear? :ok:

[jonsface]

Does anybody know where to find out what is regarded as "field conditions".
Can they just be "declared" or are there set procedures or guidelines in place that need to be satisfied in order to deam a detachment as "field conditions"?

A JSP ref would be appreciated, if you know of it.;)

[Irish Tempest]

Philrigger

Appreciate where you are coming from wrt lessons learned (sorry identified) - However the JAP was essential with the amount of 'Joint' ways of working. The main driver being JFH. It was simple the RAF would only do something if the book said so, the RN did anything as long the book told you not to and the Army... well they were just glad someone had a serious look at the way they were doing business.

When we examined issues we found a lot of legacy things from the Cold War era (and WW2) when we all carried nooks and everything was ultra safe. E.g. why do we bond our VC-10's, Tristars and other transport aircraft when the Easyjet 737 at Stansted doesn't (standfast refueling)? Warrants asking? An aircraft becomes 'neutral' 1.5 seconds after touching down through the wheels). Why can any RN pilot use a 5M when authorised when his oppos in the RAF can't - only after they have had a laying on of hands by the Station Cdr and become a 'Test Pilot'... blatantly wrong. (but used a means of promotion within RAF Flying Club circles) - I was told that by a snr aircrew officer.

We (you may say unfortunately) are in the realms of empowerment, and as long as the person is suitable trained, qualified and experienced, why not?

The aircrew JSP 550 series (was... and I suspect still is a bit of a cluster due to lack if effort on the part of DASC to co-ord) - personal opinion.

IT

[target my HMD]

Having been on a few of the Crimson Eagle (CE) exercises (the exercise which is in question) I can relate to the question “of what are you entitled to?”

But there is a however!

Being entitled to LSA and LOA for the exercise gives you an allowance, “too have a bit of the good life on the DET”. No one says that you must go down town every night or eat in the best restaurants (got the taxi ride down to 15 dollars from the main gate at DMAB to 6th with a pick up guaranteed and had a good time) the accommodation was good, and to nurse the hangover the next day the base offered lots of escape choices – the immaculate golf club for one.

Another thing in the favour! Is the forces exchange rate of around 2 to 1 for the dollar, again you are on a win - win situation. So anything you buy is better than you would get as a mere tourist. Oh and by the way isn’t everything on base American tax exempt?

It was very tempting to go of on one and start ranting about – how the majority of the Puma DET got to the exercise! / Oh we are so precious!! , flying BA ect, but I think that will be saved for a personnel interview with the JHC Comd on return.

The training that CE offers to Aircrew / Ground Crew / and foot soldiers alike is second to none. My only fear is that this exercise will be folded due to expense. In the light of every penny counts does mean exactly that.

If you get a chance to train on CE for the WAR as apposed to a WAR please come along and see the best training you will ever receive.

I think the question of IA was answered. However dull the “fast jet” job was - may be you are better suited to a..... “but I am entitled to…… :mad:

[Once A Brat]

So many points have been made that I could reply to, but most of my comments would probably be taken in the vein that they were meant and cause friction so I'll stick to pumaengineer's original point........

I have been on a fast jet sqn detached to DM, on one occasion we recieved 'on-base' rates of about $7 a day because the mess was open and on another we recieved the normal USA city rate of $50 a day because it had been shut down by health and safety!! My first point? Don't compare your det to a previous det, whether by your sqn or another, to the same location because things change!

As it happens, I was on a similar det years ago at Cherry Point, where we stayed in the Holiday Inn, but were bused onto camp to eat at the MCSU and since we were a Germany Sqn, no money not even LOA (German LOA was better anyway and we kept that). BUT at least we were not in tents on the airfield like the C130 boys. My second point, make the best of what you've got and enjoy your proximity to the Uni district in Tucson! Failing that try "Cow Pony" on a Sunday, if its still open.

[pumaengineer]

***UPDATE***
Just thought I would give an update to the story. Since our return last year a brave airman took it upon himself to buck the trend of putting up and shutting up and not "Dry your eyes sweetheart, if you don't have a sense of humour......http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif" as suggested by Dirty Sanchez and challenged the field conditions ruling. He redressed Cdr JHC...and won!!

So we are now allowed to claim IE for each day, our LOA becomes full rate, and eventually we will get our missed meal allowances.

My point is that if he had read this thread the advice would be to just get on with it. Fair play to him to have the bottle to go right to the top (why didn't I do it? Because I might have a career left!) So after being challenged, someone looked at the whole situation and decided that the penny pinching methods employed were incorrect and are now making ammends.

The vast majority on this board are of the mentality that SH, groundcrew, non FJ are there to do the menial non headlline grabbing jobs and should not be seen or heard. To you I ask that you consider the description of the Military Aircrew Forum. And try to think outside your box with the very narrow field of view!!!

To the few that offered words of assistance and encouragement I applaud you. :DIf there were more of you this board would be a much more pleasant experience:ok:

[matkat]

Well done that Man for never taking no for an answer.:D

[Airborne Aircrew]

If there were more of you this board would be a much more pleasant experiencePoofter! :E

[VARIABLE_KNIFE]

Would this be the same young man who is now having to pay back money as he would have been better off, in real-financial terms, if he had just of gotten on with it?

Will have to re-read the Admirals response next week to get the specifics.

:rolleyes:

[Sloppy Link]

This will be fun to watch, by my reckoning at any one time there are about 250 personnel per day on CE. There has been CE06, CE07, CE08a, CE08b and CE09 is now on. Each det is about 8 weeks long or so lets call it 60 days for ease of maths.......CEx5x60x250x£10IE alone = £750,000 of which £1,800 is owed to me! Then there is the difference between Ex rates of LoA and Temporary Duty Rates to add to the confusion coupled with changes in the rates and the FFR.

Of course JHC will ensure that all are treated equally and track down those personnel (an easy task now we have a centralised computer system that can search for this data at the press of a button) that are owed money as the rules have been interpreted differently.

Oh sorry, there I was in my parrallel universe again where Joint means that, opposed to this universe where Joint only applies when it suits.

Hurrumph. It will all change when I am Comd JHC

[philrigger]

;)

Well done that man !

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI barr.'

[nice castle]

Mr B said... "I'm so glad I was in Multi-Engine Command .................

And I'm even gladder that I am no longer in Multi-Engine Command.

I now get an air-conditioned room all to myself, with a bath and shower, and mini bar and porcelain crapper and internet connection et-bloody-cetera.

Y'all have fun now, y'hear? :ok:"

Can't help noticing old chap that 'mates' don't feature highly in your list of above goodies; is that why you're still clinging onto a bit of cyber-esprit de corps on this forum, ha-ha!;)

Sorry if this interrupted you while you were trying to bang one out thinking of the hosties....:}

Still, you've always got a nice set of black windscreens to stare out of for 11 hours tomorrow night, havent you?

Y'all have fun too, bud:ok:

[KeepItTidy]

Yeah with the removal of any expenses we have found people just dont wish to take advantage of courses and even dets its easier to say no than go and spend months sorting out wages through JPA.

They have done well to remove all good from travelling in the Military now and its just another nail in the ever leaving thousands who cant be arsed. We were promised travel sport all the good things about Military life and only travel is to the desert, sport no chance as there is no manpower to cover , expeds deffo no chance as the squadron has not enough cover and crappy dets where you have to buy your own food.

KIT steps of soapbox ....